Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

[thompnickson2]

Dave,

 

This is, of course, exactly the opposite of my creation myth in which the slate 
is wiped clean after every generation.  But it would explain a belief system in 
which well-being was the deserved reward of having lived well in a previous 
life.  

 

While I am here, please let me point out that “equal in law” seems a rather 
constrained understanding “born equal”, given especially that the passage goes 
on to add equality in law (well rights, actually) as  an additional endowment.  

 

“… and they are endowed by their Creator by certain rights, including life, 
liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  

 

Where is John Dobson when we need him.  Could somebody please forward this note 
to him.  I don’t have his email address here with me.

 

Thanks, 

 

Nick 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 10:17 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

 

Purely from my academic understanding of the subject; the Nick that is, at this 
moment / in this incarnation, is a product of karma accrued and shed over 
multiple instances of existence. Hence, what you are now is precisely what you 
deserve to be. All persons may have been created equal some untold incarnations 
ago and before they had any opportunity to accrete karma.

 

davew

 

 

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 2:04 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com 
  wrote:

Sarbajit,

 

If I understand the shape of the globe correctly, you are waking up pretty 
soon, and I would like to pick up the conversation about caste, if you don’t 
mind.   

 

I believe the proposition in the subject line.  Given the many ways that 
proposition can be understood as plainly false, I feel that my belief in it 
must be defended.

 

In what sense equal?  Not in genes.  Not in uterine environment. .  Not in 
early nutrition and cognitive stimulation. Not in social capitol. Not in 
financial capitol.  Not in access to health care.  Not in exposure to future 
parasites.  Not in almost anything that I can think of.   So, why is the 
aphorism not just nonsense.

 

I find, that if I examine my thinking in this matter, a very primitive 
metaphysics about the moment of an individual’s creation.  What follows is 
flagrantly silly, but here it is.   On my account, at the moment of birth a 
soul is taken out of storage and assigned to a body.  By “person” in the 
aphorism, I mean the combination of a particular soul with the particular body. 
 These assignments are at random.  So, for good or ill, no soul deserves the 
body it gets.   I cannot claim credit for my genes, my good uterine 
environment, my social capitol, my financial capitol, my bad hip, the draft 
deferment it provided, my getting a phd at absolute peak of demand for phd’s, 
my good education, even my FRIAM membership.  They are all consequences of that 
initial, random assignment.   Now YOU may credit me in some ways, because 
knowing that all these advantages have been assigned to me may make me useful 
or pleasing (or the opposite) in many ways, and that may bring me the 
advantages of your association.  But ==> I <== do not ==>deserve<== those 
advantages. 

 

This odd metaphysics leads me to enormous gratitude for the life I have been 
allowed to live and great sympathy for rigorous taxation of the advantaged, so 
that so much a soul’s future is not determined by that moment of assignment.

 

I have no idea what happens to this primitive metaphysics if I try to integrate 
it with my monism.  The religious scholars among you might recognize as some 
backass weird perversion of Calvinism. 

 

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

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Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

[Prof David West]

Purely from my academic understanding of the subject; the Nick that is, at this 
moment / in this incarnation, is a product of karma accrued and shed over 
multiple instances of existence. Hence, what you are now is precisely what you 
_deserve_ to be. All persons may have been created equal some untold 
incarnations ago and before they had any opportunity to accrete karma.

davew


On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 2:04 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> Sarbajit,
>  
> If I understand the shape of the globe correctly, you are waking up pretty 
> soon, and I would like to pick up the conversation about caste, if you don’t 
> mind.   
>  
> I believe the proposition in the subject line.  Given the many ways that 
> proposition can be understood as plainly false, I feel that my belief in it 
> must be defended.
>  
> In what sense equal?  Not in genes.  Not in uterine environment. .  Not in 
> early nutrition and cognitive stimulation. Not in social capitol. Not in 
> financial capitol.  Not in access to health care.  Not in exposure to future 
> parasites.  Not in almost anything that I can think of.   So, why is the 
> aphorism not just nonsense.
>  
> I find, that if I examine my thinking in this matter, a very primitive 
> metaphysics about the moment of an individual’s creation.  What follows is 
> flagrantly silly, but here it is.   On my account, at the moment of birth a 
> soul is taken out of storage and assigned to a body.  By “person” in the 
> aphorism, I mean the combination of a particular soul with the particular 
> body.  These assignments are at random.  So, for good or ill, no soul 
> deserves the body it gets.   I cannot claim credit for my genes, my good 
> uterine environment, my social capitol, my financial capitol, my bad hip, the 
> draft deferment it provided, my getting a phd at absolute peak of demand for 
> phd’s, my good education, even my FRIAM membership.  They are all 
> consequences of that initial, random assignment.   Now YOU may credit me in 
> some ways, because knowing that all these advantages have been assigned to me 
> may make me useful or pleasing (or the opposite) in many ways, and that may 
> bring me the advantages of your association.  But è I ç do not èdeserveç 
> those advantages. 
>  
> This odd metaphysics leads me to enormous gratitude for the life I have been 
> allowed to live and great sympathy for rigorous taxation of the advantaged, 
> so that so much a soul’s future is not determined by that moment of 
> assignment.
>  
> I have no idea what happens to this primitive metaphysics if I try to 
> integrate it with my monism.  The religious scholars among you might 
> recognize as some backass weird perversion of Calvinism. 
>  
>  
> Nick Thompson
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>  
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> 
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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[David Eric Smith]

