Re: [FFmpeg-user] Top-posting (was Re: I found the bugs)

[Binarus]

On 16.06.2024 15:56, Carl Zwanzig wrote:

On 6/16/2024 2:33 AM, Binarus wrote:
to solve your problem. 


... for the same reasons that annoy you 


However, your behavior ... Do you really ...to communicate with you 



I strongly advise you to


- You do not have 


etc

We only find out who "you" might be until we read down through 50+ lines of 
message.

Top posting is only useful if the new material stands alone, at which point any 
quoting is extraneous and ought to have been removed.

Just don't do it (top post).


You're right, and normally, I don't do it (it's not only inappropriate in mailing lists, 
but also in "normal" one-to-one conversations).

However, in this case I thought it would be OK because my post was not meant as 
a direct reply to another post, but rather as a general statement about a dozen 
of other posts that are scattered over this thread. As such, for being totally 
correct, I should have copied citations from every of those posts at the top of 
my post before giving my 2 cents, and should have remove the quoted part 
completely. At the time of writing, I couldn't see enough benefit to do that.

Valuable lesson learned: I'll just shut up in the future if I can't contribute 
at the technical level. My post obviously effected quite the opposite of what I 
have intended anyway. When focusing purely on the technical discussion, 
adhering to posting rules is easier :-)

Too sad that a known troll has got me. When reading his first posts, I got the 
impression that he knows what he's talking about. Sorry for feeding him.

Best regards,

Binarus



z!

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Re: [FFmpeg-user] Top-posting (was Re: I found the bugs)

[Bouke / edit 'B]

> On 17 Jun 2024, at 08:26, Binarus  wrote:
> 
> On 16.06.2024 15:58, Bouke / edit 'B wrote:
>> Do not feed trolls.
> 
> Do you mean me?

Of course not!


> 
> Then please show where you think I have behaved like a troll. Since I have 
> begun using the internet three decades ago, I always have tried to behave as 
> polite and honestly as possible, and while surely not every of my posts was a 
> masterpiece, I never have trolled.
> 
>>> On 16 Jun 2024, at 15:56, Carl Zwanzig  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 6/16/2024 2:33 AM, Binarus wrote:
 to solve your problem.
>>> 
 ... for the same reasons that annoy you
>>> 
 However, your behavior ... Do you really ...to communicate with you
>>> 
 I strongly advise you to
>>> 
 - You do not have
>>> 
>>> etc
>>> 
>>> We only find out who "you" might be until we read down through 50+ lines of 
>>> message.
>>> 
>>> Top posting is only useful if the new material stands alone, at which point 
>>> any quoting is extraneous and ought to have been removed.
>>> 
>>> Just don't do it (top post).
>>> 
>>> z!
>>> 
>>> ___
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] Top-posting (was Re: I found the bugs)

[Binarus]

On 16.06.2024 15:58, Bouke / edit 'B wrote:

Do not feed trolls.


Do you mean me?

Then please show where you think I have behaved like a troll. Since I have 
begun using the internet three decades ago, I always have tried to behave as 
polite and honestly as possible, and while surely not every of my posts was a 
masterpiece, I never have trolled.





On 16 Jun 2024, at 15:56, Carl Zwanzig  wrote:

On 6/16/2024 2:33 AM, Binarus wrote:

to solve your problem.



... for the same reasons that annoy you



However, your behavior ... Do you really ...to communicate with you



I strongly advise you to



- You do not have


etc

We only find out who "you" might be until we read down through 50+ lines of 
message.

Top posting is only useful if the new material stands alone, at which point any 
quoting is extraneous and ought to have been removed.

Just don't do it (top post).

z!

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Re: [FFmpeg-user] Top-posting (was Re: I found the bugs)

[Carl Zwanzig]

On 6/16/2024 7:02 AM, Bouke / edit 'B wrote:

You are feeding a thread that should not exist, so you, z!, are also feeding 
trolls.


A thread that -I- created for a real problem, along with a reason why 
isn't a problam and with a solution. Deal with it.



  Stop, just stop.


Please do.

And stop top-posting.

z!

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Re: [FFmpeg-user] Top-posting (was Re: I found the bugs)

[Bouke / edit 'B]

You are feeding a thread that should not exist, so you, z!, are also feeding 
trolls.
 Stop, just stop.

> On 16 Jun 2024, at 16:00, Carl Zwanzig  wrote:
> 
> On 6/16/2024 6:58 AM, Bouke / edit 'B wrote:
>> Do not feed trolls.
> 
> How is calling out the use of top posting "feeding the trolls"?
> 
> (It isn't.)
> 
> z!
> 
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] Top-posting (was Re: I found the bugs)

[Carl Zwanzig]

On 6/16/2024 6:58 AM, Bouke / edit 'B wrote:

Do not feed trolls.


How is calling out the use of top posting "feeding the trolls"?

(It isn't.)

z!

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Re: [FFmpeg-user] Top-posting (was Re: I found the bugs)

[Bouke / edit 'B]

Do not feed trolls.


> On 16 Jun 2024, at 15:56, Carl Zwanzig  wrote:
> 
> On 6/16/2024 2:33 AM, Binarus wrote:
>> to solve your problem. 
> 
>> ... for the same reasons that annoy you  
> 
>> However, your behavior ... Do you really ...to communicate with you  
> 
>> I strongly advise you to
> 
>> - You do not have 
> 
> etc
> 
> We only find out who "you" might be until we read down through 50+ lines of 
> message.
> 
> Top posting is only useful if the new material stands alone, at which point 
> any quoting is extraneous and ought to have been removed.
> 
> Just don't do it (top post).
> 
> z!
> 
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[FFmpeg-user] Top-posting (was Re: I found the bugs)

[Carl Zwanzig]

On 6/16/2024 2:33 AM, Binarus wrote:
to solve your problem. 


... for the same reasons that annoy you  


However, your behavior ... Do you really 
...to communicate with you  



I strongly advise you to


- You do not have 


etc

We only find out who "you" might be until we read down through 50+ lines 
of message.


Top posting is only useful if the new material stands alone, at which 
point any quoting is extraneous and ought to have been removed.


Just don't do it (top post).

z!

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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting

[Erik Dobák]

On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 at 20:25, Carl Zwanzig  wrote:

> On 8/13/2019 10:56 AM, Erik Dobák wrote:
> > yes it is the Google Mails Web GUI fault.  when you reply on a mail you
> see
> > just blank space and you do no know if the message goes above or below
> the
> > original email text.
>
> You should see three dots at the bottom of the composition window, click
> on
> them; that will expand the quoted part.
>
> > i have searched now the settings but there is nothing
> > regarding top/bottom posting.
>
> You won't find one, google considers this a positive "feature".
>
>
> Most real email clients, such as Thunderbird/Evolution/kmail, will work
> with
> google by using imap. IMHO much better than the web interface.
>
> Later,
>
> z!
>
> well fck the 3 dots. google is hiding basic email functionality from me.
the GUI changes last 10 years are going towards bad and worse. that is what
you get when you use AI to determine what people need.
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting

[Ted Park]

> On Aug 13, 2019, at 2:24 PM, Carl Zwanzig  wrote:
> 
> On 8/13/2019 10:56 AM, Erik Dobák wrote:
>> yes it is the Google Mails Web GUI fault.  when you reply on a mail you see
>> just blank space and you do no know if the message goes above or below the
>> original email text. 
> 
> You should see three dots at the bottom of the composition window, click on 
> them; that will expand the quoted part.
> 
>> i have searched now the settings but there is nothing
>> regarding top/bottom posting.
> 
> You won't find one, google considers this a positive "feature".
> 
> 
> Most real email clients, such as Thunderbird/Evolution/kmail, will work with 
> google by using imap. IMHO much better than the web interface.
> 
> Later,
> 
> z!

Largely irrelevant today, but has anyone ever emailed with 2G phones (before 
edge)?? Like the ones you have to press 9 four times to type z? I didnt mind 
“top-posting” then :P

Only ever learned what it was when I joined a mailing list, instead of using 
forum-style web interfaces to them.

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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting

[Carl Zwanzig]

On 8/13/2019 10:56 AM, Erik Dobák wrote:

yes it is the Google Mails Web GUI fault.  when you reply on a mail you see
just blank space and you do no know if the message goes above or below the
original email text. 


You should see three dots at the bottom of the composition window, click on 
them; that will expand the quoted part.



i have searched now the settings but there is nothing
regarding top/bottom posting.


You won't find one, google considers this a positive "feature".


Most real email clients, such as Thunderbird/Evolution/kmail, will work with 
google by using imap. IMHO much better than the web interface.


Later,

z!
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting

[Kieran O Leary]

On Tue, 13 Aug 2019, 14:51 Ulf Zibis,  wrote:

>
> Am 13.08.19 um 14:22 schrieb Carl Eugen Hoyos:
> > If you don't care about top-posting, it is easy to do it wrong with
> > the Gmail web gui. Once you typed "top-posting" into the search
> > bar of your mail browser, you get both an English and (at least
> > with a German default) a local language explanation for what it
> > is. Then it cannot be so difficult to press the only symbol in
> > Gmail's reply field.
>
> Who uses web gui? In my experience kids and girls, but not "power
> users". ;-) Please don't feel offended, but it is at least for me
> unlikely to benefit from this and even more I evade this "Big-brother-is
> watching-you"-service, alias Google.
>
"Kids and girls"? What the hell?

