Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Gene Buckle]

On Fri, 26 Mar 2010, Roland Haeder wrote:

> But like Curt stated before: This has a very big downside, like every
> medal has (remember, medals have two sides...) a backside. :( And that
> one is also very clear: Do we, no better does Curt want to put his
> project into the hand of Google who offers a proprietary website engine?
>
What part of "Pete's example website does NOT REQUIRE Google" is unclear?

g.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Pete Morgan]

Roland Haeder wrote:
> They (Drupal/WordPress are good examples) really have a lot holes, just
> checkout www.securityfocus.com and they brothers (not the whistle-blower
> websites).
>   
Were agreeing that some applications are badly coded.

Thats why I prefer to steer clear of apps; unless their evaluated 
properly, notably with interpolation.

Anyway web coding is simple, and a muppet can do it it like me. (unlike 
creating shaders and wtf gl/osg/etc)
> If you know these script-kiddies who "needs" to take over 500 servers in
> the Internet because their teacher was to rude to them and
> www.flightgear.org is one of them, look even my little project got
> already attacked more than 900 times since 1st Jan this year... :( And
> hopefully all got stopped by my (already released and) patched security
> software "Cracker Tracker Standalone".
>   
You must have done something to achieve that? probably not. I looked at 
my server logs the other evening and there were 5000+ attempts to login 
as root on ssh over a period. Some bot running somewhere...
> First my server needs more RAM, only 512 MB installed. ;) Second, I need
> more money to pay for it.
>   
You need to start selling FlightGear DVDs at £13.82 per shot. There's a 
good margin there ;-)
You might need to buy a t-shirt and cap first, to identify yourself 
before selling.

>> Get a life!!
>> the xhtml group is disbanded. Job is/was done and spec completed.
>> That current spec is html5;  that where its at, are you using a modern 
>> browser with css3..?
>> 
> Does Epiphany support it? Maybe, I don't know. :( But how many websites
> I regularly surf to has CSS 3? And HTML 5 is multi-media extended, XHTML
> is basicly a clean XML.
>
>   
ahem.. Epiphany is legacy as well..
but web .. its moving toward html5+css3.
Eg this site has rounded tabs depending on which level your on. 
http://sydhangar.daffodil.uk.com/


Roland:

Can you hack websites ie code them?

Please I would like some help with developing Fg 
websites..http://fg-www.appspot.com/ and http://fg-online.appspot.com/

If you can certainly take sites down and flood then it would be 
brilliant. Please help me make it Fail. and then learn how not to make 
it fail.

Code is here
http://github.com/ac001/FlightGear-AppEngine-Cloud

And you can run it on your local machine and crash that first before you 
do the same online ;-))

BTW, if you a graphic designer, then that would be brilliant. Am crap at 
graphics.

Any help u need them email me on on chat as ac001

> WTF is IE6??? A worm or trojan horse? ;-) And I also use FF 3 here. :)
>   
Yes IE6 is a worm and a trojan.
That's why the UK police force embarassingly and quickly retracted and 
dropped "Operation Ore" in the UK. It was too simple for script kiddie 
to hack a machine in front of a jury. Report from GOV.UK is LOCKED till 
2020. Not quite the definition of "free" and "state" together.

Pete




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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Roland Haeder]

> [...] hopefully all got stopped by my (already released and) patched security
> software "Cracker Tracker Standalone".
Oh, shame on me. That software is from www.cback.de, I have enhanced it
with logging into a MySQL database for analysis purposes. Just to make
this clear. :)


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Roland Haeder]

Hello Pete,

> Please clarify:
Okay, I give it a try. :-)

> What you are suggesting is that
> * php and python are a "cms"
I know they are never and should also never used as
"CMS" (Content-Management-System). Maybe it was a bit unclean here, I
mean real CMS' like Drupal,WordPress (can be used as CMS, too) and many
others.

> * and that they have security holes.
They (Drupal/WordPress are good examples) really have a lot holes, just
checkout www.securityfocus.com and they brothers (not the whistle-blower
websites).

> * This allow me to take over either the server itself
"Dynamic websites" could punch another hole into your server, you cannot
crack down static HTML pages itself, but maybe the server software
(Apache,Lighttpd,Tomcat,etc.).

Well, what I mean here is, Curt should be careful in choosing a "dynamic
website software" like all these CMS' are. They have pros and cons and a
big con is a no longer maintained project for example. And what if Curt
sleeps, that normally happens, and it was found out that the choosen
software has a security hole like remote-inclusion or SQL injection, if
it a database-driven software?

If you know these script-kiddies who "needs" to take over 500 servers in
the Internet because their teacher was to rude to them and
www.flightgear.org is one of them, look even my little project got
already attacked more than 900 times since 1st Jan this year... :( And
hopefully all got stopped by my (already released and) patched security
software "Cracker Tracker Standalone".

> * or change DNS entry
If he runs a buggy DNS server, yes. DNS poisoning could be a problem.

> * above is everyone's wish.
??? Maybe not. ;)

> Is thats the Google AppEngine then yes, but its the same as ANY host, 
> including the server under your bed, regarding security. What is the 
> safest place. When did you last change the lock's on you garden shed?
I'm not talking about physical security, that would be far to expensive
for me. :) I mean software security.

> Please explain more about this proprietary website engine?
> Do you work for Microsoft? That is my guess and I hope you are not using 
> ANYTHING proprietary browser to express upon.
No, I never worked for them. :) And I use free software here. Linux-only
since Dec. 1999. :D

> Also can you please host for free a "system" whereby I can hit it as 3 
> million a month == once a second, and accommodate a million of those 
> hits in one day = slashdot?
Nope, my "server" is not a cluster and I cannot host slashdot. :/

> 
> That means u need globally distributed with memcahe?
First my server needs more RAM, only 512 MB installed. ;) Second, I need
more money to pay for it.

>  NO you cant.. so stop talking about shit your don't understand, until 
> you've researched the problem more and also having actually experienced it.
I can feel glad that my server was never taken over, except since I use
that extra security software which is no bigger than an include file.
And I understand how many traffic Curt's server has to handle. That's
why I mirror some parts of "his" software on my server.

BTW: That minds me to mirror the f***ing big EXE file on my server...

> Get a life!!
> the xhtml group is disbanded. Job is/was done and spec completed.
> That current spec is html5;  that where its at, are you using a modern 
> browser with css3..?
Does Epiphany support it? Maybe, I don't know. :( But how many websites
I regularly surf to has CSS 3? And HTML 5 is multi-media extended, XHTML
is basicly a clean XML.

> please dump ie6 and netscape now and update to firefox or opera.
WTF is IE6??? A worm or trojan horse? ;-) And I also use FF 3 here. :)

Roland



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Pete Morgan]

Roland Haeder wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> the problem on those CMS systems (python-written and PHP-written
> likewise) is that they sometimes have security holes where a cracker can
> more or less easily "own" www.flightgear.org and put his "Owned by
> some-fool-cracker" message in there.
>   
Please clarify:
What you are suggesting is that
* php and python are a "cms"
* and that they have security holes.
* This allow me to take over either the server itself
* or change DNS entry
* above is everyone's wish.
> I think, this is why someone suggested that Google thing here because
> then Google needs to take care about such things as fixing security
> holes and installing updates. That is for sure a good reason to
> "outsource" hosting of your project.
>   
Is thats the Google AppEngine then yes, but its the same as ANY host, 
including the server under your bed, regarding security. What is the 
safest place. When did you last change the lock's on you garden shed?
> But like Curt stated before: This has a very big downside, like every
> medal has (remember, medals have two sides...) a backside. :( And that
> one is also very clear: Do we, no better does Curt want to put his
> project into the hand of Google who offers a proprietary website engine?
>   
Please explain more about this proprietary website engine?
Do you work for Microsoft? That is my guess and I hope you are not using 
ANYTHING proprietary browser to express upon.
Also can you please host for free a "system" whereby I can hit it as 3 
million a month == once a second, and accommodate a million of those 
hits in one day = slashdot?

That means u need globally distributed with memcahe?
 NO you cant.. so stop talking about shit your don't understand, until 
you've researched the problem more and also having actually experienced it.

> And yes, the main page does fail passing the HTML test [1], and
> upgrading it to XHTML might also be a nice option to think about (4.01
> is getting old in these days).
>   
Get a life!!
the xhtml group is disbanded. Job is/was done and spec completed.
That current spec is html5;  that where its at, are you using a modern 
browser with css3..?
please dump ie6 and netscape now and update to firefox or opera.
> So because of the domain flightgear.org belongs to Curt, he decides and
> we have to take it as he decides. :) And I think he is smart enough to
> not install the first "best" found CMS and next day, the side says the
> owned-by-fool-cracker message... ;-)
>   
We don't really know what goes on in curt's head; you are assuming as 
heresay.
> My 2 cents for this.
>
> Regards,
> Roland
my tuppence
pete

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Roland Haeder]

Na, I didn't solve [1]. Sorry for double email. :(

[1]: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%
2Fwww.flightgear.org&charset=%28detect+automatically%
29&doctype=Inline&group=0


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Roland Haeder]

Hello all,

the problem on those CMS systems (python-written and PHP-written
likewise) is that they sometimes have security holes where a cracker can
more or less easily "own" www.flightgear.org and put his "Owned by
some-fool-cracker" message in there.

I think, this is why someone suggested that Google thing here because
then Google needs to take care about such things as fixing security
holes and installing updates. That is for sure a good reason to
"outsource" hosting of your project.

But like Curt stated before: This has a very big downside, like every
medal has (remember, medals have two sides...) a backside. :( And that
one is also very clear: Do we, no better does Curt want to put his
project into the hand of Google who offers a proprietary website engine?

