Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
At 4:10 AM -0400 10/13/12, David H. Bailey wrote: > >I am so glad this discussion has gone on this long -- all this >discussion of mezzo-soprano clef (c on the 2nd line) has given me an >epiphany. I've never fully understood the use of the clefs for >transposition, but now I have learned that reading an F Horn part >(already transposed) as if it had a mezzo-soprano clef will give me the >concert pitch without me having to do mental gymnastics. One of the earliest tenors with New York Pro Musica was Arthur Squires, when the ensemble got started back in the early '50s. They read a lot of their early music from either copies of original manuscripts or from scholarly editions that had kept the original clefs from early manuscripts, as did everyone at that time since that was all that was available. But they also adjusted the pitch at which they performed the music, because for one thing they used women's voices which the Church had forbidden for centuries and simply were not used or written for. Arthur had (no doubt still has!) dead perfect pitch, and simply could not sing at a pitch different from what was on the page without its driving him nuts! But since he had no problem reading any of the 9 movable clefs he transposed mentally, adjusting the accidentals as needed. (Much like a bari sax player reading from a bass clef part and mentally adjusting the accidentals and key signature.) And he had no trouble reading the clefs because in those days EVERYONE in early music had to be able to read them and learned to do so. Knowing the original clefs is also a valuable clue to the range covered by each part, since instrumentation was very seldom indicated but was left up to the discretion of the band leader or choir director and who he had available on any given day. Both scribes and typesetters chose the clefs that kept most of each part within the staff rather than using lots of ledger lines, awkward to hand copy with the way they cut their pens and calling for special pieces of type in early music printing. And that's the problem. You have to be able to read the clefs in the first place. Once you can, then yes, they can be a great help in transposing. But I don't think our music educators in the U.S. have ever considered it necessary or worthwhile to teach them. Bach never wrote for transposing woodwinds at all. (The brass instruments came out of an entirely different tradition.) He simply used the best choice of the 9 clefs. In fact as late as Brahms it was usual to write SATB choral music using soprano, alto, tenor (all C clefs) and bass or baritone (F on the 3rd line) clefs. That (and a lot of OTHER questions regarding pitch standards, to be sure!) makes it difficult for anyone to read or play from the public domain Bach Gesellschaft edition, because they kept all the original clefs. The one transposition that still throws me is Clarinet in A. It's a third transposition, and the clefs are all a third apart, so there should be an easy way to do it, but I've never discovered it. (OK, I just worked through it once again, and soprano clef does it nicely. Which means I just am not very good at thinking in soprano clef (C on the 1st line)!!!) But Bach used it every day both for his soprano choral parts and for a lot of the right-hand parts in his keyboard music. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts & Cinema College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
> Once again we have the assumption that the use of C scores implies anything > whatsoever about the skillset of the people that use them. Not from me.. That's why I used the word 'irrationally'. Steve P. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
On 10/12/2012 11:56 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: [snip] > clef. (One of my comp teachers suggested writing the horn parts on > mezzo-soprano clef, since that has the same lines and spaces as F > transposition, but my skills--I must admit--do not extend to mezzo-soprano > clef, so it always confused me even though I play horn! It also seemed a [snip] I am so glad this discussion has gone on this long -- all this discussion of mezzo-soprano clef (c on the 2nd line) has given me an epiphany. I've never fully understood the use of the clefs for transposition, but now I have learned that reading an F Horn part (already transposed) as if it had a mezzo-soprano clef will give me the concert pitch without me having to do mental gymnastics. Wow -- thank you! -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
On 10/12/2012 10:58 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: [snip] >To state the obvious: everyone has their own limitations, and just >because someone's areas of expertise and specialization are different >from yours doesn't necessarily mean they're less skilled. > [snip] That is very well stated, Darcy! -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
I strongly doubt that Prokofiev was working with transposed scores and editors were changing them, considering his most famous contemporaries (notably Stravinsky and Shosty) used transposed scores. On that evidence alone I infer that Proko wanted his scores in concert pitch. My Dover score for Peter and the Wolf says it is A clarinet on the Instrumentation page, although it is buried in a blob of text. Be that as it may, I always mention the transposition where any score does, with the additional note: sounding as written. I also list any doublings on the instrumentation page. I think that is the clearest practice. Prokofiev had a lot of idiosyncrasies. He always wrote English horn parts on an alto clef, while his F horn parts divide between treble and bass clef. (One of my comp teachers suggested writing the horn parts on mezzo-soprano clef, since that has the same lines and spaces as F transposition, but my skills--I must admit--do not extend to mezzo-soprano clef, so it always confused me even though I play horn! It also seemed a bit precious.) Prokofiev's copyists apparently didn't know what to make of the concert pitch horn parts. Often all the clef changes that are sensible in C but make no sense in F are nevertheless slavishly copied in. There is also occasional inconsistency about which horn bass clef. I remember one of movements of Romeo and Juliet Suite uses a different bass clef than the others (in the transposed horn parts). Parts made from later C scores do not have these issues, but it is interesting to see the challenges the nascent practice introduced. For figuring out which horn bass clef, C scores are a godsend. For example, there is one passage in the Rochberg Trio for piano, clarinet, and horn where the part is low enough that visually it could be either. Thankfully the score is concert pitch, so it removed any doubt about which octave he wanted. Nevertheless, at least one very famous artist has recorded the passage in the wrong octave. (To be fair, it may not be the artist's fault: Rochberg could easily have changed it or clarified it after it was recorded.) On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 10:13 PM, SN jef chippewa < shirl...@newmusicnotation.com> wrote: > > john, you can't extend your experiences with badly done concert pitch > scores to the entire realm of concert pitch scores. and you can't > blame proko for modern editions of his scores. i (don't know for > sure but) would assume the score he submitted and the version he > proofed for publication were transposed. > > >I still get thrown by soprano, mezzo-soprano, and baritone clefs, > >and have to decode tenor clef, all of which Nadia Boulanger > >was still teaching through the mid-20th century. > > well, a lot has happened since the nadia era. make yourself a strong > batch of coffee and look some of it up. > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
john, you can't extend your experiences with badly done concert pitch scores to the entire realm of concert pitch scores. and you can't blame proko for modern editions of his scores. i (don't know for sure but) would assume the score he submitted and the version he proofed for publication were transposed. >I still get thrown by soprano, mezzo-soprano, and baritone clefs, >and have to decode tenor clef, all of which Nadia Boulanger >was still teaching through the mid-20th century. well, a lot has happened since the nadia era. make yourself a strong batch of coffee and look some of it up. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
Further to Robert's point -- to the folks who have this idea that concert pitch scores are somehow "dumbed down," I wonder if you've ever tried to run a rehearsal using one? When there's note-checking to be done, a conductor working from a concert pitch score needs to be able to call out note names to individual players in *their* key -- meaning they need to transpose on the fly every bit as often (possibly more often) as a conductor working from a transposed score. (I should note that the above is often used as an argument *against* concert pitch scores, but you can't really have it both ways -- you can't very well complain that they're "dumbed down" and also complain that they make the conductor work harder in rehearsal.) Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On Oct 12, 2012, at 10:37 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: > Once again we have the assumption that the use of C scores implies anything > whatsoever about the skillset of the people that use them. > > That said, if you can't read C scores, there's a whole lot of important > literature that is a closed book to you. > > On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 8:30 PM, Steve Parker wrote: > >> I'm an old enough repetiteur that standard skillset includes reading and >> reducing at sight orchestral, windband and brassband scores. >> >> C scores give me (irrationally) the same kind of offence I would get from >> transposing the works of Chopin into C major to make them easier to >> learn >> >> Steve P. >> >> On 12 Oct 2012, at 17:11, Patrick Sheehan >> wrote: >> >>> In the same vein for hearing things in your head, EVERY SCORE in this >> world >>> should be a C-Score. EVERY. SCORE. >>> >>> Patrick J. M. Sheehan >>> Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy >>> P. S. Music >>> Host: "The Saturday Blues" on 89.5 WNIJ-FM, 1 pm - 4 pm (CST) & WNIJ.org >>> 1-815-973-2317 (m) >>> >>> patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: David Froom [mailto:dfr...