Re: [Finale] minimum font size for lyrics in score?
On Jan 13, 2010, at 7:38 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: I put it all on 8.5x11 paper at a 12 point fixed font size for lyrics. I too would endorse 12-point fixed, for anyone who can manage to fit it. That's my usual goal for a choral part that will be on-book in performance. For soloists, or choral parts that will be memorized, I often do 14- point unfixed at 75% reduction, which amounts to 10.5-point. I would say anything less than 10-point is too small for Times. In a typeface with a larger x-height, 9-point may be tolerable, but no smaller than that. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] minimum font size for lyrics in score?
I don't think it is out of the question to have a larger size of score for the conductor. Those choral octavos blow up quite nicely to 8.5x11 for a conductor. There is so much preparation going into a rehearsal that a short visit to the copy machine is no big deal for me. Since none of my choral music is published (or is likely to be!) I put it all on 8.5x11 paper at a 12 point fixed font size for lyrics. It makes the over-50 crowd AND the conductor happy! Sometimes a piece runs to a lot of pages, but it's by request of the choir, which is presumably ready to pay the price for larger text. Christopher On Wed Jan 13, at WednesdayJan 13 9:57 AM, George Brooke wrote: Let me add another wrinkle in that. I routinely conduct from the keyboard (church setting) and get frustrated with the size of the text as well as some of the small notation used in choral octavos (I presume they're trying to cut costs and use less paper). So, as you say, it's either squint & guess or a copy machine session. Often times the trouble is that they have jammed too much text into a line and if you combine that with a small text size it's really fun. George Brooke -Original Message- From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of Ray Horton Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 8:44 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] minimum font size for lyrics in score? Let me expand upon that. Choir octavos are printed so the lyrics can (barely) be read by singers, holding the music a few inches below their face, but the conductor, who has his or her music much father from the eyes, is not included in the equation. Other than xerox-enlarging every single piece that I conduct, which is impractical, mostly I just squint, guess, and smile. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] minimum font size for lyrics in score?
Let me add another wrinkle in that. I routinely conduct from the keyboard (church setting) and get frustrated with the size of the text as well as some of the small notation used in choral octavos (I presume they're trying to cut costs and use less paper). So, as you say, it's either squint & guess or a copy machine session. Often times the trouble is that they have jammed too much text into a line and if you combine that with a small text size it's really fun. George Brooke -Original Message- From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of Ray Horton Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 8:44 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] minimum font size for lyrics in score? Let me expand upon that. Choir octavos are printed so the lyrics can (barely) be read by singers, holding the music a few inches below their face, but the conductor, who has his or her music much father from the eyes, is not included in the equation. Other than xerox-enlarging every single piece that I conduct, which is impractical, mostly I just squint, guess, and smile. Ray Horton wrote: > I agree with you 100%, Mark. > > > Raymond Horton > Minister of Music, > Edwardsville (IN) UMC >> >> >> On the larger question, I am generally of the opinion that lyrics are >> always printed too small. Obviously that rule can't be taken to the >> extreme, but I almost never see lyrics that are bigger than they need >> to be, while I often see lyrics that are smaller than they need to be. >> >> mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] minimum font size for lyrics in score?
Let me expand upon that. Choir octavos are printed so the lyrics can (barely) be read by singers, holding the music a few inches below their face, but the conductor, who has his or her music much father from the eyes, is not included in the equation. Other than xerox-enlarging every single piece that I conduct, which is impractical, mostly I just squint, guess, and smile. Ray Horton wrote: I agree with you 100%, Mark. Raymond Horton Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC On the larger question, I am generally of the opinion that lyrics are always printed too small. Obviously that rule can't be taken to the extreme, but I almost never see lyrics that are bigger than they need to be, while I often see lyrics that are smaller than they need to be. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] minimum font size for lyrics in score?
I agree with you 100%, Mark. Raymond Horton Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC On the larger question, I am generally of the opinion that lyrics are always printed too small. Obviously that rule can't be taken to the extreme, but I almost never see lyrics that are bigger than they need to be, while I often see lyrics that are smaller than they need to be. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] minimum font size for lyrics in score?
On Jan 9, 2010, at 9:17 PM, Noel Stoutenburg wrote: I will also, on occasion, use a condensed, or narrow version of a typeface, when the readability of the lyrics is not the prime consideration. Using a condensed typeface will often result in readability being better, not worse. Typically, the limiting factor for how large you can afford to make the lyrics is the horizontal spacing, not the vertical. By using a condensed typeface, you potentially make it possible to use a larger size type with no adverse effect on the music spacing. True, 9-point condensed is less readable than 9-point regular, but if the choice is between 9-point condensed and 7-point regular, the condensed is an improvement. ... On the larger question, I am generally of the opinion that lyrics are always printed too small. Obviously that rule can't be taken to the extreme, but I almost never see lyrics that are bigger than they need to be, while I often see lyrics that are smaller than they need to be. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] minimum font size for lyrics in score?
