Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice
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Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice
In a message dated 1/9/03 2:02:51 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Danke schön, liebe verruckte Hund Sie auch bitte nicht bitter!
Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice
On Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 12:38 AM, joseph (yes=no yes>no) wrote: Quoting Kathy Forer [EMAIL PROTECTED]>: She really had you fooled, dear Echo. Hi Kathy, are you trying to maintain a voice of superior reason? Fuck that shit! This is what I think. It's complicated and I wasn't sure who was who*, but what I said makes the most sense to me. It's my story. And I'll stick with it. On a, er, purely subjective basis. The dear strategy is only useful against people with deep seated insecurities...and all you accomplish is beating up on somebody who is already beaten. How does telling the truth the way I see it -- given the history we've attempted to establish here of open dialogue without concern for civil polity -- beat up on anyone in particular? Who are you protecting? I meant "dear," for the nymphs all loved Narcissus. Are you saying no one can be "beaten" unless they are insecure? What do you mean by beaten, who was beaten? You, joseph donna, or karei? Or, are there two different subjects, the one accused of NOT having deep seated insecurities and the other already beaten? It sort of makes you cruel, don't you think? How is that? Creating and maintaining a persona can be a very dangerous game. Sometimes it's kinder not to play. The only legitimate voice lost was hers, and ours reflected in hers and hers reflecting hers back again. Ad nauseum. Allen threw that babycheeks out with the bath water -- where it belongs. Do you think that a voice was lost? It seems more like hands over the ears to me. Whose hands over whose ears? If it was ours, well, for a good reason. Kandinskij walks in, posts a couple of interesting but un-remarked upon links, Eryk says he's "off this list, too." K replies "Have a nice time?" You interject a pleasant (or not: was it code?) ditty about watermelons and summer. K replies "Nobody was speaking to you" and the list is shortly subsumed by one person. At one point early on, Roger replies "Anything addressed to Fluxlist is to everyone." You concur... and K replies You may disagree, but that is based only into your own narcissism. And reality doesn't revolve around your "I" and the nonsense you attach to it. and again Avoida ttempting to dictate your ego, psychotic murderous ape. And my perception, if I'm allowed to accept and honor it, was that the mouldering list was subsumed by K's attempts to break down the (apparent) impenetrability of an ego-wall with whatever tactics are at hand. In this case, narcissistic self-absorption. Yes, a voice was lost. In a bottomless wallow. Of what I'm not sure, but our feeding it just made it worse. "Nothing that would further" given the situation as it was. The greatest mental trap is a worldview that insists upon its uniqueness and correctness. You, my friend, are trapped. [From: "joseph (yes)"] No need to prolong the pain. Anyone's. I feel badly for the death monster, our creation or hers.** But not so badly that I'd want to continue to support it as it grew to be something else entirely, something ugly and tiresome. The wizard of oz without toto. * (and given the other things going on "at that time," I didn't pay much more than passing attention to it, though it seemed a very familiar and tedious self-righteous and juvenile game, for some reason.) What WE have pointed out about you is that you attempt to "use" art to peddle idiocy in order to put down, degrade, PUT HUMANS TO SLEEP and feed on their energy. This my dearest is not ART. This is the domain of a CONMAN. [From: "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+" ] "Artistry. What is it? I wonder on this thought. Is it the ability to successfully con people or is there more involved?" ** (there was an objection made that K was not a she, but I chose to say she as I am a she. I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together. Maybe also something to do with animus... but I'm not sure what that is.) It's late. I've violated the text only red> no code policy /red>. joseph donna www.electrichands.com joseph franklyn mcelroy corporate performance artist www.corporatepa.com go shopping -> http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm call me 646 279 2309 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER CUPCAKEKALEIDOSCOPE - send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 09:37 AM, joseph (yes=no yes>no) wrote: This is not what was happening. Loosing a legitimate voice (sans violence) is a self-inflicted misery and fear of such happening is an insecurity (note that this is an opinion derived through inner reflection and as such, since I do not KNOW ultimate truth, is probably subjective). She really had you fooled, dear Echo. The only legitimate voice lost was hers, and ours reflected in hers and hers reflecting hers back again. Ad nauseum. Allen threw that babycheeks out with the bath water -- where it belongs.
Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice
Quoting Kathy Forer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Fuck that shit! This is what I think. It's complicated and I wasn't sure who was who*, but what I said makes the most sense to me. You said what you think, but you were trying to make sure I was impressed and suitably silenced by what you think (a suppression?). I can assure you that if you had just expressed your concern for suppression of legitmate voices, I would have taken you seriously without the need for power strategies designed to reduce my state. How does telling the truth the way I see it -- given the history we've attempted to establish here of open dialogue without concern for civil polity -- beat up on anyone in particular? Who are you protecting? I am not protecting anyone specifically. However, you were not *just* telling the truth the way you see it, you were attempting to *force* its acceptance. Are you saying no one can be beaten unless they are insecure? What do you mean by beaten, who was beaten? You, joseph donna, or karei? Or, are there two different subjects, the one accused of NOT having deep seated insecurities and the other already beaten? No - I was just pointing out that the Dear xxx strategy is only successful against opponents with insecurity, as it depends upon them succombing in the face of disdain. I haven't treated you with disdain, why are you treating me with such? Not that I am asking for kind treatment, I am more than capable of defending myself, however I would prefer it otherwise. How is that? Creating and maintaining a persona can be a very dangerous game. Sometimes it's kinder not to play. How about this...I am a very large man - perhaps we should as a society allow me to walk to the first position in any line I choose to stand in. There is no law against it, and if you tried to shove me out of the way, I first could not be budged and second could have you arrested for assault. Yes, a voice was lost. In a bottomless wallow. Of what I'm not sure, but our feeding it just made it worse. Nothing that would further given the situation as it was. Again, the voice was not lost. Unless you want to murder the original before it is heard, a voice will find a way to live. If you feel it must be defeated, you should confront it and deal with what it has to say. I feel badly for the death monster, our creation or hers.** But not so badly that I'd want to continue to support it as it grew to be something else entirely, something ugly and tiresome. The wizard of oz without toto. You are judging and convicting based upon a small sliver of time. While I don't agree with all that K+ does, I find quite a bit of usefulness (and beauty) in what he has to say. joseph donna www.electrichands.com joseph franklyn mcelroy corporate performance artist www.corporatepa.com go shopping - http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm call me 646 279 2309 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER CUPCAKEKALEIDOSCOPE - send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quoting Kathy Forer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 12:38 AM, joseph (yes=no yesno) wrote: Quoting Kathy Forer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: She really had you fooled, dear Echo. Hi Kathy, are you trying to maintain a voice of superior reason? Fuck that shit! This is what I think. It's complicated and I wasn't sure who was who*, but what I said makes the most sense to me. It's my story. And I'll stick with it. On a, er, purely subjective basis. The dear strategy is only useful against people with deep seated insecurities...and all you accomplish is beating up on somebody who is already beaten. How does telling the truth the way I see it -- given the history we've attempted to establish here of open dialogue without concern for civil polity -- beat up on anyone in particular? Who are you protecting? I meant dear, for the nymphs all loved Narcissus. Are you saying no one can be beaten unless they are insecure? What do you mean by beaten, who was beaten? You, joseph donna, or karei? Or, are there two different subjects, the one accused of NOT having deep seated insecurities and the other already beaten? It sort of makes you cruel, don't you think? How is that? Creating and maintaining a persona can be a very dangerous game. Sometimes it's kinder not to play. The only legitimate voice lost was hers, and ours reflected in hers and hers reflecting hers back again. Ad nauseum. Allen threw that babycheeks out with the bath water -- where it belongs. Do you think that a voice was lost? It seems more like hands over the ears to me. Whose hands over whose ears? If it was ours, well, for a good reason. Kandinskij walks in, posts a couple of interesting but un-remarked upon links, Eryk says he's off this list, too. K replies Have a nice time? You interject a pleasant (or not: was it code?) ditty about watermelons and summer. K replies Nobody was speaking to you
Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice
On Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 08:00 AM, Bertrand Clavez wrote: So the death monster (scroll to see his last post) is getting informed of what one is writing on the list (at least on what I'm writing on the list)...I love that nice way to do things. I got a reaaally long one. More than one. And I never read them in the first place No more from me. You win. or lose, whatever. I don't care. My first instinct on this was it was that Genius 2000 twit. Now I'm sure it is, or at least a cult-buddy. From: -IID42 Kandinskij @27+ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu Jan 9, 2003 4:32:34 AM America/New_York To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice Shall I forward the rest??? 6.1 plus 8.3 kb. I'm with Eryk. What he said.
Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice-why art?
I am thinking of Tao to be precise, sorry - they believed art to be sacred because art was thought without words
Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice
the idea of death performance art yesyesyes! the harbor seals barking bleating natochke or whatever their Fib anocci number is death hey great article on Ray dont ya think? death hm why art death couple? much love a housewife in the midwest
Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice
kleine nachtmusik ist ritalin? ja nicht eine gross mortmonster ja Mery Christmas von Stalag 8B
Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice
tell death a message from madawg- dont pick on bertrand!!! he was the only one hat wanted you on- besides me of coarse because death couple was passionate and passion by default deserves a voice- How dont we know this death couple isnt Allens personal nemesis? his ex? all of you fail art history 101 if you dont think that censure is wrong! if it distracts you then ignore if you dont like dont open he email if you cant delete spend a few extra dollars and delete Allen- I am riveted g
Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice
oh yah i forgot- maybe the fluxsters got it wrong
Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice
Honnestly, Jospeh, who wouldn't? You're really looking for trouble...let's vote! ;-) Bertrand PS: thanks Georg for the addresses, but I'm not such an addict...just a regular consummer, and I wouldn't like to get an O.D., I prefer it homeopatically. Why would you want to connote a beloved acolyte in reference to me?
Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice
Quoting Kathy Forer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: It was dear Echo, not Dear Echo. To connote a beloved acolyte, not to address you. This does not make sense - in what context was it necessary to connote a beloved acolyte? The statement was: She really had you fooled, dear Echo. The subject was K, so She references him. You were addressing your comments in response to mine - thus you means me. I would say dear Echo therefore refers to me. Why would you want to connote a beloved acolyte in reference to me? joseph donna www.electrichands.com joseph franklyn mcelroy corporate performance artist www.corporatepa.com go shopping - http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm call me 646 279 2309 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER CUPCAKEKALEIDOSCOPE - send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 09:54 AM, joseph (yes=no yesno) wrote: Are you saying no one can be beaten unless they are insecure? What do you mean by beaten, who was beaten? You, joseph donna, or karei? Or, are there two different subjects, the one accused of NOT having deep seated insecurities and the other already beaten? No - I was just pointing out that the Dear xxx strategy is only successful against opponents with insecurity, as it depends upon them succombing in the face of disdain. I haven't treated you with disdain, why are you treating me with such? Not that I am asking for kind treatment, I am more than capable of defending myself, however I would prefer it otherwise.
Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice
(to the list member that forward the posts to death monster, don't forget to post that one too) Shall I forward the rest??? 6.1 plus 8.3 kb. Yes, please, I'd be delighted to see if the rethoric is the same, or if s/he can adpat depending on the people. I'm with Eryk. What he said. Er...when?
Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice
Danke schön, liebe verruckte Hund Sie auch - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 8:27 PM Subject: Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice kleine nachtmusikistritalin?ja nicht eine gross mortmonsterja Mery Christmas von Stalag 8B
Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice
In a message dated 1/7/03 6:40:35 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: is not what was happening. Loosing a legitimate voice (sans violence) is a self-inflicted misery and fear of such happening is an insecurity (note that this is an opinion derived through inner reflection and as such, since I do not KNOW ultimate truth, is probably subjective). madawg writes: I agree with this- and to me it is far more interesting to discuss these issues and perhaps this is why Fluxus is not seen as serious enough. Believe me I am a fan of non-serious, but it is the idea or the fear of who is next-- the censure. The censure is death to an artist- its hard to put yourself out there! Most normal people can't do it! I would think that factor alone would enable you all to ignore the crap in favor of a free rein. If Fluxus has Zen roots then all is beautiful and perfect because it is.
Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice
If Fluxus has Zen roots then all is beautiful and perfect because it is. How could Fluxus have Zen roots? From my limited understanding, Zen teaches that no works are necessary to achieve enlightenment - it is instantaneous intuitive knowledge after eliminating conceptual thought. Fluxus seems very conceptual to me. joseph donna www.electrichands.com joseph franklyn mcelroy corporate performance artist www.corporatepa.com go shopping - http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm call me 646 279 2309 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER CUPCAKEKALEIDOSCOPE - send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: In a message dated 1/7/03 6:40:35 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: is not what was happening. Loosing a legitimate voice (sans violence) is a self-inflicted misery and fear of such happening is an insecurity (note that this is an opinion derived through inner reflection and as such, since I do not KNOW ultimate truth, is probably subjective). madawg writes: I agree with this- and to me it is far more interesting to discuss these issues and perhaps this is why Fluxus is not seen as serious enough. Believe me I am a fan of non-serious, but it is the idea or the fear of who is next-- the censure. The censure is death to an artist- its hard to put yourself out there! Most normal people can't do it! I would think that factor alone would enable you all to ignore the crap in favor of a free rein. If Fluxus has Zen roots then all is beautiful and perfect because it is.
Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice
How could Fluxus have Zen roots? Fluxus seems very conceptual to me. maybe because everything is not conceptual in Fluxus...
Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice
On Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 09:37 AM, joseph (yes=no yesno) wrote: This is not what was happening. Loosing a legitimate voice (sans violence) is a self-inflicted misery and fear of such happening is an insecurity (note that this is an opinion derived through inner reflection and as such, since I do not KNOW ultimate truth, is probably subjective). She really had you fooled, dear Echo. The only legitimate voice lost was hers, and ours reflected in hers and hers reflecting hers back again. Ad nauseum. Allen threw that babycheeks out with the bath water -- where it belongs.
Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice
Quoting Kathy Forer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: She really had you fooled, dear Echo. Hi Kathy, are you trying to maintain a voice of superior reason? The dear strategy is only useful against people with deep seated insecurities...and all you accomplish is beating up on somebody who is already beaten. It sort of makes you cruel, don't you think? The only legitimate voice lost was hers, and ours reflected in hers and hers reflecting hers back again. Ad nauseum. Allen threw that babycheeks out with the bath water -- where it belongs. Do you think that a voice was lost? It seems more like hands over the ears to me. joseph donna www.electrichands.com joseph franklyn mcelroy corporate performance artist www.corporatepa.com go shopping - http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm call me 646 279 2309 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER CUPCAKEKALEIDOSCOPE - send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 09:37 AM, joseph (yes=no yesno) wrote: This is not what was happening. Loosing a legitimate voice (sans violence) is a self-inflicted misery and fear of such happening is an insecurity (note that this is an opinion derived through inner reflection and as such, since I do not KNOW ultimate truth, is probably subjective). She really had you fooled, dear Echo. The only legitimate voice lost was hers, and ours reflected in hers and hers reflecting hers back again. Ad nauseum. Allen threw that babycheeks out with the bath water -- where it belongs.
Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice
René Girard's book (in french le Bouc émisaire) is worth reading (as many of Girard's books) but in fact what was underlined by the reaction I had, as I think it was the case with one of Tamas' lasts posts, is not the question of expelling this one or the other (it became obvious at one pointthat the Death Monster had to be expelled), it's the way it have been done: Tamas proposed to vote the expulsions (as he always asked for before K. exclusion's in similar cases, as for Genius 2000 if I remember well) and note to leave to a solely decider, even someone as ponderate and balanced as Allen is. This method has some obvious advantages: first, the decision is collective, so noone is to become the scapegoat for having taken it, second, it maintains a strong concern between the list members on what's happening on the list, third it avoids opinions to degenerate into personal flames by the collective controlallowed through the vote. The list owners/administrators could easily count the votes (yes/no/abstention) and give the result, as anyone else on the list could do. I'm sure that the provocative and critical of expressing himself didn't facilitate the understanding of Tamas' opinion, but I would like to say that Tamas lives in Bulgary, is from a generation that endured the soviet socialism and the "democratic centralism"(which, as everyone knows, was anything but democratic), and have been active as an artist under these conditions. This is no excuse, but somehow, explains his attachment to a democratic way of taking decision. Why not try to develop his idea for the next exclusion(s)? Bertrand BTW, where is Joseph Y(v)es? I haven't read anything from him since K.'s exclusion. Did he resigned,or was expelledtoo? A listmember I've met a few days ago, thought K./Y(v)es could be the same person, playing a game on the list. Any clue about this possibility? Joseph, if you're still here, please, say something... And Armadill0 (apparently a resurgence of the Death monster, from the style used) was he expelled too? I missed that one, if his expulsion post came to the list.
