Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
Am 16.02.2013 20:45, schrieb geneb: On Sat, 16 Feb 2013, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: I tried something like this before and I was suprised at the dearth of Lazarus and FreePascal bloggers. Getting Lazarus and FPC developers, (let alone users) to blog about their experiences is like pulling teeth.I think a law should be passed requiring FPC users to blog about their usage and experiences at least twice a year. Maybe not everyone is so enthousiast about blogs as you ? I agree with Florian; I prefer to work on FPC. While I can certainly understand your point of view, the more people that are talking about FPC and Lazarus, the more people that will become exposed to it. Isn't the svn rss feed not the best opportunity to talk about fpc/lazarus :)? ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] Compiling arm-embedded fpc
Am 14.02.2013 21:34, schrieb Michael Ring:
I did a grep through the fpc sourcecode and found a reference in
./compiler/systems/t_linux.pas in an arm related ifdef section
add(' .note.gnu.build-id : { *(.note.gnu.build-id) }');
so perhaps this is really missing in arm-embedded target.
This is mainly needed for the loader. But I'll try with 2.23.1, just
building ...
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Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Florian Klämpfl flor...@freepascal.orgwrote: Am 16.02.2013 20:45, schrieb geneb: On Sat, 16 Feb 2013, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: I tried something like this before and I was suprised at the dearth of Lazarus and FreePascal bloggers. Getting Lazarus and FPC developers, (let alone users) to blog about their experiences is like pulling teeth.I think a law should be passed requiring FPC users to blog about their usage and experiences at least twice a year. Maybe not everyone is so enthousiast about blogs as you ? I agree with Florian; I prefer to work on FPC. While I can certainly understand your point of view, the more people that are talking about FPC and Lazarus, the more people that will become exposed to it. Isn't the svn rss feed not the best opportunity to talk about fpc/lazarus :)? When I hear stuff like sure pascal is cool but lack of good string support, I think that it is more self explanatory then anything. At the local open source community I'm a known evangelist for Object Pascal, and my blog is full of code, text etc, regarding stuff in object pascal. Some of the people over here that actually started using FPC/Lazarus arrived due to my blog posts, so spreading the word is very important imho. Ido ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
Am 17.02.2013 09:55, schrieb ik: On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Florian Klämpfl flor...@freepascal.org mailto:flor...@freepascal.org wrote: Am 16.02.2013 20:45, schrieb geneb: On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 tel:2013, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: I tried something like this before and I was suprised at the dearth of Lazarus and FreePascal bloggers. Getting Lazarus and FPC developers, (let alone users) to blog about their experiences is like pulling teeth.I think a law should be passed requiring FPC users to blog about their usage and experiences at least twice a year. Maybe not everyone is so enthousiast about blogs as you ? I agree with Florian; I prefer to work on FPC. While I can certainly understand your point of view, the more people that are talking about FPC and Lazarus, the more people that will become exposed to it. Isn't the svn rss feed not the best opportunity to talk about fpc/lazarus :)? When I hear stuff like sure pascal is cool but lack of good string support, I think that it is more self explanatory then anything. At the local open source community I'm a known evangelist for Object Pascal, and my blog is full of code, text etc, regarding stuff in object pascal. Some of the people over here that actually started using FPC/Lazarus arrived due to my blog posts, so spreading the word is very important imho. It is. But some might code, others might evangelize. What I wanted to say: those who are interested what happens in FPC in detail might follow also the svn rss feed. There is simply no need for the developers to blog about this. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Florian Klämpfl flor...@freepascal.orgwrote: Am 17.02.2013 09:55, schrieb ik: On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Florian Klämpfl flor...@freepascal.org mailto:flor...@freepascal.org wrote: Am 16.02.2013 20:45, schrieb geneb: On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 tel:2013, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: I tried something like this before and I was suprised at the dearth of Lazarus and FreePascal bloggers. Getting Lazarus and FPC developers, (let alone users) to blog about their experiences is like pulling teeth.I think a law should be passed requiring FPC users to blog about their usage and experiences at least twice a year. Maybe not everyone is so enthousiast about blogs as you ? I agree with Florian; I prefer to work on FPC. While I can certainly understand your point of view, the more people that are talking about FPC and Lazarus, the more people that will become exposed to it. Isn't the svn rss feed not the best opportunity to talk about fpc/lazarus :)? When I hear stuff like sure pascal is cool but lack of good string support, I think that it is more self explanatory then anything. At the local open source community I'm a known evangelist for Object Pascal, and my blog is full of code, text etc, regarding stuff in object pascal. Some of the people over here that actually started using FPC/Lazarus arrived due to my blog posts, so spreading the word is very important imho. It is. But some might code, others might evangelize. What I wanted to say: those who are interested what happens in FPC in detail might follow also the svn rss feed. There is simply no need for the developers to blog about this. I disagree on this, but that's ok ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
Am 17.02.2013 10:40, schrieb ik: When I hear stuff like sure pascal is cool but lack of good string support, I think that it is more self explanatory then anything. At the local open source community I'm a known evangelist for Object Pascal, and my blog is full of code, text etc, regarding stuff in object pascal. Some of the people over here that actually started using FPC/Lazarus arrived due to my blog posts, so spreading the word is very important imho. It is. But some might code, others might evangelize. What I wanted to say: those who are interested what happens in FPC in detail might follow also the svn rss feed. There is simply no need for the developers to blog about this. I disagree on this, but that's ok As soon as you start working seriously on the compiler, I'll start to blog ;) ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