And yes, the main page does fail passing the HTML test [1], and
upgrading it to XHTML might also be a nice option to think about (4.01
is getting old in these days).

So because of the domain flightgear.org belongs to Curt, he decides and
we have to take it as he decides. :) And I think he is smart enough to
not install the first "best" found CMS and next day, the side says the
owned-by-fool-cracker message... ;-)

My 2 cents for this.

Regards,
Roland



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Pete Morgan]

Martin Spott wrote:
> Geoff McLane wrote:
>
>   
>> So again, we should consider who OWNS the site, and fully
>> RESPECT what he might want, [...]
>> 
>
> I firmly object: The way how the web site is being managed is very
> contradictory to the nature of the entire project.
> I'm not advertizing anarchy here. As with every part of the project,
> maintaining the web site also requires some lead, but I don't see a
> reason why the web site - the layout as well as its technical basis -
> should be excluded from contributions to the project.
>   
this is getting quite frankly silly and stupid, this whole thread is as 
daft as one could get.

so I'll be honest please note this is not "personal" or "malicious".. My 
interests are in flightgear and thanks to Curt our BDFL.

so Curt.. I cant code c++ but its one of your talents.. I can code 
CSS/html easily, but cant code c++ properly.. yet. Your a crap webcoder 
as I am a crap c++ coder.

* the site needs to be modernized.. Just the markup and CSS would be 
100% improvement. ie NO javascript.

* We cant Incrementally improve the site. That is daft idea within the 
way you are coding. In c++ terms you are creating a class definition in 
each file instead of creating a header. In HTML its called a template.

* some templating engine will be required upon machine with a scripting 
lang eg python or php

* the pages =  end points. need to be agnostic. I dont want 
/mpstatus.shtml or mpstatus.php or mpstatus.py. I want /mpstatus/ so end 
user does not know whats behind. eg mpstatus.asp

* your html markup is wrong, it fails desperately and miserably. My 11 
year olde nephew uses validation. You have to respect the change to CSS. 
And that is a "dark art" also to some respects until a master. but you 
fail miserably.

* However its noted that using javascript templates would be cool 90% 
last century, now 1%  rating.

* "just delegate it", then your problem will be shouting at me or others 
to fix things instead of having to do it yourself.  Indeed some of the 
stuff need to be automated more.

* Curt, once its converted to CSS, you should be having more fun playing 
with "design concepts"...

* You need to be more of the "Dictator" in the BDFL; like an empror, go 
to bed, and wake up with things done... but keep you clothes on ;-))

* I dont want to be 100% in control either. I want an environment where 
its "maintained" by a few babysitters and developers.

Guess the whole ball is in your court.

so pick it up the ball and, write "python" or "php" on it then hit it 
back .. hard.. like bjorn borjk..

sorry curt

rant ends
Pete



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Roland Haeder]

Hi,

I like to add that the "Search" button is linking to a page which uses
the personalized Google search which is, of course, closed-source. If
you like, you can replace that with YaCy [1] which allows you to setup
an independent search engine which will only crawl your pages.

You can also choose to contribute your searches to the global
"free-world" index. If you don't have - let me guess here, please - ~512
MB or maybe at most 1 GB RAM left (YaCy needs some for storing URLs and
so-called RWIs, Reversed Word Indexes) you can also ask KIT [2], or
Karlsruhe Institute Of Technology, or better Liebl-Lab [3] for setting
up you a search-portal.

It can be fully integrated into your website, so not only changing the
logo or colors is possible.

If you like to get more, you can ask me or better in the forums [4].

Regards,
Roland

[1] http://yacy.net
[2] http://www.kit.edu/english/
[3] http://liebel.fzk.de/
[4] http://www.yacy-forum.org/



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Martin Spott]

Geoff McLane wrote:

> So again, we should consider who OWNS the site, and fully
> RESPECT what he might want, [...]

I firmly object: The way how the web site is being managed is very
contradictory to the nature of the entire project.
I'm not advertizing anarchy here. As with every part of the project,
maintaining the web site also requires some lead, but I don't see a
reason why the web site - the layout as well as its technical basis -
should be excluded from contributions to the project.

Pete has shown to us a trial balloon and he's proven that his approach
easily allows to aggregate and integrate the usual static web site with
content which is being devlivered and/or pulled from remote sites. A
pretty clever way of setting up such a site, without locking into
nuisances like Flash or the like - I think it's the way to go.

Cheers,
Martin.
-- 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site + MpServer Status

[Pete Morgan]

Geoff McLane wrote:
> He added some new things, which is great, like the mp server
> status, but assume this depends on the python to get information,
> so this may not be portable, but would certainly like to 
> incorporate this in my example also, if possible... How
> to do it is the question?
>   
A server status feed is here, so you can fetch it with ajax, urlfetch, etc
http://fg-online.appspot.com/feeds/
(and need to complete it when I have time - possibly this weekend)
If you need help them let me know.

Getting the feed is currently achieved with the following process.

1) cron fires off every minute to fetch this page 
http://mpmap01.flightgear.org/mpstatus/
2) Python's "BeautifulSoup" rips out the server relay table
3) then stashes the data in memcached as a json string

However,  the MpStatus could be wired up to return data in xml + json as 
well ?
So a call to http://mpmap01.flightgear.org/mpstatus/?format=json would 
return the data. This would be very useful.


Who maintains mpmap01/mpstatus server?


Pete
... goes to kind the mpstatus code


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Geoff McLane]

On Tue, 2010-03-23 at 20:55 +0100, HB-GRAL wrote:
> Geoff McLane schrieb:
> > But his good work _IS_ being used, extensively -
> > 1 left TOC
> > 2 CSS design
> > 3 XHTML 1.0
> > 
> > I have added a little more today...
> >  http://geoffair.net/fg/site 
> > including a bottom TOC - presently not quite the
> > same as the left, but it will be...
> 
> Geoff,
> I am actually not pointing to the work you did. And I am not pointing to 
> your design elements.
> 
> > 
> > There does not seem any need to go totally Googly
> > when all that Pete has done can be done to the
> > current site, in an incremental page-by-page way...
> >
> 
> No.
> 
> Once we have to finish this contradictory page-by-page way. It is not a 
> problem of Googly or not. What Pete bring to us can run on every server 
> - also without the Google API.
> 
> The proposal from Pete includes a real change. His solution is a 
> state-of-the-art Open Source Website and not a proprietary hand-driven 
> Web-link-page with own standards. Pete makes use of code and standards 
> which are open in any direction and which invites other developers to 
> work on this project. He made a clever bridge to all the stuff around. 
> And of course - his page can be maintained by every Webmaster.
> 
> What he has done is that kind of simple and modern solutions which runs 
> on every platform and with every front-end (and can -BTW- also integrate 
> every hand-driven out-of-googly-style-html-page you want). Maybe he used 
> the Google API to show a new track but I think he did not want to 
> discuss about Google-Or-Not-To-Google.
> 
> So what is the real reason that we are not using such professional 
> contribution at all? Why are we going one step forward and then 10 miles 
> backwards?
> 
> - Yves
> 

I do not want to continue to labor the point on this, but
one last try ;=))

As Pete asked back on Feb 13 - Who is the "active" developer...
and he got an answer of sorts - maybe the name which can be read
at the bottom of the main site page ;=)) You could also do a
WHOIS search on the domain 'flightgear.org'...

As far as I know, the English site is _NOT_ open to other 
maintainers, web-masters - full stop! And that includes the
'www' repository... But by the same token the site maintainer
does read and watch for site suggestions, fixes, changes, 
etc... and acts upon them as time permits... as seen with
the Wiki link fix in progress...

So our _ONLY_ path is to make such suggestions, as Pete has
done on the Google app/Django engine, and as I, using MS VWD,
and others have done, and are continuing to do... as you
know several of us have our own sites, or sub-sites 
_DEDICATED_ to FG...

And we have the French, Portuguese, Japanese, Russian, 
(Spanish seems missing now?) sites - each of these are 
run using the 'technology' liked, preferred by the respective
owners... php/wiki/CMS/whatever, be it by 'hand' or with
a shovel ;=))

So what exactly are you asking? If you want to take over
the main English site, or at least open it to other
web-masters, then you can continue to press for that, 
but good luck! I will back the OWNER ;=))

Pete's example copied some pages from the current site,
and it got some brief rave reviews, but it is VERY incomplete,
so we do not know what he intends for the rest of the 
site pages... the rest of the links... my last count,
of the www repo was over 200 pages, and it too seems
missing some later updates (at least of about a week ago)...

And he left out the Google ads. How is he going to fit
these necessary evils into the site? Positioning and
quantity? Ideas on doing this and maintaining his current
very clean look, which I like, while keeping the ads
prominent enough to be of some use, would be very, very
welcome...

He added some new things, which is great, like the mp server
status, but assume this depends on the python to get information,
so this may not be portable, but would certainly like to 
incorporate this in my example also, if possible... How
to do it is the question?

So I would encourage you, Pete and others, through collaboration
with others, if desired, and/or through cvs/git usage, to
continue in this very worthy endeavor... and I would certainly
contribute, if given commit rights...

Even if nothing is taken from it, it provides another 
flightgear information center... which is beneficial...
but some ideas have been taken from it already, at least 
in my examples...

Now whether using the Google advertising revenue toys is more
'professional' than what - a 'proprietary hand-driven 
Web-link-page with own standards' - is a mute point. Both
produce 'web-link-pages' ;=))

Yes, Pete, we _ARE_ replicating work, but the more 'examples'
the better it seems to me... We _DO_ want to encourage Curt
to lift the site out of the 'so last century' as your
nephew put it, but we should do that by encouragement,
plentiful examples, good ideas, etc ;=))

So again, we should consider who OWNS the site, and fully
RESPECT what he might

Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Pete Morgan]

>
> But his good work _IS_ being used, extensively -
> 1 left TOC
> 2 CSS design
> 3 XHTML 1.0
>   
Can I suggest a way forward as we are probably replicating work...

