Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Dennis]

At 12:06 PM 3/14/00 -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:
>Please guys,
>
>Move this intrascendental thread to freebsd-chat !
>
>Zach Brown wrote:
>> 
>> > Another point is that Open Source is virtually synonomous with "Totally
>> > undocumented". The linux community, years into it, are still totally
>> > dependent on Alan Cox to fix drivers properly (mostly because the OS is
>> > completely undocumented and changes are made on a whim regularly). D.
>> 
>> This is, not surprisingly, incorrect.  I'm mildly curious to know how
>> you arrived at this opinion, but only mildly.  I'm sure the list
>> cares even less.
>> 
>> Alan can be seen as a concentrator/reviewer for the 2.2.x line.
>> He actually authors a small percentage of the code that passes through
>> him to Linus.

Most of the DDI (if you bear to call it that) is not documeneted properly
and much of it is in fact wrong. The device driver book was wrong before it
hit the stands. The only way I've been able to get answers is to ask him.
The docs are ok as long as you are building a "to the spec" ethernet
driver, but anything else (all of which use the same interface) its a bit
of a crapshoot.

Call him a "reviewer" if you will. but none of it works unless he conveys
how it needs to be done. Hang out on the lists for awhile...hes the only
one with answers to specific coding questions.

db




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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Lloyd Rennie]

On Tue, 14 Mar 2000, Ian Mondragon wrote:

> please move this thread elsewhere immediately- at this point i really don't 
> care where to.  several people have requested the same thing over the course
> of the past couple days, yet certain people insist that they get *one* more
> comment in on the "topic".  this is a list for serious technical discussion
> of freebsd, not alan cox's exact position in the linux community, or anything
> else.  if you choose to continue a thread in this manner, then perhaps #linux
> or slashdot trolling would be more suited for your inconsiderate behavior.
> i get enough mail in the first place, as i'm sure hundreds of other people on
> this list do.

Seconded.  Our mail server is waving a white flag, so that makes 3.  Not
to mention the people who've allready asked and been ignored...

--
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tel +44 (0) 117 929 1316http://www.vbc.netfax +44 (0) 117 927 2015





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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Ian Mondragon]

please move this thread elsewhere immediately- at this point i really don't 
care where to.  several people have requested the same thing over the course
of the past couple days, yet certain people insist that they get *one* more
comment in on the "topic".  this is a list for serious technical discussion
of freebsd, not alan cox's exact position in the linux community, or anything
else.  if you choose to continue a thread in this manner, then perhaps #linux
or slashdot trolling would be more suited for your inconsiderate behavior.
i get enough mail in the first place, as i'm sure hundreds of other people on
this list do.

-- 
---  Ian (Bachtel) Mondragon  --- 
Assistant  Network  Administrator   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MEAS/ECE, Northwestern University   (847)491-3691


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Zach Brown]

> Another point is that Open Source is virtually synonomous with "Totally
> undocumented". The linux community, years into it, are still totally
> dependent on Alan Cox to fix drivers properly (mostly because the OS is
> completely undocumented and changes are made on a whim regularly). D.

This is, not surprisingly, incorrect.  I'm mildly curious to know how
you arrived at this opinion, but only mildly.  I'm sure the list
cares even less.

Alan can be seen as a concentrator/reviewer for the 2.2.x line.
He actually authors a small percentage of the code that passes through
him to Linus.

fwiw.

> Becker continues to be the only one that can properly fix the ethernet
> drivers because they are such a mess and poorly documented. 

And this is even more amusing, showing that you haven't really been
paying much attention recently :)

-- 
 zach


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Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory... --> please take this threadsomewhere else.

[Kevin Stevens]

I am sorry, but this discussion REALLY belongs elsewhere. Please take it
to -chat or another forum where it belongs. Please?  I was not able to get
my mail all weekend and was inundated with a deluge of mail on this debate.
There is a reason there are multiple lists.
-Kevin Stevens


Kevin Stevens
Student
State University of New York at Albany
box #0926 colonial quad
albany, ny 1
518-442-0378



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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Marco van de Voort]

> > >http://home.wxs.nl/~asmodai/newbus-draft.txt comes to mind.  And when
> > >that is finished the manpages will follow.
> > >
> > >That's also why I am wasting my time slowly documenting the FreeBSD
> > >internals in my spare time.
> > 
> > "slowly" is the key word here. Real products are documented before they are
> > in commercial use. Plus by the time you're done they will be
> > outdated...another common problem.
> > 
> > Why are you arguing this point? Is there anyone that believes that Linux
> > and FreeBSD are well documented? Please. The books are out of date before
> > they hit the stores.
> 
>   This is completly pointless. The user side of the FreeBSD is very
> well documented. The kernel internals has more poor documentation. But if
> someone want or need to contribute kernel side code, he is expected to be
> clueful enough to understand kernel sources _and_ ideolgy. In fact, it is
> doesn't require too much time. When you're jump in to truck, it is not too
> hard to track related source code changes and keep your code synched up.

Sorry, but that is nonsense. It just limits developpers that don't daily work 
on the kernel.

I don't agree. Users might have to patch to get their own systems running, and
moderate docs will help. Specially in find the right source, and eliminating 
possibilities of what to look into.  Also developpers that go outside their normal 
territory, can use the docs.

I managed to patch the linux kernel once without even knowing C, so knowledge
of the kernel internals is not necesssary to make a patch which works. Since
a patch always has to pass through experts hands before being committed, I 
also see no dangers to users working on the kernel, specially not for own use.

(it was trivial though, the order of the ports for the soundblaster mixer is different 
on some clones)



Marco van de Voort ([EMAIL PROTECTED])




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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Giorgos Keramidas]

On Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 03:44:04AM -0500, Dennis wrote:
> 
> "slowly" is the key word here. Real products are documented before
> they are in commercial use.

The fact that they're documented, does not imply that their
documentation is also "good", though.

Oh, and let us not forget that some vendors think their documentation of
the system is not an essential 'part' of the whole thing, but it should
come packaged in a separate bundle, and charged extra.

- Giorgos Keramidas


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Boris Popov]

On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Dennis wrote:

> At 07:32 PM 3/12/00 +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote:
> >
> >Exactly, and it also slightly pisses me off...
> >
> >Then I guess I wrote all the manpages and documents for nothing.
> >
> >elf.5 comes to mind for a very handy resource.
> >
> >http://home.wxs.nl/~asmodai/newbus-draft.txt comes to mind.  And when
> >that is finished the manpages will follow.
> >
> >That's also why I am wasting my time slowly documenting the FreeBSD
> >internals in my spare time.
> 
> "slowly" is the key word here. Real products are documented before they are
> in commercial use. Plus by the time you're done they will be
> outdated...another common problem.
> 
> Why are you arguing this point? Is there anyone that believes that Linux
> and FreeBSD are well documented? Please. The books are out of date before
> they hit the stores.

This is completly pointless. The user side of the FreeBSD is very
well documented. The kernel internals has more poor documentation. But if
someone want or need to contribute kernel side code, he is expected to be
clueful enough to understand kernel sources _and_ ideolgy. In fact, it is
doesn't require too much time. When you're jump in to truck, it is not too
hard to track related source code changes and keep your code synched up.

--
Boris Popov
http://www.butya.kz/~bp/



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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Wes Peters]

Chuck Robey wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 12 Mar 2000, Nate Williams wrote:
> 
> > > >That's also why I am wasting my time slowly documenting the FreeBSD
> > > >internals in my spare time.
> > >
> > > "slowly" is the key word here. Real products are documented before they are
> > > in commercial use.
> >
> > Really?  That's very different from my experience as a commercial
> > software developer.
> >
> > And, it's not the experience I had from using your products as well.
> > Documentation was as sparse as the FreeBSD documentation, but this is
> > typical of most projects, except for government projects which requires
> > truckloads of documentation.
> >
> > That's the main reason that government projects are rarely on time and
> > budget, and never end up with the features that are desired.  They spend
> > all their time documenting, and no time implementing. :)
> 
> You ever see those docs they write?  Generally, it's an odd case of
> nothing actually being better than something.

Hey!  Some of my past work resembles that remark!

> I did once see a company that did the docs first, and then used those docs
> as the design template.  Any changes in the design had to be modified in
> the docs first, and the docs were under a version control system.
> 
> That was the one and only time I ever saw that.  Dennis is living on
> another planet than we do.  And don't call the stuff that comes with
> consumer products docs, because they are usually written by marketing, and
> usually largely a work of fiction.

I actually work for a company that writes both software and hardware
design specs before plunging off into development work.  Of course, the
specs are never updated after the fact, so they're completely worthless
for any follow-on work.  In effect, the C, asm, and VHDL becomes the
as-built documentation, which is quite horrid.

-- 
"Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

Wes Peters Softweyr LLC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://softweyr.com/


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Chuck Robey]

On Sun, 12 Mar 2000, Nate Williams wrote:

> > >That's also why I am wasting my time slowly documenting the FreeBSD
> > >internals in my spare time.
> > 
> > "slowly" is the key word here. Real products are documented before they are
> > in commercial use.
> 
> Really?  That's very different from my experience as a commercial
> software developer.
> 
> And, it's not the experience I had from using your products as well.
> Documentation was as sparse as the FreeBSD documentation, but this is
> typical of most projects, except for government projects which requires
> truckloads of documentation.
> 
> That's the main reason that government projects are rarely on time and
> budget, and never end up with the features that are desired.  They spend
> all their time documenting, and no time implementing. :)

You ever see those docs they write?  Generally, it's an odd case of
nothing actually being better than something.

I did once see a company that did the docs first, and then used those docs
as the design template.  Any changes in the design had to be modified in
the docs first, and the docs were under a version control system.

That was the one and only time I ever saw that.  Dennis is living on
another planet than we do.  And don't call the stuff that comes with
consumer products docs, because they are usually written by marketing, and
usually largely a work of fiction.


Chuck Robey| Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  | electronics, communications, and signal processing.

New Year's Resolution:  I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up
fictitious words in the dictionary.




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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Nate Williams]

> >That's also why I am wasting my time slowly documenting the FreeBSD
> >internals in my spare time.
> 
> "slowly" is the key word here. Real products are documented before they are
> in commercial use.

Really?  That's very different from my experience as a commercial
software developer.

And, it's not the experience I had from using your products as well.
Documentation was as sparse as the FreeBSD documentation, but this is
typical of most projects, except for government projects which requires
truckloads of documentation.

That's the main reason that government projects are rarely on time and
budget, and never end up with the features that are desired.  They spend
all their time documenting, and no time implementing. :)


Nate


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Andrew Reilly]

On Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 04:14:34AM -0500, Dennis wrote:
> At 09:19 AM 3/13/00 +1300, Joe Abley wrote:
> >I have yet to find a "real product" with good documentation.
> 
> I hate when these discussions get so out of context. The original point
> regarded source code, and whether it was useful enough to allow end-users
> to maintain their own systems simply by having it, since many of the
> caveats and "code tricks" are known only to the authors, or because of the
> substantial learning curve of fully understanding a hardware device.

Well, I've been able to get several problems "fixed" as a result
of having the source code.  I might not be able to fix the problem
myself, but I can usually (a) work around it and (b) submit a
detailed-enough PR or message to the author, including a pointer
to the problem piece of code and what I think's wrong with it, that
a fix has been installed in very short order.

How much better would I have fared with Solaris, SCO or NT?

What does it matter if there are users that can't derive even this
level of utility from the source, when there _arent_ any better
alternatives.

Again, your complaint has no positive arguments for ways to
improve the situation, or alternative scenarios that would be
better.  It is just an unhelpful whinge.

-- 
Andrew


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Andrew Reilly]

On Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 01:36:31PM -0500, Dennis wrote:
[open source is irrelevant because none but but the authors can
 really fix things]
[open source _means_ that it's never finished]
[the existing commercial support sucks]

Seems like a pretty pointless and content-free set of remarks to
be making on the mailing lists of a successful open-source project.
Particularly from someone who obviously _does_ use and support open
source projects.

Go on, what's your real point?

-- 
Andrew


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Dennis]

At 09:19 AM 3/13/00 +1300, Joe Abley wrote:
>On Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 03:44:04AM -0500, Dennis wrote:
>> At 07:32 PM 3/12/00 +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote:
>> >That's also why I am wasting my time slowly documenting the FreeBSD
>> >internals in my spare time.
>> 
>> "slowly" is the key word here. Real products are documented before they are
>> in commercial use. Plus by the time you're done they will be
>> outdated...another common problem.
>
>I have yet to find a "real product" with good documentation.

I hate when these discussions get so out of context. The original point
regarded source code, and whether it was useful enough to allow end-users
to maintain their own systems simply by having it, since many of the
caveats and "code tricks" are known only to the authors, or because of the
substantial learning curve of fully understanding a hardware device.

The discussion about general docs for the OS is a completely different matter.

DB


-


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T1/T3 boards for FreeBSD and Linux
Multiport T1/T3 Routers
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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Joe Abley]

On Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 03:44:04AM -0500, Dennis wrote:
> At 07:32 PM 3/12/00 +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote:
> >That's also why I am wasting my time slowly documenting the FreeBSD
> >internals in my spare time.
> 
> "slowly" is the key word here. Real products are documented before they are
> in commercial use. Plus by the time you're done they will be
> outdated...another common problem.

I have yet to find a "real product" with good documentation.

> Why are you arguing this point? Is there anyone that believes that Linux
> and FreeBSD are well documented?

Yes.

> Please. The books are out of date before they hit the stores.

Books?



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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Dennis]

At 07:32 PM 3/12/00 +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote:
>-On [2312 00:00], Joe Abley ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>>On Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 01:36:31PM -0500, Dennis wrote:
>
>>> Another point is that Open Source is virtually synonomous with "Totally
>>> undocumented".
>>
>>This is sillier.
>
>Exactly, and it also slightly pisses me off...
>
>Then I guess I wrote all the manpages and documents for nothing.
>
>elf.5 comes to mind for a very handy resource.
>
>http://home.wxs.nl/~asmodai/newbus-draft.txt comes to mind.  And when
>that is finished the manpages will follow.
>
>That's also why I am wasting my time slowly documenting the FreeBSD
>internals in my spare time.

"slowly" is the key word here. Real products are documented before they are
in commercial use. Plus by the time you're done they will be
outdated...another common problem.

Why are you arguing this point? Is there anyone that believes that Linux
and FreeBSD are well documented? Please. The books are out of date before
they hit the stores.

DB
.



