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This message is from: fjords [EMAIL PROTECTED] A lady is trotting down the road in her horse and buggy when she is pulled over by a cop. Ma'am, I'm not going to ticket you, but I do have to issue you a warning. You have a broken reflector on your buggy. Oh, I'll let my husband, Jacob, know as soon as I get home. That's fine. Another thing, ma'am. I don't like the way that one rein loops across the horse's back and around one of his testicles. I consider that animal abuse. That's cruelty to animals. Have your husband take care of that right away! Later that day, the lady is at home telling her husband about her encounter with the cop. Well, dear, what exactly did he say? He said the reflector is broken. I can fix that in two minutes. What else? I'm not sure, Jacob. Something about the emergency brake.
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This message is from: Sanders [EMAIL PROTECTED] I support PLAN #1 But (and its a big one) here are my thoughts on #2: (#2 PLAN) - All stallions must have vet certification for teeth testicles or their offspring cannot be registered. When I bought my rare breed (in America anyway) Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, the Cavalier registry had two classifications for the puppies: Pet or Breed Pet Quality - Registered as such and can NOT be bred. Most reputable breeders will have you sign an agreement. They are also cheaper to buy. You can own the breed you love without the high cost. The offspring of this animal are not registerable. Yes, puppy mills bred them anyway, and a renegade group broke off the main group because they wanted to breed their cheaply bought PET quality bitches. But in the dog world there is only one recognizable registry for the breed...the one with standards. Breed Quality - Offspring was fully registerable. It was based on the honor system quite a bit, just as we are in the fjord world. Cost is higher than a pet quality. I have seen some glaringly apparent faults that degrade the quality of the fjord as a breed and should act as warning flags to those who love the fjord breed. For example: *When someone has a whole team of white faced (okay, lines down the face) brown dun fjords, they are obviously breeding a bad combination of mare and stallion. *When a judge places a horse with a white blaze as the best representation of a fjord weanling, going against Norwegian Standards, than I believe it is time to start taking our confirmation standards seriously. Other faults, less visible, aren't apparent to non-fjord or new fjord people. But the degradation of that line has started and will continue into future generations if unknowingly people are breeding bad combinations just because they lack the knowledge or experience to make an informed decision on a stallion. Many people scrimp and save to acquire their first (2nd, 3rd, etc.) fjord. At my house, 5 to 10 thousand dollars means the difference between collage tuition loans, cars that run and vacations to places that don't start with the phrase, Dear Aunt and Uncle... I am thankful I have an honest and knowledgeable mentor to guide me through all these hogwash so I don't have to hear ...well, it shouldn't be there...but.two would be preferable...aw shucksyou paid for it, do what you would like. Teresa Sanders Sandpoint, Id
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This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 12:01 AM 2/3/01 -0500, you wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I show Miniature Horses, and the AMHA requires a veterinary certificate that states the mature stallion has two descended testicles before we are allowed to show that stallion in any sanctioned show. The Judges at the shows are required to check the bite of every mare and stallion in the conformation classes. The NFHR does not have sanctioned shows. The NFHR doesn't have any shows at all. The shows are all put on by the promotional groups. There has been talk of a National show but to date there isn't any NFHR sanctioned shows. === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 10:58 PM 2/2/01 -0500, you wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] These are some of my thoughts on the matter: IF a person wants to just own a wonderful fjord, then they don't need to go to the added costs of evaluations, unless they want to of course. However, I feel if a person is going to be a responsible breeder, then they better have the financial ability and willingness to have that perspective stallion evaluated, by either a NFHR evaluator, OR an approved evaluator from another country, (say in the case of someone buying and importing a stallion, I think we should honor that countries evaluation of the horse) I am not so sure we should honor the Evaluations from another country actually. Can anyone think of another country that does? For instance when a stallion is bought by the Netherlands from Norway. DO they use the Norwegian scores? NO they send him through their own Evaluation. I have never seen pedigrees from any other countries that list premiums from other than their own country. I think we are the only registry that does this. Someone please correct me if I am wrong here. The NFHR, I feel, should make these evaluations as affordable and economical to travel too, so owners in all parts of the USA could participate, this would probably require a few more evaluators than we have now. This is being done right now. We have I think 10 dedicated people in an Evaluator training program right now. In the