1) create a branch of the "cvs" website in git. (maybe on gitorious/fg)
2) give commit rights to whoever gonna contribute
3) design the basic layout, navigation and stylesheet and a couple of 
pages of  basic content, in branches
4) then go from there...

pete

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[HB-GRAL]

Geoff McLane schrieb:
> But his good work _IS_ being used, extensively -
> 1 left TOC
> 2 CSS design
> 3 XHTML 1.0
> 
> I have added a little more today...
>  http://geoffair.net/fg/site 
> including a bottom TOC - presently not quite the
> same as the left, but it will be...

Geoff,
I am actually not pointing to the work you did. And I am not pointing to 
your design elements.

> 
> There does not seem any need to go totally Googly
> when all that Pete has done can be done to the
> current site, in an incremental page-by-page way...
>

No.

Once we have to finish this contradictory page-by-page way. It is not a 
problem of Googly or not. What Pete bring to us can run on every server 
- also without the Google API.

The proposal from Pete includes a real change. His solution is a 
state-of-the-art Open Source Website and not a proprietary hand-driven 
Web-link-page with own standards. Pete makes use of code and standards 
which are open in any direction and which invites other developers to 
work on this project. He made a clever bridge to all the stuff around. 
And of course - his page can be maintained by every Webmaster.

What he has done is that kind of simple and modern solutions which runs 
on every platform and with every front-end (and can -BTW- also integrate 
every hand-driven out-of-googly-style-html-page you want). Maybe he used 
the Google API to show a new track but I think he did not want to 
discuss about Google-Or-Not-To-Google.

So what is the real reason that we are not using such professional 
contribution at all? Why are we going one step forward and then 10 miles 
backwards?

- Yves


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Pete Morgan]

> There does not seem any need to go totally Googly
> when all that Pete has done can be done to the
> current site, in an incremental page-by-page way...
>
> Am I missing something here?
>   
Can I clear something up here once and for all re the fg-www.appspot.com 
site

1) The site is presently hosted on Google app engine
2) The site uses the Django templating engine
3) Porting the site FROM google to Django is pretty trivial, indeed 
almost an templating engine as "content" is in seperate.html files.
4) THE SITE DOES NOT RELY ON GOOGLE, IT JUST HAPPENS TO BE THERE AT THE 
MOMENT (much like FG runs on Windows does not mean its a proprietary 
application)

thanks
pete

> Regards,
>
> Geoff
>
> PS: Also agree with the sentiments of others
> concerning 'flash'... see my -
>  http://geoffair.net/fg/site/README.site.html#avoid 
> where I also suggest NOT using a CMS (php/MySQL)
> system...
>
>
>
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Geoff McLane]

On Tue, 2010-03-23 at 19:20 +0100, HB-GRAL wrote:
> willie schrieb:
> > 
> > +1 to that, brother
> > There are many excellent sites out there using simple html and
> > intelligent CSS. I don't see why we can't be one of them. Keep it simple
> > and fast.
> >
> 1+ to the whole usability and design consortium here.
> 
> When you read the whole thread you see that this is not an issue of 
> usability nor new design or flash. We have a very good, consistent 
> proposal since many weeks from Pete here. And there is no logical 
> argumentation at the moment why his good work is not used.
> 
> -Yves

But his good work _IS_ being used, extensively -
1 left TOC
2 CSS design
3 XHTML 1.0

I have added a little more today...
 http://geoffair.net/fg/site 
including a bottom TOC - presently not quite the
same as the left, but it will be...

What other design elements are you suggesting?

There does not seem any need to go totally Googly
when all that Pete has done can be done to the
current site, in an incremental page-by-page way...

Am I missing something here?

Regards,

Geoff

PS: Also agree with the sentiments of others
concerning 'flash'... see my -
 http://geoffair.net/fg/site/README.site.html#avoid 
where I also suggest NOT using a CMS (php/MySQL)
system...



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[HB-GRAL]

willie schrieb:
> 
> +1 to that, brother
> There are many excellent sites out there using simple html and
> intelligent CSS. I don't see why we can't be one of them. Keep it simple
> and fast.
> 

1+ to the whole usability and design consortium here.

When you read the whole thread you see that this is not an issue of 
usability nor new design or flash. We have a very good, consistent 
proposal since many weeks from Pete here. And there is no logical 
argumentation at the moment why his good work is not used.

-Yves




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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[willie]

Ron Jensen wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-03-23 at 09:17 +0100, Erik Hofman wrote:
>> Michael Sgier wrote:
>>> Yea not bad but still a little low-tech. What about such:
>>>
>>> http://www.activision.com/index.html#home|de_DE
>> I hate websites that consists only of flash content.
>> In fact I've added a flash blocker because of that.
>>
>> Erik
> 
> Completely agree with Erik here.  Flash is pretty lame as the main
> content wrapper.  I much prefer pure html sites.  Even using javascript
> to create menus sucks, IMHO.


+1 to that, brother
There are many excellent sites out there using simple html and
intelligent CSS. I don't see why we can't be one of them. Keep it simple
and fast.

-- 
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Willie Fleming




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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Olivier JACQ]

In France we use SPIP a lot : http://www.spip.net/rubrique25.html

It a simple open source PHP/MySQL web publishing-focused CMS.

See http://www.spip.net/en_article2009.html for some web examples.

The fact is : the webmaster just has to know HTML/CSS + design, and integrate 
the SPIP "routines" in it.

Clean, easy, yet powerful, no Flash.

- Mail Original -
De: "Gary Neely" 
À: "FlightGear developers discussions" 
Envoyé: Mardi 23 Mars 2010 17h53:46 GMT +01:00 Amsterdam / Berlin / Berne / 
Rome / Stockholm / Vienne
Objet: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

I have to support Ron and others on this-- I much prefer usability and
speed of access over visual gimmicks, especially Flash-based content
navigation.

-Gary aka Buckaroo


On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Ron Jensen  wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-03-23 at 09:17 +0100, Erik Hofman wrote:
>> Michael Sgier wrote:
>> > Yea not bad but still a little low-tech. What about such:
>> >
>> > http://www.activision.com/index.html#home|de_DE
>>
>> I hate websites that consists only of flash content.
>> In fact I've added a flash blocker because of that.
>>
>> Erik
>
> Completely agree with Erik here.  Flash is pretty lame as the main
> content wrapper.  I much prefer pure html sites.  Even using javascript
> to create menus sucks, IMHO.
>
> Thanks
> Jentron
>
>
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Gary Neely]

I have to support Ron and others on this-- I much prefer usability and
speed of access over visual gimmicks, especially Flash-based content
navigation.

-Gary aka Buckaroo


On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Ron Jensen  wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-03-23 at 09:17 +0100, Erik Hofman wrote:
>> Michael Sgier wrote:
>> > Yea not bad but still a little low-tech. What about such:
>> >
>> > http://www.activision.com/index.html#home|de_DE
>>
>> I hate websites that consists only of flash content.
>> In fact I've added a flash blocker because of that.
>>
>> Erik
>
> Completely agree with Erik here.  Flash is pretty lame as the main
> content wrapper.  I much prefer pure html sites.  Even using javascript
> to create menus sucks, IMHO.
>
> Thanks
> Jentron
>
>
> --
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> Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Ron Jensen]

On Tue, 2010-03-23 at 09:17 +0100, Erik Hofman wrote:
> Michael Sgier wrote:
> > Yea not bad but still a little low-tech. What about such:
> > 
> > http://www.activision.com/index.html#home|de_DE
> 
> I hate websites that consists only of flash content.
> In fact I've added a flash blocker because of that.
> 
> Erik

Completely agree with Erik here.  Flash is pretty lame as the main
content wrapper.  I much prefer pure html sites.  Even using javascript
to create menus sucks, IMHO.

Thanks
Jentron


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Stefan Seifert]

On Tuesday 23 March 2010 07:08:47 Michael Sgier wrote:
> Yea not bad but still a little low-tech. What about such:
> 
> http://www.activision.com/index.html#home|de_DE
> 
> Click on images either for links for screenshots. Interesting also for the
>  future when we hopefully have addons. So you could get an impression and
>  then decide to visit the link or not.

Yeah great. It just takes about half a minute to load the page and then still 
have no usability at all.

Stefan

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Erik Hofman]

Michael Sgier wrote:
> Yea not bad but still a little low-tech. What about such:
> 
> http://www.activision.com/index.html#home|de_DE

I hate websites that consists only of flash content.
In fact I've added a flash blocker because of that.

Erik

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Michael Sgier]

Yea not bad but still a little low-tech. What about such:

http://www.activision.com/index.html#home|de_DE

Click on images either for links for screenshots. Interesting also for the 
future when we 
hopefully have addons. So you could get an impression and then decide to visit 
the link 
or not.



--- On Mon, 3/22/10, Geoff McLane  wrote:

From: Geoff McLane 
Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site
To: "FlightGear developers discussions" 
Date: Monday, March 22, 2010, 8:41 PM

Hi Curt,

What about this example?

1. has left constant TOC,
2. uses CSS for positioning,
3. is XHTML 1.0 compliant, and probably 1.1,
4. has same content as current, ads and all ;=))

 http://geoffair.net/fg/site/ 

Near the bottom of the TOC there is a 'Development' page
'REAME.site' which explains more, and has a set of zip 
downloads...

I started by downloading the cvs www repository, (about
a week ago now) but found there seemed 'missing', and
'changed' things when compare to the actual site. Have
you abandoned this 'www' repo? Or perhaps just not
had a chance to fully update it...

