Re: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos
On Jul 2, 2006, at 5:23 AM, Owain Sutton wrote: One is creating every conceivable block in advance, to ensure that every ligature can be preserved. The more practical situation is making a smaller set of blocks which enables the printing of some common ligatures, at the expense of others. I agreed with you too soon RE the number of blocks required to notate 16th-c. ligatures. Now I've done the math, and find that beside brevis blocks (which have use outside of ligatures), exactly 88 blocks are required to print every possible white-note ligature except some hypothetical outré and bizarre forms (an upstem longa on two ledger lines above the staff, for instance). The black notes? Any music printer of this period would have them, since Gregorian missals and breviaries would have made up the firm's bread and butter. A surviving handwritten list of punches and matrices reproduced in the book I've been referencing confirms this. Another interesting point of possible relevance here is that apparently few copies of any one block were kept on hand (this goes for text as well as music), so that compositors were kept very busy indeed, resetting the text almost every line, or even partial line, and sending the page through the press many times before it was complete. Does Finale ship with fonts which cover every possible detail of musical notation? ;) No, but can it be made to cover them? Yes. Do engravers regularly make the effort to fill such gaps? Likewise yes. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos
At 10:23 AM +0100 7/2/06, Owain Sutton wrote: There's a huge difference. One is creating every conceivable block in advance, to ensure that every ligature can be preserved. The more practical situation is making a smaller set of blocks which enables the printing of some common ligatures, at the expense of others. When theory meets practicality, I suspect that practicality always wins out in the beginning, theory in the end. The process of designing and cutting or casting type was labor intensive, as was most everything prior to 19th century industrialization, and therefore required the investment of resources. One would have created the type needed for the jobs being processed, and no more. Ligatures were so ingrained that they hung on for much longer than there was any need for them, but they were actually no longer needed after the 15th-16th century simplifications in notation. Same thing over and over in history. There may have been only 3 or 4 rhythmic modes actually used by the Parisian group in the late 12th century, but the theorists eventually completed the system, which could then be used by composers even after they had adopted the more flexible Fanconian notation. Modal-transposing key signatures hung on well into the 18th century, even though the modes they were created for generally did not, but theorists gradually won out and the result was modern key signatures. When you're hiring and paying musicians, never hire more than you actually need. Until you can convince large numbers of singers that it's worthwhile to donate their time and talent in large choruses. Does Finale ship with fonts which cover every possible detail of musical notation? ;) Can "every possible detail of musical notation" even be defined? (Which I suspect is your point!) John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrew Stiller > Sent: 01 July 2006 21:59 > To: finale@shsu.edu > Subject: Re: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos > > > > On Jun 30, 2006, at 4:42 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: > > >> > >> Anyway, my central point still stands: printers--or at least > >> this one, > >> major, printer--had the ability and willingness to produce > ligatures > >> when called upon to do so. > >> > > > > No, the point doesn't stand, you haven't demonstrated that specific > > blocks were created for individual circumstances, only that > an unknown > > quantity of blocks was available for use. > > > > To me, this is a distinction without a difference. > There's a huge difference. One is creating every conceivable block in advance, to ensure that every ligature can be preserved. The more practical situation is making a smaller set of blocks which enables the printing of some common ligatures, at the expense of others. Does Finale ship with fonts which cover every possible detail of musical notation? ;) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos
On Jun 30, 2006, at 4:42 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: Anyway, my central point still stands: printers--or at least this one, major, printer--had the ability and willingness to produce ligatures when called upon to do so. No, the point doesn't stand, you haven't demonstrated that specific blocks were created for individual circumstances, only that an unknown quantity of blocks was available for use. To me, this is a distinction without a difference. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrew Stiller > Sent: 30 June 2006 20:19 > To: finale@shsu.edu > Subject: Re: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos > > > > On Jun 29, 2006, at 4:11 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: > > Do the exponential calculations of > > how many different pieces would be needed to cover every > possibility, > > and still tell me it may be assumed that they all existed! > > > > No, you're right. I imagine Attaignant and the others made > the special > blocks as needed, and once created had them on hand for any future > recurrence. Sort of like the F# horn crooks for the _Farewell_ > Symphony. > > Anyway, my central point still stands: printers--or at least > this one, > major, printer--had the ability and willingness to produce ligatures > when called upon to do so. > No, the point doesn't stand, you haven't demonstrated that specific blocks were created for individual circumstances, only that an unknown quantity of blocks was available for use. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos
On Jun 29, 2006, at 4:11 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: Do the exponential calculations of how many different pieces would be needed to cover every possibility, and still tell me it may be assumed that they all existed! No, you're right. I imagine Attaignant and the others made the special blocks as needed, and once created had them on hand for any future recurrence. Sort of like the F# horn crooks for the _Farewell_ Symphony. Anyway, my central point still stands: printers--or at least this one, major, printer--had the ability and willingness to produce ligatures when called upon to do so. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christopher Smith > Sent: 29 June 2006 20:20 > To: finale@shsu.edu > Subject: Re: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos > > > > On Jun 29, 2006, at 2:31 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: > >> > > > > Each separate note has its own type block, including the staff > > lines. But the blocks include all those needed to produce > > ligatures; the page in question shows, for example, both open and > > filled diagonal "slide" ligatures, each comprised of two > adjoining > > type blocks with the beginning and end of the ligature > > respectively. From this it may be assumed that such 2-piece > > diagonals must have been available for every interval and at every > > staff position. No, it can't be assumed. You'd need a laborious tally of the use of ligatures. It *has* been done for Petrucci prints, and he only had a dozen or so special ligature blocks. Do the exponential calculations of how many different pieces would be needed to cover every possibility, and still tell me it may be assumed that they all existed! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos
I use Chord Tool to assign figured bass, works like a charm! Martin On Jun 29, 2006, at 3:20 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: Finale can only do ligatures using movable lead type!? Wow, and I thought it was a kludge to get figured bass in using the lyrics tool! (big grin) 8-)=) Chrisotpher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Martin Banner [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos
On Jun 29, 2006, at 2:31 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: Each separate note has its own type block, including the staff lines. But the blocks include all those needed to produce ligatures; the page in question shows, for example, both open and filled diagonal "slide" ligatures, each comprised of two adjoining type blocks with the beginning and end of the ligature respectively. From this it may be assumed that such 2-piece diagonals must have been available for every interval and at every staff position. Because *every* note form completely filled the width of its block, it was easy enough to put together ligatures of 3, 4, however many notes simply by adjoining blocks for the correct note forms. I suspect that something similar would be the way to compile ligatures in Finale! Finale can only do ligatures using movable lead type!? Wow, and I thought it was a kludge to get figured bass in using the lyrics tool! (big grin) 8-)=) Chrisotpher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos
On Jun 28, 2006, at 3:05 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: A page of Mouton's _Messe d'Allemaigne_, as printed by Attaignant and reproduced in _Pierre Attaignant: Royal Printer of Music_ by Daniel Heartz, displays several 3-note ligatures, in a variety of forms. Would these be formed simply by placing the type for individual notes alongside one another, rather than having specific ligature type? Petrucci certainly had the latter, but only for a limited number of two-note ligatures. Each separate note has its own type block, including the staff lines. But the blocks include all those needed to produce ligatures; the page in question shows, for example, both open and filled diagonal "slide" ligatures, each comprised of two adjoining type blocks with the beginning and end of the ligature respectively. From this it may be assumed that such 2-piece diagonals must have been available for every interval and at every staff position. Because *every* note form completely filled the width of its block, it was easy enough to put together ligatures of 3, 4, however many notes simply by adjoining blocks for the correct note forms. I suspect that something similar would be the way to compile ligatures in Finale! Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos
At 8:05 PM +0100 6/28/06, Owain Sutton wrote: > A page of Mouton's _Messe d'Allemaigne_, as printed by Attaignant and reproduced in _Pierre Attaignant: Royal Printer of Music_ by Daniel Heartz, displays several 3-note ligatures, in a variety of forms. Would these be formed simply by placing the type for individual notes alongside one another, rather than having specific ligature type? Petrucci certainly had the latter, but only for a limited number of two-note ligatures. It would depend on the ligature. Certainly one with a backwards-turned final note above the preceding note (yeah, I know there's a specific name for that, but I'm too lazy to go look it up) could not be constructed with a separate piece of type, quite apart from needing a variety of stem lengths to cover all situations. But I would imagine that some compound ligatures would have been feasible. John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrew Stiller > Sent: 28 June 2006 19:33 > To: finale@shsu.edu > Subject: Re: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos > > > > On Jun 28, 2006, at 10:02 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > In reply to various comments: ligatures may have survived, > but I cannot > > think of any examples exceeding a pair of notes. > > A page of Mouton's _Messe d'Allemaigne_, as printed by Attaignant and > reproduced in _Pierre Attaignant: Royal Printer of Music_ by Daniel > Heartz, displays several 3-note ligatures, in a variety of forms. > Would these be formed simply by placing the type for individual notes alongside one another, rather than having specific ligature type? Petrucci certainly had the latter, but only for a limited number of two-note ligatures. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos
On Jun 28, 2006, at 10:02 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In reply to various comments: ligatures may have survived, but I cannot think of any examples exceeding a pair of notes. A page of Mouton's _Messe d'Allemaigne_, as printed by Attaignant and reproduced in _Pierre Attaignant: Royal Printer of Music_ by Daniel Heartz, displays several 3-note ligatures, in a variety of forms. Also, colouration consisted of black and white notation (simple to do when printing black ink on white paper) but red (and blue) notation disappeared because of the complex process of several passes with different coloured inks. Though this is true in the long term, it certainly didn't happen quickly enough to have influenced notation. The volume referenced above includes at least one Attaignant facsimile showing mixed red-and-black printing not in the music, but in the words of a title and dedication. Since the printing issues are the same, this shows that mid-16th c. printers were perfectly prepared to handle red notation if it were handed them. That it was not cannot, therefore, be attributed to any pressure on notational conventions by technology. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos
At 10:02 AM -0400 6/28/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In reply to various comments: ligatures may have survived, but I cannot think of any examples exceeding a pair of notes. Agreed, 2-note ligatures with opposite propriety are the large majority. Throughout most periods compositional changes drive notational changes, I agree, but I do believe notation drove composition at the beginning of the sixteenth century, and I think the same may happen now. I've been trying to think of examples of this, and I come up empty. Would you care to elaborate? Yes, that was the period in which typeset music joined manuscript music (which it NEVER completely replaced!), but the point of the typesetting was to duplicate the highest quality hand copying at a drastically reduced cost. I honestly cannot think of any example of notational practice driving stylistic change, which in any case was ongoing from about 1430 through about 1620 (without even attempting to address the huge changes in both style and notation in the early 17th century!). John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 28 June 2006 15:02 > To: finale@shsu.edu > Subject: RE: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos > > > In reply to various comments: ligatures may have survived, > but I cannot > think of any examples exceeding a pair of notes. Absolutely - at least, not with movable type. And there's cases in Petrucci where longer ligatures were broken into two-note groupings, an arrangement which then persists in later (manuscript) sources. The limitations of his system had a profound influence, obliterating complex ligatures. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos
At 07:11 PM 6/27/06 -0400, David W. Fenton wrote: >But it seems to me that in the historical example, there was no >resulting limitation on the musical expression of the composers, as I >believe Dennis is suggesting is the case with the impoverished >notational vocabulary of primitive notation software (I would note >that the Finale shape designer, however maligned it may be by all of >us who've been frustrated by its idiosyncracies, allows the creation >of just about any symbol or shape you'd desire; that doesn't cover >all elements of notational innovation, but it at least shows, I >think, a degree of planning for some flexibility on the part of >Finale's early designers). The key words are your last ones: Finale's early designers -- emphasis on the 'early'. The advanced features of Finale lay dormant for years, including the shape designer, key