case of owning a stallion, I think an evaluation would tell us more than a vet certificate and also have less chance of dishonesty in any part. Yes it certainly would. There is no comparison at all. Just my Humble opinion, from someone who is still learning about conformation, and having a stallion be evaluated,would make me feel better about picking him for my mares Then that is what you should do. There ARE stallions that have been evaluated. If you want to know for sure you should ask to see their scores before booking your breeding. It should make you ask why if you find a stallion that isn't evaluated. There may be good reason by the way. It could be a young stallion that hasn't had the opportunity yet or it could be one in say Florida that has been left out so far due to distance to the Evaluations so far. We are trying to fix these problems now. Up until this year there has never been more than 2 evaluations in a single year. This year we have 4 scheduled. === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] part of Carole's posting stated the following, and because this is a very opinionated and argued topic on the list... I wanted to add just a few comments. DO WHAT? Require that every stallion registered have his teeth examined for proper bite and testicles examined to verify there are two of them dropped. I show Miniature Horses, and the AMHA requires a veterinary certificate that states the mature stallion has two descended testicles before we are allowed to show that stallion in any sanctioned show. The Judges at the shows are required to check the bite of every mare and stallion in the conformation classes. IF OWNERS DON'T COMPLY? Then that stallion's foals are not registerable. they do not go so far as to do this. BUT you are not allowed to show unless you supply the veterinary statement to the show secretary. And if the horse's bite is off, you are penalized and supposedly placed differently in the show classes. Word gets around if you have a horse with a fault such as a bad bite. DO OTHER AMERICAN REGISTRIES DO THIS? No, most don't Like I said, AMHA requires the testicles statement. Both AMHR and AMHA judges check teeth in the conformation classes and there is definition of a good bite in the Rules and Regulations for the shows, and I believe also in the Breed Standards Lou Check out our website A HREF=http://hometown.aol.com/dbldayfarm/index.html;DoubleDay Farm - Paint Miniature Horses/A
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This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mike I'm so glad you responded, Sometimes someone has a good idea but it gets too complicated for us simple folks. You helped bring out some new ideas. These are some of my thoughts on the matter: IF a person wants to just own a wonderful fjord, then they don't need to go to the added costs of evaluations, unless they want to of course. However, I feel if a person is going to be a responsible breeder, then they better have the financial ability and willingness to have that perspective stallion evaluated, by either a NFHR evaluator, OR an approved evaluator from another country, (say in the case of someone buying and importing a stallion, I think we should honor that countries evaluation of the horse) The NFHR, I feel, should make these evaluations as affordable and economical to travel too, so owners in all parts of the USA could participate, this would probably require a few more evaluators than we have now. In the case of owning a stallion, I think an evaluation would tell us more than a vet certificate and also have less chance of dishonesty in any part. Just my Humble opinion, from someone who is still learning about conformation, and having a stallion be evaluated,would make me feel better about picking him for my mares Michele Noonan Stevensville, MT
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This message is from: Steve McIlree [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mike-- Friday, February 02, 2001, you wrote: What do you think about actually licensing stallions for breeding? Maybe it is time. I like the idea in theory. However, in practice I think it's a better idea to try to keep everyone under the same tent. We're just getting to the place where there is only one registry to deal with. Surely if something as restrictive as licensing stallions were attempted too soon, other more liberal stud books would be started, as well as more open cross-breeding. Down the road after everyone has become fully committed to voluntary evaluations, licensing of breeding stock might become feasible. -- Steve McIlree -- Pferd Skipper -- Omaha, Nebraska, USA Then we began to ride. My soul smoothed itself out, a long-cramped scroll freshening and fluttering in the wind. --Robert Browning(1812-1889)