Am 16.02.2013 22:14 schrieb Michael Van Canneyt mich...@freepascal.org: On Sat, 16 Feb 2013, geneb wrote: On Sat, 16 Feb 2013, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: I tried something like this before and I was suprised at the dearth of Lazarus and FreePascal bloggers. Getting Lazarus and FPC developers, (let alone users) to blog about their experiences is like pulling teeth.I think a law should be passed requiring FPC users to blog about their usage and experiences at least twice a year. Maybe not everyone is so enthousiast about blogs as you ? I agree with Florian; I prefer to work on FPC. While I can certainly understand your point of view, the more people that are talking about FPC and Lazarus, the more people that will become exposed to it. True. But I think Florian (or my) time is better spent on actaul coding. Let people that like blogs do the blogging. They're almost certainly going to be better at it. I'm doing feature announcements. That can be nearly considered as blogging :) Regards, Sven ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 11:43 AM, Florian Klämpfl flor...@freepascal.orgwrote: Am 17.02.2013 10:40, schrieb ik: When I hear stuff like sure pascal is cool but lack of good string support, I think that it is more self explanatory then anything. At the local open source community I'm a known evangelist for Object Pascal, and my blog is full of code, text etc, regarding stuff in object pascal. Some of the people over here that actually started using FPC/Lazarus arrived due to my blog posts, so spreading the word is very important imho. It is. But some might code, others might evangelize. What I wanted to say: those who are interested what happens in FPC in detail might follow also the svn rss feed. There is simply no need for the developers to blog about this. I disagree on this, but that's ok As soon as you start working seriously on the compiler, I'll start to blog ;) You mean like the things that I write for a living that actually being used country wide by big companies ? Pascal is only one programming language I use, and only for hobby, not for make a living, and that's partly because of you. You prefer to create new features, but keep it to yourself, and hoping that someone will catch-up. It does not work like this, specially with Pascal. But what do I know, I don't write software ... ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
On 17.02.2013 12:58, Florian Klämpfl wrote: and that's partly because of you. Well and partly you :) I'am pretty sure that some of the developers would blog about their work if somebody pays them for blogging. But you don't do so (obviously I understand this), they have to earn their living by other means. Once I'm done with university and have reimplemented my blog software with silvioprog's brook framework I hope to blog more. :) Regards, Sven ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
Florian Klämpfl wrote: Am 17.02.2013 10:53, schrieb ik: Pascal is only one programming language I use, and only for hobby, not for make a living, The same applies here. and that's partly because of you. Well and partly you :) I'am pretty sure that some of the developers would blog about their work if somebody pays them for blogging. But you don't do so (obviously I understand this), they have to earn their living by other means. And sometimes, having a high-profile blogger pushing one particular product can be counterproductive since he ends up a figure of fun. -- Mark Morgan Lloyd markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk [Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or colleagues] ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
On 17 February 2013 12:48, Mark Morgan Lloyd markmll.fpc-pas...@telemetry.co.uk wrote: Florian Klämpfl wrote: Am 17.02.2013 10:53, schrieb ik: Pascal is only one programming language I use, and only for hobby, not for make a living, The same applies here. and that's partly because of you. Well and partly you :) I'am pretty sure that some of the developers would blog about their work if somebody pays them for blogging. But you don't do so (obviously I understand this), they have to earn their living by other means. And sometimes, having a high-profile blogger pushing one particular product can be counterproductive since he ends up a figure of fun. Would the said high-profile blogger be Zarko of delphi.about.com, who is referenced here - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/11/verity_stob_sons_of_kahn/. Fear not, Zarko has ceased blogging on delphi.about.com since January 13 to work at Embarcadero. Perhaps he could be enticed to blog for Lazarus and FPC -- Mark Morgan Lloyd markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk [Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or colleagues] ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal -- Frank Church === http://devblog.brahmancreations.com ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
On 17 February 2013 09:35, Florian Klämpfl flor...@freepascal.org wrote: Am 17.02.2013 09:55, schrieb ik: On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Florian Klämpfl flor...@freepascal.org mailto:flor...@freepascal.org wrote: Am 16.02.2013 20:45, schrieb geneb: On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 tel:2013, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: I tried something like this before and I was suprised at the dearth of Lazarus and FreePascal bloggers. Getting Lazarus and FPC developers, (let alone users) to blog about their experiences is like pulling teeth.I think a law should be passed requiring FPC users to blog about their usage and experiences at least twice a year. Maybe not everyone is so enthousiast about blogs as you ? I agree with Florian; I prefer to work on FPC. While I can certainly understand your point of view, the more people that are talking about FPC and Lazarus, the more people that will become exposed to it. Isn't the svn rss feed not the best opportunity to talk about fpc/lazarus :)? When I hear stuff like sure pascal is cool but lack of good string support, I think that it is more self explanatory then anything. At the local open source community I'm a known evangelist for Object Pascal, and my blog is full of code, text etc, regarding stuff in object pascal. Some of the people over here that actually started using FPC/Lazarus arrived due to my blog posts, so spreading the word is very important imho. It is. But some might code, others might evangelize. What I wanted to say: those who are interested what happens in FPC in detail might follow also the svn rss feed. There is simply no need for the developers to blog about this. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal To be fair to Michael and Florian, the compiler i.e. FPC is not the same as the IDE Lazarus, which is the hub for most of the activity, so one can understand their outlook, but a bit of info from the leading lights of FPC every now and then would be appreciated :) My beef is mostly with Lazarus developers. They are more at fault here as a lot of the new features which make a good difference to productivity tend go unannounced or unnoticed. -- Frank Church === http://devblog.brahmancreations.com ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
On 17.02.2013 14:40, Frank Church wrote: On 17 February 2013 09:35, Florian Klämpfl flor...@freepascal.org wrote: Am 17.02.2013 09:55, schrieb ik: On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Florian Klämpfl flor...@freepascal.org mailto:flor...@freepascal.org wrote: Am 16.02.2013 20:45, schrieb geneb: On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 tel:2013, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: I tried something like this before and I was suprised at the dearth of Lazarus and FreePascal bloggers. Getting Lazarus and FPC developers, (let alone users) to blog about their experiences is like pulling teeth.I think a law should be passed requiring FPC users to blog about their usage and experiences at least twice a year. Maybe not everyone is so enthousiast about blogs as you ? I agree with Florian; I prefer to work on FPC. While I can certainly understand your point of view, the more people that are talking about FPC and Lazarus, the more people that will become exposed to it. Isn't the svn rss feed not the best opportunity to talk about fpc/lazarus :)? When I hear stuff like sure pascal is cool but lack of good string support, I think that it is more self explanatory then anything. At the local open source community I'm a known evangelist for Object Pascal, and my blog is full of code, text etc, regarding stuff in object pascal. Some of the people over here that actually started using FPC/Lazarus arrived due to my blog posts, so spreading the word is very important imho. It is. But some might code, others might evangelize. What I wanted to say: those who are interested what happens in FPC in detail might follow also the svn rss feed. There is simply no need for the developers to blog about this. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal To be fair to Michael and Florian, the compiler i.e. FPC is not the same as the IDE Lazarus, which is the hub for most of the activity, so one can understand their outlook, but a bit of info from the leading lights of FPC every now and then would be appreciated :) My beef is mostly with Lazarus developers. They are more at fault here as a lot of the new features which make a good difference to productivity tend go unannounced or unnoticed. It might not be related to Lazarus, but because of this I've started to write feature announcements for new and big changes (generic constraints, TThread extension, type helpers) so that users can see what new features were added to the compiler/the class libraries so that they can test them (and hopefully report bugs they find). Also I'm trying to give potential future developments so that they can see in what ways a feature could be improved. Regards, Sven ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
