Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
Kevin Aebig wrote: Just so we're clear, I don't mean they simply enjoy their jobs. I'm talking about the guys who constantly learn, adapt and take their work home with them on a regular basis. The guys who eat, breathe and sleep their jobs. I've found that there are many guys fresh out of school who are like this for the first 6 months to a year and than taper off. Than it's simply 9 to 5 and everything else is a waste. Sounds like burnout. If you know a lot of them, than you're living in a pretty unique place compared to where I'm from. I'm pretty rigged into the industry here and generally most of the guys couldn't even do that if they wanted to. They have families or other commitments that infringe on their time. I think you meant to say 'their' (this group includes me) priorities change and coding all day every day just isnt as important or exciting as something like seeing the first smile on their childs face. anyway..its all getting a bit OT now. lets stick to what this list is about. :) martin. ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
Not even close. I think you don't quite get what I mean and for some reason
seem to think that not being "passionate about programming" is negative.
!k
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hank
williams
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 10:12 AM
To: Flashcoders mailing list
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
But it sounds like you consider having a family or other committments
mutually exclusive to "passion" or even continued learning. My
definition of passion did not require neglecting family though
certainly after hours work is generally an indicator of passion.
Personally, I know of several programmers that have a wife and kids
and who dedicate time to them, that I would consider passionate
programmers, though our definitons may be diverging. Personally, I
consider being a well rounded person useful in the context of
developing software for human beings. And though, right now I am
chained to my computer in a crunch to release a product, I dont
consider "having a life" to be a detriment to being passionate about
anything - programming included.
Hank
On 9/18/06, Kevin Aebig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just so we're clear, I don't mean they simply enjoy their jobs. I'm
talking
> about the guys who constantly learn, adapt and take their work home with
> them on a regular basis. The guys who eat, breathe and sleep their jobs.
>
> I've found that there are many guys fresh out of school who are like this
> for the first 6 months to a year and than taper off. Than it's simply 9 to
5
> and everything else is a waste.
>
> If you know a lot of them, than you're living in a pretty unique place
> compared to where I'm from. I'm pretty rigged into the industry here and
> generally most of the guys couldn't even do that if they wanted to. They
> have families or other commitments that infringe on their time.
>
> Cheers,
>
> !k
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hank
> williams
> Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 9:27 AM
> To: Flashcoders mailing list
> Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
>
> Thats interesting. I dont know many computer programmers that arent
> passionate - degree or not. Of course I am not a useful statistical
> sample, but obviously have had a different life experience.
>
> On 9/18/06, Kevin Aebig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Of course, but it's quite rare. I'm not saying all non-graduates are
> > passionate about learning their trade either. More often than not being
> > passionate about what you do for a living is pretty rare...
> >
> > !k
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hank
> > williams
> > Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 8:57 AM
> > To: Flashcoders mailing list
> > Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
> >
> > Are both not possible?
> >
> > On 9/18/06, Kevin Aebig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > I hear what you mean, as that has bit me in the ass a few times. I
> > honestly
> > > believe though that the people who learn out of passion, instead of
> > > requirement, end up with a better understanding in the end anyhow.
> > >
> > > !k
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave
> Watts
> > > Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 1:41 PM
> > > To: Flashcoders mailing list
> > > Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
> > >
> > > > Exactly, and I'm skeptical of anyone who requires a CompSci
> > > > degree for a Flash position because there isn't a single
> > > > college degree for Flash programming. ;)
> > >
> > > Comp Sci isn't about Flash programming, or Java programming, or
{insert
> > > language flavor of the week} programming. It's not even about
> programming.
> > > My personal observation, however, is that people who have a comp sci
> > > background tend to make better programmers than those who don't. The
> best
> > > Flash programmers I've met, personally, have comp sci backgrounds, for
> > what
> > > that's worth.
> > >
> > > Personally, I don't have that background, unfortunately, and I have
> > > certainly felt its absence at times; there are a bunch of things I've
> had
> > to
> > > learn the hard way as a result.
>
Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
But it sounds like you consider having a family or other committments
mutually exclusive to "passion" or even continued learning. My
definition of passion did not require neglecting family though
certainly after hours work is generally an indicator of passion.
Personally, I know of several programmers that have a wife and kids
and who dedicate time to them, that I would consider passionate
programmers, though our definitons may be diverging. Personally, I
consider being a well rounded person useful in the context of
developing software for human beings. And though, right now I am
chained to my computer in a crunch to release a product, I dont
consider "having a life" to be a detriment to being passionate about
anything - programming included.
Hank
On 9/18/06, Kevin Aebig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Just so we're clear, I don't mean they simply enjoy their jobs. I'm talking
about the guys who constantly learn, adapt and take their work home with
them on a regular basis. The guys who eat, breathe and sleep their jobs.
I've found that there are many guys fresh out of school who are like this
for the first 6 months to a year and than taper off. Than it's simply 9 to 5
and everything else is a waste.
If you know a lot of them, than you're living in a pretty unique place
compared to where I'm from. I'm pretty rigged into the industry here and
generally most of the guys couldn't even do that if they wanted to. They
have families or other commitments that infringe on their time.
Cheers,
!k
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hank
williams
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 9:27 AM
To: Flashcoders mailing list
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
Thats interesting. I dont know many computer programmers that arent
passionate - degree or not. Of course I am not a useful statistical
sample, but obviously have had a different life experience.
On 9/18/06, Kevin Aebig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Of course, but it's quite rare. I'm not saying all non-graduates are
> passionate about learning their trade either. More often than not being
> passionate about what you do for a living is pretty rare...
>
> !k
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hank
> williams
> Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 8:57 AM
> To: Flashcoders mailing list
> Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
>
> Are both not possible?
>
> On 9/18/06, Kevin Aebig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I hear what you mean, as that has bit me in the ass a few times. I
> honestly
> > believe though that the people who learn out of passion, instead of
> > requirement, end up with a better understanding in the end anyhow.
> >
> > !k
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave
Watts
> > Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 1:41 PM
> > To: Flashcoders mailing list
> > Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
> >
> > > Exactly, and I'm skeptical of anyone who requires a CompSci
> > > degree for a Flash position because there isn't a single
> > > college degree for Flash programming. ;)
> >
> > Comp Sci isn't about Flash programming, or Java programming, or {insert
> > language flavor of the week} programming. It's not even about
programming.
