Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 21.02.2006 Mark D Lew wrote:

I'm still waiting to hear the answer about Verdi's supposed overture for Barbiere.  I'm 
guessing "th" is making some sort of oblique reference to one of Verdi's known 
overtures having once been associated with Rossini's opera.  If it were something else, 
surely I'd have heard of it.


If you find out anything else, please let me know.


But perhaps the Carnicer piece is something that you'd be interested in looking for.  
Google turns up a bit more information -- in particular at 
, the site of the publisher Tritó.


That's also very useful information, and I will investigate this.

Thanks so much for digging this up!

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Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Mark D Lew]

On Feb 18, 2006, at 4:08 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:


On 18.02.2006 Michael Cook wrote:
Rossini had written an overture for "Barbiere" composed of Spanish 
themes, but at the last minute decided that it wasn't good enough.


Really? Now this gets really interesting. Does this "original" 
Barbiere oversture survive? Does anyone know how to get it? Is it 
published?


This would be the absolute ideal piece for a programme I am 
investigating, so if anyone can help, please...


In inquired about this on an opera list I frequent.  Everyone agrees 
that it's lost, but a few comments you might find interesting, from 
posters I consider knowledgeable and reliable:


==

It is not clear what happened to it so far as I know.  One article some
years ago in a music journal claimed that the "Spanish" overture was
lost somewhere between Bologna and Rome and because Rossini was already
running late with his music he simply substituted a ready made
overture.

However, I have also read accounts that he was dissatisfied with the
original Overture and destroyed it.

I would have thought that if it was known to exist somewhere it would
have been performed by now.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins

==

I can't quote chapter and verse for this as I don't have the book to 
hand,
but I'm pretty certain Richard Osborne, in his biography of Rossini, 
cites a
letter from the composer to a friend still in Rome following the 
"Barbiere"

debacle begging him to retrieve the score parts for the "overture with
Spanish themes" which Rossini had presumably written at the last minute,
didn't have a copy of, and wanted to preserve for future performances. 
He
didn't get it, and it's now considered lost ( a great shame, as the 
tightly
dramatic, sonata-form, mainly minor-key "Aureliano/Elisabetta" overture 
sits
very oddly indeed in front of a comedy. Somebody should use the 
otherwise

unperformed "La Pietra del Paragone" prelude instead.)

SJT

===

The "Pietra del Paragone" overture has already been recycled into
Tancredi.

OTOH, no less than Giuseppe Verdi composed an overture for Rossini's
Barbiere.

th.

===

"Giuseppe Verdi composed an overture for Rossini's Barbiere."

Does it survive ? I can't find any reference to a recording, and you'd 
think

there'd be at least one, just for curiosity's sake...

SJT

===

I find this interesting.  Rossini had a good source of Spanish themes
in the tenor Manuel Garcia, who was also a composer.  Later, he had
Spanish music at home when he married Spanish soprano Isabel Angela
Colbran.  Colbran was also a composer.

There is a genuinely Spanish overture to "Barbiere", composed ca. 1819
by Ramon Carnicer, a friend and contemporary of Rossini's.   I have
never heard it.

There is little music of Spanish flavor in "Barbiere".  Accounts of
Garcia's attempt at grafting some into the work on opening night speak
of disastrous results.

Valfer

===

Me again:

I'm still waiting to hear the answer about Verdi's supposed overture 
for Barbiere.  I'm guessing "th" is making some sort of oblique 
reference to one of Verdi's known overtures having once been associated 
with Rossini's opera.  If it were something else, surely I'd have heard 
of it.


But perhaps the Carnicer piece is something that you'd be interested in 
looking for.  Google turns up a bit more information -- in particular 
at , the site of the publisher 
Tritó.


mdl

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Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 18.02.2006 Michael Cook wrote:

In fact: Johannes, why do you need to know the scoring? Has all this discussion 
given you the reply you wanted?


It has indeed. I am planning concert-programmes for our orchestra, and 
it is of some importance to know whether we would have to fly in 3 
Trombonists only for the Barber overture, especially as it was 
considered as an encore. The information I got through all this: There 
are trombone parts, but it is justifyable to play the piece without the 
trombones. Which is good news, since the rest of the programme is 
unlikely to need trombones.


