Re: OT: Robotics or embedded or hardware programming... what is this called?

[Ian Smith]

In freebsd-questions Digest, Vol 420, Issue 10, Message: 17
On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 19:54:27 -0600 Modulok  wrote:

 > Sorry for the off-topic post. There are a lot of technically adept people on
 > this list, so I thought I'd try my luck here:

On recent volcanic form, this scarcely measures on the OT scale :)

 > I want to get started programming for hardware. Motors, sensors, actuators, 
 > etc.
 > I have a programming background, (python, PHP, C++) but no experience with 
 > code
 > that drives hardware. (Motors, sensors, etc.)
 > 
 > I *don't* want closed-source "kit robots" where the point is to build the 
 > robot
 > the book and thats it. I also don't want ladder logic-based PMC's. Some kind 
 > of
 > micro-controller that runs a *nix flavor (or a BSD flavor!) would be great! 
 > (If
 > that's what I need.) Basically, I want to do stuff like "if input1() is True
 > then apply_voltage_on_output3()", etc. Build my own traffic light, coffee
 > maker, mars rover, automatic-plant waterer, whatever.

Sure.  Fun and potentially profitable stuff.  Wish I had a spare life ..

 > What do you call this? Embedded programming? Generic hardware programming?
 > Robotics programming? Are there prefabricated, standard embedded boards and
 > hardware specs that play together like PC parts do? In short, I don't even 
 > know
 > where to start.

Try browsing from http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-embedded/ 
to see if that's of interest.  Getting FreeBSD up on various embedded 
platforms is the focus there, but I've seen robotics references too.

I see also, but haven't explored these (both look moderately busy):
 http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-arm/
 http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-mips/

 > Even general pointers to books/websites would be great. Once I know what it's
 > called I can google much more effectively ;)

I think once you find a platform you're interested in, you'll google up 
a perhaps bewildering array of support websites and forums, with books 
to suit.  For me it's about the processor instruction set and hardware 
functionality, but I gather you're looking for higher level language 
implementations, so you'll want to sniff and taste a few.

I thought I saw something somewhere (maybe just wishful thinking) about 
FreeBSD on the Arduino, which normally runs a sort of embedded Linux, 
that could be very interesting; the hardware is cheap (kits at Jaycar 
stores in Australia anyway), very modular design, and there are heaps of 
fascinating projects.  I want the quadricopter to follow me around the 
room at parties - at my age I need something really impressive :)

On the FreeBSD side there's advanced work, I gather, on ARM and Atmel 
MEGA 32-bit and MIPS platforms at least.  Personally I consider these 
'big iron' and far prefer writing in macro assembler for little Atmel 
Tiny25s and such, but that's strictly "Look Ma, no OS!" programming.

cheers, Ian
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Re: CLANG vs GCC tests of fortran/f2c program

[Volodymyr Kostyrko]

Chad Perrin wrote:

Someone in this extended discussion mentioned that there are efforts
underway to make sure the base system will compile cleanly with both
Clang and GCC 4.2+, so I think you're just making up complaints here.
Someone (other than Wojciech Puchar, who would just be talking out of his
ass) correct me if I'm mistaken.


That was me. I don't have pure facts but I read svn logs daily. Today we 
have a bunch of:



r237428 | eadler | 2012-06-22 08:48:53 +0300 (пт, 22 чер 2012) | 5 lines

MFC r237253:
Remove variables which are initialized but never used 
thereafter reported by gcc46 warning


Approved by:cperciva (implicit)

So at least there are some people working on polishing CURRENT/STABLE up 
to the point it will build with gcc46.


--
Sphinx of black quartz judge my vow.
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Re: USB system: FreeBSD 9-STABLE and 10-CURRENT do not recognize 64GB USB drive while Linux and Windows do

[Wojciech Puchar]

incapable of handling the 64GB drive. I do not have issues with USB


it's not about capacity. But seems some quirks for that pendrive (which 
have buggy firmware) has to be added, as it doesn't respond for inquiry 
command.


sorry i am not USB expert.


umass1:  on usbus7
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): INQUIRY. CDB: 12 0 0 0 24 0
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): CAM status: CCB request completed with an error
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): Retrying command
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): INQUIRY. CDB: 12 0 0 0 24 0
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): CAM status: CCB request completed with an error
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): Retrying command
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): INQUIRY. CDB: 12 0 0 0 24 0
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): CAM status: CCB request completed with an error
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): Retrying command
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): INQUIRY. CDB: 12 0 0 0 24 0
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): CAM status: CCB request completed with an error
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): Retrying command
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): INQUIRY. CDB: 12 0 0 0 24 0
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): CAM status: CCB request completed with an error
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): Error 5, Retries exhausted



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Re: Why Clang

[Wojciech Puchar]

I would see a problem with that -- not because I don't think FreeBSD is
worth it.  I do, and I think it is worth more than that, in fact.  The


true.


biggest problem with what you propose, though, is that it would destroy
the social factors in development of the FreeBSD system that make it what
it is, and thus destroy FreeBSD itself, as far as I am concerned.


I am not sure, as long as clients would be treated seriously!


I would have thought that even you should be able to understand that
without help.

another personal attack? I though i talk with adults.


For paying this i would like FreeBSD to be maintained with quality
and performance being the only reason, not politics.


Turning it into a commercial enterprise rather than an open source
project would probably turn it into a project that is driven about 60% by
corporate politics and 40% by marketing BS, with no room left over for
quality except as needed to support the minimum credibility its CEO deems
necessary to support those two concerns.

It depends solely on development team.

For now - as we see - it's decision are driven by money.
But not all users money but few selected large users.


must be stopped.


You seem to think this is all about Juniper.  I wonder where you get that


Not JUST juniper.


It is only "i hate GNU" type decision.


No, it's not only that.  It's *also* that, and with good reason.  Good

I hate too, and in spite of this am against removing gcc and
replacing it with much worse product.


"Worse" based on a couple of very narrowly applicable metrics derived


There will be IMHO soon good compiler available. it's highly probable that 
pcc would improve a lot, for now it is small, quick but doesn't produce 
good code for new CPUs. But it probably will improve.


CLANG is already great bloat, and will be worse.

No amount of money will fix it, actually too much money will hurt.
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Re: USB system: FreeBSD 9-STABLE and 10-CURRENT do not recognize 64GB USB drive while Linux and Windows do

[Hans Petter Selasky]

On Friday 22 June 2012 08:01:38 O. Hartmann wrote:
> I have a USB drive/stick, Lexar USB Flash drive as reported by FreeBSD
> shown below.
> When first used, I was able to put approx. 30 GB of data on it - it was
> visible to FreeBSD 9 and 10 as expected.
> A Linux system at the lab was also capable of recognizing it. After
> that, I tried to operate on the stick on a Notebook, FreeBSD 9, and
> another station, FreeBSD 10. But FreeBSD didn't recognize the USB drive
> anymore - sometimes, but this seems to be a gambling issue :-(
> 
> Trying Linux on different hardware platforms and even those machines
> prior not recognizing the USB drive do recognize the drive as Lexar USB
> Flash drive with 64GB. That is Suse Linux (some 12.XX), that is Ubuntu
> 12.04, that is Windows 7 Pro/x64. I can format the drive, I can push and
> pull data from it.
> 
> So, since the USB drive won't work with three different FreeBSD boxes
> (one running 9-STABLE, two 10-CURRENT, all systems most recent sources
> and buildworld from a day ago).
> I suspect either a weird configuration issue I use on all platforms in
> questions in common triggering the weird beviour - or FreeBSD is simply
> incapable of handling the 64GB drive. I do not have issues with USB
> drives with capacities of 32, 8 or 4 GB of different brands.
> 
> As shown in the portion of the dmesg below, the USB drive is recognized
> physically. It doesn't matter whether USB port I use (I tried all
> available on all boxes and in most cases I use a Dell UltraSharp powered
> in-screen HUB). Since other OSes handle the drive as expected, I exclude
> hardware issues.
> 
> All FreeBSD in common is the fact I use the new device ahaci/device ata
> CAM/ATA scheme with devcie scbus in the kernel (I use custom kernels!).
> 
> Apart from trying a GENERIC kernel (which is next I will do this
> weekend), does anyone have similar experiences and probably solutions?
> 
> Regards,
> oh
> 
> ugen7.6:  at usbus7
> umass1:  on
> usbus7 (probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): INQUIRY. CDB: 12 0 0 0 24 0
> (probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): CAM status: CCB request completed with an error
> (probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): Retrying command
> (probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): INQUIRY. CDB: 12 0 0 0 24 0
> (probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): CAM status: CCB request completed with an error
> (probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): Retrying command
> (probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): INQUIRY. CDB: 12 0 0 0 24 0
> (probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): CAM status: CCB request completed with an error
> (probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): Retrying command
> (probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): INQUIRY. CDB: 12 0 0 0 24 0
> (probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): CAM status: CCB request completed with an error
> (probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): Retrying command
> (probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): INQUIRY. CDB: 12 0 0 0 24 0
> (probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): CAM status: CCB request completed with an error
> (probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): Error 5, Retries exhausted

Hi,

After plugging the device, try:

usbconfig -d 7.6 add_quirk UQ_MSC_NO_INQUIRY

Then re-plug it.

I'm sorry to say a lot of USB flash sticks out there are broken and only 
tested with the timing of MS Windows. Part of the problem is that it is 
difficult to autodetect these issues, because once you trigger the non-
supported SCSI command, then the flash key stops working like you experience.

I would be more than glad to open up an office to certify USB devices for use 
with FreeBSD :-)

--HPS
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Re: USB system: FreeBSD 9-STABLE and 10-CURRENT do not recognize 64GB USB drive while Linux and Windows do

[Garrett Cooper]

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 11:01 PM, O. Hartmann
 wrote:
> I have a USB drive/stick, Lexar USB Flash drive as reported by FreeBSD
> shown below.
> When first used, I was able to put approx. 30 GB of data on it - it was
> visible to FreeBSD 9 and 10 as expected.
> A Linux system at the lab was also capable of recognizing it. After
> that, I tried to operate on the stick on a Notebook, FreeBSD 9, and
> another station, FreeBSD 10. But FreeBSD didn't recognize the USB drive
> anymore - sometimes, but this seems to be a gambling issue :-(
>
> Trying Linux on different hardware platforms and even those machines
> prior not recognizing the USB drive do recognize the drive as Lexar USB
> Flash drive with 64GB. That is Suse Linux (some 12.XX), that is Ubuntu
> 12.04, that is Windows 7 Pro/x64. I can format the drive, I can push and
> pull data from it.
>
> So, since the USB drive won't work with three different FreeBSD boxes
> (one running 9-STABLE, two 10-CURRENT, all systems most recent sources
> and buildworld from a day ago).
> I suspect either a weird configuration issue I use on all platforms in
> questions in common triggering the weird beviour - or FreeBSD is simply
> incapable of handling the 64GB drive. I do not have issues with USB
> drives with capacities of 32, 8 or 4 GB of different brands.
>
> As shown in the portion of the dmesg below, the USB drive is recognized
> physically. It doesn't matter whether USB port I use (I tried all
> available on all boxes and in most cases I use a Dell UltraSharp powered
> in-screen HUB). Since other OSes handle the drive as expected, I exclude
> hardware issues.
>
> All FreeBSD in common is the fact I use the new device ahaci/device ata
> CAM/ATA scheme with devcie scbus in the kernel (I use custom kernels!).
>
> Apart from trying a GENERIC kernel (which is next I will do this
> weekend), does anyone have similar experiences and probably solutions?

I don't personally have any relevant experience with this device,
but having the exact revisions of code where this was working and
where it was failing would be helpful, in order to perform a binary
search to determine whether or not this is a regression.
Thanks,
-Garrett
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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Wojciech Puchar]

OK, if you have 24 2-way mirrors and two drives in the same mirror fail
then with UFS you lose the contents of that mirror. Other filesystems in
the same box are fine. Restores from backups are going to be easy since
the backups are probably arranged to be per-filesystem.


true. i actually don't have 48-disk machine but do have 9 disks (one SSD+8 
2TB SATA).



So far I think we're in agreement.


Still as i said - even with ZFS i would make 24 pools, not one. this thing 
is not filesystem dependent.




But this doesn't address two issues:

1) There are other arrangements of ZFS that can tolerate more failed
  disks if you are willing to spend more money. ZFS supports n-way
  mirrors, so you can have mirrors with three or four disks if you

as well as gmirror.


  a raidz2 set (with multiple raidz2 sets per pool).


i will not use raidz1/2/3 because if catastrophically low performance. the 
design of ZFS makes sure you'll get read performance of single drive from 
whole pool.


Disks are already performance limiting part of computer.


2) That this failure can happen doesn't address the question of the
  production-ready status of ZFS.

The question of "production ready" is not a boolean. It is a question of


What i meant from beginning is not that ZFS is not "yet" production ready 
but it will never be because of design decisions.


It have "cool" features, giving danger, huge hardware usage (RAM,CPU) and 
low I/O performance.



risks and of money used to mitigate those risks. I suggest asking the
question on the zfs-discuss list over at opensolaris.org since there are
probably many more people there who make serious use of ZFS daily.


I will not. Serious people should know how ZFS work. if they still want to 
use it seriuosly then i cannot help any more.



gs1p   159G  73.1G 39 12  2.34M  70.7K
 mirror   159G  73.1G 39 12  2.34M  70.7K
   gpt/CONST_2-9XE02KPK-zfs  -  - 19  5  1.94M  69.4K
   gpt/SAVVIO-6XQ10F80-zfs   -  - 21  5  1.93M  79.5K
   gpt/SAVVIO-6XQ103C7-zfs   -  - 21  5  1.93M  79.5K
100GB+ of FreeBSD being served up (IP 206.196.19.100 if you care to check
FreeBSD's stats pages). And the torrents can be easily replaced if something
really bad happens.


