Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Zog]

I just wanted to say that I thank M Brutman for this great software that 
he has given us for all these years. I may have missed it, but I have 
not noticed anyone saying it lately and I think that it needs to be 
said. I have gotten a lot of use out of it, and appreciate the work he 
has put into it.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Mercury Thirteen]

On 9/9/2015 11:45 PM, Antony Gordon wrote:
>
> Wow,
>
> This is the most activity I've seen on this list in a while, and it's 
> a temper tantrum of sorts over whether someone has the right to close 
> source or open source something they wrote.
>
Tantrums? Here? *gasp* Never...
[/sarcasm]


> Talk about comedy. So how are those bugs looking on the bug list in 
> FreeDOS?
>
> Yeah, I probably just got myself booted from this list, but honestly I 
> think (sans sarcasm) that there are bigger tasks to tackle in FreeDOS 
> than haggling and harassing someone over closed source versus open source.
>
Can you even get banned from here? I'm really not sure if that's 
possible. Using what's been allowed here as a guide, you'd likely have 
to commit one monumental offense to achieve that. lol


> It's really not that important, but I have a simple solution, it's a 
> grand waste of a cd image, but FreeDOS should ship like MS-DOS and 
> PC-DOS with just the operating system and let everyone else work out 
> the other software on their own.
>
> This will eliminate all this back and forth about open source and 
> closed source and can you include my program in because...if it's not 
> a DOS command from 1981 until 1994 (DOS 1.0 - DOS 6.22/7.0) it's not 
> there and you just have to download and build/install yourself.
>
> -T
>
I completely agree. Ship minimal, allow for maximum expansion and don't 
tie yourself down with bloat. Your users will thank you.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Paul Dufresne]

Well, I don't know how hard it would be to port picoTCO (GPL v.2) to DOS:
http://docs.picotcp.com/user_doc.pdf
http://www.picotcp.com/about/
Heard about it from FOSDEM 2014: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO4liMJZ0Qg
also http://video.fosdem.org/2014/AW1121/Sunday/PicoTCP.webm

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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[JAYDEN CHARBONNEAU]

Getting booted over a simple statement isn't even something to worry
about.I think the only person who decides that would be Jim.

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 11:00 AM, Mateusz Viste  wrote:

> On 10/09/2015 19:23, Paul Dufresne wrote:
> > Well, I don't know how hard it would be to port picoTCO (GPL v.2) to DOS:
>
> There is also lwip that looks very solid - highly active, BSD license,
> stable IPv6 support, designed to be lightweight and portable.
>
> And there's already a DOS port of it! made by Gisle Vanem (that's the
> same guy that ported WatTCP to DJGPP):
>
> http://watt-32.net/misc/
>
> Mateusz
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Mateusz Viste]

On 10/09/2015 19:23, Paul Dufresne wrote:
> Well, I don't know how hard it would be to port picoTCO (GPL v.2) to DOS:

There is also lwip that looks very solid - highly active, BSD license, 
stable IPv6 support, designed to be lightweight and portable.

And there's already a DOS port of it! made by Gisle Vanem (that's the 
same guy that ported WatTCP to DJGPP):

http://watt-32.net/misc/

Mateusz


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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Joe Forster/STA]

Hi guys,

I've been coding free (as in use for no costs) software since 1994, with 
60 thousand lines of code. ;-) It's open source but not exactly free (as 
in you may modify, republish it etc.) software. Since about 2010, not 
only I have no time to develop it but it also became obsolete, and I'm 
thinking of donating it into the public domain because there's no point 
of _any_ restriction anymore. However, because it's obsolete, no one 
cares anyway.


But now I'm creating my own - GNU-style, generalized - utilities for 
processing database exports for my job. They haven't been released yet 
but I already wrote into all of them: "released into the public domain". 
I consider it as a maturation of my general attitude.


mTCP/IP - as I understand, never seen it :-) - is apparently _not_ 
obsolete so there's a reason for people to argue and push the author into 
making it (again) open source free software. From this point of view, 
Michael, you should be grateful about it: it implies that there's still 
use for it. ;-) Even if you would never release the new sources anymore. 
And you said you _would_ release them so this is just a misunderstanding. 
Either side, please, don't be mad about it!


Joe
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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Maarten Vermeulen]

Hi all,

Why are we doing so difficult about something that somebody not want to
do.  It is his thing and we have two options:

- using the old one.
- search for another one.

