Re: Weight Carrying Abilities of Fjords

[FJORDFUN]

This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Linda: Thanks for the positive comments on me sticking my neck
out to try to make a rider out of someone who had the enthusiasm, but
not the svelte build. She is an unusual person, with boundless enthusiasm
or I would have been less prone to consider taking her on. The reason 
I sent in the whole story, with all the non-flattering details, is that I 
wanted
to share problem with others, so each person need not go through the actual
experience, in order to glean the teaching moments, for themselves. I hope
each of you may be better prepared to handle the situation, using my 
experience, not necessarily reaching the same conclusions. I think that's
the most valuable part of this e-community.
Cheers,
Alex

Re: Weight Carrying Abilities of Fjords

[FJORDFUN]

This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Denise, thanks for the advice. I am beginning to be convinced
that my portly student should not be allowed to ride (here) until she 
sheds some weight! Thanks for the reminder that is better to err on the
side of caution. Just returned from Nantucket. What a wild place! I had
never been there before. We went for a family reunion and were about 
twenty miles from where John Kennedy's plane went down when it 
happened. Very sad for an already overburdened family. I saw horses
(not Fjords) on the island. What a life for them (in a negative sense)
they were in tiny sandy paddocks. And could you imagine what hay
must cost there? It's running $5 - $7 per bale in New England and on
Nantucket, the cost of everything rises because of the cost of the ferry.
They would have to be sustained on hay year round, as there is no 
pasture. 
From Alex Wind, very glad to be home in the lush green mountains
of Virginia!

Re: Re: Weight Carrying Abilities of Fjords

[Jean Gayle]

This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Hooray Vivian, nicely said!
Jean Gayle
Aberdeen, WA
[Authoress of "The Colonel's Daughter" ]
http://www.techline.com/~jgayle
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 5:51 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Weight Carrying Abilities of Fjords


>This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>After reading so many posts on the weight issue I just thought I'd
>share this with the list.

>
>Riding well isn't a matter of size. It is a matter of understanding
>the concept and working hard mentally and physically in harmony with
>your horse. This doesn't happen overnight just because you've been
>blessed with a fabulous physique, it takes years of practice, but all
>of us have to start somewhere. Be us skinny or fat! Vivian Creigh
>
>

Re: Re: Weight Carrying Abilities of Fjords

[Reinbowend]

This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

After reading so many posts on the weight issue I just thought I'd
share this with the list.

Last week I judged the end of Pony Club Clinic dressage tests. Ages of
riders range from 10 to 16. They come in all shapes and sizes with a
wide range of abilities. In my Training Level 3 test I had a young
lady who stood out way above the others. She rode an intelligent,
thinking test. She was prepared for her transitions. She used her
hands, seat and leg in a very mature and thoughtful way. Her whole
test was a pleasure to watch, calm, cadenced and correct. Despite the
fact that this girl weighed ALOT! and was a child. She had obviously
worked very hard mentally as well as physically. Her pony was some
sort of draft cross not very tall but chunky, perfectly suited to this
girls build, but not a school master by any means. I remember this
pair from last year. Their improvement was measureable. She went on to
jump clean cross country and stadium to win their division. Every mark
I gave her she earned and I was very pleased to see her finish so well
as she displayed a good deal of maturity for one so young.

Riding well isn't a matter of size. It is a matter of understanding
the concept and working hard mentally and physically in harmony with
your horse. This doesn't happen overnight just because you've been
blessed with a fabulous physique, it takes years of practice, but all
of us have to start somewhere. Be us skinny or fat! Vivian Creigh

Re: Weight Carrying Abilities of Fjords

[Denise Delgado]

This message is from: "Denise Delgado" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

thank you pamela.  at least someone understands my original message.  though
it did seem to touch a lot of hot buttons.  denise
- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: Weight Carrying Abilities of Fjords


