date:20170426

Oooh.  I'm jealous!  I absolutely love the feeling of a newly wiped and 
reinstalled OS.  I do it on my phone all the time ... it would be unwise for me 
to do it on my main 'puter.  But I do it on my laptop sporadically just to get 
that new-puter feelz.

On 04/26/2017 11:32 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:
> 
> Hi, everybody, 
> 
> When I woke my computer up this morning it had forgotten everything it ever 
> knew about me.  Consequently, the computer will not be a reliable means of 
> communication for the foreseeable future.  I will try to monitor webmail, but 
> please use phone for any important or timely communication. 
> 
> Sorry about this. 
> 
> Nick Thompson
> PS: Computer trouble, so receiving mail by webmail only.  Please reply to 
> nickthomp...@earthlink.net

-- 
☣ glen

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe's Sugar Tax


Perhaps it is elitist to even be questioning any of this?

If you have the time/energy/resources to worry about the impact of 
sugary drinks on the general population, that might be elitist, no 
matter how you land/vote on the topic?


Here is an interesting article on the question of elitism from 2008 by 
Tom Alderman:


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-alderman/whats-an-elitist-anyway_b_100678.html


On 4/26/17 3:54 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:


Joe writes:

“It is Elitist to be in favor of something that promotes general health?”

It is elitist to burden your neighbors’ pocketbook by pushing for law 
to promote general health AND is it is elitist to not care about your 
neighbors’ health!  Damned elitists!


Marcus




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Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe's Sugar Tax

Joe writes:

"It is Elitist to be in favor of something that promotes general health?"

It is elitist to burden your neighbors' pocketbook by pushing for law to 
promote general health AND is it is elitist to not care about your neighbors' 
health!  Damned elitists!

Marcus

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe's Sugar Tax


No.  It's a common refrain amongst those who oppose taxes like this:

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin_tax#Opposition

On 04/26/2017 02:14 PM, Owen Densmore wrote:
> Am I the only one who smells Elitist? After all, it won't impact US!


-- 
☣ glen


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe's Sugar Tax

2017-04-26 Thread Owen Densmore

Am I the only one who smells Elitist? After all, it won't impact US!

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[FRIAM] Fwd: [ddj] new api for mapping the geography of global news coverage

Perhaps of interest, especially to news researchers and folks interested in
tapping Google's Big Query tools.

TJ


Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
Society of Professional Journalists 
*Check out It's The People's Data
*
http://www.jtjohnson.com   t...@jtjohnson.com


-- Forwarded message --
From: kalev leetaru 
Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:53 AM
Subject: [ddj] new api for mapping the geography of global news coverage
To: "List about Data Driven Journalism and Open Data in Journalism." <
data-driven-journal...@lists.okfn.org>


Apologies for cross-posting - thought many on this list might find of great
interest and utility the new GDELT mapping API for creating point, ADM1 and
country-level maps of the geography of global news coverage from nearly all
countries worldwide in 65 languages over the last 24 hours, updating every
15 minutes. The API, which is fully free and open, generates both instant
embeddable browser-based interactive maps and GeoJSON optimized for use
with platforms like Carto.

http://blog.gdeltproject.org/gdelt-geo-2-0-api-debuts/

Specify any keyword or phrase and search the English machine translations
of all content monitored in those 65 languages, allowing you to search
across languages. For each keyword, the system compiles a list of all
locations (down to the resolution of a hilltop in many areas) that were
found within a sentence or two of your keyword and constructs a map showing
the locations mentioned most frequently in context with your search. You
can also map specific languages, domains, by tone, etc.

Perhaps most uniquely, we are releasing a set of experimental maps that
apply the deep learning image categorization we perform on global news
imagery each day (more than a quarter billion images processed last year)
and let you search by 10,000 labels of objects and activities depicted in
the image, the OCR'd text in more than 80 languages depicted in the image,
all of the text contained in the image file's metadata fields, the textual
caption of the image as it appeared in each article, and the result of a
Google Images reverse search that compiles a list of all of the captions
used for that image anywhere it was found on the open web and assigns
several million topical labels.

As but one simple, but extremely powerful example - one of our research
threads revolves around how violence is depicted across the world and the
differing levels of normative baselines (for example, here in the US ISIS
beheadings are typically shown with a "before" image or a heavily pixelated
image, whereas in the presses of certain other countries the raw graphic
image is frequently shown; similarly in the US we rarely see imagery of
drowned refugees with the notable exception of Alan Kurdi, while the
presses of other countries run graphic imagery of those who perish on a
more frequent basis). Understanding how violence is depicted in the presses
of the world and how those baselines are changing offers a lot of insight
into the question of desensitization and the communication of crises.

The new API allows you to create such a map in just a few seconds and have
it live update every 15 minutes - here is one such example map that
displays up to five images from the domestic press of each country over the
last 24 hours that were determined to potentially depict some sense of
"violence" (click on each country to see the images from its local press).
(WARNING: many of these images are very disturbing). While you will see
some errors here and there, overall this gives a very visceral sense of the
differences in depiction of violence throughout the world.

http://api.gdeltproject.org/api/v2/geo/geo?query=imagetag:
%22safesearchviolence%22=imagesourcecountry=imagehtml

Similarly, here is a map of rubble, destruction, flooding and fire that we
are using in a series of forthcoming projects to ground truth the severity
of natural disasters as they occur in realtime (note that this particular
map below shows the imagery of damage FROM the press of that country, which
may reflect events in other countries as well):

http://api.gdeltproject.org/api/v2/geo/geo?query=(
imagetag:%22rubble%22%20OR%20imagetag:%22demolition%22%
20OR%20imagetag:%22disaster%22%20OR%20imagetag:%22earthquake%22%20OR%
20imagetag:%22flood%22%20OR%20imagetag:%22fire%22)=
imagesourcecountry=imagehtml


Looking at text, you can map a particular news outlet like AllAfrica:

http://api.gdeltproject.org/api/v2/geo/geo?query=domain:allafrica.com

Or source language like Chinese:

http://api.gdeltproject.org/api/v2/geo/geo?query=sourcelang:chinese

Or the phrase "Donald Trump", aggregated to the country

Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe's Sugar Tax

Got it.  You have to buy the chemical, not the sweetener.

I think there's plenty for all of us to groom, plenty.
T.



Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
Society of Professional Journalists 
*Check out It's The People's Data
*
http://www.jtjohnson.com   t...@jtjohnson.com


On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 1:07 PM, Steven A Smith  wrote:

>
> Tom -
>
> Sugar is the "fuel" for the symbiotic culture of bacteria and yeast
> (SCOBY) that metabolizes into mostly acetic acid (vinegar) and alcohol with
> small residual amounts of sugar (if you stop the brew early).  The
> macrobiotics are presumed to keep a healthy/happy gut flora/fauna and keep
> the immune system stimulated.
>
> My experience with my own brew so far is that pure (cane) sugar is
> preferred because it is most predictable...  I think honey and fruit juices
> are *least* preferred because of the unpredictability (from other
> yeast/bacteria contamination).   I haven't really experimented with my
> brewing methods enough to know.  Many choose to add Ginger, Honey, Fruit
> Juice *after* the brew for enhanced flavor.  I prefer mine straight up, it
> isn't a bad beer (sans significant alcohol) for me.
>
> Stevia (as you probably know) is just a hyper-sweet substance that fools
> the taste-buds but not the metabolism of humans nor SCOBYs.
>
> Meanwhile...   I applaud your trying to help groom the legislative and
> public discourse properties of our fine city as I do those who are trying
> to groom the social/consumerist culture away from obviously harmful things
> like high-sugar drinks and foodstuffs.
>
> - Steve
> -
>
> Steve:
> Have you looked into Stevia?
> http://www.webmd.com/diet/stevia-sugar-substitutes#1-2
>
> TJ
>
>
> 
> Tom Johnson
> Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
> 505.577.6482 <(505)%20577-6482>(c)
> 505.473.9646 <(505)%20473-9646>(h)
> Society of Professional Journalists 
> *Check out It's The People's Data
> *
> http://www.jtjohnson.com   t...@jtjohnson.com
> 
>
> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Steven A Smith  wrote:
>
>> I think Sugar is the new Tobacco on many fronts...  it WILL fall
>> (somewhat), albeit slowly.  And we will be able to get it without the tax
>> on the Reservation from a drive-through window?
>>
>> Meanwhile I need to start a fresh batch of Kombucha and if the *only*
>> reliable source of sugar is (as recommended) pure, refined, white sugar,
>> then I'll pay the tax (or ask my RMJ seeking friends to pick some bootleg
>> white cane sugar up at a dispensary on the Colorado border).
>>
>> Or maybe I need to understand better why I can't get good results from
>> less refined sugars or (OMG!) Honey.   Or move on back to probiotics based
>> on things I can grow myself (saurkraut, kimchee, kefir, etc.)?
>>
>> I don't like (Gub'Mint) regulation on principle but it might actually be
>> a reductio-ad-absurdum argument against any/all of our myriad "well laid
>> plans" brought to us by industry and commerce?
>>
>> A favorite duality:  "A conspiracy theory, or just a good business plan?"
>>
>> Neo-Retro-Techno-Luddite,
>>
>>  - Steve
>>
>> On 4/26/17 12:31 PM, Tom Johnson wrote:
>>
>> I'm wondering this morning, if the nation seems to have accepted the fact
>> that the federal government can regulate vehicle mileage,  require seat
>> belt installation, testing of drugs for public consumption, etc., how come
>> it can't regulate sugar (and sodium?) in food and drink?  Could it be the
>> sugar lobby is stronger than car manufactures and Big Pharma?
>>
>> TJ
>>
>>
>> 
>> Tom Johnson
>> Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
>> 505.577.6482 <%28505%29%20577-6482>(c)
>>   505.473.9646 <%28505%29%20473-9646>(h)
>> Society of Professional Journalists 
>> *Check out It's The People's Data
>> *
>> http://www.jtjohnson.com   t...@jtjohnson.com
>> 
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 12:02 PM, George Duncan 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Much as I agree with Tom's analysis and wish for a better process for
>>> public policy decision making (hey that was my career at Carnegie Mellon!),
>>> the issue here for our own voting is whether we better off if this
>>> initiative passes. I vote yes. Indeed I have already voted yes.
>>>
>>> Also I cannot believe that a win for no will

Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe's Sugar Tax

Steve:
Have you looked into Stevia?
http://www.webmd.com/diet/stevia-sugar-substitutes#1-2

TJ



Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
Society of Professional Journalists 
*Check out It's The People's Data
*
http://www.jtjohnson.com   t...@jtjohnson.com


On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Steven A Smith  wrote:

> I think Sugar is the new Tobacco on many fronts...  it WILL fall
> (somewhat), albeit slowly.  And we will be able to get it without the tax
> on the Reservation from a drive-through window?
>
> Meanwhile I need to start a fresh batch of Kombucha and if the *only*
> reliable source of sugar is (as recommended) pure, refined, white sugar,
> then I'll pay the tax (or ask my RMJ seeking friends to pick some bootleg
> white cane sugar up at a dispensary on the Colorado border).
>
> Or maybe I need to understand better why I can't get good results from
> less refined sugars or (OMG!) Honey.   Or move on back to probiotics based
> on things I can grow myself (saurkraut, kimchee, kefir, etc.)?
>
> I don't like (Gub'Mint) regulation on principle but it might actually be a
> reductio-ad-absurdum argument against any/all of our myriad "well laid
> plans" brought to us by industry and commerce?
>
> A favorite duality:  "A conspiracy theory, or just a good business plan?"
>
> Neo-Retro-Techno-Luddite,
>
>  - Steve
>
> On 4/26/17 12:31 PM, Tom Johnson wrote:
>
> I'm wondering this morning, if the nation seems to have accepted the fact
> that the federal government can regulate vehicle mileage,  require seat
> belt installation, testing of drugs for public consumption, etc., how come
> it can't regulate sugar (and sodium?) in food and drink?  Could it be the
> sugar lobby is stronger than car manufactures and Big Pharma?
>
> TJ
>
>
> 
> Tom Johnson
> Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
> 505.577.6482 <(505)%20577-6482>(c)
> 505.473.9646 <(505)%20473-9646>(h)
> Society of Professional Journalists 
> *Check out It's The People's Data
> *
> http://www.jtjohnson.com   t...@jtjohnson.com
> 
>
> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 12:02 PM, George Duncan 
> wrote:
>
>> Much as I agree with Tom's analysis and wish for a better process for
>> public policy decision making (hey that was my career at Carnegie Mellon!),
>> the issue here for our own voting is whether we better off if this
>> initiative passes. I vote yes. Indeed I have already voted yes.
>>
>> Also I cannot believe that a win for no will convince people towards
>> quality decision making...but rather that major corporate money must win in
>> the public arena.
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 11:42 AM glen ☣  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> We have a lot of data on whether sin taxes do or don't work.  And that
>>> data is colored/interpreted by everyone who sees it, like all data.
>>>
>>> And that brings me to my problem with Tom's argument.  We can focus on
>>> this part:
>>>
>>>   "Voting on the measure is also a vote for or against good social
>>> science research, good public policy and administration, and full
>>> transparency of the people’s data."
>>>
>>> We've been over and over in several threads (that I'm sure seemed
>>> hijacked by the more linear amongst us) about _induction_ and the validity
>>> or soundness of the predicates it leads to.  Way back when I worked at a
>>> healthcare informatics company, "evidence-based" was all the rage.  Then a
>>> (small) group of debunkers finally realized and advocated a move from the
>>> concept of "evidence-based" to "science-based" (
>>> https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/about-science-based-medicine/).  Add
>>> to that that many of my colleagues in the social sciences tout
>>> evidence-based or science-based policy.
>>>
>>> I have some very deep reservations against such, with the same _flavor_
>>> as my objection to the idea that government should/can be run like a
>>> business.  (Part of the rhetoric in favor of Trump.)  Government is not,
>>> inherently, a scientific enterprise.  It's an _engineering_ enterprise.
>>> And engineers don't really care about reality as it is.  They care about
>>> reality as they intend it to be.  Sure, good engineers take the intitial
>>> conditions into account.  But whether the initial conditions have us on
>>> earth or mars doesn't matter that much.  What matters is that we want to
>>> _go_ to Proxima Centauri.
>>>
>>> So, while I agree with the letter of the sentence above, I may disagree
>>> with the implication.
>>>
>>> FWIW, were

Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe's Sugar Tax

I’m all for requiring health insurance, but how about we require intensive 
exercise too?   Use red blood cell counts or other indicators to prove it was 
done.   Again, an android or iPhone with some suitable sensors could track 
results.   Pose it as tax break instead of a penalty.   Then people can get 
their high.  I know I want mine.  With the productivity boost, we could just 
pay for those kiddies with our income taxes.

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Tom Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 12:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Cc: Sherry Kelsey 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe's Sugar Tax

I'm wondering this morning, if the nation seems to have accepted the fact that 
the federal government can regulate vehicle mileage,  require seat belt 
installation, testing of drugs for public consumption, etc., how come it can't 
regulate sugar (and sodium?) in food and drink?  Could it be the sugar lobby is 
stronger than car manufactures and Big Pharma?

TJ

Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
Society of Professional Journalists
Check out It's The People's 
Data
http://www.jtjohnson.com   
t...@jtjohnson.com

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 12:02 PM, George Duncan 
> wrote:
Much as I agree with Tom's analysis and wish for a better process for public 
policy decision making (hey that was my career at Carnegie Mellon!), the issue 
here for our own voting is whether we better off if this initiative passes. I 
vote yes. Indeed I have already voted yes.

Also I cannot believe that a win for no will convince people towards quality 
decision making...but rather that major corporate money must win in the public 
arena.

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 11:42 AM glen ☣ 
> wrote:

We have a lot of data on whether sin taxes do or don't work.  And that data is 
colored/interpreted by everyone who sees it, like all data.

And that brings me to my problem with Tom's argument.  We can focus on this 
part:

  "Voting on the measure is also a vote for or against good social science 
research, good public policy and administration, and full transparency of the 
people’s data."

We've been over and over in several threads (that I'm sure seemed hijacked by 
the more linear amongst us) about _induction_ and the validity or soundness of 
the predicates it leads to.  Way back when I worked at a healthcare informatics 
company, "evidence-based" was all the rage.  Then a (small) group of debunkers 
finally realized and advocated a move from the concept of "evidence-based" to 
"science-based" 
(https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/about-science-based-medicine/).  Add to that 
that many of my colleagues in the social sciences tout evidence-based or 
science-based policy.

I have some very deep reservations against such, with the same _flavor_ as my 
objection to the idea that government should/can be run like a business.  (Part 
of the rhetoric in favor of Trump.)  Government is not, inherently, a 
scientific enterprise.  It's an _engineering_ enterprise.  And engineers don't 
really care about reality as it is.  They care about reality as they intend it 
to be.  Sure, good engineers take the intitial conditions into account.  But 
whether the initial conditions have us on earth or mars doesn't matter that 
much.  What matters is that we want to _go_ to Proxima Centauri.

So, while I agree with the letter of the sentence above, I may disagree with 
the implication.

FWIW, were I still in Santa Fe, I'd vote "yes".

On 04/26/2017 09:57 AM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
> I agree anecdotally residents of NM need help with education and health.
> I am skeptical a tax on basically fake food,s and treats is a helpful way
> to do that though.
> Postive programs and tools  might help more than yet another tax possibly
> can.

--
☣ glen

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
--
George Duncan
Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
georgeduncanart.com
See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram
Land: (505) 983-6895
Mobile: (505) 469-4671

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and 
luminous chaos.

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later.

Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe's Sugar Tax

I think Sugar is the new Tobacco on many fronts...  it WILL fall 
(somewhat), albeit slowly.  And we will be able to get it without the 
tax on the Reservation from a drive-through window?

Meanwhile I need to start a fresh batch of Kombucha and if the *only* 
reliable source of sugar is (as recommended) pure, refined, white sugar, 
then I'll pay the tax (or ask my RMJ seeking friends to pick some 
bootleg white cane sugar up at a dispensary on the Colorado border).

Or maybe I need to understand better why I can't get good results from 
less refined sugars or (OMG!) Honey.   Or move on back to probiotics 
based on things I can grow myself (saurkraut, kimchee, kefir, etc.)?

I don't like (Gub'Mint) regulation on principle but it might actually be 
a reductio-ad-absurdum argument against any/all of our myriad "well laid 
plans" brought to us by industry and commerce?

A favorite duality:  "A conspiracy theory, or just a good business plan?"

Neo-Retro-Techno-Luddite,

 - Steve

On 4/26/17 12:31 PM, Tom Johnson wrote:
I'm wondering this morning, if the nation seems to have accepted the 
fact that the federal government can regulate vehicle mileage, 
//require seat belt installation, testing of drugs for public 
consumption, etc., how come it can't regulate sugar (and sodium?) in 
food and drink?  Could it be the sugar lobby is stronger than car 
manufactures and Big Pharma?

TJ

Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c)   505.473.9646(h)
Society of Professional Journalists 
*Check out It's The People's Data 
*
http://www.jtjohnson.com  t...@jtjohnson.com 

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 12:02 PM, George Duncan > wrote:

Much as I agree with Tom's analysis and wish for a better process
for public policy decision making (hey that was my career at
Carnegie Mellon!), the issue here for our own voting is whether we
better off if this initiative passes. I vote yes. Indeed I have
already voted yes.

