re: decline in Fjord foaling numbers
This message is from: "Janet" when I was talking about quality, I was thinking of a local breeder who was breeding some very straight stifled mares, to an unproven stallion. The stallion, structurally, was quite acceptable although we really know nothing about his trainability or temperament. But a couple of those mares had some serious issues with hind limb structure and I am pretty certain they would not hold up to plowing even half a day, or a 20 mile trail ride, and they would never cut it in the dressage ring. About the only purpose they could fulfill was to be a fuzzy yard ornament. As I conduct a breeding program with a relatively small population of sheep, I understand the value of genetic diversity, but there is always room for culling, and breeding those mares really did nothing to help the Fjord breed. ** My purpose in joining this thread was to suggest that Fjord stallion owners need to share in the 'cost' of this poorer horse market if there are to be more quality Fjords produced. I do not have the numbers, but I'm sure someone here can crank some numbers as to how many foals per year we need to keep the breed afloat. Right now all of the burdon is on the Fjord mare owner. In all other breeds, stallion owners have lowered their fees to reflect the reduced value of foals. But I have not seen such a reduction in the Fjord world. With $1000 stud fees, another $300 in mare care, and approx $250 in vet fees, a foal needs to fetch $1550 just for hitting the ground (and I did not include the cost of keeping the mare). Meanwhile one can buy a fully trained Fjord for $1500 if you shop around. When the market first dropped in 2008, I can understand maintaining status quo in hopes things would turn around soon, but it has been 7 years now. I think it is safe to say this lower value horse market is the new norm. Janet Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
re: decline in Fjord foaling numbers
This message is from: "Janet" Ruthie, one can still be choosy about quality and maintain genetic diversity. Janet Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
re: decline in Fjord foaling numbers
This message is from: "Janet" This message is from: "Ursula Jensen" With the economic decline and the passage of time the number of Fjords being foaled each year is down. Just an observation-food for thought. Brian Jensen As a person who owns three quality Fjord mares since 1997 with the intention to raise a foal each year to sell as a young green broke horse, I stopped breeding back in 2008 when the horse market crashed along with the economy and also due to the ceasation of horse slaughter, which led to a surplus of horses on the market.The word at the trail heads is to lock your trailer as you might find it full of horses when you return from the rideso low is the value of horses, even trained ones, that most are given away. Yet the price of stud fees in the Fjord breed remains at $1000 or higher, and at least one owner will not allow live cover, driving the cost of breeding up even higher. Stud fees in most other breeds are considerably lower. So the only people I know of that are breeding Fjords typically picked up their stock at various auctions and just run an unproven stallion with a herd of unproven mares. Unless the cost of breeding quality horses comes down, this is where future Fjords are coming from. I wish my pockets were deeper and I could just carry on in the interest of the breed without regard to the return, but I live on a shepherd's wages, and the horses have to pay their own way. Janet Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
update on foundering Mare
This message is from: "Janet" Well, it appears to be a hoof abscess, not laminitis. This morning the abcess had opened at the top of the coronary band and she was moving much much much better. I had interpreted her severe lameness as being tender on all four, but evidently that is not the case. As I am aware the abcess could be the result of a mild laminitis (which could date back to the month on pasture...now that makes sense to me), she will be put on restricted rations and a weight loss plan. Thank you for all the help. Janet Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
foundering Mare
This message is from: "Janet" she improved slightly after 10 cc banamine recommended by vet. She is still one very lame pony. I guess what I need is a vet and a farrier in the east central Minnesota region that is equiped and knowlegeable. Any leads? My current vet and farrier are not really up to the challenge. I am watching for any evidence of an underlying cause. I've had horses for 40 years, and have free choiced mature grass hay for most of those years, and never had a horse founder on this kind of hay. Janet Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
foundering mare
This message is from: "Janet" if this is cushings does that change the course of treatment for acute laminitis? Janet Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
foundering mare
This message is from: "Janet" Vet was called, but as expected, advice was limited to bute, banamine, and lots of cold water. that was the largest clinic in the area. I suspect all 4 feet are hurting, but the two diagonal ones hurt the most. Seem to have made improvement in all but one front foot by this evening. The vet did say that a larger clinic (much much further from here) may have some drugs that will be helpful. Anyone have experience with treatments out side of bute and banamine? Yes she is overweight, hay was harvested more than a month ago, mature grass hay free choice, I can change that to limit fed. Janet Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
need help with a foundering mare
This message is from: "Janet" help, it appears one of my mares is foundering. I switched from pasture to hay 2 weeks ago, and found her severely lame this morning. All four seem to hurt but especially one front and one rear. I have her soaking in cold water and gave her 3 grams of bute. Is a vet call worth while? or are they just going to confirm founder and administer bute? Janet Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
blankets
This message is from: "Janet" Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 16:56:59 -0400 From: jhalst7...@aol.com Subject: Blankets This message is from: jhalst7...@aol.com I need some advice on what kind of blanket I should buy for my Fjord, I have never had to blanket my Fjords and I live in Minnesota, and mine are out 24/7. I do think it is a good idea to have a good warm blanket tho in the event any horse was to become ill. I have the NZ rugs with the canvas exterior and wool blanket liner. Janet Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Trip across country
This message is from: "Janet" Hi Linda, when we have done this, we contacted the fair and rodeo grounds for the area we wanted to stay in, and got permission to camp on the grounds, thus being able to use the arena to turn the horses loose in. There are some real nice facilities out there. As a thank you we then sent a small donation to the fair or rodeo board. Janet Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
re: Fjord crossbreeding
This message is from: "Janet" There is only ONE legitimate reason to prohibit Fjord crossbreeding, and that is to preserve the value of purebred Fjords. By preventing crossbreds and mules, there is no cheaper alternative that is Fjord-like, which helps hold up the value of the relatively few purebreds that exist. IMO there is absolutly nothing wrong with this reason, but for some reason, owners and breeders prefer to not mention this one truth. ALL the other excuses are just that, excuses to dodge having to admit the real reason. For example the explanation that DNA will tell you who the parents are but will not tell you what the breed make up is really? If you know who the parents are have you not just identified whether or not the parents are purebred Fjords? If one of the parents is not a registered Fjord, then the animal in question is not a registerable Fjord, simple as that. If someone tries to fraudulantly register a crossbred, the DNA will reveal the fact that one of the parents does not match up to the Fjord horses in the registry. The Fjord breed has been very smart to require DNA for registration. I'm sure this will generate a plethera of stories about Fjord crosses that were not good animals, which is imo irrelevant. You can find bad crosses of all breeds, and then there are also good crosses among all breeds. Finding the few that did not work just is irrelevant. There is nothing inherently bad about crossing breeds. There are bad purebred Fjords out there too. If there is some reason the Fjord does not cross well then there would be no reason to bannish crossbreds as the market would sort that problem out all by itself. The fact the registry had to bannish crossbreeding tells me they are perhaps likely to be too successful, thus posed a threat to breeders of purebred Fjords, because if the value of the purebred is reduced, then the breed could perish by attrition as cheap crossbreds outsell purebreds. I personally have no issue with the rule that crossbreeding is not permitted. One of the things that attracted me to Fjords is that it is one of the few breeds that has held up in value thanks in part to the no crossbreeding rule. But I do have a problem with the myths that are generated about the perils of crossbreeding. Janet Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
wolf biology
This message is from: "Janet" Whether or not this applies to wolves I can't say, but University of Rhode Island researchers working with radio-collared eastern coyotes learned a lot about how packs cover their respective territories, and what happens when an alpha or even other members of a pack are killed. Essentially, it destabilizes their territories and a new pack tends to take over. They also found that some packs sustain themselves on wild food (rabbits, etc.) but that changing the territories often ends up with the new comers killing domestic animals or house pets (relatively easy kills). Here in MN where we have a well established wolf population, the wildlife biologists tell me that it is *very* hard to trap or shoot the alpha pair. That their efforts to stop depredation with trapping usually result in catching the youngest members of the pack. I have heard (attended several wolf biology symposiums) that removing the alpha members (or basically the mated pair) will destabilize a pack or basically allow a neighboring pack to move into the territory, but I have never heard that taking the younger members will do this. It is actually quite normal that the younger wolves (usually the offspring of the mated pair) are driven out of the pack at around a year or so of age. So purging the pack of the younger members is a normal part of wolf biology. I do not understand why having a neighboring pack take over a territory will result in more depredation. Essentially what we are talking about is that the pressure was taken off the population, and a pack in turn was able to expand its hunting grounds, this usually results in less depredation on domestic animals, not more. I too have heard that the eastern coyote is essentially a red wolf x coyote cross. I learned this from the federal trappers in Ohio. Coyotes are suppose to be a 30ish pound animal. The eastern coyote weighs up to 90 lbs! about 1 out of 3 wolves in Minnesota have coyote DNA. I do think that there are potentially some environmental benefits to be had from wolves in Minnesota. Deer liver fluke and lyme disease are rampant problems in my area. These are primarily spread by deer which are more numerous today than they were prior to European settlement. While wolf depredation is very costly, I may offer that lyme disease and liver flukes are perhaps even more costly. Three years ago I grazed some new land, and wound up with 100% liver fluke infection rate in my flock. I lost 20 head to liverfluke, plus my subsequent lambing % dropped by 40%. The total loss was akin to that very bad year I had in 99 when wolves attacked my flock. I have had lyme disease five times now and live with some permanent disability due to lyme disease. every dog on the farm tests possitive for lyme and I spend $500 ++ a year keeping the deer ticks off my dogs. So as you can imagine, I look forward to the prospects of a lowered deer and deer tick population! To make this fjord related, our fuzzy friends are not immune from wolf attacks. We recently had a wolf in our neighborhood. I lost (litterally...he flat out dissapeared) a $1200 ram (the dogs were off tending ewes and lambs elsewhere), and my neighbor has a horse with a serious bite wound in the abdomen. Four horses were killed by wolves in Minnesota last year. Janet Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: How much can a fjord pull
