[Freedos-devel] A Idea of Text User Interface for FreeDOS.

[Ercan Ersoy]

Hello,

I have an idea. This idea is rewritting FreeDOS FDSHELL program through 
FDOSTUI (http://www.nongnu.org/fdostui/).

I want to start rewritting FDSHELL program in next months. If this 
program is being rewritten by someone, I won't start rewritting this 
program.


Best regards,

Ercan

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Re: [Freedos-devel] An idea ???

[Jayden Charbonneau]

If you are speaking of a 'standard' set of libraries,windows applications
use something similiar.Windows has a set of "Forms" and "Controls",which
ALL apps use (hence,making them windows applications).Windows itself places
a border,with different buttons on each application.The application can
then take this and modify it if needbe.A GUI for DOS that uses the same
concept would be very interesting to implement.With the added "Switching"
capability,it

A)Enables support for modern computational techniques

B)Leaves a door open to old,legacy software

VB.NET is a perfect example of this.Most apps are made with Microsoft
visual studio,and ALL apps use the same framework.I think doing this with
DOS wouldn't be such a bad idea.

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 3:11 PM, G. Potthast 
wrote:

> Hi Tom,
>
> I used a different spreadsheet so far and that worked:
> http://nab.pcug.org.au/
>
> For my 64 bit Nanolinux distro I tried to add Teapot but did not get that
> to
> compile with FLTK 1.3.2. Teapot is written for FLTK 1.0.x and somehow will
> not work with 1.3.2. I spent quite some time but did not get it to work. I
> did not want to add the FLTK 1.0.x library just for that program.
>
> Georg
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] An idea ???

[G. Potthast]

Hi Tom,

I used a different spreadsheet so far and that worked: 
http://nab.pcug.org.au/

For my 64 bit Nanolinux distro I tried to add Teapot but did not get that to 
compile with FLTK 1.3.2. Teapot is written for FLTK 1.0.x and somehow will 
not work with 1.3.2. I spent quite some time but did not get it to work. I 
did not want to add the FLTK 1.0.x library just for that program.

Georg



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Re: [Freedos-devel] An idea ??? - BGI

[Javier Gutiérrez Chamorro]

BGI never existed on Turbo Basic, at least officially.
Not sure about Turbo Prolog nevertheless.

2016-02-20 2:53 GMT+01:00 Ralf Quint :

> On 2/19/2016 5:48 PM, Jose Antonio Senna wrote:
> >   I read (quickly) the Wikipedia article on BGI and
> > the page at openBGI.sourceforge.net and it seems
> > to be just another C library to be linked with apps,
> > not a resident resource.
> >
> BGI is a library that allows to load  drivers for various video cards,
> which are named *.bgi. This library provides a common interface for
> applications (like a GUI/file manager, which is the subject of the
> "idea" here) and exists for both C and Pascal (not sure if there ever
> was a BGI libary for Turbo BASIC).
> Not sure what you mean by "resident resource" or why you would need such...
>
> Ralf
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] An idea??

[Thomas Mueller]

> I just want to mention that I ported the GUI library FLTK to DOS. FLTK
> competes with GTK and has more features than anybody could write from
> scratch within years.

> Based on the FLTK library I wrote the XFDOS Desktop for FreeDOS.

> Anybody is most welcome to use FLTK for DOS to implement GUI based
> applications.

> https://sourceforge.net/p/fltk-dos/wiki/XFDOS/?page=1

> Georg

There is a spreadsheet, teapot, that uses FLTK for graphic version but also has 
a console version.

https://www.syntax-k.de/projekte/teapot/

I don't know if it can be built for FreeDOS, either FLTK version or console 
version.

Tom


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Re: [Freedos-devel] An idea ???

[G. Potthast]

I just want to mention that I ported the GUI library FLTK to DOS. FLTK 
competes with GTK and has more features than anybody could write from 
scratch within years.

Based on the FLTK library I wrote the XFDOS Desktop for FreeDOS.

Anybody is most welcome to use FLTK for DOS to implement GUI based 
applications.

https://sourceforge.net/p/fltk-dos/wiki/XFDOS/?page=1

Georg


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Re: [Freedos-devel] An idea ???

[Steve Nickolas]

On Sat, 20 Feb 2016, Eric Auer wrote:

>
> Hi Jose,
>
> to shorten that thread a bit, I would like to let you know that as
> far as I understood Maarten in off-list chats, he only ponders the
> creation of a graphical file manager, not of a GUI based desktop
> shell or even graphical operating system :-)
>
> Which leads to the question: Which COOL and FREE and OPEN SOURCE
> graphical file managers do you already know and like, guys? :-)
>
> Cheers, Eric

Well, ViewMAX is GPL, and was the DR DOS 5 and 6 shell... ;)

-uso.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] An idea ??? - BGI

[Ralf Quint]

On 2/19/2016 5:48 PM, Jose Antonio Senna wrote:
>   I read (quickly) the Wikipedia article on BGI and
> the page at openBGI.sourceforge.net and it seems
> to be just another C library to be linked with apps,
> not a resident resource.
>
BGI is a library that allows to load  drivers for various video cards, 
which are named *.bgi. This library provides a common interface for 
applications (like a GUI/file manager, which is the subject of the 
"idea" here) and exists for both C and Pascal (not sure if there ever 
was a BGI libary for Turbo BASIC).
Not sure what you mean by "resident resource" or why you would need such...

Ralf

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Re: [Freedos-devel] An idea ???

[Eric Auer]

Consider improving TriDOS. Maybe replace the built-in DPMI engine
by a more mainstream, more comprehensive implementation, as well?