signatures, and time signatures. Some, such as metrical independence of parts or metrics-free entry, were never begun. It's prettier and easier, but in terms of contemporary notation per se, there is little I can do in Finale 2006 that I couldn't do over 13 years ago (albeit much less conveniently) in Finale 2.2. Much of what can be done remains kludgy and requires significant learning, which is a barrier to contemporary notation's more widespread use when Finale and Sibelius dominate the marketplace. Before music software, I taught the range of notation from traditional notes through graphical notation -- in elementary school. In those same schools today, they are using Sibelius, pounding out plain old-fashioned notes in plain old-fashioned rhythms. That's all they have (and teachers certainly aren't going to make their jobs any harder by rejecting the use of computers). I don't think the influence of conservatism in notation software can be underestimated. Future history may have some interesting reflections. Dennis -- Please participate in my latest project: http://maltedmedia.com/waam/ My blog: http://maltedmedia.com/bathory/waam-blog.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos
In reply to various comments: ligatures may have survived, but I cannot think of any examples exceeding a pair of notes. Also, colouration consisted of black and white notation (simple to do when printing black ink on white paper) but red (and blue) notation disappeared because of the complex process of several passes with different coloured inks. Throughout most periods compositional changes drive notational changes, I agree, but I do believe notation drove composition at the beginning of the sixteenth century, and I think the same may happen now. There are often discussions on this list about significant functional improvements that ought to be made to Finale and all we get are "pretty things" that do not address fundamental errors in the original data model of Finale. These will forever be "broken as designed" and there are currently no signs on the horizon of new products that are not limited by the same flaws. Regards, Michael Lawlor mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos
On 27 Jun 2006 at 12:18, John Howell wrote: > At 8:40 AM -0400 6/27/06, David W. Fenton wrote: > >On 26 Jun 2006 at 22:57, Owain Sutton wrote: > > > >> > -Original Message- > >> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton > >> > Sent: 26 June 2006 20:18 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: > >> > [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos > >> > > >> > On 26 Jun 2006 at 7:59, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> > > >> > > The same happened in the early sixteenth century. All the > >> > > ligatures and colouration that made 15th century music so > >> > > complex (e.g. mensuration canons) disappeared with the > >> > > introduction of printed music using movable type. > > In comparison with 14th century notation, 15th > century was already simplified! . . . But which is the cart, and which the horse? I'm suggesting that the notation followed innovations in style, not the other way around. The only example of the latter I can think of is the invention of Mode 2 in pre-Garlandian modal music. > . . . My students in > Early Music Literature routinely transcribe a > 15th century chanson into modern notation, and > learn to read the older notation as they do so. > I would NEVER ask beginners to transcribe--or > perform from--the notation used routinely by > Machaut! I don't see the point of the observation, however much it seems reasonable. > > > > > >> > I think you're reversing cause and effect. > >> > >> What do you mean by this? That ligatures and coloration created > >> complexity (not necessarily true), or that movable type > >> precipitated the disappearance of most ligatures (true)? > > > >That the change in musical style was precipitated by the type, rather > >than that the type was created because of the changes in musical > >style. My understanding of the history of this is that the change in > >musical style came first and drove the notational simplifications > >that are exhibited in the earliest musical type. > > I may just be dense this morning, but it seems as > if you are arguing both sides at the same time. The first sentence of the paragraph is intended to capture the cart- before-the-horse version of the argument (and what I believed was being asserted), while the second gives what I consider to be the correct causal ordering. > Probably not. In my experience, nobody bothers > developing new notational conventions until new > developments in musical style demand them. Guido > developed his staff notation in the 11th century > because he was a teacher teaching by ear, and saw > the potential inherent in a notation system. > (OK, not a style change, but a practical > educational need.) He did not notate rhythms > because they were unimportant in that style (and > that IS related to style). The Parisians were > apparently singing music rhythmically in the > latter 12th century and needed a way to notate > it, so developed the system of rhythmic modes, > USING THE NOTATION (i.e. ligatures) THEY WERE > FAMILIAR WITH. Franko et al. in the latter 13th > century assigned durational value to specific > note shapes for the first time, USING THE > NOTATION HE WAS