Re: [Finale] dotted notes
I have the Henle Urtext edition of that Nocturne, which should reproduce Chopin's notation: as far as I can see it is the same as in that example. We're discussing dotted notes that share noteheads: you can see some in measures 33 - 35. Another nice example is given the Nocturne in F# minor, opus 48 Nr. 2. The Henle Urtext edition shows a dotted half note sharing a notehead with a half note in the first measure. In measures 7 and 8, triplet eighth notes share noteheads with half notes or dotted quarter notes. I'm sure this was how Chopin wrote it. Other editions have tried to correct Chopin's notation, see for instance here: http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0073868 Putting aside the question of whether we should accurately reproduce Chopin's shared noteheads or not (I think we should), I'd say that the double notehead in measure 1 is OK, but the double noteheads in measures 7 and 8 are clumsy and hinder the reading of the passage. Michael On 8 Feb 2011, at 05:00, David W. Fenton wrote: On 7 Feb 2011 at 13:28, Steve Parker wrote: Found one on the web. http://www.music.informatics.indiana.edu/media/don/chopinnocturnediffd urs_context2.jpg There is so much 'technically' rhythmically wrong and unclear here. Of course it is perfectly clear and expressive. Imagine writing it as played and it feels like a different piece The F# Nocturne -- I played it. I don't know what your point is by citing it. It doesn't at all relate to the topic we were speaking about -- it introduces a whole host of unrelated issues (so far as I can see). And that's the Paderewski edition, which does not necessarily represent what was in Chopin's autograph. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] dotted notes
On 8 Feb 2011, at 04:00, David W. Fenton wrote: I don't know what your point is by citing it. It doesn't at all relate to the topic we were speaking about -- it introduces a whole host of unrelated issues (so far as I can see). I thought to some small extent that we had gone on to a more general discussion of technically correct versus clear. My whole point is that there are a whole host of issues and that, despite their 'wrongness' Chopin can (usually) be found to be quite explicit. I gave the example because it was easy to find on the internet whilst away from my scores. Also as a pathological example where a lot of the note values do not mean what they say. And that's the Paderewski edition, which does not necessarily represent what was in Chopin's autograph. I really am not so dumb nor inexperienced to give an example that is not the same. The often elegant idiosyncrasies of Chopin's (own..) writing are well known and discussed. ? Steve P. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] dotted notes
On 8 Feb 2011 at 10:33, Florence + Michael wrote: I have the Henle Urtext edition of that Nocturne, which should reproduce Chopin's notation: You seem to have a naïve idea about what a Henle Urtext actually is. It still has editorial changes to it, even though the Urtext designation would tend to make one think that it doesn't. And that often includes things that are considered notationally incidental (as this might of might not be for any particular editor). as far as I can see it is the same as in that example. We're discussing dotted notes that share noteheads: you can see some in measures 33 - 35. Another nice example is given the Nocturne in F# minor, opus 48 Nr. 2. The Henle Urtext edition shows a dotted half note sharing a notehead with a half note in the first measure. In measures 7 and 8, triplet eighth notes share noteheads with half notes or dotted quarter notes. I'm sure this was how Chopin wrote it. In other words, you've looked at Chopin's autograph, or a reproduction of it? If not, you have no basis at all for being sure of what Chopin wrote! At least, not for any definition of sure that I Other editions have tried to correct Chopin's notation, see for instance here: http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0073868 Putting aside the question of whether we should accurately reproduce Chopin's shared noteheads or not (I think we should), I'd say that the double notehead in measure 1 is OK, but the double noteheads in measures 7 and 8 are clumsy and hinder the reading of the passage. I'm agnostic on one or the other. I'm just a stickler for precision in the question of what notational practices derive from the composer. You can't assume anything about that unless you're looking at the composer's own hand, or (to a lesser extent), at an edition that is known to have been supervised by the composer. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] dotted notes
