Re: [Finale] 18th Century Horn question
Ray Horton wrote: I agree 100% that the score and parts should be written in original notation, substituting mainly treble clef, BUT: I am confused. The two PDFs Kim posted, (if they are score and part for the same measures), are obviously written for horn in A. Are we discussing two different sections of the same work, with two different horn transpositions, or what? Kim's PDF is not the work in question, but merely something he attached in order to illustrate a point he was making. The original work in question has (if I recall correctly) the horn parts written in alto clef with 2 sharps in the key signature, making the score concert pitch and the question was how to bring that score and the horn parts into 21st century usage. Two different works entirely. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 18th Century Horn question
I made a mistake, the horn parts were written for G horns. I apologize about that error and adding confusion to the discussion. Is there any sure proof way to figure what horns were used in the music of this period? e.g. for example in the samples I provided, the first note of the horn part was G. Turns out the horns were in G. Thanks Kim On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 10:36 AM, dhbailey wrote: > Ray Horton wrote: >> >> I agree 100% that the score and parts should be written in original >> notation, substituting mainly treble clef, BUT: >> >> >> I am confused. The two PDFs Kim posted, (if they are score and part for >> the same measures), are obviously written for horn in A. Are we discussing >> two different sections of the same work, with two different horn >> transpositions, or what? >> > > Kim's PDF is not the work in question, but merely something he attached in > order to illustrate a point he was making. > > The original work in question has (if I recall correctly) the horn parts > written in alto clef with 2 sharps in the key signature, making the score > concert pitch and the question was how to bring that score and the horn > parts into 21st century usage. > > Two different works entirely. > > -- > David H. Bailey > dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > -- Kim Patrick Clow "Just be yourself! Everyone else is taken!" ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 18th Century Horn question
Assuming we're talking about 18th century, orchestral horn parts most commonly used only about 10 pitches: written c (or C in old bass clef), g, c', e', g', c'', d'', e'', f'', g''. (It is of course the harmonic series.) If you are looking at a score written in concert pitch, find the horn key where those written pitches pop out, and that is your horn key. (Usually it is the same as the key of the piece.) Even in more florid 17th cent. styles, the key of the horn is likely to match the key of the piece. On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 10:19 AM, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: > I made a mistake, the horn parts were written for G horns. > > I apologize about that error and adding confusion to the discussion. > > Is there any sure proof way to figure what horns were used in the > music of this period? > > e.g. for example in the samples I provided, the first note of the horn > part was G. Turns out the horns were in G. > > Thanks > Kim > > > On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 10:36 AM, > dhbailey wrote: >> Ray Horton wrote: >>> >>> I agree 100% that the score and parts should be written in original >>> notation, substituting mainly treble clef, BUT: >>> >>> >>> I am confused. The two PDFs Kim posted, (if they are score and part for >>> the same measures), are obviously written for horn in A. Are we discussing >>> two different sections of the same work, with two different horn >>> transpositions, or what? >>> >> >> Kim's PDF is not the work in question, but merely something he attached in >> order to illustrate a point he was making. >> >> The original work in question has (if I recall correctly) the horn parts >> written in alto clef with 2 sharps in the key signature, making the score >> concert pitch and the question was how to bring that score and the horn >> parts into 21st century usage. >> >> Two different works entirely. >> >> -- >> David H. Bailey >> dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> > > > > -- > Kim Patrick Clow > "Just be yourself! Everyone else is taken!" > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 18th Century Horn question
But in the Graupner example I posted-- he has the sinfonia in D major, but the horn parts are in G. So I guess the first note you see in the horn part is a help (which was a g). Graupner wrote an ouverture for 2 horns and 2 trumpets and timpani, one horn is in F and the other G. This don't seem to be very obvious choices. On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 11:31 AM, Robert Patterson wrote: > Assuming we're talking about 18th century, orchestral horn parts most > commonly used only about 10 pitches: written c (or C in old bass > clef), g, c', e', g', c'', d'', e'', f'', g''. (It is of course the > harmonic series.) If you are looking at a score written in concert > pitch, find the horn key where those written pitches pop out, and that > is your horn key. (Usually it is the same as the key of the piece.) > > Even in more florid 17th cent. styles, the key of the horn is likely > to match the key of the piece. > > On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 10:19 AM, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: >> I made a mistake, the horn parts were written for G horns. >> >> I apologize about that error and adding confusion to the discussion. >> >> Is there any sure proof way to figure what horns were used in the >> music of this period? >> >> e.g. for example in the samples I provided, the first note of the horn >> part was G. Turns out the horns were in G. >> >> Thanks >> Kim >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 10:36 AM, >> dhbailey wrote: >>> Ray Horton wrote: I agree 100% that the score and parts should be written in original notation, substituting mainly treble clef, BUT: I am confused. The two PDFs Kim posted, (if they are score and part for