This message is from: "Janet" I missed the original question, so I am not sure of the context, so my answer may or may not be appropriate. Good advice about training a horse incrementally so as to culture confidence, and experience. Thus far I only use my horses in harness for the purpose of pulling heavy objects. I start with a light object (200 lbs) and increase to heavier objects. At first just asking them to move the object a short distance, and then increasing the distance. My goal is to move 800 lb round bales of hay, up a hill, on gravel and on snow. I have three mares who love to pull. It seems like they get as much satisfaction reaching the goal as I do. One of my mares is particularly good at communicating when she thinks she has had enough. She shakes her head and snorts when the job is too hard. Mind you she does not quit, just lets me know what she thinks. Her physical limit is 900 to 1000 lbs dead weight (a bale of hay) on gravel. More than this and she looses footing. imo it is not fair to the horse if they cannot keep their footing. I have not found the upper limit of the other two, who are better built for the job. Foot wear is important when pulling really heavy objects. I use a shoe that accomodates four screw in spikes, and snow pads to keep the snow balls out. I find pulling gets in their head much like gaming does. They anticipate the hard pull and get get a bit up, just like the barrel horse waiting at the gate. Some variety helps keep them fresh. Janet Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH-L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: trimming posts
This message is from: "Janet" I think some folks are getting too wrapped in in the minute details of trimming and are missing the big picture. Those of us who get the list as a digest have, in the recent past recieved a digest that has two new messages, but has maybe 30 posts from the last day or two on it. The second post can be next to impossible to locate because it is burried admist the 30 some old posts and one winds up re reading the entire list from the day before just to find the new message that someone wrote. This is especially problematic when other people who recieve the digest do not trim their posts and re-send the *entire* digest to the list along with their new message. That scenario has been happening A LOT and is very frustrating to those who recieve this as a digest. Rather than sweat over whether one should trim a post to quote one, or two sentences, the list would benefit greatly if at the very least, people trimmed the other 30 posts that do not pertain to their message! Janet Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH-L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
re: dragging the arena
This message is from: "Janet" Unless you have one of those really wide x country breast collars, I would think a collar and hames style harness would be kinder to the horse. The other consideration is the tugs and whether they were built for draft. You don't need a full harness for dragging the arena. i.e. no need for britching etc. for stopping. Janet Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
directional selection
This message is from: "Janet" very good article. I have seen overzealous neutering of dogs with poor hip x rays result in the loss of working ability in a population of Sheep guarding dogs. Many of the neutered dogs remained functionally sound until 8-9 years old, which is the typical working lifespan of a sheep guard dog anyway, so no real benefit was realized, but much was lost. Janet Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
doggie stardom
This message is from: "Janet" Thanks Roberta, There are a couple other films out there featuring our livestock guardian dogs. Animal Planet's K-9 to 5 did a cute story featuring Nikki, a Kuvasz x Maremma, must have been 15 years ago, but I hear they are still showing it in the re runs. The most recent is a documentary by Green Fire about the importance of big predators in the ecosystem of Yellowstone. http://lordsofnature.org/ I had a small role toward the end on how ranchers use LGDs to keep sheep safe from wolves. To make this Fjord related, Gyda did a heroic effort moving some heavy bales up a slippery hill today. You gotta love the heart these horses have. She was enthusiastically accompanied by several dogs each trip up the hill, as if they think she needs an escort. Maybe they are silently cheering her on? Janet -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
fencing the tough ones
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Eileen, what you may need to do (besides making sure you have a bare minimum of 3.2 KV on the fence), is to add a grounded wire so your mare touches both the hot wire and the grounded wire simultaneously. Have these two wires about 14-18 inches apart, with the grounded wire being the lower wire. Your problem is that the sand insulates her so the flow of electricity from the wire through her feet is poor. With a grounded wire, the path of the electricity will go from the hot wire, through the horse to the grounded wire (and down through the ground stake) and will impress her :-) The hard part will be to arrive at the best height and spacing to insure that she touches both wires. we have the same problem when the snow gets deep. Janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
electric fencer
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "Believe me, the wet blade of grass works best to check if you have electricity and is much cheaper.! Jean Gayle" the blade of grass trick will let you know the fence is on, but it won't tell you how many KV are running through, as I cannot tell the difference between 1.8 and 3.2 but the sheep can :-) Nor will it tell you which way to head to find the short, and might not let you know if you have just a trickle going through your ground rod, which would indicate the need to add more ground stakes. It all depends upon how much fence there is to manage as to whether these tools are worth it or not. I finally broke down and got one after having livestock out even though the fence was 'working' as per the blade of grass trick. Horses are for the most part, much easier to deal withwell, except for Fjords with a full winter coat. janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
electric fencing
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Actually, it was precisely the deer problem that made me switch to wood and fiberglass and yes, I do buy my supplies from Premier. As to the sliver problem, purchase only fiberglass posts treated with suncoat (all of Premier's are treated). I have fiber rods here that are 15 yrs old and no slivers. Yes it is indeed the mileage that varies! Steel posts are not a difficult problem with small paddocks, but with 8.5 miles of electric fenceline to manage, I learned real quick to eliminate all steel from the fenceline! Janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
electric fences
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> just this bit of advice for anyone about to purchase materials for an electric fence. Do not use steel posts, they will drive you insane. If the wire slips off an insulator, it will hit the steel and short out the fence. you will have to check every post and of course it will always be the last one you check where the short is at. If instead you use all fiberglass posts, the wire will not short out just because it got knocked out of place and the fence will continue to work. Janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
electric fence question
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Melinda, do you have a fence tester, or could you borrow a fence tester? especially useful would be a digital tester with a fault finder. test your ground stake to see if there is any voltage there. If you find there is voltage on your ground stake, this means that there is a very big short on your fence and/or that your ground is not adequate. Many of the larger fencers require 5 to 8 ground stakes placed as far apart as they are long and connected together. yet many people only put in one stake. If the ground is not your problem, then try and locate the arching (try looking at night). this is where the digital tester is really helpful if it shows you the direction of the fault. Trees definitely sap energy from your fence much more so than grasses because of the deep root system acts like a ground rod. Janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
mowing pastures
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For those advocating mowing the pasture before turning the horses out, I am curious as to why one would do this? Mowing before turnout is just the opposite of what all other livestock graziers would do. Gail is right, mowing before grazing would stimulate regrowth which would be lower in fiber and higher in energy, and potentially more dangerous to horses. Horse pastures are notorously the most mismanaged pastures there are. Horse owners often do not view pasture as a crop, but more as a place for excersize. Horses are also very selective grazers, and despite the reputation sheep have for grazing down to the earth, a horse, with the upper and lower nippers, can actually graze closer than a sheep can. So the typical horse pasture is terribly overgrazed and full of weeds. I would suggest partitioning the pastures into at least 4 sections, turning the horses in once the grasses have begun to produce seed heads, grazing about 50% of what is out there, then clipping the rest if necessary, and letting it rest for 6-8 weeks while you move to the next one. Janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
testing for lyme
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> just one other thought, re the mixed results for lyme disease test. I had lyme disease (three times now) but the first time the doc misdiagnosed the problem, (initial illness put me in bed for 10 days...it was the sickest I've been in my entire life...I lost 20 lbs in 4 days!), the aches and pains from the 'flu' did not go away so 3 months later I went back in and got a lyme test...it was negative. 6 months later I went back in for another test, again negative. It was not until I went in one more time (with a growing list of complaints) at 10 months from the initial illness before I had a possitive test. I will never forget the doctors message on my answering machine "by golly you really do have lyme disease". I just want to point out that a sick animal can sure produce a negative test! So my advice is, if you cannot resolve the problem and it still exists a few months from now, I would re run the lyme (and anaplasmosis) tests. The problem with the vaccine, is that this bug is very unique in that it constantly changes or morphs its protein coat which is what the body's defence system uses to recognize it. So it is next to impossible to produce a vaccine that is going to prepare the body to recognize a bacteria that is constantly changing its appearance. Likewise this is why early tests can miss the problem. Also animals (and humans) that have had lyme before may react badly to the vaccine. janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
lyme disease
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Genie, did your vet test for all the possible tick born diseases in your area? there is as much anaplasmosis here in east central Mn as there is lyme disease. and then there are other nasties if you live in the south, or west. Janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
re Need help
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Linda, I'm not too sure what could have attacked the horse, but I think you can rule out bear and cougar. I've had dogs and sheep attacked by both, and the claw marks would be much further apart (more like one inch or more apart) and the width of the claw mark would be as thick as a pencil. The punctures from a bite wound would be more typically on the back of the neck near the shoulders, and the claw marks typically would be over the back or hips. I think even our smaller cats (lynx and bob cat) would have claws spaced further apart. One of the best ways to determine whodunnit, is to measure the impression of the dentition on the bite wound. If you can identify the upper canine teeth and measure the distance between them. Also measure the width of the tooth. Animals are remarkably consistant in this spacing and size of the tooth. We do have some other tree dwelling critters here, like fishers and pine martins, that are rather rare, but can be very aggressive, but I don't think they would attack a horse. Janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
RE: need help
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wolves would have grabbed the flanks, or under side of the neck. They also tend to create a fair amount of panick so your horses would appear to have been chased through fences etc. Wolves and coyotes would not leave claw marks. Janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
what is happening to the swallows
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I heard in the news that the swallows migrated north at the usual time this year, but spring was so late in coming, and it was so cold the bugs had not hatched out in sufficient numbers, so many swallows starved at the end of their journey. janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