On 8 Feb 2011 at 10:36, Steve Parker wrote: On 8 Feb 2011, at 04:00, David W. Fenton wrote: And that's the Paderewski edition, which does not necessarily represent what was in Chopin's autograph. I really am not so dumb nor inexperienced to give an example that is not the same. The often elegant idiosyncrasies of Chopin's (own..) writing are well known and discussed. ? To misquote Jerry Maguire: SHOW ME THE AUTOGRAPH! Seriously. You can't make remarks about Chopin's notational practices/intentions by referring to anything else (unless you can demonstrate that Chopin supervised the edition you're looking at). Are you saying that you've compared the cited example to Chopin's autograph? Or only that you've read someone who says it's the same? If the latter, I wouldn't trust it. I learned along time ago that lots of things get into print (even from reputable and reliable scholars) that don't hold up under an examination of the actual evidence. So, I simply wouldn't believe any such discussion unless I could see the examples on which it was based. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] dotted notes
Ah yes, I'd forgotten how rude and condescending you can be. Why can't you just state your point of view without insulting people? Pertaining to how sure I am, I won't go into all the details of how many Chopin facsimiles I've seen or what I know about Henle Urtext editions: I'll just say that I would bet a considerable sum of money on those particular beamings and shared noteheads being the same in the Henle edition and in Chopin's manuscript. I'll also point out, once more, that the example Steve posted is indeed directly related to the original discussion, since it contains noteheads shared by dotted notes. Michael On 8 Feb 2011, at 14:26, David W. Fenton wrote: On 8 Feb 2011 at 10:33, Florence + Michael wrote: I have the Henle Urtext edition of that Nocturne, which should reproduce Chopin's notation: You seem to have a naïve idea about what a Henle Urtext actually is. It still has editorial changes to it, even though the Urtext designation would tend to make one think that it doesn't. And that often includes things that are considered notationally incidental (as this might of might not be for any particular editor). as far as I can see it is the same as in that example. We're discussing dotted notes that share noteheads: you can see some in measures 33 - 35. Another nice example is given the Nocturne in F# minor, opus 48 Nr. 2. The Henle Urtext edition shows a dotted half note sharing a notehead with a half note in the first measure. In measures 7 and 8, triplet eighth notes share noteheads with half notes or dotted quarter notes. I'm sure this was how Chopin wrote it. In other words, you've looked at Chopin's autograph, or a reproduction of it? If not, you have no basis at all for being sure of what Chopin wrote! At least, not for any definition of sure that I Other editions have tried to correct Chopin's notation, see for instance here: http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0073868 Putting aside the question of whether we should accurately reproduce Chopin's shared noteheads or not (I think we should), I'd say that the double notehead in measure 1 is OK, but the double noteheads in measures 7 and 8 are clumsy and hinder the reading of the passage. I'm agnostic on one or the other. I'm just a stickler for precision in the question of what notational practices derive from the composer. You can't assume anything about that unless you're looking at the composer's own hand, or (to a lesser extent), at an edition that is known to have been supervised by the composer. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] dotted notes
At 10:33 AM +0100 2/8/11, Florence + Michael wrote: I have the Henle Urtext edition of that Nocturne, which should reproduce Chopin's notation: as far as I can see it is the same as in that example. We're discussing dotted notes that share noteheads: you can see some in measures 33 - 35. Small point, perhaps, but an urtext is an attempt to reproduce accurately a composer's original intention minus subsequent layers of editorial decisions. But whether it attempts to reproduce the original notation is not at all clear. A facsimile, on the other hand, IS the original notation, but still needs to be interpreted. Notation is not and never has been a matter of this shall ye do and none other! It has always been a combination of tradition, innovation, and attempted communication between composer and performer. The marks on the paper are no more the music than a blueprint is a building. As just one pretty obvious example, the BG editors attempted to reproduce Bach's music exactly, including