What really interests me is that orginal Barber overture, especially if 
it is built on Spanish themes, it would fit absolutely ideally into one 
of the programmes I am working on.


Thanks for all the discussion, I find these threads are full of 
information which I can use in all sorts of contexts.


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Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 18.02.2006 Michael Cook wrote:
As far as I know, the original overture to "Barbiere" is lost. It is 
certainly not published. 

> 



Thanks. I will investigate this further. If anyone has a hint for more 
information, that would be phantastic.


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Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Raymond Horton]

Our first trombonist growns whenever this shows up.  I'm sure she would 
love to play one of the lower editions.


Michael Cook wrote:

In the Eulenburg score the 1st trombone has some high Cs (measures 
147-9) but I didn't see a high D. In the Dover edition (where all 
three parts are written on one staff, in bass clef) the 1st trombone 
never goes that high: at a quick glance the highest note is an E just 
above middle C.


What is sure is that the trombone parts were not added to this piece: 
they were there already but were removed (or simply not used) for the 
first performance of "Barbiere". The story, if I remember rightly, 
goes something like this: Rossini had written an overture for 
"Barbiere" composed of Spanish themes, but at the last minute decided 
that it wasn't good enough. He didn't have time to compose a new one, 
so he used an overture that he was presumably proud of, having used it 
in two previous operas. He probably had a look at the scoring, quickly 
saw that the piece would work without trombones, and gave the parts to 
the musicians. He didn't make a new version of the score: there was no 
time and this wasn't necessary anyway: he, or any other conductor, 
could conduct from the old score with the trombone parts in it. What 
later happened when the piece became a success and was edited, I do 
not know: the piece has gone through so many editions that it would be 
a huge work of research to find out.


In fact: Johannes, why do you need to know the scoring? Has all this 
discussion given you the reply you wanted?


Michael





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Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Michael Cook]

As far as I know, the original overture to "Barbiere" is lost. It is 
certainly not published. 

> --- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---
> Von: Johannes Gebauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> An: finale@shsu.edu
> Betreff: Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?
> Datum: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 13:08:24 +0100
> 
> On 18.02.2006 Michael Cook wrote:
> > Rossini had written an overture for "Barbiere" composed of Spanish
> themes, but at the last minute decided that it wasn't good enough.
> 
> Really? Now this gets really interesting. Does this "original" Barbiere 
> oversture survive? Does anyone know how to get it? Is it published?
> 
> This would be the absolute ideal piece for a programme I am 
> investigating, so if anyone can help, please...
> 
> Johannes


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Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 18.02.2006 Michael Cook wrote:

Rossini had written an overture for "Barbiere" composed of Spanish themes, but 
at the last minute decided that it wasn't good enough.


Really? Now this gets really interesting. Does this "original" Barbiere 
oversture survive? Does anyone know how to get it? Is it published?


This would be the absolute ideal piece for a programme I am 
investigating, so if anyone can help, please...


Johannes
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Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Michael Cook]

In the Eulenburg score the 1st trombone has some high Cs (measures 
147-9) but I didn't see a high D. In the Dover edition (where all three 
parts are written on one staff, in bass clef) the 1st trombone never 
goes that high: at a quick glance the highest note is an E just above 
middle C.


What is sure is that the trombone parts were not added to this piece: 
they were there already but were removed (or simply not used) for the 
first performance of "Barbiere". The story, if I remember rightly, goes 
something like this: Rossini had written an overture for "Barbiere" 
composed of Spanish themes, but at the last minute decided that it 
wasn't good enough. He didn't have time to compose a new one, so he 
used an overture that he was presumably proud of, having used it in two 
previous operas. He probably had a look at the scoring, quickly saw 
that the piece would work without trombones, and gave the parts to the 
musicians. He didn't make a new version of the score: there was no time 
and this wasn't necessary anyway: he, or any other conductor, could 
conduct from the old score with the trombone parts in it. What later 
happened when the piece became a success and was edited, I do not know: 
the piece has gone through so many editions that it would be a huge 
work of research to find out.


