Re: Engar
This message is from: jgayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Strangely my old boy, Charley, (24) has improved and no more runny poop! I put him back on alfalfa and all of his additives and he is clear Go figure. I did it out of complete confusion and trying different solutions. Guess he reacted to all the different efforts. Just another $1000 Vet bill again!!! Thanks for all the help and hopefully this will last. Hope that horrible storm in Florida and the coast is clearing and everyone made it through. Jean Gayle Author The Colonel's Daughter Occupied Germany 46-49 Send $20 to: PO Box 104 Montesano, WA 98563
Re: Engar/Fjord body width
This message is from: Warren Stockwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I was surprised to hear that any Fjord could be ridden in a medium tree saddle Hi Amy: I think the thing here is that there are SO many different saddle makers out there, and so many different types of saddles and trees, that what might be considered a medium width tree for one manufacturer, might be a wide, or extra wide for another. Individual perception is another part of the equation - what I may refer to as a medium tree, might be what you'd call a wide tree. This is a really good point!! I had a experience buying a wide tree AP saddle and I gotta tell ya when I got it home and measured it was more narrow than my Full QH western! and it by no means fit anything on my farm. The thing that really bugged me was that the seller wouldn't take it back and said that all manufactures label their saddles different. After doing some research into English saddles I found this to be true. So you really need to know your saddle makers before you go buying. I admit I don't know much about English gear so my lack of knowledge got me ( I guess) what I deserved. Now that my daughter and horse have chosen to go hunt seat I guess I better brush up. By the way are Kimber wick bits legal in shows? Here I am lost again : (( I guess I will be starting over I AM TO OLD FOR THIS!! Roberta
Re: Engar/Fjord body width
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 8/31/2004 11:51:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I was surprised to hear that any Fjord could be ridden in a medium tree saddle Hi Amy: I think the thing here is that there are SO many different saddle makers out there, and so many different types of saddles and trees, that what might be considered a medium width tree for one manufacturer, might be a wide, or extra wide for another. Individual perception is another part of the equation - what I may refer to as a medium tree, might be what you'd call a wide tree. When I bought my Keiffer saddle, I ordered what was then their medium tree. It was the size recommended for Warmbloods or QHs. It fits my Fjords wonderfully, just as it did my QH Paints. My western saddle was custom made by my dad on a tree with what is called Modified QH bars for my Paint stallion. This tree is not quite as wide as the old Full QH Bars saddles, but is wider than a standard off-the-rack factory saddle. This also fits our Fjords wonderfully. But, we do try to keep our Fjords from getting too over weight as well. If they were 200 lbs overweight, the saddles might not fit so well. ??? Amy Amy Evers Dun Lookin' Fjords Redmond, OR Fjord [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Engar/Fjord body width
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Amy, Hard question to answer, as there are different types of Fjords. Just like with other breeds, some will be small, tall, wide, thinnerI do not think Fjords can be classified to be more prone to one saddle size versus another. Lynda In a message dated 8/31/2004 2:51:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think maybe I didn't ask my question very clearly. I was just wondering if it's common for a Fjord that is otherwise wide through the body to be ridden in a medium tree saddle (as opposed to medium-wide, wide or extra wide), because that would help me gauge the size of horses for sale.
Re: Engar/Fjord body width
This message is from: Amy Goodloe [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 11:54 PM -0400 8/30/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Isn't there a breeder or two in your area that you could go visit? This might answer all of your questions at once! I've been to see Beth Beymer's Fjords and got to take a lesson on BDF Magnum, who is a perfect size for me and a lot of fun to ride. My Wintec Isabell with a wide tree fit him nicely. But he's not for sale! Seeing Beth's Fjords was educational in many ways and I appreciate the information she shared with me, but that doesn't help me determine if a Fjord for sale elsewhere will be wide enough for me. I think maybe I didn't ask my question very clearly. I was just wondering if it's common for a Fjord that is otherwise wide through the body to be ridden in a medium tree saddle (as opposed to medium-wide, wide or extra wide), because that would help me gauge the size of horses for sale. I was surprised to hear that any Fjord could be ridden in a medium tree saddle and wondered if there was something about their back shape that I was missing, but maybe it's only the more modern types that are that narrow. That's the impression I'm getting from some private conversations on this topic, which makes me all the more sure that I need to look specifically for the more drafty type. --Amy
Re: Engar - evaluations - long
This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 11:12 PM 8/30/2004, you wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Mike, Do you think that if the NFHR held only one evaluation a year, say smack in the middle of the country that the amount of Fjords brought would be increased and therefore, more evaluators could attend? Sort of like one of the European evaluations? Lynda No I don't think so Lynda. That system seems to work on in countries where you can drive from one side to the other in a day. Some people drove over 18 hours to get to the one in La Crosse as it is. If we only had one - say in the middle of the country how many people could really travel that far? Sure the midwest would get there ok but what about the people from Maine, Florida, California, Montana, Vermont, the Carolinas etc? Talk about raising the price? Adding 3 or 4 extra days of travel to the formula makes it even worse than adding $30 per test as far as I am concerned. Transporting horses isn't cheap with todays fuel prices. === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Engar
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Amy, Isn't there a breeder or two in your area that you could go visit? This might answer all of your questions at once! Lynda In a message dated 8/30/2004 8:38:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That's why I don't worry about the horse's height but rather the width and shape of its back. My Haflinger mare is not even 13.3h but she's very wide and flat backed and I look and feel fine on her. I wouldn't mind having one just a bit taller than that, just so I don't feel quite so bad making the little horse carry my tall self up the trails, but I'm pretty comfortable with pony size.
