Re: FLUXLIST: Fluxus vs fluxus
In France, PhD is PhD, in arts or in biology, it's the same diploma, which opens the same qualification and the same salary when teaching... it's only that there is far less money for the arts research, than for biological research. Regarding Religions, I guess it's another matter...Christians have been renamed, and renamed themselves a lot in history (catholics, protestants, othodox, + all the tiny christian sects, as adventists, jehovah witnesses, +all the "heresies", monotonous, manicheists, cathares, etc., + all the different orders in the catholic church -which sometimes had genuine wars between them, as franciscans and dominicans, jesuits and jansenists, benedictans and cistercians etc. For sure all where Christians, and had wars altogether for a couple a centuries (and I don't speak about the Boers wars, and the situation in Ulster until today). Besides, Mr Bush is currently discovering that there are some deep and huge and bloody differences between sunnits and wahabits, chiits and hachemits...exactely the same that he is discovering that it's not so easy to control the loubavitchs in Israel. All this shows that it's not so easy to compare Fluxus to the religious situation (BTW Ken did a very good communication about the relationship between Fluxus and Theology when we did that symposium and concert in the Le Corbusier's dominican convent near Lyon back in March 2003, didn't you Ken?). May be could we compare the whole experimental art to the monotheism, with all the small sects and great trends, illuminated and genuine prophets, and regarding this situation-i.e. the same god for everyone- one DID changed the names!!! Bests, Bertrand - Original Message - From: "Don Boyd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 9:33 PM Subject: Re: FLUXLIST: Fluxus vs fluxus > Anne, Another analogy or perhaps two. > 1 Analogy to academia; In the visual arts there is resistance on granting > equal stature to the Master of Fine Arts degree with the PhD. Same amount of > years of study, etc. The difference is one is VERBAL the other is Visual. > (Like the difference between women doing the same work as men- they don't > get equal pay. (Visual artists don't get equal pay with PhD's) I proposed a > solution- > Grant all practicing MFA's an honorary PhD. Do you think that will ever > happen? After 35 years of teaching I finally arrived at a school that gives > equal pay, but now I'm an adjunct. Ha! > > 2 Analogy to religion. Did we rename Christians anywhere in history? Are the > disiciples ranked higher in heaven? (Maybe by we left here on earth, but not > in heaven! This applies to all religions I think) -Don > > _ > Our best dial-up offer is back. Get MSN Dial-up Internet Service for 6 > months @ $9.95/month now! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup > > >
Re: FLUXLIST: Fluxus vs fluxus
Anne, Another analogy or perhaps two. 1 Analogy to academia; In the visual arts there is resistance on granting equal stature to the Master of Fine Arts degree with the PhD. Same amount of years of study, etc. The difference is one is VERBAL the other is Visual. (Like the difference between women doing the same work as men- they don't get equal pay. (Visual artists don't get equal pay with PhD's) I proposed a solution- Grant all practicing MFA's an honorary PhD. Do you think that will ever happen? After 35 years of teaching I finally arrived at a school that gives equal pay, but now I'm an adjunct. Ha! 2 Analogy to religion. Did we rename Christians anywhere in history? Are the disiciples ranked higher in heaven? (Maybe by we left here on earth, but not in heaven! This applies to all religions I think) -Don _ Our best dial-up offer is back. Get MSN Dial-up Internet Service for 6 months @ $9.95/month now! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup
Re: FLUXLIST: Fluxus vs fluxus
Amy, The Spirit of Fluxus is that we do NOT RENAME it! Fluxus LIVES! -Don _ Cell phone switch rules are taking effect find out more here. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/consumeradvocate.armx
Re: FLUXLIST: Fluxus vs fluxus