FAMILIAR WITH, so a given part > could contain flexible rhythmic combinations. > His mensuration signs continued in use for > several centuries, and his notation for rests is > still in use! De Vitry, around 1320, expanded > that system and championed the introduction of > both duple (imperfect) subdivision and coloration > (red ink) to indicate it, because the music he > was composing needed them. This is the way I'd say it all happened. > The biggest change in the 15th century was the > shift from black notation to white notation > (possibly brought about, as I have read, by the > widespread introduction of paper rather than > vellum, and the tendency of the paper fibers to > allow the ink of the time to run as it dried), > which made coloration simpler because scribes > could simply revert to the older black notation > THEY WERE FAMILIAR WITH and give it new meaning > (although some fancy mss. continued to use red > ink for coloration; printers' ink is pasty and > would not flow in a quill). Ligatures continued > in use because they were part of the inherited > vocabulary, as were the mensuration signs which > had already been used for such things as > mensuration cannons and continued to be used as > that became a more normal part of the style. > > Yes, the
RE: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos
At 8:40 AM -0400 6/27/06, David W. Fenton wrote: On 26 Jun 2006 at 22:57, Owain Sutton wrote: > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton > Sent: 26 June 2006 20:18 > To: finale@shsu.edu > Subject: Re: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos > > On 26 Jun 2006 at 7:59, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > The same happened in the early sixteenth century. All the > > ligatures and colouration that made 15th century music so complex > > (e.g. mensuration canons) disappeared with the introduction of > > printed music using movable type. In comparison with 14th century notation, 15th century was already simplified! My students in Early Music Literature routinely transcribe a 15th century chanson into modern notation, and learn to read the older notation as they do so. I would NEVER ask beginners to transcribe--or perform from--the notation used routinely by Machaut! > > > I think you're reversing cause and effect. What do you mean by this? That ligatures and coloration created complexity (not necessarily true), or that movable type precipitated the disappearance of most ligatures (true)? That the change in musical style was precipitated by the type, rather than that the type was created because of the changes in musical style. My understanding of the history of this is that the change in musical style came first and drove the notational simplifications that are exhibited in the earliest musical type. I may just be dense this morning, but it seems as if you are arguing both sides at the same time. Probably not. In my experience, nobody bothers developing new notational conventions until new developments in musical style demand them. Guido developed his staff notation in the 11th century because he was a teacher teaching by ear, and saw the potential inherent in a notation system. (OK, not a style change, but a practical educational need.) He did not notate rhythms because they were unimportant in that style (and that IS related to style). The Parisians were apparently singing music rhythmically in the latter 12th century and needed a way to notate it, so developed the system of rhythmic modes, USING THE NOTATION (i.e. ligatures) THEY WERE FAMILIAR WITH. Franko et al. in the latter 13th century assigned durational value to specific note shapes for the first time, USING THE NOTATION HE WAS FAMILIAR WITH, so a given part could contain flexible rhythmic combinations. His mensuration signs continued in use for several centuries, and his notation for rests is still in use! De Vitry, around 1320, expanded that system and championed the introduction of both duple (imperfect) subdivision and coloration (red ink) to indicate it, because the music he was composing needed them. The biggest change in the 15th century was the shift from black notation to white notation (possibly brought about, as I have read, by the widespread introduction of paper rather than vellum, and the tendency of the paper fibers to allow the ink of the time to run as it dried), which made coloration simpler because scribes could simply revert to the older black notation THEY WERE FAMILIAR WITH and give it new meaning (although some fancy mss. continued to use red ink for coloration; printers' ink is pasty and would not flow in a quill). Ligatures continued in use because they were part of the inherited vocabulary, as were the mensuration signs which had already been used for such things as mensuration cannons and continued to be used as that became a more normal part of the style. Yes, the introduction of movable type forced certain changes, just as Dennis B-K has noted that the introduction of Finale (and other graphic notation programs) has forced certain changes, or rather stood in the way of further developments in notation which might have already taken place if composers were free to invent their own new notational conventions. (Which, of course, they are still perfectly free to do by hand, which with the ubiquity of copy machines is no longer terribly difficult to produce and distribute.) There is no question that 16th century notation changed, but it's interesting that while styles certainly did change, new notation was not one of the changes those styles demanded. The new technology DID force some changes, an ligatures were easier to produce in Petrucci's triple-impression printing than in Attaignant's single-impression method. Ligatures certainly did not disappear, since they had been part of the ms. vocabulary for centuries (and therefore musicians knew how to read them, which we do not and have to painfully learn!), but there were fewer and they all tended to be ligatures with opposite propriety, making it easy to realize them as representing two semibreves. But they
