Natural Selection of Stallions
This message is from: "Janne Myrdal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Just wanted to throw a couple of comments into a great discussion. Firstly, thanks to Carol for bringing up the subject, a subject that certainly warrants attention. From growing up around horses in Norway, tho no expert on fjords, you just know the image of a good fjord horse. It is a strong, working animal, and a survivor so to speak, an ALL AROUND horse, from farming (yes still some do) to riding centers etc. I must say I have seen fjords in the US that do not come under the above description, and that is sad, but such happens in all breeds of animals sadly. I think a great example of a strong fjord horse is my Fair Acres Heidi, you can look up her pedigree, of whom my vet, cannot say enough for stamina and sensibility. I doubt if any other breed would have survived what she went thru for 11 days last spring after loosing her foal. Amazing. What I tell people who come to visit our farm to see the horses is the following, these horses have perfected their breed for a few thousand years, and that thru surviving the conditions Carol mentioned of in their homeland. I do not pamper my fjords at all, yet they have better care thatn most horses I see around me in these harsh ND winters, and are healthier that any. And if you read any Norwgian history at all, us norskies were not kind hearted so to speak with animals that would not perform. Well, the times have changed, but we should do anything we can, optionally of course, to improve breeding and the genetic pool. I am far from an expert, as Fjords are pure hobby for us, we breed our mares maybe once every 3 years, as we enjoy the process and especially looking for a good combination for our mares. On the other side of this whole discussion by the way, I believe we may be missing something; just because a stallion performs well and wins ribbons, DOES NOT MEAN he throws good offspring. I have seen otherwise with a friends horses.( OK, now I'll be in trouble as people will try to figure out who etc., UFFDA.) Maybe our "digest vet" Steve can comment on this whole genetic thing??? Signing off on a beautiful day in ND, 38 above! Janne
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This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Listers, and CAROL, Honest to goodness Carol, ONLY someone with either a lot of time or money (or both) can come up with the ideas you do!!! LOL Yes, yes, this is an EXPENSIVE idea! WE are in not in Holland, where distances are 'relatively' short. How many trainers that are familiar with Fjords, are there in the US so that it would be possible to find one nearby to do the training, even if $1,000. was a reasonable price for 90 days? Ah, granted, just one $1,000. fee would pay for it! Perhaps we don't all want to be that 'aggressive' in this business! (I'm sure that will get a comment!) Our Evaluations are even not that easily available for some of us, so I agree with those that suggest we show 'all' that the Fjord can do. That is why we take our horses to exhibits-to show people a different breed and what they can do. AND, that is why we show at all breed shows-to show what the Fjord can do and that we have fun doing it. Just a Fjord being visible at Parades, Shows, Plow Days, etc. can say a lot. How many of these have you participated in Carol? I have been to a couple of the farms where they have the Sport Horse keurings, and believe me, they are out of my class, and I think if something like this was instituted, only the 'rich and famous' could afford it. Well, flame suit will be ready! Regards, Bernie Karns Michigan
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This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 1/20/01 10:09:44 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Further to my earlier message on this subject, I wanted to clarify that I think it is a good idea, but like someone mentioned, it would be extraordinarily expensive (and difficult to just find the trainers and riders who would be qualified enough to run the program) but at some point down the road it may be cost effective. But first we have to create a market for people who can get past the cute/fuzzy thing and consider a Fjord for dressage/cutting/etc. >> Yes, Lori. Carol is great for getting things going on this list : ) That's because she's not afraid to present controversial ideas, and I like that. Her original idea of the 100 day test may not be feasible, but an alternative may. Brigid Wasson San Francisco Bay Area, CA http://members.nbci.com/mrgnpetsit/fjord1";>Our Fjords
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This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 1/20/01 10:26:06 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Besides, I don't think that some of those riders they use in the 100 Day Testings would be overjoyed to be assigned a [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> LOL Karen! Very good points. The horses belonging to your ranch and the others mentioned get good training and exercise without compromise. But there are plenty who don't. I am shocked to find web sites of "Fjord breeders" who own a stallion and a couple mares and breed away. I believe Carol's point is to not let our beautiful Fjordhorse slip away into the bloated image of other breeds (I won't name any!!) who are pretty but useless. Brigid Wasson San Francisco Bay Area, CA http://members.nbci.com/mrgnpetsit/fjord1";>Our Fjords