3 very expensive drives.
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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Wojciech Puchar]

This is a valid argument. Checksumming is used to detect cases where the
disk or the disk controller return invalid data to the CPU. This can happen
for any number of reasons and isn't that unlikely. "Unrecoverable read
error" probabilities are high enough with common drives that you can
reasonably see them after reading 10-20TB over the course of some small
number of years. And that's assuming no firmware bugs, no flakey cables,
and no other of a variety of potential issues.



this needs scrubbing. Can be done both with ZFS and anything else.
just use dd periodically.


I use ZFS. I like ZFS. But I also acknowledge that a zfs_fsck would be
useful in cases where a filesystem is botched enough that it can't be


but seems you don't have any serious use for ZFS if you can take that risk 
just because you "like" ZFS.

I cannot.
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USB system: FreeBSD 9-STABLE and 10-CURRENT do not recognize 64GB USB drive while Linux and Windows do

[O. Hartmann]

I have a USB drive/stick, Lexar USB Flash drive as reported by FreeBSD
shown below.
When first used, I was able to put approx. 30 GB of data on it - it was
visible to FreeBSD 9 and 10 as expected.
A Linux system at the lab was also capable of recognizing it. After
that, I tried to operate on the stick on a Notebook, FreeBSD 9, and
another station, FreeBSD 10. But FreeBSD didn't recognize the USB drive
anymore - sometimes, but this seems to be a gambling issue :-(

Trying Linux on different hardware platforms and even those machines
prior not recognizing the USB drive do recognize the drive as Lexar USB
Flash drive with 64GB. That is Suse Linux (some 12.XX), that is Ubuntu
12.04, that is Windows 7 Pro/x64. I can format the drive, I can push and
pull data from it.

So, since the USB drive won't work with three different FreeBSD boxes
(one running 9-STABLE, two 10-CURRENT, all systems most recent sources
and buildworld from a day ago).
I suspect either a weird configuration issue I use on all platforms in
questions in common triggering the weird beviour - or FreeBSD is simply
incapable of handling the 64GB drive. I do not have issues with USB
drives with capacities of 32, 8 or 4 GB of different brands.

As shown in the portion of the dmesg below, the USB drive is recognized
physically. It doesn't matter whether USB port I use (I tried all
available on all boxes and in most cases I use a Dell UltraSharp powered
in-screen HUB). Since other OSes handle the drive as expected, I exclude
hardware issues.

All FreeBSD in common is the fact I use the new device ahaci/device ata
CAM/ATA scheme with devcie scbus in the kernel (I use custom kernels!).

Apart from trying a GENERIC kernel (which is next I will do this
weekend), does anyone have similar experiences and probably solutions?

Regards,
oh

ugen7.6:  at usbus7
umass1:  on usbus7
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): INQUIRY. CDB: 12 0 0 0 24 0
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): CAM status: CCB request completed with an error
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): Retrying command
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): INQUIRY. CDB: 12 0 0 0 24 0
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): CAM status: CCB request completed with an error
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): Retrying command
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): INQUIRY. CDB: 12 0 0 0 24 0
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): CAM status: CCB request completed with an error
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): Retrying command
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): INQUIRY. CDB: 12 0 0 0 24 0
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): CAM status: CCB request completed with an error
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): Retrying command
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): INQUIRY. CDB: 12 0 0 0 24 0
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): CAM status: CCB request completed with an error
(probe0:umass-sim1:1:0:0): Error 5, Retries exhausted



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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Flaming mailing lists (was Re: Why Clang)

[Erich Dollansky]

Hi,

On Friday 22 June 2012 12:04:35 Bernt Hansson wrote:
> 2012-06-22 06:50, Erich Dollansky skrev:
> > On Friday 22 June 2012 11:18:01 Bernt Hansson wrote:
> >> 2012-06-21 10:59, fred.mor...@gmail.com skrev:
> >>> we have feelings too!!!
> >> 
> >> Ouch! Another "feeling" person. Can't you just stop this feeling stuff.
> > 
> > do not forget the feelings regarding the devil.
> 
> Aaa. Yes the "devil" That fill's my whole body with concrete.
> 
yes, this is the guy. You can consider yourself lucky that he uses only 
concrete. Bad guys like me get liquid steel.

> I want to whish all a very mery Midsummer's Eve and Midsummer's Day

Oh yeah, you celebrate this only on the following weekend. Enjoy!

Erich
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Re: Flaming mailing lists (was Re: Why Clang)

[Bernt Hansson]

2012-06-22 06:50, Erich Dollansky skrev:

Hi,

On Friday 22 June 2012 11:18:01 Bernt Hansson wrote:

2012-06-21 10:59, fred.mor...@gmail.com skrev:

we have feelings too!!!


Ouch! Another "feeling" person. Can't you just stop this feeling stuff.


do not forget the feelings regarding the devil.


Aaa. Yes the "devil" That fill's my whole body with concrete.

I want to whish all a very mery Midsummer's Eve and Midsummer's Day

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midsummer#Sweden
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Re: Flaming mailing lists (was Re: Why Clang)

[Erich Dollansky]

Hi,

On Friday 22 June 2012 11:18:01 Bernt Hansson wrote:
> 2012-06-21 10:59, fred.mor...@gmail.com skrev:
> > we have feelings too!!!
> 
> Ouch! Another "feeling" person. Can't you just stop this feeling stuff.
> 
do not forget the feelings regarding the devil.

Erich
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Re: Why Clang

[Chad Perrin]

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 07:30:23PM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote:
> >Because there's no reason to do that. It's an asinine suggestion.
> >
> >Clang is here to stay. Most of us are happy about that decision. GCC
> 
> Because most that are not already stopped and ignored thing. and use GCC.
> 
> Politics won.

Development benefits are not "politics".

Easier distribution is not "politics".

More responsive upstream developers are not "politics".

You ignoring all of these points and more that have been brought up, some
by me, *is* evidently "politics" -- because you are seeking a political
capitulation to your willfully ignorant demands.  Politics *lose*, so
far, and for that I am grateful.

. . . but if it makes you feel better to whisper to yourself that all
opposition to your position (even when you ignore it and have not
bothered to actually read and understand it) is just "politics", go
ahead, as long as it doesn't perpetuate this wholly unnecessary griping
on the mailing list.

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]
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Re: Why Clang

[Chad Perrin]

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 01:06:12PM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote:
> >for commercial sponsors of FreeBSD, it has zero bearing on FreeBSD itself. 
> >If FreeBSD appears
> >as a subsidiary of some commercial company (say Juniper) i am not sure this 
> >will be good
> 
> I think any project that size is actually a subsidiary and must be.
> 
> I just don't like that it isn't stated openly! It is nothing wrong,
> unless one can feed using zero point energy, everyone needs money to
> stay alive.
> 
> Wouldn't it be smarter to openly say "Juniper request as to get rid
> o GPL as soon as we can because they are fed up with this shit and
> law mess." instead of personal attacks, messing with my (and others)
> sentences and posting evident lies just to "explain" the decision.
> 
> It is a difference between honest people and fools.
> 
> i already proposed (but not publically) to turn FreeBSD into
> commercial system.
> 
> REALLY i would not see a problem to pay say 100$ per server licence.

I would see a problem with that -- not because I don't think FreeBSD is
worth it.  I do, and I think it is worth more than that, in fact.  The
biggest problem with what you propose, though, is that it would destroy
the social factors in development of the FreeBSD system that make it what
it is, and thus destroy FreeBSD itself, as far as I am concerned.
Eliminating the copyfree licensed, open source development model of
FreeBSD would undermine the majority of the technical benefits supported
by that development model.

I would have thought that even you should be able to understand that
without help.


> 
> There is nothing to prevent giving source with system. Non-Free
> software doesn't have to be binary only.

Read-only source, or even modifiable but non-distributable source, does
not provide the social benefits of an open source development model that
encourage the kind of participation FreeBSD needs to remain FreeBSD,
rather than becoming Oracle Solaris or MS Windows Server 2010: Race
Condition Odyssey.


> 
> For paying this i would like FreeBSD to be maintained with quality
> and performance being the only reason, not politics.

Turning it into a commercial enterprise rather than an open source
project would probably turn it into a project that is driven about 60% by
corporate politics and 40% by marketing BS, with no room left over for
quality except as needed to support the minimum credibility its CEO deems
necessary to support those two concerns.


> 
> Every "trendy" or otherwise requested feature could be added
> separately or even charged separately, as long as it doesn't have
> any effects on base system. ZFS being example.
> 
> Nothing against Juniper (the make truly good working hardware), but
> if they enforce decision because of their personal likes then it
> must be stopped.

You seem to think this is all about Juniper.  I wonder where you get that
idea.  Why didn't you pluck iXsystems out of thin air as your whipping
boy, or Yahoo, or some other corporate user?


> 
> GPLv3 based C compiler does not prevent making closed source
> software like JunOS for example.

In most cases, this may be true, *if* the license exceptions apply as
described if/when tested in court.  There are some cases where even the
optimistic explanation of the license exceptions particular to GCC
mentions that the GPLv3 might apply to generated code.


> 
> It is only "i hate GNU" type decision.

No, it's not only that.  It's *also* that, and with good reason.  Good
job ignoring a whole lot of information people have tried to bring to
your attention, including lengthy messages from me to which you have not
substantively responded.  Are you unable, or simply unwilling, to have an
honest discussion on the matter?   Ironically, your possibly dishonest
intention in this matter occurs even as you pretend that potentially
mistaken statements by one or two people make *everyone* into malevolent
liars who deserve your ire and insults.


> 
> I hate too, and in spite of this am against removing gcc and
> replacing it with much worse product.

"Worse" based on a couple of very narrowly applicable metrics derived
from specific, very particular use case conditions, whose measures are of
negligible scale for most purposes, ignoring a shit-ton of additional
information about why Clang is better based on information that you have
not only admitted not knowing about but proclaimed you have no interest
in learning.  You *refuse* to educate yourself about some of the subject
matter that pertains to other benefits, then proclaim everyone else at
fault for the fact you cannot see past your nose to note that the whole
world does not revolve around some dubious benchmarks.

I doubt you're convincing anyone of anything you seem to think we should
all accept as gospel.

-- 
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Re: Why Clang

[Chad Perrin]

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 10:40:11AM +0200, Michel Talon wrote:
> Le 21 juin 2012 à 03:52, kpn...@pobox.com a écrit :
> >
> > 
> > All of this may seem stupid to a reasonable person outside of law. I'll 
> > agree
> > that it probably does look stupid. But it is also the reality of the legal
> > systems we must live with today.
> 
> I can only praise kpneal for this very well argumented post. However
> some remarks.  The whole argument revolves around FUD, fear,
> uncertainty and doubt. But there will never be any shortage of lawyers
> trying to spread FUD on any subject to please their clients, and if
> companies "bend over" instead of fighting FUD they will promptly be
> paralyzed.

It was actually a fairly sober assessment of legal conditions, especially
in light of the rather unreasonable expenses often attendant to legal
battles.  In any case, it pays to play things safe when your options are:

* Take the idiots on, head-on, over their copyleft licensing zeal, and
  see if you get sued.

* Play it safe by using a compiler built on a better architecture that
  provides better development features, more correct output, and other
  advantages, with a copyfree license instead of a copyleft license.


>
> Last time a company tried to use such tactic against Linux, it did not
> turn out a bright idea. Second, FreeBSD is not a commercial company,
> and while this argument may have a merit for commercial sponsors of
> FreeBSD, it has zero bearing on FreeBSD itself.

I disagree with the assessment by others that FreeBSD is in some way
effectively a subsidiary of its corporate users, but it does have
corporate users, as well as non-corporate users.  Just as it must
reasonably see to the needs of the individuals who use it, so must it
also reasonably see to the needs of those corporate users, especially
when some of those corporate users' employees are key developers for the
base system (to the significant benefit of the rest of us).  Thus, saying
that a particular set of conditions having an impact on commercial
sponsors of FreeBSD has "zero bearing on FreeBSD itself" is just . . .
incorrect.


>
> If FreeBSD appears as a subsidiary of some commercial company (say
> Juniper) i am not sure this will be good for its further development.
> This being said, i agree with you that the FreeBSD binaries will not
> see a big performance degradation through the use of clang, so, as long
> as gcc is in the ports to be used with performance critical stuff, it
> is no big deal. Anyways as a long time FreeBSD user i have seen clang
> presented as an experiment by two or three people, and then suddenly
> stuffed without any discussion in the base system, apparently for
> political reasons that i don't share (i mean this stupid obsession of
> "GPL free" system, which has replaced the previous focus on quality and
> performance).

How much were you around in the mailing lists and other relevant venues
for discussion of changes to the base system?  You are presumably aware
this list doesn't really count, being a general-questions list that is
not exactly the official place to discuss things like base system choices
of library and userland development (for instance), or even ports system
development.  It's possible all you saw of the discussion was the parts
that "escaped into the wild", as it were; the more in-depth discussion of
the matter surely happened elsewhere.  This might give you a mistaken
impression that there was not much discussion of the matter.

. . . and thanks for calling the concerns of everyone who wants to be
able to use FreeBSD as the basis of other projects without having to deal
with problematic licensing restrictions as "stupid" and "obsessed".
That's not very nice (or accurate).

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]
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Re: Flaming mailing lists (was Re: Why Clang)

[Bernt Hansson]

2012-06-21 10:59, fred.mor...@gmail.com skrev:

we have feelings too!!!