hi ann, first of all CONGRATULATIONS for your show on 18 december. where is it going to be shown? when you settle down after all of this we will all enjoy hearing more about the fluxfest and seeing some of the photos. odd about the 'fine art' students but it is quite possible they aren't that well informed about fluxus. i have ordered hannah higgens book and am looking forward to reading and learning more and she surely has had an inside seat on all of it. best of luck with your show, carol xx Ann Klefstad wrote: > Yes, show is documented, digi photos of the show itself, and video of > performances (2 evenings), Hannah's, and a performance by music students and > art education students (oddly, the "Fine Art" students didn't participate. > The art ed students came in numbers) of a new composition based on some of > Dick's sound/typography pieces, and of some of the event scores in the show. > > The third evening of performance, the flux-related one of regional > performers (dance, music, etc) had to be indefinitely postponed as, a day > before it was scheduled to happen, the venue (the venerable NorShor Theater, > a stalwart producer of interesting and odd performance of all kinds, our own > little Kitchen/CBGBs/LaMaMa avatar) closed abruptly, locked door, and we > couldn't even get in to get PA to move performance. Arg. It will happen, but > it'll have to wait til after my own show opens Dec 18. > > As will the construction of website with these images. Will happen, will > happen! Promise. > > AK > > On 11/26/03 10:14 AM, "Carol Starr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > hi ann, > > > > good to hear 'first hand' report on fluxus and your conversation with hannah > > higgins. > > could you tell us more about the 'fluxfest' at tweed? do you have any photos > > of > > it? > > > > bests, carol > > xx > > > > Ann Klefstad wrote: > > > >> Brief convrsation with Hannah Higgins when she was here to do a "performance > >> lecture" of / on her father's work. Asked her about the related > >> controversies of Maciunas->Friedman->NewFlux and (dethrone Maciunas who was > >> never really king anyway) -> OldGuard -> No New Fluxus! Got something like > >> this, although this is my own take, not Hannah's, of what seemed to have > >> happened: Maciunas in his dotage assuming right to control and designate > >> who was who and what in Fluxus, a right or privilege he hadn't been granted > >> by anyone else (reminiscent of Breton but w/ differences), set Ken up for a > >> fall by designating him Crown Prince, to many OldGuard types' dismay and > >> annoyance. Rather than dealing with Ken on the terms of his own work, there > >> apparently has been a sort of old-New-York-Dowager attempt to just sort of > >> snub and freeze him out of "our people" on the part of the Old > >> Dowagers/OldFlxGuard. (I picture tiaras. "fun" parties. Finger sandwiches > >> with real fingers.) And anyone else that is seen as "new people" are > >> apparently regarded in the same way--interlopers trying to become part of > >> the in group. This seems like a really silly way to be artists, but > >> hey--takes all kinds. Although from this story it seems not everyone feels > >> that way. > >> > >> One could, to gratify the Old Guard, take the subaltern position and become > >> fans, groupies, "Fluxites." (I kind of like the mineral air of this term . . > >> .) Or one could could, as Bowman proposes so interestingly, just take the > >> word for the people, demoticize it, decapitalize it, make it a common noun, > >> and be fluxus. > >> > >> Makes evident the downside of having a cohesive community that has a long > >> history of working together (doubtless a wonderful thing in itself): it can > >> tend to make one comfey and suspicious of others who want to share that > >> comfort. Or whom you suspect of that motive. Very like a university > >> department in the division between tenured and adjunct faculty. > >> > >> Jesus Christ. > >> > >> Too poor for capital letters, > >> > >> AK > >> > >> On 11/25/03 8:47 AM, "Sol Nte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > - Original Message - > From: "allen bukoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writ > "few if any of the remaining original-Fluxus artists or official Fluxus > Art > Historians have much of any desire or interest to support an entirely new > Fluxus with new people and new approaches. Perhaps I am wrong about " > >>> > >>> Allen, > >>> > >>> I think that a couple of years ago Fluxlist got hit quite hard by what you > >>> describe and from which it never really recovered. > >>> > >>> It's a shame you haven't kept up all the sites and hard work you did to > >>> establish Fluxus on the web, you were really pioneering stuff, you know. > >>> > >>> > >>> cheers, > >>> > >>> Sol. > >>> > >>> > >
Re: FLUXLIST: Fluxus vs fluxus
weebles wooble but they don't fall down http://www.got2haveit.com/pic2/circusringmasterex.jpg OK, so if you had to rename new fluxus, what would you call it?? I've always been partial to weebles..mostly the weeble circus..could we call it weeble circus?..seriously though, what would you rename it as
Re: FLUXLIST: Fluxus vs fluxus