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This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 1/20/01 11:45:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Certainly you have only to look at any horse catalog to see the most amazing assortment of supplements, blankets, pads, special shoes, etc., to realize that there are a lot of unsound, and weak horses out there. Wonder how many of these are bred? >> Interesting point. I was shocked to read on a general interest horse site of "embryo transplant." It was touted as a great alternative for the mare who is unhealthy enough to carry a foal to term! Duh! Brigid Wasson San Francisco Bay Area, CA http://members.nbci.com/mrgnpetsit/fjord1";>Our Fjords
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This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 07:20 PM 1/20/01 -0400, you wrote: Karen questioned why mares don't go through the same process. The reason is that ideally it's the stallions who have the most influence on a breed, seeing that mares have one foal a year, and stallions several. However, that depends on what standards a breed has for its stalions. I once went to a Morgan breeding conference where they said the average Morgan stallion bred 1.2 mares per year. -- Obviously, as regards influence on the breed, there's not much difference between Morgan mares and stallions. --- That's not the tradition of Fjordhorses. The breed is traditionally improved through the stallions. I think you are overestimating the amount of breeding our Fjord stallions do each year Carol. I just pulled some interesting numbers from the database to add to this 100 day testing discussion. I have found that we have 280 living stallions that were born prior to 1/1/1999 registered in the NFHR. We have 330 total living stallions registered. Now for the interesting part. I registered 370 Fjord horses in 2000. That comes out to 1.32 births for each breeding age stallion. Now I am sure that not all of these 280 are still stallions but I would venture a guess that at least 250 of them are. That makes the births almost 1.5 per stallion. Now I am sure there were also more born that haven't been registered too but I doubt that the number would get much over 2 per stallion even then. I don't have a way (other than counting the mares on the stallion breeding reports) to tell how many mares were actually bred in a particular year. But is sure does seem like we have a whole lot of stallions out there not earning their keep as breeding animals. I do get a LOT of breeding reports with "No mare bred this year" on them. I just leafed through all of the 2000 Stallion Breeding Reports that were filed (155 of them) to see which horse bred the most mares last year. The prize goes to Flotren owned by Julie Will. Flotren bred 18 mares last year, the next highest was 11 mares bred by 2 different stallions. Most of the reports (probably 95%) fit on one page or not more than 6 mares bred. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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This message is from: Steve McIlree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Carol-- Saturday, January 20, 2001, you wrote: > That's a lot of money, I know, but wouldn't it be worth it for a > good stallion? A stallion that can earn $1,000 stud fee? A stallion > that, as an Approved Stallion having done the 100 Days might attract > ten mares ($10,000) the next season? I'm one of the first to agree that there are probably far too many stallions of all breeds in North America, but get real! As much as we may love the Fjord breed, they will never be warmbloods. We can always point to individuals who, with a lot of hard work and good training, can excel in some equestrian discipline, but it takes more consistent performance to make a breed of sport horses. I'm sorry, but irregardless of the quality of stallions from which you may choose, you are never going to see Fjords becoming dominate in any currently recognized horse sport. Unless you propose that the breed be changed radically from the current standard, Fjords will continue to be great all-around horses, but not serious competitors in the sport horse arena. And to sell successfully in the versatility horse market, I think the last thing we need is $1000 stud fees. BTW, I notice on your Web site you have a 1999 colt that you think is a stallion quality horse. He's just the right age to go through the North American Sport Horse Registries 100 day test to be held in Ohio in 2002. Why don't you send him? -- Steve McIlree -- Pferd & Skipper -- Omaha, Nebraska, USA Then we began to ride. My soul smoothed itself out, a long-cramped scroll freshening and fluttering in the wind. --Robert Browning(1812-1889)