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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai]

-On [2312 00:00], Joe Abley ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>On Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 01:36:31PM -0500, Dennis wrote:

>> Another point is that Open Source is virtually synonomous with "Totally
>> undocumented".
>
>This is sillier.

Exactly, and it also slightly pisses me off...

Then I guess I wrote all the manpages and documents for nothing.

elf.5 comes to mind for a very handy resource.

http://home.wxs.nl/~asmodai/newbus-draft.txt comes to mind.  And when
that is finished the manpages will follow.

That's also why I am wasting my time slowly documenting the FreeBSD
internals in my spare time.

-- 
Jeroen Ruigrok vd Werven/Asmodaiasmodai@[wxs.nl|bart.nl|freebsd.org]
Documentation nutter/C-rated Coder BSD: Technical excellence at its best  
The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project 
You prayed before, who are the prayers for..?


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WRT `Is FreeBSD dead?'

[Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai]

Could we place relocate this topic to -chat or -advocacy, since it
doesn't seem that correct to be discussed on -hackers.

Hackers was meant for quality technical discussion, not discussions
about FUD, stupidity of people whom don't read official messages posted
prior to stating things, spinning off and more of that non-technical
crap.

Thanks,

-- 
Jeroen Ruigrok vd Werven/Asmodaiasmodai@[wxs.nl|bart.nl|freebsd.org]
Documentation nutter/C-rated Coder BSD: Technical excellence at its best  
The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project 
I must be cruel, only to be kind...


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[W Gerald Hicks]

Once again I must ask... What do you know of Open Source?

Aside from your enlightened criticisms I've seen nothing in
the way of any sort of contribution.  No ports maintenance,
no code contribution. Nothing other than pure profiteering
and never returning anything but a kick in the nuts.

Thanks (not)

--

Jerry Hicks
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

From: Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory... 
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:36:31 -0500

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes...
> 
> >The very fact that source is available means that you can pay any scruffy
> >unshaven hacker to fix it for you, instead of suffering at the hands and
> >whims of, say, a FreeBSD "vendor" as you are doing. I would figure that at
> >least you (of all people) realize that someone else can come in and get it
> >done, and that you could optionally pay someone to do this.
> 
> Not realistically. First of all, most "scruffy unshaven hackers" are not
> qualified to...

[rant and shameless self-promotion elided]


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[jack]

On Mar 11 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:

   Michael Bacarella said:
> > Corporations care only for their interests. Their stockholders will be
> > pissed if they act otherwise. Do you really think there's something wrong
> > with people who are scrutinizing this move?
> 
> No, I only feel there's something wrong with those who are both
> scrutinizing it and jumping to a lot of premature conclusions about
> it.  I expect scrutiny.  I don't expect chicken-little running around
> and yelling about the sky falling.

I think what the Prophets of Doom fail to realize is that this is
actually two different mergers involving three separate and
distinct entities, and that Walnut Creek and FreeBSD are not one
in the same.  Yes there is a relationship between the two, one
that has been beneficial to both sides, but neither controlls
the other.

WC pays people to work on FreeBSD, that has never been a secret.  
But it has only been a very very small percentage of the
committers and contributors who make up FreeBSD, certainly not
enough to think that they have controlled the project.  
Countless other companies have also paid people to add features,
drivers, or whatever else they needed to FreeBSD and contributed
the results to the project.  That has not given any of those
companies control over FreeBSD.

What WC has brought to the table has been, primarily, promotion
and distribution.  The corporate merger between WC and BSDi, one
of the two mergers, should increase what's available in those
areas.  Plus, BSDi brings the commercial support that FreeBSD has
lacked and has prevented its use in many corporate environments.
What's the down side to this?

The corporate merger will also bring more full time developers to
FreeBSD, a Good Thing[tm] IMO.  The number of paid developers
will still remain a small percentage of the contributors.  Many
of the people who currently hold the keys to the commit bits are
already on the corporate payroll.  I see no reason to expect a
change in their principles, commitment, or judgment just because
their paychecks may be drawn on a different account.

The second merger is the merging of the source trees.  Control of
the FreeBSD source remains with FreeBSD.  What gets merged into
FreeBSD's tree will be entirely under FreeBSD's control not the
control of any corporation.  Why would anyone expect anything but
the best code from the two trees as the result?

--
Jack O'NeillSystems Administrator / Systems Analyst
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Crystal Wind Communications, Inc.
  Finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for my PGP key.
   PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67   FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD
   enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null
--



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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Kenny Drobnack]

> > >I fail to see how you can read anything bad into this announcement.  If
> > >you're really concerned, you have just as much right to the code as any
> > >one else, feel free to take the 4.0 code base and create your own system.
> > >BSDidier has a nice ring to it.
> > >
> > >Personally, I've been running FreeBSD since 1.0, and I'll be sticking 
> > >with it for quite some time to come.
> > 
> > Ever read Animal Farm? Remember that BSD/OS started out as "cheap with
> > source" and grew into "just another OS company". Good ideas can turn bad
> > very quickly.
> 
> Instead of assuming that they are going to "go wrong", why not give them a
> chance to do it right?  Everything is in place for exactly the right
> things to happen, I couldn't have planned it better myself, but some folks
> aren't happy unless they see conspiracy.
> 
> When you see something wrong, you can speak up, but stop complaining about
> stuff that hasn't even happened yet.  You could generate enough ill
> feelings and bad publicity to *cause yourself* the exact thing you're
> worried about.

What's there to worry about anyway?  If things go good, we have a
better FreeBSD. If things go wrong, just branch off the source!

-
In computer terms, hardware is the stuff you can hit with a baseball bat,
and software is the stuff you can only swear at.
   -from a web page explaining what hardware, software, and firmware are




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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Giorgos Keramidas]

On Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 09:50:02AM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>
> The FreeBSD genie is out of the bottle and has been for over 7 years
> now.  Any attempts to put it back in are doomed to failure and
> everyone at BSDI knows this very well already.  Do you folks honestly
> think I haven't covered this in great detail in our pre-merger
> discussions already?

No, I suppose not.  After all, this is the kind of thinking, among other
things, that gets one into the core, I suppose.

/me who obviously just loves answering rhetorical questions

-- 
Giorgos Keramidas, < keramida @ ceid . upatras . gr >
For my public PGP key: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
PGP fingerprint, phone and address in the headers of this message.


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?(NO)

[Wes Peters]

Paul Richards wrote:
> 
> I'd like to the see the core team being more prominent in promoting
> FreeBSD to other commercial backers, rather than continuing to push WC
> as the home of FreeBSD.

The opportunity has always been there for another company to promote
and profit from FreeBSD.  Not a single one has shown any interested.
Pacific Hi-Tech did for a short time, but then wandered off into
obscurity.  Rich Morin as much as admitted he missed the boat on
FreeBSD and made Bob Bruce's business by doing so at FreeBSD Con
last year.

So, if you know of a disc vendor who wants to get into the FreeBSD
business, tell them to go right ahead.  I'm not holding my breath
waiting for it.

-- 
"Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

Wes Peters Softweyr LLC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://softweyr.com/


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Wes Peters]

John Grimes wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Wes Peters wrote:
> > Didier Derny wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I've just read the announcement of the merge of BSDI and Walnut Creek
> > > CDROM. (March 10 2000).
> > >
> > > I guess it's a sad day for FreeBSD. I can't imagine how a company selling
> > > it's own BSD could at the same time let another BSD free.
> > >
> > > Has the FreeBSD project become the test-bed for BSDI ? or
> > > the single user evaluation of BSDI...
> >
> > Apparently you didn't read all of the press release.  The BSDI technology
> > will be folded into FreeBSD, which will remain free and open.  What this
> > really means is that there will be several more people paid to work on
> > FreeBSD full time, and to bring exciting new technologies to FreeBSD 5.0.
> > There will also be a professional support organization that can offer
> > support contracts for FreeBSD if you wish to purchase one.
> >
> > I fail to see how you can read anything bad into this announcement.
> 
> I don't entirely agree with the statement above.  I would like to mention a
> point to ponder.  In the 13th paragraph of the announcement on the
> FreeBSD.org website, I quote the following, "BSDI will continue to
> distribute packaged versions of FreeBSD"  Is this another way of saying
> that in the future that the distribution of FreeBSD may take on the Sun model
> for their "free" operating system software, which you pay $$$ for the media, and
> it is not freely downloadable from the net nor freely distributable?

No, it means they will continue to sell CD-ROM packages, and perhaps
DVD-ROM packages in the future.  They will also continue to publish
books and manuals, and perhaps even printed man page sets, as demand
warrants.

BSDI cannot prevent people from downloading FreeBSD over the net, they
DON'T OWN FREEBSD!  They will continue to provide FTP and HTTP servers
for the free distribution and maintenance of FreeBSD, and if you really
want to see it continue to succeed you will keep buying CD-ROM sets,
buttons and stickers, and other goods that help promote FreeBSD and
fund its ongoing development.

None of this is changing, so please stop trying to invent a conspiracy
where none exists.

-- 
"Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

Wes Peters Softweyr LLC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://softweyr.com/


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Warner Losh]

: > bsdi is doing everything to slow down the development of freebsd...

Hmmm.  BSDi isn't paying my salary.  Timing Solutions is.  They tell
me to do or not to do development on their nickle.  I commit code I've
completed.  Where does BSDi enter into it at all?  The answer is very
simple: no where.

And if they tried, I know that myself and most other developers would
have a hissy-shit-fit right on the spot and they would lose.

Warner


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Jordan K. Hubbard]

> me..). WC/BSDI could take away the bandwidth. WC/BSDI could take away the
> hosting of servers, there are a ton of people with servers and bandwidth
> that would take over exactly what hub/freefall/bento/etc do right now. The
> USWest machines are living proof of that.
> 
> I'd even venture to say that Jordan (and core) already have contingent plans 
> for such a "disaster". 

We have more than contingency plans - we're seriously investigating
moving everything to a co-location facility at this point purely for
bandwidth reasons.  As much as we've sincerely appreciated its use all
these years, from a connectivity perspective Walnut Creek CDROM's T1
connection simply sucks. :-)

- Jordan


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Mike Smith]

> > All I see here are a lot of fears and unfounded statements about who
> > BSDI are or what they're going to be in a year's time.  If you think
> > you know all the answers to those questions, please introduce me to
> > your fortune teller!  Otherwise, I'd say you're doing a lot more harm
> > than good with this kind of speculation and have to seriously question
> > your motives at this point.
> 
> I'm not a doom-sayer, but try to understand this from our point of view.

Prozac.

-- 
\\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\  Mike Smith
\\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself,  \\  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
\\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\  [EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Jordan K. Hubbard]

> Corporations care only for their interests. Their stockholders will be
> pissed if they act otherwise. Do you really think there's something wrong
> with people who are scrutinizing this move?

No, I only feel there's something wrong with those who are both
scrutinizing it and jumping to a lot of premature conclusions about
it.  I expect scrutiny.  I don't expect chicken-little running around
and yelling about the sky falling.

> Your view of this will obviously be different from ours since you actually
> discussed this merger with BSDI --- Wait, JUST HOW LONG has this been
> going on anyway? You've probably been discussing this for at least more

Since around August of last year, and if you think that it would have
been prudent for me to discuss something as sensitive (to BSDI) as a
potential merger in this mailing list then you're completely off-base.

All through our discussions, BSDI was terrified that word would get
out prematurely, their customers would hear about it, and sales of
BSD/OS would drop to zero as everyone waited to see what the next move
was.  Which could very well have been nothing.  I've been involved in
two merger attempts which collapsed just hours before signing (that
being when the real issues tend to come up) and we honestly weren't
sure there WOULD be a merger until last Friday.  BSDI requested our
discretion on this until it was done-deal and we understood why.

Now that said, we DID have some sensitivity to this taking people by
surprise and that's why the entire core team also met with BSDI upper
management last October and set some of the framework in place.  We
also sent out an announcement to everyone in -committers (the
ostensible developers of FreeBSD), and that's over 150 people, last
year when it looked like this might even be a serious prospect.  Just
getting BSDI to agree to let us do that was like pulling teeth, the
"leak" prospects from over 150 people in-the-know being pretty big.
If you think I could have just blythly discussed this in -hackers
without shooting the whole deal dead in the process (BSDI would have
considered that an irrevokable breach of trust) then there's certainly
someone being stupid in this discussion, but it's not me.

- Jordan


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[David Greenman]

>me..). WC/BSDI could take away the bandwidth. WC/BSDI could take away the
>hosting of servers, there are a ton of people with servers and bandwidth
>that would take over exactly what hub/freefall/bento/etc do right now. The
>USWest machines are living proof of that.
>
>I'd even venture to say that Jordan (and core) already have contingent plans 
>for such a "disaster". 

   Yes, that is why the freebsd.org DNS is controlled by me with the primary
server on my DSL connection here in my home. No matter what happens in
Concord, I can re-target freebsd.org resources to non-WC machines in a matter
of minutes.

-DG

David Greenman
Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org
Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com
Pave the road of life with opportunities.


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead?

[Giorgos Keramidas]

On Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 04:51:01AM -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote:
> * Kevin M Geraci <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [000311 03:54] wrote:
> > Maybe FreeBSD needs to "spin off" like Slackware is doing
> > and let Walnut Creek merge with BSDi with out FreeBSD.
> 
> We'd be better off if people making suggestions like this would
> "spin off".

A great deal better, since all it takes to see what will come from the
merger is a little tiny bit of patience.  Those who impatiently start
suggesting spin offs and other such funny things are definitely not,
uhm, patient enough for me to work with :/

-- 
Giorgos Keramidas, < keramida @ ceid . upatras . gr >
For my public PGP key: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
PGP fingerprint, phone and address in the headers of this message.


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Bill Fumerola]

On Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 09:59:50AM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:

> > I am sure of the FreeBSD Projects intentions but like the previous post
> > things can 'turn ugly fast with the greatest intentions' The fact a
> > for-profit company controlling it's movements is cause for concern.
> 
> How many different ways can we say this?  THE COMPANY DOES NOT CONTROL
> THE FREEBSD PROJECT'S MOVEMENTS.  It can't!

A little perspective for the naysayers:

I do not work for Walnut Creek. I am a FreeBSD committer, I could call
Bob Bruce, Pat Reitz, or BSDI high level people and tell them off and curse
and swear or talk about their mothers.

I would still be a FreeBSD committer. BSDI/WC can't take that away. (I'd
imagine Jordan would be pissed, but I'm trying to prove a point, work with
me..). WC/BSDI could take away the bandwidth. WC/BSDI could take away the
hosting of servers, there are a ton of people with servers and bandwidth
that would take over exactly what hub/freefall/bento/etc do right now. The
USWest machines are living proof of that.