OK, so if you had to rename new fluxus, what would you call it?? I've always been partial to weebles..mostly the weeble circus..could we call it weeble circus?..seriously though, what would you rename it as if you had the opportunity? amy b casey happy turkey(or not) and pumpkin pie! --- Sol Nte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >- Original Message - > >From: "allen bukoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writ > >"few if any of the remaining original-Fluxus > artists or official Fluxus > >Art > >Historians have much of any desire or interest to > support an entirely new > >Fluxus with new people and new approaches. Perhaps > I am wrong about " > > Allen, > > I think that a couple of years ago Fluxlist got hit > quite hard by what you > describe and from which it never really recovered. > > It's a shame you haven't kept up all the sites and > hard work you did to > establish Fluxus on the web, you were really > pioneering stuff, you know. > > > cheers, > > Sol. > > __ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/
Re: FLUXLIST: Fluxus vs fluxus
Yes, show is documented, digi photos of the show itself, and video of performances (2 evenings), Hannah's, and a performance by music students and art education students (oddly, the "Fine Art" students didn't participate. The art ed students came in numbers) of a new composition based on some of Dick's sound/typography pieces, and of some of the event scores in the show. The third evening of performance, the flux-related one of regional performers (dance, music, etc) had to be indefinitely postponed as, a day before it was scheduled to happen, the venue (the venerable NorShor Theater, a stalwart producer of interesting and odd performance of all kinds, our own little Kitchen/CBGBs/LaMaMa avatar) closed abruptly, locked door, and we couldn't even get in to get PA to move performance. Arg. It will happen, but it'll have to wait til after my own show opens Dec 18. As will the construction of website with these images. Will happen, will happen! Promise. AK On 11/26/03 10:14 AM, "Carol Starr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > hi ann, > > good to hear 'first hand' report on fluxus and your conversation with hannah > higgins. > could you tell us more about the 'fluxfest' at tweed? do you have any photos > of > it? > > bests, carol > xx > > Ann Klefstad wrote: > >> Brief convrsation with Hannah Higgins when she was here to do a "performance >> lecture" of / on her father's work. Asked her about the related >> controversies of Maciunas->Friedman->NewFlux and (dethrone Maciunas who was >> never really king anyway) -> OldGuard -> No New Fluxus! Got something like >> this, although this is my own take, not Hannah's, of what seemed to have >> happened: Maciunas in his dotage assuming right to control and designate >> who was who and what in Fluxus, a right or privilege he hadn't been granted >> by anyone else (reminiscent of Breton but w/ differences), set Ken up for a >> fall by designating him Crown Prince, to many OldGuard types' dismay and >> annoyance. Rather than dealing with Ken on the terms of his own work, there >> apparently has been a sort of old-New-York-Dowager attempt to just sort of >> snub and freeze him out of "our people" on the part of the Old >> Dowagers/OldFlxGuard. (I picture tiaras. "fun" parties. Finger sandwiches >> with real fingers.) And anyone else that is seen as "new people" are >> apparently regarded in the same way--interlopers trying to become part of >> the in group. This seems like a really silly way to be artists, but >> hey--takes all kinds. Although from this story it seems not everyone feels >> that way. >> >> One could, to gratify the Old Guard, take the subaltern position and become >> fans, groupies, "Fluxites." (I kind of like the mineral air of this term . . >> .) Or one could could, as Bowman proposes so interestingly, just take the >> word for the people, demoticize it, decapitalize it, make it a common noun, >> and be fluxus. >> >> Makes evident the downside of having a cohesive community that has a long >> history of working together (doubtless a wonderful thing in itself): it can >> tend to make one comfey and suspicious of others who want to share that >> comfort. Or whom you suspect of that motive. Very like a university >> department in the division between tenured and adjunct faculty. >> >> Jesus Christ. >> >> Too poor for capital letters, >> >> AK >> >> On 11/25/03 8:47 AM, "Sol Nte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> - Original Message - From: "allen bukoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writ "few if any of the remaining original-Fluxus artists or official Fluxus Art Historians have much of any desire or interest to support an entirely new Fluxus with new people and new approaches. Perhaps I am wrong about " >>> >>> Allen, >>> >>> I think that a couple of years ago Fluxlist got hit quite hard by what you >>> describe and from which it never really recovered. >>> >>> It's a shame you haven't kept up all the sites and hard work you did to >>> establish Fluxus on the web, you were really pioneering stuff, you know. >>> >>> >>> cheers, >>> >>> Sol. >>> >>> >