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This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 1/20/01 5:42:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > . Does this mean that the Fjord horse would then ONLY be available > to VERY RICH people? Not to burst anyone's bubble, but I think > there's a lot more average families out there than there are rich > families. Therefore, if we're going to keep the Fjord "the perfect > family horse", I think a lot more planning needs to go into this > idea. I see your point, and I also see Carol's. It would be nice if we could ensure that the best of the best are bred. And also nice to see that the horses remain versatile and hardy. So far, I think that Evaluations are doing as good a job as any at that. And we've got a fairly decent sized gene pool to pick from in the U.S. Once we get our hands on the Evaluation Book (hint, hint, WHEN does it get mailed out I can't wait to see it!) we can get a pretty informed idea of what horse is more versatile, etc. The only problem I have with what I read Carol's way of thinking is this, I think that the hardiness of the breed would be affected if the gene pool were to be drastically reduced. Would a 100 day test type of thing as they have in Europe leave us with only a handful of stallions? Thereby giving us no option but to do a lot of inbreeding/linebreeding? I'm not an authority on testing/evaluating, etc., but I think that responsible breeders, using tools available to them (evaluations for one) can breed a strong, versatile Fjordhorse and keep the gene pool healthy strong and viable. Now that we know Mr. Von Bon's (well respected) opinion on stallions, I'd be very interested to know what other equally knowledgable fjord experts have to say on the subject. I am always cautious about getting information from more than one source. Do other authorities see the same trend? I've kept my eyes and ears open and see some stallions out there that I think are everything even the most discriminating expert would approve of, as far as strength, type, ability, hardiness, and I have a filly by one of them (Misha) and am breeding a mare to another one (Hostar) this coming season. I also am very interested in Flotren, and oh my, Konnggard, and, well, I could go on and on! I think there are some fantastic stallions in this country. And I'm very glad to know that they are there to pick the very best match I can for each individual mare that I may breed. Pamela
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This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > The > article was refering to racing horses in particular and the author > felt > that horses were weaker today due to undue "babying". > Jane I'll agree to that. That's one reason it's been so long since we've had a triple crown winner. I even heard a top trainer (D.Wayne Lucas) suggesting we shorten the triple crown races so we would have more winners. If all else fails, lower your standards I guess. Steve Steve and Amy White Prairieholm Farm Waterloo, Nebraska
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This message is from: "truman matz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Here I am messing where I shouldn't be again, but it sounds like this is coming down to a "class" distinction in owners,... those who have mega bucks, and those who don't. Why don't those who DO have the money, go ahead and DO the 100 Day Testing, promote their stallions, and then get the mega bucks they deserve for their breedings or from their off-spring? Why push for something as a REQUIREMENT that ONLY the rich can afford? Why put the little breeder out of business if he's got satisfied customers? Now, I don't yet own a Fjord, so I'm not really part of this thing. But one doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that if all stallions are REQUIRED to do the 100 day testing, folks like me and some with a lot more money than me, would either have to mortgage our homes to buy a Fjord or end up buying some other breed. And that would be a shame Judy-Original Message- From: Karen McCarthy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Saturday, January 20, 2001 12:35 PM Subject: Re: Natural Selection of Stallions - >This message is from: "Karen McCarthy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>I think that's marvelous idea, Carol. Of course most folks will reject it >>because they don't want to go through the trouble or their stallions >>wouldn't make it. > > >--. > >Upon better research on your end, I think you might see that the 100 Day >Testing is very impractical, not to mention severly expensive. It would cost >far more than the market value of a stallion to put him thru something like >this. Would you re-coup it in breedings? Perhaps, if you wanted to spend the >rest of your life promoting him, maybe you could make up for the $$$ spent >in the testing. (Karen) > >_ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > >
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This message is from: "truman matz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I don't even own a Fjord yet, but desire to do so as soon as possible. Fjords are purported to be the "do everything horse", and to be "the family horse". From what I've studied about the breed thus far, I find them to be a wonderful animal, and I surely wouldn't want to see them lose any of their fine qualities. I also don't know anything about the 100 Day Test, (or whatever it was), but have been reading in this listing that it would be VERY expensive. Does this mean that the Fjord horse would then ONLY be available to VERY RICH people? Not to burst anyone's bubble, but I think there's a lot more average families out there than there are rich families. Therefore, if we're going to keep the Fjord "the perfect family horse", I think a lot more planning needs to go into this idea. God bless those with the money. They can do all the things the little guy can't, which is wonderful for the breed. But we need the average families just as much, because they make up the bulk of the Fjord market. Sorry to be just rattling on here, but feel that there's got to be a solution that's to everyone's advantage, and mostly to the advantage of the Fjord. Judy -Original Message- From: Lori Albrough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Saturday, January 20, 2001 12:19 PM Subject: Re: Natural Selection of Stallions - >This message is from: Lori Albrough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> << What do you think? >> >> >> I think that's marvelous idea, Carol. Of course most folks will reject it >> because they don't want to go through the trouble or their stallions wouldn't >> make it. > >Further to my earlier message on this subject, I wanted to clarify that I >think it is a good idea, but like someone mentioned, it would be >extraordinarily expensive (and difficult to just find the trainers and >riders who would be qualified enough to run the program) but at some point >down the road it may be cost effective. But first we have to create a market >for people who can get past the cute/fuzzy thing and consider a Fjord for >dressage/cutting/etc. > >Lori >
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This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) Hello from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - Before people start arguing, let me restate the point of my posting - I said that according to B.J. van Bon, Chief Inspector of Fjords for Holland, today's Fjord breeding stallions don't have the qualities of strength; ie, (physical strength, endurance, longevity, thriftiness) that the older stallions had. He's mentioned this concern to me several times over the last few years, but it was only in a recent conversation I fully understood his meaning and the implications. What he was saying was that the Norwegian Fjord Horse has a heritage of immense strength in the above mentioned areas - Muscle Power, Endurance, Thriftiness (able to live long, productive, hard-working lives with minimal care and food.) Not that we should deprive our horses, but that we should take care not to lose these inherent strengths through our methods of horsekeeping and usage. He was saying that in the old days in Norway, the breeding stallions were used by the farmers in very rough terrain and conditions. If the stallion didn't stand up, he wasn't used for breeding. Van Bon called that "Natural Selection of Stallions". I asked him that IF FJORDS WERE SPORT HORSES, wouldn't that (the rigors of training and competiton) be an equally good method of slecting stallions and maintaining these qualities of strength in the breed? He agreed it would. The reason he zeroed in on the stallions is that STALLIONS HAVE THE MOST INFLUENCE ON THE BREED. --- IMPORTANT POINT: Stallions have the most influence "ONLY IF" good breeding practices are in effect. By that I mean, STRICT SELECTION OF STALLIONS, gelding all those not worthy. And to do that, there has to be a system that weeds out the weak ones. I agree that the American Evaluation system is important, but it's not everything. Could we not have something more, like the 100 Day Testing? The Evaluation defines the conformation and movement of the horse, and his training, but tells little about the endurance of the horse. The 100 Day Testing (or some such system) does that. It's good advice to say that owners should get their horses out and compete them, thereby proving the stallion and generating interest in Fjords as sport horses. I agree. However, shouldn't we think about a system that would weed out undesirable stallions BEFORE they spend years breeding? Some say such a system is prohibitively expensive - WHY WOULD A "100 DAY TESTING" need to be that expensive? Let's make it 90 Days. That's three months at a Training Barn. Don't you think it might be possible to set up a system whereby an experienced, reputatable trainer (approved by a system we'd set up) might take on six Fjord stallions at a time at a monthly rate of, say $1000 per month per horse? That's a lot of money, I know, but wouldn't it be worth it for a good stallion? A stallion that can earn $1,000 stud fee? A stallion that, as an Approved Stallion having done the 100 Days might attract ten mares ($10,000) the next season? And $1,000 per horse per month is an