In fact: Johannes, why do you need to know the scoring? Has all this 
discussion given you the reply you wanted?


Michael

On 18 Feb 2006, at 03:30, Raymond Horton wrote:


Michael, please note that I purposely did not say someone ELSE added 
the trombone parts.  I said SOMEONE, specifically to leave open the 
possibility that it was the composer.  I just had the internal 
evidence:  The parts seem to be old, (before the later 19th century 
when the valve tenor trombone took over in Italy, because the first 
part is quite high, putting it sqarely in alto trombone register).  
This would put the parts more likely in the composers pen  than a 
later arranger, if all on I had to guess were the notes themselves.  
Since you have other evidence, that I don't I'll take your word.  
(Although I recall seeing a score, many years ago, with the first part 
not so high, so that is another confusion.  Perhaps Rossini revised it 
for another performance with no alto trombone?)   Does the first 
trombone part you have go up to high D at the breakup strain in the 
middle?


RBH

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Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Raymond Horton]

On 17 Feb 2006, at 19:28, Raymond Horton wrote:

 Somewhere along the way, someone added three trombone and timp parts 
to the overture that are commonly played, and these are in the 
Dover-Ricordi score (I just looked at the latter yesterday, AAMOF.)





Michael Cook wrote:
No, the trombone parts are original Rossini. I don't have access to 
the different versions of this overture that were used for the other 
two operas, but the trombone parts certainly come from one of these 
versions.


___


Michael, please note that I purposely did not say someone ELSE added the 
trombone parts.  I said SOMEONE, specifically to leave open the 
possibility that it was the composer.  I just had the internal 
evidence:  The parts seem to be old, (before the later 19th century when 
the valve tenor trombone took over in Italy, because the first part is 
quite high, putting it sqarely in alto trombone register).  This would 
put the parts more likely in the composers pen  than a later arranger, 
if all on I had to guess were the notes themselves.  Since you have 
other evidence, that I don't I'll take your word.  (Although I recall 
seeing a score, many years ago, with the first part not so high, so that 
is another confusion.  Perhaps Rossini revised it for another 
performance with no alto trombone?)   Does the first trombone part you 
have go up to high D at the breakup strain in the middle?


RBH

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Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Michael Cook]

On 17 Feb 2006, at 19:28, Raymond Horton wrote:

 Somewhere along the way, someone added three trombone and timp parts 
to the overture that are commonly played, and these are in the 
Dover-Ricordi score (I just looked at the latter yesterday, AAMOF.)


No, the trombone parts are original Rossini. I don't have access to the 
different versions of this overture that were used for the other two 
operas, but the trombone parts certainly come from one of these 
versions.


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Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Raymond Horton]

Johannes Gebauer wrote:


On 17.02.2006 Michael Cook wrote:

In my score (Dover reprint of old Ricordi) of the complete opera, the 
overture is:


1fl. + 1picc., 2, 2, 2 - 2, 2, 3 - Timpani, Gran Cassa - Str



Ah, now this is conflicting information. Are there 3 trombones, or are 
there not (this is important for me...).


Johannes



In the reprint ms of the overture that I recall seeing years ago, 
(reprinted at the back of a printed library full score of the opera) 
there were no trombones or timpani.  Somewhere along the way, someone 
added three trombone and timp parts to the overture that are commonly 
played, and these are in the Dover-Ricordi score (I just looked at the 
latter yesterday, AAMOF.)  I don't believe the trombones appear again in 
the entire opera in the Dover-Ricordi score.  



It looks like it can be, and has been, performed either way with 
conviction.  Many years ago I played it under one conductor who kept 
telling us to play softly, since their were no trombones in the ms.  I 
wanted to ask him if we should leave, but I was more shy when I was young.



(Anyone used to hearing the Warner Brothers cartoons will miss the 
trombones, of course.)



RBH
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Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Michael Cook]

It's quite probable that in the first performance of "Barbiere" there 
were no trombones in the overture, since they don't play in the rest of 
the opera. But concert performances of this overture often use 
trombones. The Eulenburg miniature score has the three trombones. It 
also has important rhythmical and harmonic differences with the 
overture in my Ricordi score, and I remember that the Zedda edition has 
other differences.