-Kieran.
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting

[Erik Dobák]

On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 at 14:35, Ulf Zibis  wrote:

>
> Am 13.08.19 um 14:23 schrieb Carl Eugen Hoyos:
> > I (still) believe it is impossible not to find it assuming you
> > searched for an explanation.
> > (Assuming a German browser default)
> But it is very likely, that people interpret it as "Do not post a new
> question *on top* of an existing post/thread", and see no requirement
> for further research, as this understanding is a very common subject in
> mailing lists.
>
> -Ulf
>
>
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yes it is the Google Mails Web GUI fault.  when you reply on a mail you see
just blank space and you do no know if the message goes above or below the
original email text. i have searched now the settings but there is nothing
regarding top/bottom posting.

Ad google spies on you: Well Echelon reads all the emails including your
gmx. but yes gmail sucks regarding the GUI they change it all the time.
maybe i should switch...
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting

[Reindl Harald]

Am 13.08.19 um 16:54 schrieb Carl Zwanzig:
> Reindl is being polite and helpful as usual.

sorry, but given the amount of bullshit and that common sense should be
enough to understand what "top" and "posting" means and if not one
should refrain from post at all


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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting

[Carl Zwanzig]

On 8/13/2019 5:23 AM, Carl Eugen Hoyos wrote:

I (still) believe it is impossible not to find it assuming you
searched for an explanation.
(Assuming a German browser default)


And given that this is an English-language list, where there is confusion 
the terms ought to be interpreted in English. Yes, it appears that English 
isn't the native language of many readers, and it's natural to research in 
that language and then translate the concepts. Sometimes that works.



I'm not sure why "top-posting" is a tough concept for many people, "put your 
reply below what you're replying to" should be fairly clear.



AFAICT bottom posting* is easy in most email clients if you want to, 
including the gmail web UI and the android email UI (but there are much 
better email clients for android).


*which does -not-, and never has AFAIK mean including the entire message 
being replied to- at least remove all the footers.



Reindl is being polite and helpful as usual.


I've been on the 'net for over 30 years and I've never heard "top posting 
means putting a new question over an old one", but it's a bad idea anyway.


Later,

z!
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting

[Reindl Harald]

Am 13.08.19 um 14:57 schrieb Ulf Zibis:
> 
> Am 13.08.19 um 14:03 schrieb Moritz Barsnick:
>>
>> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOFU
> And in fact it describes the opposite of what you want:
> 
> "Das Akronym  steht für *Text
> oben, Fullquote  unten*, bzw.
> *Text Over, Fullquote Under*: Die E-Mail
>  beginnt mit der Antwort
> /(Top-Posting)/, darunter folgt im Text eine /vollständige/ Kopie der
> zitierten E-Mail einschließlich Kopfdaten
>  und Signatur
> ."

and?

it explains was top-posting is and when one tells you not to do
soemthing you need to understand what it is to avoid it!
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting

[Reindl Harald]

Am 13.08.19 um 15:50 schrieb Ulf Zibis:
> 
> Am 13.08.19 um 14:22 schrieb Carl Eugen Hoyos:
>> If you don't care about top-posting, it is easy to do it wrong with
>> the Gmail web gui. Once you typed "top-posting" into the search
>> bar of your mail browser, you get both an English and (at least
>> with a German default) a local language explanation for what it
>> is. Then it cannot be so difficult to press the only symbol in
>> Gmail's reply field.
> 
> Who uses web gui? In my experience kids and girls, but not "power
> users". ;-) Please don't feel offended, but it is at least for me
> unlikely to benefit from this and even more I evade this "Big-brother-is
> watching-you"-service, alias Google.

luckily you are the only posting here, aren't you?
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting

[Ulf Zibis]

Am 13.08.19 um 14:22 schrieb Carl Eugen Hoyos:
> If you don't care about top-posting, it is easy to do it wrong with
> the Gmail web gui. Once you typed "top-posting" into the search
> bar of your mail browser, you get both an English and (at least
> with a German default) a local language explanation for what it
> is. Then it cannot be so difficult to press the only symbol in
> Gmail's reply field.

Who uses web gui? In my experience kids and girls, but not "power
users". ;-) Please don't feel offended, but it is at least for me
unlikely to benefit from this and even more I evade this "Big-brother-is
watching-you"-service, alias Google.

-Ulf

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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting – was: coding video for some old Sony

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1



On Tuesday, 2019-08-13 at 15:31 +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:


Am 13.08.19 um 14:54 schrieb Ulf Zibis:

Am 13.08.19 um 14:27 schrieb Reindl Harald:


nonsense


Yeah, good to know, that we have even one who posts sense!


Yeah, good to know, that we have even one who quotes in a way to supress
context otherwise

the stunt interpret "In top-posting style the original message is
included verbatim, with the reply above it" as " My first understanding
was: "Do not post a new question on top of an existing post/therad" is
hilarious


To people that already know what the term means. Not to people that see it 
for the first time and try to guess what it means and can guess wrong.


- -- 
Cheers,

   Carlos E. R.
   (from openSUSE 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)

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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting – was: coding video for some old Sony

[Reindl Harald]

Am 13.08.19 um 14:54 schrieb Ulf Zibis:
> Am 13.08.19 um 14:27 schrieb Reindl Harald:
>>
>> nonsense
> 
> Yeah, good to know, that we have even one who posts sense!

Yeah, good to know, that we have even one who quotes in a way to supress
context otherwise

the stunt interpret "In top-posting style the original message is
included verbatim, with the reply above it" as " My first understanding
was: "Do not post a new question on top of an existing post/therad" is
hilarious



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Top-posting

My first understanding was: "Do not post a new question on top of an
existing post/therad"
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting

[Marc Roos]

 
Is there not a separate mailing list for discussing this? ;)


-Original Message-
From: Ulf Zibis [mailto:ulf.zi...@gmx.de] 
Sent: dinsdag 13 augustus 2019 14:58
To: ffmpeg-user@ffmpeg.org
Subject: Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting


Am 13.08.19 um 14:03 schrieb Moritz Barsnick:
>
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOFU
And in fact it describes the opposite of what you want:

"Das Akronym 
<https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akronym> steht für *Text oben, Fullquote 
<https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fullquote> unten*, bzw.
*Text Over, Fullquote Under*: Die E-Mail 
<https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Mail> beginnt mit der Antwort /(Top-Posting)/, 
darunter folgt im Text eine /vollständige/ Kopie der zitierten E-Mail 
einschließlich Kopfdaten <https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopfdaten> 
und Signatur <https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signature>."

-Ulf

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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting

[Ulf Zibis]

Am 13.08.19 um 14:03 schrieb Moritz Barsnick:
>
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOFU
And in fact it describes the opposite of what you want:

"Das Akronym  steht für *Text
oben, Fullquote  unten*, bzw.
*Text Over, Fullquote Under*: Die E-Mail
 beginnt mit der Antwort
/(Top-Posting)/, darunter folgt im Text eine /vollständige/ Kopie der
zitierten E-Mail einschließlich Kopfdaten
 und Signatur
."

-Ulf

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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting – was: coding video for some old Sony

[Ulf Zibis]

Am 13.08.19 um 14:27 schrieb Reindl Harald:
>
> nonsense

Yeah, good to know, that we have even one who posts sense!

-Ulf

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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting

[Ulf Zibis]

Am 13.08.19 um 14:24 schrieb Carl Eugen Hoyos:
>> I mean, that there is no language site linked on
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
> How did you find out about this site?

I exceptionally directly searched in the english Wikipedia after many
admonitions from you, not doing the right thing.

I let it up to you, if you like to repeat them endless without reaction. ;-)

-Ulf


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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting

[Ulf Zibis]

Am 13.08.19 um 14:23 schrieb Carl Eugen Hoyos:
> I (still) believe it is impossible not to find it assuming you
> searched for an explanation.
> (Assuming a German browser default)
But it is very likely, that people interpret it as "Do not post a new
question *on top* of an existing post/thread", and see no requirement
for further research, as this understanding is a very common subject in
mailing lists.

-Ulf


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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1



On Tuesday, 2019-08-13 at 14:23 +0200, Carl Eugen Hoyos wrote:

Am Di., 13. Aug. 2019 um 14:21 Uhr schrieb Carlos E. R. <>:




But what it says is not all correct. Also, neither Spanish or German
articles link to the English article, and the English article does not
have links to any other language, which is perhaps why Ulf Zibis did not
find the German article.


I (still) believe it is impossible not to find it assuming you
searched for an explanation.
(Assuming a German browser default)


I always click on the link to other language on the article. I basically 
never search again in the other language, becausue I assume that if the 
link does not exist, the article does not exist. I see now this is not 
always the case, but it is what I do.


- -- 
Cheers,

   Carlos E. R.
   (from openSUSE 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)

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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting – was: coding video for some old Sony

[Reindl Harald]

Am 13.08.19 um 13:39 schrieb Ulf Zibis:
> 
> Am 13.08.19 um 12:00 schrieb Carl Eugen Hoyos:
>> Please find out what top-posting means and avoid it here.
> As I too needed some time to understand, what you mean by this, here is
> the explanation:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Top-posting
> 
> My first understanding was: "Do not post a new question on top of an
> existing post/therad"

nonsense

> So please give a little more help on that term. Not all people here are
> native speakers and searching this term on non-english web results in
> irritation often. In German Wikipedia e. g. there are no equivalents.
how many time do *you* need?

top-posting and thread-hijacking have nothing in common except that you
can combine them
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting

[Carl Eugen Hoyos]

Am Di., 13. Aug. 2019 um 14:21 Uhr schrieb Carlos E. R.
:

> 
>
> But what it says is not all correct. Also, neither Spanish or German
> articles link to the English article, and the English article does not
> have links to any other language, which is perhaps why Ulf Zibis did not
> find the German article.