Those who seek cooperative or collaborative support, jointly generated, from 
others, should explain themselves to all as contributing a part of the joint 
effort, collaboration, and mutual responsibility.

The same argument applies to not being exploitative in wage negotiations, 
poisoning backyards that can’t efford to push it off, colonialism, etc.

I still think that what one doesn’t know is secondary to the point, though.  
This is all about holding a position that the society you live in is 
illegitimate, and wanting to act out your animosity toward it or contempt for 
it, as a kind of defiant expression of some kind of agency.  

Max Rose, I think it was, had some sort of good comment about this.  We have to 
break out of the death spiral of having this as the motivation if we are to 
break out of the death spiral.

Eric



> On Aug 27, 2021, at 4:22 AM, Prof David West  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Explain themselves to _? To you? For the purpose of ___?  Securing 
> your approval?
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 1:13 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> They need to explain themselves, and it is entirely appropriate to make 
>> their lives risky and inconvenient until they do.
>>  
>> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> 
>> On Behalf Of Prof David West
>> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:07 PM
>> To: friam@redfish.com 
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>> 
>>  
>> Glen is very sensitive to potential misrepresentation/misinterpretation of 
>> his words, as am I. I merely asked if Glen's sentences, which on their face 
>> seem to equate anti-vax and stupid, should be interpreted that way. In a 
>> sense I was trolling him because I know he would not make such a blanket and 
>> absolute assertion.
>>  
>> However, the entire tenor of the thread, and the public rhetoric regarding 
>> people holding anti-vax positions seems, to me, to be grounded in exactly 
>> this kind of assertion: "if you (a person) are anti-vax you are stupid (and 
>> probably a Trumpista or at least a Republican).
>>  
>> In my  opinion this kind of assertion is wrong, harmful, and, if your goal 
>> is to increase vaccination rates, entirely counter-productive.
>>  
>> davew
>>  
>>  
>> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 10:55 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
>> > I addressed the stupid people vs stupid acts. Dave makes that 
>> > conflation. I don't.
>> > 
>> > But re: punishment - I also never claimed stupidity should be punished. 
>> > I claimed stupidity should be painful. As a person who inflicts pain on 
>> > myself daily, on purpose, it would be silly to identify pain with 
>> > punishment. Futher, many of us are affected by chronic pain, often of 
>> > unknown mechanism/origin. Sophistry about the problem of Evil 
>> > notwithstanding, chronic pain is not the universe punishing you. The 
>> > story of Job is a stupid story.
>> > 
>> > We *could* talk about pain as a mechanism for aversive learning, 
>> > though. The chronic pain I suffer from has taught me how to (and that I 
>> > must) moderately meter out my pain in order to avoid greater amounts of 
>> > pain. Pain has taught me a great deal. It's not a punishment in the 
>> > slightest sense of that word.
>> > 
>> > On 8/26/21 9:44 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com 
>> >  wrote:
>> > > It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and 
>> > > "self-preservation".  There is something incoherent about asserting that 
>> > > stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient features 
>> > > of stupidity is an inability to learn from experience.   
>> > > 
>> > > Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts?
>> > -- 
>> > ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>> > 
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>> > 
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>> > 
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>> > 
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>> > 
>> > 
>>  
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>> 

Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

[thompnickson2]

Hi, Glen, 

 

You wrote:

 

I read *through* the word to a constellation of ideals behind it, including 
dyed in the wool socialism, if not anarchism.

 

I cannot see how my “creation myth” as you aptly term it, leads to government 
control of the means of production, let alone anarchism.  I am no anarchist, so 
if you can show me how this works, its bad news for the myth.  