Anyway, I would help further 'converting' the balance, if
this general idea is an acceptable, at least as an immediate,
intermediate site update, and certainly hope it addresses 
some of the site concerns expressed by others, and meets 
your personal requirements...

Of course, not everything has been tested yet... but it
is some good percentage along the way...

And would be prepared to try to incorporate any other 
suggestions...

Regards,

Geoff.



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Geoff McLane]

Hi Curt,

What about this example?

1. has left constant TOC,
2. uses CSS for positioning,
3. is XHTML 1.0 compliant, and probably 1.1,
4. has same content as current, ads and all ;=))

 http://geoffair.net/fg/site/ 

Near the bottom of the TOC there is a 'Development' page
'REAME.site' which explains more, and has a set of zip 
downloads...

I started by downloading the cvs www repository, (about
a week ago now) but found there seemed 'missing', and
'changed' things when compare to the actual site. Have
you abandoned this 'www' repo? Or perhaps just not
had a chance to fully update it...

Anyway, I would help further 'converting' the balance, if
this general idea is an acceptable, at least as an immediate,
intermediate site update, and certainly hope it addresses 
some of the site concerns expressed by others, and meets 
your personal requirements...

Of course, not everything has been tested yet... but it
is some good percentage along the way...

And would be prepared to try to incorporate any other 
suggestions...

Regards,

Geoff.



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Pete Morgan]

Alex Perry wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 2:56 AM, Pete Morgan  wrote:
>   
>>> - Do we want to lock ourselves into google?
>>>   
>> These issues worry me also, and indeed pointing www.flightgear.org to
>> fg-www.appspot.com is likely to have other problems (major 404's will
>> need to be handled)
>> 
>
> We should be able to design all the website so it can serve off
> someone's local machine, in addition to the GAE.  Personally, I think
> as an open source project, we need to be _able_ to serve on an
> independent platform even if the primary webserver is GAE.  As was
> mentioned previously, especially if we use Django ... there should be
> nothing that we can't easily do off-GAE.
>
> I'm tempted to suggest that 'www-disaster.flightgear.org' should
> continue to be a Curt-managed machine somewhere.  Give it an
> intentionally bandwidth limited Internet connection and ensure it is
> always running the up to date non-GAE build of the website.  That way,
> we can easily detect when we've accidentally built a GAE dependency
> into our web codebase.
>
> There is the mild concern that (over time) we get our bandwidth usage
> up to the point where we can no longer afford to host the content on
> our own machines at need.  If we want to prepare for that possibility,
> which would not be entirely a bad thing, it might be worth keeping the
> GAE application broken into several pieces, to separate the bits which
> are serving mostly-static content separate from the ones doing
> database accesses.  Then, if we ever have the need to move off GAE and
> are running a lot of bandwidth, we can dedicate one server to the
> database and round robin all the other content across a lot of other
> servers.
>
>   
>> A Major issues is that GAE does not support binary files very well, eg
>> gallery, so I'm not sure how this would work. One possibility would be
>> to rename the current machine as "www2." or "stash." and using it as the
>> binary storage.
>> 
>
> I've never had any trouble using GAE to serve binary files, providing
> they're not ridiculously large (such as huge binary tarballs).  As I
> recall, its web server by default doesn't infer content types so you
> have to set them yourself on dynamic content.  If you still see
> issues, feel free to invite me to the relevant codebase and I'm happy
> to take poke around.
>
>   
>> The main site fg-www has no database, so the design could be ported to
>> the current site quite easily, as it used the Django templating engine.
>>
>>  Does the current server have python or php installed ?
>> 
>>> We might decide that none of these issues are an overriding concern.
>>> [...]   I'd be SOL if google evaporated
>>> from the planet.  So what's one more dependency?
>>>   
>> Maybe we should ask Google to sponsor FlightGear?
>> 
>
> Without speaking for the open source program office, I suspect the
> answer would be that they're very happy to continue sponsoring
> FlightGear by providing infrastructure that lets the project focus on
> its own goals ... autonomously.  The things like Project Hosting,
> GSoC, GAE, conferences, etc ... are all trying to avoid pushing any
> guidance onto the open source projects that take advantage of them.  I
> like that.
>
>   
These debates are pretty pointless. Curt is the webmaster so everything 
needs to pass him and his standards, which platform , css et all.

I just feel sorry that I've wasted a  few days on development in vain.

se la vie

pete

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Alex Perry]

On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 2:56 AM, Pete Morgan  wrote:
>> - Do we want to lock ourselves into google?
> These issues worry me also, and indeed pointing www.flightgear.org to
> fg-www.appspot.com is likely to have other problems (major 404's will
> need to be handled)

We should be able to design all the website so it can serve off
someone's local machine, in addition to the GAE.  Personally, I think
as an open source project, we need to be _able_ to serve on an
independent platform even if the primary webserver is GAE.  As was
mentioned previously, especially if we use Django ... there should be
nothing that we can't easily do off-GAE.

I'm tempted to suggest that 'www-disaster.flightgear.org' should
continue to be a Curt-managed machine somewhere.  Give it an
intentionally bandwidth limited Internet connection and ensure it is
always running the up to date non-GAE build of the website.  That way,
we can easily detect when we've accidentally built a GAE dependency
into our web codebase.

There is the mild concern that (over time) we get our bandwidth usage
up to the point where we can no longer afford to host the content on
our own machines at need.  If we want to prepare for that possibility,
which would not be entirely a bad thing, it might be worth keeping the
GAE application broken into several pieces, to separate the bits which
are serving mostly-static content separate from the ones doing
database accesses.  Then, if we ever have the need to move off GAE and
are running a lot of bandwidth, we can dedicate one server to the
database and round robin all the other content across a lot of other
servers.

> A Major issues is that GAE does not support binary files very well, eg
> gallery, so I'm not sure how this would work. One possibility would be
> to rename the current machine as "www2." or "stash." and using it as the
> binary storage.

I've never had any trouble using GAE to serve binary files, providing
they're not ridiculously large (such as huge binary tarballs).  As I
recall, its web server by default doesn't infer content types so you
have to set them yourself on dynamic content.  If you still see
issues, feel free to invite me to the relevant codebase and I'm happy
to take poke around.

> The main site fg-www has no database, so the design could be ported to
> the current site quite easily, as it used the Django templating engine.
>
>  Does the current server have python or php installed ?
>>
>> We might decide that none of these issues are an overriding concern.
>> [...]   I'd be SOL if google evaporated
>> from the planet.  So what's one more dependency?
> Maybe we should ask Google to sponsor FlightGear?

Without speaking for the open source program office, I suspect the
answer would be that they're very happy to continue sponsoring
FlightGear by providing infrastructure that lets the project focus on
its own goals ... autonomously.  The things like Project Hosting,
GSoC, GAE, conferences, etc ... are all trying to avoid pushing any
guidance onto the open source projects that take advantage of them.  I
like that.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Curtis Olson]

Hi Pete,

For what it's worth, the forum is by far the biggest bandwidth consumer
right now based on the webalizer stats.

Best regards,

Curt.


On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 8:44 PM, Pete Morgan wrote:

> Martin Spott wrote:
> > Pete Morgan wrote:
> >
> >> A Major issues is that GAE does not support binary files very well, eg
> >> gallery, so I'm not sure how this would work. One possibility would be
> >> to rename the current machine as "www2." or "stash." and using it as the
> >> binary storage.
> >>
> >
> > To my understanding, one of the issues with the current web service is
> > the transfer volume limitation. Thus, if you/we use this as a dump
> > store, we don't gain much.
> > As an alternative, storing the bare imagery elsewhere, on a separate
> > SVN repo or the like could be an option.
> >
>
> Have had a play with the SVN idea martin mentioned above and here is the
> result
> http://fg-www.appspot.com/media/gallery/
>
> And the images come from svn in a google project
> http://code.google.com/p/flightgear-gallery/source/browse/#svn/trunk
>
> So all that needs to happen is
> 1) checkout the gallery project
> 2) drop images in the v2.0/images/ directory
> 3) run_all.sh to create thumbs, index.js and svn commit
>
> I could not find a way around creating the index.js (json) file atmo.
>
> seems to work well
>
> pete
>
>
>
>
> --
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Pete Morgan]

Martin Spott wrote:
> Pete Morgan wrote:
>   
>> A Major issues is that GAE does not support binary files very well, eg 
>> gallery, so I'm not sure how this would work. One possibility would be 
>> to rename the current machine as "www2." or "stash." and using it as the 
>> binary storage.
>> 
>
> To my understanding, one of the issues with the current web service is
> the transfer volume limitation. Thus, if you/we use this as a dump
> store, we don't gain much.
> As an alternative, storing the bare imagery elsewhere, on a separate
> SVN repo or the like could be an option.
>   

Have had a play with the SVN idea martin mentioned above and here is the 
result
http://fg-www.appspot.com/media/gallery/

And the images come from svn in a google project
http://code.google.com/p/flightgear-gallery/source/browse/#svn/trunk

So all that needs to happen is
1) checkout the gallery project
2) drop images in the v2.0/images/ directory
3) run_all.sh to create thumbs, index.js and svn commit

I could not find a way around creating the index.js (json) file atmo.

seems to work well

pete



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Pete Morgan]

Martin Spott wrote:
> Pete Morgan wrote:
>
>   
>> A Major issues is that GAE does not support binary files very well, eg 
>> gallery, so I'm not sure how this would work. One possibility would be 
>> to rename the current machine as "www2." or "stash." and using it as the 
>> binary storage.
>> 
>
> To my understanding, one of the issues with the current web service is
> the transfer volume limitation. Thus, if you/we use this as a dump
> store, we don't gain much.
> As an alternative, storing the bare imagery elsewhere, on a separate
> SVN repo or the like could be an option.
>   
bin.go! (oohh no.. go is a google language as well)

At least with svn there are a lot of committers that can be "censored.. 
oops vetoed".

