Re: [Finale] Full measure rests

[David W. Fenton]

On 26 Dec 2008 at 13:38, dc wrote:

> Johannes Gebauer écrit:
> >But this you can do easily without staff styles. Just space the piece by 
> >sections with different settings. Perhaps it is better to have automatic 
> >music spacing off for this.
> 
> But it's a nuisance to have to space the piece by sections when there are 
> many changes. Not only does it take quite a few clicks each time, but if 
> you make a small correction that requires respacing, you can't respace the 
> music without checking the settings. 

Perhaps you could space the measure manually and then set music 
spacing to incorporate manually changes, instead of overwriting them. 
Doesn't help for parts, but should get the job done in the score.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/


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Re: [Finale] Full measure rests

[David W. Fenton]

On 25 Dec 2008 at 15:57, John Howell wrote:

> At 12:58 PM -0500 12/25/08, Martin Banner wrote:
> >This piece, by Domenico Cimarosa, is for SATB choir, two trombe, two 
> >oboes, violins, celli and bass.
> 
> Well, the problem would go away, of course, if you chose to reduce 
> the note values by half and notate it in 4/4.  Which I would 
> seriously consider if I were making the edition for my own musicians.

I'm very much against halving note values, because for players 
accustomed to reading the long notes, the rhythm works better in the 
original values.

Cimaraso, on the other hand, it not exactly the era when long note 
values were normal. Surely it's a stile antico piece, likely church 
music, where the long note values persisted (Mozart used them). In a 
certain sense, you could easily halve the note values and not cause 
violence to the interpretation of the music. On the other hand, in a 
period in which the long note values conveyed something very specific 
(serious, contrapuntal style), you'd be losing that information.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

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Re: [Finale] Full measure rests

[David W. Fenton]

On 25 Dec 2008 at 15:52, John Howell wrote:

> I just checked in Roemer (1973).  He doesn't say anything about using 
> a whole rest in all time signatures, but he does show the 
> double-whole rest as "obsolete."

If that's what he says, then he's just WRONG. He likely ignores early 
music, where the long note values are important, and the double whole 
rest is essential.

I think it's ridiculous to depend on what someone said in a book. 
Common sense should tell you for your particular piece what 
notational convention is going to work best.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

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Re: AW: [Finale] Finale Notepad/Reader 2009

[John Howell]

At 11:51 PM +0100 12/26/08, Kurt Gnos wrote:


If Sibelius makes a free version, it's another reason for me to switch...


It does not, if I read the website correctly.

However, given the cost of textbooks, workbooks, and other class 
supplies these days, $9.95 is hardly daunting even for students, if 
it does what you need it to do.  (About the price of 2 or 3 
unAmerican beers, right?)  I think that even the "clickers" that we 
are being urged to try out for instant feedback in large classes (not 
to mention taking attendance!) cost about 3 times as much, and they 
are 'WAY more specialized, and students have to buy them if they're 
in a class that uses them.  I don't use them and probably won't, but 
at least one other member of our music faculty does.


John


--
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

"We never play anything the same way once."  Shelly Manne's definition
of jazz musicians.
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Re: [Finale] Finale Notepad/Reader 2009

[Eric Dannewitz]

Sadly, you are in quite a bit there. MakeMusic making Notepad a $$
program was a fatal error in my opinion. They should have left it as a
free product.

But getting a pirated version of a program for a class? That is a good
way to get sued and potentially get fired. Seriously? Recommending to
pirate a software program because you can't pony up $10 for the
downloadable version?

Free was good, but $10 isn't totally unreasonable for what it
doesand they do offer a 30 day full featured
demo..so.

On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Kurt Gnos  wrote:
> I just found out. I set up a canon composition work, made a finale notepad
> 2008 crash course, and asked the class to deliver it as a (free!) Finale
> notepad file.
>
> Now I'm getting a lot of mails - shall/must I buy? bla bla...
>
> I really liked finale notepad as a free program, whatever limited, for my
> students...
>
> If Sibelius makes a free version, it's another reason for me to switch...
>
> BTW, Students can get a cracked version of Finale, too, so this is no great
> argument. I don't recommend this, but now, with notepad no more free, I just
> might...
>
> Anybody from Make Music or Coda listening?
>
> Kurt
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AW: [Finale] Finale Notepad/Reader 2009

[Kurt Gnos]

I just found out. I set up a canon composition work, made a finale notepad
2008 crash course, and asked the class to deliver it as a (free!) Finale
notepad file.

Now I'm getting a lot of mails - shall/must I buy? bla bla...

I really liked finale notepad as a free program, whatever limited, for my
students...

If Sibelius makes a free version, it's another reason for me to switch...