I (still) believe it is impossible not to find it assuming you
searched for an explanation.
(Assuming a German browser default)

Carl Eugen
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting – was: coding video for some old Sony

[Carl Eugen Hoyos]

Am Di., 13. Aug. 2019 um 14:11 Uhr schrieb Ulf Zibis :
>
>
> Am 13.08.19 um 14:03 schrieb Carl Eugen Hoyos:
> > Am Di., 13. Aug. 2019 um 13:39 Uhr schrieb Ulf Zibis :
> >> In German Wikipedia e. g. there are no equivalents.
> > That's not true.
> I mean, that there is no language site linked on
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style

How did you find out about this site?

Carl Eugen
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting

[Carl Eugen Hoyos]

Am Di., 13. Aug. 2019 um 14:12 Uhr schrieb Moritz Barsnick :
>
> On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 14:04:34 +0200, Carl Eugen Hoyos wrote:
> > Am Di., 13. Aug. 2019 um 14:03 Uhr schrieb Moritz Barsnick 
> > :
> > > *We* should also understand that, AFAIK, Gmail web GUI users have no
> > > clue that they're doing that, as it hides the quote from them. (So I
> > > have often heard.)
> >
> > I use Gmail web GUI...
>
> Sorry, I tend to over-generalize. ;-)
>
> (But: Those who don't have a clue what we mean when hinting at their
> quoting style often have gmail addresses, and no other obvious
> User-Agent header. But I don't have numbers on this.)

If you don't care about top-posting, it is easy to do it wrong with
the Gmail web gui. Once you typed "top-posting" into the search
bar of your mail browser, you get both an English and (at least
with a German default) a local language explanation for what it
is. Then it cannot be so difficult to press the only symbol in
Gmail's reply field.

There is also https://ffmpeg.org/mailing-list-faq.html linked from
https://ffmpeg.org/mailman/listinfo/ffmpeg-user

Carl Eugen
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1



On Tuesday, 2019-08-13 at 14:03 +0200, Moritz Barsnick wrote:


On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 13:39:37 +0200, Ulf Zibis wrote:

So please give a little more help on that term.


While I agree, it is easy to google.

*We* should also understand that, AFAIK, Gmail web GUI users have no
clue that they're doing that, as it hides the quote from them. (So I
have often heard.)


I don't know about the web, but it is certainly true on the Android gmail 
app. The quoted material is hidden beneath three dots. Tapping on them 
they can be expanded or deleted entirely. There may be other mail clients 
that also hide them from view.





irritation often. In German Wikipedia e. g. there are no equivalents.


https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOFU


On several languages, the article is named "Top-posting". Example:



But what it says is not all correct. Also, neither Spanish or German 
articles link to the English article, and the English article does not 
have links to any other language, which is perhaps why Ulf Zibis did not 
find the German article.


- -- 
Cheers,

   Carlos E. R.
   (from openSUSE 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)

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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting

[Ulf Zibis]

Am 13.08.19 um 14:03 schrieb Moritz Barsnick:
> *We* should also understand that, AFAIK, Gmail web GUI users have no
> clue that they're doing that, as it hides the quote from them. (So I
> have often heard.)

Yes, you do need not to *understand* why people are irritated and
interpret it wrong, as I did long time, just *note* it.

-Ulf

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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting

[Moritz Barsnick]

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 14:04:34 +0200, Carl Eugen Hoyos wrote:
> Am Di., 13. Aug. 2019 um 14:03 Uhr schrieb Moritz Barsnick :
> > *We* should also understand that, AFAIK, Gmail web GUI users have no
> > clue that they're doing that, as it hides the quote from them. (So I
> > have often heard.)
>
> I use Gmail web GUI...

Sorry, I tend to over-generalize. ;-)

(But: Those who don't have a clue what we mean when hinting at their
quoting style often have gmail addresses, and no other obvious
User-Agent header. But I don't have numbers on this.)

Moritz
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting – was: coding video for some old Sony

[Ulf Zibis]

Am 13.08.19 um 14:03 schrieb Carl Eugen Hoyos:
> Am Di., 13. Aug. 2019 um 13:39 Uhr schrieb Ulf Zibis :
>> In German Wikipedia e. g. there are no equivalents.
> That's not true.
I mean, that there is no language site linked on

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style

-Ulf

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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting

[Carl Eugen Hoyos]

Am Di., 13. Aug. 2019 um 14:03 Uhr schrieb Moritz Barsnick :

> *We* should also understand that, AFAIK, Gmail web GUI users have no
> clue that they're doing that, as it hides the quote from them. (So I
> have often heard.)

I use Gmail web GUI...

Carl Eugen
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting – was: coding video for some old Sony

[Carl Eugen Hoyos]

Am Di., 13. Aug. 2019 um 13:39 Uhr schrieb Ulf Zibis :
>
> In German Wikipedia e. g. there are no equivalents.

That's not true.

Carl Eugen
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting

[Moritz Barsnick]

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 13:39:37 +0200, Ulf Zibis wrote:
> So please give a little more help on that term.

While I agree, it is easy to google.

*We* should also understand that, AFAIK, Gmail web GUI users have no
clue that they're doing that, as it hides the quote from them. (So I
have often heard.)

> irritation often. In German Wikipedia e. g. there are no equivalents.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOFU

Gruß,
Moritz
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting – was: coding video for some old Sony

[Erik Dobák]

On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 at 13:39, Ulf Zibis  wrote:

>
> Am 13.08.19 um 12:00 schrieb Carl Eugen Hoyos:
> > Please find out what top-posting means and avoid it here.
> As I too needed some time to understand, what you mean by this, here is
> the explanation:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Top-posting
>
> My first understanding was: "Do not post a new question on top of an
> existing post/therad"
>
> So please give a little more help on that term. Not all people here are
> native speakers and searching this term on non-english web results in
> irritation often. In German Wikipedia e. g. there are no equivalents.
>
> -Ulf
>
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Thank you Ulf, now i know what is top-posting.
E
ps: did not know that there are top-posting rasists at ffmpeg :P
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting – was: coding video for some old Sony

[Ulf Zibis]

Am 13.08.19 um 12:00 schrieb Carl Eugen Hoyos:
> Please find out what top-posting means and avoid it here.
As I too needed some time to understand, what you mean by this, here is
the explanation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Top-posting

My first understanding was: "Do not post a new question on top of an
existing post/therad"

So please give a little more help on that term. Not all people here are
native speakers and searching this term on non-english web results in
irritation often. In German Wikipedia e. g. there are no equivalents.

-Ulf

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Re: [FFmpeg-user] Top posting?

[Carl Eugen Hoyos]

2018-07-25 18:57 GMT+02:00, Jim DeLaHunt :
> On 2018-07-25 08:11, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
>
>  > I'm not the list owner nor one of the ffmpeg developers, just a
> long-time Internet user...
>
> I also am not the list owner, nor one of the ffmpeg developers, either.
> I appreciate the effort which you, Carl, and the core developers, put
> into replying to queries on this list. But I have some advice for you
> and them.
>
> On 2018-07-25 08:11, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
>> It's long-standing practice that this list asks a few things of
>> members- one is that members don't "top post" their replies. This
>> means to put your comments _below_ those you're commenting on-
>>
>> what someoene else said
>> my reply
>>
>> not-
>> my reply
>> what someone else said
>>
>> (Removing extraneous lines to trim the message is also helpful.)
>
> It's great that you have explained this time what you mean by "top
> posting". This is what it takes to make it clear to new list participants.
>
> But that's not how I see frequent participants and core developers
> usually communicate the "do not top post" message. The most common way I
> see this communicated to new list participants is as a cryptic
> afterthought tacked on to another answer.
>
> e.g.
>  > ... are the maximum bitrate reported by the stream.
>  >
>  > Please do not top-post here, 
>
> or:
>  > ...you want into ffmpeg; that's what I would do.
>  >
>  > (please don't top-post on this list)
>
> My personal experience getting this rebuke is that a) it was not at all
> clear what they meant by "top posting", b) it was not clear that "top
> posting" is a phrase which has meaning on the Net at large, and that I
> could search for, and c) it didn't tell me what I _should_ do.
>
>  >  A further explanation of "top posting" will be found in google or
> your favorite search engine .
>
> Be wary of sending people to search. You have no control over what they
> will find. And the top response I get from my search,
> , is long and descriptive.

Which is good!

> It does not send a strong message of "use excerpting and bottom posting".
>
> What would be better, I believe, is a slightly clearer message, which
> points to a URL with fuller instructions. For instance, try this:
>
>  > In your message, you "top-posted" your reply. In this list we want
> you to "excerpt and bottom-post" instead. See
>  >
> 
> for an explanation. Thank you!
>
> Maybe frequent responders to this list might want to put this text into
> a personal FAQ file, and then copy it and paste it into your replies
> when needed.

No, I don't want to maintain a personal FAQ file, and footers
are highly discouraged here, especially long ones such as
yours.