There is a huge issue of "vetoing" uploaded images for example, or 
pointers to other sites. This way many comitters can be tracked, 
promoted and maybe banned as required, before it gets into trunk.

This would remove some of the maintenance issue also from 
www.flightgear.org as well as the bandwidth.

pete


>> Maybe we should ask Google to sponsor FlightGear?
>> 
>
> They already 'sponsor' the project in some way - don't they  ;-)
>
> Cheers,
>   Martin.
>   


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Martin Spott]

Pete Morgan wrote:

> A Major issues is that GAE does not support binary files very well, eg 
> gallery, so I'm not sure how this would work. One possibility would be 
> to rename the current machine as "www2." or "stash." and using it as the 
> binary storage.

To my understanding, one of the issues with the current web service is
the transfer volume limitation. Thus, if you/we use this as a dump
store, we don't gain much.
As an alternative, storing the bare imagery elsewhere, on a separate
SVN repo or the like could be an option.

> Maybe we should ask Google to sponsor FlightGear?

They already 'sponsor' the project in some way - don't they  ;-)

Cheers,
Martin.
-- 
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--

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Pete Morgan]

Curtis Olson wrote:
> Hi Pete,
>
> Another option (perhaps my favorite at the moment) would be to pull in 
> CSS and design elements from your google app engine example and roll 
> them into the current flightgear web page design.  We may need to give 
> up on some of the "app" elements or rewrite them in a way that is 
> supported by more typical web hosting services.
>
> Regards,
>
> Curt.

Was thinking the same thing. That way improvement can be done in steps. 
First targets would be
* valid html
* replacing the js menu with css

what do you think ? Is the website in git ?

pete

>
>
> On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 4:07 AM, Pete Morgan wrote:
>
> Heiko Schulz wrote:
> >
> > I heard Google will rename our planet soon in GoogleEarth;-)
> >
> > I admit to Curt in a lot of points here. The only advantage is
> there is no advertisement, which makes the current page look
> really bad.
> >
> Adverts can be dropped in where required. However an observation
> here is
> that my 10 year olde nephew downloaded some backup software as
> this was
> a featured advert in the main page above the "downlaod flightgear"
> section.
> > On the other side I like the clear structure of this new
> concept, the NOTAM is a great idea! I like that it makes use of a
> newer and fresh logo as the current one is from the last century.
> >
> One of my dislikes is the dropdown navigation. mainly because its
> javascript and not search engine friendly.
> > Only small things which could maybe improved:
> >
> > -the visual appearence needs still a little "kick"- maybe This
> logo: http://wiki.flightgear.org/images/3/3b/Wiki_logo.png with
> more different aircrafts as the A10 as header bar
> >
> Whilst I like the logo, I dislike it because it contains an efficient
> American Killing Machine and makes FlightGear look like a shoot up.
> > - a simple, good looking button "2.0.0" with a link straight
> link to the Download page
> >
> The home page needs some more thought imho.
> > -I miss the fact that we are OpenSource on the main page. Still
> a lot of people thinks we are commercial and all developers are
> salaried workers for "FlightGear" which leds to confusion
> >
> Its at the top " /The World's Leading Open Source Flight Simulator" -
> but see point above.
> /
> >
> > Is this style and Design of this concept proteced by any
> licence? If not We could just take it over and find a place for
> the advertisement...
> >
> Not at all. I am not a designer, merely a developer. In fact a
> designer
> would be really helpful.. anyone ? Gijs ?
> > Or maybe better: make a package of FGFS with the whole Scenery,
> sell it for less than 30Dollars for those who doesn't want and
> can't to download all stuff. That would probably help against FPS
> and keep the page running without advertisement
> >
> That's why I mentioned a while back making a donation/contribution to
> FG, which I would go towards Infrastructure costs.
>
> pete
> >
> > Cheers
> > Heiko
> >
> >
> >
> > __
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen
> herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails.
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> 
> --
> > Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval
> > Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
> > proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
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> > ___
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> > Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> 
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
> >
>
>
> 
> --
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> Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
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> 
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>
>
>
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> 
>
>
> 
>
> ---

Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Curtis Olson]

Hi Pete,

Another option (perhaps my favorite at the moment) would be to pull in CSS
and design elements from your google app engine example and roll them into
the current flightgear web page design.  We may need to give up on some of
the "app" elements or rewrite them in a way that is supported by more
typical web hosting services.

Regards,

Curt.


On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 4:07 AM, Pete Morgan wrote:

> Heiko Schulz wrote:
> >
> > I heard Google will rename our planet soon in GoogleEarth;-)
> >
> > I admit to Curt in a lot of points here. The only advantage is there is
> no advertisement, which makes the current page look really bad.
> >
> Adverts can be dropped in where required. However an observation here is
> that my 10 year olde nephew downloaded some backup software as this was
> a featured advert in the main page above the "downlaod flightgear" section.
> > On the other side I like the clear structure of this new concept, the
> NOTAM is a great idea! I like that it makes use of a newer and fresh logo as
> the current one is from the last century.
> >
> One of my dislikes is the dropdown navigation. mainly because its
> javascript and not search engine friendly.
> > Only small things which could maybe improved:
> >
> > -the visual appearence needs still a little "kick"- maybe This logo:
> http://wiki.flightgear.org/images/3/3b/Wiki_logo.png with more different
> aircrafts as the A10 as header bar
> >
> Whilst I like the logo, I dislike it because it contains an efficient
> American Killing Machine and makes FlightGear look like a shoot up.
> > - a simple, good looking button "2.0.0" with a link straight link to the
> Download page
> >
> The home page needs some more thought imho.
> > -I miss the fact that we are OpenSource on the main page. Still a lot of
> people thinks we are commercial and all developers are salaried workers for
> "FlightGear" which leds to confusion
> >
> Its at the top " /The World's Leading Open Source Flight Simulator" -
> but see point above.
> /
> >
> > Is this style and Design of this concept proteced by any licence? If not
> We could just take it over and find a place for the advertisement...
> >
> Not at all. I am not a designer, merely a developer. In fact a designer
> would be really helpful.. anyone ? Gijs ?
> > Or maybe better: make a package of FGFS with the whole Scenery, sell it
> for less than 30Dollars for those who doesn't want and can't to download all
> stuff. That would probably help against FPS and keep the page running
> without advertisement
> >
> That's why I mentioned a while back making a donation/contribution to
> FG, which I would go towards Infrastructure costs.
>
> pete
> >
> > Cheers
> > Heiko
> >
> >
> >
> > __
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz
> gegen Massenmails.
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> --
> > Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval
> > Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
> > proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
> > See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta.
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev
> > ___
> > Flightgear-devel mailing list
> > Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
> >
>
>
>
> --
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> Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
> proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
> See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta.
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
>



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[HB-GRAL]

Pete Morgan schrieb:
> Not at all. I am not a designer, merely a developer. In fact a designer 
> would be really helpful.. anyone ? Gijs ?

I am working as graphic and web designer for many years. As I saw your 
new site my first impression was there is already a designer at work. 
But when you need help I can help you of course, also for another 
engine. -Yves

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Pete Morgan]

Heiko Schulz wrote:
>
> I heard Google will rename our planet soon in GoogleEarth;-)
>
> I admit to Curt in a lot of points here. The only advantage is there is no 
> advertisement, which makes the current page look really bad. 
>   
Adverts can be dropped in where required. However an observation here is 
that my 10 year olde nephew downloaded some backup software as this was 
a featured advert in the main page above the "downlaod flightgear" section.
> On the other side I like the clear structure of this new concept, the NOTAM 
> is a great idea! I like that it makes use of a newer and fresh logo as the 
> current one is from the last century.
>   
One of my dislikes is the dropdown navigation. mainly because its 
javascript and not search engine friendly.
> Only small things which could maybe improved:
>
> -the visual appearence needs still a little "kick"- maybe This logo: 
> http://wiki.flightgear.org/images/3/3b/Wiki_logo.png with more different 
> aircrafts as the A10 as header bar 
>   
Whilst I like the logo, I dislike it because it contains an efficient 
American Killing Machine and makes FlightGear look like a shoot up.
> - a simple, good looking button "2.0.0" with a link straight link to the 
> Download page 
>   
The home page needs some more thought imho.
> -I miss the fact that we are OpenSource on the main page. Still a lot of 
> people thinks we are commercial and all developers are salaried workers for 
> "FlightGear" which leds to confusion
>   
Its at the top " /The World's Leading Open Source Flight Simulator" - 
but see point above.
/
>
> Is this style and Design of this concept proteced by any licence? If not We 
> could just take it over and find a place for the advertisement...
>   
Not at all. I am not a designer, merely a developer. In fact a designer 
would be really helpful.. anyone ? Gijs ?
> Or maybe better: make a package of FGFS with the whole Scenery, sell it for 
> less than 30Dollars for those who doesn't want and can't to download all 
> stuff. That would probably help against FPS and keep the page running without 
> advertisement
>   
That's why I mentioned a while back making a donation/contribution to 
FG, which I would go towards Infrastructure costs.

pete
>
> Cheers
> Heiko
>
>
>
> __
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz 
> gegen Massenmails. 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
>
> --
> Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval
> Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
> proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
> See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta.
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> Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
>   


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Pete Morgan]

Curtis Olson wrote:
> Hi Pete,
>
> Definitely nice work on the page layout.  It's my job to play devil's 
> advocate so to speak, so don't take this as criticism, but instead I'm 
> just trying to think through all the important issues beyond "hey that 
> looks really nice."
>
> I'm not very familiar with google apps engine which you used to 
> develop this page, but it does look like a very nice and powerful 
> service.  There would be lots of good points to using it.
>
> On the other hand we should consider and discuss some of the possible 
> down sides to google apps engine.
>
> - Everything we develop for this site and all the database data is in 
> a format that depends on google's proprietary services.
>
> - We would be forced to host the site on google's servers (free 
> hosting up to a certain bandwidth/cpu limitation)
>
> - There would be no possibility of ever moving/porting the site to 
> another host because the entire site is dependent on the google apps 
> infrastructure.
>
> - Do we want to lock ourselves into google?
These issues worry me also, and indeed pointing www.flightgear.org to 
fg-www.appspot.com is likely to have other problems (major 404's will 
need to be handled)

A Major issues is that GAE does not support binary files very well, eg 
gallery, so I'm not sure how this would work. One possibility would be 
to rename the current machine as "www2." or "stash." and using it as the 
binary storage.

