Re: fjords...mule-like??
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] A couple of weeks ago I was watching either The Outdoor Channel or Animal Planet and they had a condensed version of her Training Mules show. It was pretty good. I DID object to her use of drawreins, and I believe I saw flash nosebands in the dressage portion. Other than those two aspects of training that I completely object to, I liked her style. Pamela
Re: fjords...mule-like??
This message is from: "linda hickam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
all this talk of mule=like, has reminded me of this great book I
have.."Training Mules and Donkeys...A Logical Approach to Longears" by
Meredith Hodgesit is wonderful for any equine
training.Simple,,thorough and lots of pics of world class mules!{Oh I want
oneno linda you're concentrating on Fjords!} I sold my last mule last
month.linda in Idaho "if you can train a mule you can train a Fjord!"
--
>From: "Mary Thurman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
>Subject: Re: fjords...mule-like??
>Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2000, 10:27 AM
>
>This message is from: Mary Thurman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>--- Denise Delgado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> This message is from: "Denise Delgado"
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>> dear mary,
>> then, what i have been doing routinely with my
>> horses before the loose round
>> pen work IS halter training.!
> gotta go, thanks for the info.
>
>You are welcome. Keep at it - they'll stop pushing
>you, but you may need to keep reminding them.
>Eventually it will come automatically to them to 'give
>over' whenever you come close to them. Glendar still
>has 'mental lapses' at five, but says "oh, excuse me"
>when reminded.
>
> you are really
>> good at getting the
>> message across in as few words as possible...you
>> should write a book!!
>
>Oh, I think there are probably enough of them out
>there already :) - plus all the 'guru' clinicians
>floating around these days. Plus, what I have been
>saying isn't original to me, it comes from what I have
>learned from a couple of the less-well-known
>clinicians. I always have my 'eye out' for something
>that might make life with the Fjords easier on me!!
>
>Mary
>
>=
>Mary Thurman
>Raintree Farms
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>__
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
>http://photos.yahoo.com
>
Re: fjords...mule-like??
This message is from: Mary Thurman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- Denise Delgado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This message is from: "Denise Delgado" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > dear mary, > then, what i have been doing routinely with my > horses before the loose round > pen work IS halter training.! gotta go, thanks for the info. You are welcome. Keep at it - they'll stop pushing you, but you may need to keep reminding them. Eventually it will come automatically to them to 'give over' whenever you come close to them. Glendar still has 'mental lapses' at five, but says "oh, excuse me" when reminded. you are really > good at getting the > message across in as few words as possible...you > should write a book!! Oh, I think there are probably enough of them out there already :) - plus all the 'guru' clinicians floating around these days. Plus, what I have been saying isn't original to me, it comes from what I have learned from a couple of the less-well-known clinicians. I always have my 'eye out' for something that might make life with the Fjords easier on me!! Mary = Mary Thurman Raintree Farms [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com
Re: fjords...mule-like??
This message is from: "Denise Delgado" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> dear mary, then, what i have been doing routinely with my horses before the loose round pen work IS halter training.!. i bring them into the round pen and do maybe 5-10 minutes of flexing and bending and giving exercises, both sides, (i'm still on the ground at this point). i tap them with my crop on the spot where my leg would be if i am on top. then trot them, still on the lead, talking all the time. i have them back, halt, walk, trot and do as many kinds of contorsions as possible TO MY COMMANDS. this seems to get them focused and pay attention to me rather then the goats or their horse pals. they're released from the lead at this point and then i do my regular round pen work, voice commands etc. then if i still have enough energy and it's not too hot, up i go and we finish with a little tool (sp?) around the neightborhood. (i live in a rural area out in the country). i do this two to three times a week. trail rides on the weekends, even if just an hour or two. gotta go, thanks for the info. you are really good at getting the message across in as few words as possible...you should write a book!! denise mary thurman wrote... > The 'halter driving' thing is an exercise you do - > like many other training exercises - to teach the > horse or mule the 'proper' response to your presence. > Once he learns the 'right way' to do things, you can > ask him to move away and give you some space
Re: fjords...mule-like??