Re: Engar
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Amy, No, he is not indicative of this. Lynda n a message dated 8/30/2004 7:47:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Could he maybe have an ulcer?
Re: Engar - evaluations - long
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Mike, Do you think that if the NFHR held only one evaluation a year, say smack in the middle of the country that the amount of Fjords brought would be increased and therefore, more evaluators could attend? Sort of like one of the European evaluations? Lynda In a message dated 8/30/2004 5:25:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I just was entering the expenses for the Lacrosse Evaluation so I decided to see what it would cost per test to add a third Evaluator. Lacrosse had 30 horses at the Evaluation there were a total of 51 tests entered by them. I averaged the 2 Evaluators expenses since one drove the other flew in it works out to about an additional $30 per test. That would make the tests $90 each instead of $60 each. That doesn't take into account the other fees for Insurance, stall photo etc that are also added on. I am not sure that people would be willing to pay that much.
Re: Engar
This message is from: jgayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks Amy for the suggestions. Vet just called and said the blood work shows all kinds of things I could not understand but I did get that he is terribly anemic!!! We are going to search for the cause and it well maybe ulcers or he has always had a cough. So it is back to the Lixitinic and his alfalfa, plus other things. Poor guy. Jean Gayle Author The Colonel's Daughter Occupied Germany 46-49 Send $20 to: PO Box 104 Montesano, WA 98563
Re: Engar - evaluations - long
This message is from: Ruth Bushnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] .I will speak from my own experience in the process of being approved as an Evaluator, along with a bit about some of the others here and there. Beth THAT was a very thorough account of your experience as an Evaluator applicant, informative and well thought... (almost camera ready for the Herald =)) thanks for taking the time to share your observations. Ruthie, nw mt
Re: Engar
This message is from: Amy Goodloe [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 12:15 PM -0700 8/30/04, jgayle wrote: He was raised on free choice alfalfa. He has in the last four months begun to show some watery discharge along with his soft but still formed dung (hardly used word anymore!) It is burning his skin. Could he maybe have an ulcer? Stomach acid can cause burning on the way out with humans, so maybe also with horses. I've heard you can give horses human antacids, like Tums or Tagemet (sp?) but I'm not sure of the dosage. It might be worth a try to see if it makes a difference, before you go to the trouble of scoping to look for ulcers. I remember reading recently that studies now show that far more horses have ulcers than we previously realized. It's not just a racehorse thing. --Amy
Re: Engar
This message is from: Jean Ernest [EMAIL PROTECTED] Not to over praise the qualities of Flax, but it has anti-inflamatory propertis as well as the calories from the oils, and the Phytonutrients help the immune system. Jean G. you ought to try some plus the Ration Plus on your old boy!.. Jean in Fairbanks, Alaska At 12:15 PM 8/30/2004 -0700, you wrote: This message is from: jgayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lynda and Jean E, my boy is 24 and was (is) losing weight and I had him on Allegra senior horse, Jean Ernest Fairbanks, Alaska mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Engar - evaluations - long
This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 11:58 AM 8/30/2004, you wrote: This message is from: starfirefarm [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Lynda and members of the list, I just was entering the expenses for the Lacrosse Evaluation so I decided to see what it would cost per test to add a third Evaluator. Lacrosse had 30 horses at the Evaluation there were a total of 51 tests entered by them. I averaged the 2 Evaluators expenses since one drove the other flew in it works out to about an additional $30 per test. That would make the tests $90 each instead of $60 each. That doesn't take into account the other fees for Insurance, stall photo etc that are also added on. I am not sure that people would be willing to pay that much. Mike Concerning having a panel of evaluators rather than the current two, this is mostly a financial issue. I believe it currently requires the participation of 28-30 horses in any evaluation to break even on the cost of holding the evaluation. Some venues cost more than others. Some evaluations lose money. Some make money and help defray the cost of the ones that lose money. In an ideal world, it would be great to have more than two judges. This might be a possibility in the future (and has been discussed as a future possibility) but is not ecnomically feasible at this time. Would you rather that the program die on the vine because we currently only have two evaluators, or would you rather see the program continue to grow and improve (with the possibility of more in the future?)