the same measures), are obviously written for horn in A. Are we discussing two different sections of the same work, with two different horn transpositions, or what? >>> >>> Kim's PDF is not the work in question, but merely something he attached in >>> order to illustrate a point he was making. >>> >>> The original work in question has (if I recall correctly) the horn parts >>> written in alto clef with 2 sharps in the key signature, making the score >>> concert pitch and the question was how to bring that score and the horn >>> parts into 21st century usage. >>> >>> Two different works entirely. >>> >>> -- >>> David H. Bailey >>> dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com >>> ___ >>> Finale mailing list >>> Finale@shsu.edu >>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Kim Patrick Clow >> "Just be yourself! Everyone else is taken!" >> >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > -- Kim Patrick Clow "Just be yourself! Everyone else is taken!" ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 18th Century Horn question
Silly me. G horn in Kim's example, of course. I really should not post so late at night. The alto clef is a neat way of writing D horn in concert pitch - could help the composer keep the part playable while helping the copyist. Trombone players think alto clef whenever we have to read something in D. (When? For example, I recently played the bass trumpet part in the Strauss early tone poem "Macbeth"; the part switches back and forth from Eb to D.) But how many composers wrote concert pitch horn parts in the score? I haven't seen it any where else, but then, I don't deal with the MSS too often. RBH Kim Patrick Clow wrote: I made a mistake, the horn parts were written for G horns. I apologize about that error and adding confusion to the discussion. Is there any sure proof way to figure what horns were used in the music of this period? e.g. for example in the samples I provided, the first note of the horn part was G. Turns out the horns were in G. Thanks Kim On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 10:36 AM, dhbailey wrote: Ray Horton wrote: I agree 100% that the score and parts should be written in original notation, substituting mainly treble clef, BUT: I am confused. The two PDFs Kim posted, (if they are score and part for the same measures), are obviously written for horn in A. Are we discussing two different sections of the same work, with two different horn transpositions, or what? Kim's PDF is not the work in question, but merely something he attached in order to illustrate a point he was making. The original work in question has (if I recall correctly) the horn parts written in alto clef with 2 sharps in the key signature, making the score concert pitch and the question was how to bring that score and the horn parts into 21st century usage. Two different works entirely. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 18th Century Horn question
On Aug 21, 2009, at 12:14 PM, Ray Horton wrote: But how many composers wrote concert pitch horn parts in the score? I haven't seen it any where else, but then, I don't deal with the MSS too often. RBH I have a modern edition (published by Hinshaw Music) of "Credo in D a 8" by Giacomo Puccini "senior", the great great grandfather of the famous opera composer of the same name (1712-1781), in which the full score, in D major, contains horn in G written in concert pitch. Martin Martin Banner mban...@hvc.rr.com http://www.alliancemusic.com/peopledetails.cfm?iPeopleID=22 http://hinshawmusic.com/search_results.php?keyword=banner&search=Search http://collavoce.com/search.php?cmd=search&mode=normal&words=Banner http://sbmp.com/SeeItNowFolder/SeeItNowMen.html http://carlfischer.com/Fischer/search.cfm?cfT=&cfC=Banner&cfID= http://lorenz.com/results.aspx?srch=quick&cid=Martin+Banner ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 18th Century Horn question
At 11:19 AM -0400 8/21/09, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: Is there any sure proof way to figure what horns were used in the music of this period? Sure. You compare the written notes with the notes that were available on the natural horns. Although it can get pretty hairy for Mozart, because he wrote for players (especially his buddies in Mannheim) who could get a LOT more notes by manipulating their hands in the bell. But in general the notes the composer used define the instrument that was capable of playing them. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 18th Century Horn question
At 11:36 AM -0400 8/21/09, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: Graupner wrote an ouverture for 2 horns and 2 trumpets and timpani, one horn is in F and the other G. This don't seem to be very obvious choices. Rather, not very simple choices. We would think nothing of this in the music of von Weber, Beethoven, or Berlioz, composers who deliberately specified horns in mismatched keys in order to use more notes of the chromatic scale. I would think that in this case Graupner was, perhaps, just a bit ahead of his time in doing the same thing. I also suspect, from internal evidence in the music itself, that Bach intended the recorder parts in Brandenburg 4 for one recorder in F and one in G (relative to whatever pitch was used at Köthen, of course). These composers knew the instruments they wrote for intimately and used that knowledge as they pleased. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Concert pitch scores
The practice is varied, but I believe pre-20th-century composers thought in clefs, not transpositions. Most were keyboard players with considerable clef skills. What you're dealing with is a matter of philology. Depending on the level and philosophy of creating an edition, I suggest the edition be in the appropriate key for the pitchset of the horns with a note about the source. F parts are never a bad addition to a set of parts, though unnecessary for the score. Henry Howey Professor of Music Sam Houston State University Box 2208 Huntsville, TX 77341 (936) 294-1364 http://www.shsu.edu/music/faculty/howey.php Owner of FINALE Discussion List ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Somewhat OT: How marked-up can/should rental parts be?