Also I cannot believe that a win for no will convince people
towards quality decision making...but rather that major corporate
money must win in the public arena.

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 11:42 AM glen ☣ > wrote:

We have a lot of data on whether sin taxes do or don't work. 
And that data is colored/interpreted by everyone who sees it,

like all data.

And that brings me to my problem with Tom's argument.  We can
focus on this part:

  "Voting on the measure is also a vote for or against good
social science research, good public policy and
administration, and full transparency of the people’s data."

We've been over and over in several threads (that I'm sure
seemed hijacked by the more linear amongst us) about
_induction_ and the validity or soundness of the predicates it
leads to.  Way back when I worked at a healthcare informatics
company, "evidence-based" was all the rage.  Then a (small)
group of debunkers finally realized and advocated a move from
the concept of "evidence-based" to "science-based"
(https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/about-science-based-medicine/
).
Add to that that many of my colleagues in the social sciences
tout evidence-based or science-based policy.

I have some very deep reservations against such, with the same
_flavor_ as my objection to the idea that government
should/can be run like a business.  (Part of the rhetoric in
favor of Trump.)  Government is not, inherently, a scientific
enterprise.  It's an _engineering_ enterprise.  And engineers
don't really care about reality as it is.  They care about
reality as they intend it to be.  Sure, good engineers take
the intitial conditions into account.  But whether the initial
conditions have us on earth or mars doesn't matter that much. 
What matters is that we want to _go_ to Proxima Centauri.

So, while I agree with the letter of the sentence above, I may
disagree with the implication.

FWIW, were I still in Santa Fe, I'd vote "yes".

On 04/26/2017 09:57 AM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
> I agree anecdotally residents of NM need help with education
and health.
> I am skeptical a tax on basically fake food,s and treats is
a helpful way
> to do that though.
> Postive programs and tools  might help more than yet another
tax possibly
> can.

Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe's Sugar Tax

I'm wondering this morning, if the nation seems to have accepted the fact
that the federal government can regulate vehicle mileage,  require seat
belt installation, testing of drugs for public consumption, etc., how come
it can't regulate sugar (and sodium?) in food and drink?  Could it be the
sugar lobby is stronger than car manufactures and Big Pharma?

TJ



Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
Society of Professional Journalists 
*Check out It's The People's Data
*
http://www.jtjohnson.com   t...@jtjohnson.com


On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 12:02 PM, George Duncan  wrote:

> Much as I agree with Tom's analysis and wish for a better process for
> public policy decision making (hey that was my career at Carnegie Mellon!),
> the issue here for our own voting is whether we better off if this
> initiative passes. I vote yes. Indeed I have already voted yes.
>
> Also I cannot believe that a win for no will convince people towards
> quality decision making...but rather that major corporate money must win in
> the public arena.
>
> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 11:42 AM glen ☣  wrote:
>
>>
>> We have a lot of data on whether sin taxes do or don't work.  And that
>> data is colored/interpreted by everyone who sees it, like all data.
>>
>> And that brings me to my problem with Tom's argument.  We can focus on
>> this part:
>>
>>   "Voting on the measure is also a vote for or against good social
>> science research, good public policy and administration, and full
>> transparency of the people’s data."
>>
>> We've been over and over in several threads (that I'm sure seemed
>> hijacked by the more linear amongst us) about _induction_ and the validity
>> or soundness of the predicates it leads to.  Way back when I worked at a
>> healthcare informatics company, "evidence-based" was all the rage.  Then a
>> (small) group of debunkers finally realized and advocated a move from the
>> concept of "evidence-based" to "science-based" (
>> https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/about-science-based-medicine/).  Add to
>> that that many of my colleagues in the social sciences tout evidence-based
>> or science-based policy.
>>
>> I have some very deep reservations against such, with the same _flavor_
>> as my objection to the idea that government should/can be run like a
>> business.  (Part of the rhetoric in favor of Trump.)  Government is not,
>> inherently, a scientific enterprise.  It's an _engineering_ enterprise.
>> And engineers don't really care about reality as it is.  They care about
>> reality as they intend it to be.  Sure, good engineers take the intitial
>> conditions into account.  But whether the initial conditions have us on
>> earth or mars doesn't matter that much.  What matters is that we want to
>> _go_ to Proxima Centauri.
>>
>> So, while I agree with the letter of the sentence above, I may disagree
>> with the implication.
>>
>> FWIW, were I still in Santa Fe, I'd vote "yes".
>>
>> On 04/26/2017 09:57 AM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
>> > I agree anecdotally residents of NM need help with education and health.
>> > I am skeptical a tax on basically fake food,s and treats is a helpful
>> way
>> > to do that though.
>> > Postive programs and tools  might help more than yet another tax
>> possibly
>> > can.
>>
>>
>> --
>> ☣ glen
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
> --
> George Duncan
> Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
> georgeduncanart.com
> See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram
> Land: (505) 983-6895
> Mobile: (505) 469-4671
>
> My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and
> luminous chaos.
>
> "Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may
> then be a valuable delusion."
> From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.
>
> "It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest
> power." Joanna Macy.
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe

Re: [FRIAM] bah!

I'm suggesting that if the whitelash voters opted to use hypothetical 
technologies that improved their information processing abilities (neural lace, 
gene therapy, advanced drugs), they would come to realize they were just pawns 
in a cynical game of some boring oligarchs and they'd move on to other things.  
They'd update their priors based on evidence.  

Beyond that, there is the problem of people wanting to keep riches for 
themselves.   As an arms dealer, one could offer a low price per unit to the 
masses and a high price to the elite and come out smiling.

Marcus

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 11:46 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] bah!


> < What makes you think the "Whitelash" contingent won't be early 
> adopters (too)? >
>
> I hope they will.   Give them the ability to participate in a more 
> sophisticated economy.
I would like to think (as I think you imply) that a more sophisticated 
"economy" or "ecology" or ??? would resolve the apparent/percieved/real 
differences that have "the rest of us" finding them scary as hell... 
just as *they* are (as often implied and reported) Skeered of Muslims (or at 
least the extremists) and other not-White not-Xtian peoples because *THEY* are 
percieved (by them) to be either fundamentally flawed (Cain vs Abel nonsense, 
Original Sin?... ???) or not living in a _sophisticated enough_ 
economy/ecology...

too many of my Trumpian friends are NOT coming from a position of
*simple* ignorance or oversimplification...  I don't know if I can attribute 
their misperceptions to be as simple as a lack of sophistication?

My Very Good Science Mind (channeling Trump here) has me believing that an 
"arms race" is both inevitable and (therefore) "good" for global evolution of 
complexity/life/??? but my (possibly flawed) Heart has me cringing at the 
thought of an accelerating arms race.