> That will save you from having to look up the URL every
> time you want to correct someone.
>
> Does everyone know that the FFMpeg website already has this URL, and the
> beginnings of an explanation?  There is an fragment, with an example, at
> .
>
> I can think of a lot of ways to improve that text. You can rewrite it to
> centre on what you _want_, not what you _don't_ want. You can improve
> the example: write an excerpt and put it in the answer, instead of
> linking to an message in the archives. You can add a companion negative
> example, to make it clear how a participant can go from the wrong way to
> the right way.

So instead of trying to reproduce issues, understanding them,
opening bug reports or fix issues right away or giving common
work-arounds you suggest to explain top-posting, something
that the first Google hit explains very well?
I don't think this is a smart suggestion.

Carl Eugen
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] Top posting?

[Jim DeLaHunt]

On 2018-07-25 08:11, Carl Zwanzig wrote:

> I'm not the list owner nor one of the ffmpeg developers, just a 
long-time Internet user...


I also am not the list owner, nor one of the ffmpeg developers, either. 
I appreciate the effort which you, Carl, and the core developers, put 
into replying to queries on this list. But I have some advice for you 
and them.


On 2018-07-25 08:11, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
It's long-standing practice that this list asks a few things of 
members- one is that members don't "top post" their replies. This 
means to put your comments _below_ those you're commenting on-


what someoene else said
my reply

not-
my reply
what someone else said

(Removing extraneous lines to trim the message is also helpful.) 


It's great that you have explained this time what you mean by "top 
posting". This is what it takes to make it clear to new list participants.


But that's not how I see frequent participants and core developers 
usually communicate the "do not top post" message. The most common way I 
see this communicated to new list participants is as a cryptic 
afterthought tacked on to another answer.


e.g.
> ... are the maximum bitrate reported by the stream.
>
> Please do not top-post here, 

or:
> ...you want into ffmpeg; that's what I would do.
>
> (please don't top-post on this list)

My personal experience getting this rebuke is that a) it was not at all 
clear what they meant by "top posting", b) it was not clear that "top 
posting" is a phrase which has meaning on the Net at large, and that I 
could search for, and c) it didn't tell me what I _should_ do.


>  A further explanation of "top posting" will be found in google or 
your favorite search engine .


Be wary of sending people to search. You have no control over what they 
will find. And the top response I get from my search, 
, is long and descriptive. 
It does not send a strong message of "use excerpting and bottom posting".


What would be better, I believe, is a slightly clearer message, which 
points to a URL with fuller instructions. For instance, try this:


> In your message, you "top-posted" your reply. In this list we want 
you to "excerpt and bottom-post" instead. See
> 
 
for an explanation. Thank you!


Maybe frequent responders to this list might want to put this text into 
a personal FAQ file, and then copy it and paste it into your replies 
when needed.  That will save you from having to look up the URL every 
time you want to correct someone.


Does everyone know that the FFMpeg website already has this URL, and the 
beginnings of an explanation?  There is an fragment, with an example, at 
.


I can think of a lot of ways to improve that text. You can rewrite it to 
centre on what you _want_, not what you _don't_ want. You can improve 
the example: write an excerpt and put it in the answer, instead of 
linking to an message in the archives. You can add a companion negative 
example, to make it clear how a participant can go from the wrong way to 
the right way.

Anyway, please don't do it.
If you really want to train new list participants to excerpt and 
bottom-post, then I believe that linking to that FAQ text, and improving 
that text, will pay dividends.


I hope this helps both the frequent responders and the new list 
participants.


--
--Jim DeLaHunt, j...@jdlh.com http://blog.jdlh.com/ (http://jdlh.com/)
  multilingual websites consultant

  355-1027 Davie St, Vancouver BC V6E 4L2, Canada
 Canada mobile +1-604-376-8953

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Re: [FFmpeg-user] Top posting?

[Phil Rhodes]

In my mail program, Claws, and in Thunderbird, it is easy to just

highlight the part of the mail you want to reply to then push the replybutton. 
This draws attention to the point you want to address and isconcise.


It's not that easy in some of the online mail clients (Yahoo doesn't seem to do 
anything at all for it.)
I'd love to see an assessment of how much of the traffic on this list is 
concerned with the issue of top-posting. The reality is that it isn't a very 
big deal and doens't matter very much, and I think that complaining about it 
says more about the complainer than anything else.
P   
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] Top posting?

[Dave Stevens]

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 08:36:49 -0700
Carl Zwanzig  wrote:

> Not sure what I should have done differently

In my mail program, Claws, and in Thunderbird, it is easy to just
highlight the part of the mail you want to reply to then push the reply
button. This draws attention to the point you want to address and is
concise.

Dave
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] Top posting?

[Carl Zwanzig]

On 7/25/2018 8:20 AM, Jonathan Mallett wrote:

Not sure what I should have done differently since it’s a new topic. I’ll
google it and keep it in mind for next time.
There is no top/bottom in an empty message :). OTOH it does help to remove 
all the stuff not relevant to the reply; that really improves readability.


Later,

z!

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Re: [FFmpeg-user] Top posting?

[Paul B Mahol]

On 7/25/18, Jonathan Mallett  wrote:
> Hi Z,
>
> Apologies, I was just following the steps on the mailing list page.
>

LOL, you just top posted here.

>> Once you subscribe you can post a message to the mailing list by emailing
>> your message to ffmpeg-user@ffmpeg.org.
>
> Not sure what I should have done differently since it's a new topic. I'll
> google it and keep it in mind for next time.
>
> Thanks,
> Jon
> On 25 Jul 2018, 16:12 +0100, Carl Zwanzig , wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I'm not the list owner nor one of the ffmpeg developers, just a long-time
>> Internet user...
>>
>> It's long-standing practice that this list asks a few things of members-
>> one
>> is that members don't "top post" their replies. This means to put your
>> comments _below_ those you're commenting on-
>>
>> what someoene else said
>> my reply
>>
>> not-
>> my reply
>> what someone else said
>>
>> (Removing extraneous lines to trim the message is also helpful.)
>>
>> A further explanation of "top posting" will be found in google or your
>> favorite search engine :).
>>
>> Anyway, please don't do it.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> z!
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] Top posting?

[Jonathan Mallett]

Hi Z,

Apologies, I was just following the steps on the mailing list page.

> Once you subscribe you can post a message to the mailing list by emailing 
> your message to ffmpeg-user@ffmpeg.org.

Not sure what I should have done differently since it’s a new topic. I’ll 
google it and keep it in mind for next time.

Thanks,
Jon
On 25 Jul 2018, 16:12 +0100, Carl Zwanzig , wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'm not the list owner nor one of the ffmpeg developers, just a long-time
> Internet user...
>
> It's long-standing practice that this list asks a few things of members- one
> is that members don't "top post" their replies. This means to put your
> comments _below_ those you're commenting on-
>
> what someoene else said
> my reply
>
> not-
> my reply
> what someone else said
>
> (Removing extraneous lines to trim the message is also helpful.)
>
> A further explanation of "top posting" will be found in google or your
> favorite search engine :).
>
> Anyway, please don't do it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> z!
> ___
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> ffmpeg-user@ffmpeg.org
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>
> To unsubscribe, visit link above, or email
> ffmpeg-user-requ...@ffmpeg.org with subject "unsubscribe".

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[FFmpeg-user] Top posting?

[Carl Zwanzig]

Hello,

I'm not the list owner nor one of the ffmpeg developers, just a long-time 
Internet user...


It's long-standing practice that this list asks a few things of members- one 
is that members don't "top post" their replies. This means to put your 
comments _below_ those you're commenting on-


what someoene else said
my reply

not-
my reply
what someone else said

(Removing extraneous lines to trim the message is also helpful.)

A further explanation of "top posting" will be found in google or your 
favorite search engine :).


Anyway, please don't do it.

Thanks,

z!
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Roman]

Hmm,  what a stir about simple question..
If I only knew...  I wouldn't stat this thread. Any way to close it or
delete it? Seems like pretty painful topic.
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Reindl Harald]

Am 04.02.2016 um 22:11 schrieb juan carlos Rebate:

and I'm the rude when your are insulting


what do you expect for ignorace and waste time by continue pretending 
proven wrong *b...t* instead learn to deal with your mail client?



2016-02-04 22:06 GMT+01:00 Jannes Faber :

On 4 Feb 2016 9:56 p.m., "juan carlos Rebate"  wrote:


gmail.com does not include options to write at the bottom


Click the fking three little dots!




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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[juan carlos Rebate]

and I'm the rude when your are insulting

2016-02-04 22:06 GMT+01:00 Jannes Faber :
> On 4 Feb 2016 9:56 p.m., "juan carlos Rebate"  wrote:
>>
>> gmail.com does not include options to write at the bottom
>
> Click the fking three little dots!
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Jannes Faber]

On 4 Feb 2016 9:56 p.m., "juan carlos Rebate"  wrote:
>
> gmail.com does not include options to write at the bottom

Click the fking three little dots!
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Reindl Harald]

Am 04.02.2016 um 21:56 schrieb juan carlos Rebate:

gmail.com does not include options to write at the bottom


and NO you should not reply at the bottom

* repy INLINE
* quote correctly
* strip un-needed quotes
* learn to use email



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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue - OFF TOPIC

[Matt Zagrabelny]

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 2:56 PM, juan carlos Rebate  wrote:
> gmail.com does not include options to write at the bottom,

Mine does. Click the little rectangle with three dots on it. Then you
can reply "inline", like I am doing right now.