I'd even venture to say that Jordan (and core) already have contingent plans 
for such a "disaster". 

Is it true that FreeBSD has benefited because of Walnut Creek's financial
backing, yes. Is it also true that so many people are involved with FreeBSD
who work for companies MUCH larger then WC that similar arrangements coudld
be made quickly, yes. Is it true that when all 185+ committers and the
thousands of submitters/developers saw that something bad happened that
they would just keep on truckin' with the relocated FreeBSD machines, yes.

FreeBSD is the community, not the physical machines that host it.

-- 
Bill Fumerola - Network Architect
Computer Horizons Corp - CVM
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Office: 800-252-2421 x128 / Cell: 248-761-7272




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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Michael Bacarella]

> > I'm not a doom-sayer, but try to understand this from our point of view.

[..snip..]

> does this clear up the difficulty for you?
> did they need to clear this with you first?

I had no difficulties in the first place. I entirely support this. I was
just speculating as to why people could be upset, and what possible POVs
they might have. Simply dismissing them as mal-intents is the wrong
way to treat their confusion.

-MB




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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Andrzej Bialecki]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:

> your fortune teller!  Otherwise, I'd say you're doing a lot more harm
> than good with this kind of speculation and have to seriously question
> your motives at this point.

(Well, I was going to stay away, but I can stand it no longer...)

Be sure all of you that there are many (majority?) people who regard this
merge as something very promising, giving us fantastic opportunities. If
you hear the voices of doom-sayers here, it's only because many other
people are so content that they just sit on a sofa, purring and thinking
of the possibilities...

Andrzej Bialecki

//  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com)
// ---
// -- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org 
// --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ 




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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Narvi]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Dennis wrote:

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes...
> 
> >The very fact that source is available means that you can pay any scruffy
> >unshaven hacker to fix it for you, instead of suffering at the hands and
> >whims of, say, a FreeBSD "vendor" as you are doing. I would figure that at
> >least you (of all people) realize that someone else can come in and get it
> >done, and that you could optionally pay someone to do this.
> 

[snip - paying a dropout $100/h to fix drivers]

> Another point is that Open Source is virtually synonomous with "Totally
> undocumented". The linux community, years into it, are still totally
> dependent on Alan Cox to fix drivers properly (mostly because the OS is
> completely undocumented and changes are made on a whim regularly). D.
> Becker continues to be the only one that can properly fix the ethernet
> drivers because they are such a mess and poorly documented. 

Why haven't you considered hiring somebody to document the parts you are
intersted in? Would solve at least half the problem...

[snip]

> 
> dennis
> Emerging Technologies, Inc.
> 
> -
> 
> 
> http://www.etinc.com
> ISA and PCI T1/T3/V35/HSSI Cards for FreeBSD and LINUX
> Multiport T1 and HSSI/T3 UNIX-based Routers
> Bandwidth Management Standalone Systems
> Bandwidth Management software for LINUX and FreeBSD
> 



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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Julian Elischer]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Michael Bacarella wrote:

> 
> On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> 
> > > One day we will discover that we can't use FreeBSD as freely and / or
> > > with the same quality.
> 
> > I wish you doom-sayers would actually come up with some conclusive
> > rationale for your fears here.  Nobody has yet to come up with a
> > single reason as to how or why all these disaster scenarios would come
> > to pass and there has been considerable evidence to the contrary
> > already presented here.
>  
> > All I see here are a lot of fears and unfounded statements about who
> > BSDI are or what they're going to be in a year's time.  If you think
> > you know all the answers to those questions, please introduce me to
> > your fortune teller!  Otherwise, I'd say you're doing a lot more harm
> > than good with this kind of speculation and have to seriously question
> > your motives at this point.
> 
> I'm not a doom-sayer, but try to understand this from our point of view.
> 
> Corporations care only for their interests. Their stockholders will be
> pissed if they act otherwise. Do you really think there's something wrong
> with people who are scrutinizing this move? We all love FreeBSD and don't
> want anything bad to happen to it.
> 
> Your view of this will obviously be different from ours since you actually
> discussed this merger with BSDI --- Wait, JUST HOW LONG has this been
> going on anyway? You've probably been discussing this for at least more
> than 24 hours. Did it ever cross your mind to ask WE, the faithful FreeBSD
> users for some input? Were you anticipating this unfound resentment to the
> merger and felt that a better course of action would be to approve the
> move, and just let everyone whine after the fact, as opposed to let
> everyone whine during the fact, and cause more outrage if you went ahead
> and did it despite protest.
I've know about it for about 5 months so it's definitly not 24 hours,
however you are STILL misunderstanding the situation..

nobody is buying or merging with FreeBSD inc.

BSDI is merging with WC.
WC had no control over FreeBSD except to teh a SUBCONTRACTOR to FreeBSD
inc.

In effect this is the situation:
FreeBSD inc hired WC to produce the CDs and in fact it was not even an
exclusive thing. In return WC payed for the costs of doing the
organisation work needed to produce regular releases. BSDI is merging
with the subcontractor. This no more affects FreeBSD than if the local
pizza manufacurer (also crucial to freeBSD) were to be sold.


The biggest difference is:
Because of this change, BSDI personell will be spending time working on
freeBSD. SOME of there staff are already WEEL KNOWN and in HIGHLY REGARDED
in the BSD world due to the fact that they created it. These people will
therefore
be accepted into the BSD world at a rank that one would expect. 
Mike Karels, As a major architect of BSD in general will
be going into core. This would happen should he suddenly switch to using
FreeBSD no matter what the situation (Merger or no merger). Mike WROTE THE
SOCKETS CODE and as such he's already served his time.

Don't confuse the (re)enterance of the old BSD guys (and associated
shake-ups as some responsibilities are re-arranged,) with the merger of
two separate companies, both of which are separate from freebsd inc.
and the core group.

> 
> Perhaps some people are feeling left out, maybe even betrayed. I would
> have a hard time believing that you can't understand that, having dealt
> with the user base for as many years as you have.

You seem to consider that WC was in someway beholden to the FreeBSD 
developers. The organisation you are thinking of is FreeBSD inc.
and THAT is not involved (except  in an indirect manner) in this deal.
WC payed many of the costs of FreeBSD inc. (e.g. supplied office space
and support staff) but is was never in control of freeBSD, nor 
did it ever try to be so, instead, accepting the releases to publish
as we threw them over the wall. AT OUR SCHEDULE (we, the developers).

> 
> The fact that nobody (except maybe your trusted circle of supporters) was
> made aware of this beforehand only adds to our suspicion now, even if your
> actions were totally innocent. In fact, personally I think you're just
> stupid, as opposed to malicious. :)

There has been no change to the status of FreeBSD, other than the influx
of some old developers back into this fold. Our printing subcontractor has
however changed it's name.

does this clear up the difficulty for you?
did they need to clear this with you first?

Julian



> 
> You will have to do a lot to convince the naysayers otherwise, though.
> 
> -MB
> 
> 
> 
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> 



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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Sean Eric Fagan]

In article 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> you write:
>merge + give code to freebsd --> lack of $$ but future investment
>bsdi unhappy to have given code but thinking to the future
>freebsd users happy of the new features

Er, no.

I've known a lot of the BSDi folks since before there was a FreeBSD.  One of
them, who is not with the company any longer, _might_ have felt that way --
but, then, given the popularity of Linux, he quite likely would have changed
his mind.

One engineer at BSDi has told me he's quite happy to be working on free
software again.

I don't deny that I have some trepidation about it, but nobody is entering
into this with any "evil intents."



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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Joe Abley]

On Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 01:36:31PM -0500, Dennis wrote:
> Not realistically. First of all, most "scruffy unshaven hackers" are not
> qualified to make serious changes to important drivers. they might be able
> to find a stray pointer, but not to make structural improvement.

This is just silly.

> Another point is that Open Source is virtually synonomous with "Totally
> undocumented".

This is sillier.

> My point was that because of open source you have an unfinished product
> that  never gets finished.

That's the description of a product that is still alive. A product on
which development stops is a dead product.



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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Narvi]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Marco van de Voort wrote:

> > > Then, what are the benefits for both parties ?
> > > 
> > > For the FreeBSD project :
> > > - many more supported platforms (Sparc, PowerPC, Arm ?)
> 
> Merced? .
>  
> > definately.
> 
> I'm not sure if that is a good thing if it is pursued by the core team,
> at least not for impopular or older targets. 
> 

Which targets would these be? ARM?

Note that for the code - when it is available for integration - needs to
be actually integrated by somebody, not to mention the userland,
maintenance, etc. 

> 
> Marco van de Voort ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> 
> 



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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Michael Bacarella]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:

> > One day we will discover that we can't use FreeBSD as freely and / or
> > with the same quality.

> I wish you doom-sayers would actually come up with some conclusive
> rationale for your fears here.  Nobody has yet to come up with a
> single reason as to how or why all these disaster scenarios would come
> to pass and there has been considerable evidence to the contrary
> already presented here.
 
> All I see here are a lot of fears and unfounded statements about who
> BSDI are or what they're going to be in a year's time.  If you think
> you know all the answers to those questions, please introduce me to
> your fortune teller!  Otherwise, I'd say you're doing a lot more harm
> than good with this kind of speculation and have to seriously question
> your motives at this point.

I'm not a doom-sayer, but try to understand this from our point of view.

Corporations care only for their interests. Their stockholders will be
pissed if they act otherwise. Do you really think there's something wrong
with people who are scrutinizing this move? We all love FreeBSD and don't
want anything bad to happen to it.

Your view of this will obviously be different from ours since you actually
discussed this merger with BSDI --- Wait, JUST HOW LONG has this been
going on anyway? You've probably been discussing this for at least more
than 24 hours. Did it ever cross your mind to ask WE, the faithful FreeBSD
users for some input? Were you anticipating this unfound resentment to the
merger and felt that a better course of action would be to approve the
move, and just let everyone whine after the fact, as opposed to let
everyone whine during the fact, and cause more outrage if you went ahead
and did it despite protests?

Perhaps some people are feeling left out, maybe even betrayed. I would
have a hard time believing that you can't understand that, having dealt
with the user base for as many years as you have.

The fact that nobody (except maybe your trusted circle of supporters) was
made aware of this beforehand only adds to our suspicion now, even if your
actions were totally innocent. In fact, personally I think you're just
stupid, as opposed to malicious. :)

You will have to do a lot to convince the naysayers otherwise, though.

-MB



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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Dennis]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes...

>The very fact that source is available means that you can pay any scruffy
>unshaven hacker to fix it for you, instead of suffering at the hands and
>whims of, say, a FreeBSD "vendor" as you are doing. I would figure that at
>least you (of all people) realize that someone else can come in and get it
>done, and that you could optionally pay someone to do this.

Not realistically. First of all, most "scruffy unshaven hackers" are not
qualified to make serious changes to important drivers. they might be able
to find a stray pointer, but not to make structural improvement. Stray
pointers shouldnt exist in the first place. Plus, you'll want DGs next
version (say in 4.0), and you dont want to pay some college drop out $100.
an hour to hack it every time a new intel chip comes out. Commercial
companies that modify the  mainstream stuff (cobalt networks for example,
stuck on 2.2.12, working on 2.2.14 and 2.2.15+ comes out) are constantly
battling to keep up. You almost HAVE to  use the mainstream code.

Another point is that Open Source is virtually synonomous with "Totally
undocumented". The linux community, years into it, are still totally
dependent on Alan Cox to fix drivers properly (mostly because the OS is
completely undocumented and changes are made on a whim regularly). D.
Becker continues to be the only one that can properly fix the ethernet
drivers because they are such a mess and poorly documented. 

My point was that because of open source you have an unfinished product
that  never gets finished. The "fix it if you want...you have the source"
mentality is not what corporate america wants. they want the opposite. Many
of them won't even use open source products without guaranteed support. You
are a hacker, you are incapable of understanding. You are like a guy who
fixes his own car...but the "world" is the 98% that cant. I dont want a car
with a great warranty. I want a car the doesnt need a warranty. The reason
that the "free" os's are becoming popular is that, for most functions, they
work out of the box with few bugs.

BSDI's existing support sucks by the way...There is zero way they can offer
better support than the existing "informal" structure that exists.

dennis
Emerging Technologies, Inc.

-


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?(NO)

[Chuck Robey]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Paul Richards wrote:

> It's interesting that everyone is jumping up and down worrying about the
> effect that the merger between BSDI and WC will have. As you say, in
> *theory* FreeBSD has nothing to do with WC and is a totally independent
> project.
> 
> In practice however WC has manoeuvered their market position over the
> last few years to be the "FreeBSD company" rather than a seller of
> cdroms. It's worth noting that BSDI isn't merging with WC because they
> need a cdrom division, they're merging with WC because to all intents
> and purposes they own many of the assets of the FreeBSD project. Most of
> the resources of the project are held by WC and a fair number of the key
> developers are on the payroll.

I do hope that BSDI doesn't minimize that part of WC; a lot of WC's other
cdroms are really nice ones.

Anyhow, guys, you're handling this thing with the paranoid crowd all
wrong.  We need to post this notice on Hackers:

NOTICE:

We know who you are!  Anyone making strange, baseless accusations about a
very unlikely BSDI conspiracy, we're going to put you on a List!  A VERY
SECRET list.  We won't tell you who's on the List!  Please post about it
again, so we can get your names!  The CIA will get this List!  The US Post
Office will get this List!


Chuck Robey| Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  | electronics, communications, and signal processing.

New Year's Resolution:  I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up
fictitious words in the dictionary.




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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?(NO)

[Rajappa Iyer]

Paul Richards <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> The devil is in the detail. If the core team is stuffed full of WC and
> BSDI employees, who have a responsibility to their employer as well as
> to the project, then there will clearly be conflicts of interest and an
> undoubted leaning to solutions and methods of management that fit the
> commercial interests of their employer.

The question really boils down to: do we trust the core team members
to look out for the best interests of the community?  Nothing I've
seen or heard so far indicates that there is reason to be concerned
about that, but even if that happy situation does not persist, the
community is larger than the core team.  If, at any time, the
community feels that the core team does not represent its best
interests, I'm sure that appropriate remedies can be applied---from
gentle advocacy to changing the core team members.  If even that
doesn't work, there is always the solution of last resort: forking.