keeping the original clefs that he used. But they foundered on the fact that the standard pitch and the organ pitch in the various places where Bach worked was different, and sometimes the organ part was notated in a different key from the other parts. They had to make decisions, but in some cases they made the wrong decisions. The NBA edition, on the other hand, made an attempt to resolve some of the questions raised by the BG edition, but used modern clefs to do so, not the clefs Bach used. Therefore, not an exact copy. Both are urtext, for their own time, place, and practices. I'm not a pianist so I can't speak to Chopin's notation, but I'm very aware that composers often used notation that was in effect a shorthand and in some cases very idiosyncratic, so even first editions (which may or may not have been approved by the composer--don't assume that they were!!)--have been edited by SOMEONE and perhaps reflect editorial practice of the time rather than the composer's notation. And when we get into manuscripts of unpublished works--well, just ask Kim Patrick about some of the things he's had to unravel in his transcriptions of 18th century music!! Just one of the little frustrations musicologists have to deal with on a daily basis. Silly ol' composers! John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] O.T. Delalande's Symphonies pour la soupir du Roi
Good day: Someone here in New York has asked me about an edition of Delalande's Symphonies pour la soupir du Roi, and have said they can't locate a modern edition. Could anyone help with some leads, or even where the original source(s) are? Thank you kindly, Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Delalande's Symphonies pour la soupir du Roi
Kim: I've sent you the result of a WorldCat search for Delaland symphonies. Doesn't seem to be a complete edition, but selections are available. If you want more detail of individual library holdings, please contact me. In most cases the number of holdings is small, but there is information on the publisher, date, etc. Wade Kotter -- Dr. Wade Kotter Social Sciences Music Librarian Professor of Library Science Adjunct Faculty, Anthropology Stewart Library Weber State University 2901 University Circle Ogden, UT 84408-2901 Voice: 801-626-7458 Fax: 801-626-7045 wkot...@weber.edu http://library.weber.edu/cm/wkotter On 2/8/2011 at 12:02 PM, in message AANLkTikJ8x_iCfdVV9wV0zrnHOhAr3XK5p74=tub4...@mail.gmail.com, Kim Patrick Clow telem...@gmail.com wrote: Good day: Someone here in New York has asked me about an edition of Delalande's Symphonies pour la soupir du Roi, and have said they can't locate a modern edition. Could anyone help with some leads, or even where the original source(s) are? Thank you kindly, Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Delalande's Symphonies pour la soupir du Roi
Thank you so much. I am in the New York City area, do you have any leads for that? A conductor here in NYC wants the music for a concert in March (a rather tight deadline). But I could enter the music rather quickly and generate parts) IF I have a score. Thanks again for all your hard work! Kim On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 2:13 PM, Wade KOTTER wkot...@weber.edu wrote: Kim: I've sent you the result of a WorldCat search for Delaland symphonies. Doesn't seem to be a complete edition, but selections are available. If you want more detail of individual library holdings, please contact me. In most cases the number of holdings is small, but there is information on the publisher, date, etc. Wade Kotter -- Dr. Wade Kotter Social Sciences Music Librarian Professor of Library Science Adjunct Faculty, Anthropology Stewart Library Weber State University 2901 University Circle Ogden, UT 84408-2901 Voice: 801-626-7458 Fax: 801-626-7045 wkot...@weber.edu http://library.weber.edu/cm/wkotter On 2/8/2011 at 12:02 PM, in message AANLkTikJ8x_iCfdVV9wV0zrnHOhAr3XK5p74=tub4...@mail.gmail.com, Kim Patrick Clow telem...@gmail.com wrote: Good day: Someone here in New York has asked me about an edition of Delalande's Symphonies pour la soupir du Roi, and have said they can't locate a modern edition. Could anyone help with some leads, or even where the original source(s) are? Thank you kindly, Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Delalande's Symphonies pour la soupir du Roi