attractive fee for the trainer justifying, I'd think, a vigorous work-out twice a day, which would tell a tremdous amount about the horse. Obviously, this investment wouldn't be worthwhile for every stallion breeding today, but that's the point. It WOULD be worthwhile for the good ones. Training Centers that meet certain criteria could be approved around the country giving each stallion a level playing field. I don't see that this is prohibitively expensive for serious breeders. STRICTLY OPTIONAL: In any case, it would be strictly optional, leaving the free marketplace to prove its value. In 100 days (or 90 days) of rigorous training, it would become apparent which stallions had what it takes to stay sound in mind and body, and those are the ones we need to carry on the tradition of the Fjordhorse. Karen questioned why mares don't go through the same process. The reason is that ideally it's the stallions who have the most influence on a breed, seeing that mares have one foal a year, and stallions several. However, that depends on what standards a breed has for its stalions. I once went to a Morgan breeding conference where they said the average Morgan stallion bred 1.2 mares per year. -- Obviously, as regards influence on the breed, there's not much difference between Morgan mares and stallions. --- That's not the tradition of Fjordhorses. The breed is traditionally improved through the stallions. I think we've got to guard against this sort of thing. At last count, there were 81 breeding farms listed in the Fjord Herald. I would hazard a guess that there are at least 200 stallions (reg. & unregistered) breeding in the U.S. All
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This message is from: Don & Jane Brackett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> As regards the "toughness" missing in today's horse that Carol mentioned, I do worry about this. And this is not just a problem with fjordhorses, but almost every horse on the face of the earth, 100 Day Tested or not. Interesting article on this subject in either Equus or The Horse (Jan issues, I was at the library reading so can't remember which). The article was refering to racing horses in particular and the author felt that horses were weaker today due to undue "babying". Perfect footing on tracks etc, protecting the horses too much and not allowing flaws to show up until too late, and breeding for $ only. Certainly you have only to look at any horse catalog to see the most amazing assortment of supplements, blankets, pads, special shoes etc. to realize that there are a lot of unsound, and weak horses out there. Wonder how many of these are bred? Jane waiting for the parade to start to maybe get a glimpse of the girls riding the Fjords sidesaddle (do I remember this correctly?)
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This message is from: "Karen McCarthy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think that's marvelous idea, Carol. Of course most folks will reject it because they don't want to go through the trouble or their stallions wouldn't make it. Brigid, Please do a little more research on the NFHR Evaluation program vs. a 100 Day Testing program before making a statement like the one above, in that the reason we don't participate in a 100 Day Testing is the because of the fear of rejection, or we really just don't give a s---. Upon better research on your end, I think you might see that the 100 Day Testing is very impractical, not to mention severly expensive. It would cost far more than the market value of a stallion to put him thru something like this. Would you re-coup it in breedings? Perhaps, if you wanted to spend the rest of your life promoting him, maybe you could make up for the $$$ spent in the testing. And for why? To tell everyone thet your horse has been ridden by a competent set of (strange) riders, thousands of miles away from your farm and tested over a 100 day time period? What about a good mare? There are currently (to my knowledge)no mares that have gone thru a program like this. Why not? In the end, it really comes down to you and the horse, and how YOU are going to use him/her. Why not put some serious time and money into him/her YOURself, or with a trainer, compete him/her at open shows and then thru an Evaluation, or Keuring. This is much more realistic and attainable. Besides, I don't think that some of those riders they use in the 100 Day Testings would be overjoyed to be assigned a [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lets think about the many fjord horses out there who have proven themselves many times over... ...Would Gayle Ware's Dusty have gained anything by going thru a 100 day Test? ...Anne Appelbey's Misha? ...Brian & Ursula Jensen's Sambar? ...Chip Lamb's Rusten? ...I can go on and on No, these and many other fjords have proven themselves by virtue of performance over and over again, and most are still continuing to do so. Karen McCarthy Great Basin Fjords Carson City, NV _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