@smcm.edu] >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 12:40 PM >>> To: finale@shsu.edu >>> Subject: Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp. >>> >>> On 2 Oct 2012, at 1:00 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: >>> >>>> One could discuss all day longs things that singers should and should >> not >>>> do. I think books have been written on the subject. But they are beside >>> the >>>> point here. >>>> >>>> What I am saying is, if you want the best performance out of the most >>>> number of singers, I highly recommend providing a C score. I have paid >> the >>>> price for not so doing and I won't make the same mistake twice. >>> >>> Robert is absolutely correct here! This is my experience, even with >>> well-known, successful singers, even those who have sung a lot of >>> contemporary music. They simply want to be able to quickly find their >> pitch >>> from the score, and if they are constantly checking to see who is playing >>> and remembering what that instrument's transposition (at the moment, for >>> scores with switching instruments), it can seriously disrupt a rehearsal >>> and/or a performance. The best singers, if you give them a transposed >>> score, might just ask you to make a C score for them. I'm talking about >>> non-tonal music here. >>> >>> Conductors keep their eyes on the whole thing all the time. Singers have >>> their own part, but in performance need to look out at the audience as >> much >>> as possible, so they jump back to their score for quick reference to >> their >>> part as well as the other instruments, often jumping from instrument to >>> instrument for a reference pitch. They also have to think about dramatic >>> projection, etc. Why make their lives more difficult, or increase even >> by a >>> couple of hours the time needed for learning and rehearsing? >>> >>> My solution is to create a C score for the singer and a transposed score >> for >>> the conductor. Everyone is happy, no one is confused. >>> >>> David Froom >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> Finale mailing list >>> Finale@shsu.edu >>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
At 9:37 PM -0500 10/12/12, Robert Patterson wrote: > >That said, if you can't read C scores, there's a whole lot of important >literature that is a closed book to you. But even if you can, there is information that SHOULD be obvious but is hidden behind the concert pitch score. Case in point. Prokofiev, "Peter & the Wolf." Concert pitch score. I recruited the wind section for our community orchestra, and I wanted to tell the clarinetist which instruments he would need. But Prokofiev did not designate the part (in the score, which is all I had to look at) as either Bb or A clarinet, just "clarinet." He could have, easily enough, but he did not, and it makes a difference on the "Cat" theme. And without seeing the transposed part that the player would have seen, the only way I could figure it out was to go through note by note to check for low Dbs What should have been a simple answer to a simple question was hidden, and even when I found a low Db (concert) I had to guess that there were no instrument changes throughout the clarinet part. I agree that each kind of score has its place and its use, but as a conductor (I was not on this particular concert) I want the necessary information in front of me on the page, and that means seeing the parts exactly as the players will see them. Admittedly my area of special interest happens to be early music rather than atonal or non-tonal music, so my experience in that area is very limited. But well over 90% of ALL music that's performed day in and day out IS tonal and does use key signatures and functional harmony. And part of my frustration is the simple fact that even with parents who were both music educators, I was never exposed to the system of 9 movable clefs (OK, 3 clefs placed in 9 different ways on the staff) that was used, taught, and understood for centuries, until I hit graduate school. (Except of course for alto clef, since I played viola from around the age of 9.) And with that late start I still get thrown by soprano, mezzo-soprano, and baritone clefs, and have to decode tenor clef, all of which Nadia Boulanger was still teaching through the mid-20th century. I still have to think of mezzo-soprano clef (C on the 2nd line) in terms of horn in F, which I learned to read and transpose in junior high school! John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts & Cinema College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
Indeed. Aslo, can we stop pretending that sight-reading tonal, key-signature-based, traditionally-noted scores uses the same skillset as sight-reading non-tonal, non-key-signature, unconventionally-notated scores? I think we've all seen some pretty impressive "repetiteurs" (to use Steve's word) get all tangled up as soon as they are presented with material that's even slightly outside of their usual comfort zone. Which is fine -- we all have things we can't do, because our musical communities are such that we haven't needed to put in the time to learn how to do them. To state the obvious: everyone has their own limitations, and just because someone's areas of expertise and specialization are different from yours doesn't necessarily mean they're less skilled. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On Oct 12, 2012, at 10:37 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: > Once again we have the assumption that the use of C scores implies anything > whatsoever about the skillset of the people that use them. > > That said, if you can't read C scores, there's a whole lot of important > literature that is a closed book to you. > > On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 8:30 PM, Steve Parker wrote: > >> I'm an old enough repetiteur that standard skillset includes reading and >> reducing at sight orchestral, windband and brassband scores. >> >> C scores give me (irrationally) the same kind of offence I would get from >> transposing the works of Chopin into C major to make them easier to >> learn >> >> Steve P. >> >> On 12 Oct 2012, at 17:11, Patrick Sheehan >> wrote: >> >>> In the same vein for hearing things in your head, EVERY SCORE in this >> world >>> should be a C-Score. EVERY. SCORE. >>> >>> Patrick J. M. Sheehan >>> Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy >>> P. S. Music >>> Host: "The Saturday Blues" on 89.5 WNIJ-FM, 1 pm - 4 pm (CST) & WNIJ.org >>> 1-815-973-2317 (m) >>> >>> patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: David Froom [mailto:dfr...@smcm.edu] >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 12:40 PM >>> To: finale@shsu.edu >>> Subject: Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp. >>> >>> On 2 Oct 2012, at 1:00 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: >>> >>>> One could discuss all day longs things that singers should and should >> not >>>> do. I think books have been written on the subject. But they are beside >>> the >>>> point here. >>>> >>>> What I am saying is, if you want the best performance out of the most >>>> number of singers, I highly recommend providing a C score. I have paid >> the >>>> price for not so doing and I won't make the same mistake twice. >>> >>> Robert is absolutely correct here! This is my experience, even with >>> well-known, successful singers, even those who have sung a lot of >>> contemporary music. They simply want to be able to quickly find their >> pitch >>> from the score, and if they are constantly checking to see who is playing >>> and remembering what that instrument's transposition (at the moment, for >>> scores with switching instruments), it can seriously disrupt a rehearsal >>> and/or a performance. The best singers, if you give them a transposed >>> score, might just ask you to make a C score for them. I'm talking about >>> non-tonal music here. >>> >>> Conductors keep their eyes on the whole thing all the time. Singers have >>> their own part, but in performance need to look out at the audience as >> much >>> as possible, so they jump back to their score for quick reference to >> their >>> part as well as the other instruments, often jumping from instrument to >>> instrument for a reference pitch. They also have to think about dramatic >>> projection, etc. Why make their lives more difficult, or increase even >> by a >>> couple of hours the time needed for learning and rehearsing? >>> >>> My solution is to create a C score for the singer and a transposed score >> for >>> the conductor. Everyone is happy, no one is confused. >>> >>> David Froom >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> Finale mailing list >>> Finale@shsu.edu >>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