I don't want to be annoying but it is the case.

Maarten
Op 9 sep. 2015 06:57 schreef "Steve Nickolas" :

> On Tue, 8 Sep 2015, Michael Brutman wrote:
>
> > I am not denying anybody their freedom.  People can choose to use what
> they
> > want.  I have given people a great set of networking tools that make
> > FreeDOS and other flavors of DOS more useful.  You have ranted like a
> > little child because this year the gift was not quite as large as you
> > expected.  Shame on you.
>
> If it makes a difference, the guy sounds almost religiously fundamentalist
> about the whole thing... and has a "gnu.org" e-mail address to boot, so
> prolly *is*...
>
> -uso.
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Thomas Mueller]

from Maarten Vermeulen:

> Why are we doing so difficult about something that somebody not want to
> do.  It is his thing and we have two options:

> - using the old one.
> - search for another one.

> I don't want to be annoying but it is the case.

> Maarten
> Op 9 sep. 2015 06:57 schreef "Steve Nickolas" :

> > On Tue, 8 Sep 2015, Michael Brutman wrote:

> > > I am not denying anybody their freedom.  People can choose to use what
> > they
> > > want.  I have given people a great set of networking tools that make
> > > FreeDOS and other flavors of DOS more useful.  You have ranted like a
> > > little child because this year the gift was not quite as large as you
> > > expected.  Shame on you.

> > If it makes a difference, the guy sounds almost religiously fundamentalist
> > about the whole thing... and has a "gnu.org" e-mail address to boot, so
> > prolly *is*...

> > -uso.

There are at least three options.  Third option is to use another open-source 
OS such as Linux, BSD or Haiku, and get better networking than can be found in 
FreeDOS, and a more open attitude to open source.

Third option is so much more popular that there are not many DOS software 
developers left.

Tom



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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro]

Hi Joe!

Em Wed, 9 Sep 2015 10:10:17 +0200 (CEST)
Joe Forster/STA  escreveu:

> But now I'm creating my own - GNU-style, generalized - utilities for 
> processing database exports for my job. They haven't been released
> yet but I already wrote into all of them: "released into the public
> domain". I consider it as a maturation of my general attitude.

Thank you for this initiative!  Have you considered using GPLv3+ as
the license for your software rather than releasing them into the
public domain?

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.en.html

This way you can guarantee that further derivative versions remain
free (as in freedom).


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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[JAYDEN CHARBONNEAU]

Ralf,I would ask that you take a breather.It is his program,he may do
whatever he wishes with it.

On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 3:56 PM, Ralf Quint  wrote:

> On 9/8/2015 7:46 PM, Michael Brutman wrote:
> >
> > I don't know how to respond to this;
> Well, just don't.
> This guy is infected with the "Stallman virus", that is a fatal
> condition for that no cure exists. And he is pushing that point of view
> religiously and merciless on everyone around...
> >
> > What you regret and what your preferences really are not relevant
> > here.  I am expressing my freedom to enjoy my hobby as I see fit, and
> > I have decided that for the moment that releasing the source code is
> > not a priority compared to other things in my life.  It is my choice
> > as to how and when I spend my hobby time.
> >
> > I am not denying anybody their freedom.  People can choose to use what
> > they want.  I have given people a great set of networking tools that
> > make FreeDOS and other flavors of DOS more useful.  You have ranted
> > like a little child because this year the gift was not quite as large
> > as you expected.  Shame on you.
> >
> +1
> Those GNU fanatics don't want for people to have a choice, in particular
> the choice to decide what one is doing with the software (s)he has written.
> The latest version of mTCP is just fine and serves its purpose. As for
> the newer version, well, if you hadn't mentioned it, nobody would know
> that it exists. And would be now just as well off.
>
> DOS is from a time when before mentioned started to spread. With "free"
> software for it in all kinds of forms and licenses. IMHO, with the
> exception of "abandon ware" (which does not exist in any legal form),
> everything that is free to use is fair game. If it isn't free to
> redistribute, well, then that is fine too. Just let those people that
> have an interest in using it decide if they download it or not. Provide
> the link to where it is available and be done with it (as far as
> FreeDOS) is concerned. Not each and every byte of software that runs on
> FreeDOS has to be "included".
> And no need for this kind of "free software shaming"...
>
> Ralf
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Ralf Quint]

On 9/9/2015 4:00 PM, JAYDEN CHARBONNEAU wrote:
> Ralf,I would ask that you take a breather.It is his program,he may do 
> whatever he wishes with it.
>
Well, maybe you should actually read my reply, as that is exactly what I 
am saying...