> > My personal observation, however, is that people who have a comp sci
> > background tend to make better programmers than those who don't. The
best
> > Flash programmers I've met, personally, have comp sci backgrounds, for
> what
> > that's worth.
> >
> > Personally, I don't have that background, unfortunately, and I have
> > certainly felt its absence at times; there are a bunch of things I've
had
> to
> > learn the hard way as a result.
> >
> > Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
> > http://www.figleaf.com/
> >
> > Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
> > instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
> > Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
> > Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
> > ___
> > Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> > To change your subscription options or search the archive:
> > http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
> >
> > Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software
> > Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training
> > http://www.figleaf.com
> > htt
RE: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
Just so we're clear, I don't mean they simply enjoy their jobs. I'm talking
about the guys who constantly learn, adapt and take their work home with
them on a regular basis. The guys who eat, breathe and sleep their jobs.
I've found that there are many guys fresh out of school who are like this
for the first 6 months to a year and than taper off. Than it's simply 9 to 5
and everything else is a waste.
If you know a lot of them, than you're living in a pretty unique place
compared to where I'm from. I'm pretty rigged into the industry here and
generally most of the guys couldn't even do that if they wanted to. They
have families or other commitments that infringe on their time.
Cheers,
!k
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hank
williams
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 9:27 AM
To: Flashcoders mailing list
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
Thats interesting. I dont know many computer programmers that arent
passionate - degree or not. Of course I am not a useful statistical
sample, but obviously have had a different life experience.
On 9/18/06, Kevin Aebig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Of course, but it's quite rare. I'm not saying all non-graduates are
> passionate about learning their trade either. More often than not being
> passionate about what you do for a living is pretty rare...
>
> !k
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hank
> williams
> Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 8:57 AM
> To: Flashcoders mailing list
> Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
>
> Are both not possible?
>
> On 9/18/06, Kevin Aebig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I hear what you mean, as that has bit me in the ass a few times. I
> honestly
> > believe though that the people who learn out of passion, instead of
> > requirement, end up with a better understanding in the end anyhow.
> >
> > !k
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave
Watts
> > Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 1:41 PM
> > To: Flashcoders mailing list
> > Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
> >
> > > Exactly, and I'm skeptical of anyone who requires a CompSci
> > > degree for a Flash position because there isn't a single
> > > college degree for Flash programming. ;)
> >
> > Comp Sci isn't about Flash programming, or Java programming, or {insert
> > language flavor of the week} programming. It's not even about
programming.
> > My personal observation, however, is that people who have a comp sci
> > background tend to make better programmers than those who don't. The
best
> > Flash programmers I've met, personally, have comp sci backgrounds, for
> what
> > that's worth.
> >
> > Personally, I don't have that background, unfortunately, and I have
> > certainly felt its absence at times; there are a bunch of things I've
had
> to
> > learn the hard way as a result.
> >
> > Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
> > http://www.figleaf.com/
> >
> > Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
> > instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
> > Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
> > Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
> > ___
> > Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> > To change your subscription options or search the archive:
> > http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
> >
> > Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software
> > Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training
> > http://www.figleaf.com
> > http://training.figleaf.com
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> > To change your subscription options or search the archive:
> > http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
> >
> > Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software
> > Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training
> > http://www.figleaf.com
> > http://training.figleaf.com
> >
> ___
> Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> To change your subscription options or search the archive:
> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
>
> Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software
> Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training
> http://www.figleaf.com
> http://training.figl
Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
Thats interesting. I dont know many computer programmers that arent
passionate - degree or not. Of course I am not a useful statistical
sample, but obviously have had a different life experience.
On 9/18/06, Kevin Aebig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Of course, but it's quite rare. I'm not saying all non-graduates are
passionate about learning their trade either. More often than not being
passionate about what you do for a living is pretty rare...
!k
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hank
williams
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 8:57 AM
To: Flashcoders mailing list
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
Are both not possible?
On 9/18/06, Kevin Aebig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I hear what you mean, as that has bit me in the ass a few times. I
honestly
> believe though that the people who learn out of passion, instead of
> requirement, end up with a better understanding in the end anyhow.
>
> !k
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Watts
> Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 1:41 PM
> To: Flashcoders mailing list
> Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
>
> > Exactly, and I'm skeptical of anyone who requires a CompSci
> > degree for a Flash position because there isn't a single
> > college degree for Flash programming. ;)
>
> Comp Sci isn't about Flash programming, or Java programming, or {insert
> language flavor of the week} programming. It's not even about programming.
> My personal observation, however, is that people who have a comp sci
> background tend to make better programmers than those who don't. The best
> Flash programmers I've met, personally, have comp sci backgrounds, for
what
> that's worth.
>
> Personally, I don't have that background, unfortunately, and I have
> certainly felt its absence at times; there are a bunch of things I've had
to
> learn the hard way as a result.
>
> Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
> http://www.figleaf.com/
>
> Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
> instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
> Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
> Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
> ___
> Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> To change your subscription options or search the archive:
> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
>
> Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software
> Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training
> http://www.figleaf.com
> http://training.figleaf.com
>
>
> ___
> Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> To change your subscription options or search the archive:
> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
>
> Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software
> Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training
> http://www.figleaf.com
> http://training.figleaf.com
>
___
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RE: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
Of course, but it's quite rare. I'm not saying all non-graduates are
passionate about learning their trade either. More often than not being
passionate about what you do for a living is pretty rare...
!k
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hank
williams
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 8:57 AM
To: Flashcoders mailing list
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
Are both not possible?
On 9/18/06, Kevin Aebig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I hear what you mean, as that has bit me in the ass a few times. I
honestly
> believe though that the people who learn out of passion, instead of
> requirement, end up with a better understanding in the end anyhow.
>
> !k
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Watts
> Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 1:41 PM
> To: Flashcoders mailing list
> Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
>
> > Exactly, and I'm skeptical of anyone who requires a CompSci
> > degree for a Flash position because there isn't a single
> > college degree for Flash programming. ;)
>
> Comp Sci isn't about Flash programming, or Java programming, or {insert
> language flavor of the week} programming. It's not even about programming.