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/util/system

tridos.zip 22k
tridos_s.zip 371k source
tridos.txt 3k direct link:

www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/util/system/tridos.txt

Cheers, Eric

>> Or you could do something like DesqView, as was discussed in this list
>> sometime ago. In short, use the timer interrupt to swap between
>> processes, swapping all their environment at the same time. To give an
>> idea of the amount of work involved, DesqView size is about 200
>> kbytes. JAS
> 
> This is a great idea. Basically, it would be like the old DOS utility
> Memory Shift, which incidentally inspired Andy Hertzfeld to create a
> little utility called "Switcher" for the Mac to do this same job on that
> platform before the MultiFinder came along. Perfect! The minimalist
> nature of DOS would easily lend itself to making something like that
> work and work fairly well.

PS: https://sourceforge.net/p/freedos/mailman/message/30916447/



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Re: [Freedos-devel] An idea???

[Mercury Thirteen]

I was gonna GitHub it, but this 
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/ga535hsby0zkleh/Exelyx%20kernel.7z?dl=0> will 
work just as well for something that's not under active development. Let 
me know if you have questions!


On 2/19/2016 5:14 PM, Maarten Vermeulen wrote:


“Anyway, my shell project (as of my last firing it up a couple years 
ago) basically launches, (..)I still have the Watcom source around if 
you want to check it out or use it as a starting base.”


Give me!!! :p

Seriously though… you know what to do ;)


Working on:
Bird OS 2017 1.0.0a (western screech-owl)
- netraa...@gmail.com
- birdos.2...@gmail.com
"why? Because Freedos, that's why!"

Some Nice projects:
- Freedos
- Night DOS Kernel

*Van: *Mercury Thirteen <mailto:mercury0x0...@gmail.com>
*Verzonden: *vrijdag 19 februari 2016 05:51
*Aan: *Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers. 
<mailto:freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>

*Onderwerp: *Re: [Freedos-devel] An idea???

This was my intent for many years. Eventually I shelved the project 
because it a shell simply can't do all I wanted it to; I needed to go 
more low-level for that. At its heart, DOS (MS-, IBM-, Free- or 
otherwise) is a single tasking OS. What this means is that you /can/ 
make a shell program to replace the command interpreter but when you 
launch a program, everything else stops until that program exits. This 
kinda breaks the functionality which one may think putting a shell 
atop DOS would achieve. If you're basically making a file manager, 
then that's quite doable and you'd basically end up with a Windows 3.x 
clone. Well, I shouldn't say /clone/ per se, because I hope you'd give 
it a much better interface than that of that eyesore.


In theory you could develop small apps (and even run them multitasked) 
for a shell. Basically you'd include in your shell a rudimentary 
virtual machine which would execute bytecode a'la Java. What this 
bytecode would be is completely up to you. Do you make a custom 
bytecode which is powerful and compact yet not understood by any 
existing development tools out there? Do you make the bytecode 
basically a direct ripoff of the x86 instruction set, enabling you to 
run small programs compiled by anything from NASM to QuickBASIC? Do 
you say screw it and just make a whole new kernel which will handle 
all this fanciness at a hardware level as it was meant to be? These 
are all issues you'd have to address if you took this route. Granted, 
the virtual machine approach would require /lots/ of patience and time 
to implement, but it can be done. Don't ask me how I know lol


Anyway, my shell project (as of my last firing it up a couple years 
ago) basically launches, does some environment probing, sets up some 
structures and then sits in a loop where you can access a menu and 
test out the various features and such. There's code for handling VESA 
mode switching, drawing in and manipulating off-screen memory buffers 
known as pixmaps, text string manipulation, mouse polling, direct LBA 
disk access and even the tiny beginnings of PCI bus probing. I still 
have the Watcom source around if you want to check it out or use it as 
a starting base.


So far as your question, a 16-bit shell can load whatever graphics 
formats it's been programmed to handle. The biggest hang-up to doing 
so is the screen mode situation under DOS. There's a good chance 
you're going to want graphics which don't look blocky and colors depth 
beyond 256. If that's true, then your code needs to use VESA. Doing so 
gives you access to smooth animation, millions of colors and high 
resolutions (up to 1600 x 1200, I believe), all of which you normally 
can't have under plain DOS. I have 16-bit code (some written from 
scratch, some retooled from public domain works) to load and save 
images in jpg, bmp, pcx, gif (and a few other) formats. Although it's 
not all been ported to Watcom as of yet, it may come in handy for you 
as well. Images can be quite large and working with them can therefore 
involve large amounts of data, so I would definitely recommend using 
speedy 32-bit Watcom code (and the access-to-gobs-of-memory associated 
with it) for this kind of work.


Others have given many nice examples of DOS GUI software but I didn't 
see Qube 
<http://www.osnews.com/story/75/Enter_the_Qube_a_New_Graphics_Environment_for_CLI_OSes> 
mentioned. I'm not sure if it was ever released or whatever, but I 
think it certainly is a nice looking addition to the list. Make your 
shell sport an interface like that, and you just may have something. 
:) Also, our own Chelson works on DOSCore (formerly OZone, I believe), 
so he may be a valuable resource to you as well. Small world, eh?


Personally, while I may not use a GUI much for my DOS needs, I still 
think it would be nice to see FreeDOS get this addition because... 
well, you know why. ;)


On 2/17/2016 3:19 PM, Maarten Vermeulen wrote:

Hi all,

It’s not really a

Re: [Freedos-devel] An idea ???