Rental parts are nothing but a means to make life difficult for any conductor who wishes to use them. This is exactly why I don't publish my works; dealing with publishers and editors and even rentals is something I do not want to be a part of...ever. If people want to buy my works, they simply contact me and I have a set made. They are copyrighted and notarized, so those roads are covered. You should contact Music Theatre International (MTI.com) (a musical rental company) and find out what they charge for a school or professional company. They have a by-month rate for any musical they rent out, which does not include the rights. It's like an insurance company (how many people in the cast, how many seats in your theatre, how many shows are you doing)...and then maybe you can formulate your answer from there. Call them up and ask for their librarian or musicologist; the receptionist people don't like long explanations; they WILL hang up on you (part of the rude population of NYC). Patrick J. M. Sheehan Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy P. S. Music Host: "The Saturday Night Blues" on 89.5 WNIJ-FM, 9pm - 12am (CST) & WNIJ.org 1-815-973-2317 (m) 1-815-285-4401 (f) patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com -Original Message- From: Daniel Wolf [mailto:djw...@online.de] Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 5:44 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] Somewhat OT: How marked-up can/should rental parts be? I need some collective wisdom from the Finale list about a practical publishing matter. The modest publishing cooperative I belong to has recently begun renting sets of orchestral parts. I'm completely new to this and many of the trade practices are all very mysterious to me and my conversations with both publishers and orchestra librarians have been cryptic, at best. I feel a bit like I've been caught in an eternal cat and mouse game about who is responsible for what and on what terms. All I wanted to do was provide a good set of parts at the going rate, but neither a "good set of parts" nor a "going rate" seems to have a public standard. Pricing, of course, is kept quite undercover. (One publisher wrote to me that it would be "illegal" for him to disclose his prices, to which my copyright attorney of course immediately replied that there was no such law under any jurisdiction of which he was aware, and that it was simply a trade practice (what would be illegal, as a restraint in trade, would be a rate schedule drawn up collectively and secretly by a group of major publishers); a pair of orchestra librarians replied that they would love to see tables of rates, although it seems obvious to me that if the librarians are in communication with one another about this, they ought to be able to recreate tables themselves and thus assure themselves a better bargaining position vis a vis the publishers.) But the most immediate concern is that I just got a set of parts returned from a major European radio orchestra. They are completely marked-up, with bowings and much more. Should the orchestra have cleaned them up? Should I erase all of these marks, or should some of them be kept? Again, my calls to both publishers and librarians have been less than helpful. Many thanks in advance for your collective advice, Daniel Wolf ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Concert pitch scores
All this talk about concert pitches and brass parts brings to mind that from what I understand now, many HIP performance groups would rather use the 18th century parts when available and make any editorial changes on those-- really taking out the step of making a performing edition. But that still doesn't address the need for scores that would be useful for college students, and other researchers. In the case of Graupner, all the orchestral parts to his orchestral suites vanished in the late 18th century (it's unclear what happened). So I have my work cut out for me. I'm almost halfway finished editing all of the surviving 85 suites now. *Whew* Thanks Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Concert pitch scores
At 12:14 PM -0500 8/21/09, Howey, Henry wrote: The practice is varied, but I believe pre-20th-century composers thought in clefs, not transpositions. Most were keyboard players with considerable clef skills. Absolutely true. Movable clefs were standard from Guido's 11th century notation on, and students were trained in the 9 movable clefs. In fact Nadia Boulanger was still teaching them at the mid-20th century, according to those who studied with her. And since they KNEW the movable clefs, they USED them freely. The exception, of course, was the trumpet notation that developed out of military trumpet corps notation, and that's the notation (everything transposed to C major) most composers used for horns. That's why the alto clef horn parts were unusual. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Somewhat OT: How marked-up can/should rental parts be?
