Re: [Finale] OT: Electronic Keyboards and Organ Samples
On 2010/07/18, at 17:43, David W. Fenton wrote: > Has anyone mucked about with using high-quality samples of pipe > organs with relatively simple keyboards? > > My viol consort may need a rehearsal instrument while the pipe organ > is being rebuilt, and I was wondering if perhaps there are proper 5- > octave keyboards (i.e., F-to-F, not C-to-C) into which high-quality > samples can be loaded. Since we're using it for continuo, we'd need > only an 8' flute stop. > > Any ideas on this? Hi David, I don't think you will ever be satisfied as long as the sound comes out of speaker(s) unless you spent a lot on something like Bose L1 system for sound output. Can harpsichord not substitute for the time being? On the other hand, I knew an organist who used to use a MIDI controller with Roland SoundCanvas on live until he got his own Positive. He had a good ear, and EQed using his own PA system to blend with the Early music chamber ensemble. It is possible, but the player has to know how to EQ depending on the venue/room. In fact it's a consistent problem for us who use amplification. I, too, do EQ my rig before the show every venue, trying to sound my flute as seamless as possible. -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Greater Boston http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Trumpet question
Dear all, What does it mean if a trumpet player gets a roll? Something about his embrochure? Barbara ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
Probably means flutter tongue. On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 6:30 AM, Barbara Touburg wrote: > Dear all, > > What does it mean if a trumpet player gets a roll? Something about his > embrochure? > > Barbara > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Electronic Keyboards and Organ Samples
On 20 Jul 2010 at 2:06, A-NO-NE Music wrote: > On 2010/07/18, at 17:43, David W. Fenton wrote: > > > Has anyone mucked about with using high-quality samples of pipe > > organs with relatively simple keyboards? > > > > My viol consort may need a rehearsal instrument while the pipe organ > > is being rebuilt, and I was wondering if perhaps there are proper 5- > > octave keyboards (i.e., F-to-F, not C-to-C) into which high-quality > > samples can be loaded. Since we're using it for continuo, we'd need > > only an 8' flute stop. > > > > Any ideas on this? > I don't think you will ever be satisfied as long as the sound comes > out of speaker(s) unless you spent a lot on something like Bose L1 > system for sound output. Can harpsichord not substitute for the time > being? We have harpsichord problems that are just as bad as our organ problems in terms of needing repair (the only playable one is at 440 and has a cracked sounding board; we're switching permanently to 415 this year, and the 415 harpsichord is unplayable). And it doesn't substitute in terms of rehearsal at all -- if you practice with harpsichord, you have to perform with it, because it's a completely different animal for the continuo player. You can't play the same notes, you can't time them the same, everything is completely different between organ and harpsichord continuo playing, chiefly because of the decay of harpsichord. > On the other hand, I knew an organist who used to use a MIDI > controller with Roland SoundCanvas on live until he got his own > Positive. He had a good ear, and EQed using his own PA system to > blend with the Early music chamber ensemble. It is possible, but the > player has to know how to EQ depending on the venue/room. In any event, this is not for performance (we'd still do a rental for that, as we have in the past), but for rehearsals. Last year we rehearsed with a cheapo $100 Casio, and it was really not terribly helpful, though the organist brilliantly adapted for the two performances (the first time she had played an actual organ in our program). > In fact it's a consistent problem for us who use amplification. I, > too, do EQ my rig before the show every venue, trying to sound my > flute as seamless as possible. I am not the one pushing for this -- I think we should just get by in rehearsals with what we had last time. There is also something of a push to use an electronic instrument in performance (one-time expense of acquiring it ends the recurring expense of the rental), but I said I'd leave the group if that was contemplated as anything other than an emergency measure, since I don't see how an early music group can have any credibility at all if they are using electronic instruments. I have repeatedly made the case that the big problem with this is speakers and having to adjust for every room. For organ continuo, you basically want a nice compact sound source, but it still has to have certain characteristics. Here's a YouTube illustrating exactly the problem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-OznRBvU3E That is the Roland C-230, which miked up close sounds just great, but heard in a larger room like this, it sounds little better