Ouch! Another "feeling" person. Can't you just stop this feeling stuff.

/sarcasm off
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Re: Why Clang

[Bernt Hansson]

2012-06-21 19:33, Mark Felder skrev:

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 12:30:40 -0500, Wojciech Puchar
 wrote:


z>  wrote:



programs compiled by GPLv3 compiler are not encumbered.


This has not been decided in court yet.



sources please!


Google "GPLv3 court case". There are no applicable results. Until a
Judge decides what the license truly means everyone using it is at risk.

As you've already been told it's not English it's Law


"I fought the law, and the law won"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Fought_the_Law

This whole thread has gone wayward, and I don't think it's going 
anywhere, except down.

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something wrong of ifconfig bridge0 addr - mac address appears on wrong interface

[ProAce]

( untrust ) --- ( em0 , bridge0 , em1 ) --- ( trust )

Sometimes , I cannot connect to trust server from untrust.
I log some information from ifconfig bridge0 addr.
It seems some thing wrong of trust server's mac appear on em0.


trust serv1's mac: 00:50:56:af:2e:43
trust serv2's mac: 00:50:56:af:75:63


STEP1: The serv2 is not shown in bridge addr. table

   tp-fw [~] -root- ifconfig bridge0 addr
   00:50:56:af:2e:43 Vlan1 em1 1200 flags=0<>
   64:9e:f3:06:52:03 Vlan1 em0 1192 flags=0<>
   70:ca:9b:e3:a5:83 Vlan1 em0 1192 flags=0<>
   70:ca:9b:e3:a5:c3 Vlan1 em0 1200 flags=0<>

STEP2: I ping the serv2's ip from untrust , and I got 100% packet loss.

STEP3: show bridge addr. table again

   tp-fw [~] -root- ifconfig bridge0 addr
   00:50:56:af:75:63 Vlan1 em0 1198 flags=0<>
   00:50:56:af:2e:43 Vlan1 em1 1200 flags=0<>
   64:9e:f3:06:52:03 Vlan1 em0 1150 flags=0<>
   70:ca:9b:e3:a5:83 Vlan1 em0 1150 flags=0<>
   70:ca:9b:e3:a5:c3 Vlan1 em0 1200 flags=0<>

OMG! It's wrong of the 00:50:56:af:75:63 is shown with em0 interface.

STEP4: I ping the serv2's ip from tp-fw , and I got icmp reply.

STEP5: show bridge addr. table again

tp-fw [~] -root- ifconfig bridge0 addr
   00:50:56:af:75:63 Vlan1 em1 1197 flags=0<>
   00:50:56:af:2e:43 Vlan1 em1 1199 flags=0<>
   64:9e:f3:06:52:03 Vlan1 em0 1170 flags=0<>
   70:ca:9b:e3:a5:83 Vlan1 em0 1170 flags=0<>
   70:ca:9b:e3:a5:c3 Vlan1 em0 1200 flags=0<>

The 00:50:56:af:75:63 is shown with em1 interface correctly.

Why does STEP2 cause the wrong bridge addr table?
How to solve it?
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Re: xrandr cropping my window

[Warren Block]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012, David Tilbrook wrote:


Preamble:

% cvt 1600 1280
# 1600x1280 59.92 Hz (CVT 2.05M4) hsync: 79.51 kHz; pclk: 171.75 MHz
Modeline "1600x1280_60.00"  171.75  1600 1712 1880 2160  1280 1283
1290 1327 -hsync +vsync

Running the following:

xrandr --auto
xrandr --newmode "1600x1280_60.00"  171.75  1600 1712 1880 2160  1280
1283 1290 1327 -hsync +vsync
xrandr --addmode VGA1 "1600x1280_60.00"
xrandr --output VGA1 --mode "1600x1280_60.00"
yields:

Default gamma for IRGB image is  2.20
 Compressing colormap ...no improvment [sic]
 Clipping image...(Adding border)...done
 Building XImage...done

It does accomplish most of what I want, but indeed added a black border
at the top of the display.

The root window has geometry 1600x1280+0+0, however the area
that's visible on the display is approximately 1520x1200.

This means that when maximizing a window, the bottom and left edges
are not displayed.

Are there adjustments I can make to get my full screen?


Unless you have a very old or defective monitor, it will report the 
modes it can display.  xrandr should pick those up; run it without 
options to display known modes.  Select one of those existing modes 
rather than creating a new one that the monitor may not be able to 
display.

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xrandr cropping my window

[David Tilbrook]

Preamble:

% cvt 1600 1280
# 1600x1280 59.92 Hz (CVT 2.05M4) hsync: 79.51 kHz; pclk: 171.75 MHz
Modeline "1600x1280_60.00"  171.75  1600 1712 1880 2160  1280 1283
1290 1327 -hsync +vsync

Running the following:

xrandr --auto
xrandr --newmode "1600x1280_60.00"  171.75  1600 1712 1880 2160  1280
1283 1290 1327 -hsync +vsync
xrandr --addmode VGA1 "1600x1280_60.00"
xrandr --output VGA1 --mode "1600x1280_60.00"
 yields:

Default gamma for IRGB image is  2.20
  Compressing colormap ...no improvment [sic]
  Clipping image...(Adding border)...done
  Building XImage...done

It does accomplish most of what I want, but indeed added a black border
at the top of the display.

The root window has geometry 1600x1280+0+0, however the area
that's visible on the display is approximately 1520x1200.

This means that when maximizing a window, the bottom and left edges
are not displayed.

Are there adjustments I can make to get my full screen?

-- david
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Re: Why Clang

[Chad Perrin]

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 06:11:46AM -0400, Thomas Mueller wrote:
> Snippet from Antonio Olivares :
> >
> > I have some friends that develop software.  They had released it under
> > GNU umbrella.  Later on, other folks were taking advantage and not
> > giving back as the license requires.  There was little to no way to
> > enforce the license, he decided to  move to other license that
> > protects his work and let others use it was well with little to no
> > strings attached.  He know uses the CDDL which is also an Open Source
> > License.  He can give you many reasons as to why the GPLv3 is the
> > wrong way to go.  I can ask him for these and other reasons at your
> > request.
> 
> Yes, that would be a good idea, not so much for me as for others who
> want to better understand the licensing issues of GCC compared to
> Clang.
> 
> That would help explain why FreeBSD is switching to Clang.

Related (perhaps somewhat indirectly):

Advancement Through License Simplicity
http://univacc.net/?page=license_simplicity

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]
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Re: CLANG vs GCC tests of fortran/f2c program

[Chad Perrin]

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 05:50:24AM -0400, Thomas Mueller wrote:
> Snippet from Wojciech Puchar :
> >
> > I successfully predicted the fall of linux (in quality point of view)
> > years ago, then netbsd - after this and my prediction were good.
> >
> > Now i predict FreeBSD will fall within 2015 time frame.
> > What i mean fall - that it would be better to use older version as long as
> > possible because newer are worse.
> >
> > For now
> >
> > - FreeBSD 6 was an improvement
> > - FreeBSD 7 was an improvement, except first releases but that's normal
> > - FreeBSD 8 was a big improvement in performance and quality.
> >
> > FreeBSD 9 as for now:
> >
> > - have similar performance at most
> > - have some improvement and important functionality like TRIM support.
> > - have some useful functionality like softdep journalling, but risky.
> > Still - forcing full check reveals some inconsistencies now and then.
> >
> > FreeBSD 10 will unlikely be better, but for sure slower unless you will
> > force gcc build that MAYBE will work. possibly not.
> 
> 
> My experience with NetBSD suggests you may be right there, but Linux?
> 
> I'll have to build a new Linux installation and see for myself!
> 
> I'm still inclined to say FreeBSD 9.0 is an improvement over 8.2; I never got 
> to 8.3.

I can definitely vouch for his estimate of the quality of Linux-based
OSes, at least in the majority of cases.  I primarily used Debian for a
while, then went through a transitional period where I gradually phased
out Debian, until about half a dozen years was spent entirely Linux-free
(apart from the Linux kernel on a couple of embedded consumer devices),
during which time I used FreeBSD for everything.  Over the course of the
last -- well, more than a year, less than 1.5 years -- I have been
"forced" to use a Linux-based system again to get halfway decent graphics
support on a laptop I bought without checking hardware compatibility
carefully enough.

In the meantime, however, I have provided some support for other people
using Linux-based systems.  During that time, I had occasion to see a
Slackware installer hose an entire system (luckily with backups) that was
initially intended to be set up as a multi-boot with FreeBSD and MS
Windows; Ubuntu get cursed at great length with words like "If I wanted
to deal with this crap, I'd use Windows!"; and similar issues crop up.

Even so, installing Debian on my new laptop early last year (and trying
to install Arch Linux on it -- which didn't hose anything up, but did
fail to detect the free space on the hard drive, and thus failed to
install, before I decided it was easier to skip Arch) and using it since
then on a regular basis has been an eye-opener.  Myriad little
stupidities have crept into the system, including such wonders of
engineering brilliance as some documentation to the effect that basic
system network management tools were no longer guaranteed to work.

I have some pretty strong opinions about the way things are getting
broken in the Linux world, and some of the reasons this sort of problem
is growing, but they're increasingly off-topic for this venue.  Suffice
to say that I could write a short book about the subject, and still leave
a lot of problems unaddressed.

Anyway, switching from GCC to Clang has essentially nothing to do with
the kinds of problems we increasingly see in the Linux world.  In fact,
one of the biggest problems in the Linux world is the fact that GNU
projects have a tendency to degrade in quality over time and pretty
thoroughly undermine the Unix philosophy in egregious ways, which means
that the sooner we can divest ourselves of GNU tools (including GCC) the
better off we will probably be (though I would still advocate a measured
approach to replacing GNU tools, rather than a headlong rush without any
forethought).

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]
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Re: No surround sound with Creative SB Live! card

[David Demelier]

On 21/06/2012 05:55, Bernt Hansson wrote:

2012-06-18 20:27, David Demelier skrev:

On 15/06/2012 13:25, Bernt Hansson wrote:

On 2012-06-15 10:06, David Demelier wrote:

On 15/06/2012 05:43, Edward M wrote:

On 06/14/2012 09:03 AM, David Demelier wrote:

I have an old SB Live! card with a 5.1 speaker set, but i can't get
sound from center and rear speakers with mplayer.

I'm using the snd_emu10kx driver and when I try to play a DVD I get
sound only through the front speakers (and LFE) like a 2.1

Adding -channels 6 to the mplayer args does not help.

Cheers,


Sounds like the DVD surround audio is encoded in AC-3 Dolby Digital or
DTS. So a decorder is needed.



That's what mplayer says:

==



Opening audio decoder: [ffmpeg] FFmpeg/libavcodec audio decoders
AUDIO: 48000 Hz, 6 ch, s16le, 448.0 kbit/9.72% (ratio: 56000->576000)
Selected audio codec: [ffac3] afm: ffmpeg (FFmpeg AC-3)
==



AO: [oss] 48000Hz 6ch s16le (2 bytes per sample)

What do you mean by "a decoder is needed"?


Have you tried vlc or xine?


It does not work with VLC too, do you need to tweak some settings?


Try $ vlc filename

I've tried a file that gave this error

[0x2bb4b43c] main decoder error: no suitable decoder module for fourcc
`mp4v'. VLC probably does not support this sound or video format.


There is just this error:

[0x8373b4e70] xcb_xv generic error: no available XVideo adaptor

But this is due to my modern graphic card (radeon 5670)

--
David Demelier
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Re: FreeBSD 8.2 Add second hard drive multi-boot

[Polytropon]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 09:59:19 -0700 (PDT), leeoliveshackelf...@surewest.net 
wrote:
> Although the FreeBSD operating system seems to see the second
> hard drive, it does not mount it upon startup. 

FreeBSD won't mount anything until explicitely told so. Check
the output of dmesg (e. g. "dmesg | grep ^ad" or "dmesg | grep ^da")
for the drive designation and issue the command yourself. If
everything works, you can add an entry to /etc/fstab to make
it mount on startup, e. g.

# device target   type   options d   p
#    --      -   -   -
/dev/ad1s1   /xp/system   ntfs   ro,noauto   0   0
/dev/ad1s2   /xp/data ntfs   ro,noauto   0   0

It might be worth applying other options like -M (mask) to have
the missing attributes and "misinterpretation as executables"
of NTFS file systems corrects. See the manual for details.



> It does not appear in the fstab file. 

This file is not generated automatically. It's an entirely
"user serviceable" part of the OS.



> I attempted to mount it manually using the mount command, without
> success, just to see if any of the data files could be read. 

Can you show the mount command? I think it will be something
like

# mount_ntfs -o ro /dev/ad1s1 /mnt

If you need write access, ntfs3g / FUSE would be a good tool.
Also see the port "ntfsprogs" which contains useful tools for
dealing with NTFS.



> I ran fsidk -B on the zeroeth sector of the second hard drive, but
> that did not seem to help. 

You need to apply boot0cfg to install the initial boot blocks.





-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: Problem with routing in VmWare VMS

[Mark Felder]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 15:59:36 -0500, UNIX developer @ Google.com  
 wrote:



/etc/rc.conf
ifconfig_em0=" inet 192.168.1.10 netmask 255.255.255.0"
ifconfig_em1=" inet 192.168.2.1 netmask 255.255.255.0"
defaultrouter="192.168.1.1"
gateway_enable="YES"
static_routes="clnet"
route_clnet="-net 192.168.2.0/24 192.168.1.10"


You simply CANNOT do this. Traffic for 192.168.2.0/24 is bound to em1 and  
cannot be changed. You setup a static route that basically says "to find  
192.168.2.0/24, don't use em1 but instead ask 192.168.1.10 how to find it"?