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This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 2/2/01 11:14:32 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: All owners and breeders who understand the danger to future generations of Fjords by allowing monorchid stallions and stallions with bite problems to breed, I beg of you to PLEASE MAKE YOUR THOUGHTS KNOWN to board members. These people need your input. Also, PLEASE make your thoughts known on this List. Nobody enjoys standing You're not alone on this one Carol. This list seems equally divided on this subject. People who's opinions I've come to rely on as being good are on both sides of this fence. I understand this issue being brought up, more than cowhocked horses, etc. for several reasons. Well, maybe one. A cowhocked horse can still be quite functional and useful without being lame (past owner of a slightly cowhocked arab that did anything I asked!). The cryptorchid, as you said can be devastating for castrating. And the overbite, to me it seems like breeding something you KNOW is bad. And can make life difficult for the offspring. Why breed something like that when we have such wonderful bloodlines to choose from that have good teeth! BTW, I totally disagree with people who don't like seeing this type of discussion on the list. Respectfully disagree, but disagree. I don't come here for fun or fluff. I come here because there are people who care about the breed here. We may agree, disagree. Talk about the weather, or eagles. It's all part of our lives. And when it gets onto the testy subjects, sometimes these things need to be said. Not everybody who owns a fjord is a breeder, granted. But everybody who owns a fjord can be grateful to the breeders who have so carefully selected stallion and mare together to give THEM the horse of their dreams! Just my nickel. Pamela
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This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 03:01 PM 2/2/01 -0400, you wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) Hello from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - This is a Fjord issue. It's not about me. -- PLEASE think about the Fjords first, not about what's good or easy for people. Ok I have been trying to stay out of this but I feel compelled to respond to a few things here. First of all Carol don't get me wrong in anything I say here I do agree with you that this is important. These are both serious conformation defects. However I think we need to weigh all of the possibilities/problems a rule change such as this could produce before I can support it fully. THE ISSUE: Improper teeth and testicles are highly inherited. Agreed, but in order to inherit them they have to be present in the first place. THE PROBLEM: The NFHR needs to make more of an effort to curtail the these defects in the breed. If it is in fact a problem then I agree. HOW DO WE FIX THE PROBLEM? (#1 plan) -Require that every stallion have vet certification as to teeth testicles in order to be registered. HOW DO WE FIX THE PROBLEM? (#2 PLAN) - All stallions must have vet certification for teeth testicles or their offspring cannot be registered. Or we do what the Europeans do and REQUIRE all stallions to be licensed in order to breed. To be licensed they would have to be Evaluated and possibly Vet checked at the same time. If you really want to be particular then you would pull a hair sample at this time do a DNA test to make sure this is the correct stallion being presented too. You see here is one of the problems with the Vet Certificate. I hesitated to bring this one up before so as to not give any ideas to anyone with less than admirable intentions. Here is the question. - How well does the average Vet know your Fjords? Say you have 10 or 15 of them on your farm. Sure you know all of them but who else could identify all of them? So Mr (or Mrs) not so respectable breeder wants to get his/her stallion listed for breeding and registration but he has one testicle really bad teeth. So what can he do? Well he could bring out his other stallion and parade him around in front of the Vet and get the unknowing Vet to sign the form. Since all of these Fjords do look a lot alike I am sure this wouldn't be much of a problem. I know not that many people have more than one stallion but how about the mares? They are important too. QUESTION: Is the Fjord breed particularly prone to these defects? ANSWER:No more than any other breed. From what I have seen so far maybe less. QUESTION: Why the focus on these two issues (teeth testicles)? ANSWER:Because there's something the Registry can easily do about it. Not so sure it is all that easy. DO WHAT? Require that every stallion registered have his teeth examined for proper bite and testicles examined to verify there are two of them dropped. Again by who? Who knows if this is really the right stallion? If we are going to take the owners word for it why don't we just ask them if they have two testicles proper bite? IF OWNERS DON'T COMPLY? Then that stallion's foals are not registerable. DO OTHER AMERICAN REGISTRIES DO THIS? No, most don't EUROPEAN REGISTRIES? Yes. Not only for the Fjord breed, but most other breeds as well. Not exactly. They require an Evaluation of them not a Vet out in the pasture looking at who knows what. Maybe it is time to require all stallions to be Evaluated like they do. WHY NOT ASK FOR HOCKS, NECKS, OTHER PARTS BE VET CERTIFIED? Because, you'd get subjective answers from a vet. Most vets are not qualified to judge conformation, unless a specialized equine sport vet. But the Evaluators are. BUT TEETH TESTICLES? The vet only has to verify that the stallion has two testicles and that his teeth line up. He's not certifying the size of the testicles or quality of the teeth. It's not a subjective judgement. WON'T IT MAKE MORE PAPERWORK FOR REGISTRY? Maybe, but not much. But, who cares? What's important is that the Registry does what's best for the breed. I do if it is going to useless paper. If it is going to make a difference I am all for it. I agree that the Registry has to do what is best for the breed. I am just not convinced that this is it. WHY ALL THE EMPHASIS ON THIS ISSUE? Because it's vitally important. Why woulnd't we do what's possible to eliminate problems for future generations? WHY SHOULD NFHR REQUIRE THIS?