Re: Engar
This message is from: jgayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lynda and Jean E, my boy is 24 and was (is) losing weight and I had him on Allegra senior horse, Vit C (cough and always some white snot} Northwest supplement, occasionally Cough Free and Bioten for soft soles. Also eastern Wash, grass hay and then alfalfa once a day. He is fed three times a day. He was raised on free choice alfalfa. He has in the last four months begun to show some watery discharge along with his soft but still formed dung (hardly used word anymore!) It is burning his skin. He also gets shots of banamine or bute paste occasionally for hoof pain or when he has his sarcoid treatment, exxterra. (once a month). I have tried the old stop feeding alfalfa, stop the meds etc and no luck so far. Did try two doses of Probiotic for two days with some success but ran out. I wash the rear and goop it good with Vaseline which works for about two to three days to keep the skin from burning. He is so sensitive. The Vet is as curious as I am. Tested the stool and no worms. We are waiting for a blood sample result as his gums seem a bit pale and he has been aniemic ( should never try to spell that one) before. I understand there is a probio powder that I may end up giving him every day. The dilemma is how to keep weight on these old ones. Which I had the same problem Jean Gayle Author The Colonel's Daughter Occupied Germany 46-49 Send $20 to: PO Box 104 Montesano, WA 98563
Re: Engar - evaluations - long
This message is from: starfirefarm [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Lynda and members of the list, Lynda wrote: There is not much hearsay involved in my thoughts on our evaluation process. I have brought this up on the Fjords Issues board. My main concerns are the qualifications of the evaluators and to wonder how come we do not use a panel of evaluators versus only two. I am not inclined to think (hope this does not step too hard on anyone's toes) that Fjord breeders are good candidates to become evaluators. You did not differentiate between Sr. Evaluators (Wayne Hipsley, Karen Cabic, Jim Havelhurst) and Evaluators (Brian Jensen, Sharon Makurat, Karen Maas and myself.) I will speak from my own experience in the process of being approved as an Evaluator, along with a bit about some of the others here and there. In 1991 there were 5 Evaluators as I understand it. Wayne Hipsley, Karen Cabic, Jim Havelhurst, Mary Woolverton and Karen Maas. With only 4 evaluators available, the NFHR recognized the need to offer a program by which additional evaluators could be trained to become future evaluators. It was decided that there would be an initial session on Conformation and Movement (basically biomechanics) focusing on in hand work with classroom lecture (slides and video) as well as hands on judging of horses, with written tests. This first session was held here, in Colorado (remember the altitude headaches?) and was open to participants who were interested in becoming evaluators. It was conducted by Wayne Hipsley. The second session was held in Ohio (conducted by Wayne Hipsley) and focused on performance with an eye towards form to function. This session was opened to the general public and a number of NFHR members attended, as well as people who were still interested in pursuing the goal of becoming an evaluator. This was a classroom session conducted with video footage of the performance tests taken from previous evaluations. Evaluator trainees were required to take a written test regarding the presented material. The third session was held in Norway, in conjunction with the Stallion Show in Nordfjordeid. This session was also open to the general fjord population and a number of people attended who were there simply to learn more about fjord horses. The evaluator trainees judged the youngstock and the three year old stallions in the ring, then their results were discussed at the end of the day. 'These meetings were moderated by Jim Havelhurst and a Norwegian evaluator. Trainees were encouraged (challenged) to speak of their observations and to defend why they had placed the horses in their judging. The trainees, in order to be able to move forward in the training program, were required to pass tests along the way with a percentage of 80 or 90% (I don't remember exactly which right now.) In addition to participating in these three training sessions, the trainees are required to attend at least three evaluations, scoring the horses alongside the Sr. Evaluators. The Sr. Evaluators review the marks and behavior of the trainees and score the trainee at the end of the evaluation, providing a numerical score as well as written commentary (much like the score sheet you receive for your horse.) A trainee must receive at least three (more are preferable) satisfactory scores (again, 80% or above) from the Sr. Evaluators before they can be considered by the Evaluation Committe and the NFHR Board of Directors to become Evaluators. There is no time limit to reach this goal. It is the decision of the Board of Directors as to whether or not a person has proven their capability to become an Evaluator. Once a person has been approved to be an Evaluator, the work doesn't end there. Evaluators are encouraged to continue to hone their evaluation skills. That is the main reason why, even though I had already been notified that I was an approved evaluator, I decided to attend the Stallion Show and the International Judges Conference this year in Nordfjordeid. In answer to your concerns regarding breeders being evaluators, I'm not sure there are many people out there who would go to such great lengths who don't have the love of this breed in their hearts. The initial program started with several people who were judges of other breeds, but who balked at the expense and time required to continue in the process to see it to fruition. Regarding my own experience, I could work at 10 evaluations and still not recoup the expenses that I have incurred during this process, simply in travel and lodging alone. That doesn't include the time and revenue lost in being away from our business. I do it because I love the breed and have an interest in helping people recognize the good qualities in their stock, as well as where they might be able to improve. There are a number of evaluators in other countries who are breeders as well. I am assuming that your concern is that a breeder will only look favorably upon stock that
Re: Engar
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Jean, I have been researching all these suggestions tonight and wow, there is a bunch of information about flax seed! I NEVER would have thought about it, although it was on my list to research this winter due to its fiber. :) We really like the Buckeye blends and have been trying a new one this month with a Pennwoods supplement. We are seeing a bit of progress but I am still looking into this Ration Plus formula you have suggested, plus some of the other products others have suggested. Whatever works is what is important! We are also getting a VERY early fall, it looks like. The trees are starting to turn and it has been really cold here for August. Thanks for your advice! Lynda In a message dated 8/30/2004 2:30:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You can actually safely feed up to a couple cups of ground flax daily, according to Dr. Beth Valentine on the Rural Heritage virtual vet, altho you probably won't want to feed that much. working up to a cup a day in a couple feedings. I use a coffee grinder to grind it fresh, buy it at the Health food section of our local Grocery (Fred Meyer) You can get it at the feed store, but what I got there wasn't as clean and smelled strong (rancid?) I also eat it myself..It has a lot of good stuff in it! but I think the senior feed and Ration Plus digestive aid helped also.