[Mercury Thirteen]

On 2/19/2016 6:06 PM, Jose Antonio Senna wrote:

...
Or you could do something like DesqView, as was discussed in this list 
sometime ago. In short, use the timer interrupt to swap between 
processes, swapping all their environment at the same time. To give an 
idea of the amount of work involved, DesqView size is about 200 
kbytes. JAS


This is a great idea. Basically, it would be like the old DOS utility 
Memory Shift, which incidentally inspired Andy Hertzfeld to create a 
little utility called "Switcher" for the Mac to do this same job on that 
platform before the MultiFinder came along. Perfect! The minimalist 
nature of DOS would easily lend itself to making something like that 
work and work fairly well.


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ATI
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Re: [Freedos-devel] An idea ???

[Eric Auer]

Hi Jose,

to shorten that thread a bit, I would like to let you know that as
far as I understood Maarten in off-list chats, he only ponders the
creation of a graphical file manager, not of a GUI based desktop
shell or even graphical operating system :-)

Which leads to the question: Which COOL and FREE and OPEN SOURCE
graphical file managers do you already know and like, guys? :-)

Cheers, Eric



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Re: [Freedos-devel] An idea???

[Maarten Vermeulen]

“Anyway, my shell project (as of my last firing it up a couple years ago) 
basically launches, (..) I still have the Watcom source around if you want to 
check it out or use it as a starting base.”

Give me!!! :p 

Seriously though… you know what to do ;)




Working on:
Bird OS 2017 1.0.0a (western screech-owl)
- netraa...@gmail.com
- birdos.2...@gmail.com
"why? Because Freedos, that's why!"

Some Nice projects:
- Freedos
- Night DOS Kernel

Van: Mercury Thirteen
Verzonden: vrijdag 19 februari 2016 05:51
Aan: Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers.
Onderwerp: Re: [Freedos-devel] An idea???

This was my intent for many years. Eventually I shelved the project because it 
a shell simply can't do all I wanted it to; I needed to go more low-level for 
that. At its heart, DOS (MS-, IBM-, Free- or otherwise) is a single tasking OS. 
What this means is that you can make a shell program to replace the command 
interpreter but when you launch a program, everything else stops until that 
program exits. This kinda breaks the functionality which one may think putting 
a shell atop DOS would achieve. If you're basically making a file manager, then 
that's quite doable and you'd basically end up with a Windows 3.x clone. Well, 
I shouldn't say clone per se, because I hope you'd give it a much better 
interface than that of that eyesore.

In theory you could develop small apps (and even run them multitasked) for a 
shell. Basically you'd include in your shell a rudimentary virtual machine 
which would execute bytecode a'la Java. What this bytecode would be is 
completely up to you. Do you make a custom bytecode which is powerful and 
compact yet not understood by any existing development tools out there? Do you 
make the bytecode basically a direct ripoff of the x86 instruction set, 
enabling you to run small programs compiled by anything from NASM to 
QuickBASIC? Do you say screw it and just make a whole new kernel which will 
handle all this fanciness at a hardware level as it was meant to be? These are 
all issues you'd have to address if you took this route. Granted, the virtual 
machine approach would require lots of patience and time to implement, but it 
can be done. Don't ask me how I know lol

Anyway, my shell project (as of my last firing it up a couple years ago) 
basically launches, does some environment probing, sets up some structures and 
then sits in a loop where you can access a menu and test out the various 
features and such. There's code for handling VESA mode switching, drawing in 
and manipulating off-screen memory buffers known as pixmaps, text string 
manipulation, mouse polling, direct LBA disk access and even the tiny 
beginnings of PCI bus probing. I still have the Watcom source around if you 
want to check it out or use it as a starting base.

So far as your question, a 16-bit shell can load whatever graphics formats it's 
been programmed to handle. The biggest hang-up to doing so is the screen mode 
situation under DOS. There's a good chance you're going to want graphics which 
don't look blocky and colors depth beyond 256. If that's true, then your code 
needs to use VESA. Doing so gives you access to smooth animation, millions of 
colors and high resolutions (up to 1600 x 1200, I believe), all of which you 
normally can't have under plain DOS. I have 16-bit code (some written from 
scratch, some retooled from public domain works) to load and save images in 
jpg, bmp, pcx, gif (and a few other) formats. Although it's not all been ported 
to Watcom as of yet, it may come in handy for you as well. Images can be quite 
large and working with them can therefore involve large amounts of data, so I 
would definitely recommend using speedy 32-bit Watcom code (and the 
access-to-gobs-of-memory associated with it) for this kind of work.

Others have given many nice examples of DOS GUI software but I didn't see Qube 
mentioned. I'm not sure if it was ever released or whatever, but I think it 
certainly is a nice looking addition to the list. Make your shell sport an 
interface like that, and you just may have something. :) Also, our own Chelson 
works on DOSCore (formerly OZone, I believe), so he may be a valuable resource 
to you as well. Small world, eh?

Personally, while I may not use a GUI much for my DOS needs, I still think it 
would be nice to see FreeDOS get this addition because... well, you know why. ;)
On 2/17/2016 3:19 PM, Maarten Vermeulen wrote:
Hi all,
 
It’s not really about FreeDOS… but it has something to do with it. :)
I thought that maybe if you all like the idea, I could make a GUI shell. It 
would be exclusive of course. Though, It will be especially for FreeDOS. And 
maybe also MS-DOS and Night DOS. It’s a sort of a vote. Would you like the idea 
of a new GUI shell? Something new, newer then the old original (still nice) 
Windows shells (Windows 1.0; 1.10; 2.0 etc.). I liked the idea, but if no one 
likes the idea it’s a bit of a pointless t

Re: [Freedos-devel] An idea???