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This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) Hello from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - This is a Fjord issue. It's not about me. -- PLEASE think about the Fjords first, not about what's good or easy for people. THE ISSUE: Improper teeth and testicles are highly inherited. THE PROBLEM: The NFHR needs to make more of an effort to curtail the these defects in the breed. HOW DO WE FIX THE PROBLEM? (#1 plan) -Require that every stallion have vet certification as to teeth testicles in order to be registered. HOW DO WE FIX THE PROBLEM? (#2 PLAN) - All stallions must have vet certification for teeth testicles or their offspring cannot be registered. QUESTION: Is the Fjord breed particularly prone to these defects? ANSWER:No more than any other breed. QUESTION: Why the focus on these two issues (teeth testicles)? ANSWER:Because there's something the Registry can easily do about it. DO WHAT? Require that every stallion registered have his teeth examined for proper bite and testicles examined to verify there are two of them dropped. IF OWNERS DON'T COMPLY? Then that stallion's foals are not registerable. DO OTHER AMERICAN REGISTRIES DO THIS? No, most don't EUROPEAN REGISTRIES? Yes. Not only for the Fjord breed, but most other breeds as well. WHY NOT ASK FOR HOCKS, NECKS, OTHER PARTS BE VET CERTIFIED? Because, you'd get subjective answers from a vet. Most vets are not qualified to judge conformation, unless a specialized equine sport vet. BUT TEETH TESTICLES? The vet only has to verify that the stallion has two testicles and that his teeth line up. He's not certifying the size of the testicles or quality of the teeth. It's not a subjective judgement. WON'T IT MAKE MORE PAPERWORK FOR REGISTRY? Maybe, but not much. But, who cares? What's important is that the Registry does what's best for the breed. WHY ALL THE EMPHASIS ON THIS ISSUE? Because it's vitally important. Why woulnd't we do what's possible to eliminate problems for future generations? WHY SHOULD NFHR REQUIRE THIS? It's immoral to do any less. And, as Julie Will said, Can the NFHR be taken seriously by the Global Fjord Horse community if there are breeding stallion here that have not passed even this simple exam? - Julie is a top Fjord breeder and past Vice President of the NFHR When judging a stallion, you look first at the testicles, and then the teeth, because if those items aren't correct, NOTHING ELSE MATTERS! PLEASE PLEASE KEEP THIS IN MIND: Keep the Fjord #1 People issues come second. This issue will be discussed at the next NFHR board meeting. YOU CAN HELP THEM DO THE RIGHT THING FOR THE BREED - All owners and breeders who understand the danger to future generations of Fjords by allowing monorchid stallions and stallions with bite problems to breed, I beg of you to PLEASE MAKE YOUR THOUGHTS KNOWN to board members. These people need your input. Also, PLEASE make your thoughts known on this List. Nobody enjoys standing alone. Board President -Dennis Johnson - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Board Vice President Fred Brandt - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Board Secretary Catherine Lassessen - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Directors:Keith Brighten - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sue Giargiari - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tom Hans - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Alan Merrill - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jane Sawyer- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lindsay Sweeney- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sincerely, Carol Rivoire Carol and Arthur Rivoire Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II R.R. 7 Pomquet Antigonish County Nova Scotia B2G 2L4 902 386 2304 http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/beaverdf
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This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 03:32 PM 1/28/01 -0400, you wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) Many of these premiums are already listed on NFHR pedigrees. I am afraid that for most of these horses all the info I have is what you see on the web site. Think about it. When you send me a Registration Application for an imported horse you usually send along a copy of (parts) of the horses Passport. The Passport doesn't have any scores in it. At best it usually has a stamp with the premium(s) awarded. Sometimes I don't even get that page of the passport. Betsy Patryjak - I think you have a wonderful idea - A pamphlet with tips on 'How to Buy a Fjord'. That could be very useful to people. I'd be willing to work with a group getting such a thing together. It's a worthwhile project that the registry, no doubt, would be interested in fiancing. The wheels have already been set in motion Carol. Betsy has a wonderful idea there. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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This message is from: truman matz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Over the years, we have owned several different breeds of registered horses, and the only registry that had promotional materials to encourage the purchase of that particular breed was the American Bashkir Curly. They were a new registry, and they were trying to preserve the breed which was becoming extinct. The burden of promotional materials for selling their horses of other breeds fell on the breeders, themselves. If several of the Fjord owners got together, I'm sure you could come up with all the information you would need to create a pamphlet for this purpose. I know that Carol knows how to get them published, because I have a couple of her own lovely pamphlets. If all of the breeders chipped in (for the quantity they would like for themselves), they could be massed produced probably fairly inexpensively. The How To Buy A Fjord pamphlet might be just a tad larger, to say the least. You might also question prospective buyers as to what information they would like to know before purchasing their first Fjord. It would be a great projesct. Go for it, and good luck. Judy ~~~ Betsy Patryjak - I think you have a wonderful idea - A pamphlet with tips on 'How to Buy a Fjord'. That could be very useful to people. I'd be willing to work with a group getting such a thing together. It's a worthwhile project that the registry, no doubt, would be interested in fiancing. Best Regards, Carol Rivoire Carol and Arthur Rivoire Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II R.R. 7 Pomquet Antigonish County Nova Scotia B2G 2L4 902 386 2304 http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/beaverdf
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This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) Goodd Morning from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - Brian, In 21 years breeding Fjords (62 foals), training Fjords (all), importing Fjords (88) selling Fjords (300+), nobody has ever said that I put people before horses. --- Our barn staff can tell you that my favorite theme is . . . WHAT'S EASY FOR YOU IS ALMOST ALWAYS NOT GOOD FOR THE HORSES. For instance - A heated barn is good for people, not good for horses. Feeding twice a day is convenient for people - not good for horses. Selling mediocre colts as breeding prospects is good for the owner - not good for the breed. Linda Bailey - I sincerely apologise for not getting back to you regarding your idea for a book. Sometimes when receiving a detailed letter or email, I put it aside with the intention of answering later when I'll have more time and can answer fully. I'm afraid yours must have been put aside and then buried on my desk. Please accept my apologies. I think your idea has merit, but is a huge project, and remember thinking so at the time which is why I put it aside to answer later. I agree it would be ridiculous to expect the Registry to publish what you have in mind. But, what I had in mind - certification premiums on imported horses - isn't as extensive, and think it would be a good idea for the registry to make that information available in some form -- on the website, for instance. Many of these premiums are already listed on NFHR pedigrees. As to taking our horses to an American Evaluation - I'd seriously consider it if one were held anywhere near us, and . . . (I hesitate to say this). . . if I approved of the evaluator. I've watched Wayne Hipsley judge and think I'd be comfortable with him. And, of course, I'd have complete faith in any of the approved Norwegian, Dutch or German judges. All our horses are not imports. We've got home-breds that need to be evaluated, and would welcome the opportunity. ~~~ Betsy Patryjak - I think you have a wonderful idea - A pamphlet with tips on 'How to Buy a Fjord'. That could be very useful to people. I'd be willing to work with a group getting such a thing together. It's a worthwhile project that the registry, no doubt, would be interested in fiancing. Best Regards, Carol Rivoire Carol and Arthur Rivoire Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II R.R. 7 Pomquet Antigonish County Nova Scotia B2G 2L4 902 386 2304 http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/beaverdf