 

Nick 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 4:48 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

 

Yeah, talk of equality is sophistry, in the bad sense of the word. But, NOT 
being a postmodernist, myself, I read *through* the word to a constellation of 
ideals behind it, including dyed in the wool socialism, if not anarchism. But 
unlike Nick's creation myth, I tend to think of it in terms of Respect for 
Persons ... or simply Respect:   
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/respect/

 

In fact, one place the righties have it right is that to equalize everything in 
a single dimension (e.g. redistribution of money) is ultimately disrespectful 
and, hence, a violation of the principle of equality (if understood as 
respect). Where they go wrong is in rejecting the idea of equalizing according 
to a large fabric of variables, which is what motivates equalization by money 
... because ... wait for it ... money is a good, reductive, singular candidate 
for hyper-reduction ... well, fiat money anyway. So, only because we live in a 
largely capitalist society, does equalization via money make sense ... because 
money is a medium, not a thing, in itself.

 

Obviously, I have my doubts about money as a fluid medium. But we've argued 
that to death already.

 

 

On 8/26/21 1:22 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

> Marcus wrote:

>> 

>> You are made of matter following some trajectory that was initiated with the 
>> big bang, and you will go where you will go.  There is no “deserve”.

>> 

> 

> "The universe is flux, all else is opinion" - M. Aurelius

> 

> and... 

>"they're merely talking to hear themselves speak" - G. Ropella

 

 

--

☤>$ uǝlƃ

 

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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[David Eric Smith]

Two thoughts on your below, Jochen, which seem to me to belong in the list 
along with what you have:

1. If we don’t care what they called it — “element” — then the question is, 
were the classical Greeks as right as one could be at the time?  We now use the 
word “element” to refer to a Mendeleev position within the atomic theory.  But 
that doesn’t mean it was anything like that for them.  If they meant by 
“element” that “you can cut it finer and finer, and its properties seem to 
remain the same”, then that is the definition of the independence of intensive 
from extensive state variables that defines the large-deviation limit, and for 
equilibrium systems, the meaning of phase.  I have not met a Greek scholar with 
the chops to give me a Gian-Carlo Rota level of analysis of what a word “meant” 
to a given people at a given time.  I actually would like to know what is the 
best possible handling of this question.

2. The second is heritability.  To say a system wants a partition into phases 
doesn’t say anything about whether that partition should make use of hereditary 
lineages.  Phases are instantaneously defined things in matter, so components 
take on whatever phase behavior they do based on how things are there, at that 
moment.  But cf. Lewontin: there is a big difference between just-any variation 
in state, and a variation that is heritable. 

Here the question of social mobility as a specific character of cultural 
development enters.  Even if you knew, at a fully-moden level, that genetics 
doesn’t transmit very many socially-consequential aptitudes — so kids of master 
chess players may or may not have the innate talent to allow their top level of 
development to stand out the same as the parent’s did, compared to anybody else 
with the same environmental support — you would still admit that children are 
raised in large part by their parents.  So, many things that contribute to 
social capabilities — not only skills training, but habituation, social 
contacts, relations, etc. — are transmitted by the parents.  To allow a 
“comparative advantage” in Ricardo’s sense to contribute some level of 
productive enhancement but to be based on mainly inborn proclivity and 
preference, and not mainly on parental resources, you need to provide quite a 
strong social support culture to allow kids to find out what their upper limit 
of ability and fulfillment will be, across the vast range of domains where they 
might find it.  

It makes hereditary caste comprehensible as a historical regularity, though 
disappointing if you believe it would be possible for a society to offer its 
people specialized development not pinned to parental transmission.

Probably where societies are at the moment is somewhere in-between .  Of course 
parents set up kids to have an easier shot at some things than at others.  But 
the parts where a genetic marker isn’t being used by the society to lock in 
castes could still allow reasonable mobility on timescales of a couple of 
generations.

Eric



> On Aug 27, 2021, at 1:02 AM, Jochen Fromm  wrote:
> 
> I am reading "The Origins of Political Order" from Francis Fukuyama at the 
> moment and one thing I noticed is that the 4 classes from India's caste 
> system actually represent the division into religion (Brahmins, priestly 
> class), military (Kshatriyas, warrior class), economy (Vaishyas, merchant 
> class) and others (Shudras, manual workers)
> https://www.dw.com/en/indias-caste-system-weakened-but-still-influential/a-39718124
>  
> 
> 
> The Greek philosopher Empedocles argued the world is made of four elements - 
> fire, earth, air and water. There are no such elements, but there are indeed 
> four phases of matter - plasma, solid, gas and liquid.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_(matter)
> 
> This means that the ancient Greeks and the ancient Indians were not 
> completely wrong. Can a "worker" or "slave" class be seen as an essential 
> phase or subsystem too? I believe yes. Slavery in ancient times was in my 
> opinion a precursor of employment. Proto-companies needed cheap employees 
> before employees or economies existed. The "class" of slaves served as 
> proto-employees, in ancient Egypt, ancient Greece and ancient Rome. A dream 
> for their proto-employer, a nightmare for them. I guess "Caste: The Origins 
> of Our Discontents" from Isabel Wilkerson which Nick mentioned makes a 
> similar point.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste:_The_Origins_of_Our_Discontents
> 
> -J.
> 
> 
> 
>  Original message 
> From: Sarbajit Roy 
> Date: 8/26/21 04:43 (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> 
> H