> My personal observation, however, is that people who have a comp sci
> background tend to make better programmers than those who don't. The best
> Flash programmers I've met, personally, have comp sci backgrounds, for
what
> that's worth.
>
> Personally, I don't have that background, unfortunately, and I have
> certainly felt its absence at times; there are a bunch of things I've had
to
> learn the hard way as a result.
>
> Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
> http://www.figleaf.com/
>
> Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
> instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
> Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
> Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
> ___
> Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> To change your subscription options or search the archive:
> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
>
> Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software
> Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training
> http://www.figleaf.com
> http://training.figleaf.com
>
>
> ___
> Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> To change your subscription options or search the archive:
> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
>
> Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software
> Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training
> http://www.figleaf.com
> http://training.figleaf.com
>
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Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
LOLOLOLOL "Is this because their job will be fixing someone else's 5 year old spaghetti code? Then the kicker is that this person must be in the Detroit area or willing to relocate." Just had to laugh, that was hilarious On 9/15/06, hank williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I am all for job postings, but I gotta tell ya, sometimes they just say silly things. 4 years developing flash. must know AS1 and AS2 Software development person (programmed before flash I presume) Background in other languages and systems Familiarity with design patterns Good understanding of basic database issues Not a position for an artist or designer. Must be willing to relocate to Detroit area. Ok, first of all, most people who have been doing flash for 4+ years are artists or designers. Almost no serious programming was even possible in flash before AS2 so by defining 4 years you are essentially insisting that someone *not* be someone who "has a background in other languages and systems". I'm not saying they don't exist at all, but it is such a silly requirement because it inappropriately limits the pool. Of course insisting that someone be an expert in AS1 is even more silly. Is this because their job will be fixing someone else's 5 year old spaghetti code? Then the kicker is that this person must be in the Detroit area or willing to relocate. So in my mind, they are looking for the tiny pool of people that studied computer science but were also interested in animation and so dabbled in flash before it was "real programmer ready" and are willing to move to one of the most depressed metropolitan areas in the US. And I bet they wanna pay like 70-80k. Why cant people write intelligent job specs. Oh and by the way I am not looking for a job I just find this annoying that neither I nor any of the excellent programmers I know (and I know quite a few) would qualify for this job. I really wonder where some of these job specs come from. Hank On 9/15/06, swfer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > iDashboards is one of the hottest software companies within Business > Intelligence dashboards (www.iDashboards.com). Our customers include > NASA, US Navy, Lockheed Martin, Johnson Controls and GE. We have an > immediate position for a Senior Flash Developer with 4+ years of > experience. > > If being part of a leading edge and innovative software company > excites you, we have an excellent opportunity. We are seeking an > experienced Software Developer who has a strong background in > Flash/ActionScript. This is not a position for a Flash > artist/designer, but for a software development person. Must have a > thorough understanding of ActionScript 1 and 2, and how to write > efficient code. Should have a background in other programming > languages and systems as well. Should be comfortable with > multi-person development projects, and working with other people's > code. > > Must be reasonably well-versed in object-oriented software. Needs an > understanding of XML, and its interface to ActionScript. Should be > familiar with SQL and have a good understanding of basic database > issues. Familiarity with design patterns is a plus, as is an > understanding of user interfaces. > > OPPORTUNITY > You will be part of our world-class Software Team: > - Develop cutting edge enhancements to the existing software > - Work with other Flash developers and Server-side Development team > > REQUIREMENTS > - Must have 4+ years experience in Flash/ActionScript and object > oriented programming > - Must have developed database driven rich-media Flash applications with XML > - BS degree preferred and good work references > > The compensation plan is lucrative with a competitive base salary, > bonus and stock options. The company also offers excellent medical > and dental coverage along with 401K. > > Please email your resume & a cover letter addressing your > qualifications. Qualified candidates must demonstrate verifiable > references to be considered. Email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > We will consider exceptionally qualified candidates from any where > within the US or Canada who are willing to relocate to Detroit > region. Our office is located in Troy, MI. > ___ > Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com > To change your subscription options or search the archive: > http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders > > Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software > Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training > http://www.figleaf.com > http://training.figleaf.com > ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com -- [ JPG ] ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscriptio
Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
Are both not possible?
On 9/18/06, Kevin Aebig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I hear what you mean, as that has bit me in the ass a few times. I honestly
believe though that the people who learn out of passion, instead of
requirement, end up with a better understanding in the end anyhow.
!k
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Watts
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 1:41 PM
To: Flashcoders mailing list
Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
> Exactly, and I'm skeptical of anyone who requires a CompSci
> degree for a Flash position because there isn't a single
> college degree for Flash programming. ;)
Comp Sci isn't about Flash programming, or Java programming, or {insert
language flavor of the week} programming. It's not even about programming.
My personal observation, however, is that people who have a comp sci
background tend to make better programmers than those who don't. The best
Flash programmers I've met, personally, have comp sci backgrounds, for what
that's worth.
Personally, I don't have that background, unfortunately, and I have
certainly felt its absence at times; there are a bunch of things I've had to
learn the hard way as a result.
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
___
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
To change your subscription options or search the archive:
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software
Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training
http://www.figleaf.com
http://training.figleaf.com
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RE: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
I hear what you mean, as that has bit me in the ass a few times. I honestly
believe though that the people who learn out of passion, instead of
requirement, end up with a better understanding in the end anyhow.
!k
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Watts
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 1:41 PM
To: Flashcoders mailing list
Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
> Exactly, and I'm skeptical of anyone who requires a CompSci
> degree for a Flash position because there isn't a single
> college degree for Flash programming. ;)
Comp Sci isn't about Flash programming, or Java programming, or {insert
language flavor of the week} programming. It's not even about programming.
My personal observation, however, is that people who have a comp sci
background tend to make better programmers than those who don't. The best
Flash programmers I've met, personally, have comp sci backgrounds, for what
that's worth.
Personally, I don't have that background, unfortunately, and I have
certainly felt its absence at times; there are a bunch of things I've had to
learn the hard way as a result.