At 12:19 PM -0500 8/21/09, Patrick Sheehan wrote: You should contact Music Theatre International (MTI.com) (a musical rental company) and find out what they charge for a school or professional company. Or Rodgers & Hammerstein Theatricals or Tams-Witmark , the other two major licensing agencies for musical theater. They have a by-month rate for any musical they rent out, which does not include the rights. I'm not at all sure any of them will accept a contract that does not include performance royalties (which I assume is what you mean by "rights"), always payable up front. But all our dealings with them HAVE been for performances, so I might not be entirely up to date on this. I don't think, though, that you can get performance materials without scheduling and paying for performances, and the royalties ARE included in the contracts. It's like an insurance company (how many people in the cast, how many seats in your theatre, how many shows are you doing)...and then maybe you can formulate your answer from there. I'm not sure the number in the cast is part of the computation, since that differs for each show. It WILL control how many copies of the script/vocal score they provide in a standard rental. I'm looking right now at the R&H homepage, and there are links for requesting (a) an amateur theater application, (b) a professional theater application, and (c) a perusal copy (which usually includes one script and one piano-vocal score). But Patrick's basic premise is correct: rental/performance fees vary according to a number of different parameters, and the only way to get a quote is to ask for a specific quote. That's what Grand Rights are all about. They have ABSOLUTE CONTROL and charge what the market will bear! One other thing the rental agencies try to do is reduce competition by not licensing performances of the same show within a certain time period in a certain geographical area. The summer we did "Annie," we competed with a professional company and a semi-professional company in the area, and we got the rights because we were a totally non-professional community theater company (or so they told us). This summer we're doing "Joseph & the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat," and about the time we started rehearsals R&H posted a notice that, "For the foreseeable future, there will be no tours of JOSEPH in the U.S. and Canada. This means R&H will now be able to license JOSEPH with an absolute minimum of restrictions." (Translation: the amateur productions are making them more money than the touring companies!) Call them up and ask for their librarian or musicologist; Musicologist??? You've got to be kidding! There should be such jobs for Ph.D graduates with literally no job prospects!!! And the librarians are not (generally) musicians and are incapable of answering any musical questions you might have! Nor are they interested in the slightest in getting errata lists or making any corrections in their parts, which would cost money, which means every new production is stuck with the same errors that every other production has tried to find and correct. And we all manage to miss a few. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Concert pitch scores
My college prof in this area would always say that the best modern editions should be usable by both performer and scholar. Not always easy RBH Kim Patrick Clow wrote: All this talk about concert pitches and brass parts brings to mind that from what I understand now, many HIP performance groups would rather use the 18th century parts when available and make any editorial changes on those-- really taking out the step of making a performing edition. But that still doesn't address the need for scores that would be useful for college students, and other researchers. In the case of Graupner, all the orchestral parts to his orchestral suites vanished in the late 18th century (it's unclear what happened). So I have my work cut out for me. I'm almost halfway finished editing all of the surviving 85 suites now. *Whew* Thanks Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 18th Century Horn question
Hmm. What sort of reputation does Hinshaw have in this area? Interesting, though. Martin Banner wrote: I have a modern edition (published by Hinshaw Music) of "Credo in D a 8" by Giacomo Puccini "senior", the great great grandfather of the famous opera composer of the same name (1712-1781), in which the full score, in D major, contains horn in G written in concert pitch. Martin ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Concert pitch scores
At 1:19 PM -0400 8/21/09, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: All this talk about concert pitches and brass parts brings to mind that from what I understand now, many HIP performance groups would rather use the 18th century parts when available and make any editorial changes on those-- really taking out the step of making a performing edition. But that still doesn't address the need for scores that would be useful for college students, and other researchers. In the case of Graupner, all the orchestral parts to his orchestral suites vanished in the late 18th century (it's unclear what happened). So I have my work cut out for me. I'm almost halfway finished editing all of the surviving 85 suites now. *Whew* But SUCH a worthwhile project!!! I've used at least one of Kim's editions, and the music is well worth it (although I probably wouldn't schedule a season with all 85 suites!!!). And yes, a lot of hard-core specialists DO prefer facsimiles rather than modern editions, feeling that they convey information that modern editions strip out, but those are few and far between, and would be useless for the performers Kim is targeting--like my own groups! John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 18th Century Horn question
Hinshaw has published well over twenty of my modern performing editions of 18th and early 19th Century concerted choral works, complete with vocal score, orchestral score and instrumental parts. If you click on the second link down below, you can go directly to a listing of my editions in the Hinshaw site. Same for Alliance and Colla Voce, the first three links below in my signature. Martin On Aug 21, 2009, at 2:03 PM, Ray Horton wrote: Hmm. What sort of reputation does Hinshaw have in this area? Interesting, though. Martin Banner wrote: I have a modern edition (published by Hinshaw Music) of "Credo in D a 8" by Giacomo Puccini "senior", the great great grandfather of the famous opera composer of the same name (1712-1781), in which the full score, in D major, contains horn in G written in concert pitch. Martin ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Martin Banner mban...@hvc.rr.com http://www.alliancemusic.com/peopledetails.cfm?iPeopleID=22 http://hinshawmusic.com/search_results.php?keyword=banner&search=Search http://collavoce.com/search.php?cmd=search&mode=normal&words=Banner http://sbmp.com/SeeItNowFolder/SeeItNowMen.html http://carlfischer.com/Fischer/search.cfm?cfT=&cfC=Banner&cfID= http://lorenz.com/results.aspx?srch=quick&cid=Martin+Banner ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Somewhat OT: How marked-up can/should rental parts be?