Ralf

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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Antony Gordon]

Wow,

This is the most activity I've seen on this list in a while, and it's a
temper tantrum of sorts over whether someone has the right to close source
or open source something they wrote.

Talk about comedy. So how are those bugs looking on the bug list in
FreeDOS?

Yeah, I probably just got myself booted from this list, but honestly I
think (sans sarcasm) that there are bigger tasks to tackle in FreeDOS than
haggling and harassing someone over closed source versus open source.

It's really not that important, but I have a simple solution, it's a grand
waste of a cd image, but FreeDOS should ship like MS-DOS and PC-DOS with
just the operating system and let everyone else work out the other software
on their own.

This will eliminate all this back and forth about open source and closed
source and can you include my program in because...if it's not a DOS
command from 1981 until 1994 (DOS 1.0 - DOS 6.22/7.0) it's not there and
you just have to download and build/install yourself.

-T
On Sep 9, 2015 7:02 PM, "Ralf Quint"  wrote:

> On 9/9/2015 4:00 PM, JAYDEN CHARBONNEAU wrote:
> > Ralf,I would ask that you take a breather.It is his program,he may do
> > whatever he wishes with it.
> >
> Well, maybe you should actually read my reply, as that is exactly what I
> am saying...
>
> Ralf
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[JAYDEN CHARBONNEAU]

Woops,typo.I meant to type "can't".

On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 12:50 PM, JAYDEN CHARBONNEAU <
jcharbonnea...@cpsge.org> wrote:

> I read a few heated emails.Let's all calm down and discuss this.So,I
> understand that the current version of M/TCP isn't open sourced.That's
> fine.We still have one from two years ago,which is not THAT outdated.It's
> not like people are going to try connecting CORTANA to DOS.So there is
> really no urgency to have modern packet drivers.Again,within a few
> months,he might release the source,if given the time.As for the
> disputing,it really is his software.We can' just tell microsoft (as much as
> we would like) to open the Windows source to teh public.I wanted open
> source as well.But,we can all wait the few extra months he needs.Regards,
> -Jayden
>
> On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 11:44 AM, Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro <
> oitofe...@gnu.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Joe!
>>
>> Em Wed, 9 Sep 2015 10:10:17 +0200 (CEST)
>> Joe Forster/STA  escreveu:
>>
>> > But now I'm creating my own - GNU-style, generalized - utilities for
>> > processing database exports for my job. They haven't been released
>> > yet but I already wrote into all of them: "released into the public
>> > domain". I consider it as a maturation of my general attitude.
>>
>> Thank you for this initiative!  Have you considered using GPLv3+ as
>> the license for your software rather than releasing them into the
>> public domain?
>>
>> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.en.html
>>
>> This way you can guarantee that further derivative versions remain
>> free (as in freedom).
>>
>>
>> --
>>  ,= ,-_-. =.  Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
>> ((_/)o o(\_)) http://oitofelix.freeshell.org/
>>  `-'(. .)`-'  irc://chat.freenode.org/oitofelix
>>  \_/  xmpp:oitofe...@riseup.net
>>
>> GNU maintainer: ccd2cue
>> DMOZ free software editor (Portuguese)
>> UFU FAMAT PET member
>>
>> [GNU DISCLAIMER] I'm a GNU hacker, but my views don't necessarily
>> match those of the GNU project.  Hereby I express my own opinion,
>> style and perception, in good faith, aiming the betterment of GNU.
>>
>>
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>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[JAYDEN CHARBONNEAU]

I read a few heated emails.Let's all calm down and discuss this.So,I
understand that the current version of M/TCP isn't open sourced.That's
fine.We still have one from two years ago,which is not THAT outdated.It's
not like people are going to try connecting CORTANA to DOS.So there is
really no urgency to have modern packet drivers.Again,within a few
months,he might release the source,if given the time.As for the
disputing,it really is his software.We can' just tell microsoft (as much as
we would like) to open the Windows source to teh public.I wanted open
source as well.But,we can all wait the few extra months he needs.Regards,
-Jayden

On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 11:44 AM, Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro <
oitofe...@gnu.org> wrote:

> Hi Joe!
>
> Em Wed, 9 Sep 2015 10:10:17 +0200 (CEST)
> Joe Forster/STA  escreveu:
>
> > But now I'm creating my own - GNU-style, generalized - utilities for
> > processing database exports for my job. They haven't been released
> > yet but I already wrote into all of them: "released into the public
> > domain". I consider it as a maturation of my general attitude.
>
> Thank you for this initiative!  Have you considered using GPLv3+ as
> the license for your software rather than releasing them into the
> public domain?
>
> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.en.html
>
> This way you can guarantee that further derivative versions remain
> free (as in freedom).
>
>
> --
>  ,= ,-_-. =.  Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
> ((_/)o o(\_)) http://oitofelix.freeshell.org/
>  `-'(. .)`-'  irc://chat.freenode.org/oitofelix
>  \_/  xmpp:oitofe...@riseup.net
>
> GNU maintainer: ccd2cue
> DMOZ free software editor (Portuguese)
> UFU FAMAT PET member
>
> [GNU DISCLAIMER] I'm a GNU hacker, but my views don't necessarily
> match those of the GNU project.  Hereby I express my own opinion,
> style and perception, in good faith, aiming the betterment of GNU.
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[JAYDEN CHARBONNEAU]

I'm sure within a month or two's time,he will have completed the current
version and move on to the next version,henceforth releasing the "Older" so
to speak,source code.And if not,it's not like the users can't just download
it and install/utilize it themselves.

On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 9:09 AM, Jim Hall  wrote:

> >> On 9/7/2015 6:37 PM, Michael Brutman wrote:
> >>
> >> ...
> >> I think that whether it is open source or not it is still a great
> solution
> >> for DOS networking.  If the lack of source code prevents you from using
> mTCP
> >> I regret that and I encourage you to question your assumption that
> without
> >> source code it is not "clean" or "good" enough for you.
> >> ...
>
> > On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:31 PM, Mercury Thirteen
> >  wrote:
> >> Well, Richard Stallman would throw a FIT.
> >>
> >> However... those of us not quite so zealous  see nothing wrong with it.
> >> Source code is nice, but the lack thereof doesn't spell the end of the
> >> world.
>
> On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 10:33 PM, Louis Santillan 
> wrote:
> > Sadly, it would mean that specific version of mTCP could not be included
> in FD.
>
>
> That is correct. As Micheal has pointed out in his email, "The source
> for the 2013-05-23 version is available and always will be." So that's
> good. mTCP is released under the GNU GPL. And if Micheal is the sole
> contributor to the source code, my understanding is he can change the
> license for future releases to make it "closed source." #ianal
>
> But if the newew 2015-07-05 version is not free/open source software,
> then we cannot include it in FreeDOS. We will only be able to include
> the 2013-05-23 version. FreeDOS needs to be free/open source software
> software, or there is no point in a "Free" DOS.
>
> I hope Michael releases mTCP under a free license again. It sounds
> like that is his goal, and I encourage that. Thanks!
>
>
> jh
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Eric Auer]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


Hi Bruno,

> Em Mon, 7 Sep 2015 15:37:18 -0700 Michael Brutman
>  escreveu:
> 
>> If the lack of source code prevents you from using mTCP I regret
>> that and I encourage you to question your assumption that without
>> source code it is not "clean" or "good" enough for you.
> 
> I regret that you've released it as non-free software.  I wonder
> what do you want to achieve, besides power over the users of your
> package.

The rest of Mike's mail already answers your question: The
source code of the (small) updates is not YET public, but
he plans to make them public a bit later. Do not worry :-)

Cheers, Eric

PS: This discussion is surprisingly intense compared to the
one that we would get from releasing still-messy sources ;-)


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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Michael Brutman]

I don't know how to respond to this; I've been stewing about it all day.
First, some facts:

The 2013-05-23 version consists of at least 71 files and totals around
39913 lines of code. Documentation is not counted in those totals.  I
started the project in late 2005.  The source code was released in 2011 and
there were several releases between then and the latest open source
version.  I have close to 10 years of hobby time invested in this project.
 10 years of writing code, testing it, performance tuning it, debugging it,
writing documentation, helping other people get it running, etc.  I gave
all of that work away freely and have never collected anything of value
from it.

I have contributed to open source software both as an individual hobbyist
and as a paid professional.  (Yes, I have been paid to write free software.)


What you regret and what your preferences really are not relevant here.  I
am expressing my freedom to enjoy my hobby as I see fit, and I have decided
that for the moment that releasing the source code is not a priority
compared to other things in my life.  It is my choice as to how and when I
spend my hobby time.