lameness
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> My understanding is that the bute will also help control inflamation and thus can reduce damage from a serious inflamatory response. It does not just mask the pain. Also an abcess can form in the muscle or underlying joint as a result of the kick even if the skin was not broken. Not sure why the vet is looking for a hoof abcess? Janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
update on orphan foal
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> my neighbor's orphaned QH foal died. Autopsy showed that the lungs had not developed normally and it was not getting enough air. I guess the mare knew something that all of us humans, including the vet, missed. thankyou for all of the advice. we will be better prepared should there ever be a next time. Janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
orphan foal
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Help! my neighbor's QH just had a foal, and she will have nothing to do with it. So we have a few questions. 1) we gave the baby sheep's colostrum, but if mom won't let him suck, what kind of milk replacer should be used? 2) how much milk per feeding and how often? 3) any ideas on how to get mom to take her baby? the other horses had 'stolen' the newborn, and so it had become separated from the mother for a while. please email me directly as well as to the list because I only get this as the digest [EMAIL PROTECTED] The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
the key to tick control
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Is to have short green grass, no brush, and no tall dead grass in the pasture. I never pick up any ticks in our sheep pastures, nor do our horses, but the minute we step out into the woods or walk along the road (where the grass is allowed to grow tall and long) we pick up loads of them. It probably helps too, that we have livestock guard dogs that keep the deer out of the pastures. Janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
re Driving today
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> OK Erick...totally unfair...just where do you live to have such a beautiful back drop? and what is the green stuff on the ground??? My fjordies are still leaving fur angels in the snow. Beautiful pics and your fjord looked very good hitched to the forecart! Janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
upside down sheep
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Someone mentioned finding a cast sheep and that the vet would not come to help. It is tough to get veterinarians out for sheep at any time, but part of the reason no one would come could be because the sheep did not need a veterinarian, it just needed someone to steady it for 15-30 minutes while the blood flow resumed to normal. This time of year it is not unusual that sheep get cast because their fleeces are so big, and most are pregnant, so they get down in a depression and just cannot get back up. The weight of their organs push on the aorta, depriving the lower limbs and back of sufficient blood flow, so they are 'asleep' when you first turn them over. Just let them lean against your leg for 15 minutes or so and in a bit they are good to go. Sheep should be checked every 12 -24 hrs this time of year for this very reason. Now to make this fjordy..if my fjords were to find a cast sheep, they would probably try to help it back up! Janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
automatic feeders?
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Gail, you mentioned automatic feeders? could you tell us more? where did you get them, what do they cost, and what are the pit falls? Do you ever have a problem where one horse eats all the feed or do they all come at once? janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Transport from PA to MN and places inbetween
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi folks, I am hauling sheep eastward to NY and PA at the end of March, and will be coming back empty with a 4 horse slant load enclosed trailer approx April 3 or 4. Janet McNally The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
fjord video Guus
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: Ren To: 'Kim Nord' Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 5:59 PM Subject: Fjord Dressage Kim, have you seen this guy? I knew you'd love it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3LKw2tuh4Y Ren the story behind that video is great too, a very talented young lady. I wish she'd have the book translated into english it would delight a young horse crazed girl! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeDYoQtJv_8 Janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
re: mare lost a baby
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sarah, my heart goes out to you, and your mare for such a tragic loss. I maybe can help a bit on the drying up part as I have experience with dairy cattle and sheep, (and our sheep milk like little hosteins). I would give her 24 hrs, and then if you feel she is really uncomfortable, milk her, but milk her out all the way, then try to let her go 48 hrs. Only milk her if she is really tight. The reason for milking out all the way, is that once you open the plug that forms between milkings, you allow bacteria to enter up the teat canal, and the retained milk makes a rich environment to grow more bacteria. So milk her out all the way, but try to extend the amount of time between milkings. Janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Gyda
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Patti wrote: Does not surprise me that Gyda would "talk" to Janet and would also KNOW to rely on her as well. Fjords are awesome ** Patti, I am sure that the early handling as a foal has a lot to do with her trust. I knew she was special when I went to look at her, and I think you might remember I told you her selling feature to me was that she was a thinker. Gyda really thinks things through, and even problem solves such as how to get a bale through a tight gate, or how to move something really heavy. She is the kind of horse that will look out for her human. But about her 'talking'... Not sure if I have mentioned our 'snort index' this is Gyda's way of telling me when she thinks I've asked too much of her. Now Gyda will always always always pull what ever I ask her to pull, but if she thinks it is too much she snorts. One snort = 'I can do this but it is sure heavy'. three snorts = 'there sure had better be something really good waiting for me back at the barn!' and five snorts (along with a vigorous shaking of the head) = 'hey lady, enough is enough!'. Thanks for selling her to me, she will have a place here forever! Janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
no ordinary horse
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Yesterday I was moving some hay with Gyda, which required an up hill pull on a very icy slope. My working horses wear shoes with screw in spikes to help with traction, and I had been getting along with the 1/4 inch ones up until now. Today Gyda slipped and fell. not hard, but just started 'spinning', lost her footing, and kinda slowly collapsed. First to her knees, and then her hind end slipped out too. She tried to get up but kept slipping, She turned to me and nickered. Kinda like "Boss, I need help!" So I told her to 'stand' and she clearly relaxed and decided to stay there laying on the ground, still hooked to the bale, while I went to the barn to fetch my tool kit. She did not move a muscle while I was gone. While she laid on the ground, I kneeled down beside her and changed the screw in spikes in her shoes from the rather warn out 1/4 inch ones to fresh 3/4 inch spikes. She patiently laid there while I worked on her feet. I gathered the reins, and she stayed put. the moment I told her to get up, she got right up, and pulled the bale the rest of the way up the hill. She's a keeper! Janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: loosey goosey
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Did I understand this horse is getting just 2 flakes of alfalfa/grass hay per day plus a can of oats and alfalfa pellets? this is way too little dry matter imo, and then on top of it, is a nutrient rich diet. Much better to have him on mature grass hay to take the weight off. janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
funding fjord demo's
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Gail wrote: Would Starfire Farm be eligible to apply for funding to help them defray the expenses for something like this. *** I was just wondering how is this performance financed? It is surely a great promo for the fjord breed, and I can imagine a bit tough on the pocketbooks of those involved if there is no compensation from the stock show. Great job btw, I was all choked up watching it, it was so...WOW :-) janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
blinders or not?
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I switched to open bridles after my mare spooked into the path of a noisy truck coming up behind her. (the truck swerved and missed us). She was unable to determine where the truck was because of the blinders. Also, doing farm work where I am ground driving her, I found after switching, she was better at guiding the bales of hay through gateways as now she could see what was going on, and having an open bridle solved her moving into me in certain circumstances as now she could see where I was. Taking the blinders off did not make her more spooky but if anything was re assuring. However I have not yet driven her in an open bridle with wheels. I plan to take her to an indoor arena the first time I hook her to wheels in an open bridle, just in case there is anything about seeing the cart disturbs her, although based on my ground driving and hay pulling experience, I'm not expecting it. I have a green broke mare that I also switched to open bridle, again all ground driving/farm work. I think Having the blinders off was also re assuring to her, as now she could see what we were doing (moving bales of hay) and it just simply made more sense to her. Without blinders it was easier to back up to the bale and hook up, as she would actually help me out by possitioning herself with just one cue now that she could see. I did run into one snag that may have been a non event if she had been wearing blinders. One time I tripped over some frozen horse turds and fell flat on my face toward her rear in a way that convinced her I was coming after her, so she took off with the bale forks in tow. The whole thing was very frightening to her and I've been working ever since to get her past that incident. I am making progress, but just point out that blinders might have prevented *that* particular incident. Fjords are pretty smart, I think in my limited experience they are better off without blinders. But I say that without having driven much with wheels. janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
measuring wagon for horse
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi, What measurements do I need to know to decide if a 4 wheeled wagon is the right size for my horses? I need the wagon to fit Fjords that are 14-15 hands. Janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
starfire farm video
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I can view the video but no sound :-( any techies out there that can tell me what I need to do?? janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
building collapse
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Stan, so very sorry your arena collapsed. We have a couple of theraputic horse outfits here that have taken up collections in the community for donations to help achieve some of their needs. Just a thought. janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
weather
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> As Jean said, the weather is changing. I'm surprised we haven't had any reports from you folks in the Midwest and NE. Probably because getting hammered with snow and ice is normal for us. I won't forget the "Holloween Blizzard" of 1991...3 feet of snow and below zero temps on Oct 31. Haven't heard much about global warming recently from certain MN newsanchors. Its a hard sell in MN right now. Janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
re: fjords and stamina
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Jen, your experience sounds normal to me. I think a heavy muscled horse needs more conditioning than a light muscled horse for longer distance, very much like people. thick muscles are better at short powerful jobs, long thin muscles are better at jobs that require endurance. Look at olympic runners, and you will see that the short distance sprinters are very muscular, where as the long distance runners are very thin and slender. Janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
re: are your fjord's houdinis?