Frank Church wrote: And sometimes, having a high-profile blogger pushing one particular product can be counterproductive since he ends up a figure of fun. Would the said high-profile blogger be Zarko of delphi.about.com, who is referenced here - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/11/verity_stob_sons_of_kahn/. Fear not, Zarko has ceased blogging on delphi.about.com since January 13 to work at Embarcadero. Perhaps he could be enticed to blog for Lazarus and FPC I'm reluctant to mention names, since I don't see why I should nurture the hapless. However I was actually thinking about somebody who's presented a brave and optimistic face on Borland's behalf for several decades, as well as a few others I've known on a private conferencing service representing Borpricocadero, IBM and Sun. -- Mark Morgan Lloyd markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk [Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or colleagues] ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 1:58 PM, Florian Klämpfl flor...@freepascal.orgwrote: Am 17.02.2013 10:53, schrieb ik: Pascal is only one programming language I use, and only for hobby, not for make a living, The same applies here. and that's partly because of you. Well and partly you :) I'am pretty sure that some of the developers would blog about their work if somebody pays them for blogging. But you don't do so (obviously I understand this), they have to earn their living by other means. I'm a freelancer for the past 6 years, so please pay me on all of the amount of time I spent talking, lecturing and evangelist FPC and Lazarus on my own expense. You never see me ask for it, because I do it because I want to see Pascal in the industry. I do it because I have need to see it used, to make programming fun again, or for any other reason. You prefer to create new features, but keep it to yourself, and hoping that someone will catch-up. You miss the point. My time for fpc is limited and fixed. If I write blog entries instead of coding, fpc will evolve slower. If I spent 25% of all of my fpc time on blogging instead of improving fpc, maybe pascal would be dead now because no advanced OSS compiler is available and it would be only my private pet compiler I use to compile my chess programs and the controll software for our model railway. When I know why Florian (and others) started FPC/K, why do they implement feature X, and not feature Y, when I understand the story of the core developers, It's easier to relate to things. I can talk about a feature that you or anyone else added or removed, but I can't bring the whole story of it. Why is it that FPC/K now exists for 20 years as an open source project, and you can't earn money for developing it, while Linus that have an OS that exists for 21 years can ? This type of things are important more then you think. But not only this, take a look at the freepascal.org web site: animated gif (from the 90's), the whole way of thinking there is not designer oriented - It does not invite new people to the project, does not provide a proper place to be etc... It's not easy to find documentation for things, some are at the wiki, some at the /doc-html/ path and many does not exists. So you are working on all this cool features and is the fastest compiler in the world, and you can do everything you wanted with pascal and many things you don't (and it's not a c++ like technology garbage can). But no new blood see it, use it or can be attracted to it, so what's the point ? unless it's pure hobby and all of this does not matter ... It does not work like this, specially with Pascal. How do you know so? Developers quickly realize if a tool is no evolving and all advertisement is only buzz and will quickly use other tools. Developers, doctors, and all the people who have a profession does not choose a tool that they know nothing about, and if they have too much choice, they usually choose the one that everyone(tm) choose, not because it is good for them, but because everyone is using it. It was proven so many times over and over again, you can find on the web people such as Dan Ariely have a lot of talks and books about it, if you have time for such things ... ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
Am 17.02.2013 15:36, schrieb ik: On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 tel:2013 at 1:58 PM, Florian Klämpfl Why is it that FPC/K now exists for 20 years as an open source project, and you can't earn money for developing it, Actually, I'am not interested in earning money with it. while Linus that have an OS that exists for 21 years can ? This type of things are important more then you think. For what? For the fun? FPC is probably by far the most successful non company supported oss compiler so I'am sure I know what is important. But not only this, take a look at the freepascal.org http://freepascal.org web site: animated gif (from the 90's), Ever looked at gcc.gnu.org, kernel.org, llvm.org etc.? the whole way of thinking there is not designer oriented - It does not invite new people to the project, does not provide a proper place to be etc... Why should I care? They might use the tools they like, I use the tools I like. It's not easy to find documentation for things, some are at the wiki, A compiler is not a toy, and I know that serious programmers find the needed docs. some at the /doc-html/ path and many does not exists. So you are working on all this cool features and is the fastest compiler in the world, and you can do everything you wanted with pascal and many things you don't (and it's not a c++ like technology garbage can). But no new blood see it, use it or can be attracted to it, so what's the point ? FPC is still growing so what is your point? ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] Compiling arm-embedded fpc
Am 17.02.2013 09:28, schrieb Florian Klämpfl:
Am 14.02.2013 21:34, schrieb Michael Ring:
I did a grep through the fpc sourcecode and found a reference in
./compiler/systems/t_linux.pas in an arm related ifdef section
add(' .note.gnu.build-id : { *(.note.gnu.build-id) }');
so perhaps this is really missing in arm-embedded target.
This is mainly needed for the loader. But I'll try with 2.23.1, just
building ...
For a newly build mingw cross assembler/linker it is not needed. What
build target does your assembler/linker have (...-ld --version)?
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Compiling arm-embedded fpc
Hi Florian, I am not sure if this was completely clear to you, this
problem only seems to exist on linux, my primary platform is mac, there
this is not necessary, also not on windows.
After Koenraad expirienced this problem on 30.01.2013 I tried on my
Fedora 18 linux system and found the same problem he described (He was
using an opensuse system).
As you are talking about the mingw cross assembler/linker (isn't that
mostly for windows? Might of course be that I am wrong on this one) I am
not quite sure if you tried this on linux.
my build target was arm-none-eabi, using vanilla binutils 2.23.1 from
ftp.gnu.org, built on fedora 18 x86_64
Michael
Am 17.02.13 16:15, schrieb Florian Klämpfl:
Am 17.02.2013 09:28, schrieb Florian Klämpfl:
Am 14.02.2013 21:34, schrieb Michael Ring:
I did a grep through the fpc sourcecode and found a reference in
./compiler/systems/t_linux.pas in an arm related ifdef section
add(' .note.gnu.build-id : { *(.note.gnu.build-id) }');
so perhaps this is really missing in arm-embedded target.