That said, I must repeat: I have seen evidence of nothing but the
highest degree of integrity on part of the core team members and as
such they deserve not just our appreciation, but trust as well.  I see
no reason to be concerned about the demise of FreeBSD as we know and
love it.

Rajappa
-- 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> a.k.a. Rajappa Iyer.New York, New York.
Where would we be without rhetorical questions?


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Marco van de Voort]

> > Then, what are the benefits for both parties ?
> > 
> > For the FreeBSD project :
> > - many more supported platforms (Sparc, PowerPC, Arm ?)

Merced? .
 
> definately.

I'm not sure if that is a good thing if it is pursued by the core team, at least not
for impopular or older targets.
 
> Access to the developer pool ?

Sure, and with that accesss to internal maillists (if they exist), cc's of bugreports
etc. Very important point I think. Generating quality feedback is always a problem, 
and now  the FreeBSD developpers will provide their own quality feedback, AND 
distille the high quality feedback from the large volume of feedback from news and 
email.


Marco van de Voort ([EMAIL PROTECTED])




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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Michael Bacarella]

> >> >What are their alternatives?  Think about how the world is waking up to
> >> >Open Source.  Think about how companies are realizing that a small group
> >> >of paid engineers simply can't keep up with a world-wide organization of
> >> >contributors.  What would you do if you didn't feel you could keep up?

> Open Source is a lot of bunk. People want stuff that works. Linux is
> growing in popularity because since 2.2 came out it actually works well.
> Linux had the marketing in place and they are soaring. We sell 10 to 1
> linux now. I was getting bloodied pushing FreeBSD. Its like selling tax
> custs to poor people. Its bad politics, no matter how right it is.

> the people buying linux servers from VAR research and the like dont care
> about source, they care about functinality. Thats why BSDI doesnt get it.
> its not about the source, its about the price. People perceive that BSD/OS
> and FreeBSD are substantially similar in functionalty, and freebsd is free.
> The source is only important to a tiny, tiny portion of the market. The
> hackers list is not the market...corporate america is the market. 

> We all have source to the eepro driver but if DG doesnt fix it it doesnt
> get fixed. I'll take a driver that works anyday over the option to fix it
> myself. and so will most commercial entities.

The very fact that source is available means that you can pay any scruffy
unshaven hacker to fix it for you, instead of suffering at the hands and
whims of, say, a FreeBSD "vendor" as you are doing. I would figure that at
least you (of all people) realize that someone else can come in and get it
done, and that you could optionally pay someone to do this.

Open source leaves businesses in control, which is something that I've
seen more than 1 PHB consider. There's little I can do if I'm running NT
in that scenario. So, yes, I would definitely buy what works.

-MB



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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Narvi]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:

> > I am sure of the FreeBSD Projects intentions but like the previous post
> > things can 'turn ugly fast with the greatest intentions' The fact a
> > for-profit company controlling it's movements is cause for concern.
> 
> How many different ways can we say this?  THE COMPANY DOES NOT CONTROL
> THE FREEBSD PROJECT'S MOVEMENTS.  It can't!


Heh.

Are you sure arguing with them isn't futile? For some reason, they have
taken upon to bear a banner (and a big one at that) with the lettering
"*WE* will stand up for poor little FreeBSD, if nobody else does". Not
even thinking if FreeBSD needed standing up for, was poor, or for that
matter little.

Think of them as of people who watch "Tom and Jerry" and then start
organising pickets in front of governement buildings bearing banners
"Don't let mice exterminate cats!"

> 
> - Jordan
> 




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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Jordan K. Hubbard]

> I am sure of the FreeBSD Projects intentions but like the previous post
> things can 'turn ugly fast with the greatest intentions' The fact a
> for-profit company controlling it's movements is cause for concern.

How many different ways can we say this?  THE COMPANY DOES NOT CONTROL
THE FREEBSD PROJECT'S MOVEMENTS.  It can't!

- Jordan


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?(NO)

[Jordan K. Hubbard]

> Since WC didn't control any more than the server for the CVS tree, and
> since we all have mirrors of that thanks to cvsup, if they decided to
> make it unfree, then we as the FreeBSD development group would just
> nominate a different central server and life would continue as before, ...
> without them.

Thank you for making this point.  Sometimes I see things like this as
being so obvious that I forget that others may not, in fact, see them
at all.

- Jordan


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Jordan K. Hubbard]

> FreeBSD.org website, I quote the following, "BSDI will continue to 
> distribute packaged versions of FreeBSD"  Is this another way of saying
> that in the future that the distribution of FreeBSD may take on the Sun model
> for their "free" operating system software, which you pay $$$ for the media, 
and
> it is not freely downloadable from the net nor freely distributable?

No, it is not another way of saying that.  In fact, in other press
announcements BSDI has been very clear in saying that it will offer
the SAME degree of support that Walnut Creek CDROM did, and that
includes making it available for download.

Heck, if we stopped doing that I can also tell you exactly what would
happen: Someone else would start making ISO images and putting them up
on the net and CheapBYTES, who already sells CDs very cheaply, would
make even more money.

The FreeBSD genie is out of the bottle and has been for over 7 years
now.  Any attempts to put it back in are doomed to failure and
everyone at BSDI knows this very well already.  Do you folks honestly
think I haven't covered this in great detail in our pre-merger
discussions already?

- Jordan


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead?

[Narvi]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, W Gerald Hicks wrote:

> From: Kevin M Geraci <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Maybe FreeBSD needs to "spin off" like Slackware is
> > doing and let Walnut Creek merge.
> 
> I don't see why that thought even crossed your mind.
> 
> Anyone could "spinoff" FreeBSD anytime they wanted to.
> So far, there has been no compelling reason to do so
> and it's hard to believe a splinter faction would add
> any value over the course that's been laid.
> 

And those harbouriong such thoughts should dig into the archives and find
Terry's mail on "why not TerryBSD".

> --
> Jerry Hicks
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
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> 



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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Jordan K. Hubbard]

> the equations are quite simple

Only if you're taking powerful drugs, perhaps.  There are a number of
things which are hardly "simple" here and let's go over them:

> bsd/os  = $$ for bsdi
> freebsd = lack of bsd/os sold by bsdi --> lack of $$ for bsdi

False.  If BSDI thought there was no money in selling support,
consulting and training services for FreeBSD (none of which involve
"selling bits") then there would have been no reason to merge the
companies.  You're thinking one-dimensionally here at best.

> merge + give code to freebsd --> lack of $$ but future investment
> bsdi unhappy to have given code but thinking to the future
> freebsd users happy of the new features

I don't even understand quite what you're trying to say here, but even
assuming that there are lots of new features we could become
"addicted" to (and that's an awfully strange concept) indicates that
you're not actually that familiar with the BSD/OS code base.  There
are SOME features we may be interested in going forward, but only
some.  It's the cooperative work we can do going forward in FreeBSD
that interests me a lot more than BSD/OS's feature set now.  If you
want to do something more concrete than just spread FUD, however, then
perhaps you can tell ME just what these features we're supposed to get
and become addicted to are.  Be specific!  You've already thrown out
enough vague and unsubstantiated crap to completely lose any
credibility you might have once had here, so perhaps it's time for you
to stop doing that.

> bsdi is doing everything to slow down the development of freebsd...

AHA!  And tell me please just how that's supposed to happen?  Again,
some credible specifics would be a good idea right about now.

> freebsd is late behind bsd/os
> some freebsd users have started to pay for bsd/os [too many drivers /
> features are missing in freebsd and bsd/os is the nearest compatible
> system so it's easyier to move from freebsd to bsd/os rather than to
> linux]

And now I know you're off in the weeds somewhere, looking for a pipe.
The actual reality of the situation is likely to be quite the opposite
given that there are hundreds of FreeBSD developers and, at last
count, somewhere around 10 BSD/OS developers.  Since none of these
hundreds of FreeBSD developers can be prevented from doing their work
(and if you think so, again, be SPECIFIC as to how and why) I can't
see how any of this makes any sense.

In short, Didier, I think it's time for you to end this thread since
you're clearly in the grip of a paranoia so deep that it borders on
the clinical at this point.  I don't see any rationality to your
arguments, just a lot of fear and general hand-waving.  I can
understand the fear since these are new and uncertain times, but the
hand-waving we can really do without.  If you want to go run OpenBSD
or NetBSD now, that's your choice and I daresay that there are now
many here who would be quite happy to see you do so.  This kind of
insubstantial and unsubstantiated FUD we can all really do without.

- Jordan


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?(NO)

[Paul Richards]

Julian Elischer wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, John Grimes wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Wes Peters wrote:
> >
> > I don't entirely agree with the statement above.  I would like to mention a
> > point to ponder.  In the 13th paragraph of the announcement on the
> > FreeBSD.org website, I quote the following, "BSDI will continue to
> > distribute packaged versions of FreeBSD"  Is this another way of saying
> > that in the future that the distribution of FreeBSD may take on the Sun model
> > for their "free" operating system software, which you pay $$$ for the media, and
> > it is not freely downloadable from the net nor freely distributable?
> >
> This shows a lack of knowledg of the present set-up.
> 
> Walnut creek is not presently responsible for FreeBSD, the FreeBSD source
> or FreeBSD development.
> The merger of WC and BSDI can not therefore change any of these
> things. These things have been overseen by teh core-group and FreeBSD inc.

It's interesting that everyone is jumping up and down worrying about the
effect that the merger between BSDI and WC will have. As you say, in
*theory* FreeBSD has nothing to do with WC and is a totally independent
project.

In practice however WC has manoeuvered their market position over the
last few years to be the "FreeBSD company" rather than a seller of
cdroms. It's worth noting that BSDI isn't merging with WC because they
need a cdrom division, they're merging with WC because to all intents
and purposes they own many of the assets of the FreeBSD project. Most of
the resources of the project are held by WC and a fair number of the key
developers are on the payroll.

> 
> In the  new picture this differentiation is even more marked.
> 
> BSDI will rely on FreeBSD being successful, but they will not be
> controlling it.
> this in my mind is a very brave move, and one I wouldn't make lightly.
> 
> The only thing WC is (was) responsible for is the agreement with FreeBSD
> inc, (and the developers) that they are responsible for producing the CD
> image and selling it. The cost of this to them is that they pay  for
> Jordan's time to produce actual snapshots to sell.
> 
> Since WC didn't control any more than the server for the CVS tree, and
> since we all have mirrors of that thanks to cvsup, if they decided to
> make it unfree, then we as the FreeBSD development group would just
> nominate a different central server and life would continue as before, ...
> without them.

I think a wait and see attitude is best for everyone here. Let's give WC
and BSDI the benefit of the doubt and see how things unfold. The press
releases all sound like they are along the right lines, in that a
FreeBSD not for profit organisation will be set up and control of the
project (including the trademark) will be passed over to it. All things
I've been an advocate of for many years.

Will all the core team members become directors in this new company?

The devil is in the detail. If the core team is stuffed full of WC and
BSDI employees, who have a responsibility to their employer as well as
to the project, then there will clearly be conflicts of interest and an
undoubted leaning to solutions and methods of management that fit the
commercial interests of their employer.

This is a fact of life, we all do it to different degrees and I wouldn't
hold it against core members who did to some extent. The only concerns I
have regarding this merger is whether the core team will remain
impartial enough in it's decisions regarding the project and how much
influence the new company will have on its decisions. It's a question of
balance, given the resources that WC/BSDI will be putting behind the
project it's to be expected they will wield some influence over what
happens in the future, and it should be noted that some of these guys
will have very pertinent input to the discussion given who they are. We
should be careful though to make sure that the core team has the best
interests of FreeBSD in mind when they make decisions.

One of the things that they will need to be very careful of is a
tendency to favour their employer when it comes to supporting commercial
ventures. There are other people in the business who make a living out
of FreeBSD and it would be damaging to the project as a whole if the
core team became an advocate of WC/BSDI above all the other commercial
companies who support FreeBSD. I have definate concerns in this area
given that there is undoubtedly a bias to pushing WC FreeBSD products at
the moment.

I'd like to the see the core team being more prominent in promoting
FreeBSD to other commercial backers, rather than continuing to push WC
as the home of FreeBSD.

Paul Richards.
Originative Solutions Ltd


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Jordan K. Hubbard]

> One day we will discover that we can't use FreeBSD as freely and / or
> with the same quality.

I wish you doom-sayers would actually come up with some conclusive
rationale for your fears here.  Nobody has yet to come up with a
single reason as to how or why all these disaster scenarios would come
to pass and there has been considerable evidence to the contrary
already presented here.

All I see here are a lot of fears and unfounded statements about who
BSDI are or what they're going to be in a year's time.  If you think
you know all the answers to those questions, please introduce me to
your fortune teller!  Otherwise, I'd say you're doing a lot more harm
than good with this kind of speculation and have to seriously question
your motives at this point.

- Jordan


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Jordan K. Hubbard]

> I hope I'm totally wrong and that FreeBSD will continue as it was before

And I hope that people will actually wait to SEE if they're wrong
before acting as if they really know how this is all going to turn
out, as it appears you and several other people are already doing in
extremely premature fashion.

- Jordan


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead?

[W Gerald Hicks]

From: Kevin M Geraci <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Maybe FreeBSD needs to "spin off" like Slackware is
> doing and let Walnut Creek merge.

I don't see why that thought even crossed your mind.

Anyone could "spinoff" FreeBSD anytime they wanted to.
So far, there has been no compelling reason to do so
and it's hard to believe a splinter faction would add
any value over the course that's been laid.

--
Jerry Hicks
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Ted Sikora]

David Greenman wrote:
> 
> >>I fail to see how you can read anything bad into this announcement.  If
> >>you're really concerned, you have just as much right to the code as any
> >>one else, feel free to take the 4.0 code base and create your own system.
> >>BSDidier has a nice ring to it.
> >>
> >>Personally, I've been running FreeBSD since 1.0, and I'll be sticking
> >>with it for quite some time to come.
> >
> >Ever read Animal Farm? Remember that BSD/OS started out as "cheap with
> >source" and grew into "just another OS company". Good ideas can turn bad
> >very quickly.
> 
>The is all just FUD. From the FreeBSD side of things, BSDI is going to
> opensource a bunch of their software that we can then integrate into FreeBSD.
> We're still very much in control of the FreeBSD development effort and what
> fundamentally comprises FreeBSD. In fact nothing really changes as far as
> the FreeBSD Project is concerned - it's the same core team, the same
> developers, and the same BSD-license source code. It's just as "free" as ever,
> and nothing is going to change that. BSDI may decide not to make all of their
> BSD/OS open-sourced, but that's their decision and that will in no way
> deminish what we have in FreeBSD today.
>As others have said, this is a win for everyone and will result in FreeBSD
> being a much better open-source OS in the future. I really hope that people
> will go and read the various press releases and look at this in an objective
> and rational frame of mind. If you do, then there is only one conclusion that
> you can get from the facts: This is a great thing for FreeBSD and our future
> couldn't be brighter.