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Not all of them, but I have one mare, Helga who has been quite a challenge. I finally gave up and rebuilt everything with rr ties, oak boards, and 5 strand electric fence. "Helga proof" means it is a very substantial enclosure. Incidently, Helga also loves to remove the rubber gaskets around the windows of my horse trailer, and climbs into the water tank year round, even when it is full of ice. I suppose it comes with loving to push on heavy objects... I have not been camping with Helga, but in the past I made a corral out of 1 strand of electrified wire for my horses. I think with Helga, I will make it a 2 strand fence and make sure it is a 6.0 or better. Janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
utube video
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Kelley, what a pleasure to see all those kids having so much fun learning to ride. thanks for sharing. Janet The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
riding in snow/shoes
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I do not ride my horses in winter, my feet get too cold. But I do drive, which is a great winter activity. Mostly I use the horses to move hay, either dragging the big round bales outright, or small bales on a stone boat. It is imparative they have good footing, so I use a shoe typically used on drafts, that has a bar on the toe and the heels. These help a great deal to prevent slipping. I found borium to be about useless when needing traction on icy ground. My farrier warns though, these shoes are not to be used for fast work on ground where they have solid traction. My farrier also puts these plastic pads that are shaped like an extra wide horse shoe under the shoe, the plastic pops out any and all snow marvelously so snowballs are never a problem. Janet
two weanling fillies for sale and one mare
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I have for sale three Norwegian Fjords. Two are just weaned fillies, and the third is a five year old mare trained to ride. The fillies were both born on June 10th 2005, litterally within an hour of each other, imprinted at birth, and currently being handled daily. Elg (pending) is out of my mare FCF Gyda Engel who is a Grabbson daughter and sired by Rokida's stallion Valea's Lee. her barn name 'moose' is fitting, this girl is going to be BIG. $2500. Ingrid (pending) is out of my mare Sawtooth Mountain Anna Lisa and sired by Gromar's Rodrik. Very cute and sweet. $2250 Also for sale is a 5 year old Mare Sawtooth Mountain Anna Lisa, trained by Patti Jo Walter to ride, and has been trail ridden here in MN. I have also done some ground driving in harness, however she needs more training before she can be hitched. Lisa is very sweet, energetic, loves to be ridden, and can cover a lot of ground in a hurry. Nearly bomb proof, she has not ever spooked on the trails, took pride in mastering the high wooden bridge, and water crossings. This fall I took her out for an afternoon ride away from her baby for the first time after a full summer lay off, and she was 100% manners. She is for sale only because she is much too fast in harness to make a good team mate for my other mare Gyda (in fact their gaits are quite different), and most of my work with horses is slow farm work in harness. Lisa is very obedient to the aids, and most suited to a rider who has good control of hands and heels (i.e. not a good fit for a beginner who might send mixed messages). Priced to sell $4500 Janet W McNally 320 384 7262 [EMAIL PROTECTED] best time to reach me by phone is 9-10 am, noon, and 6 pm central time
no digest
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Is it just a coicidence that I have not recieved any fjordhorse digests Since Oct 5, or have I been booted off this list over my contribution on the discussion on crossbreeding? Janet
The Case Against Cross-Breeding Fjords
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I feel have to address this letter, not to make a case for cross breeding fjords, but to examine some information portrayed here about cross breeding. I too, as a member of the NFHR and a fjord owner have accepted the policy of no crossbreeding, and personally, as a mare owner, I cannot imagine why one would take a valuable mare, and cross breed with her to make foals of lesser value than the purebred. I also agree the Fjord is just perfect the way it is for my purposes and have absolutely no desire to change it. I do however differ from others here in that I do not want to be presumptuous and try to second guess why another person might desire to have a cross bred. But as a group of breeders, I think it is important to correctly understand what cross breeding does and does not do, and what truly are potential threats to the integrity of the Fjord breed. We cannot safeguard the integrity of the breed by perpetuating mis information about crossbreeding . Warren brought up several common points of argument which warrant discussion. Warren wrote about a lady who represented a half breed Fjord as a purebred, and therefore if crossbreeding was not allowed, this sort of dishonesty would not happen. Well, it will happen whether crossbreeding is allowed or not. The problem is not that there are crossbreds out there, the problem is there will always be dishonest people, and there will always be folks who are at the beginning of the learning curve who are going to be duped. The antidote is to educate the prospective fjord owning public as to the merits of the purebred Fjord and how to recognize a purebred, and to have policies that safeguard against dishonesty. It is my understanding there are already Fjord crosses happening despite the association rules, and what happens outside of the association, the NFHR has no control over. So the focus should not be on what the association has no control over, but instead should be aimed at education to make wise consumers. In the case of this particular person, the management of the event should have been notified that a fraudulent sale had taken place. Regarding the article in 'the Horse' magazine about the fatal diseases in many other breeds of horses. For those who hold this fear, how is it that you propose these genes will jump into the Fjord breed? Many breeders of cattle and sheep and some breeds of horses, utilize crossbreeding without gene migration being a problem. When breeds are used for crossing, the importance of quality pure breds is heightened because purebred parents that can reliably stamp their breed traits onto the cross are required. A crossbred parent is of little value in a crossbreeding program, the greatest benefits of crossing are acquired in the F1 by mating two purebred parents. So good purebred stock are very important to proper crossbreeding program. As to avoiding those genetic problems, this is why genetic diversity must be presevered -within- the breed to avoid getting stuck in a corner with a limited gene pool. Genetic diversity is preserved via avoiding overuse of certain lines or a single popular stallion. Mutations do and will occur and only a breed with a good healthy, diverse, gene pool will be able to work their way out of a problem should it arise. Crossbred genes cannot enter the purebred population unless either the association allows the registration of crossbreds in a grading up program (NOT done in the NFHR) or because a breeder falsifies papers. So the only way a crossbred Fjord can become registered is if a mare or stallion owner sends in a false pedigree, which in many instances is also going to require the cooperation of another fjord breeder. If a horse is not the offspring of two registered Fjords, then it cannot be registered as a Fjord, it is that simple! btw, false pedigrees are not just a crossbred problem. False pedigrees can happen either accidentally or on purpose within purebred mating, such as when an a high priced stallion was not fertile so another stallion was used in his stead, but the papers reflect the more valuable stallion as the sire. They can happen accidentally when more than one stallion is stood on a farm due to employee error, or inadequate facilities. Whether crossbred or purebred, any animal with a false pedigree is a danger to the integrety of the breed. Thus it is more important to focus on how to maintain breeder integrity, such as requiring DNA samples on all registered horses, and having some teeth in the rules for people who attempt to violate them. (but the teeth need only apply to those attempting to -register- animals with false pedigrees, not focus on punishing owners who are crossbreeding when the breeder is honest and representing the result as a crossbred). My point here is to say that the kind of fear mongering that is used to discourage crossbreeding is really p
caution about lutalayse
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Lutalayse does cause a pregant (cow, horse, sheep, or dog) to abort if done at the proper time. However, it is not without risks. Anytime you mess with the hormones of any animal you risk consequences. The use of lutalayse can result in uterine infections and cystic ovaries, and can render a mare infertile for the rest of her life. It is not a frequent problem, but one that must be weighed against the options. Janet
Classic text definitions of mating systems
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> John F Lasley's book, 'The Genetics of Livestock Improvement' is a classic text on selection and improvement of livestock. The definitions used there in are quite universal. Lasley's work is one of the foundations of modern principles used in animal breeding and selection. he defines inbreeding as: 'a mating system in which progeny are produced by parents more closely related than the average of the population from which they come.' which sounds very close to the definition of a breed with one exception, when defining breed we are looking at the amount of relatedness of a group of animals to the whole species, and with inbreeding we are looking at the relatedness of an individual to a subset within the species from which it came. he defines linebreeding as: 'a system of mating in which the relationship of an individual or individuals is kept as close as possible to some ancestor in the pedigree.' (for which I appologize for my previous definition, which missed the heart of what linebreeding truly is about. But I redeem myself with Lasley's quote later in the chapter 'Linebreeding is often looked upon with favor by breeders, but inbreeding is not, probably because linebreeding is usually not so intense, and when it is used, the inheritance of truly outstanding individuals is concentrated in the pedigree). he defines crossbreeding as: 'the mating of animals of two or more different breeds.' he defines outcrossing as: 'the mating of unrelated animals within a breed.' and then goes on to say that: 'Although crossbreeding is more extreme than outcrossing the genetic effects of both are similar'. [in a separate, more recent text "Genetic Improvement of Cattle and Sheep" by Geoff Simm, defines inbreeding depression as 'The decline of performance, especially in traits associated with functional fitness , such as reproduction rate and disease resistance) which is a consequence of inbreeding'. I add to this that the more prolific the species (i.e. dogs) the easier it is to overcome inbreeding depression because the reproductive rate is naturally very high thus assuring at least one offspring will survive to carry on the next generation. In less prolific animals (i.e. the horse is very low) it is more difficult to overcome inbreeding depression because it may become impossible for each parent to put at least one viable offspring on the ground before it is removed from the breeding population. this same text also states that, 'It (inbreeding) is also an inevitable consequence of long term selection in a closed population.' By forbidding close inbreeding, the NFHR is slowing the rate at which inbreeding impacts the Fjord breed.] I was not aware that the phrase 'out cross' was considered vulgar language, or otherwise inappropriate language for a discussion list consisting of some folks who are active horse breeders especially since outcross refers to matings that take place -within- a pure breed. Since the NFHR forbids inbreeding, I would hope a discussion on the definition and merrits of outcrossing is welcomed and can be included here in a mature and sensible way. Janet