This makes no sense at all.
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Problem with routing in VmWare VMS

[UNIX developer @ Google.com]

Hi!
I have problem with routing on FreeBSD.
I have ESXi 5 host. In there is 5 VMs and one of them is a BSD.
I need create router on BSD.
I try to setting up it with this manual:
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/network-routing.html
but problem is still the same...

I cant ping external network from local network.
# ping -S 192.168.2.1 192.168.1.4
... no replays ...
many packets sent and 100% loss. Ok ^C.

My configs:
/ets/sysctl.conf
net.inet.ip.forwarding=1

/etc/rc.conf
ifconfig_em0=" inet 192.168.1.10 netmask 255.255.255.0"
ifconfig_em1=" inet 192.168.2.1 netmask 255.255.255.0"
defaultrouter="192.168.1.1"
gateway_enable="YES"
static_routes="clnet"
route_clnet="-net 192.168.2.0/24 192.168.1.10"

after booting in netstat is:
# netstat -nr
Routing tables

Internet:
DestinationGatewayFlagsRefs  Use  Netif Expire
default192.168.1.1UGS 02em0
127.0.0.1  link#4 UH  00lo0
192.168.1.0/24 link#1 U   0  120em0
192.168.1.10   link#1 UHS 00lo0
192.168.2.0/24 link#2 U   00em1
192.168.2.1link#2 UHS 00lo0

after /etc/rc.d/routing restart, I see:
# netstat -nr
Routing tables

Internet:
DestinationGatewayFlagsRefs  Use  Netif Expire
default192.168.1.1UGS 02em0
127.0.0.1  link#4 UH  00lo0
192.168.1.0/24 link#1 U   0  120em0
192.168.1.10   link#1 UHS 00lo0
192.168.2.0/24 192.168.1.10   U   00em1
192.168.2.1link#2 UHS 00lo0

What  I  need  to  do  for  other  VMs from routed network cat get the
external network?

Please help me solve this problem.
If need more information, please write for me!
Thanks!

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Re: FreeBSD 8.2 Add second hard drive multi-boot

[Jerry McAllister]

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 09:59:19AM -0700, leeoliveshackelf...@surewest.net 
wrote:

You need to put the FreeBSD boot manager on both disks.
Use bootcfg.

jerry 

> Good morning, FreeBSD enthusiasts.  On my Hewlett-Packard xw4400 workstation, 
> I had one hard drive.  I partitioned it with two slices, the first one for 
> FreeBSD 8.2 with its native file system, and the second one for a future 
> re-installation of Windows XP, to be formatted with NTFS file system.  
> FreeBSD 8.2 was then installed.  The Windows XP re-installation has not yet 
> taken place.  Recently, I installed a second hard drive on the machine that 
> was already formatted with two slices, both NTFS.  Already installed on the 
> first of these slices is the Windows XP operating system with a special 
> application program.  Already installed on the second slice is data.  It is 
> my understanding that the FreeBSD loader is supposed to be able to load any 
> operating system.  Upon power-up, the FreeBSD loader presents the following 
> screen:  
> 
> F1 Win
> F2 FreeBSD
> F5 Drive 1
> F6 PXE
> 
> If I depress F1, I receive the response "BOOTMGR is missing.  Press 
> Ctrl+Alt+Del to restart."  If I depress F2, FreeBSD loads normally.  If I 
> depress F5, I receive the response "Missing operatin system."  How can I get 
> the FreeBSD loader to load the Windows XP operating system from the second 
> hard drive?  The G.P.T. disklabel is not used by either of these operating 
> systems, so I do not believe that that is the problem.  Although the FreeBSD 
> operating system seems to see the second hard drive, it does not mount it 
> upon startup.  It does not appear in the fstab file.  I attempted to mount it 
> manually using the mount command, without success, just to see if any of the 
> data files could be read.  I ran fsidk -B on the zeroeth sector of the second 
> hard drive, but that did not seem to help.  I know that this type of issue 
> comes up repeatedly in the mailing lists, some of which I have read, but I am 
> flummoxed.  Any and all suggestions would be appreciated.  Your truly, Lee 
> Shackelfo
>  r!
> d
> 
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RE: A bash scripting question

[dteske]

> -Original Message-
> From: owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-
> questi...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of dte...@freebsd.org
> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 12:57 PM
> To: 'Odhiambo Washington'
> Cc: 'questions'
> Subject: RE: A bash scripting question
> 
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-
> > questi...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Devin Teske
> > Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 9:24 AM
> > To: Odhiambo Washington
> > Cc: questions
> > Subject: Re: A bash scripting question
> >
> >
> > On Jun 21, 2012, at 6:40 AM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
> >
> > > How Can I simplify/perfect the following script, so that I read _ALL_ the
> > > lines in the file and act on the content as shown below, so that I do not
> > > have to specifiy an action per line?
> > >
> > > This below is doing exactly what i need BUT reading one line at a time
> > > untill the 10th line, if i want more i add manually...
> > > This might help some1 someday! But if there is a way to perfect it please
> > > do so.
> > >
> > > #!/usr/local/bin/bash
> > >
> > > smsfile=email_to_sms
> > > `grep Subject /var/spool/mail/sms >>$smsfile`
> > > if [[ -s $smsfile ]] ; then
> > > cat /dev/null > /var/spool/mail/sms
> > > sed -i 's/Subject: //g' $smsfile
> > > echo `sed -n '1p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==1
> > > {print $1}' $smsfile`
> > > echo `sed -n '2p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==2
> > > {print $1}' $smsfile`
> > > echo `sed -n '3p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==3
> > > {print $1}' $smsfile`
> > > echo `sed -n '4p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==4
> > > {print $1}' $smsfile`
> > > echo `sed -n '5p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==5
> > > {print $1}' $smsfile`
> > > echo `sed -n '6p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==6
> > > {print $1}' $smsfile`
> > > echo `sed -n '7p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==7
> > > {print $1}' $smsfile`
> > > echo `sed -n '8p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==8
> > > {print $1}' $smsfile`
> > > echo `sed -n '9p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==9
> > > {print $1}' $smsfile`
> > > echo `sed -n '10p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==10
> > > {print $1}' $smsfile`
> > > else
> > > echo "***Sorry the SMS FILE "$smsfile" is empty."
> > > fi
> > > gammu-smsd start
> > > cat email_to_sms >> email_to_sms2
> > > cat /dev/null > email_to_sms
> > >
> >
> > Try the following.
> >
> > #!/bin/sh
> > smsfile=email_to_sms
> > spoolfile=/var/spol/mail/sms
> > grep Subject "$spoolfile" >> "$smsfile"
> > if [ -s "$smsfile" ]; then
> > : > "$spoolfile"
> > sed -e 's/Subject: //g' "$smsfile" | awk '
> > {
> > if (NR > 10) exit
> > print | "/usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT " $1
> > }'
> > else
> > echo "***Sorry the SMS FILE "$smsfile" is
> > empty."
> > fi
> > gammu-smsd start
> > cat "$smsfile" >> email_to_sms2
> > : > "$smsfile"
> >
> 
> I can beat my original response (above), while retaining original
> functionality...
> 
> #!/bin/sh
> spoolfile=/var/spool/mail/sms
> awk -v pat="^Subject: " '
> $0 ~ pat {
> sub(pat,"")
> print | "/usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT " $1
> }' "$spoolfile"
> 

Actually, some functionality was lost in the above translation, let me add the
missing functionality back-in...

#!/bin/sh
spoolfile=/var/spool/mail/sms
awk -v pat="^Subject: " '
BEGIN { found = 0 }
$0 ~ pat {
found++
sub(pat, "")
print | "/usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT " $1
}
END {
if ( ! found )
printf "%sSorry the SMS FILE \"%s\" is empty.%s\n",
   "***", FILENAME, "***"
exit ! found
}' "$spoolfile" && : > "$spoolfile"


> Or, as a shell "One-Liner" (compatible with any shell and any awk)...

The above doesn't translate so-well into a one-liner (unless you can stomach
really long lines >80 chars), but here it is...

awk -v pat="^Subject: " 'BEGIN{found=0}$0~pat{found++;sub(pat,
"");print|"/usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT "$1}END{if(!found)printf "%sSorry the
SMS FILE \"%s\" is empty.%s\n","***",FILENAME,"***";exit
!found}' /var/spool/mail/sms && :> /var/spool/mail/sms
-- 
Devin

P.S. I think the above is the best you can do.

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RE: A bash scripting question

[dteske]

> -Original Message-
> From: owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-
> questi...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Devin Teske
> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 9:24 AM
> To: Odhiambo Washington
> Cc: questions
> Subject: Re: A bash scripting question
> 
> 
> On Jun 21, 2012, at 6:40 AM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
> 
> > How Can I simplify/perfect the following script, so that I read _ALL_ the
> > lines in the file and act on the content as shown below, so that I do not
> > have to specifiy an action per line?
> >
> > This below is doing exactly what i need BUT reading one line at a time
> > untill the 10th line, if i want more i add manually...
> > This might help some1 someday! But if there is a way to perfect it please
> > do so.
> >
> > #!/usr/local/bin/bash
> >
> > smsfile=email_to_sms
> > `grep Subject /var/spool/mail/sms >>$smsfile`
> > if [[ -s $smsfile ]] ; then
> > cat /dev/null > /var/spool/mail/sms
> > sed -i 's/Subject: //g' $smsfile
> > echo `sed -n '1p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==1
> > {print $1}' $smsfile`
> > echo `sed -n '2p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==2
> > {print $1}' $smsfile`
> > echo `sed -n '3p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==3
> > {print $1}' $smsfile`
> > echo `sed -n '4p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==4
> > {print $1}' $smsfile`
> > echo `sed -n '5p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==5
> > {print $1}' $smsfile`
> > echo `sed -n '6p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==6
> > {print $1}' $smsfile`
> > echo `sed -n '7p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==7
> > {print $1}' $smsfile`
> > echo `sed -n '8p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==8
> > {print $1}' $smsfile`
> > echo `sed -n '9p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==9
> > {print $1}' $smsfile`
> > echo `sed -n '10p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==10
> > {print $1}' $smsfile`
> > else
> > echo "***Sorry the SMS FILE "$smsfile" is empty."
> > fi
> > gammu-smsd start
> > cat email_to_sms >> email_to_sms2
> > cat /dev/null > email_to_sms
> >
> 
> Try the following.
> 
> #!/bin/sh
> smsfile=email_to_sms
> spoolfile=/var/spol/mail/sms
> grep Subject "$spoolfile" >> "$smsfile"
> if [ -s "$smsfile" ]; then
>   : > "$spoolfile"
>   sed -e 's/Subject: //g' "$smsfile" | awk '
>   {
>   if (NR > 10) exit
>   print | "/usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT " $1
>   }'
> else
>   echo "***Sorry the SMS FILE "$smsfile" is
> empty."
> fi
> gammu-smsd start
> cat "$smsfile" >> email_to_sms2
> : > "$smsfile"
> 

I can beat my original response (above), while retaining original
functionality...

#!/bin/sh
spoolfile=/var/spool/mail/sms
awk -v pat="^Subject: " '
$0 ~ pat {
sub(pat,"")
print | "/usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT " $1
}' "$spoolfile"

Or, as a shell "One-Liner" (compatible with any shell and any awk)...

awk -v pat="^Subject: " '$0~pat{sub(pat,"");print|"/usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT
"$1}' "$spoolfile"
-- 
Devin


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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Marco Antonio Muskus Muskus]

ZFS is technologically more advance than UFS/UFS2, so, if someone ask to me 
which filesystem should be use, my answer is ZFS.

You can do on UFS the same on ZFS, but ZFS extend the functionality beyond 
"filesystem", that is a plus for IT today.

I'm using ZFS for a public HTTP/FTP mirror pushing many TB/Month and a backup 
system.

Regards,



El 21/06/12 12:32, Wojciech Puchar escribió:

Agreed.  Wojciech Puchar is in my 'probable troll' file at this point,



Here too,  http://berklix.com/~jhs/dots/.procmailrc.lists



very good. just block me, instead of performing aggresive replies and
personal attacks.


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--
MARCO ANTONIO MUSKUS MUSKUS
NOC - Aplicaciones ISP
EDATEL S.A. E.S.P.
Calle 41 # 52 - 28 Piso 2
Medellín, Antioquia - Colombia
Teléfono: (574) 384 6507 Fax: (574) 3846500
www.edatel.net.co
mamus...@edatel.com.co


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comunicamos que cualquier retención, revisión no autorizada, distribución, 
divulgación, reenvío, copia, impresión, reproducción, o uso indebido de este 
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Re: Why Clang

[Chad Perrin]

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:25:22AM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote:
> >You're being paid to write a program for a customer. You
> 
> i don't talk that case, but if i am hired to write some part of
> program as an employer in software company.

There are basically four circumstances that might apply here, as far as
I'm aware:

1. Your work is considered "work for hire", where you are just a cog in
the corporate machine and the corporation is the "creator" or "author" of
record (and thus the default copyright holder).  This means you would
have to get permission ("license") to use the work outside of your
function as an employee.

2. Your work can be used by the employer under exclusive license, which
means you cannot use the work yourself except under strictly limited
conditions specified in law.

3. Your work can be transfered to the employer, so that though you are
the default copyright holder an agreement (possibly an employment
agreement, but generally requiring a distinct agreement separate from the
employment agreement itself for this case) establishes the legal transfer
of copyright from you to the employer.

4. Your work is provided to the employer under a non-exclusive license,
which means you can then license it to others as well.