Re: FLUXLIST: Fluxus vs fluxus
hi ann, good to hear 'first hand' report on fluxus and your conversation with hannah higgins. could you tell us more about the 'fluxfest' at tweed? do you have any photos of it? bests, carol xx Ann Klefstad wrote: > Brief convrsation with Hannah Higgins when she was here to do a "performance > lecture" of / on her father's work. Asked her about the related > controversies of Maciunas->Friedman->NewFlux and (dethrone Maciunas who was > never really king anyway) -> OldGuard -> No New Fluxus! Got something like > this, although this is my own take, not Hannah's, of what seemed to have > happened: Maciunas in his dotage assuming right to control and designate > who was who and what in Fluxus, a right or privilege he hadn't been granted > by anyone else (reminiscent of Breton but w/ differences), set Ken up for a > fall by designating him Crown Prince, to many OldGuard types' dismay and > annoyance. Rather than dealing with Ken on the terms of his own work, there > apparently has been a sort of old-New-York-Dowager attempt to just sort of > snub and freeze him out of "our people" on the part of the Old > Dowagers/OldFlxGuard. (I picture tiaras. "fun" parties. Finger sandwiches > with real fingers.) And anyone else that is seen as "new people" are > apparently regarded in the same way--interlopers trying to become part of > the in group. This seems like a really silly way to be artists, but > hey--takes all kinds. Although from this story it seems not everyone feels > that way. > > One could, to gratify the Old Guard, take the subaltern position and become > fans, groupies, "Fluxites." (I kind of like the mineral air of this term . . > .) Or one could could, as Bowman proposes so interestingly, just take the > word for the people, demoticize it, decapitalize it, make it a common noun, > and be fluxus. > > Makes evident the downside of having a cohesive community that has a long > history of working together (doubtless a wonderful thing in itself): it can > tend to make one comfey and suspicious of others who want to share that > comfort. Or whom you suspect of that motive. Very like a university > department in the division between tenured and adjunct faculty. > > Jesus Christ. > > Too poor for capital letters, > > AK > > On 11/25/03 8:47 AM, "Sol Nte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> - Original Message - > >> From: "allen bukoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writ > >> "few if any of the remaining original-Fluxus artists or official Fluxus > >> Art > >> Historians have much of any desire or interest to support an entirely new > >> Fluxus with new people and new approaches. Perhaps I am wrong about " > > > > Allen, > > > > I think that a couple of years ago Fluxlist got hit quite hard by what you > > describe and from which it never really recovered. > > > > It's a shame you haven't kept up all the sites and hard work you did to > > establish Fluxus on the web, you were really pioneering stuff, you know. > > > > > > cheers, > > > > Sol. > > > >
Re: FLUXLIST: Fluxus vs fluxus
> > we don't say, 'how's the New weather" even though what we are asking about is > very new, > we say, 'how's the WEATHER'. hee hee i like it! nobody's really tried to lay claim to the weather, and where as there may be many wonderful books on the weather no one's trying to sell it. i like the link to two forces of nature here. whereas all the elements of 'weather' differ from each other in varying degrees from the barely perceptible to the downright, absolutely, completely different (what a wordsmith!), so do the elements which constitute that way of being, living or making art, music, things, books whatever which is often linked to a certain problematic 'F' word. here is the same message rewritten using sol nte's fffo file translator and 2 f words! > > cf kfk's uff, 'xfc'u sxf kfc cffsxfx" fufk sxffux cxfs cf fxf fufuku fuffs uu > ufxf kfc, > cf uff, 'xfc'u sxf cffsxfx'. xff xff u uuff us! kfufkf'u xffuuf sxufk sf uff cufuc sf sxf cffsxfx, fkk cxfxf fu sxfxf cff uf cfkf cfkkfxlfu ufffu fk sxf cffsxfx kf fkf'u sxfuku sf ufuu us. u uuff sxf uukf sf scf lfxcfu fl kfsfxf xfxf. cxfxffu fuu sxf fufcfksu fl 'cffsxfx' kullfx lxfc ffcx fsxfx uk ufxfuku kfuxffu lxfc sxf ufxfuf lfxcflsuuuf sf sxf kfckxuuxs, fuufufsfuf, cfclufsfuf kullfxfks (cxfs f cfxkucusx!), uf kf sxf fufcfksu cxucx cfkususfsf sxfs cff fl ufuku, ku fx cffuku fxs, cfuuc, sxukuu, ufffu cxfsfufx cxucx uu flsfk uukffk sf f cfxsfuk lxfuufcfsuc 'l' cfxk.