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This message is from: Lori Albrough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > << What do you think? >> > > I think that's marvelous idea, Carol. Of course most folks will reject it > because they don't want to go through the trouble or their stallions wouldn't > make it. Further to my earlier message on this subject, I wanted to clarify that I think it is a good idea, but like someone mentioned, it would be extraordinarily expensive (and difficult to just find the trainers and riders who would be qualified enough to run the program) but at some point down the road it may be cost effective. But first we have to create a market for people who can get past the cute/fuzzy thing and consider a Fjord for dressage/cutting/etc. Lori
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This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 1/19/01 12:57:49 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << What do you think? >> I think that's marvelous idea, Carol. Of course most folks will reject it because they don't want to go through the trouble or their stallions wouldn't make it. But you're absolutely right. Fjords have a reputation among the uninitiated as PETS, and frankly it's starting to annoy me! Just yesterday two visitors (QH owners) to our boarding ranch were watching me ride Tommes bareback, doing clicker riding exercises. When I left the arena they said, "He's cute, fuzzy, how cute!" and other such comments. They never said "How AMAZING you can ride this horse bareback, walk-trot-and whoa on verbal cue only, in a halter in front of two strange horses," etc. They, like others, didn't ask me what events we do or plan to do. This image has to change right now. Brigid Wasson San Francisco Bay Area, CA http://members.nbci.com/mrgnpetsit/fjord1";>Our Fjords
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This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 1/19/01 10:29:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Time to make up a new bumper sticker: KEEP THE FJORDHORSE WORKING! > (I am sure someone out there can be inspired to a better way of saying > this!) > I'll tell you who inspires me. LISA. When I visited Norco a year and a half ago, before her move, I was impressed and amazed at her work ethic. Her horses were worked and extremely fit. I came home with the plan of working my ponies a bit more, but it sort of fizzled. This year I became a bit more consistent. Our outdoor arena isn't top grade yet, but it's alright. And the horses are getting a lot more work than last winter (which was zero). I'm also trailering to indoor arenas for lessons. Someday soon I hope to have my horses as fit as Lisa's. And trail rides are definitely in the picture this year. We've got a great local asset, the Flying M Ranch. The AQHA has the odd organized ride there, and every summer there are the poker rides that benefit the local handicapped riding programs. Now I'm training at the barn that benefits this program and Juniper has been enlisted! Should be fun. Flying M has some of the most beautiful land on the face of the earth! Pamela
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This message is from: "Karen McCarthy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I think the best way (at this stage) to develop the Fjordhorse for >sport is not through 'push' (ie requiring a 100 day test etc) but >through 'pull' ... get out there and develop your Fjord's abilities... >this will result in a marketplace of people who have seen what the >Fjordhorse is capable of. From here will come the pull that will >emphasize athleticism in breeding. Lori Albrough Moorefield Ontario Very well said, Lori! I would like add that the type of testing Carol is talking about is VERY expensive indeed. I think it too impractical to consider. With the NFHR Evaluation program standing on its own (four?) feet now,I think that the focus of rewarding good looking, versatile and mannered fjord horse will only produce better horses. As regards the "toughness" missing in today's horse that Carol mentioned, I do worry about this. And this is not just a problem with fjordhorses, but almost every horse on the face of the earth, 100 Day Tested or not. ( I do think the little hinny mules that I rode 2 months ago in Baja can be excepted!) We need to realise that we just do not use our horses today as much as in the past. They are pets, not beasts to be turned out on the tundra to fend for themselves when we are done with them in the winter, after a season of hard work. The fjordhorse is a cute teddy-bear of a horse, but it is working breed, and it is our responsibility as owners and breeders, to ensure that we are not producing lawn ornaments, for the sake of lawn ornamentation. Time to make up a new bumper sticker: KEEP THE FJORDHORSE WORKING! (I am sure someone out there can be inspired to a better way of saying this!) Karen McCarthy Great Basin Fjords Carson City, NV _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