Fw: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice
- Original Message - From: Bertrand Clavez To: Fluxlist Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 12:07 PM Subject: Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice René Girard's book (in french le Bouc émisaire) is worth reading (as many of Girard's books) but in fact what was underlined by the reaction I had, as I think it was the case with one of Tamas' lasts posts, is not the question of expelling this one or the other (it became obvious at one pointthat the Death Monster had to be expelled), it's the way it have been done: Tamas proposed to vote the expulsions (as he always asked for before K. exclusion's in similar cases, as for Genius 2000 if I remember well) and note to leave to a solely decider, even someone as ponderate and balanced as Allen is. This method has some obvious advantages: first, the decision is collective, so noone is to become the scapegoat for having taken it, second, it maintains a strong concern between the list members on what's happening on the list, third it avoids opinions to degenerate into personal flames by the collective controlallowed through the vote. The list owners/administrators could easily count the votes (yes/no/abstention) and give the result, as anyone else on the list could do. I'm sure that the provocative and critical of expressing himself didn't facilitate the understanding of Tamas' opinion, but I would like to say that Tamas lives in Bulgary, is from a generation that endured the soviet socialism and the "democratic centralism"(which, as everyone knows, was anything but democratic), and have been active as an artist under these conditions. This is no excuse, but somehow, explains his attachment to a democratic way of taking decision. Why not try to develop his idea for the next exclusion(s)? Bertrand BTW, where is Joseph Y(v)es? I haven't read anything from him since K.'s exclusion. Did he resigned,or was expelledtoo? A listmember I've met a few days ago, thought K./Y(v)es could be the same person, playing a game on the list. Any clue about this possibility? Joseph, if you're still here, please, say something... And Armadill0 (apparently a resurgence of the Death monster, from the style used) was he expelled too? I missed that one, if his expulsion post came to the list.
Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice
Quoting Kathy Forer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: and black undertow. She was a bloodsucker and sought, or didn't seek but effected, by an entropicizing presence and Joseph's (intentionally or not) act of becoming her scapegoat/alter-ego, to deprive everyone of a legitimate voice. This is not what was happening. Loosing a legitimate voice (sans violence) is a self-inflicted misery and fear of such happening is an insecurity (note that this is an opinion derived through inner reflection and as such, since I do not KNOW ultimate truth, is probably subjective). joseph donna www.electrichands.com joseph franklyn mcelroy corporate performance artist www.corporatepa.com go shopping - http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm call me 646 279 2309 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER CUPCAKEKALEIDOSCOPE - send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quoting Kathy Forer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Monday, January 6, 2003, at 12:37 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: thanks to NONE of you folks I finally figured out how to attach others email to mine, another step to being less annoying. I have no idea what you mean about a scapegoat. All I know is that the nazis wanted things nice and clean and artists werent exactly included in that group-were they? The Church plays its game/ other groups and clubs play their games and if you dont want to play the game you start your own- I understand that, but since this is my game-or so I thought- I thought I could have an effect and/or a voice. So far I cant believe Bertrand and I are the only ones dubious- maybe we were always the last ones picked for kickball-madawg madawg, since you so effectively figured out how to quote/attach an email, and the one you chose was mine, I suppose that makes me batter up to try to elucidate, or more likely bowdlerize, what I said and meant. The history of scapegoating is long and rich and you're picked on a couple of the most grievously terrible incidences. A friend of mine, an atheist son of Dutch missionaries, speaks of a theory about religion as a system of scapegoating. There's a book about it, http://tinyurl.com/45u9, Things Hidden Since the Foundation of the World, by Rene Girard, Michael Metteer (Translator), Stephen Bann (Translator). I labeled the happening on the list by the zaphod 42 death kandy person as an overt act of scapegoating. zaphod beetlebrox is a mass nemesis and black undertow. She was a bloodsucker and sought, or didn't seek but effected, by an entropicizing presence and Joseph's (intentionally or not) act of becoming her scapegoat/alter-ego, to deprive everyone of a legitimate voice. You'd say the sky looks blue to me, and the deathbot would reply what can you little worm possibly know about the sky? Or, in reply to deathbot, why aren't you my friend? she might