> This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> In a message dated 7/13/99 15:05:54 Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> writes:
>
> <<   i agree that alex's story  was great, and  i still think there is a
case
> for lessened coordination etc  in people of weight.  >>
>
> Have to respectfully disagree about this.  And the statement that
overweight
> people have poor reflexes.  I'm not as young or light as I used to be, but
my
> reflexes haven't declined one bit.  Maybe it's from running after my
special
> needs son, to keep him out of trouble, I don't know, but reflexes are
intact.
>  And there are s many people I can think of who are extremely heavy,
but
> light on their feet as cats.  To think of one, Jackie Gleason was pretty
darn
> nimble in his prime.   Ah well, you know, it's generalities that get us
into
> trouble.  Everybody's got their own unique situation, with a generous dose
of
> qualities and flaws.  It's how we deal with these that make us better or
> worse riders (or humans).  I understand what you were trying to say, and
that
> you were trying to be helpful in your original post.  And that's what is
> important.
>
> Pamela
>

Re: Weight Carrying Abilities of Fjords

[Northhorse]

This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

In a message dated 7/13/99 15:05:54 Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

<<   i agree that alex's story  was great, and  i still think there is a case 
for lessened coordination etc  in people of weight.  >>

Have to respectfully disagree about this.  And the statement that overweight 
people have poor reflexes.  I'm not as young or light as I used to be, but my 
reflexes haven't declined one bit.  Maybe it's from running after my special 
needs son, to keep him out of trouble, I don't know, but reflexes are intact. 
 And there are s many people I can think of who are extremely heavy, but 
light on their feet as cats.  To think of one, Jackie Gleason was pretty darn 
nimble in his prime.   Ah well, you know, it's generalities that get us into 
trouble.  Everybody's got their own unique situation, with a generous dose of 
qualities and flaws.  It's how we deal with these that make us better or 
worse riders (or humans).  I understand what you were trying to say, and that 
you were trying to be helpful in your original post.  And that's what is 
important.   

Pamela

Re: Weight Carrying Abilities of Fjords

[Denise Delgado]

This message is from: "Denise Delgado" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

dear linda and list,  i believe that fat people are just that, fat.  just
like skinny people are skinny.  no one gets upset when we say that, just
like they should'nt get upset with the word "fat".   (too much worrying
about what is and is'nt politically correct.)   i agree that alex's story
was great, and  i still think there is a case for lessened coordination etc
in people of weight.  i also agree that beginners might have a problem too,
but it should be the owner's call as to whether he will or will not teach
someone, without having to worry about being sued for discrimination if
someone is fat and uses that as the reason.  it is, after all, his
livelyhood on the line.   he asked for opinions and i gave mine, as you did
for yours too.   it makes everyone think a little more.  so lets get back to
the real point of this list, and that is the great fjords we all love to
talk about.denise delgado in mokelumne hill.
- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, July 12, 1999 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: Weight Carrying Abilities of Fjords


> This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Hello Denise, everyone,
>
> I found the comments made, i.e. "fat rider" and "weighting" to be very
> offensive.  I am also a little confusedit would seem to me that any
> beginning rider might have problems with "balance, coordination, and quick
> reflexes".  Should this be taken that people should not train beginning
> riders as well, or only "fat" beginning riders?
>
> I think when people decide to professionally train, open a business, etc.,
> they must be careful of all aspects, including liability AND
discrimination.
> One has to weigh this carefully, I do think.
>
> Alex, I found your story wonderful, and think it is great you took this
> student on!  You obviously were sucessful, else she would not be coming
back
> to you!
>
> Lynda
>
>
>

Re: Weight Carrying Abilities of Fjords

[Epona1971]

This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

In a message dated 7/13/99 9:30:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< One thing I have learned in my quest for physical and emotional strength
 and serenity is that there comes a point when we must decide for
 ourselves what path to walk (or ride),
 and to have faith that whatever others say, there will be teachers to
 lead us.
 
 Praising The Creator for the love in this world,  >>

I love your post, Kari Ann! It really made my day.