i seem to remember having come across catalogues online with rental prices but all the catalogues i saved back when looking at this same sort of thing are without rental prices listed... but maybe i am remembering having access to prices through a job i had in an arts library. i remember not seeing any example of parts costing more than 1000 (eur/usd) to rent. this "price ceiling" is what large-scale opera and some major orchestral works will cost. there can be 2nd performance (75%) and even 3rd performance (50%) discounts within a certain timeframe (a season?). mmm, i think the point at which sales become rentals is usually 15 performers: less = parts for sales, more = parts for rent. or maybe it was 10 performers... i know of one national music centre that waives rental fees if the composer requests this to be done for a particular group for economic or other reasons. for first performances i believe the rental fee is usually not charged. some ensembles/orchs will rent parts, receive the package, photocopy the material and their own markings made on the photocopies; when/if they play the piece again, they order/pay for the parts rental, leave the package unopened, perform from their copies and send the unopened package back after the performance. probably the best would be to speak to your friendly neighbourhood music librarian, they have no reason to not disclose the prices. you can also simply put in a pricing request for a number of works to any publisher who refuses to disclose prices to you another way. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Somewhat OT: How marked-up can/should rental parts be?
also, i have never heard of "clean up" charges actually being applied, although i'm sure sometimes they are. i think the pricing is used to encourage the body renting the parts to return them free of markings under the threat of exorbitant clean up fees if the publisher has to do it. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 18th Century Horn question
Looks good Martin, and such a nice picture of you! I did not mean to cast aspersions on Hinshaw! I buy church anthems from Hinshaw. I was making associations I should not make. (Well, you know what I meant - I wouldn't expect to get an authoritative 18th century score from Word Publishers out of Waco, TX, but I've bought anthems from them, also!) My apology, Ray Martin Banner wrote: Hinshaw has published well over twenty of my modern performing editions of 18th and early 19th Century concerted choral works, complete with vocal score, orchestral score and instrumental parts. If you click on the second link down below, you can go directly to a listing of my editions in the Hinshaw site. Same for Alliance and Colla Voce, the first three links below in my signature. Martin On Aug 21, 2009, at 2:03 PM, Ray Horton wrote: Hmm. What sort of reputation does Hinshaw have in this area? Interesting, though. Martin Banner wrote: I have a modern edition (published by Hinshaw Music) of "Credo in D a 8" by Giacomo Puccini "senior", the great great grandfather of the famous opera composer of the same name (1712-1781), in which the full score, in D major, contains horn in G written in concert pitch. Martin ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Martin Banner mban...@hvc.rr.com http://www.alliancemusic.com/peopledetails.cfm?iPeopleID=22 http://hinshawmusic.com/search_results.php?keyword=banner&search=Search http://collavoce.com/search.php?cmd=search&mode=normal&words=Banner http://sbmp.com/SeeItNowFolder/SeeItNowMen.html http://carlfischer.com/Fischer/search.cfm?cfT=&cfC=Banner&cfID= http://lorenz.com/results.aspx?srch=quick&cid=Martin+Banner ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Somewhat OT: How marked-up can/should rental parts be?
--- On Fri, 8/21/09, Patrick Sheehan wrote: > Call them up and ask for their librarian or musicologist; > the receptionist > people don't like long explanations; they WILL hang up on > you (part of the > rude population of NYC). They have musicologists - tell me more. I'd love to find a job like that! -- Io la Musica son, ch'ai dolci accenti So far tranquillo ogni turbato core, Et or di nobil ira et or d'amore Poss'infiammar le più gelate menti. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Somewhat OT: How marked-up can/should rental parts be?
On 21 Aug 2009 at 12:19, Patrick Sheehan wrote: > the receptionist > people don't like long explanations; they WILL hang up on you (part of the > rude population of NYC). New Yorkers are not rude. There are certainly some people in NYC who are rude, but it's not because they are New Yorkers, but because they are rude. What you get from New Yorkers is no nonsense, no chitchat, no false courtesy. I consider it one of the best things about living here. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Concert pitch scores
On 21 Aug 2009 at 14:09, John Howell wrote: > a lot of hard-core specialists DO prefer facsimiles rather > than modern editions, feeling that they convey information that > modern editions strip out, but those are few and far between, and > would be useless for the performers Kim is targeting--like my own > groups! I'm a big fan of performing from original notation when the old notation is a different system from the one we use today, but I'm afraid for music from the period since the notational system settled down, I don't think it's all that worthwhile. Certainly, French music printing in the early 18th century (for example) is very elegant and easy to read from, but a lot of MSS from the same period (and later) are very difficult and filled with inconsistencies and outright errors. Working from an unedited facsimile of those would be incredibly problematic. So, it all depends on the sources. Some work very well for performance, and others need extensive editing to be usable. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Concert pitch scores
At 2:54 PM -0400 8/21/09, David W. Fenton wrote: Certainly, French music printing in the early 18th century (for example) is very elegant and easy to read from, but a lot of MSS from the same period (and later) are very difficult and filled with inconsistencies and outright errors. That's true of mss from ANY time period, of course. One of the first projects I got involved in when I entered Indiana as a grad student was the Voice of America recording of Dave Baker's "Black America: In Memoriam Martin Luther King Jr." Don Moses was the chorus master, but I got drafted to assist him because I was the only one who could read David's chicken scratchings! Just another indication that early full scores were for composers, not conductors, and were never intended to be used for conducting. And that one's copyist is a VERY important person! (Dave must have thought so; he married his copyist!!) John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Concert pitch scores
On 21 Aug 2009 at 16:22, John Howell wrote: > Don Moses was the chorus master, > but I got drafted to assist him because I was the only one who could > read David's chicken scratchings! Just another indication that early > full scores were for composers, not conductors, and were never > intended to be used for conducting. In an earlier period, they were prepared for the copyist to prepare the parts. And that's one of the reasons that Kim's situation is so interesting to me, in that the scores he's working with would likely have confused most copyists in preparing the parts, unless the composer had a very close relationship with a regular copyist who know how to interpret his idiosyncracies. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 18th Century Horn question
2009/8/21 John Howell > At 11:19 AM -0400 8/21/09, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: > >> >> Is there any sure proof way to figure what horns were used in the >> music of this period? >> > > Sure. You compare the written notes with the notes that were available on > the natural horns. Although it can get pretty hairy for Mozart, because he > wrote for players (especially his buddies in Mannheim) who could get a LOT > more notes by manipulating their hands in the bell. But in general the > notes the composer used define the instrument that was capable of playing > them. > > John > > > -- > John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music > Virginia Tech Department of Music > College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences > Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 > Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 > (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) > http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html > > "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition > of jazz musicians. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > -- Lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Somewhat OT: How marked-up can/should rental parts be?