Re: Linebreeding and inbreeding
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi all, the subject of line breeding or inbreeding seems to always stir emotional responses from folks, in part because some like to keep it burried into some kind of mistique. the definition of a purebred, is a group of animals that are more related to each other than the general population (i.e. they share more ancestors in common). the definition of inbreeding is breeding two individuals together that share a common ancestor. Linebreeding is a form of inbreeding, but is simply more discriminating about keeping the distance between relatives as far apart as possible. Genes come in pairs, what linebreeding/inbreeding does is allow identical genes to pair up because they came from the same common ancestor on both sides of the pedigree, we call this condition homozygous for a given gene or trait. Animals that are homozygous for that trait breed true for that trait. The only difference between linebreeding and inbreeding is how fast you get to the homozygous state. Close (inbreeding) produces an animal with lots of homozygous genes quickly, while linebreeding will take longer. There are drawbacks to producing animals with such a high degree of homozygosity. For one fitness traits (i.e. traits such as reproduction, that allow the animal to survive and carry on to produce the next generation) usually function better in animals with a high degree of heterozygous gene pairs (the opposite to homozygous, meaning greater gene diversity...outcrossing and cross breeding produce animals that are heterozygous). So in a highly inbred population, reproductive rate, and newborn survival often decrease. Also in some instances, many serious or lethal genes have increased in inbred populations such that a greater number of animals carry and express the gene. note: these genes were already there, all that linebreeding did was expose and increase the frequency of the bad genes. In the breeding of livestock guard dogs, we see less behavior problems in the dogs that are outcrossed to other livestock guarding breeds (i.e. maximize heterozygous genes). There are a list of behaviors that make these dogs function well, and it seems that the purebreds are overly endowed in one or two to (the point of being eccentric), and lacking in the others, while the outcrosses are much more balanced, expressing all of the desireable behaviors and few negative behaviors. Keep in mind most of the LGD breeds are close cousins, and were interbred just 100 years ago, but modern political boundries and ethnic pride have defined them as distinct breeds. Ray Coppinger has suggested that continued outcrossing may have been an important part to maintaining the working ability in these dogs (read his book 'Dogs'). Purebreeding these dogs, seems to be leading to an increase in the incidence of physical and behavioral problems. Which leads to the biggest argument against inbreeding is that it narrows the diversity of the gene pool, and in small populations (such as the fjord horse) can lead to a genetic dead end where there is no longer enough diversity to work a way out of a negative genetic problem witout outcrossing to another breed. Some possitive aspects of linebreeding are: What makes most breeds breed true, is a high number of homozyous pairs of genes, usually achieved through linebreeding at some point in their history. The consistancy of the fjord horse color, shape, and size, could only have been achieved via linebreeding. Sometimes that linebreeding may have been purely by necessity, i.e. in small mountain populations, livestock are often highly inbred due to the inability to reach unrelated sires and dams. Often the tough environment culls out the unfit animals and you wind up with a hardy animal with a high degree of breed purity (which is to say there is inbreeding). In breeds of horses where there was one founding ancestor, _ALL_ breeding within the breed is linebreeding!!! According to the last Fjord Herald, there were a few sires that figured prominantly in the breed. Wanna bet they show up on both sides of the pedigree on many fjord horses? that is linebreeding. So while linebreeding or inbreeding does have a negative side, and the association is wise to discourage inbreeding (so as to prevent the breed from getting into a genetic trap), we have to keep in mind that some of our unique breeds, such as the Fjord horse may not have even existed without some linebreeding in their history. Janet
Re: fjordhorse-digest V2005 #214
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Mike May wrote: As to the new owner having a legal claim to the papers - I guess you are assuming that the papers were in her name & she actually had the right to sell the horse. If the papers were not in her name then she was actually selling stolen property & I don't see why the new owner would have claim to the papers - or even the horse for that matter. - Yes, that is what I meant, and why I recommend buyers always examine the papers before buying the horse so the buyer can make sure everything is done correctly and up to date. In this instance I would presume the granddaughter would have been unable to produce the papers which would have been a clue that something was amiss. But in addition to making sure the papers are up to date, I would suggest a sales agreement that includes something specific about how the papers are going to be transfered. Sales agreements are just simple contracts that state buyer, seller, price, animals being sold, and conditions of sale, and should include how problems will be resolved, such as what if the horse fails its post purchase exam? to further the importance of examining the papers... I once bought a registered TWH mare with reg. papers, well it turned out the mare had been sold 3 times and not once had the papers been sent back to the registry for transfer, the seller each time just handed the papers to the buyer, each time without signing, which is not the correct way to transfer the registration. Transfers always require a signature of the owner/seller and have to be sent to the registry each time to update the records. I had to find all of the previous owners and get them to sign the papers. Fortunately they all did in this case but you cannot always count on that happening. Janet
abortion/bleeding mares
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I am not a vet, so my comments are nothing more than observations mostly based on thousands of pregnant sheep but abortions almost always are accompanied with a brownish tinge to the blood, i.e. the blood is not fresh. The one exception was when I had a mare promptly abort 5 days after giving her quest, in that case everything was quite fresh, but with no warning. I have observed sheep that had some fresh blood on and off but produced normal live offspring. i.e. fresh blood means there is always hope all is well, brown blood always means something is not well. I believe placenta privia is possible in mares? (where the placenta lays accross the cervix). I think there are some risk factors involved if this is the cause, but it is possible for her to go term without incident. janet
re: registration papers
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The back of one of my NFHR certificate reads that 'it is the responsibility of the SELLER to complete the Transfer Report and record it with the register. But... that is not the same as saying it is the obligation of the seller to sell the horse with the registration papers. There are legitamate reasons a person might sell a purebred animal without papers, so it is important for the buyer to establish whether the animal for sale is being sold with or without its registration papers. imho for this situation, it was not clear if the current owner agreed to purchased the mare with or without papers. If she purchased the mare knowing she was not registered, I really do not think she has the right to demand the papers at this time. From the grandfather's pov, this woman has purchased stolen property (if the grandfather had infact loaned the mare to the grand daughter rather than gave it as a gift ). Since he held onto the papers, it sounds to me it was a loan, or at the very least the sale should have taken place between the grandfather and the buyer since the grandfather appears to be the legal owner of the horse. As a buyer it is always wise to at least have viewed the papers to be sure everything is up to date. Had this buyer required the seller at least show her the papers, she would have known there was a problem. A sales contract between the grand daughter and the buyer stating that the seller was selling " (name of horse) a registered Norwegian Fjord Mare", then at least the new owner would have a legal claim to the papers. I feel for the buyer, esp if she had already paid a fair price for a registered horse with the understanding the grand daughter would take care of the paperwork. But I don't know that she has much of a claim without some kind of proof the seller represented the mare as a registered horse. Janet
stumbling
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> the seat on the 4beat saddle, is a 'web suspended, leather ground seat' what ever that means! but seems to suggest the weight must wind up distributed somehow if the rider is not just directly on the bars. It is correct to describe this saddle not as a flexible tree, but as a flexible bar saddle. Janet
stumbling horses
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I sure would suspect saddle fit as the root cause of stumbling, esp if the same horse does not stumble in harness and all other possibilities have been examined. I am fortunate to occaisionally ride with a lady who gives seminars on saddle fit, and she showed me how my saddle was putting pressure on my mare's shoulder and causing her stumbling. I was wondering if anyone has tried a 4 beat saddle on a fjord? http://gaitsofgold.com/new/content/category/4/23/88/ I know that this saddle was designed for the gaited horse, but in some ways fjords share some common problems with gaited breeds. A lot of gaited horses have a low withers, and round short back. This saddle is treeless, or built on flexible pannels instead of a tree. It also puts the heels slightly ahead of the hips, a possition I find much more comfortable for all day rides. anyone out there have one? janet
fungus and betadine
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> just scrub the affected area, and all the area around it, and where ever it comes in contact with other body parts with the betadine, let it sit for 10 minutes, then rinse. Once per week until the hair grows back. It might be wise to give the entire horse a bath, and the pasture buddies. the spores live in the hair, so even though you clean up one fungus infection, the hair may continue to harbor another. If the hair coat is thick, it might help to clip it down to the skin. Janet
removing that bridle ( long )