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Frank Wimberly]

Makes me think of Rand Paul.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, 5:54 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> A public servant remarked to me that their boss mostly does things to
> pacify unreasonable people.  This in turn encourages more unreasonable
> behavior.   The agency of the unreasonable people is characterized by how
> much disruption they can cause, not by the inherent value of the goals that
> they have.  The goals are just a temporary means by which to demonstrate
> their agency and process their feelings of alienation.   I suggest that
> this neediness at some point becomes toxic and cannot be repaired.   At a
> company, those people get fired.
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *David Eric Smith
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 26, 2021 3:16 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>
>
>
> Those who seek cooperative or collaborative support, jointly generated,
> from others, should explain themselves to all as contributing a part of the
> joint effort, collaboration, and mutual responsibility.
>
>
>
> The same argument applies to not being exploitative in wage negotiations,
> poisoning backyards that can’t efford to push it off, colonialism, etc.
>
>
>
> I still think that what one doesn’t know is secondary to the point,
> though.  This is all about holding a position that the society you live in
> is illegitimate, and wanting to act out your animosity toward it or
> contempt for it, as a kind of defiant expression of some kind of agency.
>
>
>
> Max Rose, I think it was, had some sort of good comment about this.  We
> have to break out of the death spiral of having this as the motivation if
> we are to break out of the death spiral.
>
>
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 27, 2021, at 4:22 AM, Prof David West  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Explain themselves to _? To you? For the purpose of ___?  Securing
> your approval?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 1:13 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> They need to explain themselves, and it is entirely appropriate to make
> their lives risky and inconvenient until they do.
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Prof David West
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:07 PM
>
> *To:* friam@redfish.com
>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>
>
>
>
>
> Glen is very sensitive to potential misrepresentation/misinterpretation of
> his words, as am I. I merely asked if Glen's sentences, which on their face
> seem to equate anti-vax and stupid, should be interpreted that way. In a
> sense I was trolling him because I know he would not make such a blanket
> and absolute assertion.
>
>
>
> However, the entire tenor of the thread, and the public rhetoric regarding
> people holding anti-vax positions seems, to me, to be grounded in exactly
> this kind of assertion: "if *you* (a person) are anti-vax *you* are
> stupid (and probably a Trumpista or at least a Republican).
>
>
>
> In my  opinion this kind of assertion is wrong, harmful, and, if your goal
> is to increase vaccination rates, entirely counter-productive.
>
>
>
> davew
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 10:55 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
>
> > I addressed the stupid people vs stupid acts. Dave makes that
>
> > conflation. I don't.
>
> >
>
> > But re: punishment - I also never claimed stupidity should be punished.
>
> > I claimed stupidity should be painful. As a person who inflicts pain on
>
> > myself daily, on purpose, it would be silly to identify pain with
>
> > punishment. Futher, many of us are affected by chronic pain, often of
>
> > unknown mechanism/origin. Sophistry about the problem of Evil
>
> > notwithstanding, chronic pain is not the universe punishing you. The
>
> > story of Job is a stupid story.
>
> >
>
> > We *could* talk about pain as a mechanism for aversive learning,
>
> > though. The chronic pain I suffer from has taught me how to (and that I
>
> > must) moderately meter out my pain in order to avoid greater amounts of
>
> > pain. Pain has taught me a great deal. It's not a punishment in the
>
> > slightest sense of that word.
>
> >
>
> > On 8/26/21 9:44 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and
> "self-preservation".  There is something incoherent about asserting that
> stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient features of
> stupidity is an inability to learn from experience.
>
> > >
>
> > > Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid
> acts?
>
> > --
>
> > ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>
> >
>
> > -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
>
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>
> > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> 

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Marcus Daniels]

A public servant remarked to me that their boss mostly does things to pacify 
unreasonable people.  This in turn encourages more unreasonable behavior.   The 
agency of the unreasonable people is characterized by how much disruption they 
can cause, not by the inherent value of the goals that they have.  The goals 
are just a temporary means by which to demonstrate their agency and process 
their feelings of alienation.   I suggest that this neediness at some point 
becomes toxic and cannot be repaired.   At a company, those people get fired.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 3:16 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Those who seek cooperative or collaborative support, jointly generated, from 
others, should explain themselves to all as contributing a part of the joint 
effort, collaboration, and mutual responsibility.

The same argument applies to not being exploitative in wage negotiations, 
poisoning backyards that can’t efford to push it off, colonialism, etc.

I still think that what one doesn’t know is secondary to the point, though.  
This is all about holding a position that the society you live in is 
illegitimate, and wanting to act out your animosity toward it or contempt for 
it, as a kind of defiant expression of some kind of agency.