[Mercury Thirteen]

This was my intent for many years. Eventually I shelved the project 
because it a shell simply can't do all I wanted it to; I needed to go 
more low-level for that. At its heart, DOS (MS-, IBM-, Free- or 
otherwise) is a single tasking OS. What this means is that you /can/ 
make a shell program to replace the command interpreter but when you 
launch a program, everything else stops until that program exits. This 
kinda breaks the functionality which one may think putting a shell atop 
DOS would achieve. If you're basically making a file manager, then 
that's quite doable and you'd basically end up with a Windows 3.x clone. 
Well, I shouldn't say /clone/ per se, because I hope you'd give it a 
much better interface than that of that eyesore.


In theory you could develop small apps (and even run them multitasked) 
for a shell. Basically you'd include in your shell a rudimentary virtual 
machine which would execute bytecode a'la Java. What this bytecode would 
be is completely up to you. Do you make a custom bytecode which is 
powerful and compact yet not understood by any existing development 
tools out there? Do you make the bytecode basically a direct ripoff of 
the x86 instruction set, enabling you to run small programs compiled by 
anything from NASM to QuickBASIC? Do you say screw it and just make a 
whole new kernel which will handle all this fanciness at a hardware 
level as it was meant to be? These are all issues you'd have to address 
if you took this route. Granted, the virtual machine approach would 
require /lots/ of patience and time to implement, but it can be done. 
Don't ask me how I know lol


Anyway, my shell project (as of my last firing it up a couple years ago) 
basically launches, does some environment probing, sets up some 
structures and then sits in a loop where you can access a menu and test 
out the various features and such. There's code for handling VESA mode 
switching, drawing in and manipulating off-screen memory buffers known 
as pixmaps, text string manipulation, mouse polling, direct LBA disk 
access and even the tiny beginnings of PCI bus probing. I still have the 
Watcom source around if you want to check it out or use it as a starting 
base.


So far as your question, a 16-bit shell can load whatever graphics 
formats it's been programmed to handle. The biggest hang-up to doing so 
is the screen mode situation under DOS. There's a good chance you're 
going to want graphics which don't look blocky and colors depth beyond 
256. If that's true, then your code needs to use VESA. Doing so gives 
you access to smooth animation, millions of colors and high resolutions 
(up to 1600 x 1200, I believe), all of which you normally can't have 
under plain DOS. I have 16-bit code (some written from scratch, some 
retooled from public domain works) to load and save images in jpg, bmp, 
pcx, gif (and a few other) formats. Although it's not all been ported to 
Watcom as of yet, it may come in handy for you as well. Images can be 
quite large and working with them can therefore involve large amounts of 
data, so I would definitely recommend using speedy 32-bit Watcom code 
(and the access-to-gobs-of-memory associated with it) for this kind of work.


Others have given many nice examples of DOS GUI software but I didn't 
see Qube 
 
mentioned. I'm not sure if it was ever released or whatever, but I think 
it certainly is a nice looking addition to the list. Make your shell 
sport an interface like that, and you just may have something. :) Also, 
our own Chelson works on DOSCore (formerly OZone, I believe), so he may 
be a valuable resource to you as well. Small world, eh?


Personally, while I may not use a GUI much for my DOS needs, I still 
think it would be nice to see FreeDOS get this addition because... well, 
you know why. ;)


On 2/17/2016 3:19 PM, Maarten Vermeulen wrote:


Hi all,

It’s not really about FreeDOS… but it has something to do with it. :)

I thought that maybe if you all like the idea, I could make a GUI 
shell. It would be exclusive of course. Though, It will be especially 
for FreeDOS. And maybe also MS-DOS and Night DOS. It’s a sort of a 
vote. Would you like the idea of a new GUI shell? Something new, newer 
then the old original (still nice) Windows shells (Windows 1.0; 1.10; 
2.0 etc.). I liked the idea, but if no one likes the idea it’s a bit 
of a pointless thing. Also this will be a second project, where I can 
work on when my other project (BirdOS) is paused for a bit. Then I can 
wipe my mind for a bit.. :)


Some things though:

-Can a 16-bit OS load bitmap images?

-Can, if the idea is voted as a yes, I ‘borrow the FreeDOS logo for [1].

[1] a ‘made for FreeDOS 1.2’ and ‘compatible with FreeDOS ‘1.1’ 
emblem/image. This will (maybe) be done with several OS’s.. It will be 
especially for FreeDOS.


Get the discussion going! :)

-Maarten

Re: [Freedos-devel] An idea???

[Maarten Vermeulen]

Okay, thank you! I will see what I get from it. :)
I will also do some research.

-Maarten

Unless you want to read it: Ignore this, this is my signature… :)
--
Working on:
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- netraa...@gmail.com
- birdos.2...@gmail.com
"why? Because Freedos, that's why!"

Some Nice projects:
- Freedos
- Night DOS Kernel


Quote from email:
--


Van: Louis Santillan
Verzonden: donderdag 18 februari 2016 17:54
Aan: Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers.
Onderwerp: Re: [Freedos-devel] An idea???

Forgot to mention NewDeal [0] and some other pre-Y2K GUIs [1].