Re: FLUXLIST: Fluxus vs fluxus
Brief convrsation with Hannah Higgins when she was here to do a "performance lecture" of / on her father's work. Asked her about the related controversies of Maciunas->Friedman->NewFlux and (dethrone Maciunas who was never really king anyway) -> OldGuard -> No New Fluxus! Got something like this, although this is my own take, not Hannah's, of what seemed to have happened: Maciunas in his dotage assuming right to control and designate who was who and what in Fluxus, a right or privilege he hadn't been granted by anyone else (reminiscent of Breton but w/ differences), set Ken up for a fall by designating him Crown Prince, to many OldGuard types' dismay and annoyance. Rather than dealing with Ken on the terms of his own work, there apparently has been a sort of old-New-York-Dowager attempt to just sort of snub and freeze him out of "our people" on the part of the Old Dowagers/OldFlxGuard. (I picture tiaras. "fun" parties. Finger sandwiches with real fingers.) And anyone else that is seen as "new people" are apparently regarded in the same way--interlopers trying to become part of the in group. This seems like a really silly way to be artists, but hey--takes all kinds. Although from this story it seems not everyone feels that way. One could, to gratify the Old Guard, take the subaltern position and become fans, groupies, "Fluxites." (I kind of like the mineral air of this term . . .) Or one could could, as Bowman proposes so interestingly, just take the word for the people, demoticize it, decapitalize it, make it a common noun, and be fluxus. Makes evident the downside of having a cohesive community that has a long history of working together (doubtless a wonderful thing in itself): it can tend to make one comfey and suspicious of others who want to share that comfort. Or whom you suspect of that motive. Very like a university department in the division between tenured and adjunct faculty. Jesus Christ. Too poor for capital letters, AK On 11/25/03 8:47 AM, "Sol Nte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> - Original Message - >> From: "allen bukoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writ >> "few if any of the remaining original-Fluxus artists or official Fluxus >> Art >> Historians have much of any desire or interest to support an entirely new >> Fluxus with new people and new approaches. Perhaps I am wrong about " > > Allen, > > I think that a couple of years ago Fluxlist got hit quite hard by what you > describe and from which it never really recovered. > > It's a shame you haven't kept up all the sites and hard work you did to > establish Fluxus on the web, you were really pioneering stuff, you know. > > > cheers, > > Sol. > >
Re: FLUXLIST: Fluxus vs fluxus
to alan and allen and the rest of 'thou' why say New Fluxus? why not just say FLUXUS we don't say, 'how's the New weather" even though what we are asking about is very new, we say, 'how's the WEATHER'. i know that may be simplistic but for me there is only one FLUXUS be it old, new or what i am doing or not doing right now. which could be anything. for example, today looms large as 'shopping for food for thanksgiving' and that could definitely be an event, ie. alan's fruitscores and allen's many food events. of course all of these are recent (new) fluxus but IMHO very 'fluxus'. i need another cup of tea it's 4 degrees F this morning. bests, carol xx Alan Bowman wrote: > >- Original Message - > >From: "allen bukoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writ > >"few if any of the remaining original-Fluxus artists or official Fluxus > Art > >Historians have much of any desire or interest to support an entirely new > >Fluxus with new people and new approaches. Perhaps I am wrong about " > > Dear Allen > > As you know, I've been fortunate to work with a number of the remaining > Fluxus old-guard. On the whole I've found them appreciative and supportive > of my work. (Ben even bought a piece, although he appears to be using a > different definition of the term 'bought' than the one I'm used to, and he > seems to have lost the ability to reply to emails too! I may have to send > the boys round). I am