Max Rose, I think it was, had some sort of good comment about this.  We have to 
break out of the death spiral of having this as the motivation if we are to 
break out of the death spiral.

Eric




On Aug 27, 2021, at 4:22 AM, Prof David West 
mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm>> wrote:


Explain themselves to _? To you? For the purpose of ___?  Securing your 
approval?



On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 1:13 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
They need to explain themselves, and it is entirely appropriate to make their 
lives risky and inconvenient until they do.

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:07 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side


Glen is very sensitive to potential misrepresentation/misinterpretation of his 
words, as am I. I merely asked if Glen's sentences, which on their face seem to 
equate anti-vax and stupid, should be interpreted that way. In a sense I was 
trolling him because I know he would not make such a blanket and absolute 
assertion.

However, the entire tenor of the thread, and the public rhetoric regarding 
people holding anti-vax positions seems, to me, to be grounded in exactly this 
kind of assertion: "if you (a person) are anti-vax you are stupid (and probably 
a Trumpista or at least a Republican).

In my  opinion this kind of assertion is wrong, harmful, and, if your goal is 
to increase vaccination rates, entirely counter-productive.

davew


On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 10:55 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
> I addressed the stupid people vs stupid acts. Dave makes that
> conflation. I don't.
>
> But re: punishment - I also never claimed stupidity should be punished.
> I claimed stupidity should be painful. As a person who inflicts pain on
> myself daily, on purpose, it would be silly to identify pain with
> punishment. Futher, many of us are affected by chronic pain, often of
> unknown mechanism/origin. Sophistry about the problem of Evil
> notwithstanding, chronic pain is not the universe punishing you. The
> story of Job is a stupid story.
>
> We *could* talk about pain as a mechanism for aversive learning,
> though. The chronic pain I suffer from has taught me how to (and that I
> must) moderately meter out my pain in order to avoid greater amounts of
> pain. Pain has taught me a great deal. It's not a punishment in the
> slightest sense of that word.
>
> On 8/26/21 9:44 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
> > It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and 
> > "self-preservation".  There is something incoherent about asserting that 
> > stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient features of 
> > stupidity is an inability to learn from experience.
> >
> > Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts?
> --
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>
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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Steve Smith]

EricS -

> This is all about holding a position that the society you live in is
illegitimate, and wanting to act out your
> animosity toward it or contempt for it, as a kind of defiant
expression of some kind of agency. 

Well stated... I think this captures a lot of the degenerate behaviour
of the disenfranchised (real and imaginedly so) in general, but as it
has come home to roost as "whitelash" it is more painfully and evidently
self-defeating.   The clown-show that was the Jan 6 attempted
insurrection really put a cartoonish face on it, albeit a dangerous
one.   The continued dribble of new arrests, of court proceedings, and
the strange defenses/pleas coming out of that really reflect this
self-defeated stylization.    Same with the Congressional (and other)
Trumpeteers continuing to step more and more on their own
clown-shoelaces as they try to have it both/all ways.   Goodbye Sydney
Powell, goodbye Rudy Guiliani, ... who is next?

> Max Rose, I think it was, had some sort of good comment about this.
>  We have to break out of the death spiral of having this as the
> motivation if we are to break out of the death spiral.
Nicely recursive.  I think too often we have to bounce off of some (real
or imagined) bottom to reverse that spiral...  in these times I fear
there is "no bottom", false or otherwise.

-SteveS


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Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

[Steve Smith]

I appreciate the shift from "/equality/" as some kind of universal
and/or objective to "/respect/" as something closer to a localized,
pairwise set of relations.   If the earth is covered with humans who
have significant mutual respect among our social networks/relations,
that leads to a smooth if not globally equal function.  With a fabric
woven of human-human respect, I suspect the disparity of our
mega-billionaires contrasted with starving children (many places?) would
normalize very quickly.   "Equality" is at best some kind of
rule-of-thumb measure of how well that "respect" is distributed?

And isn't this the issue with Taliban/ISIS?  Whatever metric of
"respect" they implement is apparently far enough from our own so as to
be nearly unrecognizeable?  

Economic wealth (in the sense of hoarded liquifiable assets, or money
flow as income/rent) is an easy (too easy) singular collapsed objective
function.   I'm not sure I agree that it is not a fluid medium, though
it definitely has some odd characteristics, maybe even to the point of
being "superfluid" in some bad ways?

I think the point of local smoothness is more important than the choice
of variables (though I agree in principle with your "large fabric of
variables" conception. 

What does the lowest paid staff at Mara Lago make, and do they have
access to Donald Trump's hamburgers and fried chicken as it is
prepared/served?    Without arguing DTs *actual* wealth, the
wealth/income disparity would seem to be problematic in any gated
community, much less one as bizarrely extreme (in several dimensions of
the fabric of variables) as Mara Lago. 