I suppose a thread titled "bah!" can't be bent beyond the pale really...  
though I'm sure I've helped to bend the others a bit much of late.

- Steve
>   
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe 
> at St. John's College to unsubscribe 
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove



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Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe's Sugar Tax

2017-04-26 Thread George Duncan

Much as I agree with Tom's analysis and wish for a better process for
public policy decision making (hey that was my career at Carnegie Mellon!),
the issue here for our own voting is whether we better off if this
initiative passes. I vote yes. Indeed I have already voted yes.

Also I cannot believe that a win for no will convince people towards
quality decision making...but rather that major corporate money must win in
the public arena.

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 11:42 AM glen ☣  wrote:

>
> We have a lot of data on whether sin taxes do or don't work.  And that
> data is colored/interpreted by everyone who sees it, like all data.
>
> And that brings me to my problem with Tom's argument.  We can focus on
> this part:
>
>   "Voting on the measure is also a vote for or against good social science
> research, good public policy and administration, and full transparency of
> the people’s data."
>
> We've been over and over in several threads (that I'm sure seemed hijacked
> by the more linear amongst us) about _induction_ and the validity or
> soundness of the predicates it leads to.  Way back when I worked at a
> healthcare informatics company, "evidence-based" was all the rage.  Then a
> (small) group of debunkers finally realized and advocated a move from the
> concept of "evidence-based" to "science-based" (
> https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/about-science-based-medicine/).  Add to
> that that many of my colleagues in the social sciences tout evidence-based
> or science-based policy.
>
> I have some very deep reservations against such, with the same _flavor_ as
> my objection to the idea that government should/can be run like a
> business.  (Part of the rhetoric in favor of Trump.)  Government is not,
> inherently, a scientific enterprise.  It's an _engineering_ enterprise.
> And engineers don't really care about reality as it is.  They care about
> reality as they intend it to be.  Sure, good engineers take the intitial
> conditions into account.  But whether the initial conditions have us on
> earth or mars doesn't matter that much.  What matters is that we want to
> _go_ to Proxima Centauri.
>
> So, while I agree with the letter of the sentence above, I may disagree
> with the implication.
>
> FWIW, were I still in Santa Fe, I'd vote "yes".
>
> On 04/26/2017 09:57 AM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
> > I agree anecdotally residents of NM need help with education and health.
> > I am skeptical a tax on basically fake food,s and treats is a helpful way
> > to do that though.
> > Postive programs and tools  might help more than yet another tax possibly
> > can.
>
>
> --
> ☣ glen
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

-- 
George Duncan
Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
georgeduncanart.com
See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram
Land: (505) 983-6895
Mobile: (505) 469-4671

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and
luminous chaos.

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may
then be a valuable delusion."
>From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest
power." Joanna Macy.

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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Re: [FRIAM] bah!




< What makes you think the "Whitelash" contingent won't be early adopters (too)? 
>

I hope they will.   Give them the ability to participate in a more 
sophisticated economy.
I would like to think (as I think you imply) that a more sophisticated 
"economy" or "ecology" or ??? would resolve the apparent/percieved/real 
differences that have "the rest of us" finding them scary as hell... 
just as *they* are (as often implied and reported) Skeered of Muslims 
(or at least the extremists) and other not-White not-Xtian peoples 
because *THEY* are percieved (by them) to be either fundamentally flawed 
(Cain vs Abel nonsense, Original Sin?... ???) or not living in a 
_sophisticated enough_ economy/ecology...


too many of my Trumpian friends are NOT coming from a position of 
*simple* ignorance or oversimplification...  I don't know if I can 
attribute their misperceptions to be as simple as a lack of sophistication?


My Very Good Science Mind (channeling Trump here) has me believing that 
an "arms race" is both inevitable and (therefore) "good" for global 
evolution of complexity/life/??? but my (possibly flawed) Heart has me 
cringing at the thought of an accelerating arms race.


I suppose a thread titled "bah!" can't be bent beyond the pale 
really...  though I'm sure I've helped to bend the others a bit much of 
late.


- Steve
  


Marcus




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Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe's Sugar Tax

We have a lot of data on whether sin taxes do or don't work.  And that data is 
colored/interpreted by everyone who sees it, like all data.

And that brings me to my problem with Tom's argument.  We can focus on this 
part:

  "Voting on the measure is also a vote for or against good social science 
research, good public policy and administration, and full transparency of the 
people’s data."

We've been over and over in several threads (that I'm sure seemed hijacked by 
the more linear amongst us) about _induction_ and the validity or soundness of 
the predicates it leads to.  Way back when I worked at a healthcare informatics 
company, "evidence-based" was all the rage.  Then a (small) group of debunkers 
finally realized and advocated a move from the concept of "evidence-based" to 
"science-based" 
(https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/about-science-based-medicine/).  Add to that 
that many of my colleagues in the social sciences tout evidence-based or 
science-based policy.

I have some very deep reservations against such, with the same _flavor_ as my 
objection to the idea that government should/can be run like a business.  (Part 
of the rhetoric in favor of Trump.)  Government is not, inherently, a 
scientific enterprise.  It's an _engineering_ enterprise.  And engineers don't 
really care about reality as it is.  They care about reality as they intend it 
to be.  Sure, good engineers take the intitial conditions into account.  But 
whether the initial conditions have us on earth or mars doesn't matter that 
much.  What matters is that we want to _go_ to Proxima Centauri.

So, while I agree with the letter of the sentence above, I may disagree with 
the implication.

FWIW, were I still in Santa Fe, I'd vote "yes".

On 04/26/2017 09:57 AM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
> I agree anecdotally residents of NM need help with education and health.
> I am skeptical a tax on basically fake food,s and treats is a helpful way
> to do that though.
> Postive programs and tools  might help more than yet another tax possibly
> can.

-- 
☣ glen

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Re: [FRIAM] bah!

< What makes you think the "Whitelash" contingent won't be early adopters 
(too)? >

I hope they will.   Give them the ability to participate in a more 
sophisticated economy.  

Marcus




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Re: [FRIAM] bah!

I am visiting my daughter and her partner in Denver right now who are 
fitness/nutrition enthusiasts.  They are very big into 
Ketosis-triggering diets for brain-healing, obesity reduction and in 
some cases even Diabetes relief.


We talked hours on it last night.  Fascinating.  I'm not quite ready to 
prescribe it to the world, but a Carb-Fast might not be a bad 
experiment.   I have watched two old men go down form AlZ... if ketosis 
can prevent that, I'm game.