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This message is from: Lori Albrough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Arthur Rivoire wrote: > Maybe it's time for the Evaluation Committee and the NFHR to seriously > discuss 100 Day Testing for Fjord stallions, and requiring them to perform > in sporting events such as dressage, cutting, combined driving. ... > What do you think? Interesting question. I think the best way (at this stage) to develop the Fjordhorse for sport is not through 'push' (ie requiring a 100 day test etc) but through 'pull' ... by which I mean, get out there and develop your Fjord's abilities, show him in dressage, show him in Combined Driving, show him in other athletic pursuits, and show the world what the Fjordhorse can do! This will result in a marketplace of people who have seen what the Fjordhorse is capable of in sport and will WANT ONE that can do the same. From here will come the pull that will emphasize athleticism in breeding. Lori Albrough Moorefield Ontario
Re: Natural Selection of Stallions -
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) Hello from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - I was on the phone today with Bob van Bon, Chief Inspector of Fjords in Holland. When we finished our business, he asked about our old stallion, Gjest who is now 24. I told him Gjest is very healthy, but showing his age in the condition of his teeth, and the drop in his back. Next, Bob asked about his fertility. I said he'd had no problem covering any of the mares we bred him to last season, that they'd all gotten in foal in one cycle. (outside mares as we didn't breed any of our own last season.) Then Bob said something he's said to me many times in the past few years. He said, "WE CAN'T FIND STRONG STALLIONS LIKE GJEST ANYMORE. THERE ARE NO MORE." Arthur was on the extension, and asked Bob why this old type had disappeared, and Bob answered - "Because there is NO MORE NATURAL SELECTION". And then he went on to explain. . . . He said that in the old days, throughout the history of the Fjord in Norway, the stallions had been PROVEN THROUGH WORK. Those stallions worked for the mountain farmers and lived extremely rigorous lives in spartan conditions with poor food (dried cod), and little in the way of vet care and maintenance . . .and the ones who couldn't take it were butchered. Today, Bob said, there is no more work for the stallions, and they do nothing but stand in a meadow and breed. He feels this has weakened the Fjord breed. Then it occured to me that if Fjordhorses were "Sport Horses", that would be a kind of natural selection. The weak ones, not able to do the job, would be put aside and not used for breeding. I said this to Bob, and he agreed that yes, IF FJORDS WERE SPORT HORSES, their strengths and weaknesses would show up, and the strong stallions would be selected in that manner. Warmblood horses are Sport Horses. That's their function. There's not much danger that weakness would persist in those breeds as they'd not be able to fulfill their ordained function. No Warmblood stallion is going to become popular because he's cute and fuzzy and friendly, or looks snappy in the show ring, or has a personable owner. He has to perform, or he's Gravy Train to put it crudely and bluntly. A Warmblood gelding that can't perform is not much use either. Warmbloods are not pets! However, Fjords are pets, which is not a bad thing AS LONG AS THEY ARE ATHLETES AS WELL. I hope to God that the pet quality never is allowed to take precedence over the athletic qualities. Van Bon is saying that the breed has gotten softer because of what he calls "natural selection", meaning a proving ground for the stallions of arduous, long-term work. A program that proves their strength, stamina, abilities, and longevity. Well, that situation of working the stallions in the mountains no longer exists, and it can't be replicated. So, what are we going to use to replace it that can work in the New World? The Warmbloods start off with their 100 Day Testing which gives judges a good idea if the stallion has what it takes. After that, the approved stallion is expected to perform in tough competition, and there he shows if he's a winner or not. --- This is true of all performance horses - dressage horses, jumpers, racers. We don't have anything at all like it in the Fjord breed. What do you think will be the long-term consequences? When someone with the knowledge of Bob van Bon says he's worried that the breed is becoming soft, we should listen. When he says he cannot find any more "strong" stallions such as Gjest, we should begin to be concerned. Maybe it's time for the Evaluation Committee and the NFHR to seriously discuss 100 Day Testing for Fjord stallions, and requiring them to perform in sporting events such as dressage, cutting, combined driving. Make the testing sufficiently tough so that only the strong stallions survive. The use of the Fjordhorse has changed. It's now more recreational (sport) than farm work, and sport can be as tough or tougher on horses than farm work, and as good a proving ground. What do you think? Best Regards, Carol Rivoire Carol and Arthur Rivoire Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II R.R. 7 Pomquet Antigonish County Nova Scotia B2G 2L4 902 386 2304 http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/beaverdf