How hard it is to see yourself beautiful, when others criticize. It is so 
hard for me, even thought I know it's true. I still hear that little voice 
saying "not good enough". Thank God for horses, who bring out the truth in 
us. Don't know what I'd do without my guys.

Brigid

Re: Weight Carrying Abilities of Fjords

[Kari Ann Owen]

This message is from: Kari Ann Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Just a note... I am in the 200 lb range and have wonderful equitation
training, have been evaluated by several instructors as having excellent
balance and an excellent seat, and am looking forward to the Fjord in my
future as my instructor will be purchasing one.

In fact, many of you have been terribly generous with your information
and encouragement, and we are both terribly grateful and happily
inspired by the beautiful pictures of the Fjords you have so kindly sent
us.

As for as largeness and movement... I have also had several years of
modern dance training and have taught other large and handicapped
persons, have performed at the Universoty of California, Berkeley and
the Moscone Center in San Francisco, among other places, and have been
inspired and blessed by the love of teachers in both the dance and horse
worlds.

Liability and rider safety are legitimate concerns. So are healing of
the soul and body. 

One thing I have learned in my quest for physical and emotional strength
and serenity is that there comes a point when we must decide for
ourselves what path to walk (or ride),
and to have faith that whatever others say, there will be teachers to
lead us.

Praising The Creator for the love in this world, 

Kari Ann
-- 
Please access my web site at 
for my artistic, academic and performing resumés, and... 
a great low-fat lasagna recipe!

Re: Weight Carrying Abilities of Fjords

[WhipsNSpur]

This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

In a message dated 7/13/99 12:34:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

>  the liability is just too much to handle
This is what hold harmless agreements are for!  I state in mine that the 
student must carry their own medical insurance.  I also have a questionairre 
that asks for existing medical issues.  I make my students sign a new 
aggreemnet and fill out a new form every 6 months.  My insurance only 
requires them yearly but it has been recommended that for the "safety" of my 
business to do it twice a year.  You can refuse a rider due to her 
weight...but what if it was a thin rider with a history of blackouts?  Or a 
history of seizures?  I had a child who blacked out in stressful 
situationsvery scary!  And I was not told of it ahead of time.  So now I 
ask.  I also ask if there is anything that will interfere with the lesson, 
but I don't turn them away just for being obese.  I do tend to spend more 
time on balancing work (ie-ground poles, jumping position, work without 
stirrups) and I keep all my students in private lessons until they are 
completely confident in all 3 gaits.
Kate

Re: Weight Carrying Abilities of Fjords

[Heithingi]

This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Hello Denise, everyone,

I found the comments made, i.e. "fat rider" and "weighting" to be very 
offensive.  I am also a little confusedit would seem to me that any 
beginning rider might have problems with "balance, coordination, and quick 
reflexes".  Should this be taken that people should not train beginning 
riders as well, or only "fat" beginning riders?

I think when people decide to professionally train, open a business, etc., 
they must be careful of all aspects, including liability AND discrimination.  
One has to weigh this carefully, I do think.

Alex, I found your story wonderful, and think it is great you took this 
student on!  You obviously were sucessful, else she would not be coming back 
to you!

Lynda

Re: Weight Carrying Abilities of Fjords

[Denise Delgado]

This message is from: "Denise Delgado" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

dear alex,  about the fat rider.  i would not let her ride at my place until
she lost some weight!  the liability is just too much to handle.  overweight
people don't have the balance, coordination and quick relflexes riders need.
it is trouble just "weighting" to happen.  i'm an r.n. and you are lucky she
just got a pelvic fracture, which can be life- threatening in itself if she
had ruptured a major internal artery or ureter, kidney, liver, speen etc.
for your own safety, think about it carefully.  only trying to help, denise
delgado in hot northern calif.
- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, July 11, 1999 8:18 AM
Subject: Weight Carrying Abilities of Fjords