The article I linked earlier suggests a more significant equality in the
American Colonies than I assumed, but mostly as a "frontier" with open
ended opportunities (the lore of my own people is that their Scots-Irish
ancestors fled indentured servitude through the Cumberland Gap, thereby
peopling the Ohio Valley and the western slopes of the Appalachian
Mountains in the process.   Is it any wonder that the g*grandchildren of
Rob Roy and William Wallace are fixated on "honor" over "wealth".  
"Honor" is not the same as "Respect", but perhaps closer than "Wealth"?

https://www.politifact.com/article/2015/jul/02/founding-fathers-ordinary-folk/

> Yeah, talk of equality is sophistry, in the bad sense of the word. But, NOT 
> being a postmodernist, myself, I read *through* the word to a constellation 
> of ideals behind it, including dyed in the wool socialism, if not anarchism. 
> But unlike Nick's creation myth, I tend to think of it in terms of Respect 
> for Persons ... or simply Respect: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/respect/
>
> In fact, one place the righties have it right is that to equalize everything 
> in a single dimension (e.g. redistribution of money) is ultimately 
> disrespectful and, hence, a violation of the principle of equality (if 
> understood as respect). Where they go wrong is in rejecting the idea of 
> equalizing according to a large fabric of variables, which is what motivates 
> equalization by money ... because ... wait for it ... money is a good, 
> reductive, singular candidate for hyper-reduction ... well, fiat money 
> anyway. So, only because we live in a largely capitalist society, does 
> equalization via money make sense ... because money is a medium, not a thing, 
> in itself.
>
> Obviously, I have my doubts about money as a fluid medium. But we've argued 
> that to death already.
>
>
> On 8/26/21 1:22 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
>> Marcus wrote:
>>> You are made of matter following some trajectory that was initiated with 
>>> the big bang, and you will go where you will go.  There is no “deserve”.
>>>
>>             "The universe is flux, all else is opinion" - M. Aurelius
>>
>> and... 
>>  "they're merely talking to hear themselves speak" - G. Ropella
>
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Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

Yeah, talk of equality is sophistry, in the bad sense of the word. But, NOT 
being a postmodernist, myself, I read *through* the word to a constellation of 
ideals behind it, including dyed in the wool socialism, if not anarchism. But 
unlike Nick's creation myth, I tend to think of it in terms of Respect for 
Persons ... or simply Respect: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/respect/

In fact, one place the righties have it right is that to equalize everything in 
a single dimension (e.g. redistribution of money) is ultimately disrespectful 
and, hence, a violation of the principle of equality (if understood as 
respect). Where they go wrong is in rejecting the idea of equalizing according 
to a large fabric of variables, which is what motivates equalization by money 
... because ... wait for it ... money is a good, reductive, singular candidate 
for hyper-reduction ... well, fiat money anyway. So, only because we live in a 
largely capitalist society, does equalization via money make sense ... because 
money is a medium, not a thing, in itself.

Obviously, I have my doubts about money as a fluid medium. But we've argued 
that to death already.


On 8/26/21 1:22 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
> Marcus wrote:
>>
>> You are made of matter following some trajectory that was initiated with the 
>> big bang, and you will go where you will go.  There is no “deserve”.
>>
> 
>             "The universe is flux, all else is opinion" - M. Aurelius
> 
> and... 
>   "they're merely talking to hear themselves speak" - G. Ropella


-- 
☤>$ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] interesting - if true

[Alexander Rasmus]

Dave,

I think there's some truth to the general picture you're painting, but your
leading statistic is going to have to be based on household income, or
qualified in some other way, to have a good chance of being true. As of
2019, there were ~30 million people making over 100k/year, out of 235
million income earners overall in the US (see
https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/income-poverty/cps-pinc/pinc-08.2019.html).
The IRS probably has similar statistics, but I don't know if they
disambiguate which spouse is earning in joint filings, and as such might be
less relevant to the particular claim. 75 percent of the rest of income
earners is ~66 percent off all income earners or ~153 million people. The
2020 voter turnout was ~158 million. There's a few confounders that should
alter the result I'm getting (earners aren't all eligible to vote, for a
variety of reasons), but they shouldn't make up a factor of two. Even if I
assume that the number of eligible voters who earn is exactly the 2020
voter turnout, and all earners above 100k are eligible voters, 75% of
eligible voter earners under 100k is still 60% overall. Please check my
math, I kept switching years in the tables and while I think I've got all
my numbers from the same year I may have missed something.

It looks like the percentage of households earning over 100k is ~30%
(cursory googling), .75*.7=.525 of households overall. This is still a
little high, but if you add in some other constraints, e.g., on only
considering households which are registered to one of the major parties,
you can probably get there?