than a Hammond organ or any other primitive electronic organ from 40 years ago, before note-by-note sampling. Ultimately, the problem is that you can't substitute producing the sound from 61 pipes with producing the sound through a single speaker. I've been testing the Hauptwerk sounds and they are great, but they bring my computer to its knees, so it's obvious that even to hook up a keyboard and play through that (speakers aside), would require more computer than I have available (though I haven't tried my Win7 computer because it has less memory, though it's a better quality computer). I was hoping there were keyboards that the sound sample could be loaded into without need for an external computer. Do you know of anything like that? And does VSTI have anything to do with that? There are VSTI versions of the Hauptwerk sounds, so if there are keyboards that can play those, that would work. But I just don't know a damned thing about any of this any more. Everything I knew about this stuff would have fit in a thimble in 1999, and now even that tiny amount is completely out of date. I'm currently doing some investigation in organ-oriented forums, where there are likely others with the same needs. I'll report back on what I find. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
Could be fluttertongue, growl, or alternate fingering tremolo -- but most likely fluttertongue if no other information is specified. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 20 Jul 2010, at 12:23 PM, Ryan wrote: > Probably means flutter tongue. > > On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 6:30 AM, Barbara Touburg wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> What does it mean if a trumpet player gets a roll? Something about his >> embrochure? >> >> Barbara >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Electronic Keyboards and Organ Samples
At 2:06 AM -0400 7/20/10, A-NO-NE Music wrote: In fact it's a consistent problem for us who use amplification. I, too, do EQ my rig before the show every venue, trying to sound my flute as seamless as possible. Yes, when one uses amplification, the amplification itself become part of your instrument, and must be treated just as carefully. Same thing for singers. The difference is that you realize it, and many people do not! John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
At 3:30 PM +0200 7/20/10, Barbara Touburg wrote: Dear all, What does it mean if a trumpet player gets a roll? Something about his embrochure? Never heard or came across the term. Do you have a context for it? John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
John Howell wrote: Never heard or came across the term. Do you have a context for it? John Sorry, accidentally hit the Send button. Yes, I have a context. It's in a movie about a trumpet player based on the life of Bix Beiderbecke. His teacher warns him: You're getting a roll, not bad yet, but on the way. You're dropping your mouthpiece too low on your lower lip. Once you get that roll, it closes up your lips and gives you a choked feeling in your throat and you get tired after a half hour of steady playing. The trumpet player is developing a bad habit in his technique. I'm looking for a proper translation into Dutch for the term roll. I'd be very happy if you had one! Barbara ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
John Howell wrote: Never heard or came across the term. Do you have a context for it? John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
At 7:29 PM +0200 7/20/10, Barbara Touburg wrote: John Howell wrote: Never heard or came across the term. Do you have a context for it? John Sorry, accidentally hit the Send button. Yes, I have a context. It's in a movie about a trumpet player based on the life of Bix Beiderbecke. His teacher warns him: You're getting a roll, not bad yet, but on the way. You're dropping your mouthpiece too low on your lower lip. Once you get that roll, it closes up your lips and gives you a choked feeling in your throat and you get tired after a half hour of steady playing. The trumpet player is developing a bad habit in his technique. I'm looking for a proper translation into Dutch for the term roll. I'd be very happy if you had one! In that case yes, it's definitely an embouchure matter and nothing to do with a specific special effect like flutter tonguing. It's referring to the placement of the mouthpiece on the lips, and the proportion of it that is on each lip. Modern teaching is that more upper lip should be within the mouthpiece than lower lip (which used to be the case only for horn, but now appears to be applied to all brass instruments), which means that most of the vibration comes from the upper lip, and that's obviously what the character in the movie is saying. I can't think of an English term for that, but there's a German term--ansetzen or einsetzen--that refers to it, I believe. If you know a horn teacher, ask. I'm sure there has to be a Dutch term for it. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Trumpet question