On Aug 21, 2009, at 2:00 PM, shirling & neueweise wrote: i remember not seeing any example of parts costing more than 1000 (eur/usd) to rent. this "price ceiling" is what large-scale opera and some major orchestral works will cost. there can be 2nd performance (75%) and even 3rd performance (50%) discounts within a certain timeframe (a season?). FWIW, Kallisti Music Press offers all orchestral parts for sale only, not for rental. We (I) do this partly to make it easy on conductors (take as long as you want for rehearsal, and repeat the performance as many times as you like) and to encourage repeated programming of the work, since it will be in the orchestra's library indefinitely. I charge for these parts roughly the same sort of price one would expect for rental, usually between $80 and $400 depending on the length and instrumentation of the piece. I have found that orchestras are so unused to this idea that they have sometimes returned the parts to me after the performance, on the assumption that they were rentals. I therefore now include a note with every parts set ordered, emphasizing that the parts are not rentals, and that if the orchestra does not wish to keep them, they should be donated to a school, library, or community orchestra. If any of you out there think this is a good deal, by all means get in touch! Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 18th Century Horn question
In his orchestral music Mozart wrote very few notes that were not not available naturally without much hand work, it was onlly in the concerti that he included stopped notes. in his orchestral music these were limited mainly to the top line F and Eb Cheers, Lawrence 2009/8/21 John Howell > At 11:19 AM -0400 8/21/09, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: > >> >> Is there any sure proof way to figure what horns were used in the >> music of this period? >> > > Sure. You compare the written notes with the notes that were available on > the natural horns. Although it can get pretty hairy for Mozart, because he > wrote for players (especially his buddies in Mannheim) who could get a LOT > more notes by manipulating their hands in the bell. But in general the > notes the composer used define the instrument that was capable of playing > them. > > John > > > -- > John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music > Virginia Tech Department of Music > College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences > Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 > Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 > (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) > http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html > > "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition > of jazz musicians. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > -- Lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Wah-Wah Guitar Notation and Garritan sound
Does anyone know of a way to notate the use of a wah-wah pedal for an electric guitar ---and is there a Garritan sound that I can load to play back the effect? I'm looking for the "Three's Company" kind of sound; real 70's -ish. Patrick J. M. Sheehan patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com <>___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Somewhat OT: How marked-up can/should rental parts be?