Re: Engar
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Amy, You are welcome! :) You will find many breeders on this list, I am sure one will have the Fjord you are looking for! I know you have had a lot of questions about saddles and let me tell you, fitting a Fjord is not always an easy task! We went through about a million (it seemed) Western saddles and finally went to a wide tree Australian saddle. We are still debating whether we like this saddle or not. It works quite well but all the additional rigging gets a bit old! I am more the bareback type myself, for I have little patience with all the tack sometimes! I would strongly suggest to not eliminate a Fjord from your list due to saddle size until you are able to actually see the animal. Better yet, have close up pictures taken of the back, preferably with something to be used as a measure in the photo. Also, maybe a measurement of the back width might be helpful for you. As you tend to like the midline to right of midline Fjords, it is possible you would be dealing with a less pronounced wither, too, which needs to be taken into consideration when looking into a saddle fit. Some of these Fjords will also have a shorter back, in case you have not noticed this as of yet. Oh, and to give you an idea...my husband, Daniel, is 6'3 and he rides Engar who stands a tad over 14.1. They look great together! I know Jean Ernest knows TONS about tack, have you asked her by chance? Lynda In a message dated 8/30/2004 2:28:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thanks so much for posting Engar's story!
Re: Engar
This message is from: Amy Goodloe [EMAIL PROTECTED] I got quite a few private responses today about Engar asking to hear about him! So, here we go... Thanks so much for posting Engar's story! And what a story it is. I can't believe what poor shape he was in when you found him. Poor guy. He is so lucky to have you (and you him, from the sound of it!) I just don't understand what gets into people to make them neglect and mistreat their animals the way they do, even more so when the animal in question is, at heart, peaceful and just looking to get along. I can see why his foals have been so popular. And I hope his type continues to be preserved, both in terms of his shape/looks as well as his disposition. He sounds like the type I would really like and the type that originally drew me to Fjords. --Amy
Re: Engar
This message is from: Jean Ernest [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Lynda, You can actually safely feed up to a couple cups of ground flax daily, according to Dr. Beth Valentine on the Rural Heritage virtual vet, altho you probably won't want to feed that much. working up to a cup a day in a couple feedings. I use a coffee grinder to grind it fresh, buy it at the Health food section of our local Grocery (Fred Meyer) You can get it at the feed store, but what I got there wasn't as clean and smelled strong (rancid?) I also eat it myself..It has a lot of good stuff in it! but I think the senior feed and Ration Plus digestive aid helped also. Jean in Fairbanks, Alaska, where I got the last of my hay delivered today! Beautiful local brome! At 12:32 AM 8/30/2004 -0400, you wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Jean, Thanks for the input and yes, his teeth are checked regularly. It has been a struggle! We never thought of flax seed, we will look into your suggestions. Thanks again, Lynda In a message dated 8/29/2004 6:11:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I assume you have checked his teeth, etc. I suggest starting him on Equine Senior feed plus a digestive aid called Ration Plus, available in most equine catalogs (such as KV Vet). Also give him some Rice bran and fresh ground flax seed. Jean Ernest Fairbanks, Alaska mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Engar
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Jean, Thanks for the input and yes, his teeth are checked regularly. It has been a struggle! We never thought of flax seed, we will look into your suggestions. Thanks again, Lynda In a message dated 8/29/2004 6:11:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I assume you have checked his teeth, etc. I suggest starting him on Equine Senior feed plus a digestive aid called Ration Plus, available in most equine catalogs (such as KV Vet). Also give him some Rice bran and fresh ground flax seed.