The main site fg-www has no database, so the design could be ported to 
the current site quite easily, as it used the Django templating engine.

 Does the current server have python or php installed ?
>
> We might decide that none of these issues are an overriding concern. 
>  I use google for my email, I use google docs more and more heavily, I 
> use google search 100's of times a day, I have a google android cell 
> phone, I use google's calendar service, I basically don't use my nuvi 
> any more now that google maps came out with a live navigation 
> application that runs on my phone.  I've been running google chrome on 
> my desktop now instead of firefox because it uses a lot fewer system 
> resources for the 30-40 web tabs I have open across 3 virtual desktops 
> at any given time on my computer. I'm probably still forgetting half 
> the google things I use every day.  I'd be SOL if google evaporated 
> from the planet.  So what's one more dependency?
Maybe we should ask Google to sponsor FlightGear?
> But that said, we should make sure we go a step beyond "looks great" 
> and understand what we would be getting ourselves into, and at least 
> make some conscious decision (even if we don't have 100% group 
> agreement ... we never have 100% agreement.) :-)
>
Can I make a suggestion. Shall I knock up a "report" of the way it could 
go so issues can be identified ?

pete


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Martin Spott]

Dan Brown wrote:

> I'm not a designer but I am currently considering going freelance as a 
> web developer so been reading up on some of the standard rules of web 
> design, content and user experience in case I need them.

Not bad, this probably makes you the one-eyed man in the land of the
blind  ;-)

Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Dan Brown]

Certainly looks good, more modern but still a few years behind the times 
maybe? (i.e. a bit boxy and trying to overload the page with 
options/content)

I would like to point out that there seems to be nothing there that is 
Google App Engine specific. That design can be implemented using a 
regular open source CMS such as Joomla, Drupal or something as simple as 
WordPress with some custom plugins. Or even custom written reasonably 
easily using frameworks such as Zend, CakePHP (or asp equivalents 
depending on flightgear.org's capabilities). Ease of use to update the 
content of course should be important and if App Engine is good then no 
reason it shouldn't be considered.

For specific criticism on the design (constructive of course) -

* The "call to action", where you want to lead people as their first 
click on the site and should catch the eye, is the message about 
mpserver02. It needs to be a general FG introduction, a download link, 
the gallery or a combination of those to keep peoples interest up If 
someone browses to the home page by random link/chance the lack of a 
'now do this' in their face has been proven on other sites to cause a 
large number to just leave straight away. Think of it as a guided tour - 
With this much content the regulars who know the site are free to 
browse, but the newcomers need signposts and something to draw them in.

* The left menu is harder to scan quickly than it needs to be as the 
major navigation tool. Maybe have them all lined up on the left but the 
text still indented. The current sites menu is also good with dropdown 
boxes to hide subsections until it is needed. Ease of use and less 
clutter should be number 1 priority and the design should be driven by 
it, not the other way around.

* Clicking Index, Website and the logo would presumably all link to the 
same place, It only needs 1 of them.

* Why the login button? If the general public can't login, don't let 
them think they can. If they can, let them know what benefit they would 
get, i.e "Login/register to post comments".

and (not a design issue, just content in general)

*  There is no About->FlightGear on the menu or preferably obvious on 
the front page. Someone already into sims will want to see the feature 
list, but someone completely new has nothing to get them fired up about 
sims in general and FG in particular. Also be honest about what it can 
and can't (currently) do on that page, nobody likes over-hyping 
especially on open source apps. The current site has an introduction, 
although could still do with a bit extra. The first paragraph is key 
(same on the home page) and currently is just about open 
source/cross-platform support which needs to be said, but not straight 
away. It needs to grab them - "Your Cessna C172p SkyHawk is fuelled and 
ready to go on runway 28 right at San Francisco International Airport. 
There is a light easterly wind and barely a cloud in the sky, looks like 
the scenery is going to be impressive today. You are cleared for takeoff 
Captain, what are you waiting on the ground for? Roll out!  FlightGear is a complete open source flight simulator for all 
major computer platforms...", etc. Make them want to download and have a 
go before they do anything else that day.

I'm not a designer but I am currently considering going freelance as a 
web developer so been reading up on some of the standard rules of web 
design, content and user experience in case I need them. I am also a 
lurker so feel free to tell me not to poke my nose in :). I am still 
looking for some free time to contribute though as there are a few areas 
I'd love to help with, namely terrain rendering and computer ATC/AI 
traffic, maybe even a career mode (I really miss FSPassengers from 
FS2004/FSX). I was also going to try and do a design for this site as 
well, but been busy the last week as usual.

Curtis Olson wrote:
> - Do we want to lock ourselves into google?
> Regards,
>
> Curt.
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 4:25 AM, Patrice Poly  > wrote:
>
> I like it too ! Very nice and fresh work !
>
> On 08/03/2010 06:22, Pete Morgan wrote:
> > Have developed the idea a bit further.
> >
> > http://fg-www.appspot.com/
> >
> > idea is to have a dedicated aircraft  and Online site also
> >
> >
> > is this worth pursuing ? Its quite neat and developer friendly
> on the
> > Google App Engine.
> >
> > pete
> >
>
>
> -- 
> Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ 
> 


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Martin Spott]

Curtis Olson wrote:

> Definitely nice work on the page layout.  It's my job to play devil's
> advocate so to speak, [...]

My concerns are of similar nature, and locking the project into
Google's infrastructure without any option to pull out doesn't sound
intriguingly. But since I knew that you'd play the role, I was happily
taking the easy route  :-)

> - We would be forced to host the site on google's servers (free hosting up
> to a certain bandwidth/cpu limitation)

Recent history has shown that there's no drawback compared to the
current solution.

> - There would be no possibility of ever moving/porting the site to another
> host because the entire site is dependent on the google apps infrastructure.

I don't think so - well, depends on which parts of the framework are
being used. According to this document:

  http://code.google.com/intl/en-intl/appengine/docs/python/overview.html

 there's always the option to use the Django framework and from a
quick glance I'd say that even the Google Python datastore API seems to
be very similar to the Django database API. Therefore I suspect that
such a site would be pretty portable as long as no "webapp"-framework
specific code is being used and I also don't see a reason why the
Google datastore content can't be written into some (portable) dump
file.

Cheers,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Heiko Schulz]

Hi,
> 
> On the other hand we should consider and discuss some of
> the possible down sides to google apps engine.
> - Everything we develop for this site and all
> the database data is in a format that depends on
> google's proprietary services.
> 
> 
> - We would be forced to host the site on
> google's servers (free hosting up to a certain
> bandwidth/cpu limitation)
> - There would be no possibility of ever
> moving/porting the site to another host because the entire
> site is dependent on the google apps infrastructure.
> 

I heard Google will rename our planet soon in GoogleEarth;-)

I admit to Curt in a lot of points here. The only advantage is there is no 
advertisement, which makes the current page look really bad. 

On the other side I like the clear structure of this new concept, the NOTAM is 
a great idea! I like that it makes use of a newer and fresh logo as the current 
one is from the last century.

Only small things which could maybe improved:

-the visual appearence needs still a little "kick"- maybe This logo: 
http://wiki.flightgear.org/images/3/3b/Wiki_logo.png with more different 
aircrafts as the A10 as header bar 

- a simple, good looking button "2.0.0" with a link straight link to the 
Download page 

-I miss the fact that we are OpenSource on the main page. Still a lot of people 
thinks we are commercial and all developers are salaried workers for 
"FlightGear" which leds to confusion


Is this style and Design of this concept proteced by any licence? If not We 
could just take it over and find a place for the advertisement...

Or maybe better: make a package of FGFS with the whole Scenery, sell it for 
less than 30Dollars for those who doesn't want and can't to download all stuff. 
That would probably help against FPS and keep the page running without 
advertisement


Cheers
Heiko



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Curtis Olson]

Hi Pete,

Definitely nice work on the page layout.  It's my job to play devil's
advocate so to speak, so don't take this as criticism, but instead I'm just
trying to think through all the important issues beyond "hey that looks
really nice."

I'm not very familiar with google apps engine which you used to develop this
page, but it does look like a very nice and powerful service.  There would
be lots of good points to using it.

On the other hand we should consider and discuss some of the possible down
sides to google apps engine.

- Everything we develop for this site and all the database data is in a
format that depends on google's proprietary services.

- We would be forced to host the site on google's servers (free hosting up
to a certain bandwidth/cpu limitation)

- There would be no possibility of ever moving/porting the site to another
host because the entire site is dependent on the google apps infrastructure.

- Do we want to lock ourselves into google?