On 4/26/17 11:18 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Steve writes:

< In the example at hand of the Sugar Tax,  we have already become
unhealthy, obese (well some of us) refined-sugar addicts partly because
our genome evolved to be greedy for rich sources of energy and partly
because we evolved a consumerist economy which seeks to exploit any and
every significant "weakness" such as this. >

Perhaps what is needed is a better understanding of what knobs to turn.

http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v22/n7/full/nm.4137.html




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Re: [FRIAM] bah!

What makes you think the "Whitelash" contingent won't be early adopters 
(too)?


I was suckered into the MAD principle 40 years ago or more and it took 
at least a decade at LANL (obliquely) helping with that mission (and the 
fall of the Soviet Union and being in the semi-personal presence of the 
Dali Lama and ???) for me to realize that it MAD might have just been 
exactly what it sounded like a "mad" strategy?   We have survived it 
(avoided cataclysm in any case) so far... but with US/PRK and gawd knows 
what else (Syria/US/RU? - Israel/Iran) all  squaring off with a 4th 
grade oligarch running one faction and a punk-ass macho oligarch running 
another other and a bona-fide nutcase running the PRK, who knows what is 
next?


Bio/Neuro/Computer tech is in an arms race for sure... maybe such races 
are a given and can't be avoided, so the best plan is to try to come out 
on top?  But I also have the vague feeling of "my headlights are too 
dim, I'd better drive faster and get to my destination as soon as possible!"


I keep hoping for Vernor Vinge's "Bobbling" technology to appear and 
kick us into a "anti-time-race" instead?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marooned_in_Realtime

A great (alternative) take on RK's Technological Singularity 
Utopia/Dystopia.


- Steve



On 4/26/17 11:04 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

I think it is very likely that there will soon be technologies like `neural 
lace', artificial intelligence, and biotech that can change the balance of 
power in fundamental ways.   One might argue it has already happened, and the 
latest whitelash was just the last gasp of an obsolete part of our 
civilization.   That works for me.   Let's go.

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 10:46 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] bah!



Steve writes:

"Who are we becoming?"

In spite of the Steve Bannon's of the world, whatever the hell we want.

Marcus

I have always operated on this tenet myself, but have observed others seeming to fail at that task. 
 Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent" and many other books on propoganda and social 
manipulation (right down to the fine grain of NLP)  seem to suggest that "whatever the hell we 
want"
might be a bit slipperier than I *want* it to be?  Others' failures (as 
observed through my lens) and my own (younger) self's failure both serve as a 
cautionary tale for me on this subject.

I think Glen's weigh in (covered in another post to follow) is
salient.   The "vagueness of self" or more aptly the oxymoron of "(each
hu)man is an Island"?

- Steve


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Re: [FRIAM] bah!

Steve writes:

< In the example at hand of the Sugar Tax,  we have already become 
unhealthy, obese (well some of us) refined-sugar addicts partly because 
our genome evolved to be greedy for rich sources of energy and partly 
because we evolved a consumerist economy which seeks to exploit any and 
every significant "weakness" such as this. >

Perhaps what is needed is a better understanding of what knobs to turn.   

http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v22/n7/full/nm.4137.html




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We don't need a room. We have the References header:
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2822.html >8^D
Well, it was more a tongue-in-cheek reference to "you two are having too
much fun!" than "you need some privacy for this".

I wonder if it's coherent to ask this question? As we've seen in "the arc" thread, the
boundaries of "I" are not very crisp.
I do think the lack of crisp boundaries on "self" is a key point and in
fact, maybe the one I'm trying to make. While my ego responds
positively to Marcus' answer to "who are we becoming" as "whoever the
hell we want", it begs a few questions, maybe most acutely the one you
bring up. What means "we" or "I" in fact?

I recently tried (and failed) to digest the argument made here:

Wiener and Luhmann on feedback: from complexity to sustainability
http://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/abs/10.1108/K-11-2016-0317

at a journal club meeting. The essence of the article is, I think, the
distinction between two types of feedback: that which preserves order locally
vs. that which helps organize the local order in response to the environment.
In either case, our identity is coupled to the environment (more for some than
others, perhaps). And to strive for an ideal decoupling sounds like suicide --
killing one's self.
I do agree that "no man is an Island" though I do tend to prefer to
think of myself as more of an "Archipelago".We are co-evolved with
our landscape and to the extent that we (radically) modify our
landscape, it is not that simple. Marcus' "we become whoever the hell
we want" gets modified (in my mind) to "we become whoever the hell we
do, based on the niches in the landscape we generate by *trying* to be
whoever the hell we think we want to be".

In the example at hand of the Sugar Tax, we have already become
unhealthy, obese (well some of us) refined-sugar addicts partly because
our genome evolved to be greedy for rich sources of energy and partly
because we evolved a consumerist economy which seeks to exploit any and
every significant "weakness" such as this.We have also become
knee-jerk voters who hear a thin but opaque "good idea" and vote for
(Sugar is evil, it is the next Tobacco!) or against ("the legislation is
poorly written/formed/executed" or "I don't want to live in a nanny
state" or ...)

I suppose what saves the monk/hermit from the accusation of suicide is the concept of "being present", in the
news a lot lately with Pirsig's death. The monk chooses one environment and the "networking entrepreneurial
catalyst" chooses another. In this sense, it's less about "who will I become" and more about "what
environment defines me".
And as (poorly?) illustrated above: "what environment do we choose?"
and/or "how do we modify our environment?"

- Steve

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Re: [FRIAM] bah!

I think it is very likely that there will soon be technologies like `neural 
lace', artificial intelligence, and biotech that can change the balance of 
power in fundamental ways.   One might argue it has already happened, and the 
latest whitelash was just the last gasp of an obsolete part of our 
civilization.   That works for me.   Let's go.   

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 10:46 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] bah!

> Steve writes:
>
> "Who are we becoming?"
>
> In spite of the Steve Bannon's of the world, whatever the hell we want.
>
> Marcus
I have always operated on this tenet myself, but have observed others seeming 
to fail at that task.  Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent" and many other books 
on propoganda and social manipulation (right down to the fine grain of NLP)  
seem to suggest that "whatever the hell we want" 
might be a bit slipperier than I *want* it to be?  Others' failures (as 
observed through my lens) and my own (younger) self's failure both serve as a 
cautionary tale for me on this subject.

I think Glen's weigh in (covered in another post to follow) is 
salient.   The "vagueness of self" or more aptly the oxymoron of "(each 
hu)man is an Island"?

- Steve

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Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe's Sugar Tax

2017-04-26 Thread Merle Lefkoff

Me, too, Joe.