Re: Engar
This message is from: Jean Ernest [EMAIL PROTECTED] lynda, I assume you have checked his teeth, etc. I suggest starting him on Equine Senior feed plus a digestive aid called Ration Plus, available in most equine catalogs (such as KV Vet). Also give him some Rice bran and fresh ground flax seed. My old Gelding, Bjarne (C23) was terribly thin a year ago last spring when he shed out, I was shocked to see his back bone and hip bones protruding. He didn't have much energy either. His teeth were OK,and he ate his hay, but my farrier suggested I start him on the Purina Equine Senior Feed. I also got some rice bran and added that plus Manna Pro's Calf Manna and flax. I was feeding about 2 lbs equine senior plus 1/4 lb Calf Manna, 1/2 lb rice bran and 1/2 cup ground flax plus the Ration Plus (3 squirts of the liquid) twice a day after I built up to those amounts. He was also getting the same amount of hay the others got. By the end of the summer he had gained probably 100 lbs and another 50 by this summer. He is maybe a bit too fat now, I have cut back on the senior feed to less than half for the summer, eliminated the rice bran and cut the ground flax in half. He still get the Ration Plus and the Joint supplement (forgot to mention that!) At 29 years old he is energetic and active and looks great! When these horses get older they do not absorb the nutrients from their feed as well. I hope this helps! It sure worked for old Bjarne, who BTW is the older type Fjord (Tor -C10- X Fluki -C8-) but the Unraus considered him general purpose rather than draft. Jean in Still very smoky Fairbanks, Alaska, only in the 50's today! Frost possible tonight! However, late this winter we started to have problems with his weight. We have tried everything, but he just is not keeping his weight like he should, so of course toning is losing ground. In all other respects he is still the same old Engar, but I cannot say we are not worried. Jean Ernest Fairbanks, Alaska mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Engar
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Beth, Hope all goes well at Libby! We have yet to be able to attend an evaluation simply because of either the distance involved or the timing. Unfortunately, we do a variety of things over here to supplement our farm so rarely are we able to take a week off. Summer and fall are especially busy for us. I do have concerns about the evaluation system and always have. Regardless, if it were not for Engar's hock injury, we would have done our best to have him evaluated long ago, but we also know there is no provision in our evaluation system for older Fjords that might have sustained injury through no fault of their own. I am not sure if you remember, but we did check into this a couple of years ago. Instead, we have been hoping to have his offspring evaluated, they certainly are popular enough with those who have purchased from us! We tried paying for conformation evaluations for foals sold, that has not worked...not sure what to do? Many of the buyers have the same problems with attending the evaluations. Distance and timing. For some money to travel that far is an issue. There is not much hearsay involved in my thoughts on our evaluation process. I have brought this up on the Fjords Issues board. My main concerns are the qualifications of the evaluators and to wonder how come we do not use a panel of evaluators versus only two. I am not inclined to think (hope this does not step too hard on anyone's toes) that Fjord breeders are good candidates to become evaluators. We actually thought of bringing Engar to an evaluation this year as with our downsizing and careful rejuggling of schedules, we thought we just MIGHT be able to pull this off. However, late this winter we started to have problems with his weight. We have tried everything, but he just is not keeping his weight like he should, so of course toning is losing ground. In all other respects he is still the same old Engar, but I cannot say we are not worried. Lynda Lynda, please don't judge the entire evaluation system because of one statement made by one evaluator to you, personally, on your farm. This is only one person's opinion (hence the reason for having at least two evaluators per event.) Perhaps you have concerns about other things that you have heard of regarding the evaluation of horses in our system, but have you ever attended an NFHR evaluation? In addition to making public comments about the horses to make the event a learning experience for everyone attending, the evaluators are available for discussion regarding specific issues or concerns that you might have regarding a particular horse that is present at that evaluation. I'm not telling you to bring your stallion to an evaluation. Goodness knows, it sounds like he's already worth his weight in gold (Gene Bauer knew a good horse) and has earned his keep without being evaluated, besides having a few physical issues that have come along with age and injury. #1, an evaluation is simply a good learning experience and, #2, it would be good to judge the process in person rather that relying on hearsay. Back to getting ready for Libby now.