[0] http://toastytech.com/guis/nd32.html
[1] http://toastytech.com/guis/index.html

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Louis Santillan <lpsan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Maarten,
>
> You should familiarize yourself with what's already been done.
> OPENGEM/GEM [0], SEAL[1], DOSStart [2], others [3][4][5].
>
>
> [0] http://www.freedos.org/software/?prog=opengem
> [1] http://sealsystem.sourceforge.net/
> [2] 
> https://web.archive.org/web/20120818224825/http://www.icdc.com/~dnice/dosstart.html
> [3] http://www.pldos.pl/windos/spectra.htm
> [4] 
> https://web.archive.org/web/20080402084721/http://members.aol.com/aumenu/menudwn.html
> [5] http://members.quicknet.nl/blankendaalr/
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 12:19 PM, Maarten Vermeulen <netraa...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>>
>>
>> It’s not really about FreeDOS… but it has something to do with it. :)
>>
>> I thought that maybe if you all like the idea, I could make a GUI shell. It
>> would be exclusive of course. Though, It will be especially for FreeDOS. And
>> maybe also MS-DOS and Night DOS. It’s a sort of a vote. Would you like the
>> idea of a new GUI shell? Something new, newer then the old original (still
>> nice) Windows shells (Windows 1.0; 1.10; 2.0 etc.). I liked the idea, but if
>> no one likes the idea it’s a bit of a pointless thing. Also this will be a
>> second project, where I can work on when my other project (BirdOS) is paused
>> for a bit. Then I can wipe my mind for a bit.. :)
>>
>>
>>
>> Some things though:
>>
>>
>>
>> -  Can a 16-bit OS load bitmap images?
>>
>> -  Can, if the idea is voted as a yes, I ‘borrow the FreeDOS logo
>> for [1].
>>
>>
>>
>> [1] a ‘made for FreeDOS 1.2’ and ‘compatible with FreeDOS ‘1.1’
>> emblem/image. This will (maybe) be done with several OS’s.. It will be
>> especially for FreeDOS.
>>
>>
>>
>> Get the discussion going! :)
>>
>>
>>
>> -Maarten
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
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>>

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Re: [Freedos-devel] An idea???

[Louis Santillan]

Forgot to mention NewDeal [0] and some other pre-Y2K GUIs [1].


[0] http://toastytech.com/guis/nd32.html
[1] http://toastytech.com/guis/index.html

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Louis Santillan  wrote:
> Maarten,
>
> You should familiarize yourself with what's already been done.
> OPENGEM/GEM [0], SEAL[1], DOSStart [2], others [3][4][5].
>
>
> [0] http://www.freedos.org/software/?prog=opengem
> [1] http://sealsystem.sourceforge.net/
> [2] 
> https://web.archive.org/web/20120818224825/http://www.icdc.com/~dnice/dosstart.html
> [3] http://www.pldos.pl/windos/spectra.htm
> [4] 
> https://web.archive.org/web/20080402084721/http://members.aol.com/aumenu/menudwn.html
> [5] http://members.quicknet.nl/blankendaalr/
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 12:19 PM, Maarten Vermeulen  
> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>>
>>
>> It’s not really about FreeDOS… but it has something to do with it. :)
>>
>> I thought that maybe if you all like the idea, I could make a GUI shell. It
>> would be exclusive of course. Though, It will be especially for FreeDOS. And
>> maybe also MS-DOS and Night DOS. It’s a sort of a vote. Would you like the
>> idea of a new GUI shell? Something new, newer then the old original (still
>> nice) Windows shells (Windows 1.0; 1.10; 2.0 etc.). I liked the idea, but if
>> no one likes the idea it’s a bit of a pointless thing. Also this will be a
>> second project, where I can work on when my other project (BirdOS) is paused
>> for a bit. Then I can wipe my mind for a bit.. :)
>>
>>
>>
>> Some things though:
>>
>>
>>
>> -  Can a 16-bit OS load bitmap images?
>>
>> -  Can, if the idea is voted as a yes, I ‘borrow the FreeDOS logo
>> for [1].
>>
>>
>>
>> [1] a ‘made for FreeDOS 1.2’ and ‘compatible with FreeDOS ‘1.1’
>> emblem/image. This will (maybe) be done with several OS’s.. It will be
>> especially for FreeDOS.
>>
>>
>>
>> Get the discussion going! :)
>>
>>
>>
>> -Maarten
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
>> APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month
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>> ___
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
>>

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Re: [Freedos-devel] An idea???

[Maarten Vermeulen]

Hi,

Interesting what you all think of it. :)
I didn’t research, I first wanted to see what you all think of the idea. And 
actually it’s a bit of a mixed. But definitely some good reactions where there. 
OpenGEM is maybe an option, I will look for that. I will also do some research. 
So what I get out of this is actually (correct me if I am wrong):

- Don’t make a new shell, it’s better to fix problems with the other already 
existing shells.
- Make something difficult, that doesn’t really exist as much as the ‘file 
finder’ shell.
- Much of you don’t really care, it already exists to much?


Thank you!
Maarten




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Re: [Freedos-devel] An idea???

[Louis Santillan]

Maarten,

You should familiarize yourself with what's already been done.
OPENGEM/GEM [0], SEAL[1], DOSStart [2], others [3][4][5].


[0] http://www.freedos.org/software/?prog=opengem
[1] http://sealsystem.sourceforge.net/
[2] 
https://web.archive.org/web/20120818224825/http://www.icdc.com/~dnice/dosstart.html
[3] http://www.pldos.pl/windos/spectra.htm
[4] 
https://web.archive.org/web/20080402084721/http://members.aol.com/aumenu/menudwn.html
[5] http://members.quicknet.nl/blankendaalr/


On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 12:19 PM, Maarten Vermeulen  wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> It’s not really about FreeDOS… but it has something to do with it. :)
>
> I thought that maybe if you all like the idea, I could make a GUI shell. It
> would be exclusive of course. Though, It will be especially for FreeDOS. And
> maybe also MS-DOS and Night DOS. It’s a sort of a vote. Would you like the
> idea of a new GUI shell? Something new, newer then the old original (still
> nice) Windows shells (Windows 1.0; 1.10; 2.0 etc.). I liked the idea, but if
> no one likes the idea it’s a bit of a pointless thing. Also this will be a
> second project, where I can work on when my other project (BirdOS) is paused
> for a bit. Then I can wipe my mind for a bit.. :)
>
>
>
> Some things though:
>
>
>
> -  Can a 16-bit OS load bitmap images?
>
> -  Can, if the idea is voted as a yes, I ‘borrow the FreeDOS logo
> for [1].
>
>
>
> [1] a ‘made for FreeDOS 1.2’ and ‘compatible with FreeDOS ‘1.1’
> emblem/image. This will (maybe) be done with several OS’s.. It will be
> especially for FreeDOS.
>
>
>
> Get the discussion going! :)
>
>
>
> -Maarten
>
>
>
>
> --
> Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
> APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month
> Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now
> Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now!
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
>

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Re: [Freedos-devel] An idea???