This is mainly needed for the loader. But I'll try with 2.23.1, just
building ...
For a newly build mingw cross assembler/linker it is not needed. What
build target does your assembler/linker have (...-ld --version)?
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Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 5:05 PM, Florian Klämpfl flor...@freepascal.org wrote: Am 17.02.2013 15:36, schrieb ik: On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 tel:2013 at 1:58 PM, Florian Klämpfl Why is it that FPC/K now exists for 20 years as an open source project, and you can't earn money for developing it, Actually, I'am not interested in earning money with it. while Linus that have an OS that exists for 21 years can ? This type of things are important more then you think. For what? For the fun? FPC is probably by far the most successful non company supported oss compiler so I'am sure I know what is important. Yes to solve everything but keep it for yourself :P But not only this, take a look at the freepascal.org http://freepascal.org web site: animated gif (from the 90's), Ever looked at gcc.gnu.org, kernel.org, llvm.org etc.? Nice, Pascal is at the same level of usage and exposure as gcc, Linux kernel and llvm, nothing more to do, 0xPascal maybe, just to show that 201x can have something new ? the whole way of thinking there is not designer oriented - It does not invite new people to the project, does not provide a proper place to be etc... Why should I care? They might use the tools they like, I use the tools I like. It's not easy to find documentation for things, some are at the wiki, A compiler is not a toy, and I know that serious programmers find the needed docs. Sure that compile is a toy, it can't do much, just parse something and move it to be something else :P And documentation should be at one place, including new features, workarounds etc... for old versions. Look at: http://ruby-doc.org/ http://www.python.org/doc/ http://perldoc.perl.org/ http://golang.org/doc/ http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/ http://docs.embarcadero.com/products/rad_studio/ https://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/JavaScript http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ https://developers.google.com/ Should I continue, or do you get my point ? some at the /doc-html/ path and many does not exists. So you are working on all this cool features and is the fastest compiler in the world, and you can do everything you wanted with pascal and many things you don't (and it's not a c++ like technology garbage can). But no new blood see it, use it or can be attracted to it, so what's the point ? FPC is still growing so what is your point? If a tree fall in the forest and no one hear about it, did it made a sound ? My point is that features are good, but when on one knows about it, then what's the point of it all ? ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
On Sun, 17 Feb 2013, ik wrote: FPC is still growing so what is your point? If a tree fall in the forest and no one hear about it, did it made a sound ? My point is that features are good, but when on one knows about it, then what's the point of it all ? I will repeat myself. I have said this on the lists many times: We count on YOU, the users to spread the news. Form a community. Do whatever it takes. We are not the kind of people that are suitable to do this: Personally, I never read blogs. They are a waste of my time; 99% are pure drivel. Everybody has opinions, few actually have something interesting to say. Knowing that I have such attitude, do you think I am suitable to write a blog ? I hope not :-) What I (and Florian) are trying to say is that our limited time is better spent on coding than on spreading the news of FPC. But no-one is stopping you from spreading the news, on the contrary. We'll be glad that you do, because it means you think FPC is worth the effort. Trying to convince us to spread the news, however, is wasted effort. Michael. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
Am 17.02.2013 18:10, schrieb ik: For what? For the fun? FPC is probably by far the most successful non company supported oss compiler so I'am sure I know what is important. Yes to solve everything but keep it for yourself :P Wrong: FPC is OSS so I don't keep it for myself, if people cannot read svn rss feeds or release announcement, well, I cannot help. Nice, Pascal is at the same level of usage and exposure as gcc, Linux kernel and llvm, And you think some fancy webpage filled with java script (which is turned off in my browser) would change this? It's not easy to find documentation for things, some are at the wiki, A compiler is not a toy, and I know that serious programmers find the needed docs. Sure that compile is a toy, it can't do much, just parse something and move it to be something else :P Well, then it's also fine not to waste time with docs. People like to discover new stuff in their toys. And documentation should be at one place, including new features, workarounds etc... for old versions. Possible, and who should do this work? Look at: http://ruby-doc.org/ http://www.python.org/doc/ http://perldoc.perl.org/ http://golang.org/doc/ http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/ http://docs.embarcadero.com/products/rad_studio/ https://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/JavaScript http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ https://developers.google.com/ Should I continue, or do you get my point ? Yes, I got it: you compare fpc docs written by a few people in their spare leisure time with docs written and maintaned mainly by multi billion companies existing for decades. FPC is still growing so what is your point? If a tree fall in the forest and no one hear about it, did it made a sound ? My point is that features are good, but when on one knows about it, then what's the point of it all ? So what do you miss in the 2.6.0 news post? What do you miss in the android news post? ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
On 2/17/2013 04:45, Sven Barth wrote: Am 16.02.2013 22:14 schrieb Michael Van Canneyt mich...@freepascal.org: True. But I think Florian (or my) time is better spent on actaul coding. Let people that like blogs do the blogging. They're almost certainly going to be better at it. I'm doing feature announcements. That can be nearly considered as blogging :) post them in a blog and it /is/ blogging ;) ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
On Sun, February 17, 2013 18:10, ik wrote: . . Yes to solve everything but keep it for yourself :P You (and many others) can use it (and do so as seen from download statistics, bug reports, etc.), right? . . Should I continue, or do you get my point ? . . Better not with this discussion, if you ask me. ;-) I believe that both of you expressed your points and everybody interested had the opportunity to understand both views. Both views are valid and everybody should do what he can do best (and what brings fun to him if he does it as a hobby). FPC is still growing so what is your point? If a tree fall in the forest and no one hear about it, did it made a sound ? My point is that features are good, but when on one knows about it, then what's the point of it all ? If even commercial company like Embarcadero uses FPC for compilation for some targets, doesn't it prove that there are some people knowing about it? Some other proofs mentioned above too. Still, certain PR is indeed useful, feel free to continue providing it. :-) Tomas ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