I am sure of the FreeBSD Projects intentions but like the previous post
things can 'turn ugly fast with the greatest intentions' The fact a
for-profit company controlling it's movements is cause for concern.
(mozilla comes to mind) I use BSDI and love their products but what
happens when it continues to stagnate. I see this as a way to boost
their own flagship product only? at FreeBSD's expense. I may be wrong
but already I see my other favorite OS Slackware teetering on the edge
of obscurity. I wish them the best.

Regards,
--
Ted Sikora
Jtl Development Group 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://powerusersbbs.com


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Narvi]

I snipped the following from the cc: 
"Jordan K. Hubbard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, 
Didier Derny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, 

hope they don't mind 8-)

On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Thierry.herbelot wrote:

> "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote:
> > 
> [SNIP]
> > 
> > If you think it's possible to bend the FreeBSD project to anyone's
> > corporate will then you've never even come close to understanding who
> > we are or what we stand for.  That's a shame since one would think 6
> > years to be more than enough time to gain such an understanding.
> > 
> > - Jordan
> 
> Then, what are the benefits for both parties ?
> 
> For the FreeBSD project :
> - many more supported platforms (Sparc, PowerPC, Arm ?)

definately.

> - better Intel SMP ?

Possibly not only intel smp, according to Wes Peters.

> - new developpers ?

I would say yes.

> - increased credibility via the support network of BSDi ?
> 

add marekting, market penetration, additional name recognition, corporate
contacts and a lot of other things.

> For BSD/OS :
> - better exposure thanks to OpenSource ?
> - Yahoo dollars ?
> - access to a greater community of **volunteer** testers ?
> 

Access to the developer pool ?

>   TfH
> 
> (This is absolutely not a flame bait : I'm very happy to imagine I could
> eventually get for-pay support for FreeBSD machines at work)
> 
> > 
> > To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
> 
> -- 
> Thierry Herbelot  /"\   ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN
>   \ /  AGAINST HTML MAIL & NEWS
> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  X PAS DE HTML
> http://perso.cybercable.fr/herbelot   / \DANS LES COURRIELS
> 
> 
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> 



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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?(NO)

[Julian Elischer]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, John Grimes wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Wes Peters wrote:
> 
> I don't entirely agree with the statement above.  I would like to mention a 
> point to ponder.  In the 13th paragraph of the announcement on the 
> FreeBSD.org website, I quote the following, "BSDI will continue to 
> distribute packaged versions of FreeBSD"  Is this another way of saying
> that in the future that the distribution of FreeBSD may take on the Sun model 
> for their "free" operating system software, which you pay $$$ for the media, and
> it is not freely downloadable from the net nor freely distributable?
> 
This shows a lack of knowledg of the present set-up.

Walnut creek is not presently responsible for FreeBSD, the FreeBSD source
or FreeBSD development.
The merger of WC and BSDI can not therefore change any of these
things. These things have been overseen by teh core-group and FreeBSD inc.

In the  new picture this differentiation is even more marked.

BSDI will rely on FreeBSD being successful, but they will not be
controlling it.
this in my mind is a very brave move, and one I wouldn't make lightly.

The only thing WC is (was) responsible for is the agreement with FreeBSD
inc, (and the developers) that they are responsible for producing the CD
image and selling it. The cost of this to them is that they pay  for
Jordan's time to produce actual snapshots to sell.


Since WC didn't control any more than the server for the CVS tree, and
since we all have mirrors of that thanks to cvsup, if they decided to
make it unfree, then we as the FreeBSD development group would just
nominate a different central server and life would continue as before, ...
without them.

julian



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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Julian Elischer]

The big thing that you are missing from this equation is the 
people.

Kirk and Mike, who I know, are more dedicated to seeing
BSD as a whole succeed, than most people, so I think that you
have to factor that in.
I think they see that they are spending too much of their time
trying to play catch-up on the issues of kernel development etc and 
being distracted by what what we as FreeBSD are happy to do for free,
and they would rather spend that effort on pushing BSD forward
in the maketplace.

I am sure that 'conspiracy theorists' are having a field day
but the grassy knoll doesn't come into this one.

Julian

On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Didier Derny wrote:

> it was this announcement, but it's only words, the reallity can be
> very different...
> 
> the equations are quite simple
> 
> step 1
> --
> bsd/os  = $$ for bsdi
> freebsd = lack of bsd/os sold by bsdi --> lack of $$ for bsdi
> 
> step 2
> --
> merge + give code to freebsd --> lack of $$ but future investment
> bsdi unhappy to have given code but thinking to the future
> freebsd users happy of the new features
> 
> ... a few months ... 
> 
> freebsd users 'addicted' by the new features
> 
> ... a few other months ...
> 
> bsdi is doing everything to slow down the development of freebsd...
> 
> ... a few other months ...
> 
> step 3
> --
> freebsd is late behind bsd/os
> some freebsd users have started to pay for bsd/os [too many drivers /
> features are missing in freebsd and bsd/os is the nearest compatible
> system so it's easyier to move from freebsd to bsd/os rather than to
> linux]
> 
> ... 1 .. 2 .. 3 years ...
> 
> step 4
> --
> freebsd is dead
> freebsd users are now running bsd/os (big bucks for BSD/OS)
> finally it was a good operation for BSDI
> 
> I've already seen this mechanism several times in the past
> 
> sorry, that's how I see the things, even if I hope that I'm wrong
> that's also how some of my clients / friends see the things
> 
> --
> Didier Derny
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Sam Leffler wrote:
> 
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Didier Derny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Friday, March 10, 2000 3:02 AM
> > Subject: Is FreeBSD dead ?
> > 
> > 
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I've just read the announcement of the merge of BSDI and Walnut Creek
> > > CDROM. (March 10 2000).
> > >
> > > I guess it's a sad day for FreeBSD. I can't imagine how a company selling
> > > it's own BSD could at the same time let another BSD free.
> > >
> > > Has the FreeBSD project become the test-bed for BSDI ? or
> > > the single user evaluation of BSDI...
> > >
> > 
> > Not sure what announcement you read (no URL provided), but if you look at
> > http://www.bsdi.com/press/2310.mhtml you'll see the following:
> > 
> > "BSDI will continue to develop, enhance and distribute BSD/OS and FreeBSD
> > according to the terms of the business-friendly, unencumbered Berkeley
> > software license, which encourages development for open source software
> > projects, embedded systems, specialized applications, information appliances
> > and other operating system-enabled products.
> > BSDI will expand and accelerate Walnut Creek CDROM's FreeBSD open source
> > initiatives by sharing BSD/OS technical innovations with the FreeBSD Project
> > and by providing this open source project with operational and technical
> > support, marketing and funding. BSDI will continue to distribute packaged
> > versions of FreeBSD and also plans to develop value-added products based on
> > FreeBSD as well as to provide technical support, consulting services,
> > educational services and training for FreeBSD customers. These steps are
> > expected to promote and invigorate the BSD open source computing movement.
> > The FreeBSD Project develops the popular FreeBSD operating system and
> > aggregates and integrates contributed software from more than 5,000
> > developers worldwide."
> > 
> > which clearly states that FreeBSD will benefit greatly from this action.
> > 
> > FWIW I'm the person that was responsible for 4.2BSD (and lots of the code
> > you still find in FreeBSD) and based on my information you've got things
> > very wrong.
> > 
> > Sam
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> 



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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[John Grimes]

On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Wes Peters wrote:
> Didier Derny wrote:
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I've just read the announcement of the merge of BSDI and Walnut Creek
> > CDROM. (March 10 2000).
> > 
> > I guess it's a sad day for FreeBSD. I can't imagine how a company selling
> > it's own BSD could at the same time let another BSD free.
> > 
> > Has the FreeBSD project become the test-bed for BSDI ? or
> > the single user evaluation of BSDI...
> 
> Apparently you didn't read all of the press release.  The BSDI technology
> will be folded into FreeBSD, which will remain free and open.  What this
> really means is that there will be several more people paid to work on
> FreeBSD full time, and to bring exciting new technologies to FreeBSD 5.0.
> There will also be a professional support organization that can offer
> support contracts for FreeBSD if you wish to purchase one.
> 
> I fail to see how you can read anything bad into this announcement.  

I don't entirely agree with the statement above.  I would like to mention a 
point to ponder.  In the 13th paragraph of the announcement on the 
FreeBSD.org website, I quote the following, "BSDI will continue to 
distribute packaged versions of FreeBSD"  Is this another way of saying
that in the future that the distribution of FreeBSD may take on the Sun model 
for their "free" operating system software, which you pay $$$ for the media, and
it is not freely downloadable from the net nor freely distributable?

>If
> you're really concerned, you have just as much right to the code as any
> one else, feel free to take the 4.0 code base and create your own system.
> BSDidier has a nice ring to it.
> 
> Personally, I've been running FreeBSD since 1.0, and I'll be sticking 
> with it for quite some time to come.
> 
> -- 
> "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"
> 
> Wes Peters Softweyr LLC
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://softweyr.com/
> 
> 
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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Andrew Kenneth Milton]

+[ Didier Derny ]-
| it was this announcement, but it's only words, the reallity can be
| very different...
| 
| the equations are quite simple

No they're not. Your equations are naive, and show that you do not realise
what FreeBSD is worth to BSDi other than a saleable product. FreeBSD is 
(worth) more than the sum of its parts.

-- 
Totally Holistic Enterprises Internet|  P:+61 7 3870 0066   | Andrew Milton
The Internet (Aust) Pty Ltd  |  F:+61 7 3870 4477   | 
ACN: 082 081 472 |  M:+61 416 022 411   | Carpe Daemon
PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068|[EMAIL PROTECTED]| 


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Didier Derny]

it was this announcement, but it's only words, the reallity can be
very different...

the equations are quite simple

step 1
--
bsd/os  = $$ for bsdi
freebsd = lack of bsd/os sold by bsdi --> lack of $$ for bsdi

step 2
--
merge + give code to freebsd --> lack of $$ but future investment
bsdi unhappy to have given code but thinking to the future
freebsd users happy of the new features

... a few months ... 

freebsd users 'addicted' by the new features

... a few other months ...

bsdi is doing everything to slow down the development of freebsd...

... a few other months ...

step 3
--
freebsd is late behind bsd/os
some freebsd users have started to pay for bsd/os [too many drivers /
features are missing in freebsd and bsd/os is the nearest compatible
system so it's easyier to move from freebsd to bsd/os rather than to
linux]

... 1 .. 2 .. 3 years ...

step 4
--
freebsd is dead
freebsd users are now running bsd/os (big bucks for BSD/OS)
finally it was a good operation for BSDI

I've already seen this mechanism several times in the past

sorry, that's how I see the things, even if I hope that I'm wrong
that's also how some of my clients / friends see the things

--
Didier Derny
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Sam Leffler wrote:

> - Original Message -
> From: "Didier Derny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2000 3:02 AM
> Subject: Is FreeBSD dead ?
> 
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > I've just read the announcement of the merge of BSDI and Walnut Creek
> > CDROM. (March 10 2000).
> >
> > I guess it's a sad day for FreeBSD. I can't imagine how a company selling
> > it's own BSD could at the same time let another BSD free.
> >
> > Has the FreeBSD project become the test-bed for BSDI ? or
> > the single user evaluation of BSDI...
> >
> 
> Not sure what announcement you read (no URL provided), but if you look at
> http://www.bsdi.com/press/2310.mhtml you'll see the following:
> 
> "BSDI will continue to develop, enhance and distribute BSD/OS and FreeBSD
> according to the terms of the business-friendly, unencumbered Berkeley
> software license, which encourages development for open source software
> projects, embedded systems, specialized applications, information appliances
> and other operating system-enabled products.
> BSDI will expand and accelerate Walnut Creek CDROM's FreeBSD open source
> initiatives by sharing BSD/OS technical innovations with the FreeBSD Project
> and by providing this open source project with operational and technical
> support, marketing and funding. BSDI will continue to distribute packaged
> versions of FreeBSD and also plans to develop value-added products based on
> FreeBSD as well as to provide technical support, consulting services,
> educational services and training for FreeBSD customers. These steps are
> expected to promote and invigorate the BSD open source computing movement.
> The FreeBSD Project develops the popular FreeBSD operating system and
> aggregates and integrates contributed software from more than 5,000
> developers worldwide."
> 
> which clearly states that FreeBSD will benefit greatly from this action.
> 
> FWIW I'm the person that was responsible for 4.2BSD (and lots of the code
> you still find in FreeBSD) and based on my information you've got things
> very wrong.
> 
> Sam
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



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Re: Is FreeBSD dead?

[Alfred Perlstein]

* Kevin M Geraci <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [000311 03:54] wrote:
> Maybe FreeBSD needs to "spin off" like Slackware is doing
> and let Walnut Creek merge with BSDi with out FreeBSD.

We'd be better off if people making suggestions like this would
"spin off".

-- 
-Alfred Perlstein - [[EMAIL PROTECTED]|[EMAIL PROTECTED]]


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Didier Derny]

On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Chuck Robey wrote:
> 
> When you see something wrong, you can speak up, but stop complaining about
> stuff that hasn't even happened yet.  You could generate enough ill
> feelings and bad publicity to *cause yourself* the exact thing you're
> worried about.
> 

One day we will discover that we can't use FreeBSD as freely and / or
with the same quality. That day it will be to late to change from FreeBSD
to something and the only solution will probably be to pay bsdi for their
products. Small ISP are not deciding the day before what they will do the
day after It takes us months.

--
Didier Derny
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Didier Derny]

On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Warner Losh wrote:

> In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Didier Derny writes:
> : I've been using FreeBSD since August 1994 (FreeBSD 1.1.5.1)
> 
> I think you are wrong.  Dead wrong.  This will allow the WC to pump
> more money into the FreeBSD organization to fix some of the glaring
> problems that we have now.
> 
> Warner
> 

I hope I'm totally wrong and that FreeBSD will continue as it was before

but the experience I've had in the past makes me think the worse.

yesterday I've already had a phone call from a client asking me what
I thought about OpenBSD/NetBSD (as replacement for FreeBSD)

some friends called me too with the same concern.