-m
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Reindl Harald]

Am 04.02.2016 um 21:56 schrieb juan carlos Rebate:

gmail.com does not include options to write at the bottom


READ THIS WHOLE FUCKING THREAD AND STOP PRETEND THAT!

you are even too lazy/stupid to remove the list footer from your reply


Am 04.02.2016 um 21:37 schrieb juan carlos Rebate:


I am not rude, gmail-web does not allow me to publish on the bottom
and not use programs that do not like, no one can force me to use
something I'm not comfortable



proven in *this thread* you can properly write mail with gmail and if you
are not comfortable in doing so or just use a proper mail client where this
is no topic you are *ignorant*

top-posting *inside this thread* is simply asshole-behavior

gmail is your excuse?
tell that my thunderbird using my gmail account seamless!



2016-02-04 20:55 GMT+01:00 Paul B Mahol :


On 2/4/16, juan carlos Rebate  wrote:


if you think it's a waste of time does not respond, the sociedd
progresses, the services must engage the advance, the service is so
and we must tolerate, no one should tell anyone how they should do
things.



You are being rude, because you are top posting on this ML




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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[juan carlos Rebate]

gmail.com does not include options to write at the bottom, outlook if
you have this option, but this application is payment, evolution does
not have that option, thunderbird does not have this option, if you
have kmail but does not allow referencing the ancient text

2016-02-04 21:40 GMT+01:00 Reindl Harald :
>
>
> Am 04.02.2016 um 21:37 schrieb juan carlos Rebate:
>>
>> I am not rude, gmail-web does not allow me to publish on the bottom
>> and not use programs that do not like, no one can force me to use
>> something I'm not comfortable
>
>
> proven in *this thread* you can properly write mail with gmail and if you
> are not comfortable in doing so or just use a proper mail client where this
> is no topic you are *ignorant*
>
> top-posting *inside this thread* is simply asshole-behavior
>
> gmail is your excuse?
> tell that my thunderbird using my gmail account seamless!
>
>
>> 2016-02-04 20:55 GMT+01:00 Paul B Mahol :
>>>
>>> On 2/4/16, juan carlos Rebate  wrote:

 if you think it's a waste of time does not respond, the sociedd
 progresses, the services must engage the advance, the service is so
 and we must tolerate, no one should tell anyone how they should do
 things.
>>>
>>>
>>> You are being rude, because you are top posting on this ML
>
>
>
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Reindl Harald]

Am 04.02.2016 um 21:37 schrieb juan carlos Rebate:

I am not rude, gmail-web does not allow me to publish on the bottom
and not use programs that do not like, no one can force me to use
something I'm not comfortable


proven in *this thread* you can properly write mail with gmail and if 
you are not comfortable in doing so or just use a proper mail client 
where this is no topic you are *ignorant*


top-posting *inside this thread* is simply asshole-behavior

gmail is your excuse?
tell that my thunderbird using my gmail account seamless!


2016-02-04 20:55 GMT+01:00 Paul B Mahol :

On 2/4/16, juan carlos Rebate  wrote:

if you think it's a waste of time does not respond, the sociedd
progresses, the services must engage the advance, the service is so
and we must tolerate, no one should tell anyone how they should do
things.


You are being rude, because you are top posting on this ML




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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[juan carlos Rebate]

I am not rude, gmail-web does not allow me to publish on the bottom
and not use programs that do not like, no one can force me to use
something I'm not comfortable

2016-02-04 20:55 GMT+01:00 Paul B Mahol :
> On 2/4/16, juan carlos Rebate  wrote:
>> if you think it's a waste of time does not respond, the sociedd
>> progresses, the services must engage the advance, the service is so
>> and we must tolerate, no one should tell anyone how they should do
>> things.
>
> You are being rude, because you are top posting on this ML.
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Paul B Mahol]

On 2/4/16, juan carlos Rebate  wrote:
> if you think it's a waste of time does not respond, the sociedd
> progresses, the services must engage the advance, the service is so
> and we must tolerate, no one should tell anyone how they should do
> things.

You are being rude, because you are top posting on this ML.
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[juan carlos Rebate]

if you think it's a waste of time does not respond, the sociedd
progresses, the services must engage the advance, the service is so
and we must tolerate, no one should tell anyone how they should do
things.

2016-02-04 19:31 GMT+01:00 Jannes Faber :
> On 4 February 2016 at 17:42, juan carlos Rebate  wrote:
>
>> I agree
>
>
> To what? Why are you trying to waste my time? Why are you trying to force
> me to search through the context, by top posting?
>
> I'm not going to. So I don't care what you're agreeing to. Which is not my
> problem.
>
> Also, I'm muting this thread.
>
> Thank you,
>
> --
> Jannes
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Jannes Faber]

On 4 February 2016 at 17:42, juan carlos Rebate  wrote:

> I agree


To what? Why are you trying to waste my time? Why are you trying to force
me to search through the context, by top posting?

I'm not going to. So I don't care what you're agreeing to. Which is not my
problem.

Also, I'm muting this thread.

Thank you,

--
Jannes
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[juan carlos Rebate]

I agree, I'm used to answer as well, plus it's easier to read
responses, this innconveniente ignore me on the list, besides the html
is the evolution, why so afraid?

2016-02-04 11:27 GMT+01:00 Nicolas George :
> Le sextidi 16 pluviôse, an CCXXIV, Roman a écrit :
>> I've seen many times people asking/forcing not to top-post to the list...
>> So here I've got a question.. Why ?
>
> I will answer to you with a question: when you watch an episode of a TV
> series, does it:
>
> A. start with short excerpts of the previous episodes, to remind you what
>happened last weeks;
>
> B. end with a full rerun of the previous episode (which itself ends in a
>full rerun of the previous one, recursively)?
>
> You have to realize that while people who ask questions usually read only a
> few of the mail on the mailing-lists and follow only the thread about their
> own issue, people who answer the question, on the other hand, follow several
> threads on this mailing list and others. They need to have a reminder of
> what this is about, before they start reading the new stuff.
>
>> Most of programs, including gmail app
>> and gmail web come with top posting by default and this is the way all
>
> These programs are the result of a negative feedback loop: first, uneducated
> users started replying on top of the quote without thinking, then programs
> for these uneducated users started having features to make that easier to
> handle.
>
>>   Why the hell one should scroll down to see
>> the last post if it is very ok to see the last post on the top of incming
>> e-mail.
>
> You do not have to do that. The best way of replying to a mail is not to
> reply on the bottom of the full quote either. The correct way is to trim the
> quote so that it has just enough context. Just like I did in this very mail.
>
> Regards,
>
> --
>   Nicolas George
>
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Steve Boyer]

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 3:46 AM, Roman  wrote:
> Hi,

Hi!

> I've seen many times people asking/forcing not to top-post to the list...
> So here I've got a question.. Why ? Most of programs, including gmail app
> and gmail web come with top posting by default and this is the way all
> people are used to read mail. Why the hell one should scroll down to see
> the last post if it is very ok to see the last post on the top of incming
> e-mail.
> Where such attitude/culture comes from? Anyone to explain?

I had the same thought when I originally saw all of the requests of
not top-posting. The definitive reason to not top-post is to realize
that all of these e-mails are public for all posterity on the
FFmpeg-user archive. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who is
trying to figure something out and goes to google the problem and
eventually lands in the archives.

Ex.) http://ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-user/2015-October/028744.html
vs http://ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-user/2015-October/028745.html

Both are part of the same e-mail thread - Alex top-posted, so I read
what he said, then say "i missed something" and go down to Moritz's
e-mail read the entirety as it is preserved (not to mention if there
are many more replies embedded), then back to Alex's to fully
understand. Compare that to Moritz's reply in which he responded
in-line, with specific parts quoted, and excess deleted.

Based on that, I've come around to understanding that responding
in-line on a mailing list that gets archived is easier to read in the
future.

> Best regards,

Hope this hornet's nest hasn't scared you away.

> Roman.

Steve
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Roman]

Phil Turmel, Jason C

Hi guys and thanks for your time, but it now seems like we see
disadvantages of quoted answers or laziness of yours to read the whole 28
mails and see the fact, that I was not tried to say something really bad to
this type of style. Thanks to Reindl Harald's patience which was on the
edge already I've managed to understand and accept this way of writing
here, on this list.
Instead of taking your time and pointing out to the history and searching
engines, you could just read the whole thread or, at least, my last few
e-mails :) In some way this thread could even be a good example of
community helping newcomers to make them here feeling like at home. Again:
pointing out to search engines and history in most cases takes as much time
as someone could just write a simple answer.

-- 
Best regards,
Roman.
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Charles Winthrop]

Honestly it is a non-issue. 

I thought I was signing up for a technical discussion and support list, not a 
posting etiquette discussion list. Apparently ffmpeg has no such thing.


On February 4, 2016 10:50:43 AM EST, Jason C  wrote:
>On Feb 4, 2016 4:46 AM, "Roman"  wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>> I've seen many times people asking/forcing not to top-post to the
>list...
>> So here I've got a question.. Why ? Most of programs, including gmail
>app
>> and gmail web come with top posting by default and this is the way
>all
>> people are used to read mail. Why the hell one should scroll down to
>see
>> the last post if it is very ok to see the last post on the top of
>incming
>> e-mail.
>> Where such attitude/culture comes from? Anyone to explain?
>
>There's no reason to clutter the mailing lists info with this one.
>
>Information about this etiquette, preferences for both styles, and
>history
>and reasons for both is *readily* available from *many* sources with
>cursory Google searching. The FFmpeg mailing list isn't the greatest
>venue
>nor is this discussion necessary.
>
>Simply type "top and bottom post" into your favorite search engine.
>
>Jason
>
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> Roman.
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-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Reindl Harald]

Am 04.02.2016 um 16:54 schrieb Charles Winthrop:

Honestly it is a non-issue.

