Re: [Finale] Ties ans slurs
John Poole [Finale Discussion] wrote: Could you clarify which of Garner Read's books you are citing to? I am aware of six books he has written and suspect you are referencing the book entitled "Source Book of Proposed Music Notation Reforms" [I'm quoting since underline/italics is not available]. I do not possess his books and am at a disadvantage to determine what you are citing. "Music Notaion (A Manual of Modern Practice)" Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ties ans slurs
Jari Williamsson wrote: d. collins wrote: I have two tied notes followed by a third note: should the slur ending on the third note start on the first or the second of the tied notes. FWIW, both Garner Read (page 267) and Kurt Ross (page 141) mentions a tie not covered completely by the slur as "incorrect". But of course this doesn't deal with historical editions (just like ties over barlines are now considered to be the "correct" notation, compared to putting dots after the barline or notes directly on the barline). Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Could you clarify which of Garner Read's books you are citing to? I am aware of six books he has written and suspect you are referencing the book entitled "Source Book of Proposed Music Notation Reforms" [I'm quoting since underline/italics is not available]. I do not possess his books and am at a disadvantage to determine what you are citing. -- John Poole Editions Poole http://www.editionspoole.com ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ties ans slurs
On 24 Oct 2004, at 05:03 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote: I just looked up a couple of volumes from the Mozart complete edition at random, and they consistently start the slur on the second note of two tied over notes. I think the problem is that both Read and Ross follow a early 20th century tradition. From that point of view they are both correct. However, things have changed, especially for critical editions, and you will probably find that the Mozart complete edition approach is now used in pretty much all Bärenreiter, Henle, UE, and probably also recent Schott, Eulenburg, Peters and even Breitkopf editions. To be honest, for me a slur covering the whole tie actually looks old-fashioned, but 90% of my playing is from either 18th century or modern critical editions. However, depending on the context both ways are valid and correct. I had no idea the situation you describe was ever acceptable. In fact, I've been desperately trying to get one of my copying clients to *stop* putting in slurs that only extend to the first of two (or more) tied notes -- he does this purely out of laziness. But it means when I get his Finale scores, I have to do all of his slurs over again. It's been driving me nuts, as I recently had to recreate almost every single slur over the course of 19 orchestral arrangements. I don't think I'll tell him about the "historical edition" loophole. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ties ans slurs
I think this is a good decision, in line with most (European) publications of this sort and this day. I would almost certainly do the same. Johannes d. collins wrote: Thanks to all for the valuable advice, and in particular to Johannes for explaining both options in this situation. The source (17th century) of this vocal piece only uses one tie/slur in the text itself, to indicate that the syllable is held over all three notes (one whole note and two quarter notes, with the same pitch for the first two notes). I think the slur starting on the second note looks better, and since there is no ambiguity, this is what I'm tempted to do. Thanks again, Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ties ans slurs
I don't think there is a distinction, though. I have never seen an edition where the two are mixed. Johannes d. collins wrote: Jari Williamsson écrit: FWIW, both Garner Read (page 267) and Kurt Ross (page 141) mentions a tie not covered completely by the slur as "incorrect". But of course this doesn't deal with historical editions (just like ties over barlines are now considered to be the "correct" notation, compared to putting dots after the barline or notes directly on the barline). I did check Read and Ross before posting my question, and the pages you refer in both books mention only the case of a slur finishing on a tied note, and not my case, where the tied note comes at the beginning. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ties ans slurs
I just looked up a couple of volumes from the Mozart complete edition at random, and they consistently start the slur on the second note of two tied over notes. I think the problem is that both Read and Ross follow a early 20th century tradition. From that point of view they are both correct. However, things have changed, especially for critical editions, and you will probably find that the Mozart complete edition approach is now used in pretty much all Bärenreiter, Henle, UE, and probably also recent Schott, Eulenburg, Peters and even Breitkopf editions. To be honest, for me a slur covering the whole tie actually looks old-fashioned, but 90% of my playing is from either 18th century or modern critical editions. However, depending on the context both ways are valid and correct. Johannes Jari Williamsson wrote: d. collins wrote: I have two tied notes followed by a third note: should the slur ending on the third note start on the first or the second of the tied notes. FWIW, both Garner Read (page 267) and Kurt Ross (page 141) mentions a tie not covered completely by the slur as "incorrect". But of course this doesn't deal with historical editions (just like ties over barlines are now considered to be the "correct" notation, compared to putting dots after the barline or notes directly on the barline). Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ties ans slurs