Kim: Your friend might also want to consult the following for information about the manuscripts: A Thematic Catalogue of the Works of Michel-Richard de Lalande (1657–1726). By Lionel Sawkins, . pp. lxvii + 700. (Oxford University Press, Oxford and New York, 2005, £125. ISBN 0-19-816368-6.) Michel-Richard Delalande ou Le Lully latin. By Catherine Massip. . pp. 160. Mélophiles. (Éditions Papillon, Geneva, 2005, €13.95. ISBN 2-940310-21-1.) I would assume that one or both of these is available at an academic library in New York. Wade -- Dr. Wade Kotter Social Sciences Music Librarian Professor of Library Science Adjunct Faculty, Anthropology Stewart Library Weber State University 2901 University Circle Ogden, UT 84408-2901 Voice: 801-626-7458 Fax: 801-626-7045 wkot...@weber.edu http://library.weber.edu/cm/wkotter On 2/8/2011 at 12:02 PM, in message AANLkTikJ8x_iCfdVV9wV0zrnHOhAr3XK5p74=tub4...@mail.gmail.com, Kim Patrick Clow telem...@gmail.com wrote: Good day: Someone here in New York has asked me about an edition of Delalande's Symphonies pour la soupir du Roi, and have said they can't locate a modern edition. Could anyone help with some leads, or even where the original source(s) are? Thank you kindly, Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Delalande's Symphonies pour la soupir du Roi
No problem, Kim. The most commonly held score is the extracts published in 1965 by Editions Costallat. In New York, this edition is held by Columbia, Cornell, Eastman School of Music, Queens College, SUNY Buffalo, and Vassar. Note that it is cataloged under de Lalande instead of Delalande. Hope this helps. Wade -- Dr. Wade Kotter Social Sciences Music Librarian Professor of Library Science Adjunct Faculty, Anthropology Stewart Library Weber State University 2901 University Circle Ogden, UT 84408-2901 Voice: 801-626-7458 Fax: 801-626-7045 wkot...@weber.edu http://library.weber.edu/cm/wkotter On 2/8/2011 at 12:37 PM, in message AANLkTikdiGfF9pjHN=ihf_jcwtmwggdzu9upxbmby...@mail.gmail.com, Kim Patrick Clow telem...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you so much. I am in the New York City area, do you have any leads for that? A conductor here in NYC wants the music for a concert in March (a rather tight deadline). But I could enter the music rather quickly and generate parts) IF I have a score. Thanks again for all your hard work! Kim On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 2:13 PM, Wade KOTTER wkot...@weber.edu wrote: Kim: I've sent you the result of a WorldCat search for Delaland symphonies. Doesn't seem to be a complete edition, but selections are available. If you want more detail of individual library holdings, please contact me. In most cases the number of holdings is small, but there is information on the publisher, date, etc. Wade Kotter -- Dr. Wade Kotter Social Sciences Music Librarian Professor of Library Science Adjunct Faculty, Anthropology Stewart Library Weber State University 2901 University Circle Ogden, UT 84408-2901 Voice: 801-626-7458 Fax: 801-626-7045 wkot...@weber.edu http://library.weber.edu/cm/wkotter On 2/8/2011 at 12:02 PM, in message AANLkTikJ8x_iCfdVV9wV0zrnHOhAr3XK5p74=tub4...@mail.gmail.com, Kim Patrick Clow telem...@gmail.com wrote: Good day: Someone here in New York has asked me about an edition of Delalande's Symphonies pour la soupir du Roi, and have said they can't locate a modern edition. Could anyone help with some leads, or even where the original source(s) are? Thank you kindly, Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Delalande's Symphonies pour la soupir du Roi
The composer’s name comes in various recognized spellings. The title of the music may be more definite in its spelling: Simphonies pour les Soupers du Roy Unless there is an intended pun soupir is a different matter than souper. Klaus From: Kim Patrick Clow telem...@gmail.com To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 8:02:57 PM Subject: [Finale] O.T. Delalande's Symphonies pour la soupir du Roi Good day: Someone here in New York has asked me about an edition of Delalande's Symphonies pour la soupir du Roi, and have said they can't locate a modern edition. Could anyone help with some leads, or even where the original source(s) are? Thank you kindly, Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Delalande's Symphonies pour la soupir du Roi
Well, if the king were feeling a tad madrigalesque at the time he may have very well sighed at his supper! (When I used to here these on the radio the title was always given in English.) ajr Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre yorkmaster...@yahoo.com wrote: The composer’s name comes in various recognized spellings. The title of the music may be more definite in its spelling: Simphonies pour les Soupers du Roy Unless there is an intended pun soupir is a different matter than souper. Klaus From: Kim Patrick Clow telem...@gmail.com To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 8:02:57 PM Subject: [Finale] O.T. Delalande's Symphonies pour la soupir du Roi Good day: Someone here in New York has asked me about an edition of Delalande's Symphonies pour la soupir du Roi, and have said they can't locate a modern edition. Could anyone help with some leads, or even where the original source(s) are? Thank you kindly, Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] dotted notes