Barbara, "A roll" is een inrollen van je onderlip--dwz, je trekt je onderlip over je ondertanden. Sommige trompeters doen dat om in het hoger register te spelen, maar zo'n techniek is niet aanbevolen...zoals de auteur (leraar) zei...je lippen worden er snel moe van. A roll is a rolling-in of one's lower lip--you pull your lower lip over your lower teeth. Some trumpeters do that in order to play in the higher register, but such a technique is not recommended...as the author (teacher) said...your lips quickly tire that way. Jim W. From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of John Howell [john.how...@vt.edu] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 1:18 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Trumpet question At 3:30 PM +0200 7/20/10, Barbara Touburg wrote: >Dear all, > >What does it mean if a trumpet player gets a roll? Something about >his embrochure? Never heard or came across the term. Do you have a context for it? John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Trumpet question
2. deel... Een trompeter krijgt een inrolling van de onderlip ook als z/hij de mondstuck te stevig tegen de lippen/tanden drukt, wat er al te vaak gebeurt bij 't spelen in 't hoge register. Jim...(die z'n embouchure [op euphonium] nooit verzet) Williams Part 2... A trumpeter gets a rolling-in of the lower lip also if s/he presses the mouthpiece too hard against the lips (teeth), which happens all too frequently when playing in the upper register. Jim (who never shifts his euphonium embouchure) Williams From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of John Howell [john.how...@vt.edu] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 1:18 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Trumpet question At 3:30 PM +0200 7/20/10, Barbara Touburg wrote: >Dear all, > >What does it mean if a trumpet player gets a roll? Something about >his embrochure? Never heard or came across the term. Do you have a context for it? John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
Williams, Jim wrote: Barbara, "A roll" is een inrollen van je onderlip--dwz, je trekt je onderlip over je ondertanden. Sommige trompeters doen dat om in het hoger register te spelen, maar zo'n techniek is niet aanbevolen...zoals de auteur (leraar) zei...je lippen worden er snel moe van. Hee, wat leuk, in het Nederlands. Weet je toevallig de Nederlandse term voor roll? Hey, that's nice, in Dutch. Do you happen to know the Dutch term for roll? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Trumpet question
geen flauw idee...not the faintest idea! I *believe* there is a site called "trompet.nl" waar je misschien zo'n vraag kon stellen. From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of Barbara Touburg [btoub...@wanadoo.nl] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 2:23 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Trumpet question Williams, Jim wrote: > Barbara, > > "A roll" is een inrollen van je onderlip--dwz, je trekt je onderlip over je > ondertanden. > Sommige trompeters doen dat om in het hoger register te spelen, maar zo'n > techniek > is niet aanbevolen...zoals de auteur (leraar) zei...je lippen worden er snel > moe van. > Hee, wat leuk, in het Nederlands. Weet je toevallig de Nederlandse term voor roll? Hey, that's nice, in Dutch. Do you happen to know the Dutch term for roll? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
On Tue Jul 20, at TuesdayJul 20 1:29 PM, Barbara Touburg wrote: John Howell wrote: Never heard or came across the term. Do you have a context for it? John Sorry, accidentally hit the Send button. Yes, I have a context. It's in a movie about a trumpet player based on the life of Bix Beiderbecke. His teacher warns him: You're getting a roll, not bad yet, but on the way. You're dropping your mouthpiece too low on your lower lip. Once you get that roll, it closes up your lips and gives you a choked feeling in your throat and you get tired after a half hour of steady playing. The trumpet player is developing a bad habit in his technique. I'm looking for a proper translation into Dutch for the term roll. I'd be very happy if you had one! Barbara Oh, we all thought it was a triple-slash through the stem, like a snare drum roll! What is being talked about here is the need to roll the lips in a bit to form an embouchure, not pucker like you are going to kiss someone. Kind of like the difference between mouthing the letter "M" (correct) and the letter "O" (generally considered to be, well, less correct. This philosophy has changed somewhat over the years.) The top and bottom of the rim of the mouthpiece should rest on the skin, not the pink of the lips. If you overdo it, then you end up jamming too much lower lip into the mouthpiece and it requires too much air pressure to play. This is what is being warned against in the dialogue you quoted. Hope this helps. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