[Jim Hall]

Rather than create your own new GUI from scratch, might I convince you to
improve & modernize an existing DOS GUI such as those listed here:
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/gui/

SEAL or OpenGEM might be interesting starting points.
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Re: [Freedos-devel] An idea???

[Ralf Quint]

On 2/17/2016 12:19 PM, Maarten Vermeulen wrote:


Hi all,

It’s not really about FreeDOS… but it has something to do with it. :)

I thought that maybe if you all like the idea, I could make a GUI 
shell. It would be exclusive of course. Though, It will be especially 
for FreeDOS. And maybe also MS-DOS and Night DOS. It’s a sort of a 
vote. Would you like the idea of a new GUI shell? Something new, newer 
then the old original (still nice) Windows shells (Windows 1.0; 1.10; 
2.0 etc.). I liked the idea, but if no one likes the idea it’s a bit 
of a pointless thing. Also this will be a second project, where I can 
work on when my other project (BirdOS) is paused for a bit. Then I can 
wipe my mind for a bit.. :)



Well, to each his/her own...
"I" personally don't care much about a GUI shell, but other might. 
However, a general problem, with all of those GUI shell projects in the 
past is that none of them ever got to the point where they seemed to be 
useful...


Some things though:

-Can a 16-bit OS load bitmap images?

That has nothing to do with the OS, 16bit or not. That would be a 
function of YOUR software, the GUI shell you want to produce...




Ralf


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[Freedos-devel] An idea???

[Maarten Vermeulen]

Hi all,

It’s not really about FreeDOS… but it has something to do with it. :)
I thought that maybe if you all like the idea, I could make a GUI shell. It 
would be exclusive of course. Though, It will be especially for FreeDOS. And 
maybe also MS-DOS and Night DOS. It’s a sort of a vote. Would you like the idea 
of a new GUI shell? Something new, newer then the old original (still nice) 
Windows shells (Windows 1.0; 1.10; 2.0 etc.). I liked the idea, but if no one 
likes the idea it’s a bit of a pointless thing. Also this will be a second 
project, where I can work on when my other project (BirdOS) is paused for a 
bit. Then I can wipe my mind for a bit.. :)

Some things though:

- Can a 16-bit OS load bitmap images?
- Can, if the idea is voted as a yes, I ‘borrow the FreeDOS logo for [1].

[1] a ‘made for FreeDOS 1.2’ and ‘compatible with FreeDOS ‘1.1’ emblem/image. 
This will (maybe) be done with several OS’s.. It will be especially for FreeDOS.

Get the discussion going! :)

-Maarten

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Re: [Freedos-devel] Re: Idea about Virtual PC compatibility / A20 handling

[Johnson Lam]

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:09:50 -0500, you wrote:

Hi Michael,

DEVICE=EMM386.EXE RAM EMM=1024

No, you have to add SB for the SoundBlaster workaround to be 
active.  Anything up to EMM=2030 or in that neighborhood should work too, 
if you want more EMS.

Please advise your 'working' command line, so I can try exactly the
same situation as yours.


Rgds,
Johnson.



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Re: [Freedos-devel] Re: Idea about Virtual PC compatibility / A20 handling

[Michael Devore]

At 02:05 PM 8/26/2004 +0800, Johnson Lam wrote:
On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:09:50 -0500, you wrote:
Hi Michael,
DEVICE=EMM386.EXE RAM EMM=1024

No, you have to add SB for the SoundBlaster workaround to be
active.  Anything up to EMM=2030 or in that neighborhood should work too,
if you want more EMS.
Please advise your 'working' command line, so I can try exactly the
same situation as yours.
I have no set command line here, I change it too much for testing.  Just 
add SB to what you have above and it should work.


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Re: [Freedos-devel] Re: Idea about Virtual PC compatibility / A20 handling

[Johnson Lam]

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:41:43 -0500, you wrote:

Hi Michael,

SoundBlaster requires that you use an EMM= setting in EMM386 of somewhere 
less than mid-2000 since it needs to load in the first 4M of high memory 
already shared with other things.

I've tried lower setting such as 1024, but no working.

It works on my system at EMM=2030, but the boundary can be lower in other 
systems.  EMM=1024 should definitely work, EMM=2100 probably not.

I'll try again, thanks for your value.
Does it mean only 1024 EMS allowed?

This restriction should go away if and when EMS and XMS share the same 
memory pool.

Can I use:

DEVICE=EMM386.EXE RAM EMM=1024


Rgds,
Johnson.



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Re: [Freedos-devel] Re: Idea about Virtual PC compatibility / A20 handling

[Johnson Lam]

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:04:18 -0500, you wrote:

Hi Michael,

Verification needs to be either by my testing here or via a reasonably 
detailed explanation by a reliable source as to why the feature is desired 
or necessary.   Alternatively, if you have incontrovertible proof that a 
new EMM386 option is vital to prevent space aliens from irradiating the 
earth with their king-sized jello ray and converting all life forms to 
gelatinous cubes, I'd like to see that.  I still won't add the option, but 
looking at the proof should be a hoot.