On 2/17/2013 12:44, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: What I (and Florian) are trying to say is that our limited time is better spent on coding than on spreading the news of FPC. But no-one is stopping you from spreading the news, on the contrary. We'll be glad that you do, because it means you think FPC is worth the effort. Trying to convince us to spread the news, however, is wasted effort. i know exactly this feeling... it is like doing custom programing... i can/will do that and those contracting it will pay me for that development... i won't write it and then try to make money selling it so they can get it for less cost... they can recoup their costs for development by reselling it themselves... pretty much the same... i'm not a marketer or a salesman... i will sell you something i have if you come to me looking for it but i won't cold call you or shove it in your face trying to get you to buy it... ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] Compiling arm-embedded fpc
Am 17.02.2013 17:50, schrieb Michael Ring: Hi Florian, I am not sure if this was completely clear to you, this problem only seems to exist on linux, my primary platform is mac, there this is not necessary, also not on windows. Yes I know. But I wonder why linux would need this. This is not host dependent but should be target dependent. Anyways, I added the needed code in r23626 to write a build-id section. Please tell me if it works. After Koenraad expirienced this problem on 30.01.2013 I tried on my Fedora 18 linux system and found the same problem he described (He was using an opensuse system). As you are talking about the mingw cross assembler/linker (isn't that mostly for windows? Yes. But the target is the same: arm-eabi. Might of course be that I am wrong on this one) I am not quite sure if you tried this on linux. my build target was arm-none-eabi, using vanilla binutils 2.23.1 from ftp.gnu.org, built on fedora 18 x86_64 I used only arm-eabi, this shouldn't matter, indeed. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] Compiling arm-embedded fpc
I did a quick check on Mac Linux, on both platforms compiling loading resulting .elf file into gdb works fine. Thank you very much, Michael Am 17.02.13 19:57, schrieb Florian Klämpfl: Am 17.02.2013 17:50, schrieb Michael Ring: Hi Florian, I am not sure if this was completely clear to you, this problem only seems to exist on linux, my primary platform is mac, there this is not necessary, also not on windows. Yes I know. But I wonder why linux would need this. This is not host dependent but should be target dependent. Anyways, I added the needed code in r23626 to write a build-id section. Please tell me if it works. After Koenraad expirienced this problem on 30.01.2013 I tried on my Fedora 18 linux system and found the same problem he described (He was using an opensuse system). As you are talking about the mingw cross assembler/linker (isn't that mostly for windows? Yes. But the target is the same: arm-eabi. Might of course be that I am wrong on this one) I am not quite sure if you tried this on linux. my build target was arm-none-eabi, using vanilla binutils 2.23.1 from ftp.gnu.org, built on fedora 18 x86_64 I used only arm-eabi, this shouldn't matter, indeed. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
On 17 February 2013 17:10, ik ido...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 5:05 PM, Florian Klämpfl flor...@freepascal.org wrote: Am 17.02.2013 15:36, schrieb ik: On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 tel:2013 at 1:58 PM, Florian Klämpfl Why is it that FPC/K now exists for 20 years as an open source project, and you can't earn money for developing it, Actually, I'am not interested in earning money with it. while Linus that have an OS that exists for 21 years can ? This type of things are important more then you think. For what? For the fun? FPC is probably by far the most successful non company supported oss compiler so I'am sure I know what is important. Yes to solve everything but keep it for yourself :P But not only this, take a look at the freepascal.org http://freepascal.org web site: animated gif (from the 90's), Ever looked at gcc.gnu.org, kernel.org, llvm.org etc.? Nice, Pascal is at the same level of usage and exposure as gcc, Linux kernel and llvm, nothing more to do, 0xPascal maybe, just to show that 201x can have something new ? the whole way of thinking there is not designer oriented - It does not invite new people to the project, does not provide a proper place to be etc... Why should I care? They might use the tools they like, I use the tools I like. It's not easy to find documentation for things, some are at the wiki, A compiler is not a toy, and I know that serious programmers find the needed docs. Sure that compile is a toy, it can't do much, just parse something and move it to be something else :P And documentation should be at one place, including new features, workarounds etc... for old versions. Look at: http://ruby-doc.org/ http://www.python.org/doc/ http://perldoc.perl.org/ http://golang.org/doc/ http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/ http://docs.embarcadero.com/products/rad_studio/ https://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/JavaScript http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ https://developers.google.com/ Should I continue, or do you get my point ? some at the /doc-html/ path and many does not exists. So you are working on all this cool features and is the fastest compiler in the world, and you can do everything you wanted with pascal and many things you don't (and it's not a c++ like technology garbage can). But no new blood see it, use it or can be attracted to it, so what's the point ? FPC is still growing so what is your point? If a tree fall in the forest and no one hear about it, did it made a sound ? My point is that features are good, but when on one knows about it, then what's the point of it all ? ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal To Id in particular and others like minds I think there is something which isn't quite understood here. The compiler and the language ie FPC is quite a separate thing from the development tools and libraries, toolchains and the areas where it is applied. For instance if you read fpc-devel you will see that it is targetted at a wide range of CPUs and embedded devices, and that is not an area where the latest language developments are of much interest. Rightly or wrongly the compiler developers have become the focus where all matters FPC related are centred and this shouldn't be the case. I had my issues with this a long time ago and I even blogged about it - https://devblog.brahmancreations.com/content/observations-on-freepascal-and-lazarus-development, and it also resulted in https://devblog.brahmancreations.com/content/build-scripts-for-installing-freepascal-and-lazarus-from-source (which has resulted in almost 60.000 hits to date, LOL) but I have come to understand why things are the way they are. Some of your comparisons with other language projects are not quite fair. You mentioned Ruby, Python, Java but this comparison is not appropriate. Leaving aside the quality of documentation, something must be noted here. The languages you mentioned are more or less owned by a few individuals/corporations/committees who determine EXACTLY how the language is defined, the primary libraries and how they are implemented. There is only one Matz, one Guido, and one Oracle. FreePascal aims to support and retain compatibility with many different dialects which sprung up over the years and that isn't easy. Graeme's complaints about what he considers an unwarranted desire to maintain compatibility with Delphi are legion, yet (ex) Delphi developers are the ones who can do the most to help FreePascal evolve if they don't buy into promises by Embarcadero to have Delphi working fine and dandy on Linux, which really means the Mac, as there is one too many variants
[fpc-pascal] Modular Qt4Pas
Hi, Simple hello world application created in QT Creator has only basic QT dependencies (libqtgui, libqtcore and libqtwidgets). But Qt4Pas has static linked api for all QT modules, so creating hello world in free pascal need also libqtnetworking, libwebkit (33 MB!) and even libsqlite and more. Are plans for split Qt4Pas to separated modules? Regards ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