Once again we have the assumption that the use of C scores implies anything whatsoever about the skillset of the people that use them. That said, if you can't read C scores, there's a whole lot of important literature that is a closed book to you. On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 8:30 PM, Steve Parker wrote: > I'm an old enough repetiteur that standard skillset includes reading and > reducing at sight orchestral, windband and brassband scores. > > C scores give me (irrationally) the same kind of offence I would get from > transposing the works of Chopin into C major to make them easier to > learn > > Steve P. > > On 12 Oct 2012, at 17:11, Patrick Sheehan > wrote: > > > In the same vein for hearing things in your head, EVERY SCORE in this > world > > should be a C-Score. EVERY. SCORE. > > > > Patrick J. M. Sheehan > > Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy > > P. S. Music > > Host: "The Saturday Blues" on 89.5 WNIJ-FM, 1 pm - 4 pm (CST) & WNIJ.org > > 1-815-973-2317 (m) > > > > patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com > > > > -Original Message- > > From: David Froom [mailto:dfr...@smcm.edu] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 12:40 PM > > To: finale@shsu.edu > > Subject: Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp. > > > > On 2 Oct 2012, at 1:00 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: > > > >> One could discuss all day longs things that singers should and should > not > >> do. I think books have been written on the subject. But they are beside > > the > >> point here. > >> > >> What I am saying is, if you want the best performance out of the most > >> number of singers, I highly recommend providing a C score. I have paid > the > >> price for not so doing and I won't make the same mistake twice. > > > > Robert is absolutely correct here! This is my experience, even with > > well-known, successful singers, even those who have sung a lot of > > contemporary music. They simply want to be able to quickly find their > pitch > > from the score, and if they are constantly checking to see who is playing > > and remembering what that instrument's transposition (at the moment, for > > scores with switching instruments), it can seriously disrupt a rehearsal > > and/or a performance. The best singers, if you give them a transposed > > score, might just ask you to make a C score for them. I'm talking about > > non-tonal music here. > > > > Conductors keep their eyes on the whole thing all the time. Singers have > > their own part, but in performance need to look out at the audience as > much > > as possible, so they jump back to their score for quick reference to > their > > part as well as the other instruments, often jumping from instrument to > > instrument for a reference pitch. They also have to think about dramatic > > projection, etc. Why make their lives more difficult, or increase even > by a > > couple of hours the time needed for learning and rehearsing? > > > > My solution is to create a C score for the singer and a transposed score > for > > the conductor. Everyone is happy, no one is confused. > > > > David Froom > > > > > > ___ > > Finale mailing list > > Finale@shsu.edu > > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
I'm an old enough repetiteur that standard skillset includes reading and reducing at sight orchestral, windband and brassband scores. C scores give me (irrationally) the same kind of offence I would get from transposing the works of Chopin into C major to make them easier to learn Steve P. On 12 Oct 2012, at 17:11, Patrick Sheehan wrote: > In the same vein for hearing things in your head, EVERY SCORE in this world > should be a C-Score. EVERY. SCORE. > > Patrick J. M. Sheehan > Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy > P. S. Music > Host: "The Saturday Blues" on 89.5 WNIJ-FM, 1 pm - 4 pm (CST) & WNIJ.org > 1-815-973-2317 (m) > > patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com > > -Original Message- > From: David Froom [mailto:dfr...@smcm.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 12:40 PM > To: finale@shsu.edu > Subject: Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp. > > On 2 Oct 2012, at 1:00 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: > >> One could discuss all day longs things that singers should and should not >> do. I think books have been written on the subject. But they are beside > the >> point here. >> >> What I am saying is, if you want the best performance out of the most >> number of singers, I highly recommend providing a C score. I have paid the >> price for not so doing and I won't make the same mistake twice. > > Robert is absolutely correct here! This is my experience, even with > well-known, successful singers, even those who have sung a lot of > contemporary music. They simply want to be able to quickly find their pitch > from the score, and if they are constantly checking to see who is playing > and remembering what that instrument's transposition (at the moment, for > scores with switching instruments), it can seriously disrupt a rehearsal > and/or a performance. The best singers, if you give them a transposed > score, might just ask you to make a C score for them. I'm talking about > non-tonal music here. > > Conductors keep their eyes on the whole thing all the time. Singers have > their own part, but in performance need to look out at the audience as much > as possible, so they jump back to their score for quick reference to their > part as well as the other instruments, often jumping from instrument to > instrument for a reference pitch. They also have to think about dramatic > projection, etc. Why make their lives more difficult, or increase even by a > couple of hours the time needed for learning and rehearsing? > > My solution is to create a C score for the singer and a transposed score for > the conductor. Everyone is happy, no one is confused. > > David Froom > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
At 11:11 AM -0500 10/12/12, Patrick Sheehan wrote: >In the same vein for hearing things in your head, EVERY SCORE in this world >should be a C-Score. EVERY. SCORE. Why? To save people the trouble of learning to read transpositions? To keep pianists happy within their limitations? How about those of us who feel very strongly that we want to see EXACTLY what the players in front of us see? (And who have put in the necessary time to be able to read transpositions as well as the more unusual clefs?) John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts & Cinema College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
Exactly, David. On 12 October 2012 21:08, David H. Bailey < dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com> wrote: > On 10/12/2012 12:11 PM, Patrick Sheehan wrote: > > In the same vein for hearing things in your head, EVERY SCORE in this > world > > should be a C-Score. EVERY. SCORE. > > > > Except for those of us who work with the transposing instruments and can > look at the printed note for an alto saxophone and hear the correct > sound in our head. > > There is no "EVERY" in the world of music -- diff'rent strokes for > diff'rent folks, and thank goodness for that! > > > -- > David H. Bailey > dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > -- Lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
On 10/12/2012 12:11 PM, Patrick Sheehan wrote: > In the same vein for hearing things in your head, EVERY SCORE in this world > should be a C-Score. EVERY. SCORE. > Except for those of us who work with the transposing instruments and can look at the printed note for an alto saxophone and hear the correct sound in our head. There is no "EVERY" in the world of music -- diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks, and thank goodness for that! -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
Absolutely not! I could not disagree more. Cheers, Lawrence On 12 October 2012 17:11, Patrick Sheehan wrote: > In the same vein for hearing things in your head, EVERY SCORE in this world > should be a C-Score. EVERY. SCORE. > > Lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
In the same vein for hearing things in your head, EVERY SCORE in this world should be a C-Score. EVERY. SCORE. Patrick J. M. Sheehan Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy P. S. Music Host: "The Saturday Blues" on 89.5 WNIJ-FM, 1 pm - 4 pm (CST) & WNIJ.org 1-815-973-2317 (m) patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com -Original Message- From: David Froom [mailto:dfr...@smcm.edu] Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 12:40 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp. On 2 Oct 2012, at 1:00 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: > One could discuss all day longs things that singers should and should not > do. I think books have been written on the subject. But they are beside the > point here. > > What I am saying is, if you want the best performance out of the most > number of singers, I highly recommend providing a C score. I have paid the > price for not so doing and I won't make the same mistake twice. Robert is absolutely correct here! This is my experience, even with well-known, successful singers, even those who have sung a lot of contemporary music. They simply want to be able to quickly find their pitch from the score, and if they are constantly checking to see who is playing and remembering what that instrument's transposition (at the moment, for scores with switching instruments), it can seriously disrupt a rehearsal and/or a performance. The best singers, if you give them a transposed score, might just ask you to make a C score for them. I'm talking about non-tonal music here. Conductors keep their eyes on the whole thing all the time. Singers have their own part, but in performance need to look out at the audience as much as possible, so they jump back to their score for quick reference to their part as well as the other instruments, often jumping from instrument to instrument for a reference pitch. They also have to think about dramatic projection, etc. Why make their lives more difficult, or increase even by a couple of hours the time needed for learning and rehearsing? My solution is to create a C score for the singer and a transposed score for the conductor. Everyone is happy, no one is confused. David Froom ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