We might decide that none of these issues are an overriding concern.  I use
google for my email, I use google docs more and more heavily, I use google
search 100's of times a day, I have a google android cell phone, I use
google's calendar service, I basically don't use my nuvi any more now that
google maps came out with a live navigation application that runs on my
phone.  I've been running google chrome on my desktop now instead of firefox
because it uses a lot fewer system resources for the 30-40 web tabs I have
open across 3 virtual desktops at any given time on my computer. I'm
probably still forgetting half the google things I use every day.  I'd be
SOL if google evaporated from the planet.  So what's one more dependency?

But that said, we should make sure we go a step beyond "looks great" and
understand what we would be getting ourselves into, and at least make some
conscious decision (even if we don't have 100% group agreement ... we never
have 100% agreement.) :-)

Regards,

Curt.


On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 4:25 AM, Patrice Poly  wrote:

> I like it too ! Very nice and fresh work !
>
> On 08/03/2010 06:22, Pete Morgan wrote:
> > Have developed the idea a bit further.
> >
> > http://fg-www.appspot.com/
> >
> > idea is to have a dedicated aircraft  and Online site also
> >
> >
> > is this worth pursuing ? Its quite neat and developer friendly on the
> > Google App Engine.
> >
> > pete
> >
>
>
>
> --
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Patrice Poly]

I like it too ! Very nice and fresh work !

On 08/03/2010 06:22, Pete Morgan wrote:
> Have developed the idea a bit further.
>
> http://fg-www.appspot.com/
>
> idea is to have a dedicated aircraft  and Online site also
>
>
> is this worth pursuing ? Its quite neat and developer friendly on the 
> Google App Engine.
>
> pete
>   


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Vivian Meazza]

Pete Morgan wrote

> 
> Have developed the idea a bit further.
> 
> http://fg-www.appspot.com/ 
> 
> idea is to have a dedicated aircraft  and Online site also
> 
> 
> is this worth pursuing ? Its quite neat and developer friendly on the
> Google App Engine.
> 
> pete
> 
> Curtis Olson wrote:
> > On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 9:06 PM, Pete Morgan  > > wrote:
> >
> > I want to help please...
> >
> >
> > Hi Pete,
> >
> > Here's one possible idea.  Why not whip together a replacement front
> > page and maybe a sample sub-page, put it in a temporary location, and
> > we can take a look.  That way we could present some different ideas
> > and see if we like them, but at the same time, you don't have to do a
> > huge amount of work only to find out that no one likes the new design
> > proposal.
> >

The consensus on this website seems to be favourable. I think that this
website could be very well worth continued development. In particular, it
has some useful functionality. 

However, until a decision is made on its future use, I wouldn't make any
further development a high priority, beyond tidying up the work already
done. It is a good proof-of-concept using the Google App Engine.

Vivian



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[HB-GRAL]

Pete Morgan schrieb:
> Have developed the idea a bit further.
> 
> http://fg-www.appspot.com/
> 
> idea is to have a dedicated aircraft  and Online site also
> 
> 

Wow! We get a cool well designed new FG-Site! Thank you very much.
- Yves

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Martin Spott]

Pete Morgan wrote:

> Have developed the idea a bit further.
> 
> http://fg-www.appspot.com/

Well done. Not only the integration with existing ('2nd party')
resources is promoted reasonably, also the various menu items, not only
but, also on the main site, are easily accessible.

Cheers,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Alex Perry]

I like it too.

On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 9:22 PM, Pete Morgan  wrote:
> Have developed the idea a bit further.
>
> http://fg-www.appspot.com/
>
> idea is to have a dedicated aircraft  and Online site also
>
>
> is this worth pursuing ? Its quite neat and developer friendly on the
> Google App Engine.
>
> pete
>
> Curtis Olson wrote:
>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 9:06 PM, Pete Morgan > > wrote:
>>
>>     I want to help please...
>>
>>
>> Hi Pete,
>>
>> Here's one possible idea.  Why not whip together a replacement front
>> page and maybe a sample sub-page, put it in a temporary location, and
>> we can take a look.  That way we could present some different ideas
>> and see if we like them, but at the same time, you don't have to do a
>> huge amount of work only to find out that no one likes the new design
>> proposal.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Curt.
>> --
>> Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/
>> 
>> 
>>
>> --
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>> Predictive Self Healing and Award Winning ZFS. Get Solaris 10 NOW
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>
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Pete Morgan]

Have developed the idea a bit further.

http://fg-www.appspot.com/

idea is to have a dedicated aircraft  and Online site also


is this worth pursuing ? Its quite neat and developer friendly on the 
Google App Engine.

pete

Curtis Olson wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 9:06 PM, Pete Morgan  > wrote:
>
> I want to help please...
>
>
> Hi Pete,
>
> Here's one possible idea.  Why not whip together a replacement front 
> page and maybe a sample sub-page, put it in a temporary location, and 
> we can take a look.  That way we could present some different ideas 
> and see if we like them, but at the same time, you don't have to do a 
> huge amount of work only to find out that no one likes the new design 
> proposal. 
>
> Best regards,
>
> Curt.
> -- 
> Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ 
> 
> 
>
> --
> SOLARIS 10 is the OS for Data Centers - provides features such as DTrace,
> Predictive Self Healing and Award Winning ZFS. Get Solaris 10 NOW
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[syd adams]

Very nice !
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Pedro Monteiro]

Hi. This is my first message to list but I would like to say I like it
a lot!

Pedro

On 2010/03/06, at 12:07, Pete Morgan  wrote:

> Curtis Olson wrote:
>>
>> Hi Pete,
>>
>> Here's one possible idea.  Why not whip together a replacement front
>> page and maybe a sample sub-page, put it in a temporary location, and
>> we can take a look.  That way we could present some different ideas
>> and see if we like them, but at the same time, you don't have to do a
>> huge amount of work only to find out that no one likes the new design
>> proposal.
>>
> Here's an idea
>
> http://fg-aircraft.appspot.com/idea/
>
> Am not a graphic designer ;-(
>
> pete
>
> ---
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Peter Brown]

Very Nice!  Clean, Integrated very well.  


On Mar 6, 2010, at 7:07 AM, Pete Morgan wrote:

>> 
> Here's an idea
> 
> http://fg-aircraft.appspot.com/idea/
> 
> Am not a graphic designer ;-(
> 
> pete


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Vivian Meazza]

Erik Hofman wrote

> 
> Pete Morgan wrote:
> > http://fg-aircraft.appspot.com/idea/
> >
> > Am not a graphic designer ;-(
> 
> Nicely integrated! I like it a lot.
> 
> Erik
> 

Me too! Who needs graphic designers to muck up an engineer's solution :-)?

Nice functionality. Keep on working on it - this looks like a good way to
go.


Vivian 



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Erik Hofman]

Pete Morgan wrote:
> http://fg-aircraft.appspot.com/idea/
> 
> Am not a graphic designer ;-(

Nicely integrated! I like it a lot.

Erik

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Pete Morgan]

Curtis Olson wrote:
>
> Hi Pete,
>
> Here's one possible idea.  Why not whip together a replacement front 
> page and maybe a sample sub-page, put it in a temporary location, and 
> we can take a look.  That way we could present some different ideas 
> and see if we like them, but at the same time, you don't have to do a 
> huge amount of work only to find out that no one likes the new design 
> proposal. 
>
Here's an idea

http://fg-aircraft.appspot.com/idea/

Am not a graphic designer ;-(

pete

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Durk Talsma]

Hi Erik,

On Monday 01 March 2010 12:02:10 pm Erik Hofman wrote:
> Here's a quick attempt of mine:
> http://home.telfort.nl/sp004798/fgfs/
>
I like this new concept. What should probably be added is a "Home" on the top-
left, just above the "News" menu, which could link to a page containing the 
current image rotator (which I really like BTW), generic download information, 
and maybe just a headline of the latest news item.

I also like the fact that there are no adds in the content area of the website 
here. I don't object against the google adds per se, because I do realize that 
something has to pay for keeping the website up. However, the one add that is 
currently placed prominently inside the content area has always struck me as 
out of place.

Cheers,
Durk



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Erik Hofman]

Curtis Olson wrote:
> Here's one possible idea.  Why not whip together a replacement front 
> page and maybe a sample sub-page, put it in a temporary location, and we 
> can take a look.  That way we could present some different ideas and see 
> if we like them, but at the same time, you don't have to do a huge 
> amount of work only to find out that no one likes the new design proposal. 

Here's a quick attempt of mine:
http://home.telfort.nl/sp004798/fgfs/

Erik

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[John Denker]

On 02/16/2010 11:27 AM, Curtis Olson wrote:

> Here's one possible idea.  Why not whip together a replacement front page
> and maybe a sample sub-page, put it in a temporary location, and we can take
> a look.  


That's a great idea.

Taking the next step along that road, it would be
nice to bring up an alpha-test version of the entire
FG web site.  We are currently alpha-testing the
executables and the data tree;  why not alpha-test
the web site?  There are dozens, maybe hundreds of
changes that need to be made, to make the web site
conform to the 2.0.0 release.

Specific suggestion: as a starting point, how about 
copying the whole tree to a subdirectory such as 
  http://www.flightgear.org/2.0.0/

and then updating the files on that branch one by
one.

Also cvs.flightgear.org needs some TLC.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Curtis Olson]

On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 9:06 PM, Pete Morgan  wrote:

> I want to help please...
>

Hi Pete,

Here's one possible idea.  Why not whip together a replacement front page
and maybe a sample sub-page, put it in a temporary location, and we can take
a look.  That way we could present some different ideas and see if we like
them, but at the same time, you don't have to do a huge amount of work only
to find out that no one likes the new design proposal.

Best regards,

Curt.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Curtis Olson]

... who is in PA this weekend for his brother's wedding and probably not
able to do much until he returns home ...