I am not denying anybody their freedom.  People can choose to use what they
want.  I have given people a great set of networking tools that make
FreeDOS and other flavors of DOS more useful.  You have ranted like a
little child because this year the gift was not quite as large as you
expected.  Shame on you.



On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 8:09 AM, Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro <
oitofe...@gnu.org> wrote:

> Em Mon, 7 Sep 2015 15:37:18 -0700
> Michael Brutman  escreveu:
>
> > If the lack of source code prevents you from using mTCP I regret that
> > and I encourage you to question your assumption that without source
> > code it is not "clean" or "good" enough for you.
>
> I regret that you've released it as non-free software.  I wonder what
> do you want to achieve, besides power over the users of your package.
> You are denying them a freedom they deserve to have, that is, they
> deserve to control their computing, rather than begging to a
> particular person or entity for changes they need or want made into
> the package.  I'd sincerely prefer that you hadn't released your
> package at all and I urge people --- that value their freedom --- to
> ignore the current version and fork the latest free version and
> maintain it that way, so FreeDOS users can regain their freedom and
> control when doing their networking.
>
> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-important.html
>
>
> --
>  ,= ,-_-. =.  Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
> ((_/)o o(\_)) http://oitofelix.freeshell.org/
>  `-'(. .)`-'  irc://chat.freenode.org/oitofelix
>  \_/  xmpp:oitofe...@riseup.net
>
> GNU maintainer: ccd2cue
> DMOZ free software editor (Portuguese)
> UFU FAMAT PET member
>
> [GNU DISCLAIMER] I'm a GNU hacker, but my views don't necessarily
> match those of the GNU project.  Hereby I express my own opinion,
> style and perception, in good faith, aiming the betterment of GNU.
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Matej Horvat]

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 17:09:53 +0200, Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro  
 wrote:

> I regret that you've released it as non-free software.  I wonder what
> do you want to achieve, besides power over the users of your package.
> You are denying them a freedom they deserve to have

No one "deserves" anything. Michael doesn't owe anyone anything. As the  
author of the software, he gets to decide how it is released. I (and  
others) appreciate his work, which he has been doing out of his own  
interest and completely free of charge. If you don't, then don't use it.

> they deserve to control their computing

And they can - by using an alternative (for example WATTCP has been  
mentioned - that it isn't maintained is not Michael's problem).

> I'd sincerely prefer that you hadn't released your package at all

Why? See above.

> I urge people [...] to ignore the current version and fork

Do that if you prefer so. But don't decide for others; it is their choice.

> that value their freedom

I also value my freedom. I exercise it by not using products I don't like  
(and searching for alternatives and in some cases writing them myself).  
What others do is their own choice.

Of course, if you had actually read Michael's message, you would know that  
he did not say he would never release his source code, making all of this  
irrelevant.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Jim Hall]

>> On 9/7/2015 6:37 PM, Michael Brutman wrote:
>>
>> ...
>> I think that whether it is open source or not it is still a great solution
>> for DOS networking.  If the lack of source code prevents you from using mTCP
>> I regret that and I encourage you to question your assumption that without
>> source code it is not "clean" or "good" enough for you.
>> ...

> On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:31 PM, Mercury Thirteen
>  wrote:
>> Well, Richard Stallman would throw a FIT.
>>
>> However... those of us not quite so zealous  see nothing wrong with it.
>> Source code is nice, but the lack thereof doesn't spell the end of the
>> world.

On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 10:33 PM, Louis Santillan  wrote:
> Sadly, it would mean that specific version of mTCP could not be included in 
> FD.


That is correct. As Micheal has pointed out in his email, "The source
for the 2013-05-23 version is available and always will be." So that's
good. mTCP is released under the GNU GPL. And if Micheal is the sole
contributor to the source code, my understanding is he can change the
license for future releases to make it "closed source." #ianal

But if the newew 2015-07-05 version is not free/open source software,
then we cannot include it in FreeDOS. We will only be able to include
the 2013-05-23 version. FreeDOS needs to be free/open source software
software, or there is no point in a "Free" DOS.

I hope Michael releases mTCP under a free license again. It sounds
like that is his goal, and I encourage that. Thanks!


jh

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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro]

Em Mon, 7 Sep 2015 15:37:18 -0700
Michael Brutman  escreveu:

> If the lack of source code prevents you from using mTCP I regret that
> and I encourage you to question your assumption that without source
> code it is not "clean" or "good" enough for you.