Thank you, Steve. You are the first to respond to my open question regarding the use of a piano reduction, which after all is exactly why piano reductions became standard in the first place, to provide the necessary information to singers in compact form that does not require the ability to read a full score either transposed OR concert pitch! This is also standard in Broadway scores (the full piano-vocal scores, not the "Selections From" collections), some of which are so carefully marked as to be quite practical as conducting scores. Of course Robert didn't mention in his original post that he was talking about non-tonal music, which does present a different level of difficulty not just for singers but for instrumentalists as well, and does require that performers of ANY kind be very well trained as musicians and not just have pretty voices for singing pretty melodies. John At 7:19 PM +0100 10/2/12, Steve Parker wrote: >My solution here is a vocal score with piano >reduction (never to be actually played) heavily >marked with relevant instrumental cues. >It can be much better than leaving the singers to decipher their own cues. > >Steve P. > >On 2 Oct 2012, at 18:40, David Froom wrote: > >> On 2 Oct 2012, at 1:00 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: >> >>> One could discuss all day longs things that singers should and should not >>> do. I think books have been written on the subject. But they are beside the >>> point here. >>> >>> What I am saying is, if you want the best performance out of the most >>> number of singers, I highly recommend providing a C score. I have paid the >>> price for not so doing and I won't make the same mistake twice. >> >> Robert is absolutely correct here! This is my >>experience, even with well-known, successful >>singers, even those who have sung a lot of >>contemporary music. They simply want to be >>able to quickly find their pitch from the >>score, and if they are constantly checking to >>see who is playing and remembering what that >>instrument's transposition (at the moment, for >>scores with switching instruments), it can >>seriously disrupt a rehearsal and/or a >>performance. The best singers, if you give >>them a transposed score, might just ask you to >>make a C score for them. I'm talking about >>non-tonal music here. >> >> Conductors keep their eyes on the whole thing >>all the time. Singers have their own part, but >>in performance need to look out at the audience >>as much as possible, so they jump back to their >>score for quick reference to their part as well >>as the other instruments, often jumping from >>instrument to instrument for a reference pitch. >>They also have to think about dramatic >>projection, etc. Why make their lives more >>difficult, or increase even by a couple of >>hours the time needed for learning and >>rehearsing? >> >> My solution is to create a C score for the >>singer and a transposed score for the >>conductor. Everyone is happy, no one is >>confused. >> >> David Froom >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > >___ >Finale mailing list >Finale@shsu.edu >http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts & Cinema College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
My solution here is a vocal score with piano reduction (never to be actually played) heavily marked with relevant instrumental cues. It can be much better than leaving the singers to decipher their own cues. Steve P. On 2 Oct 2012, at 18:40, David Froom wrote: > On 2 Oct 2012, at 1:00 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: > >> One could discuss all day longs things that singers should and should not >> do. I think books have been written on the subject. But they are beside the >> point here. >> >> What I am saying is, if you want the best performance out of the most >> number of singers, I highly recommend providing a C score. I have paid the >> price for not so doing and I won't make the same mistake twice. > > Robert is absolutely correct here! This is my experience, even with > well-known, successful singers, even those who have sung a lot of > contemporary music. They simply want to be able to quickly find their pitch > from the score, and if they are constantly checking to see who is playing and > remembering what that instrument's transposition (at the moment, for scores > with switching instruments), it can seriously disrupt a rehearsal and/or a > performance. The best singers, if you give them a transposed score, might > just ask you to make a C score for them. I'm talking about non-tonal music > here. > > Conductors keep their eyes on the whole thing all the time. Singers have > their own part, but in performance need to look out at the audience as much > as possible, so they jump back to their score for quick reference to their > part as well as the other instruments, often jumping from instrument to > instrument for a reference pitch. They also have to think about dramatic > projection, etc. Why make their lives more difficult, or increase even by a > couple of hours the time needed for learning and rehearsing? > > My solution is to create a C score for the singer and a transposed score for > the conductor. Everyone is happy, no one is confused. > > David Froom > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
On 2 Oct 2012, at 1:00 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: > One could discuss all day longs things that singers should and should not > do. I think books have been written on the subject. But they are beside the > point here. > > What I am saying is, if you want the best performance out of the most > number of singers, I highly recommend providing a C score. I have paid the > price for not so doing and I won't make the same mistake twice. Robert is absolutely correct here! This is my experience, even with well-known, successful singers, even those who have sung a lot of contemporary music. They simply want to be able to quickly find their pitch from the score, and if they are constantly checking to see who is playing and remembering what that instrument's transposition (at the moment, for scores with switching instruments), it can seriously disrupt a rehearsal and/or a performance. The best singers, if you give them a transposed score, might just ask you to make a C score for them. I'm talking about non-tonal music here. Conductors keep their eyes on the whole thing all the time. Singers have their own part, but in performance need to look out at the audience as much as possible, so they jump back to their score for quick reference to their part as well as the other instruments, often jumping from instrument to instrument for a reference pitch. They also have to think about dramatic projection, etc. Why make their lives more difficult, or increase even by a couple of hours the time needed for learning and rehearsing? My solution is to create a C score for the singer and a transposed score for the conductor. Everyone is happy, no one is confused. David Froom ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
One could discuss all day longs things that singers should and should not do. I think books have been written on the subject. But they are beside the point here. What I am saying is, if you want the best performance out of the most number of singers, I highly recommend providing a C score. I have paid the price for not so doing and I won't make the same mistake twice. On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 8:48 PM, Raymond Horton wrote: > Way back in undergrad theory, we were painstakingly, over a period of > time, analyzing the Wagner "Tristan" Prelude and Liebestod from the > miniature full scores. If you recall, that is a particular challenge, > besides the obvious harmonic ones, as it features such transposing > favorites as a pair each of horns in F and E, bass clef-bass clarinet in A, > trumpets in F, plenty of tenor clef, etc. One class I noticed a singer > next to me was using, instead of the tiny full score, a piano reduction he > had found in an anthology. I remarked something negative on that, he said, > rather defensively and unconvincingly, that he checked everything with the > full score, blah, blah. > > Flash forward about five years, I'm playing a recording date in studio for > previously mentioned singer who has written an advertising jingle. Guess > what? We get bogged down because of (who'd-a-guessed it?) transposition > errors in some of the parts. We have to stop and fix the parts, we go into > overtime, singer-leader is sweating because he's going over budget. > > It's good for singers to learn to transpose, also. > > Raymond Horton > Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra > Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC > Composer, Arranger > VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com > > > On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 9:15 PM, John Howell wrote: > > > At 2:41 PM -0500 10/1/12, Robert Patterson wrote: > > >No, I mean vocal chamber music with transposing instruments. > > > > > > Ahhh. That didn't occur to me. Sorry. But why > > is that really a problem? 90% of singers > > couldn't read a viola part in alto clef, either, > > but *I* would want to see it where it belongs. > > Isn't that what the piano reduction is for in the > > first place? It WILL be used for practice as the > > singer learns his or her part. > > > > John > > > > > > -- > > John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music > > Virginia Tech Department of Music > > School of Performing Arts & Cinema > > College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences > > 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 > > Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 > > (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) > > http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html > > > > "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." > > (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms > > > > ___ > > Finale mailing list > > Finale@shsu.edu > > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
Way back in undergrad theory, we were painstakingly, over a period of time, analyzing the Wagner "Tristan" Prelude and Liebestod from the miniature full scores. If you recall, that is a particular challenge, besides the obvious harmonic ones, as it features such transposing favorites as a pair each of horns in F and E, bass clef-bass clarinet in A, trumpets in F, plenty of tenor clef, etc. One class I noticed a singer next to me was using, instead of the tiny full score, a piano reduction he had found in an anthology. I remarked something negative on that, he said, rather defensively and unconvincingly, that he checked everything with the full score, blah, blah. Flash forward about five years, I'm playing a recording date in studio for previously mentioned singer who has written an advertising jingle. Guess what? We get bogged down because of (who'd-a-guessed it?) transposition errors in some of the parts. We have to stop and fix the parts, we go into overtime, singer-leader is sweating because he's going over budget. It's good for singers to learn to transpose, also. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 9:15 PM, John Howell wrote: > At 2:41 PM -0500 10/1/12, Robert Patterson wrote: > >No, I mean vocal chamber music with transposing instruments. > > > Ahhh. That didn't occur to me. Sorry. But why > is that really a problem? 90% of singers > couldn't read a viola part in alto clef, either, > but *I* would want to see it where it belongs. > Isn't that what the piano reduction is for in the > first place? It WILL be used for practice as the > singer learns his or her part. > > John > > > -- > John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music > Virginia Tech Department of Music > School of Performing Arts & Cinema > College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences > 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 > Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 > (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) > http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html > > "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." > (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