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 18:20:32 EDT > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: removing that bridle ( long ) > A good question Janet. This was posted on my Draft horse list a couple of > days ago. Deb is a friend from CA. we sold her a Pioneer Forecart years ago. > With her permission to post. -an account of a horse that bolted upon removing the bridle while still hitched followed- Hi Lisa, that was a good account of why the bridle should never be removed while hitched, but did not answer my question, which was: how is heading a horse considered *as* dangerous as removing the bridle while still hitched? Some one earlier suggested that exhibitors that left the vehichle with just a header in control should be kicked out of the show, and I am trying to understand how these two things are equivalent. to me not removing the bridle while the horse is still hitched is a no brainer, but I do not see how heading a horse that is hitched as nearly the same risk. I have learned the hard way why a hitched horse should never be led on the ground, but again, leading a hitched horse (who is wearing blinders and unable to see the handler) is quite different from heading where the handler is standing facing the horse and in full view thus having much more influence over the horses behavior. Carol, you make a good point and I would agree that once the horse is in orbit, no one on the ground can stop a hitched horse -but- part of the point of heading is to use body language that keeps the horse from bolting in the first place. No, not fool proof, but then nothing is...plenty of horses run off with a driver on board too! IF this is am important safety rule, then I would say it is probably the most often broken safety rule. Has anyone here witnessed a horse that bolted from someone who was properly heading it? I'm not really trying to advocate that droves of people abandon their rigs with headers in charge, only questioning whether this is really such a serious infraction that it is really necessary to enforce strict rules over, or instead shouldn't a more accomodating approach be used to remedy the inevitable problem where drivers need a quick bathroom break. So just what is the most satisfactory solution (when an experienced driver is not available)? A hitching rail? other suggestions? Janet
Re: fjordhorse-digest V2005 #197
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I think most people understand that horses behave very differently when away from home. I also think safety is under rated on the farm, if I get in a wreck at home, chances are no one will be around to know and help, and the kinds of things we are hitching to are potentially much more dangerous than a wheeled vehicle. A loose horse running down a busy road is also a safety hazard to other people. Personally I think the challenges are greater here at home, between cement trucks passing me at 70 mph and pheasants that can burst out from under the horse (and I've had both happen simultaneously!) So I agree safety is safety. But I am having trouble understanding why a properly headed horse hitched to a vehicle is considered as dangerous as unbridling a hitched horse? and why would the tying of reins back on a heavy wagon with the breaks on, presuming the whole rig is heavy enough, and the horse is headed, be unsafe? do you all unhitch your horses when your class is running really late, no experienced driver is handy, and you need a quick trip to the biffy? janet
orthoflex
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> oops forgot my orthoflex comment I have an orthoflex, and it is about the width of a semi quarter horse tree. My mature fjords require a full quarter horse tree. so I agree not all orthoflex saddles are wide enough for a fjord. My orthoflex works good on the young horses until they fill out. also before buying an orthoflex, I'd be sure to try it out. evidently pressure points under the two 'joints' where the pannels rotate can be a problem with some horses. Janet
left footed safety discussion / orthoflex
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi All, I think what could have been a productive discussion on safety at the blue earth show has gotten off on the left foot. I have not even been to BE, but based on the discussion here, it is safe to guess the show is going through some growing pains, which is a good sign for the Fjord breed. It is just a shame some of the sugestions came accross as negative critisisms. We really should not be placing blame, but just opening a discussion how the show can be made better and safer and I'm inclined to believe that is what most really meant to do in the first place, it just did not come out that way. regarding some of the suggestions, thank you Sara for pointing out that horses used for farm work are trained to stand when tied back by the reins to the implement. It is pretty tough to run off with a plow set in the ground with just the bit! that training can apply to a heavy wagon with the brakes set too. It does appear there may be a need for a hitching rail near the biffy's? I mean who has -not- had to use the biffy just before their class? I'm sure the class will be much safer if everyone in there can concentrate on driving . I bet that rail is handy for riders too! As to heading a hitched horse... I've never shown before, but heading hitched horses is a necessity through out early training, as the driver enters or gets out of the cart, or on the farm when training a youngster to hitch to an implement. If heading is a safe practice when training a young horse, how is it not a satisfactory way to control a trained horse, and how is a hitching rail going to be much better? If a horse is going to really freak out, it will make a mess at the rail too. Janet
re: western saddle question
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I am 5'4 and can scarcely ride in a western saddle with 'average' length to the leathers. You really need to have custom made short fenders. The fenders need to be short enough such that you have 3-4 inches of 2 inch wide leather just above the stirrup, before you get to the fender part. This allows the leather to twist and reduces the strain on your ankles knees and hips. So you don't just need short enough leathers to be able to reach the stirrups, but you need to be sure they are short enough to twist properly. a quick fix you can try is to put a pair of english leathers on. They won't give you the comfort of the fender, but they are much more adjustable. But really a custom saddle is the best way to go. Janet
fred hook saddle and trail bridle
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I use a halter/bridle for all of my trail riding. The advantages of course is not having to wear both a bridle and halter together which cuts down on the amount of gear to pack (or forget!). But there are disadvantages. For one, snapping the bit on and off is actually not easier than putting a bridle on. When I put a regular bridle on, my right hand is above the poll, reminding the horse to lower her head so I can place the bit in which is held correctly by the cheek straps, thus freeing my left hand to remind them to open the mouth. With the halter/bridle, I have to snap one side of the bit onto the d ring, and then ask the horse to open its mouth while I slip the bit in, kindof at an angle. this requires two hands. It seems that my horses object to this a little bit. Not a big deal, but if they do object my hands are unfortunately tied up down at the mouth, so I have no way to put pressure up on the poll while asking them to open the mouth, and up comes the head. Likewise when removing the bit, it seems like my horses prefer the bit be lowered with the bridle. The kind of sideways removal as is done with the halter bridle seems to catch them off guard and they are more likely to get banged on the teeth and once again, both hands are busy with the bit so no hand is available to push down on the poll. So while I would recommend the halter bridle for the convenience of one less item of tack to haul around, I would not suggest that it is easier to bridle the horse with one. there is a photo of this halter/bridle on our webpage www.tamaracksheep.com click on fjor horses, then you have to scroll down tot he very last photo of Gyda and Gizmo. btw, there are good ones and bad ones out there. Remember, if this is going to be your only halter, it had better be sturdy enough to hold up to what ever kind of trouble your horse can get into. Some halter/bridles have only a whimpy little snap on the throat latch. I'd prefer one that buckles. some one mentioned the Fred Hook Saddle had a double cinch, that is put out by the same Montana Saddlery that I had recommended earlier. Janet
oregon trail competition
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wow, what an all out trail class! Looks like they moved the whole mountain into the arena see www.annawightphotography.com I have two questions... for those that attended... one of the obstacles was a pit with water in it. It appears most horses jumped over it, some walked through it. Was method of passage optional? Same question about logs, can you choose to jump or step over? the other question is there any thing comperable to this (really fun) looking trail class in the Mid West??? janet
re: double packing cinch
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> While I agree with Jerry that slipping saddles and loads are a balance issue, I for one certainly prefer that when my horse makes an unpredicted move, and catches me off guard, that my saddle or my equipment will stay reasonably centered on the horse. I've packed hay to sheep on an english saddle, but equipment made for the purpose certainly makes the job less hazardous. For those looking for a double packing cinch, here are some good folks to help: Walkers Pack Saddlery 541 569 2226 and for those looking for a saddle made just for the double cinch (and round backed horses) try Montana Pack and Saddlery. They also have the double cinches 1 800 448 2043 janet
Livestock guarding dog puppies for sale
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> We have a litter of livestock guarding dog puppies for sale. This particular litter is 1/2 Spanish Mastiff and 1/2 Polish Tatra both livestock guarding breeds from their respective countries and both parents are effective working dogs. Livestock guarding dogs can make good stable companions adding security to your stable and pastures for those of you who live in an area with cougar or wolves (and two legged predators too!). Pups have been socialized with sheep, cattle, and fjord horses. check out our website www.tamaracksheep.com for details we have two white males, one white female, and one spotted female available. Janet
Re: fjordhorse-digest V2005 #149
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> someone wrote: the Fjord breed might do well to make extended effort to promote and retain the Fjord's inherent draft ethic--to embrace that large portion of Fjords seldom heard from ..if, as some say, it is a vanishing facet of the Fjord world perhaps we are remiss in allowing it to be so? - This should be done not for history sake, but because the fjord is used by many for draft work today. We use a fjord for feeding the cattle and rely on her steady sensible temperment and great work ethic. Not every fjord is capable of doing the job safely, so there is a need to recognize the type of temperment required for work. I would not be surprised if the rising fuel prices and ever escalating cost of machinery does not bring about a resurgence of interest in using horses on small farms. Janet
re: swollon throat
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> these lymph nodes some have mentioned, are you talking about the glands behind the jowels, a bit below the ear? they are not really swollen as in hard, but just large. I have noticed that more than 50% of the fjords I've inspected when purchasing, had these large glands as do a couple of my horses here. I guess I would not worry about it, all were and are healthy. Janet
Pasture grass
This message is from: Janet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Carol, more important than shade is how much hoof traffic the area is going to get, or if mowed how short are you going to keep it. Orchard grass will not tolerate close grazing or frequent mowing. Blue grass and some varieties of rye grasses hold up better, even if it is shady. Orchard grass is best used where you rotate pastures and do not graze continuously. Janet
here a bear there a bear
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Carol, what is with the bears this year anyway? we had a 400 lb boar strolling down hwy 61 oblivious to traffic a week or so ago. Another got struck and killed nearby. Never seen this happen here before even though we've always had plenty of bears, they are usually very secretive. Janet
what are the odds?
