Subject: Re: [Finale] music literacy
Yes, as I said previously, G&S patter songs are notated pitches, and usually performed that way, or as close to that way as the performer can get (I play in the orchestra for NY Gilbert & Sullivan Players)... Good example with My Fair Lady, but I wonder if the song was notated with pitches? I'm guessing yes and Rex Harrison just did not have the ear for it (or he chose to speak not sing pitches)... anyone know that score? -Steve NYC In a message dated 4/6/06 4:53:52 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: "Peter Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Finale] music literacy To: Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original David W. Fenton wrote > On 1 Apr 2006 at 0:05, Robert C L Watson wrote: >> And their origins are G&S patter >> songs and Noel Coward. > > They are both words spoken rhythmically > to musical accompaniment, where the delivery may have definite pitch > contours at times and less definite at others. Not wishing to ignite any flames here, but I have been through all my G&S scores and, without exception, all the patter songs have a written note for each syllable. What's more, in my (amateur) experience, the songs are always sung (pretty quickly, that's true), but never spoken. In the Major General's song the spoken words "lot of news, lot of news" etc, are actually not written in the score, just a grand fermata, so that may have been a later development. But of course, traditions may be different where you are. Whenever the "speaking" of songs instead of singing them is the topic, I'm always reminded of Rex Harrison as Professor Higgins in the London stage production of My Fair Lady. He had a wonderful speaking voice, but you get the definite impression he couldn't sing a note. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Finale] music literacy 2
At 5:38 PM -0700 4/2/06, Chuck Israels wrote: Ernst Toch wrote a choral piece I "sang" as a teenager that had no pitches. Some of the words were (please excuse my ignorance of German spelling, Johannes and others): Popocatepetl ist nicht in Canada, zunder in Mexico, Mexico, Mexico. That would be the "Geographical Fugue," entirely spoken, no instruments, no melody, and yes, it has to fit any reasonable definition of music. As far as I'm concerned , "performance art" is like "post-modern"--meaningless syllables. opinion> I later discovered that theater people know it as well, and use it for warmups. They do it monophonically rather than canonically, or at least the ones I heard did, and it's great for working on vocal inflections. John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Finale] music literacy 2
Ernst Toch wrote a choral piece I "sang" as a teenager that had no pitches. Some of the words were (please excuse my ignorance of German spelling, Johannes and others): Popocatepetl ist nicht in Canada, zunder in Mexico, Mexico, Mexico. Whatever else it was, I remain under the impression that it was music we were "singing". It was interesting rhythm, texture, and timbral nuance, that's for sure. Maybe not enough for some, but at the level of variety and form I remember, it was music to me. Chuck On Apr 2, 2006, at 5:23 PM, dhbailey wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 4/2/06 1:02:26 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << From: Stephen Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Music Man had "rap-like" passages (i.e. parts of "You've Got Trouble") which led to fully pitched-tone cadences as the climax... Not all. "Rock Island", the opening number, is entirely spoken in rhythm (although I think the orchestra does play a chord after the last word). Thanks, I should have remembered that one! Yes, the orchestra plays a chord after the last word (a kind of musical "Ta-da!"). All that happens during the number is rhythm (simulating the train sound) in the background. So while it's part of the show, with just those elements (speech and rhythm) to me it is more like performance-art (without the covering-oneself-with-mud someone else cited). Nothing wrong with it, it has it's attraction, value, worth, etc, but I just don't think of it as "music". (I'd say the same for percussion pieces that did not include any modulated tones.) Interesting -- I'm not sure Meredith Willson would agree with you, though. But of course, he wouldn't be any sort of expert on what music is, I'm sure. Not like the mavens on this list are, anyway. :-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Finale] music literacy 2
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 4/2/06 1:02:26 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << From: Stephen Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Music Man had "rap-like" passages (i.e. parts of "You've Got Trouble") which led to fully pitched-tone cadences as the climax... Not all. "Rock Island", the opening number, is entirely spoken in rhythm (although I think the orchestra does play a chord after the last word). Thanks, I should have remembered that one! Yes, the orchestra plays a chord after the last word (a kind of musical "Ta-da!"). All that happens during the number is rhythm (simulating the train sound) in the background. So while it's part of the show, with just those elements (speech and rhythm) to me it is more like performance-art (without the covering-oneself-with-mud someone else cited). Nothing wrong with it, it has it's attraction, value, worth, etc, but I just don't think of it as "music". (I'd say the same for percussion pieces that did not include any modulated tones.) Interesting -- I'm not sure Meredith Willson would agree with you, though. But of course, he wouldn't be any sort of expert on what music is, I'm sure. Not like the mavens on this list are, anyway. :-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Finale] music literacy 2