The business about providing a C score for singers is a recommendation that comes from bitter experience. I wrote a cycle for soprano, horn, percussion, and piano. The singer is working from score. Originally it was a transposed score, but I quickly discovered the singers were much more comfortable seeing the horn where it sounded. Same thing for a more recent cycle with bass clarinet. The singers I have worked with "get" C clefs way better than they get transposing instruments using G clefs. On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 8:15 PM, John Howell wrote: > At 2:41 PM -0500 10/1/12, Robert Patterson wrote: > >No, I mean vocal chamber music with transposing instruments. > > > Ahhh. That didn't occur to me. Sorry. But why > is that really a problem? 90% of singers > couldn't read a viola part in alto clef, either, > but *I* would want to see it where it belongs. > Isn't that what the piano reduction is for in the > first place? It WILL be used for practice as the > singer learns his or her part. > > John > > > -- > John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music > Virginia Tech Department of Music > School of Performing Arts & Cinema > College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences > 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 > Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 > (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) > http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html > > "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." > (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
At 2:41 PM -0500 10/1/12, Robert Patterson wrote: >No, I mean vocal chamber music with transposing instruments. Ahhh. That didn't occur to me. Sorry. But why is that really a problem? 90% of singers couldn't read a viola part in alto clef, either, but *I* would want to see it where it belongs. Isn't that what the piano reduction is for in the first place? It WILL be used for practice as the singer learns his or her part. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts & Cinema College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
My music has no key signatures, so there is no notational cue what the transposition is. I struggle to remember at any given moment if it is clarinet in A or clarinet in Bb, for example. For a while I was putting the transposition in with the instrument abbrev. name, but that takes up space and doesn't jump out at you the way key signatures do. For music with key signatures, I am totally okay with transposed scores. It's not a question of comfort level. It is a question of never having to ask questions. On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Robert Patterson < rob...@robertgpatterson.com> wrote: > No, I mean vocal chamber music with transposing instruments. > > > On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 1:35 PM, John Howell wrote: > >> At 1:04 PM -0500 10/1/12, Robert Patterson wrote: >> >I switched back to concert pitch a few years ago. In my advancing years I >> >want no unnecessary barriers. >> >> >> Hi, Robert, and of course to each his own on >> questions like this one. I personally find that >> a concert pitch score presents me with >> unnecessary barriers, since I want to see exactly >> what the players in front of me see. But of >> course I learned to read transposed scores >> starting in junior high school or perhaps even >> earlier, when I discovered my father's >> Rimsky-Korsakov orchestration books. And I >> continued to do so as I learned to play the >> various instruments themselves. But since I'm >> not a pianist, I've never felt restricted to just >> two non-transposed clefs. >> >> >> >Another reason is that in recent years I have >> >started writing a lot of vocal music, and no singer should ever be >> >presented a transposed score, not unless the singer has perfect pitch, or >> >unless you don't want to hear the pitches you wrote. >> >> >> I have to admit that this has me baffled. When >> would you EVER write for voices as transposing >> instruments?!!! Of course it's necessary to read >> all 9 movable clefs in order to do any historical >> research at all, but those aren't transpositions >> and never have been. Once the tenor C-clef was >> abandoned for choral tenor parts (post Brahms), >> that left the plain G clef ambiguous and on >> occasion confusing, as witness the efforts of >> Novello and some other publishers to come up with >> an alternative (TWO G clefs side-by-side, etc.), >> but the tenor sub-8 G-clef solves that problem >> nicely and without any ambiguity. Tradition >> takes care of most of the rest. >> >> Note entry is another story, of course, and I >> usually prefer to use concert pitch for that, but >> for conducting a concert pitch score presents a >> real barrier because I have to THINK about what >> the notes would be for the player instead of >> simply reading them as is. >> >> But to each his own. >> >> John >> >> >> -- >> John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music >> Virginia Tech Department of Music >> School of Performing Arts & Cinema >> College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences >> 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 >> Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 >> (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) >> http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html >> >> "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." >> (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms >> >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> > > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
No, I mean vocal chamber music with transposing instruments. On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 1:35 PM, John Howell wrote: > At 1:04 PM -0500 10/1/12, Robert Patterson wrote: > >I switched back to concert pitch a few years ago. In my advancing years I > >want no unnecessary barriers. > > > Hi, Robert, and of course to each his own on > questions like this one. I personally find that > a concert pitch score presents me with > unnecessary barriers, since I want to see exactly > what the players in front of me see. But of > course I learned to read transposed scores > starting in junior high school or perhaps even > earlier, when I discovered my father's > Rimsky-Korsakov orchestration books. And I > continued to do so as I learned to play the > various instruments themselves. But since I'm > not a pianist, I've never felt restricted to just > two non-transposed clefs. > > > >Another reason is that in recent years I have > >started writing a lot of vocal music, and no singer should ever be > >presented a transposed score, not unless the singer has perfect pitch, or > >unless you don't want to hear the pitches you wrote. > > > I have to admit that this has me baffled. When > would you EVER write for voices as transposing > instruments?!!! Of course it's necessary to read > all 9 movable clefs in order to do any historical > research at all, but those aren't transpositions > and never have been. Once the tenor C-clef was > abandoned for choral tenor parts (post Brahms), > that left the plain G clef ambiguous and on > occasion confusing, as witness the efforts of > Novello and some other publishers to come up with > an alternative (TWO G clefs side-by-side, etc.), > but the tenor sub-8 G-clef solves that problem > nicely and without any ambiguity. Tradition > takes care of most of the rest. > > Note entry is another story, of course, and I > usually prefer to use concert pitch for that, but > for conducting a concert pitch score presents a > real barrier because I have to THINK about what > the notes would be for the player instead of > simply reading them as is. > > But to each his own. > > John > > > -- > John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music > Virginia Tech Department of Music > School of Performing Arts & Cinema > College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences > 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 > Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 > (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) > http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html > > "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." > (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