By far the most common case for a standard employment relationship is
case 1.

Pathological edge-cases may adjust these circumstances.  My assumptions
in writing this are based on my experience with US copyright law.  I am
not a lawyer, and this does not constitute legal advice, but only an
explanation of my understanding and perspective with regard to copyright
law.


> >
> >BUT - as everyone is free to obtain, modify and re-issue GPL
> >source code, I'm not sure such a consensus could be reached.
>
> by creating a BSD licenced fork - constructed from parts written by
> all developers that - as you said - have personal right to their
> code.

This is pretty much exactly what happened with the Pentadactyl extension
for Firefox.  The people who had been doing the majority of development
work for the Vimperator extension for a while, but were not the project
"owner", took the code they had created and rewrote (from scratch) any
additional code needed to make it work, creating the Pentadactyl project.
The original Vimperator project used a copyleft license (the GPL), and
the new Pentadactyl project used a copyfree license (I don't recall
which, probably either the Simplified BSD License or the MIT/X11
License).

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]
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Re: A bash scripting question

[Julian H. Stacey]

CyberLeo Kitsana wrote Odhiambo Washington:

> By the way, what's gammu, 

/usr/ports/comms/gammu presumably
( for mobile phone connection )

> and why is it in /usr/bin ?

Pass.

Cheers,
Julian
-- 
Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich http://berklix.com
 Reply below not above, cumulative like a play script, & indent with "> ".
 Format: Plain text. Not HTML, multipart/alternative, base64, quoted-printable.
Mail from @yahoo dumped @berklix.  http://berklix.org/yahoo/
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Re: Why Clang

[Polytropon]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 12:33:40 -0500, Mark Felder wrote:
> Google "GPLv3 court case". There are no applicable results. Until a Judge  
> decides what the license truly means everyone using it is at risk.
> 
> As you've already been told it's not English it's Law

I assume that there's not just one case neccessary (to be carried
out to the end): What about countries with different jurisdiction?
For example, Germany doesn't have "precedence law" as it is very
famous in the USA. Given basically the same situations, two judges
can decide differently. Cases only have effect on the parties who
fight there - except very few cases where decisions "get promoted
to level of law", it doesn't mean anything to others.

And that's just within Germany. How about different countries?
Does a case (e. g. M. S. Bob vs. R. M. Stallman) have any effect
outside the USA?

I am not a lawyer, but because I have some legal knowledge I
know for sure that "what's written in the law" and "how law
is practiced in reality" does very much differ, in unpredictable
and volatile. So I don't make any claims here.


-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: New to FreeBSD - Some questions

[Polytropon]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 19:14:54 +0200 (CEST), Wojciech Puchar wrote:
> > the experimental development branch -HEAD, it _might_ happen that
> > the system doesn't even compile, but updated 30 minutes after
> > that "accident", it runs fine again. :-)
> >
> And finally unless doing tests or using private not-really-important 
> computer, don't just install newest FreeBSD because it's out.
> 
> I - and lot of others - still use 8.* for production while 9.* is out 
> already for some time.

For home desktops, usually -STABLE is a good solution. Server
maintainers tend to use -RELEASE-pX (which also makes binary
updates easier).



> >> q) I would assume UFS with J+SU is "fast enough" for a laptop?
> >
> > I think so. For a laptop, you _might_ consider adding encryption.
> > Just in case. You never know.
> 
> for a server - you MUST do this :)

It's worth mentioning that it's not good practice to have a
keyfile-based decryption which is "unlocked" by a USB stick
permanently sticking in the server. Security is nearly zero
in such a constellation. Passphrase-based decryption is good
as long as you have physical access to the server and only
you (and maybe those you trust) have a secure (!!!) password
which needs to be entered manually at system startup to "unlock"
the /home drive or partition.



> >> q) The second laptop has an SSD, would UFS with/without J and
> >> with/without SU or ZFS make more sense for it?
> >
> > There are several parameters that you can tweak (see "man tunefs"),
> > I would suggest a single partition spanning the whole SSD, and
> > journaling would not be contraproductive.
> 
> s/would not/would/
> i assume this as mistake. do not journal on SSD. it increases amount of 
> writes, and fsck is quick anyway.

Good you spotted it - of course there is no need for journaling in
this case (too much writes, no real benefit).





-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: A bash scripting question

[CyberLeo Kitsana]

On 06/21/2012 08:40 AM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
> How Can I simplify/perfect the following script, so that I read _ALL_ the
> lines in the file and act on the content as shown below, so that I do not
> have to specifiy an action per line?
> 
> This below is doing exactly what i need BUT reading one line at a time
> untill the 10th line, if i want more i add manually...
> This might help some1 someday! But if there is a way to perfect it please
> do so.
> 
> #!/usr/local/bin/bash
> 
> smsfile=email_to_sms
> `grep Subject /var/spool/mail/sms >>$smsfile`
> if [[ -s $smsfile ]] ; then
> cat /dev/null > /var/spool/mail/sms
> sed -i 's/Subject: //g' $smsfile
> echo `sed -n '1p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==1
> {print $1}' $smsfile`
> echo `sed -n '2p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==2
> {print $1}' $smsfile`
> echo `sed -n '3p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==3
> {print $1}' $smsfile`
> echo `sed -n '4p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==4
> {print $1}' $smsfile`
> echo `sed -n '5p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==5
> {print $1}' $smsfile`
> echo `sed -n '6p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==6
> {print $1}' $smsfile`
> echo `sed -n '7p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==7
> {print $1}' $smsfile`
> echo `sed -n '8p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==8
> {print $1}' $smsfile`
> echo `sed -n '9p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==9
> {print $1}' $smsfile`
> echo `sed -n '10p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==10
> {print $1}' $smsfile`
> else
> echo "***Sorry the SMS FILE "$smsfile" is empty."
> fi
> gammu-smsd start
> cat email_to_sms >> email_to_sms2
> cat /dev/null > email_to_sms

Off the top of my head:

8<
#!/bin/sh -e

sed -e '/^Subject: /!d; s/^Subject: //' /var/spool/mail/sms > "${smsfile}"

:>/var/spool/mail/sms

xargs -L1 /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT < "${smsfile}"

mv -f "${smsfile}" "${smsfile}.bak"
8<

No loops necessary.

By the way, what's gammu, and why is it in /usr/bin ?

-- 
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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Roger B.A. Klorese]

On 6/21/12 11:21 AM, Wojciech Puchar wrote:


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Only after you, my man, only after you.


not yours. i'm not homosexual


For which the gay community is grateful.
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Re: Why Clang

[Roger B.A. Klorese]

On 6/21/12 10:30 AM, Wojciech Puchar wrote:

z>  wrote:



programs compiled by GPLv3 compiler are not encumbered.


This has not been decided in court yet.



sources please!



Logical fallacy -- looking for a non-existence proof.
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Re: Why Clang

[Waitman Gobble]

On Jun 21, 2012 11:23 AM, "Wojciech Puchar" 
wrote:
>>>
>>>
>> Additionally, the exceptions for using the GCC runtime library for
non-GPL executables
>> is limited to what hey call "eligible compilation processes", what rules
out using
>> proprietary GCC plugins or other combinations of core GCC functionality
with non-GPL
>> tooling and extensions.
>> Please note that this is indeed not tested in court. Therefore, reality
may turn out
>> even more interesting. That's why a lawyer's answer should always be "it
depends". :)
>
>
> GNU GPL is even worse that i ever dreamed (in worst horror).
>
>
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I have seen a few instances which are "risky" IMHO... or at least
interesting to ponder.. one is a claim that GPLv3 enables the vendor to
"require" the use of their trademark logo (flowplayer)... which opens up
other legal issues i think, and another, i recently purchased a router, in
the package was a small piece of paper stating the device includes GPL
software, and if i want the source i need to write (snail mail) their legal
department and explain why i want it. (d-link).

but i agree the issues have not been legally decided AFAIK. anyway, i think
a BSD licensed FreeBSD operating system works  for me.

Waitman Gobble
San Jose California USA
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Re: Why Clang

[Wojciech Puchar]

So, has anyone compared the performance of clang vs gcc compiled in daily use--
for example as a server? Anyone can cherry pick a couple of binaries, but how
important is this for the performance of FreeBSD world?


not big, as with almost any compiler. Most workload are dominated by cache 
misses and jump misprediction.


That's why my gzip comparision resulted in minimally worse clang-compiled 
one (1% or less), while f2c converted fortran code for scientific 
calculations showed large differences.


i expect large difference in eg. cjpeg, lame etc and rather small in for 
eg. perl

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Re: Why Clang

[Joe Gain]

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 7:45 PM, Stas Verberkt  wrote:
> Mark Felder schreef op 21-06-2012 19:28:
>
>> On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 12:16:31 -0500, Wojciech Puchar
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> programs compiled by GPLv3 compiler are not encumbered.
>>
>>
>> This has not been decided in court yet.
>>
> Additionally, the exceptions for using the GCC runtime library for non-GPL
> executables
> is limited to what hey call "eligible compilation processes", what rules out
> using
> proprietary GCC plugins or other combinations of core GCC functionality with
> non-GPL
> tooling and extensions.
> Please note that this is indeed not tested in court. Therefore, reality may
> turn out
> even more interesting. That's why a lawyer's answer should always be "it
> depends". :)
>
>
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So, has anyone compared the performance of clang vs gcc compiled in daily use--
for example as a server? Anyone can cherry pick a couple of binaries, but how
important is this for the performance of FreeBSD world?

-- 
joe gain

jacob-burckhardt-str. 16
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germany

+49 (0)7531 60389

(...otherwise in ???)
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Re: Why Clang

[Wojciech Puchar]

Additionally, the exceptions for using the GCC runtime library for non-GPL 
executables
is limited to what hey call "eligible compilation processes", what rules out 
using
proprietary GCC plugins or other combinations of core GCC functionality with 
non-GPL

tooling and extensions.
Please note that this is indeed not tested in court. Therefore, reality may 
turn out
even more interesting. That's why a lawyer's answer should always be "it 
depends". :)


GNU GPL is even worse that i ever dreamed (in worst horror).

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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Wojciech Puchar]

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Only after you, my man, only after you.


not yours. i'm not homosexual
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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Евгений Лактанов]

21.06.2012 21:32, Wojciech Puchar пишет:
>>> Agreed.  Wojciech Puchar is in my 'probable troll' file at this point,
>>
>> Here too,  http://berklix.com/~jhs/dots/.procmailrc.lists
>>
> very good. just block me, instead of performing aggresive replies and
> personal attacks.
>
>
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Only after you, my man, only after you.
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Re: Why Clang

[Stas Verberkt]

Mark Felder schreef op 21-06-2012 19:28:

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 12:16:31 -0500, Wojciech Puchar
 wrote:


programs compiled by GPLv3 compiler are not encumbered.


This has not been decided in court yet.

Additionally, the exceptions for using the GCC runtime library for 
non-GPL executables
is limited to what hey call "eligible compilation processes", what 
rules out using
proprietary GCC plugins or other combinations of core GCC functionality 
with non-GPL

tooling and extensions.
Please note that this is indeed not tested in court. Therefore, reality 
may turn out
even more interesting. That's why a lawyer's answer should always be 
"it depends". :)


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Re: Why Clang

[Roger B.A. Klorese]

On 6/21/12 10:36 AM, Wojciech Puchar wrote:


sources please!


Google "GPLv3 court case". There are no applicable results. Until a 
Judge decides what the license truly means everyone using it is at risk.


true.

But why anyone from FreeBSD fundation didn't just write official 
letter to GNU "Free" Software Foundation asking for just that case?


Because what FSF says is irrelevant. What courts decide is all that counts.
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Re: Why Clang

[Robison, Dave]

On 06/21/2012 10:30, Wojciech Puchar wrote:
>> Because there's no reason to do that. It's an asinine suggestion.
>>
>> Clang is here to stay. Most of us are happy about that decision. GCC
>
> Because most that are not already stopped and ignored thing. and use GCC.
>
> Politics won.
>

Excellent. We have a winner.

Now you can stop commenting.


-- 
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Sales Solution Architect II
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Re: Why Clang

[Mark Felder]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 12:36:03 -0500, Wojciech Puchar  
 wrote:




But why anyone from FreeBSD fundation didn't just write official letter  
to GNU "Free" Software Foundation asking for just that case?


There needs to be a lawsuit and lawyers and judges need to be involved.  
You can't just ask the FSF to "explain" themselves.

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Re: Why Clang

[Wojciech Puchar]

sources please!


Google "GPLv3 court case". There are no applicable results. Until a Judge 
decides what the license truly means everyone using it is at risk.


true.

But why anyone from FreeBSD fundation didn't just write official letter 
to GNU "Free" Software Foundation asking for just that case?


Nothing to loose, lots to gain.
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Re: Why Clang

[Mark Felder]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 12:30:40 -0500, Wojciech Puchar  
 wrote:



z>  wrote:



programs compiled by GPLv3 compiler are not encumbered.


This has not been decided in court yet.



sources please!


Google "GPLv3 court case". There are no applicable results. Until a Judge  
decides what the license truly means everyone using it is at risk.


As you've already been told it's not English it's Law
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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Wojciech Puchar]

Agreed.  Wojciech Puchar is in my 'probable troll' file at this point,


Here too,  http://berklix.com/~jhs/dots/.procmailrc.lists

very good. just block me, instead of performing aggresive replies and 
personal attacks.



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Re: Why Clang

[Wojciech Puchar]

z>  wrote:



programs compiled by GPLv3 compiler are not encumbered.