Re: Engar
This message is from: starfirefarm [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'd like to respond to Lynda's statement about what was said to her about Engar's old type probably not doing well in today's evaluations. Patti Jo's stallion, Ole, is a particularly good example of a older style stallion, that is of a draft style, that DID evaluate well, receiving a blue ribbon. In fact, the evaluators (Karen Cabic and Wayne Hipsley) recognized the value in his style including the fact that he had good fjord type, and said publicly that we need to recognize and preserve this type in our gene pool. At another evaluation last year, an older style mare also received a blue ribbon in conformation, even though she was an older style draft mare. The same thing was said at this evaluation regarding the importance of preserving the draft style (older style, if you will) horses. At an evaluation this year, there were older style mares present, as well as more modern mares, and the majority did not have enough quality and movement to receive blue ribbons, however they did receive red ribbons. The comment was made that, just because they received red ribbons does not mean that they are not of good breeding quality. My point is, just because an individual horse is of an older style, or of a draft style, does not mean that they will not evaluate well. If an older horse is in good condition, is still able to move well, has correct conformation, and is of good fjord type, there is no reason that the horse wouldn't have the potential to evaluate in the Blue ribbon category. As for the semantics of evaluating well, what exactly does that mean? Does it mean that the horse did (or would) not receive a blue ribbon (score 80-100?) There are plenty of horses in the high red ribbon category (score 75-80) that are good breeding stock that are producing better than themselves. It sounds like, as you said, that there were more factors involved in your horse's current condition that might affect his overall score, should he be evaluated today. It would be VERY interesting to see Grabb presented today. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that he had evaluated somewhere along the lines of Patti Jo's stallion. He had to have been a magnificent stallion, drafty or not, simply because the Norwegians, the Dutch and the North Americans saw such value in him as to use him so extensively in the breeding shed. While I was in Norway, I saw a 25 year old stallion presented to the judges to receive his breeding license in Norway. The horse had been spending his time in Belgium (I believe) and was returning to Norway for breeding. He was in fantastic shape, received good scores and hence received his breeding license even though he was a little shorter in the leg than the more modern style horses (and was definitely longer in the tooth!) Lynda, please don't judge the entire evaluation system because of one statement made by one evaluator to you, personally, on your farm. This is only one person's opinion (hence the reason for having at least two evaluators per event.) Perhaps you have concerns about other things that you have heard of regarding the evaluation of horses in our system, but have you ever attended an NFHR evaluation? In addition to making public comments about the horses to make the event a learning experience for everyone attending, the evaluators are available for discussion regarding specific issues or concerns that you might have regarding a particular horse that is present at that evaluation. I'm not telling you to bring your stallion to an evaluation. Goodness knows, it sounds like he's already worth his weight in gold (Gene Bauer knew a good horse) and has earned his keep without being evaluated, besides having a few physical issues that have come along with age and injury. #1, an evaluation is simply a good learning experience and, #2, it would be good to judge the process in person rather that relying on hearsay. Back to getting ready for Libby now. Respectfully, Beth -- Starfire Farm Beth Beymer and Sandy North http://www.starfirefarm.com Remember, a horse can tell you a lot of things, if you watch and expect it to be sensible and intelligent. Mary O'Hara - My Friend Flicka
Re: Engar
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tamara, Same here! :)) If you ever visit Michigan, stop in and see us! Lynda In a message dated 8/28/2004 6:31:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Lynda - I loved the Engar stories! I've never met Engar, but I love him!
Re: Engar
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Jean, You have done wonders with your Gunnar! I have already voiced my opinions concerning evaluations on the Fjord Issues board. As this is one of those issues that seems to become heated as it is such a sensitive topic to most Fjord people, I think it best the discussion remains there so we do not inadvertently create unwanted waves on this list! Lynda In a message dated 8/28/2004 6:01:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hello Baileys, I am interested in what was said about Grabb and Engar re evaluating. I have Gunnar a son of Grabb out of Guldua (the beautiful). He is about 13 3 and more the draft type. Thanks much, references are available. Lynda and Daniel Bailey's Norwegian Fjord Horse Farm White Cloud, MI 231-689-9902 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hometown.aol.com/baileysfjords/index.html
Re: Engar
This message is from: Tamara Rousso [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lynda - I loved the Engar stories! I've never met Engar, but I love him! Tamara Fallbrook On Friday, August 27, 2004, at 10:17 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Amy, everyone, I got quite a few private responses today about Engar asking to hear about him! So, here we go...
Re: Engar
This message is from: jgayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Baileys, I am interested in what was said about Grabb and Engar re evaluating. I have Gunnar a son of Grabb out of Guldua (the beautiful). He is about 13 3 and more the draft type. He also had been abused and then spoiled by the person who rescued him. As a result I had my hands full when he arrived here. He tried his best to kill the Vet who was examining him. Eyes showing white and teeth bared and both hind feet kicking. I was holding him and had my crop and let him have it across the chest. He stopped, looked at me with thoughts of killing but quit. I knew then that I could handle him and that he had good training at one time. He is the most trustworthy horse under saddle and has mellowed toward me over these past four years. Jean Gayle PS I would never have Gunnar evaluated as one he is a gelding and two he is a bit too compact? Author The Colonel's Daughter Occupied Germany 46-49 Send $20 to: PO Box 104 Montesano, WA 98563
Brenderup and Engar