I know that the Zedda edition is meant to be "critical", but it's 
better to accept that there is no cast-iron "right" version of the 
overture. Rossini adapted the scoring of the piece (used, as I said, 
for two other operas previous to "Barbiere") to what he had at hand. If 
he had trombones available for a performance he would probably have 
used them.


On 17 Feb 2006, at 18:27, Johannes Gebauer wrote:


On 17.02.2006 Michael Cook wrote:
In my score (Dover reprint of old Ricordi) of the complete opera, the 
overture is:

1fl. + 1picc., 2, 2, 2 - 2, 2, 3 - Timpani, Gran Cassa - Str


Ah, now this is conflicting information. Are there 3 trombones, or are 
there not (this is important for me...).


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Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Peter Lockwood]

No trombones in Ricordi critical edition (1969). 2 Trombe, yes, but that
means trumpets...
Peter
At 18:27 17/02/2006, you wrote:
On 17.02.2006 Michael Cook
wrote:
In my score (Dover reprint of
old Ricordi) of the complete opera, the overture is:
1fl. + 1picc., 2, 2, 2 - 2, 2, 3 - Timpani, Gran Cassa -
Str
Ah, now this is conflicting information. Are there 3 trombones, or are
there not (this is important for me...).
Johannes
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Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Peter Lockwood]

In the Zedda critical edition for Ricordi the piccolos do not play in the
overture and Oboe 2 only plays in the Overture.

At 18:08 17/02/2006, you wrote:
In my score (Dover reprint of
old Ricordi) of the complete opera, the overture is:
1fl. + 1picc., 2, 2, 2 - 2, 2, 3 - Timpani, Gran Cassa - Str
'm pretty sure that there are other orchestrations, though, since the
overture was originally written for "Aureliano in Palmira" and
then used in "Elisabetta, Regina d'Ingilterra" and I think that
changes were made each time in the orchestration.
Michael
On 17 Feb 2006, at 17:41, Johannes Gebauer wrote:
If anyone has this at hand,
could you let me know? Only the overture.
Thanks,
Johannes

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Peter Lockwood
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The Netherlands
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Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 17.02.2006 Michael Cook wrote:

In my score (Dover reprint of old Ricordi) of the complete opera, the overture 
is:

1fl. + 1picc., 2, 2, 2 - 2, 2, 3 - Timpani, Gran Cassa - Str


Ah, now this is conflicting information. Are there 3 trombones, or are 
there not (this is important for me...).


Johannes
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Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Johannes Gebauer]

Peter,

thanks, that's great!

Johannes

On 17.02.2006 Peter Lockwood wrote:

Overture:

2 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets in C, 2 bassoons
2 horns in E flat, 2 trumpets in A
Timpani
Gran Cassa
Strings


At 17:41 17/02/2006, you wrote:

If anyone has this at hand, could you let me know? Only the overture.

Thanks,
Johannes




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Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Michael Cook]

In my score (Dover reprint of old Ricordi) of the complete opera, the 
overture is:


1fl. + 1picc., 2, 2, 2 - 2, 2, 3 - Timpani, Gran Cassa - Str

'm pretty sure that there are other orchestrations, though, since the 
overture was originally written for "Aureliano in Palmira" and then 
used in "Elisabetta, Regina d'Ingilterra" and I think that changes were 
made each time in the orchestration.


Michael

On 17 Feb 2006, at 17:41, Johannes Gebauer wrote:


If anyone has this at hand, could you let me know? Only the overture.

Thanks,
Johannes


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Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Peter Lockwood]

Overture:
2 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets in C, 2 bassoons
2 horns in E flat, 2 trumpets in A
Timpani
Gran Cassa
Strings

At 17:41 17/02/2006, you wrote:
If anyone has this at hand,
could you let me know? Only the overture.
Thanks,
Johannes

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[Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Johannes Gebauer]

If anyone has this at hand, could you let me know? Only the overture.

Thanks,
Johannes


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