It is clear that I was planning to use FreeBSD 4.0 at home (to replace
FreeBSD 3.x in the future) and that know I'll try NetBSD/OpenBSD/Linux

the worse is that some clients are already reproaching me to use FreeBSD
instead of Linux...

-- 
Didier Derny
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 



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Is FreeBSD dead?

[Kevin M Geraci]

Maybe FreeBSD needs to "spin off" like Slackware is doing
and let Walnut Creek merge with BSDi with out FreeBSD.


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Is FreeBSD dead?

[Kevin M Geraci]

Maybe FreeBSD needs to "spin off" like Slackware is doing and let Walnut Creek
merge.



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Is FreeBSD dead?

[Kevin M Geraci]

Maybe FreeBSD needs to "spin off" like Slackware is.



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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[W Gerald Hicks]

I'm sorry Dennis but I find it a bit difficult to swallow
your assessment of other people's business acumen and
their ability to relate to markets.

The race isn't over yet, hell everybody's just warming up :-)

--
Jerry Hicks
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Harold Gutch]

On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 12:34:58PM -0500, Michael Bacarella wrote:
> A BSDI represenative tried for days to convince me over the phone why I
> should pay for BSD/OS even though FreeBSD was free, or at least a CD
> order away, and FreeBSD even has source code.
> 
> I asked about why we should buy a product that we don't have the source
> code to, and he simply said "because the (cr)hackers don't have our code."

As long as BSDI Inc. sells/sold source licenses to more than just
a _very_ low amount of people, "they" always will have/had the
BSD/OS sources as well.
You might as well argue that "they" don't use any Windows Betas,
as Microsoft doesn't directly hand them out to "them".  Oh, yes,
and of course "they" would never be able to get their hands on
DeCSS-sourcecode, as those are kept in private.
Add whatever product you wish to this list.

bye,
  Harold

-- 
Someone should do a study to find out how many human life spans have
been lost waiting for NT to reboot.
  Ken Deboy on Dec 24 1999 in comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Jordan K. Hubbard]

> Will there be some kind of "business-like" presentation of all the
> goodies which will comme from this merge of codebases ? (BSD-mergemania
> for Dummies (TM) ?)

I really couldn't say at this stage.  Hopefully? :)

- Jordan


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Sergey Babkin]

Dennis wrote:
 
> the people buying linux servers from VAR research and the like dont care
> about source, they care about functinality. Thats why BSDI doesnt get it.
> its not about the source, its about the price. People perceive that BSD/OS
> and FreeBSD are substantially similar in functionalty, and freebsd is free.

I guess one of the throubles stalking them was the name
of the product. First it was BSD/386 which was easily
confused with 386BSD. Then BSD/OS which was not much better
because inevitably caused a question "_which_ BSD OS,
you say? Ah, the BSDI one!"

> The source is only important to a tiny, tiny portion of the market. The
> hackers list is not the market...corporate america is the market.
> 
> We all have source to the eepro driver but if DG doesnt fix it it doesnt
> get fixed. I'll take a driver that works anyday over the option to fix it
> myself. and so will most commercial entities.

I think that's a fundamental mistake. Of course
a driver without sources that works is better than 
the one with sources but not working. But the trouble
is that too often you can't say in advance if some
particular driver will work well. And the one with
sources thus has additional warranty.
 
> The "strategy" is not to sell to existing BSD-heads. Its to create
> incremental business. BSDI doesnt do all that advertsiing just to appeal to
> existing die hards. They are trying to get people to use their product
> instead of NT. Instead of Linux. The existing BSD market is too small. They
> have failed to convince the world that BSD is the answer. Outside of the
> US. linux is totally dominant.

One of the reasons was that Linux was able to run
the Oracle for SCO Unix very early. BSDI did not have
this compatibility for a long time nor their own port 
of Oracle. And not even Informix. So they were immediately
out of competition with any other Unix maker in the
database-oriented market.
 
> Although in the BSD arena you are right. I told the DOM of BSDI at a show
> that their decision to support our competitors card in their OS and shun
> everyone else cost them hundreds of sales a year, because all 

Development of the drivers is expensive, especially
for a small company. For example, SCO is much bigger
than BSDI and still does not develop any network nor
disk drivers except IDE because that's not cost effective, 
it just gets the drivers from the card manufacturers.
So I guess what your company could have done was develop
a driver for BSDI and give it to them.

-SB


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Garance A Drosihn]

At 2:27 PM +0200 3/10/00, Sheldon Hearn wrote:
>On Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:00:20 +0100, Johnathan Meehan wrote:
>
> > That is not fair, Sheldon. Didier has some concerns, and I
> > cannot blame him.
>
>I guess what I wrote makes for a very harsh comment in isolation
>from the grin I had on my face while I was typing. :-)

Also [, Jonathan,] note that there is a big difference between
"having some concerns", and publicly wringing your hands in
despair that "the project is dead, where should I go now?".

> > I'm sure you chaps know what you are doing, but some of us
> > believe that Eris is great friends with Murphy.
>
>I only contribute to FreeBSD because it's an Open Source project
>and because FreeBSD has the most impotus in the BSD family.  If
>FreeBSD stops being free, I'd reconsider my willingness to contribute.
>
>I think BSD Inc. have acknowledged the impotus the FreeBSD Porject has
>and are looking to jump on the bandwagon.  Looks like a really good
>thing for both BSD Inc. and the FreeBSD project. :-)

I can understand how some people might have some concerns about a
few aspects of this.  Even though everything I've read makes this
look like a great deal for all of us, I do understand that there
are possible pitfalls to any major undertaking like this.  So, yes,
people should express their concerns about the details of the deal.

Still...  "dead"?  Heh heh heh.  I'm afraid my gut reaction to
Didier's comments was also one of humor.  BSDI is going to take
some of it's features, port them into FreeBSD, make them available
with the FreeBSD-ish license, and that means FreeBSD is "dead"?
A bunch of developers currently working at BSDI are coming over
to offer help FreeBSD development -- oh woe is us?  Many BSDI
customers are going to become defacto FreeBSD customers -- oh
no, the LAST thing we'd want is MORE PEOPLE USING FREEBSD!  We
will have people working on freebsd for more HW platforms -- let
the wailing and gnashing of teeth begin?  Hello?

I don't mean to make fun of some of the possible pitfalls here,
but from everything I've read I think this is a great win-win
situation for both FreeBSD and BSDI customers.  Well, it's a
win-win situation for both groups of developers, too, so maybe
that makes it a win-win-win-win situation.  I can't fathom how
anyone would read these announcements and conclude that FreeBSD
just died.  I mean, if you do actually READ the announcements,
it is mighty hard to come to that conclusion.

I would like to say "hat's off!" to everyone involved in making
this happen.


---
Garance Alistair Drosehn   =   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Senior Systems Programmer  or  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Wes Peters]

Dennis wrote:
> 
> Open Source is a lot of bunk. People want stuff that works. Linux is
> growing in popularity because since 2.2 came out it actually works well.
> Linux had the marketing in place and they are soaring. We sell 10 to 1
> linux now. I was getting bloodied pushing FreeBSD. Its like selling tax
> custs to poor people. Its bad politics, no matter how right it is.

Linux is growing in popularity because everyone is talking about it.
Most of the people who buy Linux, or any other technology for that 
matter, have NO ability to evaluate functionality and just follow what
they read in their selective set of magazines.  A better advertising
budget will do wonders for FreeBSD; everyone seriously involved with
FreeBSD understands this even if you don't.

> We all have source to the eepro driver but if DG doesnt fix it it doesnt
> get fixed. I'll take a driver that works anyday over the option to fix it
> myself. and so will most commercial entities.

Bzzt!  Dennis, shut up and stop FUDding about.  The eepro driver got
fixed for 3.1 because I fixed it with DG's help.  This is exactly the
same as it has always been in FreeBSD, and in Linux; you can fix it
yourself or you can pay someone else to fix it.  The only thing that
has changed is a more widespread, professional offering of people you
can turn to when you need to get something fixed and have nothing to
offer except money.

-- 
"Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

Wes Peters Softweyr LLC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://softweyr.com/


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re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Olaf Hoyer]

At 14:15 10.03.00 -0600, you wrote:
>
>FreeBSD won't be dead until they pry the source code from our cold dead
>fingers :-)
>
>There are a lot of hardware companies that had invested substantially in
>BSD 4.3 knockoffs and Mach kernel knockoffs.  The natural upgrade path for
>those development efforts is a commercialized version of FreeBSD (imho).
>
>There are a lot of sites that are still using BSD variants that have refused
>to upgrade to the more favored SYSV knockoffs, the natural upgrade path for
>those is a commercialized version of FreeBSD (imho).
>
>There are hardware vendors with very high end multi-processor configurations
>with boo-quoo memory etc.  A natural upgrade path for those vendors (when they
>finally give up on their own "way-behind-the-curve" unix variant) is to move
>towards a commercialized version for FreeBSD (imho).  They may try Linux, but
>is Linux "high-end-performance-ready"?
Hi!

Well,  there is Turbolinux, which claims to do that. Also there are some
projects in clustering. SuSe is selling some clusters already (got to see a
small version of that at Cebit)

Also, those very big installations use some kind of  special Unix spinoff,
something like IRIX, sold for specialized hardware, and paying big $$ for.

Yes, it is a big chance to get rid of the reputation as being without
support, which is very important to the industry.
Well, when you can do things yourself, then its ok (Meaning that they have
qualified personnel already). But when you can't, and especially smaller
businesses cannot, then you have to pay somebody else to do that. ANd thats
the point, then they ask what is when some problem occurs. A company like
M$ or Sun can be sued at least, at least you can point in one direction and
say: Hey, I paid money for that, and you have to fix those bugs and help me
install the OS, if somethings goes wrong.

Thats the things FreeBSD lacked a bit in the past. And if they see only
some small companies offering support on their own as consultants, they
decide otherwise.

There is a saying: Nobody ever gets blamed for choosing IBM.

Thus meaning: If you do what everybody else does, its alright. If you buy
Windows, you know about the problems with it, but as everybody uses it, its
common practice.

But if you stray from mainstream, you get hit very quick if something
hickups or even seems as it might like to hickup in the next few hours...

Regards
Olaf Hoyer

P.S:lets take this to -chat
 


Olaf Hoyer   www.nightfire.demailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
FreeBSD- Turning PC's into workstations   ICQ:22838075

Liebe und Hass sind nicht blind, aber geblendet vom Feuer,
dass sie selber mit sich tragen. (Nietzsche)


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Pat Lynch]

On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Didier Derny wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I've just read the announcement of the merge of BSDI and Walnut Creek 
> CDROM. (March 10 2000).
> 
> I guess it's a sad day for FreeBSD. I can't imagine how a company selling
> it's own BSD could at the same time let another BSD free.
>

the strategy as far as this was concerned was outlined...I suggest
you read the interview with Bob and Jordan
 
> Has the FreeBSD project become the test-bed for BSDI ? or 
> the single user evaluation of BSDI...
> 
> Il FreeBSD dedicated to become the 'RedHat' of BSD (when you know the
> junk sold by redhat.

actually I think generally that this will improve the quality of some
stuff like SMP support, etc. We can hope. The verdict isn;t out yet,
however, I'm cautiously optimistic.

> 
> I think it is time to think to something else NetBSD ? OpenBSD ? Linux
> (which one?)
> 
> I've been using FreeBSD since August 1994 (FreeBSD 1.1.5.1)
> 

I've been using FreeBSD since 2.1.5, and I've met and talked to jkh enough
times to know that he cares what happens to the project. He also would not
be talking about this in such a positive light if it were not good. If
theres anyone I trust as far as this is concerned, its Jordan.

And this should even bring some of the people who were jkh's biggest
critics to some kind of happy medium, we've got some corporate backing
besides Walnut Creek and finally making news. This is a good thing in
itself. 

Like I said, lets be cautiously optimistic about this. lets see what
happens.

remember if it gets really bad you *know* there will be a spinoff.

-Pat


__

Pat Lynch   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Systems Administrator   Rush Networking





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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Thierry.herbelot]

"Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote:
> 
> > For the FreeBSD project :
> > - many more supported platforms (Sparc, PowerPC, Arm ?)
> > - better Intel SMP ?
> > - new developpers ?
> > - increased credibility via the support network of BSDi ?
> 
> Hopefully all of those things, though just days after the merger is no
> time to be making promises either.  All I can say is that each and
> every one of the things you mention have been discussed in positive
> terms.

Will there be some kind of "business-like" presentation of all the
goodies which will comme from this merge of codebases ? (BSD-mergemania
for Dummies (TM) ?)

TfH
> 
[SNIP]
> 
> - Jordan

-- 
Thierry Herbelot  /"\   ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN
  \ /  AGAINST HTML MAIL & NEWS
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  X PAS DE HTML
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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Jordan K. Hubbard]

> For the FreeBSD project :
> - many more supported platforms (Sparc, PowerPC, Arm ?)
> - better Intel SMP ?
> - new developpers ?
> - increased credibility via the support network of BSDi ?

Hopefully all of those things, though just days after the merger is no
time to be making promises either.  All I can say is that each and
every one of the things you mention have been discussed in positive
terms.

> For BSD/OS :
> - better exposure thanks to OpenSource ?
> - Yahoo dollars ?
> - access to a greater community of **volunteer** testers ?

All these things and:

- the ability to provide support, training and consulting services
  to a much larger market

- More direct sharing of open source technologies and being able
  to leverage some of the rapid pace of innovation there; it's not
  just our testers which are valuable. :-)

- Jordan


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Thierry.herbelot]

"Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote:
> 
[SNIP]
> 
> If you think it's possible to bend the FreeBSD project to anyone's
> corporate will then you've never even come close to understanding who
> we are or what we stand for.  That's a shame since one would think 6
> years to be more than enough time to gain such an understanding.
> 
> - Jordan

Then, what are the benefits for both parties ?

For the FreeBSD project :
- many more supported platforms (Sparc, PowerPC, Arm ?)
- better Intel SMP ?
- new developpers ?
- increased credibility via the support network of BSDi ?

For BSD/OS :
- better exposure thanks to OpenSource ?
- Yahoo dollars ?
- access to a greater community of **volunteer** testers ?

TfH

(This is absolutely not a flame bait : I'm very happy to imagine I could
eventually get for-pay support for FreeBSD machines at work)

> 
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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Jordan K. Hubbard]

> I guess it's a sad day for FreeBSD. I can't imagine how a company selling
> it's own BSD could at the same time let another BSD free.