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Last July took both my mares FCF Gyda Engel and Sawtooth Mountain Anna Lisa to two different farms for breeding (Gyda went to Lee, and Lisa went to see Rodrick) . As it happened, both mares were bred on exactly the same days, to which I thought, gee, what a coincidence, but they went one step further and this morning both mares foaled at the same time, giving me two more fillies! Now what are the odds of such synchrony! I guess they wanted to hurry up and put their babies on display for the bike a thon which will put 3,000 bicyles past their pasture tomorrow. Janet McNally
cinnamon
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Alex, You are to be commended for the wonderful care you have given to your aging companion. The very fact he has gotten this far is testimony to having met his needs and then some. The question you ask, basically where does one draw the line and call the vet, can only be answered individually from your heart. Each of us knows what we can do, and at this point you have done much more than many would have done to keep an older horse healthy and happy. If he reaches a point where you can no longer meet his needs such that he has to suffer, either due to the limitations of your own health or demands on your time or finances, then that may be the time, and do not feel like you have shorted him one iota, you have given him way more than many folks could have ever done. Best wishes as well for your own future health and well being. Janet
contact Mike May
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Could someone please email me Mike May's email address? I could not get the 'contact NFHR' link to work. thanks Janet
re: close behind
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> When a draft horse pulls, the hocks tend to spread apart with the effort. If the hocks are too wide, they will loose the power of leverage as they spread. So the hocks need to be oriented inward somewhat to maintain the leverage. I agree with others who have said 'cow hocked' is not correct. Janet
Close Behind in Fjords
This message is from: Janet Bonner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> In draft breeds, standing close behind is considered a good thing. The reasoning is that a "cow-hocked" horse, who stands with hocks close together and toeing slightly out, moves in such a way that he has plenty of room to extend the hind leg without being limited by their big rib cage. In other words, a draft horse who stands foursquare will be limited in his forward movement behind, as that large barrel/tummy will interfere. A draft horse who stands with hocks close together and toes pointing slightly out will swing his hind leg out slightly when he moves, allowing for more clearance. This conformation obviously works best for drafts, whose working gait is a walk; lighter, more active breeds will not benefit from being close behind, as this conformation lends itself to paddling, and causes a less efficient gait. What is a conformation "fault" in some horses/breeds is not necessarily a fault in others. Good conformation is a function of utility. It is not surprising that some fjords have this conformation, given their drafty build. The drafty ones are built for slow steady work, and having a back leg that moves slightly out away from the barrel of the horse is an adaptation that allows them more efficient use of their hindquarters. The fjordss that we want to use for riding horses will benefit from a more foursquare stance; those who are used as draft horses will be well served by standing close behind. Jan Bonner, in chilly Virginia where there is frost on the ground this morning Janet Bonner Lynnhaven Farm Scottsville, VA
MN horse expo
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> kit rogers and family brought lea and flick, and gave wagon rides as they have for years. --- did you mean to say Kit Davis and Lee? Janet
put those fjordies to work and save gas
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> This photo is posted at the Rural Heritage website http://www.ruralheritage.com/messageboard/frontporch/5862-0.htm gives new meaning to back seat driver! Janet
fjord herald
This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Now that I have had a chance to read through the Fjord Herald I have to > agree with Taffy. I very much enjoyed the magazine. Surely these reports are purely to torment those of us who have not yet recieved our copy! Janet
how low can I go?
This message is from: "janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I need some help with fitting a bridle. I am working with a 5 year old mare that is learning to drive. I have ridden her for 2 years. She has been very fussy in the driving bridle, shaking her head, rearing, and when I ask for whoa, I get whoa and about 5 steps backwards. A list member suggested checking her wolf teeth, and sure enough, the bit is pinching the corner of the lip against the tooth.Before I have these teeth removed, I'd like to see if lowering the bit will solve the problem. I'm wondering how far I can drop the bit? Right now I have one good wrinkle in the corner of the mouth. If the teeth have to come out, how long do you wait before using a bridle again? Janet
Sonny
This message is from: "janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Beth, did I understand correctly, that Sonny has only had 45 days of training? that is not enough time to train a horse to the point he is ready to ride by a beginner. He barely has been introduced to the saddle. Most likely Sonny is being strong on the lounge, because he does not fully understand what he is suppose to do, he is trying to escape a confusing situation. I like to put a minimum of 60 days of training on my young horses with a professional before I get them, but in doing that I fully realize I -still- have a lot of work to do just to get the horse to be a safe trail horse. I depend upon the professional to get the horse going well enough so he understands the basics, but it takes lots of repetition over a year or two under an experienced rider/driver to take that horse from 60 days to a dependable family horse. It sounds like you might be best off either sending Sonny back for a considerably longer time with a trainer (and I question the credibility of a trainer who would have accepted him for only 45 days), or realize that maybe you might enjoy a seasoned older horse a lot more than a youngster who requires a lot of regular work. Janet W McNally
driving bridles
This message is from: "janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I would think the only way to go is custom made. I had my work harness made by Samson's Harness shop 218-865-4602 he did a wonderful quality job and everything fits. Bernie does fancy harness too. There is no way my horses could get those bridles off. Janet
Another Fjord horse Buying question
This message is from: "janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Someone asked what would be the 'job description' for a future Fjord owner. I previously had owned Tennessee Walkers for many years. There are two big differences that stood out, one was that I had to be more physical to preserve my personal space. I needed to sprout some sharp elbows and use them with athority. The walkers just naturally stayed out of my way... often out of reach. The other is I needed stronger facilities, as my Fjords happily push on anything to get one more blade of grass. The benefits are that I never have to go 'fetch' my horses. Instead they clamor for my attention at the gate because they all want to come along, and I can turn that willingness to push into work. Fjords do spook, but not as often, and its over as soon as it starts. Janet
Re: fjordhorse-digest V2005 #36
This message is from: "janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Packing This message is from: "The Mercers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Do any of you folks do packing? I'm interested in purchasing a set-up but not sure if I want the full pack set-up or over the saddle setup. I'd only be out for a couple days at a time. Help! Taffy Hi Taffy, We've done a couple of packing trips. I don't know what your budget is like, but ours is tight. We opted to learn how to use ropes and used the basket hitch on our saddles, wrapping our goods in a manty. We led the horses in loaded, rode them around in the back country, then led them out loaded with elk. the advantage to the manty approach, is several. One is it allowed various sizes and shapes to be packed, such as the elk quarters which would not fit very well into a regular panier. Also you have the manty's to cover your gear. The biggest advantage was not having to pour $$$ into equipment we will not use very often. The ropes and manty's are useful for other purposes too. There are some great books on the subject. one is called 'packin in on horses and mules' and the other is 'horse packing in pictures'. btw, it is best to have 'hard' seat, slick forked saddles. If you don't have a hard seat, you might want to protect the seat with something (we use a sheepskin). We even succesfully packed an elk on an ausie saddle. Janet
buying horses
This message is from: "janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi All, I'd never buy a horse without trying it out. Far too few people selling horses do an adequate job of describing the real nature of the horse. Every animal has its good and bad points, the question is are they features you can deal with, or are they problems you are not able to cope with. A bad match can lead to disaster, or at least a very unpleasant relationship. It is so important that you and the horse click together, and you just won't know that without spending some time with them. I too purchased my first Fjord from Patti Walter. Patti is the first person I have ever met that could accurately describe what she had for sale. Gyda has been a great match for me, and we work well together. Patti spent quite a bit of time letting me get to know her, which helped me feel confident this was the right horse. btw, I always recommend going to look at a horse sans trailer. It makes it much easier to leave if you discover the horse is not what you want. The trip back also gives you lots of thinking time. Janet
NFHR website
This message is from: "janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Thank you Mike May has contacted me to help. I do not know why I could not down load the forms. I do have a recent version of acrobat, but was getting jumbled up jibberish coming out of my printer, and also the forms themselves were missing. Janet
bloodlines and behavior