> > i remember not seeing any example of parts costing more than 1000 > > (eur/usd) to rent. this "price ceiling" is what large-scale opera and > > some major orchestral works will cost. there can be 2nd performance > > (75%) and even 3rd performance (50%) discounts within a certain > > timeframe (a season?). > > > > FWIW, Kallisti Music Press offers all orchestral parts for sale only, > not for rental. We (I) do this partly to make it easy on conductors > (take as long as you want for rehearsal, and repeat the performance as > many times as you like) and to encourage repeated programming of the > work, since it will be in the orchestra's library indefinitely. I > charge for these parts roughly the same sort of price one would expect > for rental, usually between $80 and $400 depending on the length and > instrumentation of the piece. > > I have found that orchestras are so unused to this idea that they have > sometimes returned the parts to me after the performance, on the > assumption that they were rentals. I therefore now include a note > with every parts set ordered, emphasizing that the parts are not > rentals, and that if the orchestra does not wish to keep them, they > should be donated to a school, library, or community orchestra. > > If any of you out there think this is a good deal, by all means get in > touch! > > Andrew Stiller > Kallisti Music Press > http://www.kallistimusic.com/ I also offer my orchestral parts for sale only, mainly to encourage repeat performances. I also prefer the presentation value of freshly printed parts; after parts are used and shipped around a few times, they deteriorate quickly, as anyone who has rented orchestral music knows. Plus, I'm not eager to add the hassle of tracking rental parts to my to-do list. However, once volume passes a certain point, practical realities may make the rental model inevitable for us POD people. I'm not there yet, but it's a problem I wouldn't necessarily mind having. BTW, as an orchestral librarian I've rented a lot of music, and the publisher ALWAYS asks that the parts be erased before returning, but are virtually always completely marked up when initially delivered. Lee Actor Composer-in-Residence and Assistant Conductor, Palo Alto Philharmonic Assistant Conductor, Nova Vista Symphony http://www.leeactor.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Concert pitch scores
We performed and recorded a couple of David Baker pieces in the LO back in 1974.Great guy. John Howell wrote: At 2:54 PM -0400 8/21/09, David W. Fenton wrote: Certainly, French music printing in the early 18th century (for example) is very elegant and easy to read from, but a lot of MSS from the same period (and later) are very difficult and filled with inconsistencies and outright errors. That's true of mss from ANY time period, of course. One of the first projects I got involved in when I entered Indiana as a grad student was the Voice of America recording of Dave Baker's "Black America: In Memoriam Martin Luther King Jr." Don Moses was the chorus master, but I got drafted to assist him because I was the only one who could read David's chicken scratchings! Just another indication that early full scores were for composers, not conductors, and were never intended to be used for conducting. And that one's copyist is a VERY important person! (Dave must have thought so; he married his copyist!!) John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Concert pitch scores
On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 5:10 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: > In an earlier period, they were prepared for the copyist to prepare > the parts. And that's one of the reasons that Kim's situation is so > interesting to me, in that the scores he's working with would likely > have confused most copyists in preparing the parts, unless the > composer had a very close relationship with a regular copyist who > know how to interpret his idiosyncracies. Graupner, or Endler or Hoffman were the copyists for Darmstadt performance materials, so they knew what he wanted, or could have verbally checked with him. Thanks, Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wah-Wah Guitar Notation and Garritan sound
Hi Patrick, I don't think there is a Garritan sound for that, but I only have the Garritan sounds for Finale. I played the guitar part in the pit for Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat last year, and the guitar book says "wah wah" at the start of the section with a < > for each "wah" that you want and a "wah off" at the end of the section. For example, one section had a half note passage with < > < > < > < > above each half note. This is played by plucking the note and letting it ring while going down and up on the pedal four times (8th note rhythm). Other jobs I have played usually say "wah ad lib" and it's left to the player to decide what to do. Hope this helps. Rick Patrick Sheehan wrote: Does anyone know of a way to notate the use of a wah-wah pedal for an electric guitar ---and is there a Garritan sound that I can load to play back the effect? I'm looking for the "Three's Company" kind of sound; real 70's -ish. Patrick J. M. Sheehan [1]patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com ___ ___ Finale mailing list [2]fin...@shsu.edu [3]http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- Rick Neal Teacher, Composer, Arranger, Bassist, Guitarist [4]rickm...@earthlink.net [5]rickm...@gmail.com References 1. mailto:patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com 2. mailto:Finale@shsu.edu 3. http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale 4. mailto:rickm...@earthlink.net 5. mailto:rickm...@gmail.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 18th Century Horn question
At 10:16 PM +0100 8/21/09, Lawrence Yates wrote: In his orchestral music Mozart wrote very few notes that were not not available naturally without much hand work, it was onlly in the concerti that he included stopped notes. in his orchestral music these were limited mainly to the top line F and Eb I'm sure you're correct, but I've also read that the orchestral horn parts published in Paris were considerably simplified from the mss. found at Mannheim. How much so, I don't know. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] re-installing the program
Fin Mac 2K7 My Mass Mover tool will not allow me to move measures from one system to another. I highlight the measure in question (while in the MM tool) and hit the DOWN ARROWbut Finale does not respond. I think that I might have to re-install Finale to fix the problem. If I do re-install onto the same drive as the first installation, will I have to re-register the program? Do I need to DE-Authorize my current installation before re-installing, or is Finale smart enough to understand what I am trying to do? Will my original 2K7 Folder be completely overwritten? Thanks for any insights. Larry ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wah-Wah Guitar Notation and Garritan sound
Hi Patrick, The Garritan sounds sets only come with clean, unprocessed electric guitar sounds. If you want to apply a wah-wah effect (or any other guitar effect) you will need to do that via a Digital Audio Workstation, using any number of common plugins. As far as notation goes, you can use the same notation as pluger-muted brass: + for fully closed, o for fully open, and dashed lines indicating gradual transitions between the two. (You can dispense with the line for fast open-close transitions.) If you also need a half- open symbol you can designate one. Cheers, - Darcy - djar...@earthlink.net Brooklyn, NY On 21 Aug 2009, at 5:43 PM, Patrick Sheehan wrote: Does anyone know of a way to notate the use of a wah-wah pedal for an electric guitar ---and is there a Garritan sound that I can load to play back the effect? I'm looking for the "Three's Company" kind of sound; real 70's -ish. Patrick J. M. Sheehan patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Somewhat OT: How marked-up can/should rental parts be?