d. collins wrote: I have two tied notes followed by a third note: should the slur ending on the third note start on the first or the second of the tied notes. FWIW, both Garner Read (page 267) and Kurt Ross (page 141) mentions a tie not covered completely by the slur as "incorrect". But of course this doesn't deal with historical editions (just like ties over barlines are now considered to be the "correct" notation, compared to putting dots after the barline or notes directly on the barline). Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ties ans slurs
John Howell wrote: At 9:58 PM +0200 10/23/04, d. collins wrote: I have two tied notes followed by a third note: should the slur ending on the third note start on the first or the second of the tied notes. And a related question: if one uses so-called "European" ties that look like slurs and a note has both a tie and a slur starting (or ending) on it, does one simply move the slur vertically to avoid the collision, or does one also move the tie a bit horizontally, and perhaps the slur also, so that less vertical movement is required? Thanks, Dennis Personal opinion and nothing more: while I have seen both publications and finale output by amateurs that would slur from the 2nd note I find it confusing and never use it myself. The slur covers all 3 notes, and I run it from the 1st note to the 3rd. The ties are within that slur. Others may differ. John Agreed. If you consider the noteheads just as components of the notes, you would tie from the beginning of the duration of the sound to the end - from the outer boundaries of the ties. This gives a concept that I work from, and the pieces I find easiest to read also work this way But that's just what works for me. cd ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ties ans slurs
At 9:58 PM +0200 10/23/04, d. collins wrote: I have two tied notes followed by a third note: should the slur ending on the third note start on the first or the second of the tied notes. And a related question: if one uses so-called "European" ties that look like slurs and a note has both a tie and a slur starting (or ending) on it, does one simply move the slur vertically to avoid the collision, or does one also move the tie a bit horizontally, and perhaps the slur also, so that less vertical movement is required? Thanks, Dennis Personal opinion and nothing more: while I have seen both publications and finale output by amateurs that would slur from the 2nd note I find it confusing and never use it myself. The slur covers all 3 notes, and I run it from the 1st note to the 3rd. The ties are within that slur. Others may differ. John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ties ans slurs
On Oct 23, 2004, at 1:55 PM, dhbailey wrote: The slur should begin with the first of the two tied notes. The tie should remain close enough to the notehead so as not to leave an unsightly gap, and the slur ending would be moved slightly vertically so as not to overlap the tie. In my opinion. That is my personal preference as well, though I'll sometimes make exceptions if the context warrants it. Johannes is right that there are separate traditions in this and both are valid. It's a style issue, and you have to decide which style you're choosing to follow, whether it's your judgment as a scholar in terms of matching an appropriate historical style or it's your judgment as an engraver in terms of deciding what you consider more readable and attractive. The same problem applies to the end of the slur in a phrase that ends on a tied note. mdl ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ties ans slurs
dhbailey wrote: d. collins wrote: I have two tied notes followed by a third note: should the slur ending on the third note start on the first or the second of the tied notes. The slur should begin with the first of the two tied notes. I don't think there are any grounds for a generalization here. See my other post. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ties ans slurs
d. collins wrote: I have two tied notes followed by a third note: should the slur ending on the third note start on the first or the second of the tied notes. And a related question: if one uses so-called "European" ties that look like slurs and a note has both a tie and a slur starting (or ending) on it, does one simply move the slur vertically to avoid the collision, or does one also move the tie a bit horizontally, and perhaps the slur also, so that less vertical movement is required? The slur should begin with the first of the two tied notes. The tie should remain close enough to the notehead so as not to leave an unsightly gap, and the slur ending would be moved slightly vertically so as not to overlap the tie. In my opinion. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ties ans slurs
d. collins wrote: I have two tied notes followed by a third note: should the slur ending on the third note start on the first or the second of the tied notes. That depends. 18th and early 19th century tradition in prints is usually to have the slur start on the second note. Later 19th and early 20th century tradition is to have the slur start on the first note. Today both conventions are used. The more "traditional" way is to start on the first note. However, in almost all recent critical editions of 18th century music try to be faithful to the earlier tradition (ie start on second note). You will see this in editions like the Neue Bach Ausgabe, Mozart and Haydn complete edition etc. And a related question: if one uses so-called "European" ties that look like slurs and a note has both a tie and a slur starting (or ending) on it, does one simply move the slur vertically to avoid the collision, or does one also move the tie a bit horizontally, and perhaps the slur also, so that less vertical movement is required? Difficult to give a general answer. I usually change both. In fact my tie and slur settings compromise so that most of the time I wouldn't have to change slurs/ties, if the tie end coincides with the slur beginning (ie the critical edition approach which I prefer). When a tie and slur beginning coincide I usually move the slur up. Since my ties start slightly further to the right of the note I don't have to adjust the tie. The best advice is to look at some editions which you like and see what they do. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