answer, how can you presume to know what friendship is about or especially whether it is anything that would interest us? and so on, vastly more appositive. (I didn't follow it closely.) Provoked by very little, Zaphod's deathbot slew people and made each one her scapegoat, especially the chosen one, Joey. It seemed all a little game, Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, without the babelfish. Did you really want to play with Joseph and death kandi? You can email them off-list and one or another might oblige for free, though role-playing is always more fun in a public forum, and possibly likely to get sinister in private. See if Eryk knows anything. If it's a game of kickball and someone slapping kicking an impudent buddy upside the head, and everyone else starts to do the same, do you still want to play? To become a head-kicker, perhaps worse, perhaps better, but manipulated by a non-reactive substance? You'd learn about yourself in the process, for sure, but maybe a lot of us on this list just have decided that trail's been trod. Maybe we're tired. Maybe we've forgotten or never knew how to play. Maybe not. At some point a judgment is made. That doesn't mean it's a unilateral fascist judgment, more a common law to protect the community. Were we protected from ourselves? Sunday Dec 15, -IID42 Kandinskij @27+ (A) sent first post 1:21 AM EST, Eryk Salvaggio (B) said he got off the list at 2:07AM and A replied at 5:15 AM Have a nice time? At 9:20 PM joseph (yes) aka Joseph Franklyn McElroy Cor[porat]e [Per]form[ance] Art[ist] (C) responded to A's response to B and we were all suckered in, not really knowing what was some kind of private joke or conceit. It degenerated rapidly. It's fine to appreciate anarchy and even practice it, but that doesn't seem to be how fluxlist has defined itself. Fluxlist has worked on developing to a certain small degree a common standard or purpose, which takes it out of the anarchy category-list. Maybe fluxus was more anarchic http://www.angelfire.com/ak4/Forum/Beats.html, but they were also more Zen. If they were politically anarchist, they were idealistic
Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice
In a message dated 1/4/03 1:05:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Scapegoat! Scapegoat! Let's all go scape a goat we don't like!" Tag, you're it. oops, what about if the death monster wants to kick us off our nice little game grid? Maybe the monster can have it all to herself. We didn't really like it much and death monster thought we were pretty boring just playing fluxlist by ourselves. Oooh, let's play death with death monster. Tag, you're it! No, me, no me, I want to be insulted by death machine monster! Or by one of her minions. Bring it on, deathbot. It'll happen sooner or later, why not destroy our world now? At lest we can say we were idealistic. Or is that nihilistic? "fuckyoufuckyoufuckyou, every one." Before you vote, remember to ask yourself, is death object a scapegoat target or a scapegoat perpetrator? http://www.scapegoat.demon.co.uk/undoing.htm thanks to NONE of you folks I finally figured out how to attach others email to mine, another step to being less annoying. I have no idea what you mean about a scapegoat. All I know is that the nazis wanted things nice and clean and artists werent exactly included in that group-were they? The Church plays its game/ other groups and clubs play their games and if you dont want to play the game you start your own- I understand that, but since this is my game-or so I thought- I thought I could have an effect and/or a voice. So far I cant believe Bertrand and I are the only ones dubious- maybe we were always the last ones picked for kickball-madawg
Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice
On Monday, January 6, 2003, at 12:37 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: thanks to NONE of you folks I finally figured out how to attach others email to mine, another step to being less annoying. I have no idea what you mean about a scapegoat. All I know is that the nazis wanted things nice and clean and artists werent exactly included in that group-were they? The Church plays its game/ other groups and clubs play their games and if you dont want to play the game you start your own- I understand that, but since this is my game-or so I thought- I thought I could have an effect and/or a voice. So far I cant believe Bertrand and I are the only ones dubious- maybe we were always the last ones picked for kickball-madawg madawg, since you so effectively figured out how to quote/attach an email, and the one you chose was mine, I suppose that makes me "batter up" to try to elucidate, or more likely bowdlerize, what I said and meant. The history of scapegoating is long and rich and you're picked on a couple of the most grievously terrible incidences. A friend of mine, an atheist son of Dutch missionaries, speaks of a theory about religion as a system of scapegoating. There's a book about it, http://tinyurl.com/45u9, "Things Hidden Since the Foundation of the World," by Rene Girard, Michael Metteer (Translator), Stephen Bann (Translator). I labeled the happening on the list by the zaphod 42 death kandy person as an overt act of scapegoating. zaphod beetlebrox is a mass nemesis and black