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I get the List in digest mode, so forgive my late response. We have owned a Brenderup Royal for the last four years. We got it used. People don't believe it, but I get my 17.1 hand warmblood in it without a problem. Fjords are not an issue. It's great to drive, very safe and easy to care for. And of course, it is easy enough to find your trailer at a horse show since it doesn't look like all the rest. I only wish Brenderup made 4 and 6 horse models! On Engar, I'd like to add that we have his full sister on our farm. Serina is 25 and is the best Fjord I have ever bought. She rides, she drives, does lessons, parades, and trails. You ask it, she does it without hesitation. She can handle a beginner rider but canstilltakeanintermediateoveracourse. My vet finds is hard to believe she is 25. Her temperament is terrific, too. About the worst thing I can say about her is that she has the begging for treats routine down pat. I actually referred the lady who bought Enser to Pat Holland. One of the many reasons I did so, aside from Pat being honest and reputable, is that I knew she had an Engar son. I'm thrilled that it has worked out so well for everyone. Margaret Bogie Ironwood Farm Rixeyville, VA 22737 http://ironwood-farm.com
Re: Engar
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Amy, everyone, I got quite a few private responses today about Engar asking to hear about him! So, here we go... First of all, we do have a few pictures of Engar on our site. The main Fjord on our wallpaper throughout the pages is Engar, as is the headshot on the first page. The Fjord with a haircut on the transportation page is Engar playing around after his fall roaching. By the way, we also always roach the manes in fall, usually November unless we are having an early winter. Eventually, I am sure we will get around to getting more pictures of him up, just have not done it yet! Engar, who's name roughly means fertile fields, was one of four standing stallions of Gene Bauer's farm. Susan Keating took some time to give me some information concerning his life there. From the time Engar was born until he was 7 years of age, he was enrolled in their full time training program. I am under the impression Mr. Bauer chose his stallions from how they performed during this timeframe through various disciplines, with also an obvious eye toward conformation, movement, and temperament. Gene Bauer also was very specific about size. Engar stands a bit over 14.1. I am not sure if Engar was part of Mr. Bauer's stallion driving teams or not, we did see one picture that looked much like Engar but it was a bit hazy so someone else would have to let us know on that. After Engar's graduation, he was turned out with his herd of mares and became a pasture stallion. During the estate sale, Engar was sold to another farm. He was approximately 14 or 15 at the time. We purchased Engar when he was almost 17. He had not had the best treatment in the world at this particular farm. In fact, he and another filly that was pregnant at the time were destined to go to a meat auction if not sold quickly enough as this farm was relocating. We offered to buy Engar and ended up buying them both as this was the only way we could get Engar. Engar was quite thin upon arrival, poor hooves, long tangled mane, horrid teeth, an unbelievable worm loadand a fear of long handled objects. The young filly was also terrified of such things, but her fear was deeper. Engar figured out quite quickly that things were different on our farm. After about a year of work with his weight, hooves, and also a flotation, AND a mane trim Engar was a new man! He had had a hock injury, presumably at the previous farm for I find it hard to believe this happened on the Bauer's farm, that had never been adequately treated for. He will always have a bit of swelling in the hock region. As this affected both hocks, we are not sure if this happened at pasture or if he was hit with somethingwe will never know. It was confirmed an injury by our vet, and we were told to not worry about it as it had been healed for a period of time by then. Engar is an amazing stallion in many ways. I am not sure where to even begin. He is always willing to do whatever is asked, regardless if it is a sudden bareback ride for our son, an experiment with a new saddle, pulling logs, standing patiently for however long while we learned to rig harnesswhatever we wanted, he has been there and is always willing. He also is EXCEPTIONALLY well mannered around people. He is not a placid stallion, please do not misunderstand for he very well understands his duty to his mares. :) However, if one is bringing a new mare to him and he gets wound up, all we have to do is say, Engar, NO until we release her and he will immediately back off until we are finished. He guards our farm diligently. When our son turned 2 and learned this amazing disappearing act that apparently is known by all children, we always knew where he was for Engar would look in that direction and holler. One time, our son decided to drive a tricycle underneath Engar's belly while he was in the crossties. I had a heart attack, Engar calmly moved the one foot that was in our son's tricycle's way. When our mares were poisoned last year, Engar would call me every time one went down. When Gwen prematurely foaled due to the poison, Engar hollered until I came outside, met me at the gate, and helped me (literally) get Gwen and the foal on their feet. He also insisted on overseeing the vet while she treated both Gwen and the foal, standing patiently with his nose over her shoulder. Engar's foals have always sold quickly. I can only think of one that resided here until a yearling. Most are sold as weanlings. They are always calm and willing, although still playful as foals can be! None have as yet to have been evaluated to the best of our knowledge. We did ask an evaluator to come to our farm about 5 years ago. She said Engar was of fine quality for a Fjord of his time but she did not believe he would evaluate well today. Her reasoning was because he was coarse, I think
Re: Engar
This message is from: Amy Goodloe [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 12:17 AM -0400 8/27/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have also learned that many people do not care for the older foundation stallions, especially those of the Gjesterson and King Herald lines. Why this is truly astounds me, for their temperaments and work ethics are to die for. He sounds like the kind of Fjord I would really like. Do you have any photos of him you can share? I love hearing about people's stallions, and why they chose them and what they're up to. I don't think it's self-serving at all (esp. since you're not standing him at stud, although even if you were I think it would be interesting to hear more about him). You've got my vote for more info, please! Thanks, --Amy
Re: Engar
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Linda, Obviously, we never listened to THAT advice! :) Nor would we. We have never advertised Engar for outside breeding, this is a personal choice we made when we first brought him home. Also, I have never been inclined to publicly brag about his accomplishments, it always comes across as self-serving to me! We love Engar and his foals. We also feel we are doing a service, as are other breeders, by continuing to breed these lines even in the face of a bit of unpopularity. Eventually, we are convinced these lines will be important for future retention of Fjord type. Lynda In a message dated 8/27/2004 8:56:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Lynda,I hope you put aside the thoughts of a few who feel a drafty style fjord stallion should be gelded..for heavens sake!!