RE: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos
On 26 Jun 2006 at 22:57, Owain Sutton wrote: > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton > > Sent: 26 June 2006 20:18 > > To: finale@shsu.edu > > Subject: Re: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos > > > > On 26 Jun 2006 at 7:59, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > The same happened in the early sixteenth century. All the > > > ligatures and colouration that made 15th century music so complex > > > (e.g. mensuration canons) disappeared with the introduction of > > > printed music using movable type. > > > > I think you're reversing cause and effect. > > What do you mean by this? That ligatures and coloration created > complexity (not necessarily true), or that movable type precipitated > the disappearance of most ligatures (true)? That the change in musical style was precipitated by the type, rather than that the type was created because of the changes in musical style. My understanding of the history of this is that the change in musical style came first and drove the notational simplifications that are exhibited in the earliest musical type. Keep in mind also that not all of the earliest musical type lacked ligatures (I can't see that coloration was ever dropped, as it continued to be used into the early 18th century, though in much more limited circumstances than previously). -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton > Sent: 26 June 2006 20:18 > To: finale@shsu.edu > Subject: Re: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos > > > On 26 Jun 2006 at 7:59, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > The same happened in the early sixteenth century. All the ligatures > > and colouration that made 15th century music so complex (e.g. > > mensuration canons) disappeared with the introduction of > printed music > > using movable type. > > I think you're reversing cause and effect. > > -- > David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com > David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ > What do you mean by this? That ligatures and coloration created complexity (not necessarily true), or that movable type precipitated the disappearance of most ligatures (true)? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos
On 26 Jun 2006 at 7:59, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > The same happened in the early sixteenth century. All the ligatures > and colouration that made 15th century music so complex (e.g. > mensuration canons) disappeared with the introduction of printed music > using movable type. I think you're reversing cause and effect. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Notation; was RE: Tremolos
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 13:23:51 -0400 From: Dennis Bathory-Kitsz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Finale] Tremolos To: finale@shsu.edu Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "In other words, what isn't easy isn't done, and what isn't done isn't supported. This limits the composer's opportunities to the software's capabilties. 'Writing to the software' has become a creativity curse for those not strong enough to push back at technology. Any push back, however, may lead to a more extreme segregation or stratification of composers into a collaborative class and a rejectionist class..." "Once we cycle back out of these conservative artistic times and experiment once becomes part of the composer's attitude, the software situation (and codification dilemma) may improve -- or, as I suggested above, it may result in further stratification of composers into a collaborative class and a rejectionist class." Dennis I can testify to this change. I have some old pieces of mine that I keep intending to set, but "Finale" makes life so difficult, I do a little bit and put it aside. Even though I do not believe Finale is a composers tool, I am aware that none of my recent works pose significant problems within Finale. It is probably happening subconsciously, but I wonder what the cumulative effect will be after a generation of composers who may know no viable alternative way of working. The same happened in the early sixteenth century. All the ligatures and colouration that made 15th century music so complex (e.g. mensuration canons) disappeared with the introduction of printed music using movable type. I suspect something similar is happening now and there will be no cycling "back out of these conservative artistic times." But there will be new developments, so I do not think we need worry! Regards, Michael Lawlor mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