At 1:04 PM -0500 10/1/12, Robert Patterson wrote: >I switched back to concert pitch a few years ago. In my advancing years I >want no unnecessary barriers. Hi, Robert, and of course to each his own on questions like this one. I personally find that a concert pitch score presents me with unnecessary barriers, since I want to see exactly what the players in front of me see. But of course I learned to read transposed scores starting in junior high school or perhaps even earlier, when I discovered my father's Rimsky-Korsakov orchestration books. And I continued to do so as I learned to play the various instruments themselves. But since I'm not a pianist, I've never felt restricted to just two non-transposed clefs. >Another reason is that in recent years I have >started writing a lot of vocal music, and no singer should ever be >presented a transposed score, not unless the singer has perfect pitch, or >unless you don't want to hear the pitches you wrote. I have to admit that this has me baffled. When would you EVER write for voices as transposing instruments?!!! Of course it's necessary to read all 9 movable clefs in order to do any historical research at all, but those aren't transpositions and never have been. Once the tenor C-clef was abandoned for choral tenor parts (post Brahms), that left the plain G clef ambiguous and on occasion confusing, as witness the efforts of Novello and some other publishers to come up with an alternative (TWO G clefs side-by-side, etc.), but the tenor sub-8 G-clef solves that problem nicely and without any ambiguity. Tradition takes care of most of the rest. Note entry is another story, of course, and I usually prefer to use concert pitch for that, but for conducting a concert pitch score presents a real barrier because I have to THINK about what the notes would be for the player instead of simply reading them as is. But to each his own. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts & Cinema College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
Hi Chris, I'm actually having trouble getting GPO "pizz." and "arco" expressions to work *at all* in Fin2012c, let alone chase correctly from m.1. This is admittedly in scores imported from earlier versions of Finale, but I can confirm that there are still significant issues. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 1 Oct 2012, at 2:15 PM, wrote: > Darcy, they claim that expressions in 2012c now chase correctly if you start > playback from the middle of the piece. Have you tested that to see if it > fixed now or not? My simple tests all worked, but maybe you spank it harder > than I do. > > Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
Yes there is, but it doesn't always work. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 1 Oct 2012, at 2:52 PM, Michael Mathew wrote: > Hello, everyone, > > Isn't there a chase capability/setting in the playback window? > > Michael > mmathew_musicp...@yahoo.com > http://www.musicengravers.com/cgi-bin/engravers.pl > http://oregonmts.com/mathew/ > > >> >> From: "christopher.sm...@videotron.ca" >> To: finale@shsu.edu >> Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 11:15 AM >> Subject: Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp. >> >> Darcy, they claim that expressions in 2012c now chase correctly if you start >> playback from the middle of the piece. Have you tested that to see if it >> fixed now or not? My simple tests all worked, but maybe you spank it harder >> than I do. >> >> Christopher >> >> ----- Original Message - >> From: Darcy James Argue >> Date: Monday, October 1, 2012 1:20 pm >> Subject: Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp. >> To: finale@shsu.edu >> >>> Hi Robert, >>> >>> Do you generally work with concert pitch scores? I seemed to >>> recall you normally work with transposed scores. In transposed >>> scores, you'll only ever see the octave-displaced clefs if you >>> have "Display in Concert Pitch" temporarily turned on (for, >>> e.g., note entry). But they don't show up in the printed score >>> or parts. >>> >>> I'm wary of your expression-based solution because I find, when >>> playing back from the middle of the score, expressions that come >>> before the playback point are not reliably caught by Finale. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> - DJA >>> - >>> WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org >>> >>> >>> >>> On 1 Oct 2012, at 9:41 AM, Robert Patterson >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Octave displaced clefs is certainly one way to do it. I find >>> them to be >>>> overly fussy and potentially not as clear as regular clefs. >>> One could >>>> change the glyph for the octave displaced clefs (and I have >>> tried this), >>>> but then you can't tell the octave-displaced from the regular, >>> so you could >>>> potentially have errors that cost time figuring out. >>>> >>>> Another approach I have not tried is applying score-only staff >>> styles to >>>> the instruments that I want to show in sounding pitch. It >>> seems like it >>>> might work. >>>> >>>> But really, the transposing expression works beautifully. You >>> can put them >>>> into the instrument change names. Then if you hear an >>> instrument playing >>>> back in the wrong octave, you know you have forgotten the >>> expression to the >>>> player for changing axes. >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 8:02 AM, Steve Parker >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Maybe I'm misunderstanding but if I make a concert score >>> (never by >>>>> choice..) I make liberal use of octave displaced clefs. >>>>> >>>>> Steve P. >>>>> >>>>> On 1 Oct 2012, at 04:50, Robert Patterson >>> >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I am writing a contrabassoon part in a C score. The way I >>> usually handle >>>>> C >>>>>> scores is that I label each transposing instrument "sounding >>> as written", >>>>>> but I do not so label octave transposing instruments. That >>> allows me to >>>>> not >>>>>> be fussy about them. >>>>>> >>>>>> But it puts me in a quandary for correct playback, and I had >>> thought>>> transposing expression would work. But I am finding >>> (at least sometimes) >>>>>> they don't transpose. Specifically, I have a bassoon/contra >>> doubling>> part. >>>>>> When the contra part starts I put a hidden "T-12" >>> transposing expression >>>>> in >>>>>> the score. It was actually working, but then it stopped, and >>> I have no >>>>> idea >>>>>> what changed. I certainly did not change anything on purpose. >>>>>> >>>>>&
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
Hello, everyone, Isn't there a chase capability/setting in the playback window? Michael mmathew_musicp...@yahoo.com http://www.musicengravers.com/cgi-bin/engravers.pl http://oregonmts.com/mathew/ > > From: "christopher.sm...@videotron.ca" >To: finale@shsu.edu >Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 11:15 AM >Subject: Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp. > >Darcy, they claim that expressions in 2012c now chase correctly if you start >playback from the middle of the piece. Have you tested that to see if it fixed >now or not? My simple tests all worked, but maybe you spank it harder than I >do. > >Christopher > >- Original Message - >From: Darcy James Argue >Date: Monday, October 1, 2012 1:20 pm >Subject: Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp. >To: finale@shsu.edu > >> Hi Robert, >> >> Do you generally work with concert pitch scores? I seemed to >> recall you normally work with transposed scores. In transposed >> scores, you'll only ever see the octave-displaced clefs if you >> have "Display in Concert Pitch" temporarily turned on (for, >> e.g., note entry). But they don't show up in the printed score >> or parts. >> >> I'm wary of your expression-based solution because I find, when >> playing back from the middle of the score, expressions that come >> before the playback point are not reliably caught by Finale. >> >> Cheers, >> >> - DJA >> - >> WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org >> >> >> >> On 1 Oct 2012, at 9:41 AM, Robert Patterson >> wrote: >> >> > Octave displaced clefs is certainly one way to do it. I find >> them to be >> > overly fussy and potentially not as clear as regular clefs. >> One could >> > change the glyph for the octave displaced clefs (and I have >> tried this), >> > but then you can't tell the octave-displaced from the regular, >> so you could >> > potentially have errors that cost time figuring out. >> > >> > Another approach I have not tried is applying score-only staff >> styles to >> > the instruments that I want to show in sounding pitch. It >> seems like it >> > might work. >> > >> > But really, the transposing expression works beautifully. You >> can put them >> > into the instrument change names. Then if you hear an >> instrument playing >> > back in the wrong octave, you know you have forgotten the >> expression to the >> > player for changing axes. >> > >> > On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 8:02 AM, Steve Parker >> wrote: >> > >> >> Maybe I'm misunderstanding but if I make a concert score >> (never by >> >> choice..) I make liberal use of octave displaced clefs. >> >> >> >> Steve P. >> >> >> >> On 1 Oct 2012, at 04:50, Robert Patterson >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> I am writing a contrabassoon part in a C score. The way I >> usually handle >> >> C >> >>> scores is that I label each transposing instrument "sounding >> as written", >> >>> but I do not so label octave transposing instruments. That >> allows me to >> >> not >> >>> be fussy about them. >> >>> >> >>> But it puts me in a quandary for correct playback, and I had >> thought>>> transposing expression would work. But I am finding >> (at least sometimes) >> >>> they don't transpose. Specifically, I have a bassoon/contra >> doubling>> part. >> >>> When the contra part starts I put a hidden "T-12" >> transposing expression >> >> in >> >>> the score. It was actually working, but then it stopped, and >> I have no >> >> idea >> >>> what changed. I certainly did not change anything on purpose. >> >>> >> >>> Does anyone know why a transposing exp. might not transpose? Oddly >> >> enough, >> >>> my piccolo expressions are transposing. Go figure. The >> options in the >> >>> assignment dialogs for both contra and piccolo exps look the >> same to me. >> >>> ___ >> >>> Finale mailing list >> >>> Finale@shsu.edu >> >>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> Finale mailing list >> >> Finale@shsu.edu >> >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> >> >> > ___ >> > Finale mailing list >> > Finale@shsu.edu >> > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >___ >Finale mailing list >Finale@shsu.edu >http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