though only one person > > ++ However, I think you're right Allen. And I think that it's the word > Fluxus that causes the problems. As we all know, quite a few of these > artists are not averse to distancing themselves from fluxus and then > realigning themselves at opportune moments - in a way they help to > perpetuate the so-called band-wagon they often like to accuse others of > jumping on. Some do actively support new artists and work but I don't think > that a show of 'New Fluxus' will ever be organised by one of them - due > simply to this problem with the name. > > This "problem" exists because people believe it is a problem. If you don't > believe it is a problem then..perhaps it isn't really one. > > I really don't know, I have struggled with this dilemna of that word Fluxus. > I don't see myself as a Fluxus artist, mainly for 'historical' reasons, but > have used 'Flux' derivatives and variations in my work and descriptions > thereof. On several 'professional' occasions I have been introduced as a > fluxus artist, and when I have tried to explain that this is not strictly > true - been met by blank faces and a sort of "well what ARE you then if not > fluxus?" > > The response being "actually I'm not sure" My work is conceptually > based, I suppose, but may involve virtually any medium and any, however > banal, motive for execution. I make serious pieces and downright practical > jokes and puns, drawings, film, video, music anything I feel like - how do I > classify that? I really don't know. Not that I particularly want to, only > when speaking to curious people. > > Anyway, mid sneezing fit and trip to make a coffee, I appeared to have lost > my thread a bit (Get to the Point Bowman!!!) > Oh yes, perhaps this cursed word Fluxus now has more meaning than was at > first intended. Modern languages are constantly in a state of change (flux! > ha ha!). English in the UK and in Europe, and I assume the US is gradually > changing, we assimilate new verbs (to e-email) and eliminate defunct terms > and grammatical elements (does anyone know the correct use of the classicly > misused 'thou'?). In Italian we can now 'chattare', 'call-backare' etc etc. > In my experience people are beginning to use fluxus to describe this sort of > 'difficult to describe' art practice, which *is* hard to pin down. After 40 > years, Fluxus has given us fluxus. > > Whether this is right or wrong, a testament to the effect of Fluxus or a > slur on its good name, a credit to the original protagonists or an insult - > I don't know. > This 'fluxus' is not necessarily 'Fluxus', it is perhaps the 'New' stuff > that you where talking about earlier. Those of us involved in this new > 'fluxus' where not involved in 'Fluxus'. Perhaps fluxus is not Fluxus after > all, it may involve the same ideals and sensibilities (of which examples are > many, many, many and very, very different in aspect - compare Geoff > Hendricks to Al Hansen), but does not include some of the key (physical) > elements of Fluxus such as Maciunas*, Wiesbaden* or whatever > *NB- these are just examples to illustrate the differences between what I > think Allen is into and what history has transformed into this mythical > beast called Fluxus. > I'm not even sure that the 'original' artists can classify or quantify > Fluxus now, after 40 years - some deny it's existence yet perform at Fluxus > festivals, others are more than happy to use Fluxus in their works and > publications as a concrete reference point and source of 'identity'. > > This is
Re: FLUXLIST: Fluxus vs fluxus
>- Original Message - >From: "allen bukoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writ >"few if any of the remaining original-Fluxus artists or official Fluxus >Art >Historians have much of any desire or interest to support an entirely new >Fluxus with new people and new approaches. Perhaps I am wrong about " Allen, I think that a couple of years ago Fluxlist got hit quite hard by what you describe and from which it never really recovered. It's a shame you haven't kept up all the sites and hard work you did to establish Fluxus on the web, you were really pioneering stuff, you know. cheers, Sol.