Am 17.02.2013 20:31, schrieb Frank Church: One more thing lest I forget. The official FPC documentation is very good, especially for documents created by volunteers and hobbyists. That it is not accompanied by examples c:\fpc\docsdir ex*.pp /s | grep -c ex 668 What do I miss? ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 9:31 PM, Frank Church vfcli...@gmail.com wrote: On 17 February 2013 17:10, ik ido...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 5:05 PM, Florian Klämpfl flor...@freepascal.org wrote: Am 17.02.2013 15:36, schrieb ik: On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 tel:2013 at 1:58 PM, Florian Klämpfl Why is it that FPC/K now exists for 20 years as an open source project, and you can't earn money for developing it, Actually, I'am not interested in earning money with it. while Linus that have an OS that exists for 21 years can ? This type of things are important more then you think. For what? For the fun? FPC is probably by far the most successful non company supported oss compiler so I'am sure I know what is important. Yes to solve everything but keep it for yourself :P But not only this, take a look at the freepascal.org http://freepascal.org web site: animated gif (from the 90's), Ever looked at gcc.gnu.org, kernel.org, llvm.org etc.? Nice, Pascal is at the same level of usage and exposure as gcc, Linux kernel and llvm, nothing more to do, 0xPascal maybe, just to show that 201x can have something new ? the whole way of thinking there is not designer oriented - It does not invite new people to the project, does not provide a proper place to be etc... Why should I care? They might use the tools they like, I use the tools I like. It's not easy to find documentation for things, some are at the wiki, A compiler is not a toy, and I know that serious programmers find the needed docs. Sure that compile is a toy, it can't do much, just parse something and move it to be something else :P And documentation should be at one place, including new features, workarounds etc... for old versions. Look at: http://ruby-doc.org/ http://www.python.org/doc/ http://perldoc.perl.org/ http://golang.org/doc/ http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/ http://docs.embarcadero.com/products/rad_studio/ https://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/JavaScript http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ https://developers.google.com/ Should I continue, or do you get my point ? some at the /doc-html/ path and many does not exists. So you are working on all this cool features and is the fastest compiler in the world, and you can do everything you wanted with pascal and many things you don't (and it's not a c++ like technology garbage can). But no new blood see it, use it or can be attracted to it, so what's the point ? FPC is still growing so what is your point? If a tree fall in the forest and no one hear about it, did it made a sound ? My point is that features are good, but when on one knows about it, then what's the point of it all ? ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal To Id in particular and others like minds I think there is something which isn't quite understood here. The compiler and the language ie FPC is quite a separate thing from the development tools and FPC implement things. It does not implement all of Pascal ISO, and it add a lot of things on it's own libraries, toolchains and the areas where it is applied. For instance if you read fpc-devel you will see that it is targetted at a wide range of CPUs and embedded devices, and that is not an area where the latest language developments are of much interest. Rightly or wrongly the compiler developers have become the focus where all matters FPC related are centred and this shouldn't be the case. I had my issues with this a long time ago and I even blogged about it - https://devblog.brahmancreations.com/content/observations-on-freepascal-and-lazarus-development, and it also resulted in https://devblog.brahmancreations.com/content/build-scripts-for-installing-freepascal-and-lazarus-from-source (which has resulted in almost 60.000 hits to date, LOL) but I have come to understand why things are the way they are. Some of your comparisons with other language projects are not quite fair. You mentioned Ruby, Python, Java but this comparison is not appropriate. Leaving aside the quality of documentation, something must be noted here. The languages you mentioned are more or less owned by a few individuals/corporations/committees who determine EXACTLY how the language is defined, the primary libraries and how they are implemented. There is only one Matz, one Guido, and one Oracle. Yet, Google was able to create Dalvik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalvik_%28software%29) by using Sun/Oracle API, there are numerous implementation of Ruby (http://jruby.org/, http://rubini.us/ for example) and Python (http://www.jython.org/, http://pypy.org/), a lot more people to
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
On 17 February 2013 19:35, Florian Klämpfl flor...@freepascal.org wrote: Am 17.02.2013 20:31, schrieb Frank Church: One more thing lest I forget. The official FPC documentation is very good, especially for documents created by volunteers and hobbyists. That it is not accompanied by examples c:\fpc\docsdir ex*.pp /s | grep -c ex 668 What do I miss? I am referring to the HTML docs at - http://www.freepascal.org/docs.var. it's not the type that users can leave comments and examples in, like PHP for instance. I am not complaining about the official docs, I actually praised them, but users come to Lazarus and FPC with expectations based on what they see in other projects and that is the cause of the complaints. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal -- Frank Church === http://devblog.brahmancreations.com ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
From: ik ido...@gmail.com To: FPC-Pascal users discussions fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 5:30 PM Subject: Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal I don't need an IDE to develop Pascal, unlike Java for example, I can use VIM (and actually sometimes do), to develop. A language that must be with IDE sucks big time. Whaaat? I don't like java, but don't you know you can use javac command line?, and program in any text editor?. Leonardo M. Ramé http://leonardorame.blogspot.com ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 10:57 PM, Frank Church vfcli...@gmail.com wrote: On 17 February 2013 19:35, Florian Klämpfl flor...@freepascal.org wrote: Am 17.02.2013 20:31, schrieb Frank Church: One more thing lest I forget. The official FPC documentation is very good, especially for documents created by volunteers and hobbyists. That it is not accompanied by examples c:\fpc\docsdir ex*.pp /s | grep -c ex 668 What do I miss? I am referring to the HTML docs at - http://www.freepascal.org/docs.var. it's not the type that users can leave comments and examples in, like PHP for instance. I am not complaining about the official docs, I actually praised them, but users come to Lazarus and FPC with expectations based on what they see in other projects and that is the cause of the complaints. and the complains are justified. fpc as a project lack of people to do things. for ruby the Rails project brought a lot of people to develop with the language. at python it was django. what is the project that will make people to try and use pascal ? how can you find new blood to bring to the projects ? how can you make sure that people are interested ? ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal -- Frank Church === http://devblog.brahmancreations.com ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 10:59 PM, Leonardo M. Ramé martinr...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ik ido...@gmail.com To: FPC-Pascal users discussions fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 5:30 PM Subject: Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal I don't need an IDE to develop Pascal, unlike Java for example, I can use VIM (and actually sometimes do), to develop. A language that must be with IDE sucks big time. Whaaat? I don't like java, but don't you know you can use javac command line?, and program in any text editor?. Try to develop an application/library with Java using using an editor such as vim, and you will want to kill yourself. too many files (each class has it's own file), the path where you place the files is part of the namespace. ant is not very simple to use, and if you use tools such as spring in get harder. it's not simple to detect without reading documentation what are the exception that are thrown back, and almost every error with java is an exception. you can't really use java without an ide for normal projects, only for simple ones, and I speak from experience. Leonardo M. Ramé http://leonardorame.blogspot.com ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] dglOpenGL - GL, GLu, GLExt