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
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Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
I am in a somewhat unique position to comment on this topic. Over the last 4 years, I have been pursuing a career in Flash programming (mostly full time) and I have also been taking courses toward a 2nd Bachelors degree in Computer Science, which I hope to finish up in the Spring. (My original undergrad degree was in History.) I spent a number of years teaching myself how to program, but at a certain point I felt like I needed the structure and motivation of a CS program to help me fill in the gaps. There were certain topics that were too tough to teach myself. A really great professor can make a huge difference by communicating a difficult subjects. For example, I don't think I every would have had the motivation to teach myself assembly language, computer architecture, prolog, compiler design, or linear algebra. There are no "Head First" books that effectively cover these topics. And the artificial motivation of homeworks and exams, while often tedious, is also critical. School gives you a breadth of knowledge that is very difficult to acquire in a regular job, where you're usually working on the same codebase, on the same platform, in the same language. School allows you to explore various ideas and approaches, and to experiment. Most businesses (except maybe Google) can't afford to give their employees this amount of freedom to explore their personal interests. School does not make you a great coder -- mainly coding skills come from practice -- but school does give you a better context to think about problems at a high level. For me, the experience of studying and working at the same time has been intense and challenging, but also incredibly rewarding. Taking an abstract concept I learned in class, and then applying it to solve a real business problem on a project at work -- sometimes in the same day -- has been a great feeling. I don't mean to denigrate anyone who's come into this Flash Development from other directions. One of the great strengths of the Flash community is its diversity due to the fact that every persons' journey into the platform has been unique. I just wanted to share my experience, and to encourage anyone who's thinking about taking some classes. ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
My explanation of the difference between someone with a CompSci
background and one who does not goes as follows:
"The computer science background gives one a high plateau to build on.
This is in contrast to talented people who have been dragged into this
world, who may have very high peaks of knowledge in their chosen areas
but often find that there is a deep sea between their mountains."
This makes it harder for them to deal with problems that touch many
areas at once. For example, an application with a 3 tier architecture
might take them a bit longer to understand than a person with a computer
science degree would take. However, once they have done one, they are
going to be in good shape and likely much better than a person with a
degree that has never done one.
I have an undergraduate degree and a masters, both in Computer Science,
but I frequently defer to my lead developer who has a degree in Fine
Arts and had done practically no programming before I dragged him over
to the dark side. He has a lot more practical experience in Flash than I
have, even though he has done all of it working for me. To go back to
the original analogy, my task is to help him build bridges between where
we need to have the mountains and to look after all the other areas
where it is not worthwhile for him to build his level of expertise up to
water level.
A good computer science degree should make it easy to move between
languages, between technologies and between application areas. And it is
a good thing too - history shows that if you think that you will be able
to make a living 10 years from now using the language that you currently
use, you are in for a shock.
Ron
Dave Watts wrote:
Exactly, and I'm skeptical of anyone who requires a CompSci
degree for a Flash position because there isn't a single
college degree for Flash programming. ;)
Comp Sci isn't about Flash programming, or Java programming, or {insert
language flavor of the week} programming. It's not even about programming.
My personal observation, however, is that people who have a comp sci
background tend to make better programmers than those who don't. The best
Flash programmers I've met, personally, have comp sci backgrounds, for what
that's worth.
Personally, I don't have that background, unfortunately, and I have
certainly felt its absence at times; there are a bunch of things I've had to
learn the hard way as a result.
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
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RE: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
> Exactly, and I'm skeptical of anyone who requires a CompSci
> degree for a Flash position because there isn't a single
> college degree for Flash programming. ;)
Comp Sci isn't about Flash programming, or Java programming, or {insert
language flavor of the week} programming. It's not even about programming.
My personal observation, however, is that people who have a comp sci
background tend to make better programmers than those who don't. The best
Flash programmers I've met, personally, have comp sci backgrounds, for what
that's worth.
Personally, I don't have that background, unfortunately, and I have
certainly felt its absence at times; there are a bunch of things I've had to
learn the hard way as a result.
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
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Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
On 9/15/06, Jason Rayles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hank, you don't know what you are talking about. You may be late to the party, but that doesn't mean that everyone was. There are a lot of people (not billions, but a good number) Ah yes, "a good number". Is that somewhere between zero and 100 million? who meet/exceed YOUR requirements who were working in Flash before AS 2 was an option. Seriously, why do you think this list exists? Oh, I forgot, it takes like zillions of people before you can get a list going. Cant argue with that. Why do you think AS 2 exists? Maybe the people in your "flash programming study group in New York City" are there to learn from people like you, and the dozens of Flash programmers with comp sci backgrounds in NYC don't attend your meetings because your meetings are beneath them. Nah. I have zero interest in moving to Troy, MI, but those job requirements are not unreasonable. You're right. Not if you are uninterested in filling the position. I would love to hear one person who is "qualified" say they are submitting a resume and would take the job if offered. You havent said you think you are qualified, but presuming for the sake of argument you are, you have proved my point by saying that you arent interested. Regards, Hank Hank ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
Hank, you don't know what you are talking about. You may be late to the party, but that doesn't mean that everyone was. There are a lot of people (not billions, but a good number) who meet/exceed YOUR requirements who were working in Flash before AS 2 was an option. Seriously, why do you think this list exists? Why do you think AS 2 exists? Maybe the people in your "flash programming study group in New York City" are there to learn from people like you, and the dozens of Flash programmers with comp sci backgrounds in NYC don't attend your meetings because your meetings are beneath them. I have zero interest in moving to Troy, MI, but those job requirements are not unreasonable. Jason On Sep 15, 2006, at 4:01 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Again it doesnt mean there arent any. It just means there arent *many*. I am a member of a flash programming study group in New York City. And I havent yet met in our group a single other Flash programmer with a comp sci background. (at least I dont think so - If I have dont and you are him, please dont be insulted :) ). ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