Williams, Jim wrote: geen flauw idee...not the faintest idea! I *believe* there is a site called "trompet.nl" waar je misschien zo'n vraag kon stellen. Dat klopt. Hoe komt het dat je Nederlands spreekt en Nederlandse sites kent? We zijn maar een piepklein landje! :) I went to that site - yes, it exists - and posed the question there. As soon as I get an answer, I'll report back here. Btw, the movie is Young Man with a Horn (1940) with Michael Douglas. Love the music. It's what I grew up with, besides the (what we call) the "iron reportoire" of classical music. Anyone want the subtitles for it? Just download the movie and holler, I'll send them. Greetings and thanks, again! Barbara ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Slurring grace notes
Kurt Stone in "Music Notation in the Twentieth Century" (page 22) says: 1. "It used to be customary to slur grace notes to the main note, but since such slurs are superfluous it is recommended that they be omitted." 2. Traditional practice is to start the main legato slur on the first main note (not the grace note) of the phrase. "This practice should be revised to include the grace note(s) in the slurs." I've always notated the traditional way (small slur from grace to first main note). I'm afraid that careful performers will see no slur (#1 above) and actually articulate both the grace and the following main note. Stone says to put a staccato mark on the grace if that's what you want. #2 is logical but looks a little strange to me. What do you think about this? Paul Hayden Magnolia Music Press Voice & Pre-arranged fax: 225-769-9604 ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Slurring grace notes
On 20 Jul 2010 at 14:18, Paul Hayden wrote: > Kurt Stone in "Music Notation in the Twentieth Century" (page 22) > says: > > 1. "It used to be customary to slur grace notes to the main note, but > since such slurs are superfluous it is recommended that they be > omitted." This was not really true, ever. There are a number of different kinds of things that are referred to by the 19th-century term "grace notes." In 18th-century notation, appoggiaturas (I never know how to spell that damned word), which are not the same thing as grace notes, demonstrate variable practice in terms of slurs or no slurs. Some copyists/engravers put them on as a matter of course, others only when a bowing or slur is actually intended. Which is in use is highly dependent on the period, the geographic location/training of the copyist/engraver, and the particular repertory involved. > 2. Traditional practice is to start the main legato slur on the first > main note (not the grace note) of the phrase. "This practice should be > revised to include the grace note(s) in the slurs." Again, this is a practice the ignores everything before approximately 1820, likely because people just didn't notice that there were distinct notational practices in different repertories. > I've always notated the traditional way (small slur from grace to > first main note). I'm afraid that careful performers will see no slur > (#1 above) and actually articulate both the grace and the following > main note. Stone says to put a staccato mark on the grace if that's > what you want. That sounds completely crazy to me. What does "articulate" mean? Even with a stringed instrument, there's no reason that two unbowed notes cannot be played legato, so a staccato would imply something distinct from what two unbowed notes would implied (and distinct in turn from two bowed notes). > #2 is logical but looks a little strange to me. > > What do you think about this? I think the rules are completely wrongheaded. There can be no rule to cover such a huge number of possibilities and myriad different notational/performance traditions. The answer will not come from a rule in a book, but from what makes sense in the particular repertory/period you are engraving. This is why, in general, I completely disregard all the notataional rule books. I encounter way to many cases in real historical sources where the modern engraving rules make a hash of what is crucial information for the performer. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Slurring grace notes
At 2:18 PM -0500 7/20/10, Paul Hayden wrote: Kurt Stone in "Music Notation in the Twentieth Century" (page 22) says: 1. "It used to be customary to slur grace notes to the main note, but since such slurs are superfluous it is recommended that they be omitted." 2. Traditional practice is to start the main legato slur on the first main note (not the grace note) of the phrase. "This practice should be revised to include the grace note(s) in the slurs." I've always notated the traditional way (small slur from grace to first main note). I'm afraid that careful performers will see no slur (#1 above) and actually articulate both the grace and the following main note. Stone says to put a staccato mark on the grace if that's what you want. #2 is logical but looks a little strange to me. What do you think about this? I've adopted (without really thinking about it!) the no-slur option in my own music. And no musician with any experience would ever articulate the grace note UNLESS it's a unison with the main note and obviously intended as an articulated anticipation. (See "circus chord" as well as "Poet & Peasant Overture.") Speaking strictly for string players, we'll always slur the grace note to the main note--again unless the situation is pretty clearly different, but that would normally be indicated by up and down bow markings. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Slurring grace notes