This message is from: Mary Thurman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- Denise Delgado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This message is from: "Denise Delgado" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > so, mary, that means if a fjord crowds you, you > have to have a halter on > him at that moment to teach him that crowding is not > cool. if you have to > go and get the halter and put it on, he will not > put the two incidents > together in his mind; Denise, The 'halter driving' thing is an exercise you do - like many other training exercises - to teach the horse or mule the 'proper' response to your presence. Once he learns the 'right way' to do things, you can ask him to move away and give you some space at any time - whether he has a halter on or not. For example: one of our horses was fond of crowding me in the stall. Our trainer showed me how to 'drive him away'(just involves going around the stall with him circling/moving away from you around the outside of the stall) from me in the stall WITH the halter and rope on him. Once he learned that pushing me around in the stall had consequences - and learned to move away when asked to - I could 'remind' him of his manners without the halter and lead. Whenever I enter the stall with any of my horses, I ask them to please move over and give me room. And DON'T ever present me with the 'rear view', thank you very much! These things are more easily taught while the horse is still small, but can also be taught to the 'big boys/girls' as well. When I am with my horses - in a stall, in the arena, in the pasture, wherever - I want their attention on me!! They need to be paying attention and not jostling me around - that means they 'face up' and watch - no butts. They are friendly, agreeable horses and love attention, but they know-for the most part-that manners are required. I use the 'nail thing' at times on a particularly recalcitrant one who insists on 'laying over' on you in a tie stall or in a trailer when you need to get by them to untie or clean or whatever. Sometimes you just have to 'bite back' to protect yourself - other horses do. Remember how small a person is compared to a horse - and remember how horses treat each other in the herd. I double we could do much damage, and it does help with the respect thing. I've seen a woman pay the consequences of getting into a 'squeeze' with a horse in a trailer - what gave was her ribs!! Not fun! Mary = Mary Thurman Raintree Farms [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com
Re: fjords...mule-like??
This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Denise, I have had no problem with any breed re fearing the "nail holder" They know when they are crowding, watch what happens in the herd, and they know that good behavior is painless. Jean Jean Gayle Aberdeen, WA [Authoress of "The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 TO 1949 ] http://www.techline.com/~jgayle Barnes & Noble Book Stores
RE: fjords...mule-like??
This message is from: "Turcotte, Dianne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi all, This is a subject that has come up recently for me. The fjord who I am leasing has just recently started being very uncooperative about moving to one side, on the ground, when you ask her. She has always been described as a "bull" to work with, but I had done some work with her in the past and it seemed we were over this. Now she absolutely refuses to give when tappped on the side and pushes back with a vengance and will slam you into the side of the barn, stalls whatever. I am embarrased to admit that I tried pushing kicking to no real avail. I was pinned to the side of the barn. This is not my horse, so I am hesitant to do anything else and don't know what is really appropriate. The only explanation I can give for this is that she recently coliced and now she is getting rich bran mashes w molasses and sweet 3 times a week, we have not treated her any differently, but she has been ridden a little less because the horse that I own is sick. Any suggestions? Or do you think the nail will really do the trick? -Dianne in Mass -Original Message- From: Mary Thurman To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Sent: 6/12/00 5:12 PM Subject: Re: fjords...mule-like?? This message is from: Mary Thurman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- Jean Gayle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This message is from: "Jean Gayle" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > I do not know if this is the "mule" method but if a > horse starts getting > pushy and crowding me I carry a small block of wood > with a nail protruding > about an inch, good sized so it does not pierce the > skin, and press it > against the horse. They rapidly get the idea that > to get up against her is > painful. It does not come across as punishment as > they do not see the nail. Hmmm. Sounds a bit like the old 'hot potato in the jacket sleeve for a horse that bites' trick! Have used the nail bit to teach a horse not to crowd me in the stall also. Mary > Jean > > > > > Jean Gayle > Aberdeen, WA > [Authoress of "The Colonel's Daughter" > Occupied Germany 1946 TO 1949 ] > http://www.techline.com/~jgayle > Barnes & Noble Book Stores > > = Mary Thurman Raintree Farms [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com
Re: fjords...mule-like??
This message is from: "Denise Delgado" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> dear mary, do you mind telling me who this "other" no-name trainer is? send me a private email and i'll keep it hush-hush. please? denise, in moke. hill, northern calif. - Original Message - From: Mary Thurman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 10:36 AM Subject: Re: fjords...mule-like?? > This message is from: Mary Thurman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > --- Denise Delgado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > This message is from: "Denise Delgado" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > while at the horse expo > > the other day in > > sacramento, i ran into a trainer. we got to talking > > and he said he had > > worked with two fjords in the past. he said his > > perception of them is that > > they have a mule-like temperment. he said they are > > very stubborn and > > implied they are basically harder to deal with than > > a regular horse. i know > > mule-people would take this statement as a > > compliment. but i don't think he > > meant it that way. what do you all think? > > Denise, > > The man who started our three-year-old Fjords under > saddle for us trains horses for a living. I guess > that makes him a horse trainer - he also trains/owns > mules. When he told us that our Fjords were > mule-like, he meant it as a compliment/statement of > fact. What he meant by it was that Fjords DO react to > some training methods differently from, say, a paint > or quarter horse. Fjords are not as "flight" oriented > as other breeds. They tend to trot off a ways, stop, > turn around and look at you and 'think it over'. They > also like to have time to think about a new maneuver - > hence they seem to respond more slowly. There are > some Fjords who - once they get something down > pat(like roundpenning) - are most insulted by what > they consider 'mindless repetition' - "O.K., boss, I > get it. Now can we go on to something else before I > die of boredom?!" Another thing that Fjords do which > is 'mule-like' is LEAN on you/try to push you around > with their shoulder. If you use commonly accepted > 'mule methods' to conteract this, it works like a > charm. I know, I've tried it. > > So yes, Fjords are mule-like in my opinion. But in > the good ways. They only appear 'stubborn' to someone > who isn't smart enough to figure out what they are > doing and modify their methods to fit them. Buck > Brannaman was not smart enough to figure this out - > and nearly ruined one of my Fjords for me. This other > trainer - who is not a 'big name' trainer, and > certainly does not charge what Branaman does - stayed > up nights trying to figure out what was going on with > the Fjords, figured it out, and turned out great > horses for us. Need I say more? > > Mary > > > > > > > = > Mary Thurman > Raintree Farms > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! > http://photos.yahoo.com >
Re: fjords...mule-like??