In a message dated 4/2/06 1:02:26 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << From: Stephen Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > The Music Man had "rap-like" passages (i.e. parts of "You've Got > Trouble") which led to fully pitched-tone cadences as the climax... Not all. "Rock Island", the opening number, is entirely spoken in rhythm (although I think the orchestra does play a chord after the last word). Thanks, I should have remembered that one! Yes, the orchestra plays a chord after the last word (a kind of musical "Ta-da!"). All that happens during the number is rhythm (simulating the train sound) in the background. So while it's part of the show, with just those elements (speech and rhythm) to me it is more like performance-art (without the covering-oneself-with-mud someone else cited). Nothing wrong with it, it has it's attraction, value, worth, etc, but I just don't think of it as "music". (I'd say the same for percussion pieces that did not include any modulated tones.) -Steve ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Subject: Re: [Finale] music literacy
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > The Music Man had "rap-like" passages (i.e. parts of "You've Got > Trouble") which led to fully pitched-tone cadences as the climax... Not all. "Rock Island", the opening number, is entirely spoken in rhythm (although I think the orchestra does play a chord after the last word). -- Stephen L. Peters [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG fingerprint: A1BF 5A81 03E7 47CE 71E0 3BD4 8DA6 9268 5BB6 4BBE "Love your neighbor, forgive, keep your vows. And a mountain's no place to raise cows." -- Bat Boy: The Musical ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Subject: Re: [Finale] music literacy
In a message dated 4/1/06 1:01:24 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: "Robert C L Watson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Finale] music literacy > ...Thus, one might reasonably say that the parlato songs in The Music Man are a form of rap ... < Nope. They came long before rap. And their origins are G&S patter songs and Noel Coward. >> The G&S patter songs are just that, songs: the patter is a line of tones, though so fast that it may sound sometimes like rapid speech. They could be played on a (pitched) musical instrument. The little I've heard of Noel Coward songs sounded spoken, but I wonder if they were written down in-pitch, but performed in his breathy conversational delivery... The Music Man had "rap-like" passages (i.e. parts of "You've Got Trouble") which led to fully pitched-tone cadences as the climax... -Steve NYC ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Subject: RE: [Finale] music literacy
In a message dated 31/03/2006 19:27:44 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "Rap may have some musical elements in the background (some very basic harmonies, usually playbacks from older recordings of other performers), but essentially it is poetry" I was once called upon to examine candidates in a national exam (gcse). I had examined at this school for about five years. This particular year, amongst the grade 6 + 7 instrumentalists (who, presumably, had been studying their instruments for several years) was a child who performed a rap. I explained to the music teacher that I felt unqualified to mark it as a musical performance since in my view it was mere rhythmic poetry reading and that the performance should be referred to a moderator. I was never asked back. All the best,. Lawrence "þaes ofereode - þisses swa maeg"http://lawrenceyates.co.ukDulcian Wind Quintet: http://dulcianwind.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Subject: RE: [Finale] music literacy
In a message dated 3/31/06 1:01:50 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << From: Phil Daley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [Finale] music literacy Is "rap" music?I don't think so, only in the way that African drum beats are music. To which I would vote "no" . Maybe we need to back up another step and define "music"? >> I would also vote "no". Rap may have some musical elements in the background (some very basic harmonies, usually playbacks from older recordings of other performers), but essentially it is poetry, with dance moves onstage. (Awful poetry, but maybe relevant/appropriate in the way protest songs had been conceived.) I've always believed that music means modulated tones, if not some toe-tapping melody, at least recognizable pitches... Just my humble opinion, Steve NYC ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