Luckily I'm able to understand what you mean.

Of course, every user will have different application run into
problems with EMM386, some of the customized can't be supported
because they might use some undocumented M$-DOS feature, supporting
every problem is impossible.

I have spare SBLIVE, so I use it. If someone will use SBLIVE, please
vote for it, if I'm the only one, ignore me.

Other than SB Emulation 2.0. I've Chinese system which run into
problem but I never reported, because it's stupid to spend time for
that piece of customized software which few of us will use.

And finally, should one of us send me a private e-mail explaining why my 
position is incorrect, how I am Not Doing The Right Thing, and why FreeDOS 
suffers mightily under my personal development restriction, I feel certain 
that I shall develop a mysterious case of hysterical blindness and fail to 
read its content.  Fortunately, I am sure the condition will clear up soon 
thereafter.

Thank you Michael, for your help to improve EMM386. Also the other
which improve Kernel, FreeCOM and all kind of programs.

I hope that everyone can help to keep that kind of personal emotion
outside FreeDOS, this is the place for development. If someone want to
discuss bureaucracy, please go to related newsgroup.


Rgds,
Johnson.



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Re: [Freedos-devel] Re: Idea about Virtual PC compatibility / A20 handling

[Michael Devore]

At 03:34 PM 8/24/2004 +0800, Johnson Lam wrote:
Verification needs to be either by my testing here or via a reasonably
detailed explanation by a reliable source as to why the feature is desired
or necessary.   Alternatively, if you have incontrovertible proof that a
new EMM386 option is vital to prevent space aliens from irradiating the
earth with their king-sized jello ray and converting all life forms to
gelatinous cubes, I'd like to see that.  I still won't add the option, but
looking at the proof should be a hoot.
Luckily I'm able to understand what you mean.
Of course, every user will have different application run into
problems with EMM386, some of the customized can't be supported
because they might use some undocumented M$-DOS feature, supporting
every problem is impossible.
I have spare SBLIVE, so I use it. If someone will use SBLIVE, please
vote for it, if I'm the only one, ignore me.
I don't need votes to work on something, I just need problem files that 
duplicate a problem.

I've said it before and I'll post the offer again.  If ANY one has ANY 
(noncosmetic) problem with ANY application using FreeDOS which works 
properly in MS-DOS and the problem that is not already known to be with:

 A. the FreeDOS kernel
 B. the command shell FreeCOM, or
 C. a supporting utility like EDIT, MEM, or SORT
and
 D. the problem isn't an already documented limitation of HIMEM or EMM386 
-- which currently means the application cannot require VDS support or 
EMS/XMS memory sharing.

and, finally
 E. you provide the necessary full set of files for me to duplicate the 
problem without requiring hours of setup or privacy-invading download 
restrictions.

THEN, I will look at the application and:
 1. fix the problem or
 2. report why the problem occurs for (hopefully) someone else to fix, or
 3. failing #1 or #2 after a reasonable length of time, give up and 
pretend I never heard of you.

Aggressive bug-fixes at this point appear to be a good way to get FreeDOS 
to the final 1.0 rollout.  For now I have a moderately clear schedule to 
try to push FreeDOS further along the path, so I'm available with a chunk 
of debug time until the next big project comes along.  Obviously subject to 
change.

Which reminds me that I need to post the slightly revised SHARE code which 
is DOS 7-compatible and works with Ensemble Lite.


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Re: [Freedos-devel] Re: Idea about Virtual PC compatibility / A20 handling

[Michael Devore]

At 02:10 PM 8/24/2004 -0300, Alain  wrote:
But, (is there always one?) does the RAM option fall within a 
compatibility problem? I use it as default for one reason: I install it 
on any client machine and I don't expect it to do any optimization, but to 
provide _some_ UMB which ususaly makes a better system as a whole.
RAM should work as of last or last+1 EMM386 unless you mean with a 
range.  It's basically a null option with FreeDOS, though.  Is that what 
you're asking me, or am I missing the question?


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Re: [Freedos-devel] Re: Idea about Virtual PC compatibility / A20 handling

[Michael Devore]

At 10:31 PM 8/24/2004 +0800, Johnson Lam wrote:
Sorry for my stupidity, I really have no idea what's happen in SB
Emulation.
Last test is a failure. It always report cannot load something into
memory (I'll clean up the mess and post again).
SoundBlaster requires that you use an EMM= setting in EMM386 of somewhere 
less than mid-2000 since it needs to load in the first 4M of high memory 
already shared with other things.

It works on my system at EMM=2030, but the boundary can be lower in other 
systems.  EMM=1024 should definitely work, EMM=2100 probably not.

This restriction should go away if and when EMS and XMS share the same 
memory pool.


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[Freedos-devel] Re: Idea about Virtual PC compatibility / A20 handling

[Eric Auer]

Hi, I had some problems with receiving mail, but reading the online
list archives gives me the idea that there is a misunderstanding here...

- Tyler found a small tool, and the readme of that tool states that it
  is important for him (the author of the tool) to keep the tool  0.5k size.
- I checked for optimality of the binary, and found that it starts with
  mov ah,30 / int 21, followed directly by code to release environment from
  RAM (so the returned DOS version is not used).
- So I asked the author of the tool why he had not optimzed away the int 21.30
  call, and after a while, he remembered that he once had a program which would
  crash if it started with using XMS services right away. It did that on a
  Virtual PC system. His solution was to make the program start with int 21.30.
- We had a problem with Virtual PC in emm386/himem recently, and I remembered
  that there was code to disable A20 between exec and the first int 21 call
  by the exec-ed program.