To be fair, Kurt Stone is not addressing compositions of all periods. It is specifically a set of recommendations for notation of music "in the 20th century." (In his case, the 20th century seems on average decidedly more avant-garde than the 21st, so I accept it for 21st century compositions too.) Secondly, it is by no means a "rule book". It is, rather, a collection of recommendations. I find the most interesting recommendations in it are for notations of special effects: the more unusual the special effect the more interesting is the recommendation. What Kurt Stone is decidedly *not* is a treatise about past notational practice, so any statements in it about past notational practice must be understood as ad hoc comments mostly related to a past that dates no further back than mid-19th century. Refuting the particulars of his statements about the past is almost never relevant to what Stone is trying to say. To the extent that he makes such statements, they serve only as a spring board for recommendations for future practice. I don't even think of something like Ted Ross as a "rule book". I think David's point is well-taken that every piece (and project) has a context for knowing how the "rules" apply. One can never view these texts as more than recommendations informed by a particular point of view. But I use the word "informed" purposefully. I find the recommendations are frequently excellent if they are applied in the right context, and sometimes they transfer very effectively to other contexts. "Completely disregarding" strikes me as a surprisingly dismissive attitude for such often valuable, pertinent, and time-saving advice. As to the specific point about slurred grace notes, I find myself in disagreement with Kurt Stone's recommendation. I guess I am a traditionalist, even if said tradition dates back only to ~1820. But ultimately performers will probably survive any notation you choose. As long as it requires no explanation, you are good to go. On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 2:44 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: > > This is why, in general, I completely disregard all the notataional > rule books. I encounter way to many cases in real historical sources > where the modern engraving rules make a hash of what is crucial > information for the performer. > > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
>From discussions with horn players I think the translation of einsetzen (old >style) and ansetzen (considered more modern as it allows for wider rims >furthering endurance) is quite simply inset and onset embouchure. I use the inset embouchure on horn and Wagner tuba, as setting the edge of the narrow rim in the red of my lower lip. The benefit is about always using the exact same reference point for the mouthpiece, which furthers control. It may be legend, but the followers of this concept believe they get a truer horn sound. This set of concepts, in or on, has nothing to do with rolling the lower lip over the lower incisors. That rather is one of the common bad habits in non-educated brass playing. Klaus --- On Tue, 7/20/10, John Howell wrote: > From: John Howell > Subject: Re: [Finale] Trumpet question > To: finale@shsu.edu > Date: Tuesday, July 20, 2010, 7:56 PM > At 7:29 PM +0200 7/20/10, Barbara > Touburg wrote: > > John Howell wrote: > > > >> Never heard or came across the term. Do you > have a context for it? > >> > >> John > >> > > > > Sorry, accidentally hit the Send button. > > > > Yes, I have a context. > > > > It's in a movie about a trumpet player based on the > life of Bix Beiderbecke. His teacher warns him: You're > getting a roll, not bad yet, but on the way. You're dropping > your mouthpiece too low on your lower lip. Once you get that > roll, it closes up your lips and gives you a choked feeling > in your throat and you get tired after a half hour of steady > playing. > > > > The trumpet player is developing a bad habit in his > technique. > > > > I'm looking for a proper translation into Dutch for > the term roll. > > I'd be very happy if you had one! > > In that case yes, it's definitely an embouchure matter and > nothing to do with a specific special effect like flutter > tonguing. It's referring to the placement of the > mouthpiece on the lips, and the proportion of it that is on > each lip. Modern teaching is that more upper lip > should be within the mouthpiece than lower lip (which used > to be the case only for horn, but now appears to be applied > to all brass instruments), which means that most of the > vibration comes from the upper lip, and that's obviously > what the character in the movie is saying. I can't > think of an English term for that, but there's a German > term--ansetzen or einsetzen--that refers to it, I believe. > > If you know a horn teacher, ask. I'm sure there has > to be a Dutch term for it. > > John > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Slurring grace notes