And I can't imagine how *anyone* could take this perspective given
any of the stuff they've read so far.

FreeBSD will remain, as I have gone to great pains to state in every
interview I've granted, COMPLETELY UNCHANGED as far as being free and
open is concerned.  How could BSDI *not* let FreeBSD be free, perhaps
I should ask you that?  You know of some special way of herding cats
that's been hitherto undiscovered, perhaps?

> I've been using FreeBSD since August 1994 (FreeBSD 1.1.5.1)

If you think it's possible to bend the FreeBSD project to anyone's
corporate will then you've never even come close to understanding who
we are or what we stand for.  That's a shame since one would think 6
years to be more than enough time to gain such an understanding.

- Jordan


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re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Mark Hittinger]

FreeBSD won't be dead until they pry the source code from our cold dead
fingers :-)

Seriously, as one of the people who saw the potential for FreeBSD in the
commercial world back in '94 just prior to the release of 2.0-BETA I
do have to say that this is "the next level" that FreeBSD must go to.

Regardless of how you feel about the BSD deal, you do at least recognize
what the commercialization of Linux under various stock symbols means in
the long run to us?

Obviously newbieSD is heading in that direction - to IPO and gain funds.  This
is the next level and we will all judge the results based on what they do
with the funds, any commercial partnership agreements etc.  

If its just a money grab, shame on them.  If we don't go to the next level,
shame on us.

There are a lot of hardware companies that had invested substantially in
BSD 4.3 knockoffs and Mach kernel knockoffs.  The natural upgrade path for
those development efforts is a commercialized version of FreeBSD (imho).

There are a lot of sites that are still using BSD variants that have refused
to upgrade to the more favored SYSV knockoffs, the natural upgrade path for
those is a commercialized version of FreeBSD (imho).

There are hardware vendors with very high end multi-processor configurations
with boo-quoo memory etc.  A natural upgrade path for those vendors (when they
finally give up on their own "way-behind-the-curve" unix variant) is to move
towards a commercialized version for FreeBSD (imho).  They may try Linux, but
is Linux "high-end-performance-ready"?

As is most things, this is good news only if the management and vision of the
newBSD strikes the right balance of fun, risky kernel schemes, stability,
and PR spin.

If they botch it we've still got our CD's from days gone by.  The jinnee
cannot be put back in the bottle.   One has to say Hurrah! for that.

I'm quite interested in this new direction and will be watching what they
do - looking for that great idea that I overlooked.  I very much hope that
this is not a money grab dressed in the illusion of going to the next level.

If they start rocking how many of us wouldn't want to be on board?

Later

Mark Hittinger
Earthlink!Mindspring!Netcom!Dallas
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Warner Losh]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Didier Derny writes:
: I've been using FreeBSD since August 1994 (FreeBSD 1.1.5.1)

I think you are wrong.  Dead wrong.  This will allow the WC to pump
more money into the FreeBSD organization to fix some of the glaring
problems that we have now.

Warner


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[David Greenman]

>Could somebody clear this up for me? If FreeBSD is still going to go along
>doing what it does, then what happens if I write a device driver for
>WhizzoNewProduct(TM), that the commercial side is developing as an "added
>value feature"? Say, for example, I beat them to the punch. As pointed to

   Simple answer: BSD, Inc. loses. What BSD, Inc. tries to do in the value-add
arena is entirely their problem and if FreeBSD developers develop something
that conflicts with BSD, Inc.'s value-add, then tough - BSD, Inc. will have
to go and find another value-add.

-DG

David Greenman
Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org
Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com
Pave the road of life with opportunities.


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[David Greenman]

>instead of NT. Instead of Linux. The existing BSD market is too small. They
>have failed to convince the world that BSD is the answer. Outside of the
>US. linux is totally dominant. 

   I'm not sure where you get your market demographics, but at least in Japan,
FreeBSD is on par with Linux in popularity. If we had even half of the success
in the US that we've enjoyed in Japan, then we'd be a lot further along in
mindshare. But all of this speaks to the past and doesn't consider what may
be ahead. It's true that BSD in general has sucked at marketing. One of the
primary goals with the new company is to change that. In time we'll know if
this was just wishful thinking.

-DG

David Greenman
Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org
Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com
Pave the road of life with opportunities.


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Johnathan Meehan]

Hi y'all,

> "People perceive that BSD/OS
> and FreeBSD are substantially similar in functionalty, and freebsd is
free.
> The source is only important to a tiny, tiny portion of the market. The
> hackers list is not the market...corporate america is the market."
(Dennis)

Some of us live outside America, Dennis - you may have noticed that great
hulking mass on the other side of the planet. We like to call it "Europe".
;-) *runs for cover* There's a good market here too, you know.

Interest in *BSD over here is actually quite strong. The reason that Linux
is so popular (especially in Germany) is actually because of SUSE, and not
RedHat. Sorry, but I wanted to make the point because, basically, RedHat
suck. Further, most of the market is actually domestic (Quake, although it
runs better under Windoze), although I accept the intonation toward
business.

> Ever read Animal Farm? Remember that BSD/OS started out as "cheap with
> source" and grew into "just another OS company". Good ideas can turn bad
> very quickly. (Dennis)

Yeah. As I wrote earlier, I will wait until I get my grubby mitts on some
more information before I decide where exactly I stand, but I am still
struggling to see how BSD, Inc. are going to benefit from all of this. You
see, earlier, Sheldon said:

"However, if BSD Inc. were to use FreeBSD as the base platform and sell
extra toys and service along with it, they'd benefit directly from the
volunteer energy of the project."

OK, fair enough. Service - fine. Still two products sharing a common source
tree, but if you pay money you get service. Cool. That actually sounds
rather good to me, and removes one of the main barriers for many corporate
suits steering away from FreeBSD. The best of both worlds, as it were. But
it is the toys thing that is confusing me. Before you tell me to go off and
read things, I've read lots of things. "They" aren't really saying that
much, to be honest. Which is a surprise, because normally "they" never shut
up.

Could somebody clear this up for me? If FreeBSD is still going to go along
doing what it does, then what happens if I write a device driver for
WhizzoNewProduct(TM), that the commercial side is developing as an "added
value feature"? Say, for example, I beat them to the punch. As pointed to
earlier, it seems to be felt that BSD, Inc are coming along for the ride,
because they cannot keep up with worldwide development. So, how has that
suddenly changed? Can we conclude that it is just a marketing gimmick?

I am concerned about a more cancerous turn of events. As I said earlier, I
think we have to see what happens in RL before we berate people in the
theoretical ring. The simple fact of the matter, boys, is that those of you
quick to jump to the defence of events have no idea what is really going to
happen. If you do, then could you tell who is going to win the 5:30 at
Kempston tomorrow?

Thanks,

Johnathan Meehan



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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[David Greenman]

>>I fail to see how you can read anything bad into this announcement.  If
>>you're really concerned, you have just as much right to the code as any
>>one else, feel free to take the 4.0 code base and create your own system.
>>BSDidier has a nice ring to it.
>>
>>Personally, I've been running FreeBSD since 1.0, and I'll be sticking 
>>with it for quite some time to come.
>
>Ever read Animal Farm? Remember that BSD/OS started out as "cheap with
>source" and grew into "just another OS company". Good ideas can turn bad
>very quickly.

   The is all just FUD. From the FreeBSD side of things, BSDI is going to
opensource a bunch of their software that we can then integrate into FreeBSD.
We're still very much in control of the FreeBSD development effort and what
fundamentally comprises FreeBSD. In fact nothing really changes as far as
the FreeBSD Project is concerned - it's the same core team, the same
developers, and the same BSD-license source code. It's just as "free" as ever,
and nothing is going to change that. BSDI may decide not to make all of their
BSD/OS open-sourced, but that's their decision and that will in no way
deminish what we have in FreeBSD today.
   As others have said, this is a win for everyone and will result in FreeBSD
being a much better open-source OS in the future. I really hope that people
will go and read the various press releases and look at this in an objective
and rational frame of mind. If you do, then there is only one conclusion that
you can get from the facts: This is a great thing for FreeBSD and our future
couldn't be brighter.

-DG

David Greenman
Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org
Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com
Pave the road of life with opportunities.


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Chuck Robey]

On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Dennis wrote:

> 
> >I fail to see how you can read anything bad into this announcement.  If
> >you're really concerned, you have just as much right to the code as any
> >one else, feel free to take the 4.0 code base and create your own system.
> >BSDidier has a nice ring to it.
> >
> >Personally, I've been running FreeBSD since 1.0, and I'll be sticking 
> >with it for quite some time to come.
> 
> Ever read Animal Farm? Remember that BSD/OS started out as "cheap with
> source" and grew into "just another OS company". Good ideas can turn bad
> very quickly.

Instead of assuming that they are going to "go wrong", why not give them a
chance to do it right?  Everything is in place for exactly the right
things to happen, I couldn't have planned it better myself, but some folks
aren't happy unless they see conspiracy.

When you see something wrong, you can speak up, but stop complaining about
stuff that hasn't even happened yet.  You could generate enough ill
feelings and bad publicity to *cause yourself* the exact thing you're
worried about.



Chuck Robey| Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  | electronics, communications, and signal processing.

New Year's Resolution:  I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up
fictitious words in the dictionary.




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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Dennis]

>I fail to see how you can read anything bad into this announcement.  If
>you're really concerned, you have just as much right to the code as any
>one else, feel free to take the 4.0 code base and create your own system.
>BSDidier has a nice ring to it.
>
>Personally, I've been running FreeBSD since 1.0, and I'll be sticking 
>with it for quite some time to come.

Ever read Animal Farm? Remember that BSD/OS started out as "cheap with
source" and grew into "just another OS company". Good ideas can turn bad
very quickly.

Dennis


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Dennis]

At 12:34 PM 3/10/00 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> >What are their alternatives?  Think about how the world is waking up to
>> >Open Source.  Think about how companies are realizing that a small group
>> >of paid engineers simply can't keep up with a world-wide organization of
>> >contributors.  What would you do if you didn't feel you could keep up?

Open Source is a lot of bunk. People want stuff that works. Linux is
growing in popularity because since 2.2 came out it actually works well.
Linux had the marketing in place and they are soaring. We sell 10 to 1
linux now. I was getting bloodied pushing FreeBSD. Its like selling tax
custs to poor people. Its bad politics, no matter how right it is.

the people buying linux servers from VAR research and the like dont care
about source, they care about functinality. Thats why BSDI doesnt get it.
its not about the source, its about the price. People perceive that BSD/OS
and FreeBSD are substantially similar in functionalty, and freebsd is free.
The source is only important to a tiny, tiny portion of the market. The
hackers list is not the market...corporate america is the market. 

We all have source to the eepro driver but if DG doesnt fix it it doesnt
get fixed. I'll take a driver that works anyday over the option to fix it
myself. and so will most commercial entities.

>> 
>> They dont have to keep up. They just have to add some bells and whistles
>> and package it (ala RedHat), which is probably what BSDI plans to do. They
>> just want to get in on the Open Source Maniathey see RedHat drawing all

>> that money with no real product...
>
>Red Hat contributes more than "bells and whistles" to Linux. They also
>pay many developers to work on Linux fulltime. They are certainly not
>Linux in it's entirety, but I see no reason to demean what they do.

Im not demeaning it. But they have no product. Anyone can take what they've
done and steal it, so as a company they have no security. Their support is
meaningless (I've never gotten a response to any question,and I did
purchase the full boxed product)its all hoopla. Good marketing. Great
marketing. But they dont have any assets. They made it easier to load,
which launched linux, but there are now scads of competitors and there will
be more.

>> BSDI is a very poorly run company and the principals are the same. They
>> have good engineers and terrible management. They've completely missed the
>> boat all along, they have been trying to compete with Microsoft instead of
>> Linux, which is a terrible mistake. ..I dont see any change that will make
>> things any different. Their new CEO is an old world guy who's been there a
>> long time...he's not an internet guy and not likely to do anything
>> spectacular. Hes been their director of marketing through their market
>> share freefall, so why will he do better as CEO?
>
>I think that FreeBSD has hurt them far more than Linux has. People who are
>in the BSD arena have probably already dismissed Linux for whatever
>reasons, and when their choices are FreeBSD or BSD/OS..

The "strategy" is not to sell to existing BSD-heads. Its to create
incremental business. BSDI doesnt do all that advertsiing just to appeal to
existing die hards. They are trying to get people to use their product
instead of NT. Instead of Linux. The existing BSD market is too small. They
have failed to convince the world that BSD is the answer. Outside of the
US. linux is totally dominant. 

Although in the BSD arena you are right. I told the DOM of BSDI at a show
that their decision to support our competitors card in their OS and shun
everyone else cost them hundreds of sales a year, because all the BSD/OS
people just switched to FreeBSD. They still dont get it. Whats really funny
is that while I was in the booth, 3 people came up and asked if they had
FreeBSD. They were noticably annoyed.


DB



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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Sam Leffler]

- Original Message -
From: "Didier Derny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2000 3:02 AM
Subject: Is FreeBSD dead ?


> Hi,
>
> I've just read the announcement of the merge of BSDI and Walnut Creek
> CDROM. (March 10 2000).
>
> I guess it's a sad day for FreeBSD. I can't imagine how a company selling
> it's own BSD could at the same time let another BSD free.
>
> Has the FreeBSD project become the test-bed for BSDI ? or
> the single user evaluation of BSDI...
>

Not sure what announcement you read (no URL provided), but if you look at
http://www.bsdi.com/press/2310.mhtml you'll see the following:

"BSDI will continue to develop, enhance and distribute BSD/OS and FreeBSD
according to the terms of the business-friendly, unencumbered Berkeley
software license, which encourages development for open source software
projects, embedded systems, specialized applications, information appliances
and other operating system-enabled products.
BSDI will expand and accelerate Walnut Creek CDROM's FreeBSD open source
initiatives by sharing BSD/OS technical innovations with the FreeBSD Project
and by providing this open source project with operational and technical
support, marketing and funding. BSDI will continue to distribute packaged
versions of FreeBSD and also plans to develop value-added products based on
FreeBSD as well as to provide technical support, consulting services,
educational services and training for FreeBSD customers. These steps are
expected to promote and invigorate the BSD open source computing movement.
The FreeBSD Project develops the popular FreeBSD operating system and
aggregates and integrates contributed software from more than 5,000
developers worldwide."

which clearly states that FreeBSD will benefit greatly from this action.