This has not been decided in court yet.



sources please!
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Re: New to FreeBSD - Some questions

[Erich Dollansky]

Hi,

On Thursday 21 June 2012 23:55:38 Polytropon wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 13:24:26 +0200, Fred Morcos wrote:
> > On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 9:58 PM, Wojciech Puchar

> > q) Is it possible to get native resolution on the console? I played
> > with vesa and vidcontrol but could never get what I wanted. Native
> > resolution would require KMS?
> 
> As far as I know, KMS (kernel mode settings) is specific to Linux.

past tense, please.

> FreeBSD has several VESA modes bigger than 80x25. But I have to
> admit that I don't see a problem in using this default mode during
> initialization time. Later on, xterms (also those containing SSH
> and screen sessions) can be configured any size under X.

Not really. I never found out why PCBSD could use my 1366x768 screen under 
VESA but FreeBSD couldn't. The new KMS does it all.
> 
Erich
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Re: Why Clang

[Wojciech Puchar]

Because there's no reason to do that. It's an asinine suggestion.

Clang is here to stay. Most of us are happy about that decision. GCC


Because most that are not already stopped and ignored thing. and use GCC.

Politics won.
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Re: Why Clang

[Wojciech Puchar]

they are not.
programs compiled by GPLv3 compiler are not encumbered.



Programs that link to GPLv3 libraries are encumbered.

you mean libgcc_s.so.1 and libstdc++?

scanned /bin and /usr/bin and few programs do link it - all are C++ 
written.


None IMHO are needed in closed-source system really,

anyway (i don't have clang installed now) what clang compiled C++ programs 
use as libstdc++ ?


do clang provide it?

cannot you just use this (or other) nonGPL library?

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Re: Why Clang

[Mark Felder]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 12:16:31 -0500, Wojciech Puchar  
 wrote:



programs compiled by GPLv3 compiler are not encumbered.


This has not been decided in court yet.
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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Julian H. Stacey]

> Agreed.  Wojciech Puchar is in my 'probable troll' file at this point, 

Here too,  http://berklix.com/~jhs/dots/.procmailrc.lists

Cheers,
Julian
-- 
Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich http://berklix.com
 Reply below not above, cumulative like a play script, & indent with "> ".
 Format: Plain text. Not HTML, multipart/alternative, base64, quoted-printable.
Mail from @yahoo dumped @berklix.  http://berklix.org/yahoo/
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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Robison, Dave]

On 06/21/2012 00:33, Hooman Fazaeli wrote:
> Dear community
>
> In the past, I built a 8TB ZFS log server on freebsd 7.4.
> However, the system  experienced instablility after long up times.
> My main motive to use ZFS was UFS inability to support large
> file systems.
>
> Now, I want to the same thing on 8.3 and wanted to know
> your opinion on ZFS stability. Is there any success story using
> ZFS in 24x7, large volume, heavy duty servers? Is there any
> other option other than ZFS to build larger than 2TB file systems?
>

We use ZFS for critical data and are quite happy with it. I've been
using it in production since 8.1-R and have yet to have a problem.
Make sure you do your zpool scrubs regularly. I use a cron job.

We are currently migrating our customer RAID arrays to ZFS to
ameliorate the multi-hour FSCK situations.




-- 
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Sales Solution Architect II
FIS Banking Solutions
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Re: Why Clang

[Robison, Dave]

On 06/21/2012 10:08, Wojciech Puchar wrote:
>>
>> You seem to be unaware of what percentage of the development and
>> maintenance staff and the money to pay for them comes from those
>> commercial users. If FreeBSD cannot maintain the critical mass to
>> continue, it will not continue.
>
> but why it isn't clearly stated:
>
> "We put clang because sponsors wanted it."
>


Because there's no reason to do that. It's an asinine suggestion.

Clang is here to stay. Most of us are happy about that decision. GCC
will still be in the ports tree for those of you who prefer to run it.

Your questions have been answered repeatedly, ad nauseam, but apparently
you don't like and won't accept the answers so you ask the questions
again and again. You don't like Clang. You prefer GCC. We get it.


-- 
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Re: Why Clang

[Roger B.A. Klorese]

On 6/21/12 10:16 AM, Wojciech Puchar wrote:


"We put clang because sponsors wanted it."




Sponsors didn't want clang. Sponsors wanted not to be encumbered by a 
GPLv3 

they are not.
programs compiled by GPLv3 compiler are not encumbered.



Programs that link to GPLv3 libraries are encumbered.
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Re: Why Clang

[Wojciech Puchar]

"We put clang because sponsors wanted it."




Sponsors didn't want clang. Sponsors wanted not to be encumbered by a GPLv3 

they are not.
programs compiled by GPLv3 compiler are not encumbered.

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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Wojciech Puchar]

ZFS is superior to UFS. End of the history.

There is no point in use old technology (UFS) when the new one can make the 
same as the older and better ?
anyway there must be morons here like me that after observation conclude 
that older is far safer and better.


But if you want "end of history" then fine.
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Re: New to FreeBSD - Some questions

[Wojciech Puchar]

the experimental development branch -HEAD, it _might_ happen that
the system doesn't even compile, but updated 30 minutes after
that "accident", it runs fine again. :-)

And finally unless doing tests or using private not-really-important 
computer, don't just install newest FreeBSD because it's out.


I - and lot of others - still use 8.* for production while 9.* is out 
already for some time.


Anyway i think that "bleeding edge" -HEAD release is still more stable 
than "stable" linux kernel.



q) I would assume UFS with J+SU is "fast enough" for a laptop?


I think so. For a laptop, you _might_ consider adding encryption.
Just in case. You never know.


for a server - you MUST do this :)


q) The second laptop has an SSD, would UFS with/without J and
with/without SU or ZFS make more sense for it?


There are several parameters that you can tweak (see "man tunefs"),
I would suggest a single partition spanning the whole SSD, and
journaling would not be contraproductive.


s/would not/would/
i assume this as mistake. do not journal on SSD. it increases amount of 
writes, and fsck is quick anyway.


do not forget of -t option with newfs (TRIM enable)

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Re: Why Clang

[Roger B.A. Klorese]

On 6/21/12 10:08 AM, Wojciech Puchar wrote:
Second, FreeBSD is not a commercial company, and while this argument 
may have a merit
for commercial sponsors of FreeBSD, it has zero bearing on FreeBSD 
itself.


You seem to be unaware of what percentage of the development and 
maintenance staff and the money to pay for them comes from those 
commercial users. If FreeBSD cannot maintain the critical mass to 
continue, it will not continue.


but why it isn't clearly stated:

"We put clang because sponsors wanted it."




Sponsors didn't want clang. Sponsors wanted not to be encumbered by a 
GPLv3 license. If there was a "shmoodlepoodle" compiler instead of 
"clang" that met this requirement instead and was at least as performant 
and stable, it would likely have been selected.  If you don't like clang 
as an option, go away and come back when you've built a better compiler 
and offered it under an acceptable license.

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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Roger B.A. Klorese]

On 6/21/12 9:47 AM, Wojciech Puchar wrote:


True but this applies as much to you. You think you know it all and 
that is quite the probdlem with you.
And  "discussing" with you is a true waste with this attittute. Even 
its free.



so stop it.


This mailing list isn't your blog. If you want to hear your own voice, 
go lock yourself in a room. We'll all be happier.

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NIC problem

[Arlen McIntyre]

  I have an Intel Wifi Link 1000 BGN NIC that
I'm having trouble getting to work. I have
FreeBSD 8.3 installed. I looked in the NOTES file under
/usr/src/sys/conf
for the driver and did not see it listed. It is PCI.

   I have tried to configure the settings
via the sysinstall command post configuration.
I read about Project Evil and other options.
I wanted to see if someone could help me
out...


thanks
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Re: Why Clang

[Wojciech Puchar]

Second, FreeBSD is not a commercial company, and while this argument may 
have a merit

for commercial sponsors of FreeBSD, it has zero bearing on FreeBSD itself.


You seem to be unaware of what percentage of the development and maintenance 
staff and the money to pay for them comes from those commercial users. If 
FreeBSD cannot maintain the critical mass to continue, it will not continue.


but why it isn't clearly stated:

"We put clang because sponsors wanted it."

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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Marco Antonio Muskus Muskus]

ZFS is superior to UFS. End of the history.

There is no point in use old technology (UFS) when the new one can make the 
same as the older and better ?

Regards,



El 21/06/12 11:31, Matthias Gamsjager escribió:



On 21 jun. 2012, at 18:07, Wojciech Puchar 
 wrote:



stupid answer to stupid question.
You never seen - but they do happens.



In other topic you hammerd on  fact and if someone ask you to deliver them its 
a stupid question.


just a proof it is a waste of time to explain things (FOR FREE) for people like 
you.

You are free to make dangerous setups. People are free to hire you and believe 
at things what you do. People are free to then pay consequences of the results 
at unexpected time, as well as 10 times oversized hardware for a need.

At least this is still free :)



True but this applies as much to you. You think you know it all and that is 
quite the probdlem with you.
And  "discussing" with you is a true waste with this attittute. Even its free. 
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FreeBSD 8.2 Add second hard drive multi-boot

[leeoliveshackelford]

Good morning, FreeBSD enthusiasts.  On my Hewlett-Packard xw4400 workstation, I 
had one hard drive.  I partitioned it with two slices, the first one for 
FreeBSD 8.2 with its native file system, and the second one for a future 
re-installation of Windows XP, to be formatted with NTFS file system.  FreeBSD 
8.2 was then installed.  The Windows XP re-installation has not yet taken 
place.  Recently, I installed a second hard drive on the machine that was 
already formatted with two slices, both NTFS.  Already installed on the first 
of these slices is the Windows XP operating system with a special application 
program.  Already installed on the second slice is data.  It is my 
understanding that the FreeBSD loader is supposed to be able to load any 
operating system.  Upon power-up, the FreeBSD loader presents the following 
screen:  

F1 Win
F2 FreeBSD
F5 Drive 1
F6 PXE

If I depress F1, I receive the response "BOOTMGR is missing.  Press 
Ctrl+Alt+Del to restart."  If I depress F2, FreeBSD loads normally.  If I 
depress F5, I receive the response "Missing operatin system."  How can I get 
the FreeBSD loader to load the Windows XP operating system from the second hard 
drive?  The G.P.T. disklabel is not used by either of these operating systems, 
so I do not believe that that is the problem.  Although the FreeBSD operating 
system seems to see the second hard drive, it does not mount it upon startup.  
It does not appear in the fstab file.  I attempted to mount it manually using 
the mount command, without success, just to see if any of the data files could 
be read.  I ran fsidk -B on the zeroeth sector of the second hard drive, but 
that did not seem to help.  I know that this type of issue comes up repeatedly 
in the mailing lists, some of which I have read, but I am flummoxed.  Any and 
all suggestions would be appreciated.  Your truly, Lee Shackelfo
 r!
d

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Re: New to FreeBSD - Some questions

[Polytropon]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 13:24:26 +0200, Fred Morcos wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 9:58 PM, Wojciech Puchar
>  wrote:
> >> I'm quite new to FreeBSD too (RHEL/Fedora background), and am most
> >> impressed with it so far.
> >
> >
> > rather huge difference.

If you use the "right" Linusi, you can gain lots of useful
knowledge. Basics are important, and older versions of Linux
can really teach them. Of course a "click'n'grunt" environment
won't teach you much.



> >> Secondly (and probably stating the obvious), the handbook
> >>
> >> 
> >>
> >> is the place I always look first.
> >
> > and third - manuals. They are in sync with system and actually VERY useful.
> >
> > while i was still (long time ago) using linux most common manual was like
> >
> > "this manual is outdated. Use texinfo documentation". and texinfo docs was
> > often outdated too.
> >
> > Today it is most probably "look at wikipedia" ;)
> >
> > Of course i means FreeBSD base system, ports are not part of FreeBSD and
> > quality varies.

In "modern applications", documentation is often left out
("Who ever reads that?!"), or it's scattered across web
forums, user web pages and wikis. Some ports for FreeBSD
have good manpages (e. g. "man mplayer", "man xmms" or
even "man opera"), some don't (try to find manpages for
KDE programs, also no "man firefox").



> I have been using GNU/Linux for quite a while and I am most
> comfortable with Archlinux.

That should have provided you with essential basic knowledge
that you can apply in FreeBSD without problems.



> The reason I like it is it's simplicity
> from the ground up without wasting too much time on unimportant
> details (unless you want to).

You will find that aspect in FreeBSD.



> Another strong point is that it provides
> binary packages by default, user-building of packages if you want to,
> and the same level of customization you can achieve with - say -
> Gentoo Linux. FreeBSD seems to provide that.

FreeBSD offers two methods: Source-based or precompiled. Both
of them are build from the ports collection, a kind of means
to control dealing with sources and automatically build from
them.



> I learned over the years that (re-)compilation of packages is not
> something I want to do regularly, but something I would like to do
> only when I need and want to (ie, to strip out or add a certain
> compile-time feature from/to a package).

A prominent example is mplayer / mencoder to deal with codecs.
It's also typically needed to build OpenOffice with non-US
language and "unusual" settings like no integration with KDE
or Gnome (if you're not using them).



> I also learned that the
> performance gains of tuning compiler flags for a certain CPU are not
> that drastic for a desktop/laptop/workstation machine workflow and
> that this category of computing is mostly bound by IO speed
> (especially with HDDs).

It's only needed when you have to get things running on older
hardware. Again, mplayer is a good example for where you intendedly
would deal with compiling in such a constellation.



> q) Is it possible to run a FreeBSD system without much building? In
> other words, can I survive by depending on packages and only resorting
> to ports when really needed?

It is. You're basically using "pkg_add -r " to install
the packages you want. The required dependencies will automatically
be installed.