> This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Dear KariAnn,
> I had a woman come to my riding stable asking for lessons. the
> problem being that she weighed over 300 lbs. I thought about it and
> decided to let her try riding Gillyn, my eight year old Fjord gelding,
> who is big (15.1 hands) and sturdy. I took extra care with the mounting
> process, making sure she had a mounting block and someone to hold
> Gillyn, and someone to hold the other stirrup, to prevent saddle slippage.
> All went well, as Gillyn is very patient and is very glad to just walk, if
> that's all a beginning rider is ready for. Many lessons went by
uneventfully,
> and the woman was having the time of her life. One day, however, it all
came
> to a screeching halt because she tried to mount by herself and the saddle,
> which she had put on herself, was too loose. It slipped, she and Gillyn
were
> upset, and I made the mistake of continuing on with the riding lesson. She
had
> been trotting beautifully in the previous lesson, and since I had other
> people in the
> class, and didn't want to hold them back, I gave the command to trot. She
> told
> Gillyn to trot and he did, bless his heart, but she wasn't ready, or
didn't
> believe in her own ability enough, and she didn't lean forward with the
> motion,
> so sort of got back on his croup, and he got a bit scared and trotted
right
> out
> from under her, with a buck thrown in, as I'm sure it was a relief to get
out
> from
> under that weight. She fell with a thud, and visions of loosing my farm
> flashed
> through my head. Fortunately, as I'm relying on my homeowners, she is a
very
> sensible woman and realized that the fault was shared. I offered to pay
all
> her medical expenses, which she refused. The injury was a cracked pelvis,
no
> concussion, or other effects, and no surgery necessary, only ex-rays,
rest,
> and
> a few follow-up visits. This discouraged her from riding, but probably not
> permanently. She's gone for the summer, but wants to resume when she
returns.
> The mistakes I made are as follows: (Please learn from them!)
> 1) I didn't (and still don't have sufficient insurance to be
> teaching
> riding lessons, in ten years this is the only serious
> accident we
> have had. I work full time, and the lessons are a
> sideline, so it's
> hard to justify the cost of the insurance.
> 2) I was helping another student tack up at the time she
> tried to
> mount by herself. Tell beginners never to mount by
> themselves,
> until you okay them for that step. She was bursting
> with "I wanna
> do it myself!" I guess that's why they say "Pride
> goeth before a fall."
> 3) I mixed students of different riding ability levels. This
> is not a good
> policy. The more advanced ones get bored with the
> simple drills,
> and the beginners try to hard to "keep up" with the
> more experienced
> students, thus trying things they are not really
> ready for.
> 4) I mixed age groups. I asked if everybody was ready to
> trot, before I
> gave the command, but since adults are usually ahead
> of and in
> charge of children, it would have been hard for this
> adult student
> to admit in front of those sassy intermediate girls,
> that she wasn't
> ready to trot, which she wasn't.
> The Fjord was perfectly capable of carrying the weight he was asked
> to carry,
> and he did it to the best of his ability; the problems stemmed from other
> sources, as I have outlined.
> You should think about the special conditions your weight may impose
> before
> selecting a riding instructor and a mount. As I told this heavy woman,
asking
> Gillyn to carry her, (300 to 1200) was like asking her to walk and jog
with
> 75 pounds strapped on to her back. she said "That's a lot!" Yes, it's a
lot
> but
> it is doable, under the right circumstances.
> Best of luck and keep us posted how it goes. You may not be anywhere
> near as heavy as the student I am talking about. Fjords are capable of
> carrying large men or women, because of their heavy bone. They should
> however be well shod, well conditioned and truly mature.
> Alex Wind
> Harmony Springs Farm
> Shawsville VA 24162
>

Re: Weight Carrying Abilities of Fjords

[WhipsNSpur]

This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

In a message dated 7/11/99 11:20:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> 
 I work full time, and the lessons are a 
>  sideline, so it's
hard to justify the cost of the insurance.