On 20 Jul 2010 at 15:33, Robert Patterson wrote: > I don't even think of something like Ted Ross as a "rule book". I > think David's point is well-taken that every piece (and project) has a > context for knowing how the "rules" apply. One can never view these > texts as more than recommendations informed by a particular point of > view. But I use the word "informed" purposefully. I find the > recommendations are frequently excellent if they are applied in the > right context, and sometimes they transfer very effectively to other > contexts. "Completely disregarding" strikes me as a surprisingly > dismissive attitude for such often valuable, pertinent, and > time-saving advice. I have never found a single one of the recommendations in any of the notation guides useful for anything at all, except what is already obvious as standard notational practice in modern post-1840s engraving (Breitkopf & Härtel house style and all its descendents). But I'm not engraving post-1840s music, other than my own, and in that case, I know what the correct notation is without having to look it up in a book! -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Slurring grace notes
Notation: okay I'll accept that you don't need any advice for standard notation (your "post-Breitkopf" stuff). I don't either. Specifics of engraving style, maybe. (This is very different than notation.) Ross addresses engraving, not notation, and if you are not familiar with him, or with some other similar treatise, you probably would find quite a lot in there that you had not previously thought about. I found Ross, despite the lack of academic polish in his style, to be invaluable. Obviously, if you have already studied engraving as a separate topic than notation, you may not need any more advice there. Where Stone excels is when you need a notation you've never seen before. Cases where I have either taken his recommendations, or used them as the basis of a notation of my own devising: * indication of specific locations on gong to strike (side, top, center, etc.) * blowing air through a horn mouthpiece without pitch. * playing specific strings below the bridge of a string instrument, and/or mixing that with normal playing * making a circular motion on a drum head or gong * various inside the piano effects * percussion battery score order. I can conceive that you may never have need for this kind of advice, but the above list barely scratches the surface of what's in there. And Stone didn't just produce it like Athena out of Zeus's brow. His book is basically the minutes of an international conference in 1980 of interested parties who came together to come up with these recommendations. It represents a fairly broad consensus for that time. If you don't need it, fine. But lumping it in with "the notation guides", like it was some sort of "dummy's" book, shows a surprising lack of appreciation for the contents. It makes me wonder if you've looked at it. On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 3:50 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: > > But I'm not engraving post-1840s music, other than my own, and in > that case, I know what the correct notation is without having to look > it up in a book! > > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
On 7/20/2010 6:30 AM, Barbara Touburg wrote: Dear all, What does it mean if a trumpet player gets a roll? Something about his embrochure? Barbara In my 40+ years playing, it means lunch. cd -- http://members.cox.net/dershem/index.html http://dershem.livejournal.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
On 7/20/2010 10:29 AM, Barbara Touburg wrote: John Howell wrote: Never heard or came across the term. Do you have a context for it? John Yes, I have a context. It's in a movie about a trumpet player based on the life of Bix Beiderbecke. His teacher warns him: You're getting a roll, not bad yet, but on the way. You're dropping your mouthpiece too low on your lower lip. Once you get that roll, it closes up your lips and gives you a choked feeling in your throat and you get tired after a half hour of steady playing. The trumpet player is developing a bad habit in his technique. I'm looking for a proper translation into Dutch for the term roll. I'd be very happy if you had one! Barbara Ah. That makes more sense. If you roll your lip in (or out), it will affect your embouchure. Imagine playing with a severe 'pout' to your lips, and using the part further and further in (or out) of the usual placement. I hope that allows you to find a context for translation. cd --- http://members.cox.net/dershem/index.html http://dershem.livejournal.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