I regret that you've released it as non-free software.  I wonder what
do you want to achieve, besides power over the users of your package.
You are denying them a freedom they deserve to have, that is, they
deserve to control their computing, rather than begging to a
particular person or entity for changes they need or want made into
the package.  I'd sincerely prefer that you hadn't released your
package at all and I urge people --- that value their freedom --- to
ignore the current version and fork the latest free version and
maintain it that way, so FreeDOS users can regain their freedom and
control when doing their networking.

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-important.html


-- 
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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Steve Nickolas]

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015, Michael Brutman wrote:

> I am not denying anybody their freedom.  People can choose to use what they
> want.  I have given people a great set of networking tools that make
> FreeDOS and other flavors of DOS more useful.  You have ranted like a
> little child because this year the gift was not quite as large as you
> expected.  Shame on you.

If it makes a difference, the guy sounds almost religiously fundamentalist 
about the whole thing... and has a "gnu.org" e-mail address to boot, so 
prolly *is*...

-uso.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Mercury Thirteen]

On 9/7/2015 6:37 PM, Michael Brutman wrote:

...
I think that whether it is open source or not it is still a great 
solution for DOS networking.  If the lack of source code prevents you 
from using mTCP I regret that and I encourage you to question your 
assumption that without source code it is not "clean" or "good" enough 
for you.

...


Well, Richard Stallman would throw a FIT.

However... those of us not /quite/ so zealous  see nothing wrong with 
it. Source code is nice, but the lack thereof doesn't spell the end of 
the world.
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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Maarten Vermeulen]

Hello all,

I just picked a random email,  but thanks for all the answers. :p

Op 7 sep. 2015 22:37 schreef "Barry de Graaff" :
>
> > Why  is it important to have it open source?
>
> Because:
>
> 1. I do read the source, and also compare between versions the changes so
I can decide if I need/want the new changes.
>
> 2. I actually change software from time to time and also merge my changes
upstream
>
> 3. I prefer free-software out of principle

So it is networking and we want to use it for freedos and that's why it
needs to be open source? Is that it? :)

Maarten
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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Michael Brutman]

Hi,

Please don't panic.  There are better things to worry about.  Just to
clarify:

- The source for the 2013-05-23 version is available and always will be.
That particular release was probably near perfect because very few people
ever ask for more features or send bug reports.

- The source for my latest version is not released yet.  That makes the
current version effectively "closed source" for now.  As the website says
"Note: The current version of mTCP is not available as open source yet."
 I'd like to emphasize that last word.  Calling it a "license change" is
probably too strong; it is not like I have announced a licensing change or
said that I will never release source again.

- The current version adds two new programs and fixes a bunch of small bugs
in the previous versions, only one of which is serious.  (The FTP server
forgets to remove the Ctrl-Break handler on exit so you might have an
unstable system after exiting the server.  Please upgrade to the current
version or reboot after running the older versions of FTP server.)

- The current source code is actually much better structured in the current
version than in the previous versions.  A lot of the
restructuring/refactoring was to make bugs like the one described above
less likely.  Some of the restructuring was required to allow pkttool to
use the lowest level packet driver interface code.

- Rest assured that I have not lost interest in mTCP.  You can see from the
new pkttool program that I'm starting to inch toward IPv6 support.  The
HTTP server was a major piece of work too.  The rewrite of the
documentation was very time consuming but it should make mTCP much more
usable.  (If you have not seen it please look at the PDF file:
http://www.brutman.com/mTCP/mTCP_2015-07-05.pdf )  I have many ideas for
enhancements and new programs.  I still want your bug reports and your
feature enhancements.  And I am still actively helping people who email me
for help.

- mTCP programs are generally smaller, more standards compliant, more
stable, and far faster than equivalent programs using other TCP/IP stacks.
I put a great deal of work into making sure that stays true from release to
release.  mTCP programs work on all machines, 16 or 32 bits.  mTCP is
actively maintained.  I think that whether it is open source or not it is
still a great solution for DOS networking.  If the lack of source code
prevents you from using mTCP I regret that and I encourage you to question
your assumption that without source code it is not "clean" or "good" enough
for you.



Mike
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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Louis Santillan]

Sadly, it would mean that specific version of mTCP could not be included in FD.