BTW, Students can get a cracked version of Finale, too, so this is no great
argument. I don't recommend this, but now, with notepad no more free, I just
might...

Anybody from Make Music or Coda listening?

Kurt

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] Im Auftrag von
Matthew Hindson fastmail acct
Gesendet: Freitag, 5. September 2008 02:24
An: finale@shsu.edu
Betreff: [!! SPAM] [Finale] Finale Notepad/Reader 2009

As I am on the digest, apologies if someone's already posted about this.

There is apparently a letter being sent out to registered Finale and 
Notepad users outlining (basically) that Finale Notepad 2009 is going to 
cost $9.95, and there will be a free Finale Reader 2009 that will open, 
print and playback Finale and MusicXML files.



This is a bit of a shame.  Sure, US$9.95 isn't too much even if you're a 
student (presumably with a credit card), but for students, downloading a 
cracked version of Sibelius is free.

In an institution, where (for example) we put a copy of Finale Notepad 
onto every staff computer and lab computer (and get the staff member to 
register it online), this is going to be a financial imposition.

Let's hope the new version of Notepad is worth the money and hassle.

Matthew
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Re: [Finale] Full measure rests

[John Howell]

At 9:29 AM -0600 12/26/08, Robert Patterson wrote:

John Howell wrote:



 Same thing with multimeasure rests instead of incomprehensible 
stacks of old-time rest values.


Incomprehensible? Those "incomprehensible stacks" have saved my 
bacon a numerous times when the number was illegible. (In some 
editions it is quite difficult to distinguish between "3", "5", and 
"8".) But in the end I don't have a strong feeling about them for 
rests of 8-bars or fewer. For more than 8 bars the stacks do indeed 
become fairly incomprehensible.



but as a modern player I don't want to have to stop and decode them!


What's to decode? I would not count the Brahms Requiem as "early 
music" (although doubtless some would), and it uses the 
double-wholes. However, interestingly, it uses the double-wholes in 
the score only. The parts have whole rests instead.


I don't recall that, but neither do I question your observation, and 
in any case it certainly did not bother me.


The Brahms was the first exemplar score in the first score-study 
seminar I took with Julus Herford, and Juli had pre-ordered the 
Kalmus full scores (which appeared to be a reprint from the Brahms 
Collected Works).  There was no problem with the rests, BUT, 
apparently Brahms used the soprano, alto and tenor C-clefs (plus the 
"normal" bass clef) in his choral parts (which is what we had in 
those scores), and THAT was a major decoding stumbling block for us 
all!  (I can't remember what he used for the solo voices.)  After 
studying in musicology (and playing viola and gamba), I'm comfortable 
with the movable C-clefs now, but I still can't look at a choral 
score or chamber music score using them and instantly recognize the 
chord structures (with the obvious exception of alto clef).  Just not 
enough practice.  I'm sure it didn't bother Brahms!


However, absent a cue there is always a figure "1" above the 
measure. (1 measure rest.) This may be the best of both worlds, as 
it allows you to use whole rests for both whole bars and half bars. 
(As do the parts in the Brahms Requiem.)


Yes, Roemer does recommend that.  (The only reason I use his book as 
a reference is that it happens to be the only one I own.)  We never 
worked with the parts in the Brahms, just the score.



--
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

"We never play anything the same way once."  Shelly Manne's definition
of jazz musicians.
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Re: [Finale] Full measure rests

[Robert Patterson]

John Howell wrote:


There's no doubt in my mind that if it's a modern edition (and not an 
attempt at an exact urtext reproduction) you should go with the modern 
convention.


I am sure others on the list may have a strong opinion about the main 
point of this statement. I do not (at least, not yet). But the problem 
is, in this case, what is "modern convention".


> I just checked in Roemer (1973).  He doesn't say anything about using
> a whole rest in all time signatures, but he does show the double-whole
> rest as "obsolete."

That makes the score 2-to-2. (Read and Roehmer say it's obsolete. Ross 
and Stone say it is not.) However, I personally lend more weight to 
Stone's recommendation than any of the others, since he was *expressly* 
describing notation in the 20th century, including exhaustive extended 
techniques. Furthermore, his book is not just his opinion but rather the 
result of an international conference (Ghent, 1974) to agree on notation 
standards for contemporary music. (We probably need another such 
conference by now. Ghent is a nice city.)


Furthermore, if you use a whole rest in 4/2 to mean a whole bar, what 
rest value do you use for a half bar? (Read, at least, addresses the 
question. I don't care for his answer.)



 Same thing with multimeasure rests instead of 
incomprehensible stacks of old-time rest values. 