At 4:54 PM -0800 1/9/10, Ryan wrote: Hi, Just curious if any of you have a limit on the minimum size of lyrics in a score, or if there's a general rule of thumb I should follow. In Mosaic I used 12 point for entering lyrics (so I could read them on screen), then changed them to 10 point for the final layout, using 16 point or 18 point staves for choral scores. But once you get into system reductions I'm lost. Mosaic didn't have that capability. I'm preparing a score with lyrics set at 13 point. I'm using a system reduction of 50%, giving me a "real" size of 6.5 point. While I feel it's proportional to the size of the music, it's not very legible to a conductor who's trying to lead the orchestra and chorus. But, I'm curious if it really matters to the conductor. The choral parts will be larger, and I doubt the chorus master would use the full score to rehearse. Damn right it's important to the conductor! Rehearsal starts or corrections for singers are often given in terms of lyrics, much more often than rehearsal letters or numbers. I could bump up the lyric size to 16 point, giving me a "real" size of 8 point. But since the choral octavo is linked to the score, the lyrics will be too large. I could use a fixed point size, but I'm not happy with how Finale spaces lyrics of a fixed point size. Do whatever you have to to make the lyrics properly sized in BOTH the score and the vocal score. In my opinion 8 point is still too small. Should I not worry about the conductor's eyes, or is there a solution to the problem? Worry about the eyes, and just leave enough room for the lyrics. Speaking as a conductor, of course, and not an engraver for the moment. I've had to read too many scores and too many parts that had used system reduction just because it's too easy to do in Finale, and the engraver was more concerned with number of pages than with readability! I recommend putting readability FIRST in your priorities. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] minimum font size for lyrics in score?
Ryan wrote: Just curious if any of you have a limit on the minimum size of lyrics in a score, or if there's a general rule of thumb I should follow. My personal practice is a final lyric size for voice parts (including chorus and solos) of about12 points, using a typeface which is easy to read. In instances when this takes too much space between staves, I'll use a typeface with has a similar appearance but a larger "x-height", and a somewhat smaller size. I will also, on occasion, use a condensed, or narrow version of a typeface, when the readability of the lyrics is not the prime consideration. I also suspect that the degree to which the size of the typeface giving the lyrices in his score matters to the conductor probably varies with the conductor. Personally, I'd be inclined to consider breaking the link between the choral score and the "full" score at some point, which would make it trivial to have the choral score with one typeface and size, and the conductor's score with a different typeface and size. ns ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] minimum font size for lyrics in score?
Here's something you can do if you keep the score and parts linked. For the chorus PART, make the lyrics the size you like. Duplicate the chorus staves, copy the contents, and make the font the size you want in the score. Hide the staves inthe score you are using for the chorus PART, using optimisation (you may need TG Tools for that). This way you have the effect of having two different font sizes, one for the parts, one for the score. That being said, I try to put the lyrics large enough to read in the score. 6.5 is too small for me. Score spacing is wider for a score than for parts, so the different spacing problems are much less, IMO. Christopher On Sat Jan 9, at SaturdayJan 9 7:54 PM, Ryan wrote: Hi, Just curious if any of you have a limit on the minimum size of lyrics in a score, or if there's a general rule of thumb I should follow. I'm preparing a score with lyrics set at 13 point. I'm using a system reduction of 50%, giving me a "real" size of 6.5 point. While I feel it's proportional to the size of the music, it's not very legible to a conductor who's trying to lead the orchestra and chorus. But, I'm curious if it really matters to the conductor. The choral parts will be larger, and I doubt the chorus master would use the full score to rehearse. I could bump up the lyric size to 16 point, giving me a "real" size of 8 point. But since the choral octavo is linked to the score, the lyrics will be too large. I could use a fixed point size, but I'm not happy with how Finale spaces lyrics of a fixed point size. Should I not worry about the conductor's eyes, or is there a solution to the problem? Thanks for your help Ryan ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] minimum font size for lyrics in score?
Hi, Just curious if any of you have a limit on the minimum size of lyrics in a score, or if there's a general rule of thumb I should follow. I'm preparing a score with lyrics set at 13 point. I'm using a system reduction of 50%, giving me a "real" size of 6.5 point. While I feel it's proportional to the size of the music, it's not very legible to a conductor who's trying to lead the orchestra and chorus. But, I'm curious if it really matters to the conductor. The choral parts will be larger, and I doubt the chorus master would use the full score to rehearse. I could bump up the lyric size to 16 point, giving me a "real" size of 8 point. But since the choral octavo is linked to the score, the lyrics will be too large. I could use a fixed point size, but I'm not happy with how Finale spaces lyrics of a fixed point size. Should I not worry about the conductor's eyes, or is there a solution to the problem? Thanks for your help Ryan ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