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:42 AM, Joe Spinden  wrote:

> I do not disagree with the analysis, but I think the tax would result in a
> lower consumption.  I think this is good from a general health POV, despite
> the fact that the bill is not well-researched nor well-written.
>
> This is probably the only shot SF has to get something like this through.
> So, I vote Yes.
>
> I think it would be easier to revise/resolve the implementation issues
> after it is passed (IF it is passed).  But even if it is a total waste, I
> think it would still result in an overall health benefit.
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> On 4/26/17 10:00 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:
>
> Could we get back to Tom's OP? I for one am a "no" vote for exactly Tom's
> reasons.
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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>
>
> --
> Joe
>
>
> 
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>



-- 
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding
Saint Paul University
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

merlelefk...@gmail.com 
mobile:  (303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2

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Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe's Sugar Tax

2017-04-26 Thread Gillian Densmore

Joe that assumes:
-Martinez finishes her term.
-The next govenor and their cheifs even bother to revist it.
-The bill even passes.
Like I said yesterday part of my concern is it's so vague it can be
purposly smartalcly interperted--because! As I (tried to) point out with
silly examples of fruits or honey.
(I'll own my silly example may not have worked.

I am skeptical yet another tax is what NM needs

I agree anecdotally residents of NM need help with education and health.
I am skeptical a tax on basically fake food,s and treats is a helpful way
to do that though.
Postive programs and tools  might help more than yet another tax possibly
can.
Maybe making the comunity centers feel and be cool to go to somehow.(for
example)
Make those free, but cool, and not terribly maintainted and generally feel
gheto.

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:42 AM, Joe Spinden  wrote:

> I do not disagree with the analysis, but I think the tax would result in a
> lower consumption.  I think this is good from a general health POV, despite
> the fact that the bill is not well-researched nor well-written.
>
> This is probably the only shot SF has to get something like this through.
> So, I vote Yes.
>
> I think it would be easier to revise/resolve the implementation issues
> after it is passed (IF it is passed).  But even if it is a total waste, I
> think it would still result in an overall health benefit.
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> On 4/26/17 10:00 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:
>
> Could we get back to Tom's OP? I for one am a "no" vote for exactly Tom's
> reasons.
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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>
>
> --
> Joe
>
>
> 
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>

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Re: [FRIAM] bah!




Steve writes:

"Who are we becoming?"

In spite of the Steve Bannon's of the world, whatever the hell we want.

Marcus
I have always operated on this tenet myself, but have observed others 
seeming to fail at that task.  Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent" and 
many other books on propoganda and social manipulation (right down to 
the fine grain of NLP)  seem to suggest that "whatever the hell we want" 
might be a bit slipperier than I *want* it to be?  Others' failures (as 
observed through my lens) and my own (younger) self's failure both serve 
as a cautionary tale for me on this subject.


I think Glen's weigh in (covered in another post to follow) is 
salient.   The "vagueness of self" or more aptly the oxymoron of "(each 
hu)man is an Island"?


- Steve


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Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe's Sugar Tax

2017-04-26 Thread Joe Spinden

I do not disagree with the analysis, but I think the tax would result in 
a lower consumption.  I think this is good from a general health POV, 
despite the fact that the bill is not well-researched nor well-written.


This is probably the only shot SF has to get something like this 
through.  So, I vote Yes.


I think it would be easier to revise/resolve the implementation issues 
after it is passed (IF it is passed).  But even if it is a total waste, 
I think it would still result in an overall health benefit.


Joe



On 4/26/17 10:00 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:
Could we get back to Tom's OP? I for one am a "no" vote for exactly 
Tom's reasons.




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--
Joe


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Re: [FRIAM] bah!

We don't need a room.  We have the References header: 
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2822.html >8^D

I wonder if it's coherent to ask this question?  As we've seen in "the arc" 
thread, the boundaries of "I" are not very crisp.  I recently tried (and 
failed) to digest the argument made here:

  Wiener and Luhmann on feedback: from complexity to sustainability
  http://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/abs/10.1108/K-11-2016-0317

at a journal club meeting.  The essence of the article is, I think, the 
distinction between two types of feedback: that which preserves order locally 
vs. that which helps organize the local order in response to the environment.  
In either case, our identity is coupled to the environment (more for some than 
others, perhaps).  And to strive for an ideal decoupling sounds like suicide -- 
killing one's self.

I suppose what saves the monk/hermit from the accusation of suicide is the 
concept of "being present", in the news a lot lately with Pirsig's death.  The 
monk chooses one environment and the "networking entrepreneurial catalyst" 
chooses another.  In this sense, it's less about "who will I become" and more 
about "what environment defines me".

On 04/26/2017 09:07 AM, Steven A Smith wrote:
> It all really plays havoc with traditional ideas of identity. And that is 
> without prosthetics and other tech (rather than Bio) enhancements.
> 
> Who are we becoming?
> 
> The Amish are quoted as saying that when they consider adopting any new tech, 
> their question is "who will I become if I use this (or that) technology?"
> I doubt most of us Ainglish think to stop and ask such questions.   I think 
> this last round of observations here highlight that in an interesting way.

-- 
☣ glen

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Re: [FRIAM] bah!

Steve writes:

"Who are we becoming?"

In spite of the Steve Bannon's of the world, whatever the hell we want.   

Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe's Sugar Tax

On 4/26/17 10:00 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:
Could we get back to Tom's OP? I for one am a "no" vote for exactly
Tom's reasons.

I can't help you with the vote. While I'm a county resident, I am not a
city resident for just such reasons. If I did have a dog in this
particular fight, I would tend to support the "no" vote for roughly
Tom's reasons as well. But then I tend toward voting "no" against most
new legislation and wish I could vote "no" against a lot of old
legislation as well.

My former-libertarian self shudders every time someone tries to
"legislate morality" or "health" or "good clean living"... but my
socially progressive self wishes for a culture/group/society/community
that isn't addicted to high-fructose corn-syrup based artificially
flavored and colored sugary drinks sometimes right from the bottle (I'm
sure you have seen parent fill a baby bottle with soda? I have.)

I also don't believe in "two wrongs make a right", though I have seen
two problems put together in such a way that they seem to constitute a
solution!I see the appeal for the sugar tax to fund preK
education. It feels vaguely like such a situation.

Back to the Bent end of the Thread:

On 4/25/17 4:51 PM, glen ☣ wrote:

I think one of the useful arguments in this vein is the one often lobbed against the concept of a
free market. There is no such thing; and there will/can never be such a thing. So, your question
seems to assume there is a "true" economy by comparison to the "false"
economies (or an upside right one vs an upside down one). What makes you _believe_ ... where lies
your faith in true or upside right economies? Maybe your Utopian homunculus has broken free of its
chains?