I don't know how much you were quoted but my teaching insurance only costs me 
$250 per year with 1 school horse on it.  And I teach full time.  I feel, as 
you may well now, that the risks outweigh anything and insurance is a must 
for anyone teaching ANY kind of lesson.  Cost does depend on the size of your 
operation, but it's better than paying the medical bills of someone who tries 
to sue you.
Kate

Weight Carrying Abilities of Fjords

[FJORDFUN]

This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Dear KariAnn,
I had a woman come to my riding stable asking for lessons. the 
problem being that she weighed over 300 lbs. I thought about it and
decided to let her try riding Gillyn, my eight year old Fjord gelding, 
who is big (15.1 hands) and sturdy. I took extra care with the mounting
process, making sure she had a mounting block and someone to hold 
Gillyn, and someone to hold the other stirrup, to prevent saddle slippage.
All went well, as Gillyn is very patient and is very glad to just walk, if
that's all a beginning rider is ready for. Many lessons went by uneventfully,
and the woman was having the time of her life. One day, however, it all came
to a screeching halt because she tried to mount by herself and the saddle,
which she had put on herself, was too loose. It slipped, she and Gillyn were 
upset, and I made the mistake of continuing on with the riding lesson. She had
been trotting beautifully in the previous lesson, and since I had other 
people in the
class, and didn't want to hold them back, I gave the command to trot. She 
told 
Gillyn to trot and he did, bless his heart, but she wasn't ready, or didn't 
believe in her own ability enough, and she didn't lean forward with the 
motion,
so sort of got back on his croup, and he got a bit scared and trotted right 
out
from under her, with a buck thrown in, as I'm sure it was a relief to get out 
from
under that weight. She fell with a thud, and visions of loosing my farm 
flashed
through my head. Fortunately, as I'm relying on my homeowners, she is a very 
sensible woman and realized that the fault was shared. I offered to pay all 
her medical expenses, which she refused. The injury was a cracked pelvis, no
concussion, or other effects, and no surgery necessary, only ex-rays, rest, 
and
a few follow-up visits. This discouraged her from riding, but probably not 
permanently. She's gone for the summer, but wants to resume when she returns.
The mistakes I made are as follows: (Please learn from them!)
1) I didn't (and still don't have sufficient insurance to be 
teaching
riding lessons, in ten years this is the only serious 
accident we 
have had. I work full time, and the lessons are a 
sideline, so it's
hard to justify the cost of the insurance.
2) I was helping another student tack up at the time she 
tried to 
mount by herself. Tell beginners never to mount by 
themselves,
until you okay them for that step. She was bursting 
with "I wanna
do it myself!" I guess that's why they say "Pride 
goeth before a fall."
3) I mixed students of different riding ability levels. This 
is not a good 
policy. The more advanced ones get bored with the 
simple drills,
and the beginners try to hard to "keep up" with the 
more experienced
students, thus trying things they are not really 
ready for.
4) I mixed age groups. I asked if everybody was ready to 
trot, before I 
gave the command, but since adults are usually ahead 
of and in
charge of children, it would have been hard for this 
adult student
to admit in front of those sassy intermediate girls, 
that she wasn't 
ready to trot, which she wasn't.
The Fjord was perfectly capable of carrying the weight he was asked 
to carry,
and he did it to the best of his ability; the problems stemmed from other 
sources, as I have outlined.
You should think about the special conditions your weight may impose 
before
selecting a riding instructor and a mount. As I told this heavy woman, asking
Gillyn to carry her, (300 to 1200) was like asking her to walk and jog with
75 pounds strapped on to her back. she said "That's a lot!" Yes, it's a lot 
but
it is doable, under the right circumstances.
Best of luck and keep us posted how it goes. You may not be anywhere
near as heavy as the student I am talking about. Fjords are capable of
carrying large men or women, because of their heavy bone. They should
however be well shod, well conditioned and truly mature.
Alex Wind
Harmony Springs Farm
Shawsville VA 24162