FWIW I'm the person that was responsible for 4.2BSD (and lots of the code
you still find in FreeBSD) and based on my information you've got things
very wrong.

Sam






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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Wes Peters]

Didier Derny wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I've just read the announcement of the merge of BSDI and Walnut Creek
> CDROM. (March 10 2000).
> 
> I guess it's a sad day for FreeBSD. I can't imagine how a company selling
> it's own BSD could at the same time let another BSD free.
> 
> Has the FreeBSD project become the test-bed for BSDI ? or
> the single user evaluation of BSDI...

Apparently you didn't read all of the press release.  The BSDI technology
will be folded into FreeBSD, which will remain free and open.  What this
really means is that there will be several more people paid to work on
FreeBSD full time, and to bring exciting new technologies to FreeBSD 5.0.
There will also be a professional support organization that can offer
support contracts for FreeBSD if you wish to purchase one.

I fail to see how you can read anything bad into this announcement.  If
you're really concerned, you have just as much right to the code as any
one else, feel free to take the 4.0 code base and create your own system.
BSDidier has a nice ring to it.

Personally, I've been running FreeBSD since 1.0, and I'll be sticking 
with it for quite some time to come.

-- 
"Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

Wes Peters Softweyr LLC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://softweyr.com/


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Michael Bacarella]

> >What are their alternatives?  Think about how the world is waking up to
> >Open Source.  Think about how companies are realizing that a small group
> >of paid engineers simply can't keep up with a world-wide organization of
> >contributors.  What would you do if you didn't feel you could keep up?
> 
> They dont have to keep up. They just have to add some bells and whistles
> and package it (ala RedHat), which is probably what BSDI plans to do. They
> just want to get in on the Open Source Maniathey see RedHat drawing all
> that money with no real product...

Red Hat contributes more than "bells and whistles" to Linux. They also
pay many developers to work on Linux fulltime. They are certainly not
Linux in it's entirety, but I see no reason to demean what they do.

> >If BSD Inc. were to "buy out" FreeBSD with the sole purpose of reducing
> >competition, they'd be a bunch of idiots.  The volunteers that make
> >FreeBSD great now would move on to something else and _that_ would soon
> >become the new threat.
> 
> They can't stop a branch from forming...the question is who will run the
> branch?

Or worse, if someone just forked FreeBSD right now in protest of the merge.

> >I think that there is only cause for concern if the folks at BSD Inc.
> >are a bunch of idiots.  Thus, I'm not concerned. ;-)
 
> BSDI is a very poorly run company and the principals are the same. They
> have good engineers and terrible management. They've completely missed the
> boat all along, they have been trying to compete with Microsoft instead of
> Linux, which is a terrible mistake. ..I dont see any change that will make
> things any different. Their new CEO is an old world guy who's been there a
> long time...he's not an internet guy and not likely to do anything
> spectacular. Hes been their director of marketing through their market
> share freefall, so why will he do better as CEO?

I think that FreeBSD has hurt them far more than Linux has. People who are
in the BSD arena have probably already dismissed Linux for whatever
reasons, and when their choices are FreeBSD or BSD/OS..

A BSDI represenative tried for days to convince me over the phone why I
should pay for BSD/OS even though FreeBSD was free, or at least a CD
order away, and FreeBSD even has source code.

I asked about why we should buy a product that we don't have the source
code to, and he simply said "because the (cr)hackers don't have our code."

Yes. Although their marketing is terrible, competing against FreeBSD
when your product is like FreeBSD, but costs more money, and does not 
come with source... you can't expect them to keep that up.

> They've been buying full page ads for years and BSD is far from a household
> word. Unfortunately, as much as I like freebsd, FreeBSD isnt the answer.
> People want linux. Its a toy, and people like toys. 

Cram it.

-MB



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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Louis A. Mamakos]

> As long as they keep their grubbly little hands off of it, and dont let the
> ciscos and uunets of the world (who both own a piece of bsdi) dictate
> policy, and as long as several key developers dont go work for BSDI (they
> would have already if they were going to I think)it shouldnt be much
> different.

As far as I know, UUNET had to divest their equity interest in BSDI at
the time that we (UUNET) went public years ago (or maybe it was when
we took some VC funding.. too long ago now.)   The AT&T lawsuit was
still simmering at the time, and that degree of uncertainty was deemed
hostile to raising money.

In retrospect, UUNET probably should have kept a piece.  Over the past
few years, UUNET has funded BSDI to add specific features (like doing
the SPARC port) but that was a conceptually simple contracting
arrangement that resulted in the code being available to all BSDI
users.

What's interesting in all this is to consider all the various Internet
embedded application "wins" that FreeBSD and BSDI have.  Just the
ones that I can think about off the top of my head: Juniper Networks,
Mirapoint, Whistle (FreeBSD) and Ascend in the GRF platform (BSDI).
There are certainly others that escape me at the moment.  BSDI has
a nice embedded packaging of their product, and FreeBSD has gone in
that direction too with things like PicoBSD.  I think there's a big
potential here to vigerously pursue that high-reliablity Internet
infrastructure market with the combinations of the technology.  In
particular, BSDI can bring the support for those "vertical" applications
for OEM's that want to buy it.

These are obviously just my opinions, influenced by low blood sugar,
and not necessarily those of UUNET's.

louie
(aka [EMAIL PROTECTED])




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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Dennis]

At 02:27 PM 3/10/00 +0200, you wrote:
>
>
>On Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:00:20 +0100, Johnathan Meehan wrote:
>
>> That is not fair, Sheldon. Didier has some concerns, and I cannot
>> blame him.
>
>I guess what I wrote makes for a very harsh comment in isolation from
>the grin I had on my face while I was typing. :-)
>
>> I find it difficult to believe that a group of people who have worked so
>> hard for so long to produce a superior product will walk away from it, or
>> see it corrupted.
>
>What are their alternatives?  Think about how the world is waking up to
>Open Source.  Think about how companies are realizing that a small group
>of paid engineers simply can't keep up with a world-wide organization of
>contributors.  What would you do if you didn't feel you could keep up?

They dont have to keep up. They just have to add some bells and whistles
and package it (ala RedHat), which is probably what BSDI plans to do. They
just want to get in on the Open Source Maniathey see RedHat drawing all
that money with no real product...

As long as they keep their grubbly little hands off of it, and dont let the
ciscos and uunets of the world (who both own a piece of bsdi) dictate
policy, and as long as several key developers dont go work for BSDI (they
would have already if they were going to I think)it shouldnt be much
different.


>If BSD Inc. were to "buy out" FreeBSD with the sole purpose of reducing
>competition, they'd be a bunch of idiots.  The volunteers that make
>FreeBSD great now would move on to something else and _that_ would soon
>become the new threat.

They can't stop a branch from forming...the question is who will run the
branch?
>
>However, if BSD Inc. were to use FreeBSD as the base platform and sell
>extra toys and service along with it, they'd benefit directly from the
>volunteer energy of the project.

>I think that there is only cause for concern if the folks at BSD Inc.
>are a bunch of idiots.  Thus, I'm not concerned. ;-)

BSDI is a very poorly run company and the principals are the same. They
have good engineers and terrible management. They've completely missed the
boat all along, they have been trying to compete with Microsoft instead of
Linux, which is a terrible mistake. ..I dont see any change that will make
things any different. Their new CEO is an old world guy who's been there a
long time...he's not an internet guy and not likely to do anything
spectacular. Hes been their director of marketing through their market
share freefall, so why will he do better as CEO?

They've been buying full page ads for years and BSD is far from a household
word. Unfortunately, as much as I like freebsd, FreeBSD isnt the answer.
People want linux. Its a toy, and people like toys. 

Dennis

Emerging Technologies, Inc.

-


http://www.etinc.com
ISA and PCI T1/T3/V35/HSSI Cards for FreeBSD and LINUX
Multiport T1 and HSSI/T3 UNIX-based Routers
Bandwidth Management Standalone Systems
Bandwidth Management software for LINUX and FreeBSD


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Sheldon Hearn]

On Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:00:20 +0100, Johnathan Meehan wrote:

> That is not fair, Sheldon. Didier has some concerns, and I cannot
> blame him.

I guess what I wrote makes for a very harsh comment in isolation from
the grin I had on my face while I was typing. :-)

> I find it difficult to believe that a group of people who have worked so
> hard for so long to produce a superior product will walk away from it, or
> see it corrupted.

What are their alternatives?  Think about how the world is waking up to
Open Source.  Think about how companies are realizing that a small group
of paid engineers simply can't keep up with a world-wide organization of
contributors.  What would you do if you didn't feel you could keep up?

If BSD Inc. were to "buy out" FreeBSD with the sole purpose of reducing
competition, they'd be a bunch of idiots.  The volunteers that make
FreeBSD great now would move on to something else and _that_ would soon
become the new threat.

However, if BSD Inc. were to use FreeBSD as the base platform and sell
extra toys and service along with it, they'd benefit directly from the
volunteer energy of the project.

I think that there is only cause for concern if the folks at BSD Inc.
are a bunch of idiots.  Thus, I'm not concerned. ;-)

> I'm sure you chaps know what you are doing, but some of us believe
> that Eris is great friends with Murphy.

I only contribute to FreeBSD because it's an Open Source project and
because FreeBSD has the most impotus in the BSD family.  If FreeBSD
stops being free, I'd reconsider my willingness to contribute.

I think BSD Inc. have acknowledged the impotus the FreeBSD Porject has
and are looking to jump on the bandwagon.  Looks like a really good
thing for both BSD Inc. and the FreeBSD project. :-)

Ciao,
Sheldon.


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory...

[Johnathan Meehan]

Hi,

> You're going to feel like a real idiot when you actually read the
> announcement properly.  Go back and read it through from beginning to
> end. :-)

That is not fair, Sheldon. Didier has some concerns, and I cannot blame him.
I'm reassured by the comments that have been made, both here and other
places, but I am afraid that whilst not jumping ship, I will be watching the
development of FreeBSD with a /very/ suspicious eye.

I find it difficult to believe that a group of people who have worked so
hard for so long to produce a superior product will walk away from it, or
see it corrupted. However, on the other hand, when I hear managment type
terms such as "features" and "adding value" with reference to the commercial
offering I do wonder just how the FreeBSD project will be affected in
_reality_ and not just in _theory_. I am personally waiting to hear more
information, particularly from the commercial side, and perhaps then my
suspicious mind may be relieved somewhat.

I'm sure you chaps know what you are doing, but some of us believe that Eris
is great friends with Murphy.

Regards,

Johnathan Meehan




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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Max Khon]

hi, there!

On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Didier Derny wrote:

> I've just read the announcement of the merge of BSDI and Walnut Creek 
> CDROM. (March 10 2000).
> 
> I guess it's a sad day for FreeBSD. I can't imagine how a company selling
> it's own BSD could at the same time let another BSD free.
> 
> Has the FreeBSD project become the test-bed for BSDI ? or 
> the single user evaluation of BSDI...
> 
> Il FreeBSD dedicated to become the 'RedHat' of BSD (when you know the
> junk sold by redhat.
> 
> I think it is time to think to something else NetBSD ? OpenBSD ? Linux
> (which one?)
> 
> I've been using FreeBSD since August 1994 (FreeBSD 1.1.5.1)

FUD

/fjoe



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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Mike Bristow]

On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 11:02:38AM +, Didier Derny wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I've just read the announcement of the merge of BSDI and Walnut Creek 
> CDROM. (March 10 2000).
> 
> I guess it's a sad day for FreeBSD. I can't imagine how a company selling
> it's own BSD could at the same time let another BSD free.

I can.  cf RedHat selling RH CDs, but having the .iso images and all
the RPMs downloadable.

> Has the FreeBSD project become the test-bed for BSDI ? or 
> the single user evaluation of BSDI...

I doubt it.  If it starts to happen, well, there's a fairly good
set of source we could use as a base which I've got lieing around
on a HDD somewhere.  I got it from cvsup3.uk.freebsd.org; you might
have heard of them...

> I think it is time to think to something else NetBSD ? OpenBSD ? Linux
> (which one?)

If I were you I'd wait for an actual problem before jumping ship.

-- 
Mike Bristow, seebitwopie  ``There's a lot to be said for shagging''


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Sheldon Hearn]

On Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:02:38 GMT, Didier Derny wrote:

> I've just read the announcement of the merge of BSDI and Walnut Creek 
> CDROM. (March 10 2000).
> 
> I guess it's a sad day for FreeBSD. I can't imagine how a company selling
> it's own BSD could at the same time let another BSD free.

You're going to feel like a real idiot when you actually read the
announcement properly.  Go back and read it through from beginning to
end. :-)

Ciao,
Sheldon.


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Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Neil Blakey-Milner]

On Fri 2000-03-10 (11:02), Didier Derny wrote:
> I've just read the announcement of the merge of BSDI and Walnut Creek 
> CDROM. (March 10 2000).
> 
> I guess it's a sad day for FreeBSD. I can't imagine how a company selling
> it's own BSD could at the same time let another BSD free.

Let's hope your mailbox doesn't get filled with replies.

Which announcement did you read?  You really should read the
daemonnews one, as it covers a lot of stuff that should reassure
you.  The slashdot interviews with Bob, Jordan, and Mike should
also do so.  In my discussions with the various stakeholders, I
must say I'm confident of this move.

> I think it is time to think to something else NetBSD ? OpenBSD ? Linux
> (which one?)

One of the things that I can assure you, is that if anything untoward
occurs (which I'm sure will not) it's easy enough to just rename
the project and carry on with the existing code.  There's nothing
that can be done to prevent it, and you'd basically have FreeBSD
again.  Walnut Creek doesn't own FreeBSD, so BSDI can't buy FreeBSD
via Walnut Creek.

So, no, FreeBSD certainly isn't dead.  If anything, things will
become even more lively! (:

Neil
-- 
Neil Blakey-Milner
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Is FreeBSD dead ?

[Didier Derny]

Hi,

I've just read the announcement of the merge of BSDI and Walnut Creek 
CDROM. (March 10 2000).

I guess it's a sad day for FreeBSD. I can't imagine how a company selling
it's own BSD could at the same time let another BSD free.

Has the FreeBSD project become the test-bed for BSDI ? or 
the single user evaluation of BSDI...

Il FreeBSD dedicated to become the 'RedHat' of BSD (when you know the
junk sold by redhat.

I think it is time to think to something else NetBSD ? OpenBSD ? Linux
(which one?)

I've been using FreeBSD since August 1994 (FreeBSD 1.1.5.1)

-- 
Didier Derny
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


  



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