On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 8:36 PM, Heiko Schulz wrote:

>
> > Who is the "active" developer of the
> > main flightgear.org website?
> >
> > pete
> >
>
> Well, maybe the guy which name can be read at the bottom of flightgear.org?
> ;-)
>
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> http://p.sf.net/sfu/solaris-dev2dev
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Pete Morgan]

Heiko Schulz wrote:
>> Who is the "active" developer of the
>> main flightgear.org website?
>>
>> pete
>>
>> 
>
> Well, maybe the guy which name can be read at the bottom of flightgear.org? 
> ;-)
>   

He's not on this site
http://www.flightgear.pl/
or this one
http://www.flightgear.jpn.org/
for example.

However, I've cvs checked out the main site, and do wish that I could 
help curt would be helpful in taking his original site forward. I'll 
quote my nephew "But its so last century".. and that hurt me 
also..(he was commenting on the CSS btw.. trained hime well as 13 
year olde :--)

I want to help please.. I feel there should be a one page "portal" that 
can allow everyone from kids, ie trainees through to professional non 
professionals, developers maybe another page to have access to 
"flightgear" as its a whole "platform" moving forward into the future.

It  actually took me four a4 pages to sketch out what the Flightgear  
"is", from FDM, c++, nasal, scenery to aircraft, navdata et all..to a 
professional java enterprise programmer. phew "is what he said.. looks 
like real fun.. I'm in"

I mentioned before a "revamp" and a design competition, where all the 
submitters can win.

Anyway, whichever way it runs, I'll be an FG fan forever and want to be 
part of its success.

Please dont read this as a negative comment. I want the success of FG so 
I can fly with everyone for fun.


Pete ;-)



> __
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> Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz 
> gegen Massenmails. 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
>
> --
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Heiko Schulz]

> Who is the "active" developer of the
> main flightgear.org website?
> 
> pete
> 

Well, maybe the guy which name can be read at the bottom of flightgear.org? ;-)

__
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[Flightgear-devel] Web Site

[Pete Morgan]

Who is the "active" developer of the main flightgear.org website?

pete

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] web site hacked ?

[Vivian Meazza]

Andrew Gluszynski

> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I dont normaly post to this mailing list, but i think the web site has
> been hacked?
> 

It has, but this still works http://flightgear.org/ 

Vivian


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] web site hacked ?

[Chris Metzler]

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 22:15:27 +1300
Dene wrote:
>
> Hi Chris,
> What do you mean "top-post", I thought the protocol was to edit the
> post you were replying to and post your comments either through out it
> or at the bottom?

Yep, you got it; and it's what you did in the post I'm replying to here;
but not the one I replied to before.  No worries.


> PS thnx for the hint on getting to the site..works a treat

Cool.

-c

-- 
Chris Metzler   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(remove "snip-me." to email)

"As a child I understood how to give; I have forgotten this grace since I
have become civilized." - Chief Luther Standing Bear


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] web site hacked ?

[Leidson Campos A. Ferreira]

Check what IP addresses these names point to.The 
www.flightgear.org points to   72.36.162.58 (Not working)The flightgear.org points to 128.101.142.119  (Working)
Leidson CamposPlanetaMessenger.orgOn 11/9/06, Curtis Olson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 11/9/06, Leidson Campos A. Ferreira
 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

The http://www.flightgear.org seems to be offline (maybe a DNS problem) and 

http://flightgear.org is working fine.Check what IP addresses these names point to.  
www.flightgear.org is the "official" site., 
flightgear.org actually points to my backup machine right now.  As of two seconds ago I have set www.flightgear.org
 to point to my backup server.  Might take a while for the dns to flush through if you've already done a dns request for 
www.flightgear.org recently.Curt.-- Curtis Olson - University of Minnesota - FlightGear Project

http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/  http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/  
http://www.flightgear.orgUnique text: 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] web site hacked ?

[George Patterson]

On Thu, 2006-11-09 at 04:05 -0500, Chris Metzler wrote:
> Hi.  Please don't top-post; it makes your posts very very hard
> to follow.
> 
> On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 21:22:43 +1300
> Dene wrote:
> >Andrew Gluszynski wrote:
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> I dont normaly post to this mailing list, but i think the web site has
> >> been hacked?
> >>
> >
> > Confirmed... no thinking about it...it's been hit buy hackers :-(
> > Dene
> 
> You might want to check the archives of this mailing list -- I'm pretty
> sure this was discussed here several days ago.  I thought the problem had
> been solved, however.  Anyway, right now it appears simply that the DNS
> record for www.flightgear.org has been hosed, but not the actual website
> itself.  Try http://flightgear.org/ rather than http://www.flightgear.org/
> and it should work OK.
> 
> -c
> 

Hi Chris,

It had been. I accessed it sucessfully earlier today but seems to be
hosed again from my isp.

I query the www.flightgear.org and flightgear.org dns records from one
of easydns's server and they are this same. See below

I think Andrew may just need to wait for www.flightgear.org to be
refreshed at his local dns server.

See below.



Regards


George


Querying the domains from my isp's dns server.
$ host flightgear.org
flightgear.org has address 128.101.142.119
flightgear.org mail is handled by 5 mail.flightgear.org.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ host www.flightgear.org
www.flightgear.org has address 72.36.162.58

Querying easydns.com's server directly.
$ nslookup
> server ns1.easydns.com
Default server: ns1.easydns.com
Address: 216.220.40.243#53
> flightgear.org
Server: ns1.easydns.com
Address:216.220.40.243#53

Name:   flightgear.org
Address: 128.101.142.119
> www.flightgear.org
Server: ns1.easydns.com
Address:216.220.40.243#53

Name:   www.flightgear.org
Address: 128.101.142.119
$



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] web site hacked ?

[Curtis Olson]

On 11/9/06, Leidson Campos A. Ferreira <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The http://www.flightgear.org seems to be offline (maybe a DNS problem) and 
http://flightgear.org is working fine.Check what IP addresses these names point to.  www.flightgear.org is the "official" site., 
flightgear.org actually points to my backup machine right now.  As of two seconds ago I have set www.flightgear.org to point to my backup server.  Might take a while for the dns to flush through if you've already done a dns request for 
www.flightgear.org recently.Curt.-- Curtis Olson - University of Minnesota - FlightGear Project
http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/  http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/  http://www.flightgear.orgUnique text: 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] web site hacked ?

[Leidson Campos A. Ferreira]

The http://www.flightgear.org seems to be offline (maybe a DNS problem) and http://flightgear.org is working fine.Leidson CamposPlanetaMessenger.org
On 11/9/06, Andrew Gluszynski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] web site hacked ?

[Dene]

Chris Metzler wrote:
> Hi.  Please don't top-post; it makes your posts very very hard
> to follow.
>   
>
Hi Chris,
What do you mean "top-post", I thought the protocol was to edit the post 
you were replying to and post your comments either through out it or at 
the bottom?
Cheers
Dene
PS thnx for the hint on getting to the site..works a treat


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] web site hacked ?

[Chris Metzler]

Hi.  Please don't top-post; it makes your posts very very hard
to follow.

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 21:22:43 +1300
Dene wrote:
>Andrew Gluszynski wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I dont normaly post to this mailing list, but i think the web site has
>> been hacked?
>>
>
> Confirmed... no thinking about it...it's been hit buy hackers :-(
> Dene

You might want to check the archives of this mailing list -- I'm pretty
sure this was discussed here several days ago.  I thought the problem had
been solved, however.  Anyway, right now it appears simply that the DNS
record for www.flightgear.org has been hosed, but not the actual website
itself.  Try http://flightgear.org/ rather than http://www.flightgear.org/
and it should work OK.

-c


-- 
Chris Metzler   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(remove "snip-me." to email)

"As a child I understood how to give; I have forgotten this grace since I
have become civilized." - Chief Luther Standing Bear


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] web site hacked ?

[Dene]

Confirmed... no thinking about it...it's been hit buy hackers :-(
Dene

Andrew Gluszynski wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I dont normaly post to this mailing list, but i think the web site has
> been hacked?
>
>
>
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>   

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[Flightgear-devel] web site hacked ?

[Andrew Gluszynski]

Hi all,

I dont normaly post to this mailing list, but i think the web site has
been hacked?



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[Flightgear-devel] Web site migration

[Curtis L. Olson]

This is a quick announcement to let every one know that I have moved the 
primary FlightGear web site off my university's network to a paid 
commercial web hosting service.  I've put in quite a bit of time/effort 
to make sure this transition is seamless with no downtime, broken links, 
or other problems.  However, it's very possible that I have overlooked 
something.  So if you see any problems or oddities with the FlightGear 
web site, please let me know as soon as possible.

The web hosting company I selected is FrozenWebHost: 
http://www.frozenwebhost.com/ and so far I've been very pleased with 
their service and bandwidth.  The owner of this company is a "Friend of 
FlightGear" FOF (?) :-) so if you are in the market for web hosting 
services, feel free to take a look at what they have to offer.

Regards,

Curt.

-- 
Curtis Olsonhttp://baron.flightgear.org/~curt
HumanFIRST Program  http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/
FlightGear Project  http://www.flightgear.org
Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d



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[Flightgear-devel] web site restructuring

[Curtis L. Olson]

I've recently done a bit of behind the scenes restructuring of the web 
site to remove many absolute references and make the site more 
"relocatable".  Please keep your eyes open and report any busted links 
or other oddities on the flightgear.org web site you might notice.

I am doing this in order to be able to move the main flightgear.org web 
site off my university's network and onto a commercial hosting service 
(www.frozenwebhost.com).  For what it's worth, frozenwebhost.com has 
been very helpful in answering questions and going out of their way to 
meet my (our) specific needs.

Curt.

-- 
Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt
HumanFIRST Program  http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/
FlightGear Project  http://www.flightgear.org
Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d



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