I'm not sure anyone is going to get any useful information about CONCERT music rates from a company specialising in GRAND RIGHTS, which typically run 2 to 4 times as much as concert rights, or even more. Rodgers and Ham charge way more than other companies, because they can. I would call ASCAP (SOCAN in Canada, or your country's local performance rights organisation) and ask them. At least they are interested in what you are doing with the info, which is more than I can say for MTI and their ilk. BTW, I totally concur with John's assessment of their staff. Christopher On Aug 21, 2009, at 2:00 PM, John Howell wrote: At 12:19 PM -0500 8/21/09, Patrick Sheehan wrote: You should contact Music Theatre International (MTI.com) (a musical rental company) and find out what they charge for a school or professional company. Or Rodgers & Hammerstein Theatricals or Tams-Witmark , the other two major licensing agencies for musical theater. They have a by-month rate for any musical they rent out, which does not include the rights. I'm not at all sure any of them will accept a contract that does not include performance royalties (which I assume is what you mean by "rights"), always payable up front. But all our dealings with them HAVE been for performances, so I might not be entirely up to date on this. I don't think, though, that you can get performance materials without scheduling and paying for performances, and the royalties ARE included in the contracts. It's like an insurance company (how many people in the cast, how many seats in your theatre, how many shows are you doing)...and then maybe you can formulate your answer from there. I'm not sure the number in the cast is part of the computation, since that differs for each show. It WILL control how many copies of the script/vocal score they provide in a standard rental. I'm looking right now at the R&H homepage, and there are links for requesting (a) an amateur theater application, (b) a professional theater application, and (c) a perusal copy (which usually includes one script and one piano-vocal score). But Patrick's basic premise is correct: rental/performance fees vary according to a number of different parameters, and the only way to get a quote is to ask for a specific quote. That's what Grand Rights are all about. They have ABSOLUTE CONTROL and charge what the market will bear! One other thing the rental agencies try to do is reduce competition by not licensing performances of the same show within a certain time period in a certain geographical area. The summer we did "Annie," we competed with a professional company and a semi- professional company in the area, and we got the rights because we were a totally non-professional community theater company (or so they told us). This summer we're doing "Joseph & the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat," and about the time we started rehearsals R&H posted a notice that, "For the foreseeable future, there will be no tours of JOSEPH in the U.S. and Canada. This means R&H will now be able to license JOSEPH with an absolute minimum of restrictions." (Translation: the amateur productions are making them more money than the touring companies!) Call them up and ask for their librarian or musicologist; Musicologist??? You've got to be kidding! There should be such jobs for Ph.D graduates with literally no job prospects!!! And the librarians are not (generally) musicians and are incapable of answering any musical questions you might have! Nor are they interested in the slightest in getting errata lists or making any corrections in their parts, which would cost money, which means every new production is stuck with the same errors that every other production has tried to find and correct. And we all manage to miss a few. John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wah-Wah Guitar Notation and Garritan sound
On Aug 21, 2009, at 5:43 PM, Patrick Sheehan wrote: Does anyone know of a way to notate the use of a wah-wah pedal for an electric guitar ---and is there a Garritan sound that I can load to play back the effect? I'm looking for the "Three's Company" kind of sound; real 70's -ish. Patrick J. M. Sheehan I write "Wah-wah ad lib" over the first note affected, just like a mute change or other effect. I have never found any reason to notate exact wah-wah pedallings, but if I ever did, I would use + and o, like a plunger mute for brass. I don't know of a way to play it back from inside Finale. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Concert pitch scores
I wished U would have helped David with his Arranging book...it was (is) in really poor hand Terry --- On Fri, 8/21/09, David W. Fenton wrote: > From: David W. Fenton > Subject: Re: [Finale] Concert pitch scores > To: Finale@shsu.edu > Date: Friday, August 21, 2009, 2:10 PM > On 21 Aug 2009 at 16:22, John Howell > wrote: > > > Don Moses was the chorus master, > > but I got drafted to assist him because I was the only > one who could > > read David's chicken scratchings! Just another > indication that early > > full scores were for composers, not conductors, and > were never > > intended to be used for conducting. > > In an earlier period, they were prepared for the copyist to > prepare > the parts. And that's one of the reasons that Kim's > situation is so > interesting to me, in that the scores he's working with > would likely > have confused most copyists in preparing the parts, unless > the > composer had a very close relationship with a regular > copyist who > know how to interpret his idiosyncracies. > > -- > David W. Fenton > http://dfenton.com > David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