Conclusion: I wrote to the list, suggesting that this might be an A20 related 
problem, and
suggesting to re-add Tom's invention, the refuse to actually disable A20,
to HIMEM (or EMM386: at least MS EMM386 locks the real A20 to on and uses
the paged memory system to SIMULATE a (fast) switchable A20 for DOS), but not
(as for Tom's version) as a compile time option but as a command line switch.
And of course I would like some comments whether my speculations about why
use int 21.30 before XMS to avoid hangs?. Maybe that particular HIMEM or
EMM386 crashed in XMS handling on that particular virtual hardware if the
A20 was not enabled explicitly before calling the XMS handler?

And of course I am interested in the state of LOADFIX for FreeDOS. I think
it once was part of FreeCOM, but 0.82pl3 does not have it compiled in? There
is no separate LOADFIX listed in the LSM database either...!?

Eric


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Re: [Freedos-devel] Re: Idea about Virtual PC compatibility / A20 handling

[Michael Devore]

At 08:02 PM 8/23/2004 +0200, Eric Auer wrote:
Conclusion: I wrote to the list, suggesting that this might be an A20 
related problem, and
suggesting to re-add Tom's invention, the refuse to actually disable A20,
to HIMEM (or EMM386: at least MS EMM386 locks the real A20 to on and uses
the paged memory system to SIMULATE a (fast) switchable A20 for DOS), but not
(as for Tom's version) as a compile time option but as a command line switch.
The only new options and features I will add to EMM386/HIMEM at this point 
in the FreeDOS release schedule are those which are know to correct an 
error or fix a compatibility problem.  Known means exactly that.  It does 
not mean: theorized, guessed, posited, hypothecated, assumed, suggested, or 
run up a flagpole to see what salutes.

The last two features to EMM386 were SB to give it SoundBlaster 
compatibility -- which DOES work with SoundBlast emulation by the way -- 
and ALTBOOT to fix an incompatibility with BreadBox/GEOS's Ensemble.  If, 
and only if, a  problem occurs with an application that requires a new 
feature as verified by me will I personally add such a feature.  Naturally, 
you may convince Tom or someone else to add the feature in the absence of 
such verification, just not me.

Verification needs to be either by my testing here or via a reasonably 
detailed explanation by a reliable source as to why the feature is desired 
or necessary.   Alternatively, if you have incontrovertible proof that a 
new EMM386 option is vital to prevent space aliens from irradiating the 
earth with their king-sized jello ray and converting all life forms to 
gelatinous cubes, I'd like to see that.  I still won't add the option, but 
looking at the proof should be a hoot.

And finally, should one of us send me a private e-mail explaining why my 
position is incorrect, how I am Not Doing The Right Thing, and why FreeDOS 
suffers mightily under my personal development restriction, I feel certain 
that I shall develop a mysterious case of hysterical blindness and fail to 
read its content.  Fortunately, I am sure the condition will clear up soon 
thereafter.


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Re: [Freedos-devel] Re:Eric's idea to put PG binaries online

[Alain]

HI,

I have a BIG question: What is PG? I just searched the site, followed
every link and could not find any explanation, it only says how it can
solve many PC problems, not even specifying which...

If so many people in FreeDOS are interested, I would like to know about ;-)

Alain




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Re: [Freedos-devel] Re:Eric's idea to put PG binaries online

[Steve Nickolas]

At Mon, 16 Feb 2004 4:08pm -0200, Alain wrote:

 HI,
 
 I have a BIG question: What is PG? I just searched the site, followed
 every link and could not find any explanation, it only says how it can
 solve many PC problems, not even specifying which...
 
 If so many people in FreeDOS are interested, I would like to know about ;-)
 
 Alain

It's like LIST.  File viewer.

-uso.



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Re: [Freedos-devel] Re:Eric's idea to put PG binaries online

[Johnson Lam]

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 16:08:17 -0200, you wrote:

Hi Alain,

Link below:

http://www.geocities.com/freedos_pg

If so many people in FreeDOS are interested, I would like to know about ;-)

The problem is PG 1.08 didn't come with binary.

At first I think PG's maintainer BAHCL forgot to put the binary in
archive. But the fact is BAHCL intend to distribute the source only.

Developers and users here have different opinion about source only
distribution and then discussion begin.


Rgds,
Johnson.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] Re:Eric's idea to put PG binaries online

[tom ehlert]

Hello maintainer,

 PS: I would like to have some PG binaries online,
 too. If nobody else wants
 to provide some, I could do so, but I am not sure if
 BAHCL is okay with this!?
 

mf those PG binaries will be covered by the GNU GPL
mf version 2, and will have a link to the PG website.

there's nothing in the GPL that requires a link to your website.

If for some idiotic reasons you don't provide a binary, you have to
live with some other people, distibuting the binaries, and not
pointing to you (as long as they give you a chance to get the source
as well)

tom




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Re: [Freedos-devel] Re:Eric's idea to put PG binaries online

[Jim Hall]

Luchezar Georgiev wrote:
Hi,

This written offer requirement is really scaring indeed. Does the GPL 
say that it must be signed and stamped by a notary? Or passed through 
the United Nations Security Council? ;-)

Just joking, of course - please don't take the above sentences seriously!
:-)

BTW, email written offer is fine.


But including the source with the binaries would be preferable.
Of course, and even better - the binaries with the source! ;-)

Perhaps BAHCL would accept the binaries, and post them on his site?
Indeed, I can't understand why he doesn't want to include binaries?
Well, I've sometimes done that in the past, too, so I can't be too 
critical of BAHCL.  Binaries aren't strictly required by the GNU GPL, 
and if web space is a problem, I can understand not including them.

-jh



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