In our previous episode, Juha Manninen said: There is an OpenGL unit named dglOpenGL, maintained by www.delphigl.com, and used by many projects. I want to use the units provided by FPC instead, namely GL, GLu and GLext. Mostly everything can be found from those units, except for one function: InitOpenGL; It finds OpenGL functions from shared libs and maps them to function pointers. Q: how am I supposed to initialize OpenGL when using units provided by FPC? The unit does it at startup. That has as disadvantage that the filename can't be changed (or at least that first try can't be avoided). After that, you iirc need to do loadsomething with glversion from unit glext to load the extensions for later versions. I only used basic functionality from FPC opengl, (I mostly use dglopengl), but, like dglopengl's readextension, you need to probably call those only after you created an appropriately versioned context. At least for opengl versions =3 I am also using the TOpenGLControl component provided by LCL, for cross-platform OpenGL context. I understand it basically takes care of the drawing window for OpenGL. The OpenGL initialization must be done before that. (?) Importing functions is not opengl initialization. The reason is the dynamic loading of DLLs, which requires extra action. And even when dynamic, any form of initialization can be done in the unit startup code, but it is often hard to parameterize then. (which defeats the purpose of making it dynamic in the first place) In fact the dglOpenGL unit is cross-platform, too, but I would like to use the built-in units as much as possible. Most of my opengl code is Delphi in origin, but based on original demoes from Ales that were afaik ported from FPC to Delphi :_) Now parts work with FPC again (though with dglopengl). ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
On 17 February 2013 20:30, ik ido...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 9:31 PM, Frank Church vfcli...@gmail.com wrote: On 17 February 2013 17:10, ik ido...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 5:05 PM, Florian Klämpfl flor...@freepascal.org wrote: Am 17.02.2013 15:36, schrieb ik: On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 tel:2013 at 1:58 PM, Florian Klämpfl Why is it that FPC/K now exists for 20 years as an open source project, and you can't earn money for developing it, Actually, I'am not interested in earning money with it. while Linus that have an OS that exists for 21 years can ? This type of things are important more then you think. For what? For the fun? FPC is probably by far the most successful non company supported oss compiler so I'am sure I know what is important. Yes to solve everything but keep it for yourself :P But not only this, take a look at the freepascal.org http://freepascal.org web site: animated gif (from the 90's), Ever looked at gcc.gnu.org, kernel.org, llvm.org etc.? Nice, Pascal is at the same level of usage and exposure as gcc, Linux kernel and llvm, nothing more to do, 0xPascal maybe, just to show that 201x can have something new ? the whole way of thinking there is not designer oriented - It does not invite new people to the project, does not provide a proper place to be etc... Why should I care? They might use the tools they like, I use the tools I like. It's not easy to find documentation for things, some are at the wiki, A compiler is not a toy, and I know that serious programmers find the needed docs. Sure that compile is a toy, it can't do much, just parse something and move it to be something else :P And documentation should be at one place, including new features, workarounds etc... for old versions. Look at: http://ruby-doc.org/ http://www.python.org/doc/ http://perldoc.perl.org/ http://golang.org/doc/ http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/ http://docs.embarcadero.com/products/rad_studio/ https://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/JavaScript http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ https://developers.google.com/ Should I continue, or do you get my point ? some at the /doc-html/ path and many does not exists. So you are working on all this cool features and is the fastest compiler in the world, and you can do everything you wanted with pascal and many things you don't (and it's not a c++ like technology garbage can). But no new blood see it, use it or can be attracted to it, so what's the point ? FPC is still growing so what is your point? If a tree fall in the forest and no one hear about it, did it made a sound ? My point is that features are good, but when on one knows about it, then what's the point of it all ? ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal To Id in particular and others like minds I think there is something which isn't quite understood here. The compiler and the language ie FPC is quite a separate thing from the development tools and FPC implement things. It does not implement all of Pascal ISO, and it add a lot of things on it's own libraries, toolchains and the areas where it is applied. For instance if you read fpc-devel you will see that it is targetted at a wide range of CPUs and embedded devices, and that is not an area where the latest language developments are of much interest. Rightly or wrongly the compiler developers have become the focus where all matters FPC related are centred and this shouldn't be the case. I had my issues with this a long time ago and I even blogged about it - https://devblog.brahmancreations.com/content/observations-on-freepascal-and-lazarus-development, and it also resulted in https://devblog.brahmancreations.com/content/build-scripts-for-installing-freepascal-and-lazarus-from-source (which has resulted in almost 60.000 hits to date, LOL) but I have come to understand why things are the way they are. Some of your comparisons with other language projects are not quite fair. You mentioned Ruby, Python, Java but this comparison is not appropriate. Leaving aside the quality of documentation, something must be noted here. The languages you mentioned are more or less owned by a few individuals/corporations/committees who determine EXACTLY how the language is defined, the primary libraries and how they are implemented. There is only one Matz, one Guido, and one Oracle. Yet, Google was able to create Dalvik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalvik_%28software%29) by using Sun/Oracle API, there are numerous implementation of Ruby (http://jruby.org/, http://rubini.us/ for example) and Python
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
On 2/17/2013 14:35, Florian Klämpfl wrote: Am 17.02.2013 20:31, schrieb Frank Church: One more thing lest I forget. The official FPC documentation is very good, especially for documents created by volunteers and hobbyists. That it is not accompanied by examples c:\fpc\docsdir ex*.pp /s | grep -c ex 668 What do I miss? they are not /in/ the documentation to be read with the docs... think about it like a programming book you by at the store... you are reading a chapter about pointers and there's a simple working demo included in the chapter that is expanded on the further you read in the chapter... that the sources for the demos are on the disk is a GoodThingtm because that saves the reader from having to type them in... however, that they are on the disk and not in the documentation also means that the reader cannot look at and contemplate them while reading the (printed) documentation while in the library with their C0FFEE while taking their morning/daily constitutional... or at the breakfast table or on the bus or train or even just while reading in bed... ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