Re: Engar
This message is from: Linda Lottie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lynda, I hope you put aside the thoughts of a few who feel a drafty style fjord stallion should be gelded..for heavens sake!! I recently viewed videos of several fjords...in my opinion, breeding for a balanced fjordhorse is most important...for without a balanced confirmation the movement is not there. By balanced I mean a fjordhorse that, no matter what type, moves beautifully. As the fjordhorse becomes more popular and more visible the type will become more a concern. It all depends on what the owner wants to do with the horse. I love to drive..hence, my wonderful drafty Sven suits me to a t! My daughter loves to ride...hence, Lena, who is a bit less drafty fits her to a te...a friend loves to ride dressage..hence, a lighter type fjord is her choice. As a breeder, I would think your job is to market your stallion to future owners in the dicipline your foals are best suited.Particularly if you are breeding fjordhorses on either end of the spectrum. While I love all fjords..all the various colors and types...for me personally..my breath is still wisked away by my 1200 lb, big butted, fabulous necked, powerful Sven...just thinking about him brings tears to my eyes. When he trots down a country road...there is nothing more spectacular in my eyeshe is happy and proud..just as a fjord should be!! Just hope and pray, no matter what you produce, the horse is loved and cared for by someone who appreciates the special qualities of a fjord. Linda Lottie..Minnesota From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: Engar Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 00:17:17 EDT This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Janne, Thank you for the comments! I tend to be fairly quiet about Engar, maybe I am selfish? He has been a dream come true for our farm and I cannot go on enough about how much he means to all of us here. I have also learned that many people do not care for the older foundation stallions, especially those of the Gjesterson and King Herald lines. Why this is truly astounds me, for their temperaments and work ethics are to die for. I have actually heard from a few people that they think stallions from these lines should be gelded! I guess imported blood is in. Of course, all the Fjords come from imported blood somewhere. :) No matter, we adore Engar. He is showing his age a bit this year which has bothered us a great deal. He is so full of life that it is difficult to remember he is 22 years old! Do you have new pictures of your colt? The last ones you sent were wonderful! Thanks for sharing! I would love to put him on our website, would you mind? Of course, we would give you photo credit and state your farm name. :) Lynda In a message dated 8/26/2004 1:55:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Lynda, don't worry about sending the last post to the list instead of to Pat privately. I think all of us need to hear about stallions and their offspring. And I just happen to have a Engar colt born here this summer, and he is probably the best moving colt I have ever seen. So, you have a right to to be proud of the ol' boy!!! Janne in wet ND Lynda and Daniel Bailey's Norwegian Fjord Horse Farm White Cloud, MI 231-689-9902 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hometown.aol.com/baileysfjords/index.html Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to School Guide!
Re: Engar
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Janne, Thank you for the comments! I tend to be fairly quiet about Engar, maybe I am selfish? He has been a dream come true for our farm and I cannot go on enough about how much he means to all of us here. I have also learned that many people do not care for the older foundation stallions, especially those of the Gjesterson and King Herald lines. Why this is truly astounds me, for their temperaments and work ethics are to die for. I have actually heard from a few people that they think stallions from these lines should be gelded! I guess imported blood is in. Of course, all the Fjords come from imported blood somewhere. :) No matter, we adore Engar. He is showing his age a bit this year which has bothered us a great deal. He is so full of life that it is difficult to remember he is 22 years old! Do you have new pictures of your colt? The last ones you sent were wonderful! Thanks for sharing! I would love to put him on our website, would you mind? Of course, we would give you photo credit and state your farm name. :) Lynda In a message dated 8/26/2004 1:55:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Lynda, don't worry about sending the last post to the list instead of to Pat privately. I think all of us need to hear about stallions and their offspring. And I just happen to have a Engar colt born here this summer, and he is probably the best moving colt I have ever seen. So, you have a right to to be proud of the ol' boy!!! Janne in wet ND Lynda and Daniel Bailey's Norwegian Fjord Horse Farm White Cloud, MI 231-689-9902 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hometown.aol.com/baileysfjords/index.html
Engar
This message is from: Janne [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lynda, don't worry about sending the last post to the list instead of to Pat privately. I think all of us need to hear about stallions and their offspring. And I just happen to have a Engar colt born here this summer, and he is probably the best moving colt I have ever seen. So, you have a right to to be proud of the ol' boy!!! Janne in wet ND