On 8 Feb 2011 at 16:29, Florence + Michael wrote: Ah yes, I'd forgotten how rude and condescending you can be. Why can't you just state your point of view without insulting people? This is not about connoisseurship -- it's about facts. There's a long history among music lovers of extending one's statements about music beyond what is supported by actual evidence. This seems like just such a case. Pertaining to how sure I am, I won't go into all the details of how many Chopin facsimiles I've seen or what I know about Henle Urtext editions: I'll just say that I would bet a considerable sum of money on those particular beamings and shared noteheads being the same in the Henle edition and in Chopin's manuscript. That's not at all the same thing as asserting that the Henle beamings/noteheads are Chopin's. I'll also point out, once more, that the example Steve posted is indeed directly related to the original discussion, since it contains noteheads shared by dotted notes. It's got notes and key signatures, too It must mean something! -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Urtext (was: dotted notes)
On 8 Feb 2011 at 15:10, dc wrote: Obviously, there's Urtext and Urtext... Excellent example. Even critical editions can be incredibly unreliable. The original publication of the volume of early symphonies in the Neue Mozart Ausgabe (1956, I believe, hint, hint) was TERRIBLE. It was much like the edition you described, with editorial notes that even managed to reverse the derivation, i.e., things that were marked as being in the autograph were not, and things that were marked as being editorial were actually in the autograph. I've done the collation myself -- it was an early assignment in a graduate course on Mozart's symphonies, obviously with the pedagogical point that we can't trust even the most august and scholarly editions to be trustworthy at all. If, however, you bought the paperback NMA (as I did), you got the late 1980s complete revision of these problematic issues from the 50s. This greatly annoyed many of the original subscribers, who were stuck with the faulty original editions. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] giant fermatas
I have been finding more and more use of giant fermatas, especially in operatic rep transcriptions; is there a giant fermata hidden somewhere amongst the myriad random marks? I made my own, but it looks a little lame in my opinion, especially as it doesn't really have the same graceful serif that the regular fermata has. Or does someone have it included in their plugins, perhaps? Also a suggestion to the developers; make the dotted line smart shape be attachable to two different expressive texts (i.e. molto rit. - - - - - - - a tempo), which then will readily transfer to all parts without having to go and draw them in all over the place when you start the extraction process. Also, I really hate having to fiddle with the start and endpoints as they will frequently collide with the very thing you're linking. Michael Wittenburg ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Fin 11 to fin 10?
A friend is using Finale 2011, while I don't upgrade that often and use 2010. (Both Windows). What is the optimal way for me to read files he sends me? cd -- http://members.cox.net/dershem/index.html http://dershem.livejournal.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Fin 11 to fin 10?
Nope, not really. You can sorta use music XML but it's not an idea solution. Your friend could reinstall his version of 2010 and use that. Sent from my iSomething On Feb 8, 2011, at 8:56 PM, dershem ders...@cox.net wrote: A friend is using Finale 2011, while I don't upgrade that often and use 2010. (Both Windows). What is the optimal way for me to read files he sends me? cd -- http://members.cox.net/dershem/index.html http://dershem.livejournal.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Fin 11 to fin 10?
dershem wrote: A friend is using Finale 2011, while I don't upgrade that often and use 2010. (Both Windows). What is the optimal way for me to read files he sends me? If you just read the files, you can use Finale Notepad 2011, or the free download, Finale Reader. Unless the files he is sending are quite rudimentary, however, I doubt you will be able to edit the Finale files with either of those products. ns ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