undertow. She was a bloodsucker and sought, or didn't seek but effected, by an entropicizing presence and Joseph's (intentionally or not) act of becoming her scapegoat/alter-ego, to deprive everyone of a legitimate voice. You'd say "the sky looks blue to me," and the deathbot would reply "what can you little worm possibly know about the sky?" Or, in reply to "deathbot, why aren't you my friend?" she might answer, "how can you presume to know what friendship is about or especially whether it is anything that would interest us?" and so on, vastly more appositive. (I didn't follow it closely.) Provoked by very little, Zaphod's deathbot slew people and made each one her scapegoat, especially the chosen one, Joey. It seemed all a little game, "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy," without the babelfish. Did you really want to play with Joseph and death kandi? You can email them off-list and one or another might oblige for free, though role-playing is always more fun in a public forum, and possibly likely to get sinister in private. See if Eryk knows anything. If it's a game of kickball and someone slapping kicking an impudent buddy upside the head, and everyone else starts to do the same, do you still want to play? To become a head-kicker, perhaps worse, perhaps better, but manipulated by a non-reactive substance? You'd learn about yourself in the process, for sure, but maybe a lot of us on this list just have decided that trail's been trod. Maybe we're tired. Maybe we've forgotten or never knew how to play. Maybe not. At some point a judgment is made. That doesn't mean it's a unilateral fascist judgment, more a common law to protect the community. Were we "protected" from ourselves? Sunday Dec 15, "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+" (A) sent first post 1:21 AM EST, Eryk Salvaggio (B) said he got off the list at 2:07AM and A replied at 5:15 AM "Have a nice time?" At 9:20 PM "joseph (yes)" aka "Joseph Franklyn McElroy Cor[porat]e [Per]form[ance] Art[ist]" (C) responded to A's response to B and we were all suckered in, not really knowing what was some kind of private joke or conceit. It degenerated rapidly. It's fine to appreciate anarchy and even practice it, but that doesn't seem to be how fluxlist has defined itself. Fluxlist has worked on developing to a certain small degree a "common standard or purpose," which takes it out of the anarchy category-list. Maybe fluxus was more anarchic http://www.angelfire.com/ak4/Forum/Beats.html>, but they were also more Zen. If they were politically anarchist, they were "idealistic anarchistic," not "nihilistic anarchistic" as is Zaphod's death terminal Kandinskij 42/27, karei. But the times are different as well. My personal choice is for suspension, and for exile only in the event of something really heinous. "And so, as Tiny Tim observed, God Bless Us, Every One!" (or, if you prefer, "fuckyoufuckyoufuckyou, every one") -- Kathy, who has zero fluxus credentials though I once served as list admin dutifully in the summer of 2000 when nothing much happened except 1. Error-message loops, 2. Mail queue loops, 3. Spit-back loops and a few people having intractable subscription/unsubscription problems. It was the summer my dog Sam got irrevocably ill and I couldn't make him better no matter what I tried. And also Patricia being very compassionate (about Sam and forwarding me about Rod's "Calicodependency" and something about a lost sweater or scarf). I imagined sometimes Mr. Samuel was heartbroken
Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice
Am trying to limit contributions to one a day-- I like the idea of the globe, but I would gladly contribute to any type of box --I think fluxus should be changed to fluxis: it shouldnt be based on history- its suppose to be based on now, no? -- I am always suspicious of nice-it creeps me out more than Death couple to eliminate people from a movement of art that claims to be forward thinking -- what is wrong with you people? Why cant you self censure and use your delete buttons? -- I didnt vote for these eliminations so it is not democratic -- as far as insults go I was far more insulted by Carol than Death couple -- I am with Bertrand you are wrong to kick people off- just ignore what you think is crap-what are you all afraid of? -- it is far more important to talk about this kind of thing than talk about freakin boxes madawg-nice? fresh air? give me a break!
Re: FLUXLIST: Re: New subscription process not nice
Scapegoat! Scapegoat! Let's all go scape a goat we don't like! Tag, you're it. oops, what about if the death monster wants to kick us off our nice little game grid? Maybe the monster can have it all to herself. We didn't really like it much and death monster thought we were pretty boring just playing fluxlist by ourselves. Oooh, let's play death with death monster. Tag, you're it! No, me, no me, I want to be insulted by death machine monster! Or by one of her minions. Bring it on, deathbot. It'll happen sooner or later, why not destroy our world now? At lest we can say we were idealistic. Or is that nihilistic? fuckyoufuckyoufuckyou, every one. Before you vote, remember to ask yourself, is death object a scapegoat target or a scapegoat perpetrator? http://www.scapegoat.demon.co.uk/undoing.htm