Am Sunday 17 February 2013 18:45:50 schrieb Florian Klämpfl: Am 17.02.2013 18:10, schrieb ik: Nice, Pascal is at the same level of usage and exposure as gcc, Linux kernel and llvm, And you think some fancy webpage filled with java script (which is turned off in my browser) would change this? In my opinion it would be ok to make the webpage a little bit more eyecandy. That can be done also without java script(!) http://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Das_Auge_isst_mit (only in german) Look at: http://ruby-doc.org/ http://www.python.org/doc/ ... Should I continue, or do you get my point ? Yes, I got it: you compare fpc docs written by a few people in their spare leisure time with docs written and maintaned mainly by multi billion companies existing for decades. It would be also ok to have the possibility to donate the fpc project. But some time ago you refused this because you feel too much pressure (responsible) then. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
On 2/17/2013 19:40, Rainer Stratmann wrote: Am Sunday 17 February 2013 18:45:50 schrieb Florian Klämpfl: Am 17.02.2013 18:10, schrieb ik: Nice, Pascal is at the same level of usage and exposure as gcc, Linux kernel and llvm, And you think some fancy webpage filled with java script (which is turned off in my browser) would change this? In my opinion it would be ok to make the webpage a little bit more eyecandy. eyecandy isn't worth any more than regular candy... candy is candy which is only a sweet to attract those who can't/won't stomach the reality of the basics... a spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down... That can be done also without java script(!) agreed... but too many are wrapped up in making candy to suck on rather than a real meal that actually satisfies the hunger... ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] Modular Qt4Pas
On Sunday 17 of February 2013 20:31:32 Krzysztof wrote: Hi, Simple hello world application created in QT Creator has only basic QT dependencies (libqtgui, libqtcore and libqtwidgets). But Qt4Pas has static linked api for all QT modules, so creating hello world in free pascal need also libqtnetworking, libwebkit (33 MB!) and even libsqlite and more. Are plans for split Qt4Pas to separated modules? You should ask Den about it, better ask at q...@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org zeljko ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 11:24 PM, Frank Church vfcli...@gmail.com wrote: On 17 February 2013 20:30, ik ido...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 9:31 PM, Frank Church vfcli...@gmail.com wrote: On 17 February 2013 17:10, ik ido...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 5:05 PM, Florian Klämpfl flor...@freepascal.org wrote: Am 17.02.2013 15:36, schrieb ik: On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 tel:2013 at 1:58 PM, Florian Klämpfl Why is it that FPC/K now exists for 20 years as an open source project, and you can't earn money for developing it, Actually, I'am not interested in earning money with it. while Linus that have an OS that exists for 21 years can ? This type of things are important more then you think. For what? For the fun? FPC is probably by far the most successful non company supported oss compiler so I'am sure I know what is important. Yes to solve everything but keep it for yourself :P But not only this, take a look at the freepascal.org http://freepascal.org web site: animated gif (from the 90's), Ever looked at gcc.gnu.org, kernel.org, llvm.org etc.? Nice, Pascal is at the same level of usage and exposure as gcc, Linux kernel and llvm, nothing more to do, 0xPascal maybe, just to show that 201x can have something new ? the whole way of thinking there is not designer oriented - It does not invite new people to the project, does not provide a proper place to be etc... Why should I care? They might use the tools they like, I use the tools I like. It's not easy to find documentation for things, some are at the wiki, A compiler is not a toy, and I know that serious programmers find the needed docs. Sure that compile is a toy, it can't do much, just parse something and move it to be something else :P And documentation should be at one place, including new features, workarounds etc... for old versions. Look at: http://ruby-doc.org/ http://www.python.org/doc/ http://perldoc.perl.org/ http://golang.org/doc/ http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/ http://docs.embarcadero.com/products/rad_studio/ https://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/JavaScript http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ https://developers.google.com/ Should I continue, or do you get my point ? some at the /doc-html/ path and many does not exists. So you are working on all this cool features and is the fastest compiler in the world, and you can do everything you wanted with pascal and many things you don't (and it's not a c++ like technology garbage can). But no new blood see it, use it or can be attracted to it, so what's the point ? FPC is still growing so what is your point? If a tree fall in the forest and no one hear about it, did it made a sound ? My point is that features are good, but when on one knows about it, then what's the point of it all ? ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal To Id in particular and others like minds I think there is something which isn't quite understood here. The compiler and the language ie FPC is quite a separate thing from the development tools and FPC implement things. It does not implement all of Pascal ISO, and it add a lot of things on it's own libraries, toolchains and the areas where it is applied. For instance if you read fpc-devel you will see that it is targetted at a wide range of CPUs and embedded devices, and that is not an area where the latest language developments are of much interest. Rightly or wrongly the compiler developers have become the focus where all matters FPC related are centred and this shouldn't be the case. I had my issues with this a long time ago and I even blogged about it - https://devblog.brahmancreations.com/content/observations-on-freepascal-and-lazarus-development, and it also resulted in https://devblog.brahmancreations.com/content/build-scripts-for-installing-freepascal-and-lazarus-from-source (which has resulted in almost 60.000 hits to date, LOL) but I have come to understand why things are the way they are. Some of your comparisons with other language projects are not quite fair. You mentioned Ruby, Python, Java but this comparison is not appropriate. Leaving aside the quality of documentation, something must be noted here. The languages you mentioned are more or less owned by a few individuals/corporations/committees who determine EXACTLY how the language is defined, the primary libraries and how they are implemented. There is only one Matz, one Guido, and one Oracle. Yet, Google was able to create Dalvik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalvik_%28software%29) by using Sun/Oracle API, there are numerous implementation of
Re: [fpc-pascal] OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal
waldo kitty wkitt...@windstream.net schrieb: On 2/17/2013 14:35, Florian Klämpfl wrote: Am 17.02.2013 20:31, schrieb Frank Church: One more thing lest I forget. The official FPC documentation is very good, especially for documents created by volunteers and hobbyists. That it is not accompanied by examples c:\fpc\docsdir ex*.pp /s | grep -c ex 668 What do I miss? they are not /in/ the documentation They are... ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