On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:31 PM, Mercury Thirteen
 wrote:
>
>
> On 9/7/2015 6:37 PM, Michael Brutman wrote:
>
> ...
> I think that whether it is open source or not it is still a great solution
> for DOS networking.  If the lack of source code prevents you from using mTCP
> I regret that and I encourage you to question your assumption that without
> source code it is not "clean" or "good" enough for you.
> ...
>
>
> Well, Richard Stallman would throw a FIT.
>
> However... those of us not quite so zealous  see nothing wrong with it.
> Source code is nice, but the lack thereof doesn't spell the end of the
> world.
>
> --
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Mercury Thirteen]

No, I understand that. I mean nothing would prevent a user from manually 
utilizing it in the future if they deem it necessary.

On 9/7/2015 11:33 PM, Louis Santillan wrote:
> Sadly, it would mean that specific version of mTCP could not be included in 
> FD.
>
> On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:31 PM, Mercury Thirteen
>  wrote:
>>
>> On 9/7/2015 6:37 PM, Michael Brutman wrote:
>>
>> ...
>> I think that whether it is open source or not it is still a great solution
>> for DOS networking.  If the lack of source code prevents you from using mTCP
>> I regret that and I encourage you to question your assumption that without
>> source code it is not "clean" or "good" enough for you.
>> ...
>>
>>
>> Well, Richard Stallman would throw a FIT.
>>
>> However... those of us not quite so zealous  see nothing wrong with it.
>> Source code is nice, but the lack thereof doesn't spell the end of the
>> world.
>>
>> --
>>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Barry de Graaff]

Hello Mike,
Thanks for your clarification, it makes things clear for me, and I imagine it 
will also be read by a lot of people browsing thru the mail archive.
It's great to hear you also work towards ipv6! I was meaning to ask you about 
that for some time.

For those not knowing mTCP is more that just a TCP stack it basically is a 
complete networking toolkit for DOS that include an IRC client,Telnet client 
and FTP client and much more...
Quoting:- mTCP programs are generally smaller, more standards compliant, more 
stable, and far faster than equivalent programs using other TCP/IP stacks.  
I can only say that the above statement is very true, and besides that mTCP has 
good documentation and how-to's. It just works! Also looking at the code, I 
find it a small miracle!
Thats why I cared to start this discussion, I hope we will see a source release 
soon, so it can also end up in freedos.
Thanks you all for your comments,
Barry

http://www.barrydegraaff.tk/vc

Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 15:37:18 -0700
From: mbbrut...@brutman.com
To: freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

Hi,
Please don't panic.  There are better things to worry about.  Just to clarify:
- The source for the 2013-05-23 version is available and always will be.  That 
particular release was probably near perfect because very few people ever ask 
for more features or send bug reports.
- The source for my latest version is not released yet.  That makes the current 
version effectively "closed source" for now.  As the website says "Note: The 
current version of mTCP is not available as open source yet."  I'd like to 
emphasize that last word.  Calling it a "license change" is probably too 
strong; it is not like I have announced a licensing change or said that I will 
never release source again.
- The current version adds two new programs and fixes a bunch of small bugs in 
the previous versions, only one of which is serious.  (The FTP server forgets 
to remove the Ctrl-Break handler on exit so you might have an unstable system 
after exiting the server.  Please upgrade to the current version or reboot 
after running the older versions of FTP server.)
- The current source code is actually much better structured in the current 
version than in the previous versions.  A lot of the restructuring/refactoring 
was to make bugs like the one described above less likely.  Some of the 
restructuring was required to allow pkttool to use the lowest level packet 
driver interface code.
- Rest assured that I have not lost interest in mTCP.  You can see from the new 
pkttool program that I'm starting to inch toward IPv6 support.  The HTTP server 
was a major piece of work too.  The rewrite of the documentation was very time 
consuming but it should make mTCP much more usable.  (If you have not seen it 
please look at the PDF file: http://www.brutman.com/mTCP/mTCP_2015-07-05.pdf )  
I have many ideas for enhancements and new programs.  I still want your bug 
reports and your feature enhancements.  And I am still actively helping people 
who email me for help.
- mTCP programs are generally smaller, more standards compliant, more stable, 
and far faster than equivalent programs using other TCP/IP stacks.  I put a 
great deal of work into making sure that stays true from release to release.  
mTCP programs work on all machines, 16 or 32 bits.  mTCP is actively 
maintained.  I think that whether it is open source or not it is still a great 
solution for DOS networking.  If the lack of source code prevents you from 
using mTCP I regret that and I encourage you to question your assumption that 
without source code it is not "clean" or "good" enough for you.