Incomprehensible? Those "incomprehensible stacks" have saved my bacon a 
numerous times when the number was illegible. (In some editions it is 
quite difficult to distinguish between "3", "5", and "8".) But in the 
end I don't have a strong feeling about them for rests of 8-bars or 
fewer. For more than 8 bars the stacks do indeed become fairly 
incomprehensible.


but as a modern player I don't want to have to stop 
and decode them!


What's to decode? I would not count the Brahms Requiem as "early music" 
(although doubtless some would), and it uses the double-wholes. However, 
interestingly, it uses the double-wholes in the score only. The parts 
have whole rests instead. However, absent a cue there is always a figure 
"1" above the measure. (1 measure rest.) This may be the best of both 
worlds, as it allows you to use whole rests for both whole bars and half 
bars. (As do the parts in the Brahms Requiem.)


I would accomplish this as follows:

1. If the whole piece is 4/2, change the default whole rest character. 
Otherwise turn off the automatic display and insert score-only 
expressions as needed.


2. Create cues using whole rests as you would in smaller time sigs.

3. In multimeasure rests, set Start Number At to 1 and set Use Symbols 
for Rests Less Than to 2 or greater.


Obviously, you have the same problem here as with music spacing. You 
have to remember different values for different sections.


FWIW: My Settings Scrapbook plugin can help you store those different 
settings for so you can apply them at will without having to remember 
them all. You can name the different settings anything you want.



--
Robert Patterson

http://RobertGPatterson.com
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Re: [Finale] Full measure rests

[John Howell]

At 10:57 AM -0500 12/25/08, Martin Banner wrote:
I am working on an 18th Century edition from an autograph manuscript 
(dated 1769). The final movement of this choral/orchestral work is a 
fugue in cut time (4/2 time). Although the autograph manuscript 
notates a full measure rest with a double whole rest, I was 
wondering if I should use that in a modern edition or go with the 
Finale default whole rest for a blank measure.


Also, if I use the double whole rest for a blank measure, the rest 
is all the over to the left. How would I go about centering the 
double whole rest?


By the way, I'm using Finale 2008 on an iMac.

Thanks.

Martin


There's no doubt in my mind that if it's a modern edition (and not an 
attempt at an exact urtext reproduction) you should go with the 
modern convention.  Same thing with multimeasure rests instead of 
incomprehensible stacks of old-time rest values.  And I wouldn't say 
it's a Finale default, but rather a modern notational default.


I just checked in Roemer (1973).  He doesn't say anything about using 
a whole rest in all time signatures, but he does show the 
double-whole rest as "obsolete."  From working in early music I 
understand the older rest conventions perfectly well, and also 
understand where they came from historically, but as a modern player 
I don't want to have to stop and decode them!


John


--
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

"We never play anything the same way once."  Shelly Manne's definition
of jazz musicians.
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Re: [Finale] Full measure rests

[Aaron Sherber]

At 05:28 AM 12/26/2008, Johannes Gebauer wrote:
>> There are a lot of things for which this is true. I sent in a
>feature request a few years ago for something like staff styles that
>could be used for note spacing. (I had a piece that went along nicely
>in 4/4 and 3/4 and then had a section in very slow 4/8. I wanted a
>wider spacing for the 4/8 to make it clearer that it didn't just clip
>along like 2/4 in the main tempo.)
>
>But this you can do easily without staff styles. Just space the piece by
>sections with different settings. 

Yes, of course -- but then you have to remember to go in and change 
the settings each time you want to respace a section. Not what I 
would call "easily". It would be so much better if you could save the 
spacing preferences (or other preferences, as I suggested) on a 
section by section basis, and then just respace the entire piece as needed.


Aaron.

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Re: [Finale] Full measure rests

[John Howell]

At 12:58 PM -0500 12/25/08, Martin Banner wrote:
This piece, by Domenico Cimarosa, is for SATB choir, two trombe, two 
oboes, violins, celli and bass.


Well, the problem would go away, of course, if you chose to reduce 
the note values by half and notate it in 4/4.  Which I would 
seriously consider if I were making the edition for my own musicians.


John


--
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

"We never play anything the same way once."  Shelly Manne's definition
of jazz musicians.
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Re: [Finale] Full measure rests

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 25.12.2008 Aaron Sherber wrote:

There are a lot of things for which this is true. I sent in a feature request a 
few years ago for something like staff styles that could be used for note 
spacing. (I had a piece that went along nicely in 4/4 and 3/4 and then had a 
section in very slow 4/8. I wanted a wider spacing for the 4/8 to make it 
clearer that it didn't just clip along like 2/4 in the main tempo.)


But this you can do easily without staff styles. Just space the piece by 
sections with different settings. Perhaps it is better to have automatic 
music spacing off for this.


Johannes

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