This message is from: "Denise Delgado" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> so, mary, that means if a fjord crowds you, you have to have a halter on him at that moment to teach him that crowding is not cool. if you have to go and get the halter and put it on, he will not put the two incidents together in his mind; the crowding and the driving. what do you do if they do it at libery and halterless, which my horses are, unless i am working them or have them tied for some reason or other. the nail thing sounds like it will work, but will they assiociate the handler with the pain and tend to stay away, run away or fear the handler getting close to doctor, groom, whatever? - Original Message - > > Another thing that Fjords do which > > >is 'mule-like' is LEAN on you/try to push you > > around > involves a little 'halter driving'. Driving the horse > or mule forward in a circle while on a halter, and > using 'pressure' from the end of the halter rope to > teach him than he is to move away from you and not > come over towards you and either step on you or bump > you with his body.
Re: fjords...mule-like??
This message is from: Mary Thurman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- Jean Gayle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This message is from: "Jean Gayle" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > I do not know if this is the "mule" method but if a > horse starts getting > pushy and crowding me I carry a small block of wood > with a nail protruding > about an inch, good sized so it does not pierce the > skin, and press it > against the horse. They rapidly get the idea that > to get up against her is > painful. It does not come across as punishment as > they do not see the nail. Hmmm. Sounds a bit like the old 'hot potato in the jacket sleeve for a horse that bites' trick! Have used the nail bit to teach a horse not to crowd me in the stall also. Mary > Jean > > > > > Jean Gayle > Aberdeen, WA > [Authoress of "The Colonel's Daughter" > Occupied Germany 1946 TO 1949 ] > http://www.techline.com/~jgayle > Barnes & Noble Book Stores > > = Mary Thurman Raintree Farms [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com
Re: fjords...mule-like??
This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I do not know if this is the "mule" method but if a horse starts getting pushy and crowding me I carry a small block of wood with a nail protruding about an inch, good sized so it does not pierce the skin, and press it against the horse. They rapidly get the idea that to get up against her is painful. It does not come across as punishment as they do not see the nail. Jean Jean Gayle Aberdeen, WA [Authoress of "The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 TO 1949 ] http://www.techline.com/~jgayle Barnes & Noble Book Stores
Re: fjords...mule-like??
This message is from: carol j makosky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> GAIL RUSSELL wrote: > This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Another thing that Fjords do which > >is 'mule-like' is LEAN on you/try to push you around > >with their shoulder. If you use commonly accepted > >'mule methods' to conteract this, it works like a > >charm. I know, I've tried it. > > And what would this method be? :) > Gail Russell > Forestville CA > [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gail, I too would like to know more about dealing with this leaning on you and the mule method of handling this. -- "Built FJORD tough" Carol M. On Golden Pond
Re: fjords...mule-like??
This message is from: Mary Thurman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Another thing that Fjords do which > >is 'mule-like' is LEAN on you/try to push you > around > >with their shoulder. If you use commonly accepted > >'mule methods' to conteract this, it works like a > >charm. I know, I've tried it. > > And what would this method be? :) Well, let's seeit sounds a little complicated until you get the 'hang' of it, but it basically involves a little 'halter driving'. Driving the horse or mule forward in a circle while on a halter, and using 'pressure' from the end of the halter rope to teach him than he is to move away from you and not come over towards you and either step on you or bump you with his body. Kind of a 'my space, your space' type of thing. I've had a couple of Fjords that would bump into you/step on you 'accidentally' - "gee I didn't know you were there". What they are actually doing is pushing you around. A person doesn't weight enough to get anywhere by phsically pushing back, so you have to 'mentally' push them back. Brad Cameron, from Montana, gives clinics on mulemanship. I believe he also has tapes available to those interested. His website is: www.muletrainer.com Not all Fjords are this pushy, but some are, unfortunately. Using mule methods allows the Fjord time to "think" about what you're asking instead of just being expected to 'react' - which is what many modern horse training methods are based on. Hope this helps. Mary = Mary Thurman Raintree Farms [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com
Re: fjords...mule-like??