I thought I was signing up for a technical discussion and support list, not a 
posting etiquette discussion list. Apparently ffmpeg has no such thing.


looks like you are no capable to ignore a thread which don't interest 
you - that's not other peoples problem!


hint: nobody forces you to read every mail and you can even tell your 
mail client to discard specific subjects and in many cases even your 
incoming mailserver with sieve


BTW: what are you doing still here after the mail below?

 Weitergeleitete Nachricht 
Betreff: Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue
Datum: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 08:40:02 -0500
Von: Charles Winthrop 
Antwort an: FFmpeg user questions 
An: FFmpeg user questions 

Well, this has decided me. Dump ffmpeg and find an actual solution.

Everyone her would rather whine about writing style than actually solve
a problem. Really professsional, folks!



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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Jason C]

On Feb 4, 2016 4:46 AM, "Roman"  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>
> I've seen many times people asking/forcing not to top-post to the list...
> So here I've got a question.. Why ? Most of programs, including gmail app
> and gmail web come with top posting by default and this is the way all
> people are used to read mail. Why the hell one should scroll down to see
> the last post if it is very ok to see the last post on the top of incming
> e-mail.
> Where such attitude/culture comes from? Anyone to explain?

There's no reason to clutter the mailing lists info with this one.

Information about this etiquette, preferences for both styles, and history
and reasons for both is *readily* available from *many* sources with
cursory Google searching. The FFmpeg mailing list isn't the greatest venue
nor is this discussion necessary.

Simply type "top and bottom post" into your favorite search engine.

Jason

>
> --
> Best regards,
> Roman.
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Phil Turmel]

Hi Roman,

On 02/04/2016 04:46 AM, Roman wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> 
> I've seen many times people asking/forcing not to top-post to the list...
> So here I've got a question.. Why ?

Long-time lurker here, infrequent poster, so take this as an outsider's
view:

People who *ask* questions on mailing lists like this one are only
reading their own mails and the responses to them.  The people who
*answer* questions are reading mails from many people and want to keep
track of many topics with minimal effort.

Threaded e-mail clients are very efficient for the latter, and
top-posting makes threaded e-mails look very bad.  Many such people also
only use text view -- no html.  The standards for quoting e-mail in text
mode (using > characters) were established long before web browsers even
existed.

I, personally and professionally, avoid html email like the plague, as
it is a primary vector for malware attacks and big business data collection.

> Most of programs, including gmail app
> and gmail web come with top posting by default and this is the way all
> people are used to read mail. Why the hell one should scroll down to see
> the last post if it is very ok to see the last post on the top of incming
> e-mail.

Microsoft started the top-posting default in Outlook many years ago.  I
don't know why.  But when webmail became common, many webmail interfaces
deliberately followed Outlook's style to gain acceptance.

> Where such attitude/culture comes from? Anyone to explain?

I'm sure some of the resistance to top-posting is a vestige of
anti-Microsoft sentiment among developers, but I suspect the bulk is
really about readability in text-mode threaded e-mail clients.  Mails
that look good in threaded mail clients also look good in the web
archives, making google searches work better.

It is important to realize that in the open-source world, many if not
most developers are volunteers.  So asking for help is asking for a
volunteer to help you.  Many volunteers will simply ignore you if you
fail to follow their advice, whether on the technical content or the
etiquette.  FFmpeg has published their email guidelines prominently on
their website.

Finally, you received an answer from *one* major developer of ffmpeg,
Nicolas George, then silence.  He and his peers are the ones you most
want to help you, so help them help you by sending email the way they
want to see it, not the way you want to send it.

That's your answer.

HTH,

Phil
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Reindl Harald]

Am 04.02.2016 um 15:06 schrieb Phil Rhodes:

top-posting is considered rude on this list

By who?


why do you strip quotes out of context and play the unknown while you 
are long enough trolling on this list:


https://www.google.com/search?q=top-posting+here+is+considered+as+rude



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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Phil Rhodes]

> top-posting is considered rude on this list
By who?
And at this point, the idea of your accusing anyone else of impoliteness is 
hilarious.
P
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Reindl Harald]

Am 04.02.2016 um 14:40 schrieb Phil Rhodes:

  no, you are a fool telling others "Ignore complaints about it.

Please stop insulting me. I haven't insulted you. Your presumptiveness is 
breathtaking


when you recommend ignoring the list-rules your are either a fool or a troll


  "background noise" comes from the list-owners / developers

That's funny, when I've asked in the past, I have been told that nobody is in 
charge.
Except Carl Eugen, of course


and he explains multiple times each week that top-posting is considered 
rude on this list - SO AGAIN: who the fuck are you to recommend others 
ignore that?





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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Reindl Harald]

Am 04.02.2016 um 14:40 schrieb Charles Winthrop:

Well, this has decided me. Dump ffmpeg and find an actual solution.


have fun, here ffmpeg works for nearly a decade fine


Everyone her would rather whine about writing style than actually solve
a problem. Really professsional, folks!


WTF - complain at the guy asking *why* top-posting is not welcome and 
not at the people answering and explain why



On 2/4/2016 8:09 AM, Phil Rhodes wrote:

I think the fact that this is by far the most hotly-debated topic in a
long time speaks volumes




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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Charles Winthrop]

I work with open source software daily. And I have NEVER seen more 
in-fighting going on with a single piece of it until ffmpeg. Not just 
this list. I've tried forums, live chats, and even stackexchange. Nobody 
dealing with ffmpeg, these so-called "experts" ever answer any 
questions, they just bitch and whine and fight among themselves like 
little children.


On 2/4/2016 8:42 AM, Phil Rhodes wrote:

  Everyone her would rather whine about writing style than actually solve > a 
problem. Really professsional, folks!

Welcome to open source software...
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Phil Rhodes]

> Everyone her would rather whine about writing style than actually solve > a 
>problem. Really professsional, folks!
Welcome to open source software...
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Phil Rhodes]

> no, you are a fool telling others "Ignore complaints about it. 
Please stop insulting me. I haven't insulted you. Your presumptiveness is 
breathtaking.
> "background noise" comes from the list-owners / developers
That's funny, when I've asked in the past, I have been told that nobody is in 
charge.
Except Carl Eugen, of course.
P
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Charles Winthrop]

Well, this has decided me. Dump ffmpeg and find an actual solution.

Everyone her would rather whine about writing style than actually solve 
a problem. Really professsional, folks!


On 2/4/2016 8:09 AM, Phil Rhodes wrote:

I think the fact that this is by far the most hotly-debated topic in a long 
time speaks volumes.
P
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Reindl Harald]

Am 04.02.2016 um 14:35 schrieb Phil Rhodes:

  who do you think you are?

I think I'm the guy who isn't using bad language


no, you are a fool telling others "Ignore complaints about it. They're 
background noise" while that so called "background noise" comes from the 
list-owners / developers




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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Phil Rhodes]

> who do you think you are?
I think I'm the guy who isn't using bad language.
P
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Phil Rhodes]

I think the fact that this is by far the most hotly-debated topic in a long 
time speaks volumes.
P
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Roman]

2016-02-04 14:49 GMT+02:00 Reindl Harald :

>
>
> Am 04.02.2016 um 13:45 schrieb Roman:
>
>> that below is the perfect example how shitty your mailing style is
>>> nobody is any longer able to guess who said what in what context
>>>
>>> I understand your frustration, but please, try to stay calm. I'm not a PC
>>>
>> beginner, I've got really about 12 years of technical experience in *nix
>> and networking world and some years is OSCs
>>
>
> one reason more to learn handle a mail-client :-)


It's just Gmail's web-interface a bit messed up. When I insert my comments
directly into the quoted e-mail, it seems to be working. When I just cut
and paste the quoted part, it won't. Well, now it seems like OK.

>
>
> and there are only few of them,
>> that really want people stop top-posting, but never understood why. So I'm
>> really glad I've found some people, who is patient enough to explain me
>> why, and as you can see from my posts, I even try to adopt myself for
>> this,
>> while I could just behave like selfish dude and tell everyone to fuck off
>> and stop being full of bullshit.
>>
>
> yes you can, but don't forget you want help from people on the list and
> not the other direction


The truth is yours, but the lists consist of much more people that those
who is being upset because of top-posting. So one of my initial offers
would take some place here to: just ignore each other rather than insist. I
guess.