Darcy, they claim that expressions in 2012c now chase correctly if you start playback from the middle of the piece. Have you tested that to see if it fixed now or not? My simple tests all worked, but maybe you spank it harder than I do. Christopher - Original Message - From: Darcy James Argue Date: Monday, October 1, 2012 1:20 pm Subject: Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp. To: finale@shsu.edu > Hi Robert, > > Do you generally work with concert pitch scores? I seemed to > recall you normally work with transposed scores. In transposed > scores, you'll only ever see the octave-displaced clefs if you > have "Display in Concert Pitch" temporarily turned on (for, > e.g., note entry). But they don't show up in the printed score > or parts. > > I'm wary of your expression-based solution because I find, when > playing back from the middle of the score, expressions that come > before the playback point are not reliably caught by Finale. > > Cheers, > > - DJA > - > WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org > > > > On 1 Oct 2012, at 9:41 AM, Robert Patterson > wrote: > > > Octave displaced clefs is certainly one way to do it. I find > them to be > > overly fussy and potentially not as clear as regular clefs. > One could > > change the glyph for the octave displaced clefs (and I have > tried this), > > but then you can't tell the octave-displaced from the regular, > so you could > > potentially have errors that cost time figuring out. > > > > Another approach I have not tried is applying score-only staff > styles to > > the instruments that I want to show in sounding pitch. It > seems like it > > might work. > > > > But really, the transposing expression works beautifully. You > can put them > > into the instrument change names. Then if you hear an > instrument playing > > back in the wrong octave, you know you have forgotten the > expression to the > > player for changing axes. > > > > On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 8:02 AM, Steve Parker > wrote: > > > >> Maybe I'm misunderstanding but if I make a concert score > (never by > >> choice..) I make liberal use of octave displaced clefs. > >> > >> Steve P. > >> > >> On 1 Oct 2012, at 04:50, Robert Patterson > >> wrote: > >> > >>> I am writing a contrabassoon part in a C score. The way I > usually handle > >> C > >>> scores is that I label each transposing instrument "sounding > as written", > >>> but I do not so label octave transposing instruments. That > allows me to > >> not > >>> be fussy about them. > >>> > >>> But it puts me in a quandary for correct playback, and I had > thought>>> transposing expression would work. But I am finding > (at least sometimes) > >>> they don't transpose. Specifically, I have a bassoon/contra > doubling>> part. > >>> When the contra part starts I put a hidden "T-12" > transposing expression > >> in > >>> the score. It was actually working, but then it stopped, and > I have no > >> idea > >>> what changed. I certainly did not change anything on purpose. > >>> > >>> Does anyone know why a transposing exp. might not transpose? Oddly > >> enough, > >>> my piccolo expressions are transposing. Go figure. The > options in the > >>> assignment dialogs for both contra and piccolo exps look the > same to me. > >>> ___ > >>> Finale mailing list > >>> Finale@shsu.edu > >>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > >> > >> ___ > >> Finale mailing list > >> Finale@shsu.edu > >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > >> > > ___ > > Finale mailing list > > Finale@shsu.edu > > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
I switched back to concert pitch a few years ago. In my advancing years I want no unnecessary barriers. Another reason is that in recent years I have started writing a lot of vocal music, and no singer should ever be presented a transposed score, not unless the singer has perfect pitch, or unless you don't want to hear the pitches you wrote. One reason I abandoned concert pitch scores was that transposed scores were *so much easier* with Finale in the 90s. But 21st century improvements to Finale and plugins have made that no longer a sufficient consideration for me. I have a personal aversion to the 8ve displacement clefs. I find the little "8s" to be ugly and inelegant. (One exception for me is the treble-tenor, where the "8" can be integrated into the clef elegantly, but that is not useful for transposing instruments.) The way I label concert pitch (on a per-instrument basis) is clear enough that I don't think there is any confusion mixing in the octave transposing instruments as notated. I suppose under this approach I could technically show an English Horn in concert pitch and a French Horn as transposed, but I of course don't do that. I have not noticed any playback problems with the expressions, but I am thinking that in the future I try using a concert-pitch staff style (placed only on score) and avoid "Display in Concert Pitch" altogether. That said, I rarely actually combine score and parts in a single file, and when I do I usually duplicate the transposing parts on two staves, one transposed and the other not, so that I can move the beams (and other permanently linked items) around the way I want them. Of course, in Fin12 there are many barriers to doing this, so I am referring to somewhat older scores where I took this approach. My process with linked parts is constantly under review. On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 12:20 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: > Hi Robert, > > Do you generally work with concert pitch scores? I seemed to recall you > normally work with transposed scores. In transposed scores, you'll only > ever see the octave-displaced clefs if you have "Display in Concert Pitch" > temporarily turned on (for, e.g., note entry). But they don't show up in > the printed score or parts. > > I'm wary of your expression-based solution because I find, when playing > back from the middle of the score, expressions that come before the > playback point are not reliably caught by Finale. > > Cheers, > > - DJA > - > WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org > > > > On 1 Oct 2012, at 9:41 AM, Robert Patterson > wrote: > > > Octave displaced clefs is certainly one way to do it. I find them to be > > overly fussy and potentially not as clear as regular clefs. One could > > change the glyph for the octave displaced clefs (and I have tried this), > > but then you can't tell the octave-displaced from the regular, so you > could > > potentially have errors that cost time figuring out. > > > > Another approach I have not tried is applying score-only staff styles to > > the instruments that I want to show in sounding pitch. It seems like it > > might work. > > > > But really, the transposing expression works beautifully. You can put > them > > into the instrument change names. Then if you hear an instrument playing > > back in the wrong octave, you know you have forgotten the expression to > the > > player for changing axes. > > > > On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 8:02 AM, Steve Parker > wrote: > > > >> Maybe I'm misunderstanding but if I make a concert score (never by > >> choice..) I make liberal use of octave displaced clefs. > >> > >> Steve P. > >> > >> On 1 Oct 2012, at 04:50, Robert Patterson > >> wrote: > >> > >>> I am writing a contrabassoon part in a C score. The way I usually > handle > >> C > >>> scores is that I label each transposing instrument "sounding as > written", > >>> but I do not so label octave transposing instruments. That allows me to > >> not > >>> be fussy about them. > >>> > >>> But it puts me in a quandary for correct playback, and I had thought > >>> transposing expression would work. But I am finding (at least > sometimes) > >>> they don't transpose. Specifically, I have a bassoon/contra doubling > >> part. > >>> When the contra part starts I put a hidden "T-12" transposing > expression > >> in > >>> the score. It was actually working, but then it stopped, and I have no > >> idea > >>> what changed. I certainly did not change anything on purpose. > >>> > >>> Does anyone know why a transposing exp. might not transpose? Oddly > >> enough, > >>> my piccolo expressions are transposing. Go figure. The options in the > >>> assignment dialogs for both contra and piccolo exps look the same to > me. > >>> ___ > >>> Finale mailing list > >>> Finale@shsu.edu > >>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > >> > >> ___ > >> Finale mailing list > >> Finale@shsu.edu > >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
Hi Robert, Do you generally work with concert pitch scores? I seemed to recall you normally work with transposed scores. In transposed scores, you'll only ever see the octave-displaced clefs if you have "Display in Concert Pitch" temporarily turned on (for, e.g., note entry). But they don't show up in the printed score or parts. I'm wary of your expression-based solution because I find, when playing back from the middle of the score, expressions that come before the playback point are not reliably caught by Finale. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 1 Oct 2012, at 9:41 AM, Robert Patterson wrote: > Octave displaced clefs is certainly one way to do it. I find them to be > overly fussy and potentially not as clear as regular clefs. One could > change the glyph for the octave displaced clefs (and I have tried this), > but then you can't tell the octave-displaced from the regular, so you could > potentially have errors that cost time figuring out. > > Another approach I have not tried is applying score-only staff styles to > the instruments that I want to show in sounding pitch. It seems like it > might work. > > But really, the transposing expression works beautifully. You can put them > into the instrument change names. Then if you hear an instrument playing > back in the wrong octave, you know you have forgotten the expression to the > player for changing axes. > > On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 8:02 AM, Steve Parker wrote: > >> Maybe I'm misunderstanding but if I make a concert score (never by >> choice..) I make liberal use of octave displaced clefs. >> >> Steve P. >> >> On 1 Oct 2012, at 04:50, Robert Patterson >> wrote: >> >>> I am writing a contrabassoon part in a C score. The way I usually handle >> C >>> scores is that I label each transposing instrument "sounding as written", >>> but I do not so label octave transposing instruments. That allows me to >> not >>> be fussy about them. >>> >>> But it puts me in a quandary for correct playback, and I had thought >>> transposing expression would work. But I am finding (at least sometimes) >>> they don't transpose. Specifically, I have a bassoon/contra doubling >> part. >>> When the contra part starts I put a hidden "T-12" transposing expression >> in >>> the score. It was actually working, but then it stopped, and I have no >> idea >>> what changed. I certainly did not change anything on purpose. >>> >>> Does anyone know why a transposing exp. might not transpose? Oddly >> enough, >>> my piccolo expressions are transposing. Go figure. The options in the >>> assignment dialogs for both contra and piccolo exps look the same to me. >>> ___ >>> Finale mailing list >>> Finale@shsu.edu >>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