Best,
Alex

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 2:04 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> < If these were true, it would be interesting to the extent it belies the
> caricatures of the Republican party as the bastion of the plutocrats and
> the Democratic party as the champion of the working class.>
>
> Did anyone watch Pennyworth?   The father is a possible picture of today's
> anti-liberal-democratic voter.  Yeah, he's a fascist and a servant.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:55 PM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: [FRIAM] interesting - if true
>
> I encountered the following assertions but have not been able to confirm
> or refute.
>
> 65% of Americans earning $500,000/yr or more are registered Democrats and
> 74% of those earning $100,000 or less are Registered Republican.
> (Supposedly, IRS is source, but I can find it.)
>
> The 20 wealthiest Congressional Districts have Democratic representatives.
> (How was wealth measured?)
>
> 17 of the 20 wealthiest zip codes gave more money to Democrats than
> Republicans. (
>
> More than half of the wealthiest individuals (Forbes list I guess) in the
> US, consistently support, in words and contributions (how would anyone
> know) "liberal democratic" values and causes.
>
> If these were true, it would be interesting to the extent it belies the
> caricatures of the Republican party as the bastion of the plutocrats and
> the Democratic party as the champion of the working class.
>
> davew
>
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Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

[Frank Wimberly]

In seventh grade we in learned that the obvious falsity of the proposition
is solved by realizing that it means that all men are (should be)
politically equal.  I'm not sure that's what the writers meant.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, 2:25 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

> Marcus wrote:
>
> You are made of matter following some trajectory that was initiated with
> the big bang, and you will go where you will go.  There is no “deserve”.
>
>
> "The universe is flux, all else is opinion" - M. Aurelius
>
> and...
>   "they're merely talking to hear themselves speak" - G. Ropella
>
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

[Steve Smith]

Marcus wrote:
>
> You are made of matter following some trajectory that was initiated
> with the big bang, and you will go where you will go.  There is no
> “deserve”.
>

            "The universe is flux, all else is opinion" - M. Aurelius

and... 
"they're merely talking to hear themselves speak" - G. Ropella


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Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

[Marcus Daniels]

You are made of matter following some trajectory that was initiated with the 
big bang, and you will go where you will go.  There is no "deserve".

From: Friam  On Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 1:04 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
Subject: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

Sarbajit,

If I understand the shape of the globe correctly, you are waking up pretty 
soon, and I would like to pick up the conversation about caste, if you don't 
mind.

I believe the proposition in the subject line.  Given the many ways that 
proposition can be understood as plainly false, I feel that my belief in it 
must be defended.

In what sense equal?  Not in genes.  Not in uterine environment. .  Not in 
early nutrition and cognitive stimulation. Not in social capitol. Not in 
financial capitol.  Not in access to health care.  Not in exposure to future 
parasites.  Not in almost anything that I can think of.   So, why is the 
aphorism not just nonsense.

I find, that if I examine my thinking in this matter, a very primitive 
metaphysics about the moment of an individual's creation.  What follows is 
flagrantly silly, but here it is.   On my account, at the moment of birth a 
soul is taken out of storage and assigned to a body.  By "person" in the 
aphorism, I mean the combination of a particular soul with the particular body. 
 These assignments are at random.  So, for good or ill, no soul deserves the 
body it gets.   I cannot claim credit for my genes, my good uterine 
environment, my social capitol, my financial capitol, my bad hip, the draft 
deferment it provided, my getting a phd at absolute peak of demand for phd's, 
my good education, even my FRIAM membership.  They are all consequences of that 
initial, random assignment.   Now YOU may credit me in some ways, because 
knowing that all these advantages have been assigned to me may make me useful 
or pleasing (or the opposite) in many ways, and that may bring me the 
advantages of your association.  But ==> I <== do not ==>deserve<== those 
advantages.

This odd metaphysics leads me to enormous gratitude for the life I have been 
allowed to live and great sympathy for rigorous taxation of the advantaged, so 
that so much a soul's future is not determined by that moment of assignment.

I have no idea what happens to this primitive metaphysics if I try to integrate 
it with my monism.  The religious scholars among you might recognize as some 
backass weird perversion of Calvinism.


Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

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[FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

[thompnickson2]

Sarbajit, 

 

If I understand the shape of the globe correctly, you are waking up pretty
soon, and I would like to pick up the conversation about caste, if you don't
mind.

 

I believe the proposition in the subject line.  Given the many ways that
proposition can be understood as plainly false, I feel that my belief in it
must be defended. 

 

In what sense equal?  Not in genes.  Not in uterine environment. .  Not in
early nutrition and cognitive stimulation. Not in social capitol. Not in
financial capitol.  Not in access to health care.  Not in exposure to future
parasites.  Not in almost anything that I can think of.   So, why is the
aphorism not just nonsense.