This message is from: "janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Patti Walter wrote: >Anyway, we got talking about Appy lines > and he would go on to say, that stallion throws brains, that stallion throws > performance, that stallion throws disposition, that one, those babie won't go > thru water. Hi Patti, my experience with horses in this regard is limited, but I certainly have seen these family trends in other animals. I have a guard dog here who has produced 55 puppies, and 100% of them bury their food. My stud tends to produce very 'talkative' puppies. Border collies are full of fascinating family trends, with some families being 'sticky' i.e. freeze up when their eyes lock onto a sheep, and other being 'too loose' i.e. you can never get them to stop moving for starters. One of the more odd family trends I've seen was in sheep, where nearly all of the lambs out of a certain ram would lie down the minute you got your hands on them. Made moving them about very difficult! Anyway I think it would be wonderful to have a summary of behaviors common to various family lines. While I do agree with Karen that it would be problematic to make this objective, and I do endorse having a disposition/trainability aspect to evaluation, there are just some particulars you cannot test at an evaluation. I would wager the mare actually has more than 50% of the influence on the foal. She spends nearly 6 months rearing the foal, and it has been said, that a mare that allows the baby to push her around often produces foals that are head strong vs the mare that disciplins her baby. But since one stallion produces many babies a year vs one per year for the mare, following stallion lines is going to be more productive. Janet
Loki
This message is from: "janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Sher, I know that it must have been a very hard decision for you, but I really do think you are making the right decision for both of you. Janet
NFHR website
This message is from: "janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi folks, I tried down loading the registration applications from the NFHR website and could not get any forms for registration or DNA. Also when I emailed the NFHR the email bounced. Is there another email address I can use to contact the registry? Janet
ice/snowballs/cold
This message is from: "janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi All, my horses have to walk up a hill to get to the water, and this year we had 2 inches solid ice due to snow then rain. I spread plain stock salt first, then, because I could not find any sand, used coarse barn lime on top. I'm not worried about the horses ingesting the lime or sand as it was not spread where they eat, they were curious, but did not bother with it (my clothing being far more intresting). It is important to allow all livestock freedom to move about to keep good circulation to the feet during severe cold, so personally I think they are worse off in a stall than outdoors if the stall is not heated. The must vulnerable places are the ears and feet due to cold. Bedding is worth 32 degrees, so even just some bedding outdoors in a place with a windbreak can keep critters pretty warm. The real bitter cold is always clear and bright, and our horses can always be found basking in the sun back by the woods which both provides a windbreak and also a solar collector. As Jean mentions hay creates heat from fermentation in the gut. I free choice hat to all my livestock during bitter cold weather. Not so sure about the horses, but I know the sheep can double their hay intake during 30 below weather. My work horses that move hay have 'draft' type shoes with a bar on the toe, and on the heals, the only reason they wear shoes is for traction. My fairier tried a new pad this year and I absolutely love it, it is plastic, shaped like a horse shoe but wider, there is a tube running around the inside rim. It does not cover all of the sole or the frog, just the outside portion of the sole. The pad sheds 100% of the snow like magic, I've never seen anything work this good. Because the pad does not cover the sole, the horses also have better traction because they can get a better foothold on snow. -21.5 here this morning. Janet
winter blahs
This message is from: "janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> One exercise that you do occasionally is just sit with your horse and basically do nothing. I would recommend to anyone to try it, just to see what your horse will do. - LOL, well mine would disrobe me one button at a time. First they'd take off my hat and play with it until that gets boring, then come back and try every button and zipper they can work. My mare can zip and unzip my coat with the greatest of precision. Janet
spooky horses
This message is from: "janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Yesterday I had the priviledge to visit with a local man known for his horse wisdom. He writes for a local horse paper and dropped a few off for me. In my mind, this man is better than the guys with the big names because he always gets to the heart of the matter and does not clutter my mind with detailed procedures that may or may not fit the situation. He wrote an article asking the question is the horse green, or is he spoiled? In the article he points out something valuable that is easy to forget when we are busy dealing with the every day stuff. Horses are herd animals that depend upon having a leader to guide them. If there is no leader they depend upon their own instincts. If you as the rider do not impart clear authority as the leader, the horse is not going to trust you when you say 'all is well, don't be afraid' and will rely on his own instincts instead, thus is more likely to spook. Likewise a horse that should know better, can seem untrained or green in many ways, simply because his rider/handler is not imparting leadership. He points out that when everything is going the way the horse wants it, he can seem so sweet and compliant, but when things are to his disliking that is when it becomes clear who is in control. This is one of the downfalls of reward-only based training. The horse learns to obey as long as he is wanting the reward, but the minute he does not care (something else is more important at the moment, like the cement truck coming down the road) then the training goes out the window because it was not based on authority. Whoa is a very simple and basic command. It is the same command whether a horse is in harness or under saddle or at the end of a lead rope. Failing to whoa is very simple, the horse is ignoring the handler, i.e. the horse is in control. If a horse will not whoa, one can guess that all other aspects of the human/horse relationship are lacking basic respect for authority as well. May I suggest that if a horse owner finds themselves unable to control a willful horse, that it is more important that the *owner* recieve an education, so they can learn how to establish leadership. The other alternative is to just accept that they are in over their heads with the particular horse and find something more suitable for their abilities before someone gets hurt. Janet
spooky horses
This message is from: "janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cher wrote: But I can see one lesson at a time is not enough. He needs more time, daily, with the trainer before he's at a stage that I can work with him at home, alone. He's 17 yrs old, with years of driving behind him - and is spooking at everything like an inexperienced 2 yr old. (sigh) That's disappointing - but something that *can* be trained through. --- I am not a horse trainer or expert, but I did have a horse teach me about recreational spookiness once, and I really have to wonder why, at 17 years old, Loki is so spooky. Horses usually mellow out, even the spooky ones by their teens, on top of that we are talking about a Fjord, a breed with a very long fuse. The horse I had as a kid, was a remade horse, i.e. had some problems, and a talented trainer remade him, then I purchased him. One by one his 'talents' crept up, and I had to learn how to deal with them. One was what I call recreational spooks. This is where the horse wants to avoid work, or is just simply bored, and spooks at things to manipulate the rider to giving in to his desire. This particular horse was barn sour, and used 'spooks' in hopes it would mean a trip back to the barn. Evidently someone let this work for him once upon a time. Initially I responded to his spooks by soothing him only to find the spooks grew bigger. When they turned into outright balkiness, resulting in rearing over back wards, I saught the help of the trainer who sold him to me. I had to learn how to deal with a rearing horse, and to make him work hard every time he spooked. Eventually he realized that it was hard work to be spooky, but not until I had suffered a couple of significant injuries. Unfortunately it is very hard to figure out what is a genuine spook, and what is a fake spook, so I learned to ride all horses in a way that I give very little attention to spooks, just carry on like nothing happened. I have since then met a horse on a trail ride that was the master of recreational spookiness. He was an arab that I think was simply bored and invented things to entertain himself, and was very inventive in finding ways to sneak a bite of grass. One very unique trick he had, was to pee frequently. I have never seen a horse do this, but he evidently learned that the rider will allow him to stop, scratch his itches and graze a few bites, every time he had to pee, so this horse had to pee a lot. Like maybe 5 times in a 3 hour ride. He also had lots of itches on his ankles, that allowed him to also grab a bite to eat. I have to wonder if Loki isn't a recreational spooker? If so what is really needed is a few techniques to learn how to make spooking unrewarding to him. It is a shame you were hurt so badly. The last thing you want to do is reward a horse with rest that just dumped his rider. If there is ever a way to put him right back to work, so his spook goes unrewarded, it would have been best. Janet
Re: fjordhorse-digest V2004 #294
This message is from: "janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > This message is from: "Lisa Wiley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I have noticed in most of the pictures of Fjords driving that people don't use > collars. I like to drive with a collar and hames. Does anyone use this type > of harness? Hi Lisa, I use a collar and hames, but that is because I use my harness for draft work more than driving. My collar is a heavy farm collar and I do feel it bounces a bit on the neck at the jog. I'm contemplating a neck pad, but if I was strictly driving a cart, I'd go to a lighter collar, or switch to a breast strap style harness. to see a photo, go to www.tamaracksheep.com and click on horses Janet
eating clay
This message is from: "janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sue mentioned her horse sometimes eats clay soil. Bentonite is clay that is deliberately added to the rations of dairy cows when they are eating feeds that contain mold. Apparently the clay binds to the toxins in the mold so they are not absorbed by the cow. Makes me wonder if the horse is self medicating? Janet