And we wonder why this is happening, lol. Hell, I would do an active of public (and self) service by teaching but that is a crazy cut in pay. sigh. On 9/15/06 3:28 PM, "Steven Sacks | BLITZ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Exactly, and I'm skeptical of anyone who requires a CompSci degree for a > Flash position because there isn't a single college degree for Flash > programming. ;) > > ___ > Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com > To change your subscription options or search the archive: > http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders > > Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software > Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training > http://www.figleaf.com > http://training.figleaf.com -- Aaron Buchanan | Flash Developer, Lab-Media | T 909 702 1368 ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
Exactly, and I'm skeptical of anyone who requires a CompSci degree for a Flash position because there isn't a single college degree for Flash programming. ;) ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
There is a huge demand for Flash programmers, particularly in Internet advertising. Talented people can do great knowing no other language, and most employers would prioritize ability and experience over degrees. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Sacks | BLITZ Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 3:05 PM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position Oops. I used "you" again when I meant "one". I wasn't referring to you and your degree, Hank. I was referring in general to needing a programming degree be considered a serious programmer, and that knowing a so-called "serious" programming language is preferable to a deeper knowledge of Flash when it comes to Flash development. I couldn't agree more with you on the point that there is a much smaller pool of qualified Flash programmers than other languages. There is a dearth of excellent Flash developers out there. ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
Steven, On 9/15/06, Steven Sacks | BLITZ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The fact that you can name the pioneers (and I know who they are) is > an indication of how small the group is. A few hundred, heck even a > few thousand, is a **VERY** small number. There are hundreds of > thousands (or perhaps millions) of people that are serious programmers > in Java that have been doing it for many years. Just because you've got a degree doesn't mean you know what you're doing. There are thousands of "serious" programmers out there with degrees that are just mediocre. That piece of paper doesn't mean what it used to. I dont mean to be rude, but er... what are you talking about. Please read carefully this time. To be fair, I dont think they said this. I used the term to describe the type of background they were describing. From my perspective it doesnt require a comp sci degree, though most people without a fairly disciplined background (self taught or otherwise) dont innately understand a lot of concepts. But I certainly dont think you need to sit in a classroom to learn this stuff. That list of names isn't just a list of Flash pioneers, but talented hard-working developers who continue to be some of the most influential people in the business. Some of them had no previous programming experience before Flash and now they're some of the best Flash developers in the world all without a piece of paper that says they sat in a classroom on some campus for years and without knowing so-called "real" programming languages. Saying AS1 isn't real programming is, IMO, unfair. Somebody programmed a graphic adventure game in Flash 3 with inventory, etc. using a turing-machine movieclip schema. It must have been quite a challenge to code but it indeed was programming, and probably smarter and better than many people who code in AS2 today are capable of. I am not saying that people who programmed in AS1 are stupid, and this has nothing to do with "fairness". The issue is whether, during the AS1 era there were a substantial number of "serious programmers." The answer is no. You can take that as a personal afront if you want but you dont need to. Its just statistics. It has taken a while to get flash established as a platform. Even now, the flash programmer numbers are weak relative to the market. The community is small. Back then 99.9% of what was done with flash was banners and intro pages. Ok maybe 98%. So you can quote all you want about the cool stuff in the other 2% but it doesnt change the obvious reality of where the flash world was in 2002. I don't have a CompSci degree. I only ever took one programming class; a one semester course for Director 3 at a community college taught by a guy who wanted me to do everything in the score because he didn't really understand Lingo. The rest I've learned by doing, reading and, luckily, being mentored. If an employer doesn't want me because I don't have a CompSci degree, it's their loss, not mine, because I know Flash better than many people who claim to be Flash developers out there simply because nobody told me what its limits or capabilities were, I found them out for myself in order to "make the impossible possible" for clients. :) Again please read before you write. It can be helpful. Just for clarity again from a prior message... To be fair, I dont think they said this. I used the term to describe the type of background they were describing. From my perspective it doesnt require a comp sci degree, though most people without a fairly disciplined background (self taught or otherwise) dont innately understand a lot of concepts. But I certainly dont think you need to sit in a classroom to learn this stuff. Jeez. Hank ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
Well said... !k -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Sacks | BLITZ Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 3:09 PM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position > The fact that you can name the pioneers (and I know who they are) is > an indication of how small the group is. A few hundred, heck even a > few thousand, is a **VERY** small number. There are hundreds of > thousands (or perhaps millions) of people that are serious programmers > in Java that have been doing it for many years. Just because you've got a degree doesn't mean you know what you're doing. There are thousands of "serious" programmers out there with degrees that are just mediocre. That piece of paper doesn't mean what it used to. That list of names isn't just a list of Flash pioneers, but talented hard-working developers who continue to be some of the most influential people in the business. Some of them had no previous programming experience before Flash and now they're some of the best Flash developers in the world all without a piece of paper that says they sat in a classroom on some campus for years and without knowing so-called "real" programming languages. Saying AS1 isn't real programming is, IMO, unfair. Somebody programmed a graphic adventure game in Flash 3 with inventory, etc. using a turing-machine movieclip schema. It must have been quite a challenge to code but it indeed was programming, and probably smarter and better than many people who code in AS2 today are capable of. I don't have a CompSci degree. I only ever took one programming class; a one semester course for Director 3 at a community college taught by a guy who wanted me to do everything in the score because he didn't really understand Lingo. The rest I've learned by doing, reading and, luckily, being mentored. If an employer doesn't want me because I don't have a CompSci degree, it's their loss, not mine, because I know Flash better than many people who claim to be Flash developers out there simply because nobody told me what its limits or capabilities were, I found them out for myself in order to "make the impossible possible" for clients. :) ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