This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Another thing that Fjords do which >is 'mule-like' is LEAN on you/try to push you around >with their shoulder. If you use commonly accepted >'mule methods' to conteract this, it works like a >charm. I know, I've tried it. And what would this method be? :) Gail Russell Forestville CA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fjords...mule-like??
This message is from: Mary Thurman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- Denise Delgado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This message is from: "Denise Delgado" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> while at the horse expo > the other day in > sacramento, i ran into a trainer. we got to talking > and he said he had > worked with two fjords in the past. he said his > perception of them is that > they have a mule-like temperment. he said they are > very stubborn and > implied they are basically harder to deal with than > a regular horse. i know > mule-people would take this statement as a > compliment. but i don't think he > meant it that way. what do you all think? Denise, The man who started our three-year-old Fjords under saddle for us trains horses for a living. I guess that makes him a horse trainer - he also trains/owns mules. When he told us that our Fjords were mule-like, he meant it as a compliment/statement of fact. What he meant by it was that Fjords DO react to some training methods differently from, say, a paint or quarter horse. Fjords are not as "flight" oriented as other breeds. They tend to trot off a ways, stop, turn around and look at you and 'think it over'. They also like to have time to think about a new maneuver - hence they seem to respond more slowly. There are some Fjords who - once they get something down pat(like roundpenning) - are most insulted by what they consider 'mindless repetition' - "O.K., boss, I get it. Now can we go on to something else before I die of boredom?!" Another thing that Fjords do which is 'mule-like' is LEAN on you/try to push you around with their shoulder. If you use commonly accepted 'mule methods' to conteract this, it works like a charm. I know, I've tried it. So yes, Fjords are mule-like in my opinion. But in the good ways. They only appear 'stubborn' to someone who isn't smart enough to figure out what they are doing and modify their methods to fit them. Buck Brannaman was not smart enough to figure this out - and nearly ruined one of my Fjords for me. This other trainer - who is not a 'big name' trainer, and certainly does not charge what Branaman does - stayed up nights trying to figure out what was going on with the Fjords, figured it out, and turned out great horses for us. Need I say more? Mary = Mary Thurman Raintree Farms [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com
Re: fjords...mule-like??
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 6/11/00 7:35:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << he said his perception of them is that they have a mule-like temperment. he said they are very stubborn and implied they are basically harder to deal with than a regular horse. >> h. I think you handle any animal with respect and you will have an animal that enjoys their work. I've heard about a mule-like temperment before on this list, but find all my fjords, young and old are a bit opinionated, but willing partners. They tell me how they feel about something, I acknowledge it, and then ask them to do what I want anyway. If the horse is already trained, they will usually do as I ask. If it's a baby, I may need to show the youngster that there is nothing to fear, or any reason to balk. We're trailer training babies now. I find them very interested, curious and compliant. But I'm taking it slow. Guess I'd do that with any breed of horse though. Pamela
Re: fjords...mule-like??
This message is from: "linda hickam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I think mules are more self-preservation oriented than horses and definitely
less forgiving{they
remember every bad experience and then some} I've had a few mules and have
had a few Fjords.in my experience Fjords are definitely easier to work
with..linda
--
>From: "De.nise Delgado" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com
>Subject: fjords...mule-like??
>Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000, 9:53 AM
>
>This message is from: "Denise Delgado" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>listers,
>
>another question for you; while at the horse expo the other day in
>sacramento, i ran into a trainer. we got to talking and he said he had
>worked with two fjords in the past. he said his perception of them is that
>they have a mule-like temperment. he said they are very stubborn and
>implied they are basically harder to deal with than a regular horse. i know
>mule-people would take this statement as a compliment. but i don't think he
>meant it that way. what do you all think? denise in mokelumne hill,
>northern calif.
>
>
fjords...mule-like??
This message is from: "Denise Delgado" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> listers, another question for you; while at the horse expo the other day in sacramento, i ran into a trainer. we got to talking and he said he had worked with two fjords in the past. he said his perception of them is that they have a mule-like temperment. he said they are very stubborn and implied they are basically harder to deal with than a regular horse. i know mule-people would take this statement as a compliment. but i don't think he meant it that way. what do you all think? denise in mokelumne hill, northern calif.