>
>
> Well, back to the topic... Is it better now? Do you guys see those first
>> two lines as quoted and my reply at the bottom?
>>
>
> yes and you will also see a hirarchy on my reply now
>
> one thing: your quoting missed the "person said on date time" which is
> important for a full context
>
>
Thanks. Seems reasonable.  Peace! ;-)


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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Reindl Harald]

Am 04.02.2016 um 13:45 schrieb Roman:

that below is the perfect example how shitty your mailing style is
nobody is any longer able to guess who said what in what context

I understand your frustration, but please, try to stay calm. I'm not a PC

beginner, I've got really about 12 years of technical experience in *nix
and networking world and some years is OSCs


one reason more to learn handle a mail-client :-)


and there are only few of them,
that really want people stop top-posting, but never understood why. So I'm
really glad I've found some people, who is patient enough to explain me
why, and as you can see from my posts, I even try to adopt myself for this,
while I could just behave like selfish dude and tell everyone to fuck off
and stop being full of bullshit.


yes you can, but don't forget you want help from people on the list and 
not the other direction



Well, back to the topic... Is it better now? Do you guys see those first
two lines as quoted and my reply at the bottom?


yes and you will also see a hirarchy on my reply now

one thing: your quoting missed the "person said on date time" which is 
important for a full context




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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Roman]

> that below is the perfect example how shitty your mailing style is
> nobody is any longer able to guess who said what in what context
>
> I understand your frustration, but please, try to stay calm. I'm not a PC
beginner, I've got really about 12 years of technical experience in *nix
and networking world and some years is OSCs and there are only few of them,
that really want people stop top-posting, but never understood why. So I'm
really glad I've found some people, who is patient enough to explain me
why, and as you can see from my posts, I even try to adopt myself for this,
while I could just behave like selfish dude and tell everyone to fuck off
and stop being full of bullshit.

Well, back to the topic... Is it better now? Do you guys see those first
two lines as quoted and my reply at the bottom?
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Reindl Harald]

that below is the perfect example how shitty your mailing style is
nobody is any longer able to guess who said what in what context

Am 04.02.2016 um 13:24 schrieb Roman:

No.  I expect you to use the "features" of the "client" you use.
Clicking on the ellipsis in the box (those three dots in a grey
rectangle) with the tooltip "Show trimmed content" you will suddenly see
everything you are quoting.  You can then cut it up from there.

Here is what is happened, when i Cut/Paste things from there, as I did
before... When I send the mail, I see quoted text in another color (violet
or smth), but I'm not sure you guys see it as quoted :)

2016-02-04 14:00 GMT+02:00 James Darnley :


On 2016-02-04 12:44, Roman wrote:

OMFG!  Let me log into the web interface and show you how it is done.


So you just offer me to insert ">" symbol before every line I quote or

just

copy the whole e-mail I'm answering to?


In the proper HTML interface the quick reply box (as shown in 1.png)
will top post.  As you discovered you can use a greater than sign to
quote any random text.

If you click the "More Reply Options" button you will get what looks
like a proper mail interface (as shown in 2.png).

Moving on to the rubbish javascript interface you will also get a quick
reply box (3.png)




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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Roman]

Most of the time, it doesn't cause serious problems with readability and
may encourage people to contribute usefully if they're posting on, say, a
cellphone, or in a hurry.
It's an "open source thing". The only place you commonly find people
complaining about it is on lists just like this one, dedicated to the
technical discussion of open source software, where certain people feel the
need to prove something.
Ignore complaints about it. They're background noise.


I would only partially agree with you. Yes, it seems to me as a background
noise also, but well, when you call friends or guests to your home place,
you expect them to behave as ethics rules say. So I'd better try to change
my behavior a bit, BUT yet if it won't make me to change some Gmail
settings that will affect other conversations I do (this sound like I would
insist all my guests be naked at my home place. )


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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Roman]

No.  I expect you to use the "features" of the "client" you use.
Clicking on the ellipsis in the box (those three dots in a grey
rectangle) with the tooltip "Show trimmed content" you will suddenly see
everything you are quoting.  You can then cut it up from there.


Here is what is happened, when i Cut/Paste things from there, as I did
before... When I send the mail, I see quoted text in another color (violet
or smth), but I'm not sure you guys see it as quoted :)


2016-02-04 14:00 GMT+02:00 James Darnley :

> On 2016-02-04 12:44, Roman wrote:
> >> OMFG!  Let me log into the web interface and show you how it is done.
> >
> > So you just offer me to insert ">" symbol before every line I quote or
> just
> > copy the whole e-mail I'm answering to?
>
>
>
> In the proper HTML interface the quick reply box (as shown in 1.png)
> will top post.  As you discovered you can use a greater than sign to
> quote any random text.
>
> If you click the "More Reply Options" button you will get what looks
> like a proper mail interface (as shown in 2.png).
>
> Moving on to the rubbish javascript interface you will also get a quick
> reply box (3.png).
>
>
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Reindl Harald]

Am 04.02.2016 um 12:48 schrieb Phil Rhodes:

Most of the time, it doesn't cause serious problems with readability and may 
encourage people to contribute usefully if they're posting on, say, a 
cellphone, or in a hurry.
It's an "open source thing". The only place you commonly find people 
complaining about it is on lists just like this one, dedicated to the technical 
discussion of open source software, where certain people feel the need to prove something.
Ignore complaints about it. They're background noise.


who do you think you are?
https://trac.ffmpeg.org/wiki/MailingListEtiquette



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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[James Darnley]

On 2016-02-04 12:44, Roman wrote:
>> OMFG!  Let me log into the web interface and show you how it is done.
> 
> So you just offer me to insert ">" symbol before every line I quote or just
> copy the whole e-mail I'm answering to?

No.  I expect you to use the "features" of the "client" you use.

In the proper HTML interface the quick reply box (as shown in 1.png)
will top post.  As you discovered you can use a greater than sign to
quote any random text.

If you click the "More Reply Options" button you will get what looks
like a proper mail interface (as shown in 2.png).

Moving on to the rubbish javascript interface you will also get a quick
reply box (3.png).

Clicking on the ellipsis in the box (those three dots in a grey
rectangle) with the tooltip "Show trimmed content" you will suddenly see
everything you are quoting.  You can then cut it up from there.



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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Nicholas Robbins]

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 6:44 AM, Roman  wrote:
>
> > OMFG!  Let me log into the web interface and show you how it is done.
>
> So you just offer me to insert ">" symbol before every line I quote or
just
> copy the whole e-mail I'm answering to?

This was also done from gmail's website. Click on the [...] to show the
quoted material, then, click on the last button on the format bar (an
underlined, italic T with an X subscript.) Called "remove formatting."

-Nick Robbins
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Phil Rhodes]

Most of the time, it doesn't cause serious problems with readability and may 
encourage people to contribute usefully if they're posting on, say, a 
cellphone, or in a hurry.
It's an "open source thing". The only place you commonly find people 
complaining about it is on lists just like this one, dedicated to the technical 
discussion of open source software, where certain people feel the need to prove 
something.
Ignore complaints about it. They're background noise.
P
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Roman]

> OMFG!  Let me log into the web interface and show you how it is done.

So you just offer me to insert ">" symbol before every line I quote or just
copy the whole e-mail I'm answering to?





2016-02-04 13:40 GMT+02:00 James Darnley :

> On 2016-02-04 12:30, Roman wrote:
> > why should *we* suck your quoting style?
> >
> > you should not. just don't reply, if you don't like the style. To try
> > to convince every one to change their habits due to minority being
> upset. I
> > think, such approach will make everyone happy.
> >
> > why should someone use gmail-webinterface when gmail also works fine with
> > any MUA supporting IMAP and SMTP ?
> >
> > Why should I use IMAP from Jurassic age? I prefer MAPI. I always shut the
> > IMAP and POP3 (both SSL and not) protocols down on all of my servers. Its
> > 21. century, Hello?!
> >
> > why can't you use the right tool for the right task
> >
> > same to top-post haters. Use forums.
> >
> > why don't you complain to gmail so that they make a better interface
> which
> > is useable for list-communication?
> >
> > gmail is pretty big company and they dictate standards, not minority.
> >
> > IDK if gmail will now quote the text.. I did it like i had to: copy/paste
> > lines from the whole quoted e-mail. So its not me :D
> >
>
> OMFG!  Let me log into the web interface and show you how it is done.
>
>
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[James Darnley]

On 2016-02-04 12:30, Roman wrote:
> why should *we* suck your quoting style?
> 
> you should not. just don't reply, if you don't like the style. To try
> to convince every one to change their habits due to minority being upset. I
> think, such approach will make everyone happy.
> 
> why should someone use gmail-webinterface when gmail also works fine with
> any MUA supporting IMAP and SMTP ?
> 
> Why should I use IMAP from Jurassic age? I prefer MAPI. I always shut the
> IMAP and POP3 (both SSL and not) protocols down on all of my servers. Its
> 21. century, Hello?!
> 
> why can't you use the right tool for the right task
> 
> same to top-post haters. Use forums.
> 
> why don't you complain to gmail so that they make a better interface which
> is useable for list-communication?
> 
> gmail is pretty big company and they dictate standards, not minority.
> 
> IDK if gmail will now quote the text.. I did it like i had to: copy/paste
> lines from the whole quoted e-mail. So its not me :D
> 

OMFG!  Let me log into the web interface and show you how it is done.



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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Roman]

why should *we* suck your quoting style?

you should not. just don't reply, if you don't like the style. To try
to convince every one to change their habits due to minority being upset. I
think, such approach will make everyone happy.

why should someone use gmail-webinterface when gmail also works fine with
any MUA supporting IMAP and SMTP ?

Why should I use IMAP from Jurassic age? I prefer MAPI. I always shut the
IMAP and POP3 (both SSL and not) protocols down on all of my servers. Its
21. century, Hello?!

why can't you use the right tool for the right task

same to top-post haters. Use forums.

why don't you complain to gmail so that they make a better interface which
is useable for list-communication?

gmail is pretty big company and they dictate standards, not minority.

IDK if gmail will now quote the text.. I did it like i had to: copy/paste
lines from the whole quoted e-mail. So its not me :D

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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Reindl Harald]

Am 04.02.2016 um 12:12 schrieb Roman:

Damn, you guys just made my eyes bleeding again


then look somewhere else?