I agree. A concert-pitch score with unmarked octave transpositions can be quite confusing. Octave clefs clear any confusion quite easily, without explanation needed. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 9:02 AM, Steve Parker wrote: > Maybe I'm misunderstanding but if I make a concert score (never by > choice..) I make liberal use of octave displaced clefs. > > Steve P. > > On 1 Oct 2012, at 04:50, Robert Patterson > wrote: > > > I am writing a contrabassoon part in a C score. The way I usually handle > C > > scores is that I label each transposing instrument "sounding as written", > > but I do not so label octave transposing instruments. That allows me to > not > > be fussy about them. > > > > But it puts me in a quandary for correct playback, and I had thought > > transposing expression would work. But I am finding (at least sometimes) > > they don't transpose. Specifically, I have a bassoon/contra doubling > part. > > When the contra part starts I put a hidden "T-12" transposing expression > in > > the score. It was actually working, but then it stopped, and I have no > idea > > what changed. I certainly did not change anything on purpose. > > > > Does anyone know why a transposing exp. might not transpose? Oddly > enough, > > my piccolo expressions are transposing. Go figure. The options in the > > assignment dialogs for both contra and piccolo exps look the same to me. > > ___ > > Finale mailing list > > Finale@shsu.edu > > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
Octave displaced clefs is certainly one way to do it. I find them to be overly fussy and potentially not as clear as regular clefs. One could change the glyph for the octave displaced clefs (and I have tried this), but then you can't tell the octave-displaced from the regular, so you could potentially have errors that cost time figuring out. Another approach I have not tried is applying score-only staff styles to the instruments that I want to show in sounding pitch. It seems like it might work. But really, the transposing expression works beautifully. You can put them into the instrument change names. Then if you hear an instrument playing back in the wrong octave, you know you have forgotten the expression to the player for changing axes. On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 8:02 AM, Steve Parker wrote: > Maybe I'm misunderstanding but if I make a concert score (never by > choice..) I make liberal use of octave displaced clefs. > > Steve P. > > On 1 Oct 2012, at 04:50, Robert Patterson > wrote: > > > I am writing a contrabassoon part in a C score. The way I usually handle > C > > scores is that I label each transposing instrument "sounding as written", > > but I do not so label octave transposing instruments. That allows me to > not > > be fussy about them. > > > > But it puts me in a quandary for correct playback, and I had thought > > transposing expression would work. But I am finding (at least sometimes) > > they don't transpose. Specifically, I have a bassoon/contra doubling > part. > > When the contra part starts I put a hidden "T-12" transposing expression > in > > the score. It was actually working, but then it stopped, and I have no > idea > > what changed. I certainly did not change anything on purpose. > > > > Does anyone know why a transposing exp. might not transpose? Oddly > enough, > > my piccolo expressions are transposing. Go figure. The options in the > > assignment dialogs for both contra and piccolo exps look the same to me. > > ___ > > Finale mailing list > > Finale@shsu.edu > > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding but if I make a concert score (never by choice..) I make liberal use of octave displaced clefs. Steve P. On 1 Oct 2012, at 04:50, Robert Patterson wrote: > I am writing a contrabassoon part in a C score. The way I usually handle C > scores is that I label each transposing instrument "sounding as written", > but I do not so label octave transposing instruments. That allows me to not > be fussy about them. > > But it puts me in a quandary for correct playback, and I had thought > transposing expression would work. But I am finding (at least sometimes) > they don't transpose. Specifically, I have a bassoon/contra doubling part. > When the contra part starts I put a hidden "T-12" transposing expression in > the score. It was actually working, but then it stopped, and I have no idea > what changed. I certainly did not change anything on purpose. > > Does anyone know why a transposing exp. might not transpose? Oddly enough, > my piccolo expressions are transposing. Go figure. The options in the > assignment dialogs for both contra and piccolo exps look the same to me. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
I did some more messing around and discovered it had nothing to do with the expressions. The Garritan player was somehow confused. I changed the playback instrument from "Contrabassoon Solo" to "Bass Clarinet Solo" which caused the instrument to start playing again. Then I changed it back and all was (for the moment) well. On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 11:19 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: > Hi Robert, > > I always use the 8vb bass clef in these situations, with the transposition > set to "8va, bass clef." > > This works reliably, without messing with expressions -- is it a > possibility in your case? If you're using a transposed score, it should > work just fine with no issues, since no one will ever see the 8vb clef. > > If you are using a concert pitch score and do not want to see an 8vb bass > clef, you could simply substitute the character in the clef designer. > > Cheers, > > - DJA > - > WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org > > > > On 30 Sep 2012, at 11:50 PM, Robert Patterson > wrote: > > > I am writing a contrabassoon part in a C score. The way I usually handle > C > > scores is that I label each transposing instrument "sounding as written", > > but I do not so label octave transposing instruments. That allows me to > not > > be fussy about them. > > > > But it puts me in a quandary for correct playback, and I had thought > > transposing expression would work. But I am finding (at least sometimes) > > they don't transpose. Specifically, I have a bassoon/contra doubling > part. > > When the contra part starts I put a hidden "T-12" transposing expression > in > > the score. It was actually working, but then it stopped, and I have no > idea > > what changed. I certainly did not change anything on purpose. > > > > Does anyone know why a transposing exp. might not transpose? Oddly > enough, > > my piccolo expressions are transposing. Go figure. The options in the > > assignment dialogs for both contra and piccolo exps look the same to me. > > ___ > > Finale mailing list > > Finale@shsu.edu > > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposition Exp.
Hi Robert, I always use the 8vb bass clef in these situations, with the transposition set to "8va, bass clef." This works reliably, without messing with expressions -- is it a possibility in your case? If you're using a transposed score, it should work just fine with no issues, since no one will ever see the 8vb clef. If you are using a concert pitch score and do not want to see an 8vb bass clef, you could simply substitute the character in the clef designer. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 30 Sep 2012, at 11:50 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: > I am writing a contrabassoon part in a C score. The way I usually handle C > scores is that I label each transposing instrument "sounding as written", > but I do not so label octave transposing instruments. That allows me to not > be fussy about them. > > But it puts me in a quandary for correct playback, and I had thought > transposing expression would work. But I am finding (at least sometimes) > they don't transpose. Specifically, I have a bassoon/contra doubling part. > When the contra part starts I put a hidden "T-12" transposing expression in > the score. It was actually working, but then it stopped, and I have no idea > what changed. I certainly did not change anything on purpose. > > Does anyone know why a transposing exp. might not transpose? Oddly enough, > my piccolo expressions are transposing. Go figure. The options in the > assignment dialogs for both contra and piccolo exps look the same to me. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Transposition Exp.
I am writing a contrabassoon part in a C score. The way I usually handle C scores is that I label each transposing instrument "sounding as written", but I do not so label octave transposing instruments. That allows me to not be fussy about them. But it puts me in a quandary for correct playback, and I had thought transposing expression would work. But I am finding (at least sometimes) they don't transpose. Specifically, I have a bassoon/contra doubling part. When the contra part starts I put a hidden "T-12" transposing expression in the score. It was actually working, but then it stopped, and I have no idea what changed. I certainly did not change anything on purpose. Does anyone know why a transposing exp. might not transpose? Oddly enough, my piccolo expressions are transposing. Go figure. The options in the assignment dialogs for both contra and piccolo exps look the same to me. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