> What set me off, and got me tired of dealing with Linux-based systems
> is a set of patterns that have been repeating over for some years
> now. Generally:
> 
> 1. Too often, core system components break (especially with every
>Linux kernel release).

They don't in FreeBSD. Only tested and verified modifications
will be committed to the non-experimental branches (the security
branch of -RELEASE, and the -STABLE branch). If you're following
the experimental development branch -HEAD, it _might_ happen that
the system doesn't even compile, but updated 30 minutes after
that "accident", it runs fine again. :-)



>1. Yesterday I spent 30 minutes until my webcam worked, dealing with
>   v4l, gstreamer and cheese.

FreeBSD - unlike Linux! - has a differentiation between the OS
(FreeBSD itself, the operating system) and 3rd party applications
("everything else", the ports collection). Even if you mess up
all your ports, you _never_ will end up with a defective OS. So
even in such a worst case, you can still access system means for
diagnostics and repair.



> 2. Sudden drastic changes that are deviating from simplicity.
>1. The sudden flood of daemons that are designed to do everything
>   for me, without giving me much say in the matter. My computer is
>   supposed to help me, not decide for me or replace me.

The concept of FreeBSD includes to have several system-level
deamons available, but only few of them are running by default.
You have to enable them if you feel you need them. This is
done in centralized (!) system co

Re: Why Clang

[Roger B.A. Klorese]

On 6/21/12 1:40 AM, Michel Talon wrote:

Second, FreeBSD is not a commercial company, and while this argument may have a 
merit
for commercial sponsors of FreeBSD, it has zero bearing on FreeBSD itself.


You seem to be unaware of what percentage of the development and 
maintenance staff and the money to pay for them comes from those 
commercial users. If FreeBSD cannot maintain the critical mass to 
continue, it will not continue.

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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Kaya Saman]

[...]


My one note to the above would be to advise against using it for swap 
- unless you have enough RAM to make sure you never swap.  It doesn't 
do well in that role, in my experience.  (Though that was under a 
slightly earlier version.)


I remember on SXCE running on my test Sun E420r server that ZFS (can't 
remember if this was in the spec file or not??) would use **any** usable 
or unpartitioned file system as swap. I maybe totally off-base with this 
as I was too knew to investigate the issue and was still learning 
Solaris at the time but all of a sudden a remote mounted external drive 
would start getting zapped by I/O usage. Of course it couldn't be any 
user as the only user for those machines was me and I wasn't doing 
anything on either system.



That was quite a weird thing, but happened many years ago so my memory 
is quite hazy on the specifics of the issue too


I do recall running top to see swap usage at a few tens of gigs which 
was quite funny, of course unmounting the drive dropped the swap back to 
whatever got allocated by SXCE default.




Daniel T. Staal


Regards,


Kaya
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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Wojciech Puchar]

his interactions on several topics.

ZFS is stable and tested, and works well if you have the resources.  That 
means RAM as well as hard disks - and if you don't have the resources, most 
of ZFS's advantages wouldn't be coming into play anyway. I have seen no


right. repeat it more times, as your clients may read it :)
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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Wojciech Puchar]

True but this applies as much to you. You think you know it all and that is 
quite the probdlem with you.
And  "discussing" with you is a true waste with this attittute. Even its free.


so stop it.
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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Daniel Staal]

On 2012-06-21 08:12, Евгений Лактанов wrote:

21.06.2012 15:52, Wojciech Puchar пишет:

stick with UFS. It JUST WORKS(R), and is trusty.
And it works fast.
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I see the trend here. That guy is determined to shove his opinion 
down

the throat of everybody. Stop it, tis most annoying.

Back to the topic. ZFS support has matured greatly since the last 
time

you tried it, currently freebsd supports zfs pool v. 28 in the last
updates. Try it, it won't disappoint you.


Agreed.  Wojciech Puchar is in my 'probable troll' file at this point, 
from his interactions on several topics.


ZFS is stable and tested, and works well if you have the resources.  
That means RAM as well as hard disks - and if you don't have the 
resources, most of ZFS's advantages wouldn't be coming into play anyway. 
I have seen no reason to believe at this point (under FreeBSD 9) that 
it is any less stable than any other filesystem.  It is still fairly new 
relatively, but I and others have used it with no problems, on boxes of 
various sizes.  Getting the best performance may take some tweaking on 
occasion, but in general it should be very good.  (And getting the best 
performance out of a multi-terabyte drive array will take tweaking no 
matter what file system you are trying.)


My one note to the above would be to advise against using it for swap - 
unless you have enough RAM to make sure you never swap.  It doesn't do 
well in that role, in my experience.  (Though that was under a slightly 
earlier version.)


Daniel T. Staal

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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Matthias Gamsjager]

On 21 jun. 2012, at 18:07, Wojciech Puchar  
wrote:

>>> stupid answer to stupid question.
>>> You never seen - but they do happens.
>> 
>> In other topic you hammerd on  fact and if someone ask you to deliver them 
>> its a stupid question.
> just a proof it is a waste of time to explain things (FOR FREE) for people 
> like you.
> 
> You are free to make dangerous setups. People are free to hire you and 
> believe at things what you do. People are free to then pay consequences of 
> the results at unexpected time, as well as 10 times oversized hardware for a 
> need.
> 
> At least this is still free :)

True but this applies as much to you. You think you know it all and that is 
quite the probdlem with you. 
And  "discussing" with you is a true waste with this attittute. Even its free. 
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Re: A bash scripting question

[Devin Teske]

On Jun 21, 2012, at 6:40 AM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:

> How Can I simplify/perfect the following script, so that I read _ALL_ the
> lines in the file and act on the content as shown below, so that I do not
> have to specifiy an action per line?
> 
> This below is doing exactly what i need BUT reading one line at a time
> untill the 10th line, if i want more i add manually...
> This might help some1 someday! But if there is a way to perfect it please
> do so.
> 
> #!/usr/local/bin/bash
> 
> smsfile=email_to_sms
> `grep Subject /var/spool/mail/sms >>$smsfile`
> if [[ -s $smsfile ]] ; then
> cat /dev/null > /var/spool/mail/sms
> sed -i 's/Subject: //g' $smsfile
> echo `sed -n '1p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==1
> {print $1}' $smsfile`
> echo `sed -n '2p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==2
> {print $1}' $smsfile`
> echo `sed -n '3p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==3
> {print $1}' $smsfile`
> echo `sed -n '4p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==4
> {print $1}' $smsfile`
> echo `sed -n '5p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==5
> {print $1}' $smsfile`
> echo `sed -n '6p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==6
> {print $1}' $smsfile`
> echo `sed -n '7p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==7
> {print $1}' $smsfile`
> echo `sed -n '8p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==8
> {print $1}' $smsfile`
> echo `sed -n '9p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==9
> {print $1}' $smsfile`
> echo `sed -n '10p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==10
> {print $1}' $smsfile`
> else
> echo "***Sorry the SMS FILE "$smsfile" is empty."
> fi
> gammu-smsd start
> cat email_to_sms >> email_to_sms2
> cat /dev/null > email_to_sms
> 

Try the following…

#!/bin/sh
smsfile=email_to_sms
spoolfile=/var/spol/mail/sms
grep Subject "$spoolfile" >> "$smsfile"
if [ -s "$smsfile" ]; then
: > "$spoolfile"
sed -e 's/Subject: //g' "$smsfile" | awk '
{
if (NR > 10) exit
print | "/usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT " $1
}'
else
echo "***Sorry the SMS FILE "$smsfile" is empty."
fi
gammu-smsd start
cat "$smsfile" >> email_to_sms2
: > "$smsfile"

-- 
Devin

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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Randal L. Schwartz]

> "Wojciech" == Wojciech Puchar  writes:

Wojciech> I ignore performance issues completely for now.

An ironic line, given your complaints about clang.

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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Wojciech Puchar]

stupid answer to stupid question.
You never seen - but they do happens.


In other topic you hammerd on  fact and if someone ask you to deliver them its 
a stupid question.
just a proof it is a waste of time to explain things (FOR FREE) for people 
like you.


You are free to make dangerous setups. People are free to hire you and 
believe at things what you do. People are free to then pay consequences 
of the results at unexpected time, as well as 10 times oversized hardware 
for a need.


At least this is still free :)
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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Wojciech Puchar]

Another important point:

With 24 ZFS mirrors you'd have your data being striped across ALL the 
mirrors. This will yield much better performance.


i  though already after few mails that you can discuss things normally.

But this reply just perfectly proves you didn't read more than maybe my 
last sentence in spite of nearly a page of explanation written.


My advices was now for free.
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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Matthias Gamsjager]

On 21 jun. 2012, at 17:15, Wojciech Puchar  
wrote:

>> 
>> I do understand your setup but I dont have too agree that it is a good
> 
> so i would repeat my question.
> Assume you have 48 disks, in mirrored configuration (24 mirrors) and 480 
> users with their data on them.
> 
> Your solution with ZFS - ZFS crashes or you get double disk failure.
> Assuming the latter by average one per 24 file (randomly chosen) is destroyed 
> which - in practice and limited time, means everything destroyed. Actually 
> more than one per 24 - large files can be spread over.
> 
> Your solution with UFS - better as there is fsck which slowly but 
> successfully repairs problem. with double disk failure - the same!
> 
> 
> You restore everything from backup (i assume you have one). This takes like a 
> day or more, one or two complete work days lost+all users in practice lost 
> everything  since last backup.
> 
> My solution with UFS - fsck in case of failure work in parallel on 24 disks 
> so not that long. double disk failure means losing data of 1/24 users.
> 
> every one per 24 user cannot work, others work and i without any stress do 
> recover this 1/24 of users data from backup after putting replacement disks.
> 
> 1/24 of users lost data since last backup, and some hours of time.
> 
> 
> Even assuming ZFS is perfect then we both have problems as often, but my 
> problems are 1/24 as severe as yours.
> 
> 
> Just don't ask me for help when unhappy users will want to cut off your head.
> 
>>> And you've never seen me, yet i still exist.
>>> 
>> 
>> Really? that's you anwser to my question. The most childish answer I could
> 
> stupid answer to stupid question.
> You never seen - but they do happens.

In other topic you hammerd on  fact and if someone ask you to deliver them its 
a stupid question. 

And about the dram error. I really hope you do use ecc memory in production 
which renders your scenario invalide. And even then its a claim made by you 
some random dude on a list. 

Without proper test scenario and documentation such claims are just useless. 

And a proper layout zfs will withstand a double disk failure with zero 
downtime...where younhave to tell your customer they just lost a day 
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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Mark Felder]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 10:42:55 -0500, Wojciech Puchar  
 wrote:




And it is truly funny for me to know people do think this way.



If you understood how ZFS commits data to disk you'd not be making these  
statements. Also, if you take snapshots you can just roll back if there is  
any weirdness at all.


Another important point:

With 24 ZFS mirrors you'd have your data being striped across ALL the  
mirrors. This will yield much better performance.

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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Wojciech Puchar]

I think it is incorrect to assume that a failure with ZFS that cannot be 
recovered could be recovered if you used UFS with fsck.

i think it is incorrect to not read carefully.

So explanation - ZFS failure NOT caused by disks failure cannot be usually 
recovered.


But even if i am wrong at this, rest still apply.

What fsck fixes in 
other file systems doesn't apply to ZFS by ZFS's design.fsck deals with 
fixing superblock inconsistancies on non-journaled file systems (like 
UFS/UFS2), not resurecting corrupted blocks on a disk.


http://www.c0t0d0s0.org/archives/6071-No,-ZFS-really-doesnt-need-a-fsck.html

yes i know that article.

And it is truly funny for me to know people do think this way.
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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[weldon]

On 21.06.2012 10:15, Wojciech Puchar wrote:


I do understand your setup but I dont have too agree that it is a 
good


so i would repeat my question.
Assume you have 48 disks, in mirrored configuration (24 mirrors) and
480 users with their data on them.

Your solution with ZFS - ZFS crashes or you get double disk failure.
Assuming the latter by average one per 24 file (randomly chosen) is
destroyed which - in practice and limited time, means everything
destroyed. Actually more than one per 24 - large files can be spread
over.

Your solution with UFS - better as there is fsck which slowly but
successfully repairs problem. with double disk failure - the same!


You restore everything from backup (i assume you have one). This
takes like a day or more, one or two complete work days lost+all 
users

in practice lost everything  since last backup.

My solution with UFS - fsck in case of failure work in parallel on 24
disks so not that long. double disk failure means losing data of 1/24
users.

every one per 24 user cannot work, others work and i without any
stress do recover this 1/24 of users data from backup after putting
replacement disks.

1/24 of users lost data since last backup, and some hours of time.


Even assuming ZFS is perfect then we both have problems as often, but
my problems are 1/24 as severe as yours.




I think it is incorrect to assume that a failure with ZFS that cannot 
be recovered could be recovered if you used UFS with fsck.  What fsck 
fixes in other file systems doesn't apply to ZFS by ZFS's design.
fsck deals with fixing superblock inconsistancies on non-journaled file 
systems (like UFS/UFS2), not resurecting corrupted blocks on a disk.


http://www.c0t0d0s0.org/archives/6071-No,-ZFS-really-doesnt-need-a-fsck.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fsck
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFS2
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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Wojciech Puchar]

I do understand your setup but I dont have too agree that it is a good


so i would repeat my question.
Assume you have 48 disks, in mirrored configuration (24 mirrors) and 480 
users with their data on them.


Your solution with ZFS - ZFS crashes or you get double disk failure.
Assuming the latter by average one per 24 file (randomly chosen) is 
destroyed which - in practice and limited time, means everything 
destroyed. Actually more than one per 24 - large files can be spread over.