Mike

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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Ralf Quint]

On 9/7/2015 1:36 PM, Barry de Graaff wrote:

> Why  is it important to have it open source?
Because:
1. I do read the source, and also compare between versions the changes so I can 
decide if I need/want the new changes.
2. I actually change software from time to time and also merge my changes 
upstream
3. I prefer free-software out of principle
WATTCP may work for me, but is that actively maintained/updated?

No, WATTCP is not maintained anymore for a long time. That said, the (so 
far) last Open Source version of mTCP is in fact still Oen Source, so 
you can do all of the above just fine.
And Michael has going by his words on his web site not excluded that 
mTCP might become Open Source in later versions again, he just got fed 
up with people nagging...


That said, as far as I am concerned, mTCP is the better (performing) 
option, be it Open Source or not.


Ralf


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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[JAYDEN CHARBONNEAU]

I've never been able to get a working DOS network.I can't even get my
FreeDOS laptop to 'talk' to my windows desktop.

On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 2:10 PM, Ralf Quint  wrote:

> On 9/7/2015 1:36 PM, Barry de Graaff wrote:
>
> > Why  is it important to have it open source?
>
> Because:
>
> 1. I do read the source, and also compare between versions the changes so I 
> can decide if I need/want the new changes.
>
> 2. I actually change software from time to time and also merge my changes 
> upstream
>
> 3. I prefer free-software out of principle
>
> WATTCP may work for me, but is that actively maintained/updated?
>
>
> No, WATTCP is not maintained anymore for a long time. That said, the (so
> far) last Open Source version of mTCP is in fact still Oen Source, so you
> can do all of the above just fine.
> And Michael has going by his words on his web site not excluded that mTCP
> might become Open Source in later versions again, he just got fed up with
> people nagging...
>
> That said, as far as I am concerned, mTCP is the better (performing)
> option, be it Open Source or not.
>
> Ralf
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Steve Nickolas]

On Mon, 7 Sep 2015, Maarten Vermeulen wrote:


Hi,

My question here is why do you want that. I don't want to be irritating
(which I probably am now).

Why  is it important to have it open source?


It's FreeDOS, after all.  Can't include stuff that isn't Free®™© ;)

However, it's my personal opinion that we've had an established open 
source TCP stack for years - it's called WatTCP - and so mTCP going closed 
isn't that big a loss.


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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Barry de Graaff]

> Why  is it important to have it open source?Because:1. I do read the source, 
> and also compare between versions the changes so I can decide if I need/want 
> the new changes.2. I actually change software from time to time and also 
> merge my changes upstream3. I prefer free-software out of principle
WATTCP may work for me, but is that actively maintained/updated?


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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro]

Hello, Maarten!

Em Mon, 7 Sep 2015 20:40:56 +0200
Maarten Vermeulen  escreveu:

> Why is it important to have it open source?

Please, see "Why we must insist on Free Software"[0] and "Why 'Open
Source' misses the point of Free Software"[1].


Just my 2 cents.


Footnotes:
[0] http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-important.html
[1] http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html


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Re: [Freedos-devel] mTCP/IP stack by M Brutman is now closed source

[Eric Auer]

Hi Maarten, Barry, Bruno and of course Michael,

> Why  is it important to have it open source?

While I have not read this code either, nor contributed
to it, I generally appreciate a possibility to read it.

In that sense, it is a pity that code currently is not
open. I am sure there would be licenses which suit the
interests of the author, the users and people who are
interested in the source code :-)

I wonder how large the differences between the last open
source version and the current version are and what the
reasons for the license change were.

In the past, even the best software has encountered the
situation that maintainers lost time or interest to keep
tending to the software. In such situations, open source
allows others to pick up maintenance, be it for smallish
patches or be it for completely new extended features :-)

Regards, Eric

>> ... Unfortunately the latest version, is no longer open-source :
>> http://www.brutman.com/mTCP/ For developers
>>
>> (Note: The current version of mTCP is not available as open source yet.
>> If you are interested in working with the mTCP source code the
>> 2013-05-23 version is available to use.)
>>
>> I spoke to Michael on an IRC channel, also I spoke to other people
>> about it, so far only 2 people made a comment about this to Michael.
>> Michael states he had no code contribution for 5 years, some other
>> people claimed that Michael has been asked for support a lot ...



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