This is, I think, different from the "best of all possible world"... It's more
like a rejection of a stable landscape. There are no optima ... or perhaps all optima
are local (in time, space, and sub-graph)?
I agree that my whole thesis includes the assumption/questioning of what
means "free market" or "true economy". At best, these would seem to be
platonic ideals. I also agree (if I parse you correctly) that my
maunderings about right-side-up and up-side-down economies are built on
top of Value Sysems which in the extreme lead to Utopian/Dystopian idealism.

I'm interested in discussing more about the stable landscape and local
optima apprehension of the problem. If you have read this far into my
post (you may be the only one Glen), then maybe you could give an
example of the Sugar Tax in this language?

- Steve

Re: [FRIAM] bah!


Glen/Marcus -

Get a room!  (and finish writing that post-CyberPunk novel you just 
outlined the tech concept for)!


Seriously...  When I first started reading proto-cyberpunk (PK Dick, 
John Brunner, et al) and then the more familiar works of 
Sterling/Gibson/Cadigan/Stephenson, et alia, I didn't believe we would 
get *close* to most of that in my lifetime even though it was 
Day-After-Tomorrow stories rather than a century and one or more 
revolutions in physics (e.g. FTL travel) away.


I delivered my elder daughter to undergrad (pre-med) on the day they 
announced Dolly-the-Clone.   All through her PhD and into her PostDoc in 
Molecular Biology/BioMed she insisted there were "too many unknowns" for 
most of the tech required in these BioHack/Cyberpunk stories until 
CRISPR hit the world.   And modern Epigenetics.  And all the 
contemporary implications of the microbiome on the individual.


It all really plays havoc with traditional ideas of identity. And that 
is without prosthetics and other tech (rather than Bio) enhancements.


Who are we becoming?

The Amish are quoted as saying that when they consider adopting any new 
tech, their question is "who will I become if I use this (or that) 
technology?"I doubt most of us Ainglish think to stop and ask such 
questions.   I think this last round of observations here highlight that 
in an interesting way.


- Steve

On 4/26/17 9:28 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

..with branding like "Angelina" and "Scarlett"

Sent from my iPhone


On Apr 26, 2017, at 9:21 AM, glen ☣  wrote:


I suppose you're right.  Like Apple products, custom flora will only be 
available to rich people in closed-source formats.  The rest of us will hatch 
from DIYBio hacked pods in our grand parents' basements or burned-out 
warehouses, managed by Raspberry Pis and android.


On 04/26/2017 08:02 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
I imagine an iPhone app to tune the microbiome environment with continuous 
monitoring of white blood cells, antibodies, etc.
Machine learning systems to pre-tune baby's immune system.  No risk to mommy 
because she's out running a marathon or whatever.

--
☣ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe's Sugar Tax

2017-04-26 Thread Owen Densmore

Could we get back to Tom's OP? I for one am a "no" vote for exactly Tom's
reasons.

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Re: [FRIAM] bah!

..with branding like "Angelina" and "Scarlett"

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 26, 2017, at 9:21 AM, glen ☣  wrote:
> 
> 
> I suppose you're right.  Like Apple products, custom flora will only be 
> available to rich people in closed-source formats.  The rest of us will hatch 
> from DIYBio hacked pods in our grand parents' basements or burned-out 
> warehouses, managed by Raspberry Pis and android.
> 
>> On 04/26/2017 08:02 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> I imagine an iPhone app to tune the microbiome environment with continuous 
>> monitoring of white blood cells, antibodies, etc.  
>> Machine learning systems to pre-tune baby's immune system.  No risk to mommy 
>> because she's out running a marathon or whatever.
> 
> -- 
> ☣ glen
> 
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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Re: [FRIAM] bah!

I suppose you're right.  Like Apple products, custom flora will only be 
available to rich people in closed-source formats.  The rest of us will hatch 
from DIYBio hacked pods in our grand parents' basements or burned-out 
warehouses, managed by Raspberry Pis and android.

On 04/26/2017 08:02 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I imagine an iPhone app to tune the microbiome environment with continuous 
> monitoring of white blood cells, antibodies, etc.  
> Machine learning systems to pre-tune baby's immune system.  No risk to mommy 
> because she's out running a marathon or whatever.

-- 
☣ glen

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Re: [FRIAM] bah!

I imagine an iPhone app to tune the microbiome environment with continuous 
monitoring of white blood cells, antibodies, etc.  
Machine learning systems to pre-tune baby's immune system.  No risk to mommy 
because she's out running a marathon or whatever.

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of ?glen?
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 8:49 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] bah!

Which cohort would you rather be in?

http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/45505/title/Opinion--A-Mother-s-Microbes/

It'll be simpler to choose before you leave the bag:

  https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/11/opinion/gut-hack.html

On 04/26/2017 07:05 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Perhaps the pro-lifer's could pay mothers of unwanted pregnancies to transfer 
> their work-in-progress to such an incubator, given an adoption contract.   
> The work could be done at Planned Parenthood clinics of course!  A "Win, Win!"
> 
> And with a bag, the infant could get a head start on watching television, and 
> other important activities!
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of ?glen?
> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 7:59 AM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> 
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] bah!
> 
> On 04/25/2017 09:37 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/04/preemies-floating-
>> i
>> n-fluid-filled-bags/524181/
> 
> Very cool!  Being a bastard (http://bastards.org/), myself, I can't help but 
> be jealous of the children of the future.

--
␦glen?

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Re: [FRIAM] bah!

2017-04-26 Thread ┣glen┫

Which cohort would you rather be in?

  
http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/45505/title/Opinion--A-Mother-s-Microbes/

It'll be simpler to choose before you leave the bag:

  https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/11/opinion/gut-hack.html


On 04/26/2017 07:05 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Perhaps the pro-lifer's could pay mothers of unwanted pregnancies to transfer 
> their work-in-progress to such an incubator, given an adoption contract.   
> The work could be done at Planned Parenthood clinics of course!  A "Win, Win!"
> 
> And with a bag, the infant could get a head start on watching television, and 
> other important activities!
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of ?glen?
> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 7:59 AM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] bah!
> 
> On 04/25/2017 09:37 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/04/preemies-floating-i
>> n-fluid-filled-bags/524181/
> 
> Very cool!  Being a bastard (http://bastards.org/), myself, I can't help but 
> be jealous of the children of the future.


-- 
␦glen?


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Re: [FRIAM] bah!