I use gmail, so when I copy the visualized quote, It ends up with:

does your mail client not visualize quotes?
get a better one - see attachment

Seems like doesn't. Or it actually does, when I will send it? Let's see..
Why should I keep to some client, if I can use web-based clients? :)


why should *we* suck your quoting style?

why should someone use gmail-webinterface when gmail also works fine 
with any MUA supporting IMAP and SMTP ?


why can't you use the right tool for the right task

why don't you complain to gmail so that they make a better interface 
which is useable for list-communication?


https://www.google.com/search?q=gmail+disable+top+posting


2016-02-04 13:06 GMT+02:00 Reindl Harald :




Am 04.02.2016 um 11:59 schrieb Roman:


Thanks for an answer.

I see, but still not share such approach while sending/receiving e-mails.

It was not very comfortable for me to follow your e-mail with such quotes



does your mail client not visualize quotes?
get a better one - see attachment




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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Roman]

Damn, you guys just made my eyes bleeding again.

I use gmail, so when I copy the visualized quote, It ends up with:

does your mail client not visualize quotes?
get a better one - see attachment

Seems like doesn't. Or it actually does, when I will send it? Let's see..
Why should I keep to some client, if I can use web-based clients? :)


2016-02-04 13:06 GMT+02:00 Reindl Harald :

>
>
> Am 04.02.2016 um 11:59 schrieb Roman:
>
>> Thanks for an answer.
>>
>> I see, but still not share such approach while sending/receiving e-mails.
>>
>> It was not very comfortable for me to follow your e-mail with such quotes
>>
>
> does your mail client not visualize quotes?
> get a better one - see attachment
>
>
>
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Reindl Harald]

Am 04.02.2016 um 11:59 schrieb Roman:

When you read reviews (academical, amateur, professional), there are no
quotes and below-postings. Review author just mentions what exactly hes
referring to and continues his review. And same goes to review on review.
Please see academical reviews as an example. Yes, I've wrote 2 diplomas and
lots of reviews, so I really know, what I'm saying :).


a review *is not* a living communication with follow-up replies from 
different people



If an academical approach is wrong for top-posting haters


it's a thread and not a academical review

i don't need the full thread with many KB size in a ton of postings 
because i have the other ones and in case of a complex problem at the 
end of the thread only the open part remians in the quotes


it's also not a business communication where it makes sometimes sense 
take the last mail containing the *whole* communication, print it out 
and throw it into someones face



then I have
nothing to say. Will have to get used to every mailing list approach (still
there are many lists, where people do write with top posting, as it is
human-like approach of socializing using e-mails


well, and on most mailing-lists ignorant top-posting with a full quote 
is not welcome, just because people don't handle it correct all day long 
make them not right


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tofu



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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Reindl Harald]

Am 04.02.2016 um 11:59 schrieb Roman:

Thanks for an answer.

I see, but still not share such approach while sending/receiving e-mails.

It was not very comfortable for me to follow your e-mail with such quotes


does your mail client not visualize quotes?
get a better one - see attachment




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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Reindl Harald]

Am 04.02.2016 um 10:46 schrieb Roman:

I've seen many times people asking/forcing not to top-post to the list...


yes


So here I've got a question.. Why ?


because it's better readable


Most of programs, including gmail app
and gmail web come with top posting by default and this is the way all
people are used to read mail


really?


Why the hell one should scroll down to see
the last post if it is very ok to see the last post on the top of incming
e-mail.


ok, the next time i place "yes", "because it's better readable" and 
"really" on top followed by your full quote at bottom with no context - 
do you think that is better?




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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Roman]

Hi,

Thanks for an answer.

I see, but still not share such approach while sending/receiving e-mails.

It was not very comfortable for me to follow your e-mail with such quotes
etc. I'd prefer to read it just as one whole e-mail separated with empty
new lines for every of my question with references to them if needed (like:
you've asked about this thing and my opinion is this. Later on your text
you've asked about that thing, which seems really confusing and blablabla).

When you read reviews (academical, amateur, professional), there are no
quotes and below-postings. Review author just mentions what exactly hes
referring to and continues his review. And same goes to review on review.
Please see academical reviews as an example. Yes, I've wrote 2 diplomas and
lots of reviews, so I really know, what I'm saying :).

If an academical approach is wrong for top-posting haters, then I have
nothing to say. Will have to get used to every mailing list approach (still
there are many lists, where people do write with top posting, as it is
human-like approach of socializing using e-mails.

As for the comfort of people who answer, they could simply press the "Reply
(all)" button not on the latest e-mail in the chain, but in-front of
message they are answering to. This will make their lives much more easier,
I guess.

Still, I accept the way you answered me, but on the forums only.

PS
I somehow think, that programs that are being used by hundred millions of
people can't be wrong. It is just up to that minority, who likes for some
reason a little bit perverted way of reading (for me and well, other
hundred millions of people), who try to look like they are different. Sorry.


2016-02-04 12:27 GMT+02:00 Nicolas George :

> Le sextidi 16 pluviôse, an CCXXIV, Roman a écrit :
> > I've seen many times people asking/forcing not to top-post to the list...
> > So here I've got a question.. Why ?
>
> I will answer to you with a question: when you watch an episode of a TV
> series, does it:
>
> A. start with short excerpts of the previous episodes, to remind you what
>happened last weeks;
>
> B. end with a full rerun of the previous episode (which itself ends in a
>full rerun of the previous one, recursively)?
>
> You have to realize that while people who ask questions usually read only a
> few of the mail on the mailing-lists and follow only the thread about their
> own issue, people who answer the question, on the other hand, follow
> several
> threads on this mailing list and others. They need to have a reminder of
> what this is about, before they start reading the new stuff.
>
> > Most of programs, including gmail app
> > and gmail web come with top posting by default and this is the way all
>
> These programs are the result of a negative feedback loop: first,
> uneducated
> users started replying on top of the quote without thinking, then programs
> for these uneducated users started having features to make that easier to
> handle.
>
> >   Why the hell one should scroll down to see
> > the last post if it is very ok to see the last post on the top of incming
> > e-mail.
>
> You do not have to do that. The best way of replying to a mail is not to
> reply on the bottom of the full quote either. The correct way is to trim
> the
> quote so that it has just enough context. Just like I did in this very
> mail.
>
> Regards,
>
> --
>   Nicolas George
>
> ___
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>
>


-- 
Best regards,
Roman.
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[James Darnley]

On 2016-02-04 10:46, Roman wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> 
> I've seen many times people asking/forcing not to top-post to the list...
> So here I've got a question.. Why ? Most of programs, including gmail app
> and gmail web come with top posting by default and this is the way all
> people are used to read mail. Why the hell one should scroll down to see
> the last post if it is very ok to see the last post on the top of incming
> e-mail.
> Where such attitude/culture comes from? Anyone to explain?
> 

To answer in a more sarcastic manner (and steal someone else's signature):

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?




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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Andy Furniss]

Roman wrote:

Hi,


I've seen many times people asking/forcing not to top-post to the
list... So here I've got a question.. Why ?


It's a mailing list, not just a conversation between two people.

When you ask multiple questions different people may answer different
parts, which may spawn sub threads.

Reading what may become a large conversation with multiple people and
sub threads with everyone top posting (and not snipping) is just a total
pain, whereas reading with something that does threads where everyone
doesn't top post and snips is much easier.


Most of programs, including gmail app and gmail web come with top
posting by default and this is the way all people are used to read
mail.


I would argue that many people who use mailing lists are not used to
reading mail "this way" and actually hate it 


Why the hell one should scroll down to see the last post if it is
very ok to see the last post on the top of incming e-mail.


Because a lot of times it's not "very ok" to understand what's going on
by seeing the last post - you end up having to try and read all the
preceding bits backwards. To repeat this is a public list, I may want to
read a thread with a hundred posts in it.


Where such attitude/culture comes from? Anyone to explain?


It's the same on usenet (for those of us that still use it) - also if I
post in a forum thread I don't end up "on top", do you think forums
should sort all posts backwards?

It also allows the way I split your questions to happen sanely.
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Re: [FFmpeg-user] top posting issue

[Nicolas George]

Le sextidi 16 pluviôse, an CCXXIV, Roman a écrit :
> I've seen many times people asking/forcing not to top-post to the list...
> So here I've got a question.. Why ?

I will answer to you with a question: when you watch an episode of a TV
series, does it:

A. start with short excerpts of the previous episodes, to remind you what
   happened last weeks;

B. end with a full rerun of the previous episode (which itself ends in a
   full rerun of the previous one, recursively)?

You have to realize that while people who ask questions usually read only a
few of the mail on the mailing-lists and follow only the thread about their
own issue, people who answer the question, on the other hand, follow several
threads on this mailing list and others. They need to have a reminder of
what this is about, before they start reading the new stuff.

> Most of programs, including gmail app
> and gmail web come with top posting by default and this is the way all

These programs are the result of a negative feedback loop: first, uneducated
users started replying on top of the quote without thinking, then programs
for these uneducated users started having features to make that easier to
handle.

>   Why the hell one should scroll down to see
> the last post if it is very ok to see the last post on the top of incming
> e-mail.

You do not have to do that. The best way of replying to a mail is not to
reply on the bottom of the full quote either. The correct way is to trim the
quote so that it has just enough context. Just like I did in this very mail.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


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