> The fact that you can name the pioneers (and I know who they are) is > an indication of how small the group is. A few hundred, heck even a > few thousand, is a **VERY** small number. There are hundreds of > thousands (or perhaps millions) of people that are serious programmers > in Java that have been doing it for many years. Just because you've got a degree doesn't mean you know what you're doing. There are thousands of "serious" programmers out there with degrees that are just mediocre. That piece of paper doesn't mean what it used to. That list of names isn't just a list of Flash pioneers, but talented hard-working developers who continue to be some of the most influential people in the business. Some of them had no previous programming experience before Flash and now they're some of the best Flash developers in the world all without a piece of paper that says they sat in a classroom on some campus for years and without knowing so-called "real" programming languages. Saying AS1 isn't real programming is, IMO, unfair. Somebody programmed a graphic adventure game in Flash 3 with inventory, etc. using a turing-machine movieclip schema. It must have been quite a challenge to code but it indeed was programming, and probably smarter and better than many people who code in AS2 today are capable of. I don't have a CompSci degree. I only ever took one programming class; a one semester course for Director 3 at a community college taught by a guy who wanted me to do everything in the score because he didn't really understand Lingo. The rest I've learned by doing, reading and, luckily, being mentored. If an employer doesn't want me because I don't have a CompSci degree, it's their loss, not mine, because I know Flash better than many people who claim to be Flash developers out there simply because nobody told me what its limits or capabilities were, I found them out for myself in order to "make the impossible possible" for clients. :) ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
On 9/15/06, Aaron Buchanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: You guys haven't seen zombo.com, have you? That is hilarious! Hank ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
Claus, Grant, Dave, Samuel, Jesse, Brandon etc. have been on this list since I first joined up 6 or 7 years ago and posted several examples of applications over the years to demonstrate the abilities of Flash. Heck even I did a single large app with Flash 4 (Whatta pain!), 4 more with Flash 5, and than a ton since with every other version... The fact that you can name the pioneers (and I know who they are) is an indication of how small the group is. A few hundred, heck even a few thousand, is a **VERY** small number. There are hundreds of thousands (or perhaps millions) of people that are serious programmers in Java that have been doing it for many years. The one thing that I do find somewhat laughable is the necessity to state that a CompSci background is important. For all intents and purposes, by education I'm a designer. I spent a considerable amount of time and money teaching myself programming theories and best practices. To say that I'm unqualified is somewhat insulting considering the effort it took and the passion it shows. To be fair, I dont think they said this. I used the term to describe the type of background they were describing. From my perspective it doesnt require a comp sci degree, though most people without a fairly disciplined background (self taught or otherwise) dont innately understand a lot of concepts. But I certainly dont think you need to sit in a classroom to learn this stuff. Regards, Hank ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
You guys haven't seen zombo.com, have you? On 9/15/06 12:57 PM, "Kevin Aebig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I understand what you mean in regards to AS2 application development. Until > MX 2004, Flash as a common mainstream application was pretty unheard of by > the general public. That's not to say it didn't happen though... > > I definitely disagree with the first thing you mentioned about there not > being a lot of guys who used Flash as an application platform before AS2. I > can look at a lot of guys on this list who've been here for a long time and > helped pave the way for the modern Flash Platform. > > Claus, Grant, Dave, Samuel, Jesse, Brandon etc. have been on this list since > I first joined up 6 or 7 years ago and posted several examples of > applications over the years to demonstrate the abilities of Flash. Heck even > I did a single large app with Flash 4 (Whatta pain!), 4 more with Flash 5, > and than a ton since with every other version... > > The one thing that I do find somewhat laughable is the necessity to state > that a CompSci background is important. For all intents and purposes, by > education I'm a designer. I spent a considerable amount of time and money > teaching myself programming theories and best practices. To say that I'm > unqualified is somewhat insulting considering the effort it took and the > passion it shows. > > Cheers, > > !k > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hank > williams > Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 11:58 AM > To: Flashcoders mailing list > Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position > > I am all for job postings, but I gotta tell ya, sometimes they just > say silly things. > > 4 years developing flash. > must know AS1 and AS2 > Software development person (programmed before flash I presume) > Background in other languages and systems > Familiarity with design patterns > Good understanding of basic database issues > Not a position for an artist or designer. > Must be willing to relocate to Detroit area. > > Ok, first of all, most people who have been doing flash for 4+ years > are artists or designers. Almost no serious programming was even > possible in flash before AS2 so by defining 4 years you are > essentially insisting that someone *not* be someone who "has a > background in other languages and systems". I'm not saying they don't > exist at all, but it is such a silly requirement because it > inappropriately limits the pool. Of course insisting that someone be > an expert in AS1 is even more silly. Is this because their job will be > fixing someone else's 5 year old spaghetti code? Then the kicker is > that this person must be in the Detroit area or willing to relocate. > > So in my mind, they are looking for the tiny pool of people that > studied computer science but were also interested in animation and so > dabbled in flash before it was "real programmer ready" and are willing > to move to one of the most depressed metropolitan areas in the US. And > I bet they wanna pay like 70-80k. Why cant people write intelligent > job specs. Oh and by the way I am not looking for a job I just find > this annoying that neither I nor any of the excellent programmers I > know (and I know quite a few) would qualify for this job. > > I really wonder where some of these job specs come from. > > Hank > > > On 9/15/06, swfer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> iDashboards is one of the hottest software companies within Business >> Intelligence dashboards (www.iDashboards.com). Our customers include >> NASA, US Navy, Lockheed Martin, Johnson Controls and GE. We have an >> immediate position for a Senior Flash Developer with 4+ years of >> experience. >> >> If being part of a leading edge and innovative software company >> excites you, we have an excellent opportunity. We are seeking an >> experienced Software Developer who has a strong background in >> Flash/ActionScript. This is not a position for a Flash >> artist/designer, but for a software development person. Must have a >> thorough understanding of ActionScript 1 and 2, and how to write >> efficient code. Should have a background in other programming >> languages and systems as well. Should be comfortable with >> multi-person development projects, and working with other people's >> code. >> >> Must be reasonably well-versed in object-oriented software. Needs an >> understanding of XML, and its interface to ActionScript. Should be >> familiar with SQL and have a good understanding of basic database
RE: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