Your solution with UFS - better as there is fsck which slowly but 
successfully repairs problem. with double disk failure - the same!



You restore everything from backup (i assume you have one). This takes 
like a day or more, one or two complete work days lost+all users in 
practice lost everything  since last backup.


My solution with UFS - fsck in case of failure work in parallel on 24 
disks so not that long. double disk failure means losing data of 1/24 
users.


every one per 24 user cannot work, others work and i without any stress do 
recover this 1/24 of users data from backup after putting replacement 
disks.


1/24 of users lost data since last backup, and some hours of time.


Even assuming ZFS is perfect then we both have problems as often, but my 
problems are 1/24 as severe as yours.



Just don't ask me for help when unhappy users will want to cut off your 
head.



And you've never seen me, yet i still exist.



Really? that's you anwser to my question. The most childish answer I could


stupid answer to stupid question.
You never seen - but they do happens.
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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Matthias Gamsjager]

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Wojciech Puchar <
woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl> wrote:

>
>>>
>>>  interesting idea but the options ZFS would give you are superior to this
>> setup.
>>
>
> Were you just unable to understand my setup or a reasons to do this?
>
> please reread former post and possibly ask again if you don't understand
> the reasons.
>
> I ignore performance issues completely for now.



I do understand your setup but I dont have too agree that it is a good
solution. I know you think it's the best and only one :)


>
>
>  But I have still not seen any evidence/facts that ZFS looses more
>> data than UFS.
>>
>
> And you've never seen me, yet i still exist.
>

Really? that's you anwser to my question. The most childish answer I could
image. You have a gift to troll and ruine every topic with this kind of
answers
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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Wojciech Puchar]

With UFS2 you can use file systems up to 2^73 (8 ZB). The problem is not UFS, 
but the old tools used to format the disk like fdisk and bsdlabel. For big 
file systems you must use gpart.
true. or not using anything at all (and put filesystem directly on whole 
device/mirror).


The problem with file system recovery times when "the worst thing 
happens"(tm) is soluted/mitigated with su+j on FreeBSD9.


True but i don't believe completely in SU+J. i use it - eg on my 
private backup disk. but do full fsck sometimes. and usually few, but 
nonzero amount of errors are corrected.


but with just SU it is easy to solve.

Disable fsck on boot at all. softupdates allow that risk without problems.

then do fsck at time when full or partial system outage  can be tolerated 
- after work hours. This is my solution used everywhere.



of course fsck on 100TB filesystem will be too slow.
But it is implementation problem, and could be improved.
but i would not recommend making single virtual device (gmirror/gstripe or 
dedicated hardware matrix controller) from too many disks because of the 
risk.

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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Wojciech Puchar]

interesting idea but the options ZFS would give you are superior to this
setup.


Were you just unable to understand my setup or a reasons to do this?

please reread former post and possibly ask again if you don't understand 
the reasons.


I ignore performance issues completely for now.


But I have still not seen any evidence/facts that ZFS looses more
data than UFS.


And you've never seen me, yet i still exist.
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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Wojciech Puchar]

One interesting feature of ZFS if it's block checksum: all reads and writes 
include block checksum, so it can easily detect situations where, for 
example, data is quietly corrupted by RAM.


you may be shocked but you are sometimes wrong. i already demostrated it 
and checksumming doesn't get any errors, and do write wrong data with right 
checksums :)


it's quite easy to explain if one understand hardware details.

Checksumming will protect you from

- failed SATA/SAS port, on-disk controller that returns bad data as good. 
This is actually really rare case. i never seen that, but maybe it 
happens.


- some types of DRAM failure - but not all. Actually just a small 
fraction because DRAM failure like that would bring your system to crash 
so quickly that you are unlikely to get big data corruption.


Common case with DRAM memory is that after you write to it, keeps right 
data some time and RARELY flips some bit later in spite of refresh.


With this type you may run your machine for hours, even days or longer.
And ZFS would calculate proper checksum of wrong data and will write it to 
disk.



This is the reason i keep few failed DIMMs - for testing how 
different software behaves on broken machine.


UFS resulted in few corrupted files after half a day of heavy work and 4 
crashes. fsck always recovered things well (of course "unexpected 
softupdate inconsistency")


ZFS survived 2 crashes. After third it panicked on startup.

Of course - no zfs_fsck.
And no possibility of making really good zfs_fsck because of data layout, 
at least not easy.




This feature is very important for databases.

is data integrity not important for the rest? :)

Still - disks itself perform quite heavy ECC and both SATA and SAS ports.
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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Dennis Glatting]

On Thu, 2012-06-21 at 07:55 -0500, wel...@excelsusphoto.com wrote:
> On 21.06.2012 07:39, Dennis Glatting wrote:
> 
> >
> > Stable? Yes. Be sure you have up-to-date FreeBSD kernel and your HBA
> > firmware is up-to-date. Generally I use LSI 9211 cards.
> >
> 
> Does the 9211 support JBOD (complete plain disks, no RAID or single 
> disk RAID mess)?

Typically I simply reburn them with IT firmware however I found under IR
that a disk on an unconfigured port is seen by the kernel and usable but
I haven't looked at any performance impact and I can't say whether
that's a good idea.


-- 
Dennis Glatting 

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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Eduardo Morras]

At 16:13 21/06/2012, you wrote:

On 6/21/2012 4:22 PM, Wojciech Puchar wrote:

stick with UFS. It JUST WORKS(R), and is trusty.
And it works fast.

What options are there for >2TB file systems with UFS?


With UFS2 you can use file systems up to 2^73 (8 ZB). The problem is 
not UFS, but the old tools used to format the disk like fdisk and 
bsdlabel. For big file systems you must use gpart.


The problem with file system recovery times when "the worst thing 
happens"(tm) is soluted/mitigated with su+j on FreeBSD9.


HTH  



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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Julien Cigar]

On 06/21/2012 16:13, Hooman Fazaeli wrote:

On 6/21/2012 4:22 PM, Wojciech Puchar wrote:

stick with UFS. It JUST WORKS(R), and is trusty.
And it works fast.


What options are there for >2TB file systems with UFS?


this should not be a problem if you use GPT + gpart (which is the way to 
go nowadays)



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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Matthias Gamsjager]

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 4:22 PM, Wojciech Puchar <
woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl> wrote:

>
>> answer yourself.
>>
>>
>> Sorry but I don;t follow you right there. with 48 disks you would not
>> mirror 24vs24.
>>
>
> if i wasn't clear enough then i would it like that (with UFS), and
> assuming disks are named disk0disk48, and that i have at least one more
> disk for system code, often acessed data etc (SSD would be fine), while
> these 48 disks store user/whatever data.
>
> gmirror label ...options... mirror1 /dev/disk0 /dev/disk1
> gmirror label ...options... mirror2 /dev/disk2 /dev/disk3
> .
> .
> .
> gmirror label ...options... mirror24 /dev/disk46 /dev/disk47
>
> then newfs etc.. and mounted as 24 filesystems. eg. /home1.../home24
>
> then decide how to spread things properly. this depend of your needs.
>
>
interesting idea but the options ZFS would give you are superior to this
setup. But I have still not seen any evidence/facts that ZFS looses more
data than UFS.
Excluding user error which is 90% the reason data is lost.
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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Julien Cigar]

One interesting feature of ZFS if it's block checksum: all reads and 
writes include block checksum, so it can easily detect situations where, 
for example, data is quietly corrupted by RAM.

This feature is very important for databases.

On 06/21/2012 15:58, Matthias Gamsjager wrote:

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 3:43 PM, Wojciech Puchar<
woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl>  wrote:


I really want to see your face when you fsck 48TB w/o ffs+j (since that is

so young must be immature :S ) of data with the phone ring non stop with


Even if ZFS would be the only filesystem in existence i would make one per
2 disks (single mirror).

No matter what's going on, what do you prefer in case say - double disk
failure from one mirror on 48 disk systems?

losing completely data of 1/24 of users (and then restoring that amount
from backups), or losing randomly chosen 1/24 of files from whole system?

answer yourself.


Sorry but I don;t follow you right there. with 48 disks you would not
mirror 24vs24. I will perform very well but there is too much risk in that.
you would rather go with a raidz2 stripe sets.



With UFS of  course i would have single disk fsck time - less than a hour.
which CAN be done out of work hours with soft updates.

i normally turn off automatic fsck for large data filesystems, and if
crash happened i run it after/before work hours.


raid is not a backup. You can loose data with any configuration or fs. so

like in the compiler discussion. There is no perfect something in this
world. It's always a tradeoff.
with ZFS you have access to most advanced techniques and I believe that
data is most safe with raidz3 as it can be. UFS cant match that and you
have to rely on a raidcontroller which can screw up your data as well.
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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Wojciech Puchar]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012, Hooman Fazaeli wrote:


On 6/21/2012 4:22 PM, Wojciech Puchar wrote:

stick with UFS. It JUST WORKS(R), and is trusty.
And it works fast.


What options are there for >2TB file systems with UFS?


the same as for <2TB filesystems.
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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Wojciech Puchar]

answer yourself.


Sorry but I don;t follow you right there. with 48 disks you would not mirror 
24vs24.


if i wasn't clear enough then i would it like that (with UFS), and 
assuming disks are named disk0disk48, and that i have at least one 
more disk for system code, often acessed data etc (SSD would be fine), 
while these 48 disks store user/whatever data.


gmirror label ...options... mirror1 /dev/disk0 /dev/disk1
gmirror label ...options... mirror2 /dev/disk2 /dev/disk3
.
.
.
gmirror label ...options... mirror24 /dev/disk46 /dev/disk47

then newfs etc.. and mounted as 24 filesystems. eg. /home1.../home24

then decide how to spread things properly. this depend of your needs.

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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Hooman Fazaeli]

On 6/21/2012 4:22 PM, Wojciech Puchar wrote:

stick with UFS. It JUST WORKS(R), and is trusty.
And it works fast.


What options are there for >2TB file systems with UFS?
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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Matthias Gamsjager]

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 3:43 PM, Wojciech Puchar <
woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl> wrote:

> I really want to see your face when you fsck 48TB w/o ffs+j (since that is
>> so young must be immature :S ) of data with the phone ring non stop with
>>
>
> Even if ZFS would be the only filesystem in existence i would make one per
> 2 disks (single mirror).
>
> No matter what's going on, what do you prefer in case say - double disk
> failure from one mirror on 48 disk systems?
>
> losing completely data of 1/24 of users (and then restoring that amount
> from backups), or losing randomly chosen 1/24 of files from whole system?
>
> answer yourself.
>

Sorry but I don;t follow you right there. with 48 disks you would not
mirror 24vs24. I will perform very well but there is too much risk in that.
you would rather go with a raidz2 stripe sets.


>
> With UFS of  course i would have single disk fsck time - less than a hour.
> which CAN be done out of work hours with soft updates.
>
> i normally turn off automatic fsck for large data filesystems, and if
> crash happened i run it after/before work hours.
>
>
> raid is not a backup. You can loose data with any configuration or fs. so
like in the compiler discussion. There is no perfect something in this
world. It's always a tradeoff.
with ZFS you have access to most advanced techniques and I believe that
data is most safe with raidz3 as it can be. UFS cant match that and you
have to rely on a raidcontroller which can screw up your data as well.
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Re: Is ZFS production ready?

[Wojciech Puchar]

I really want to see your face when you fsck 48TB w/o ffs+j (since that is
so young must be immature :S ) of data with the phone ring non stop with


Even if ZFS would be the only filesystem in existence i would make one per 
2 disks (single mirror).


No matter what's going on, what do you prefer in case say - double disk 
failure from one mirror on 48 disk systems?


losing completely data of 1/24 of users (and then restoring that amount 
from backups), or losing randomly chosen 1/24 of files from whole system?


answer yourself.

With UFS of  course i would have single disk fsck time - less than a hour. which CAN be done 
out of work hours with soft updates.


i normally turn off automatic fsck for large data filesystems, and if 
crash happened i run it after/before work hours.



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A bash scripting question

[Odhiambo Washington]

How Can I simplify/perfect the following script, so that I read _ALL_ the
lines in the file and act on the content as shown below, so that I do not
have to specifiy an action per line?

This below is doing exactly what i need BUT reading one line at a time
untill the 10th line, if i want more i add manually...
This might help some1 someday! But if there is a way to perfect it please
do so.

#!/usr/local/bin/bash

smsfile=email_to_sms
`grep Subject /var/spool/mail/sms >>$smsfile`
if [[ -s $smsfile ]] ; then
cat /dev/null > /var/spool/mail/sms
sed -i 's/Subject: //g' $smsfile
echo `sed -n '1p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==1
{print $1}' $smsfile`
echo `sed -n '2p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==2
{print $1}' $smsfile`
echo `sed -n '3p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==3
{print $1}' $smsfile`
echo `sed -n '4p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==4
{print $1}' $smsfile`
echo `sed -n '5p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==5
{print $1}' $smsfile`
echo `sed -n '6p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==6
{print $1}' $smsfile`
echo `sed -n '7p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==7
{print $1}' $smsfile`
echo `sed -n '8p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==8
{print $1}' $smsfile`
echo `sed -n '9p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==9
{print $1}' $smsfile`
echo `sed -n '10p' $smsfile` | /usr/bin/gammu --sendsms TEXT `awk 'NR==10
{print $1}' $smsfile`
else
echo "***Sorry the SMS FILE "$smsfile" is empty."
fi
gammu-smsd start
cat email_to_sms >> email_to_sms2
cat /dev/null > email_to_sms




-- 
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254733744121/+254722743223
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler.
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