I understand what you mean in regards to AS2 application development. Until MX 2004, Flash as a common mainstream application was pretty unheard of by the general public. That's not to say it didn't happen though... I definitely disagree with the first thing you mentioned about there not being a lot of guys who used Flash as an application platform before AS2. I can look at a lot of guys on this list who've been here for a long time and helped pave the way for the modern Flash Platform. Claus, Grant, Dave, Samuel, Jesse, Brandon etc. have been on this list since I first joined up 6 or 7 years ago and posted several examples of applications over the years to demonstrate the abilities of Flash. Heck even I did a single large app with Flash 4 (Whatta pain!), 4 more with Flash 5, and than a ton since with every other version... The one thing that I do find somewhat laughable is the necessity to state that a CompSci background is important. For all intents and purposes, by education I'm a designer. I spent a considerable amount of time and money teaching myself programming theories and best practices. To say that I'm unqualified is somewhat insulting considering the effort it took and the passion it shows. Cheers, !k -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hank williams Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 11:58 AM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position I am all for job postings, but I gotta tell ya, sometimes they just say silly things. 4 years developing flash. must know AS1 and AS2 Software development person (programmed before flash I presume) Background in other languages and systems Familiarity with design patterns Good understanding of basic database issues Not a position for an artist or designer. Must be willing to relocate to Detroit area. Ok, first of all, most people who have been doing flash for 4+ years are artists or designers. Almost no serious programming was even possible in flash before AS2 so by defining 4 years you are essentially insisting that someone *not* be someone who "has a background in other languages and systems". I'm not saying they don't exist at all, but it is such a silly requirement because it inappropriately limits the pool. Of course insisting that someone be an expert in AS1 is even more silly. Is this because their job will be fixing someone else's 5 year old spaghetti code? Then the kicker is that this person must be in the Detroit area or willing to relocate. So in my mind, they are looking for the tiny pool of people that studied computer science but were also interested in animation and so dabbled in flash before it was "real programmer ready" and are willing to move to one of the most depressed metropolitan areas in the US. And I bet they wanna pay like 70-80k. Why cant people write intelligent job specs. Oh and by the way I am not looking for a job I just find this annoying that neither I nor any of the excellent programmers I know (and I know quite a few) would qualify for this job. I really wonder where some of these job specs come from. Hank On 9/15/06, swfer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > iDashboards is one of the hottest software companies within Business > Intelligence dashboards (www.iDashboards.com). Our customers include > NASA, US Navy, Lockheed Martin, Johnson Controls and GE. We have an > immediate position for a Senior Flash Developer with 4+ years of > experience. > > If being part of a leading edge and innovative software company > excites you, we have an excellent opportunity. We are seeking an > experienced Software Developer who has a strong background in > Flash/ActionScript. This is not a position for a Flash > artist/designer, but for a software development person. Must have a > thorough understanding of ActionScript 1 and 2, and how to write > efficient code. Should have a background in other programming > languages and systems as well. Should be comfortable with > multi-person development projects, and working with other people's > code. > > Must be reasonably well-versed in object-oriented software. Needs an > understanding of XML, and its interface to ActionScript. Should be > familiar with SQL and have a good understanding of basic database > issues. Familiarity with design patterns is a plus, as is an > understanding of user interfaces. > > OPPORTUNITY > You will be part of our world-class Software Team: > - Develop cutting edge enhancements to the existing software > - Work with other Flash developers and Server-side Development team > > REQUIREMENTS > - Must have 4+ years experience in Flash/ActionScript and object > oriented programming > - Must have developed database driven rich-media Flash applications with XML > - BS degree preferred and good work referenc
Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
I built an entire suite of lead generation and call center applications for a mortgage company in Flash MX using AS 1around 5 years ago which was used on a daily basis by around 100+ employees. I'd say that took some serious programming and a real world app on a fairly large scale! Ok, look, anyone can provide *one* example of anything, but one, or even a handful does not disprove the rule. People wrote accounting systems in Basic on S-100 computers in the 70's too. I wrote assembler in the 80's for commercial products. So anything is *possible*. But the fact is that the whole reason Flex exists is that Adobe couldnt get much real software development going with flash. And even now, though it is much better, there is still a dearth of comp sci educated flash programmers. And most people that have been programming in flash 4+ years dont have a comp sci/structured programming background. Again it doesnt mean there arent any. It just means there arent *many*. I am a member of a flash programming study group in New York City. And I havent yet met in our group a single other Flash programmer with a comp sci background. (at least I dont think so - If I have dont and you are him, please dont be insulted :) ). Regards Hank ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
"Ok, first of all, most people who have been doing flash for 4+ years are artists or designers. Almost no serious programming was even possible in flash before AS2 so by defining 4 years" I built an entire suite of lead generation and call center applications for a mortgage company in Flash MX using AS 1around 5 years ago which was used on a daily basis by around 100+ employees. I'd say that took some serious programming and a real world app on a fairly large scale! Even before that I built a lighter version in Flash 5 which was pretty robust, there were no components so I had to hack a datagrid of sorts but it did the job at the time, and if you want to go even further back in the time machine, I did a working prototype of a web-based POS system which was fully functional in Flash 4 Using a lot of eval statements, tellTarget . etc. I must admit it really was a pain in the butt! >From all the job postings I see on this list, this one is not really off the >mark with the requirements. Farid - Original Message From: hank williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Flashcoders mailing list Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 1:58:07 PM Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position I am all for job postings, but I gotta tell ya, sometimes they just say silly things. 4 years developing flash. must know AS1 and AS2 Software development person (programmed before flash I presume) Background in other languages and systems Familiarity with design patterns Good understanding of basic database issues Not a position for an artist or designer. Must be willing to relocate to Detroit area. Ok, first of all, most people who have been doing flash for 4+ years are artists or designers. Almost no serious programming was even possible in flash before AS2 so by defining 4 years you are essentially insisting that someone *not* be someone who "has a background in other languages and systems". I'm not saying they don't exist at all, but it is such a silly requirement because it inappropriately limits the pool. Of course insisting that someone be an expert in AS1 is even more silly. Is this because their job will be fixing someone else's 5 year old spaghetti code? Then the kicker is that this person must be in the Detroit area or willing to relocate. So in my mind, they are looking for the tiny pool of people that studied computer science but were also interested in animation and so dabbled in flash before it was "real programmer ready" and are willing to move to one of the most depressed metropolitan areas in the US. And I bet they wanna pay like 70-80k. Why cant people write intelligent job specs. Oh and by the way I am not looking for a job I just find this annoying that neither I nor any of the excellent programmers I know (and I know quite a few) would qualify for this job. I really wonder where some of these job specs come from. Hank On 9/15/06, swfer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > iDashboards is one of the hottest software companies within Business > Intelligence dashboards (www.iDashboards.com). Our customers include > NASA, US Navy, Lockheed Martin, Johnson Controls and GE. We have an > immediate position for a Senior Flash Developer with 4+ years of > experience. > > If being part of a leading edge and innovative software company > excites you, we have an excellent opportunity. We are seeking an > experienced Software Developer who has a strong background in > Flash/ActionScript. This is not a position for a Flash > artist/designer, but for a software development person. Must have a > thorough understanding of ActionScript 1 and 2, and how to write > efficient code. Should have a background in other programming > languages and systems as well. Should be comfortable with > multi-person development projects, and working with other people's > code. > > Must be reasonably well-versed in object-oriented software. Needs an > understanding of XML, and its interface to ActionScript. Should be > familiar with SQL and have a good understanding of basic database > issues. Familiarity with design patterns is a plus, as is an > understanding of user interfaces. > > OPPORTUNITY > You will be part of our world-class Software Team: > - Develop cutting edge enhancements to the existing software > - Work with other Flash developers and Server-side Development team > > REQUIREMENTS > - Must have 4+ years experience in Flash/ActionScript and object > oriented programming > - Must have developed database driven rich-media Flash applications with XML > - BS degree preferred and good work references > > The compensation plan is lucrative with a competitive base salary, > bonus and stock options. The company also offers excellent medical > and dental coverage along with 401K. > > Please email your resume & a cover
Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
I didnt say there werent any... but you are not exactly...er... mainstream. As for your knowing *lots* of people, I suspect, having been around as long as you have, you know *all* of them :) I'm only half kidding here. before AS2 there were not exactly a bunch of people that fit this spec and in such a small community of people they will likely know each other. If you are looking for one of the what I suspect is few hundred people who have your qualifications and then you want to move them to detroit you better be paying at *TON* of money. When you have such narrow requirements, recruiting is a *nightmare*. (This is not just conjecture). The funny thing is I would rather have a guy with 10 years of C++ with some Java and SQL thrown in, and two years of AS2, rather than 4 years of AS. But thats just me. Regards Hank On 9/15/06, Claus Wahlers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ok, first of all, most people who have been doing flash for 4+ years > are artists or designers. Almost no serious programming was even > possible in flash before AS2 so by defining 4 years you are > essentially insisting that someone *not* be someone who "has a > background in other languages and systems". I'm not saying they don't > exist at all, but it is such a silly requirement because it > inappropriately limits the pool. Of course insisting that someone be > an expert in AS1 is even more silly. Is this because their job will be > fixing someone else's 5 year old spaghetti code? Then the kicker is > that this person must be in the Detroit area or willing to relocate. I have a software developer background (mainly C/C++), was studying CS in university, and am doing Flash development for like six years now (that includes well structured OOP AS1 development). I know a bunch of people that are equally qualified. I honestly don't think they are *that* off with their requirements. They could have put that Detroit (or US/Canada) requirement in the subject though.. ;) (This is my first and last comment re: job postings on this list. Keep 'em coming, i don't mind) -- claus wahlers côdeazur brasil http://codeazur.com.br ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
Ok, first of all, most people who have been doing flash for 4+ years are artists or designers. Almost no serious programming was even possible in flash before AS2 so by defining 4 years you are essentially insisting that someone *not* be someone who "has a background in other languages and systems". I'm not saying they don't exist at all, but it is such a silly requirement because it inappropriately limits the pool. Of course insisting that someone be an expert in AS1 is even more silly. Is this because their job will be fixing someone else's 5 year old spaghetti code? Then the kicker is that this person must be in the Detroit area or willing to relocate. I have a software developer background (mainly C/C++), was studying CS in university, and am doing Flash development for like six years now (that includes well structured OOP AS1 development). I know a bunch of people that are equally qualified. I honestly don't think they are *that* off with their requirements. They could have put that Detroit (or US/Canada) requirement in the subject though.. ;) (This is my first and last comment re: job postings on this list. Keep 'em coming, i don't mind) -- claus wahlers côdeazur brasil http://codeazur.com.br ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Software Development Position
I am all for job postings, but I gotta tell ya, sometimes they just say silly things. 4 years developing flash. must know AS1 and AS2 Software development person (programmed before flash I presume) Background in other languages and systems Familiarity with design patterns Good understanding of basic database issues Not a position for an artist or designer. Must be willing to relocate to Detroit area. Ok, first of all, most people who have been doing flash for 4+ years are artists or designers. Almost no serious programming was even possible in flash before AS2 so by defining 4 years you are essentially insisting that someone *not* be someone who "has a background in other languages and systems". I'm not saying they don't exist at all, but it is such a silly requirement because it inappropriately limits the pool. Of course insisting that someone be an expert in AS1 is even more silly. Is this because their job will be fixing someone else's 5 year old spaghetti code? Then the kicker is that this person must be in the Detroit area or willing to relocate. So in my mind, they are looking for the tiny pool of people that studied computer science but were also interested in animation and so dabbled in flash before it was "real programmer ready" and are willing to move to one of the most depressed metropolitan areas in the US. And I bet they wanna pay like 70-80k. Why cant people write intelligent job specs. Oh and by the way I am not looking for a job I just find this annoying that neither I nor any of the excellent programmers I know (and I know quite a few) would qualify for this job. I really wonder where some of these job specs come from. Hank On 9/15/06, swfer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: iDashboards is one of the hottest software companies within Business Intelligence dashboards (www.iDashboards.com). Our customers include NASA, US Navy, Lockheed Martin, Johnson Controls and GE. We have an immediate position for a Senior Flash Developer with 4+ years of experience. If being part of a leading edge and innovative software company excites you, we have an excellent opportunity. We are seeking an experienced Software Developer who has a strong background in Flash/ActionScript. This is not a position for a Flash artist/designer, but for a software development person. Must have a thorough understanding of ActionScript 1 and 2, and how to write efficient code. Should have a background in other programming languages and systems as well. Should be comfortable with multi-person development projects, and working with other people's code. Must be reasonably well-versed in object-oriented software. Needs an understanding of XML, and its interface to ActionScript. Should be familiar with SQL and have a good understanding of basic database issues. Familiarity with design patterns is a plus, as is an understanding of user interfaces. OPPORTUNITY You will be part of our world-class Software Team: - Develop cutting edge enhancements to the existing software - Work with other Flash developers and Server-side Development team REQUIREMENTS - Must have 4+ years experience in Flash/ActionScript and object oriented programming - Must have developed database driven rich-media Flash applications with XML - BS degree preferred and good work references The compensation plan is lucrative with a competitive base salary, bonus and stock options. The company also offers excellent medical and dental coverage along with 401K. Please email your resume & a cover letter addressing your qualifications. Qualified candidates must demonstrate verifiable references to be considered. Email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] We will consider exceptionally qualified candidates from any where within the US or Canada who are willing to relocate to Detroit region. Our office is located in Troy, MI. ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