 

I find, that if I examine my thinking in this matter, a very primitive
metaphysics about the moment of an individual's creation.  What follows is
flagrantly silly, but here it is.   On my account, at the moment of birth a
soul is taken out of storage and assigned to a body.  By "person" in the
aphorism, I mean the combination of a particular soul with the particular
body.  These assignments are at random.  So, for good or ill, no soul
deserves the body it gets.   I cannot claim credit for my genes, my good
uterine environment, my social capitol, my financial capitol, my bad hip,
the draft deferment it provided, my getting a phd at absolute peak of demand
for phd's, my good education, even my FRIAM membership.  They are all
consequences of that initial, random assignment.   Now YOU may credit me in
some ways, because knowing that all these advantages have been assigned to
me may make me useful or pleasing (or the opposite) in many ways, and that
may bring me the advantages of your association.  But ==> I <== do not
==>deserve<== those advantages.  

 

This odd metaphysics leads me to enormous gratitude for the life I have been
allowed to live and great sympathy for rigorous taxation of the advantaged,
so that so much a soul's future is not determined by that moment of
assignment. 

 

I have no idea what happens to this primitive metaphysics if I try to
integrate it with my monism.  The religious scholars among you might
recognize as some backass weird perversion of Calvinism.  

 

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

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Re: [FRIAM] interesting - if true

[Marcus Daniels]

< If these were true, it would be interesting to the extent it belies the 
caricatures of the Republican party as the bastion of the plutocrats and the 
Democratic party as the champion of the working class.>

Did anyone watch Pennyworth?   The father is a possible picture of today's 
anti-liberal-democratic voter.  Yeah, he's a fascist and a servant.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:55 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: [FRIAM] interesting - if true

I encountered the following assertions but have not been able to confirm or 
refute.

65% of Americans earning $500,000/yr or more are registered Democrats and 74% 
of those earning $100,000 or less are Registered Republican. (Supposedly, IRS 
is source, but I can find it.)

The 20 wealthiest Congressional Districts have Democratic representatives. (How 
was wealth measured?)

17 of the 20 wealthiest zip codes gave more money to Democrats than 
Republicans. (

More than half of the wealthiest individuals (Forbes list I guess) in the US, 
consistently support, in words and contributions (how would anyone know) 
"liberal democratic" values and causes.

If these were true, it would be interesting to the extent it belies the 
caricatures of the Republican party as the bastion of the plutocrats and the 
Democratic party as the champion of the working class.

davew

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[FRIAM] interesting - if true

[Prof David West]

I encountered the following assertions but have not been able to confirm or 
refute.

65% of Americans earning $500,000/yr or more are registered Democrats and 74% 
of those earning $100,000 or less are Registered Republican. (Supposedly, IRS 
is source, but I can find it.)

The 20 wealthiest Congressional Districts have Democratic representatives. (How 
was wealth measured?)

17 of the 20 wealthiest zip codes gave more money to Democrats than 
Republicans. (

More than half of the wealthiest individuals (Forbes list I guess) in the US, 
consistently support, in words and contributions (how would anyone know) 
"liberal democratic" values and causes.

If these were true, it would be interesting to the extent it belies the 
caricatures of the Republican party as the bastion of the plutocrats and the 
Democratic party as the champion of the working class.

davew

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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Marcus Daniels]

A woman brings in her husband to an ER having a heart attack, and she shows the 
staff vaccinations record for both of them, versus a man that obviously has 
COVID and his wife says there was no vaccination, and they never would consider 
it.  All things being equal if a choice is needed to take one first (because of 
lack of capacity), why should a nurse or doctor prioritize the person who makes 
it clear they have chosen to endanger the hospital workers?  There are 
interviews in the news lately with such people, some of them now dead.  I can 
dig them up if you want.

Yes, I understand there are practicalities make this hard to make policy, but 
as a thought experiment, why give a shit about the latter?   Given finite 
resources, some decisions about how to deploy staff have to be made.  Do these 
resources go to the COVID wing or not?

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:22 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side



Explain themselves to _? To you? For the purpose of ___?  Securing your 
approval?



On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 1:13 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

They need to explain themselves, and it is entirely appropriate to make their 
lives risky and inconvenient until they do.


From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:07 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side



Glen is very sensitive to potential misrepresentation/misinterpretation of his 
words, as am I. I merely asked if Glen's sentences, which on their face seem to 
equate anti-vax and stupid, should be interpreted that way. In a sense I was 
trolling him because I know he would not make such a blanket and absolute 
assertion.



However, the entire tenor of the thread, and the public rhetoric regarding 
people holding anti-vax positions seems, to me, to be grounded in exactly this 
kind of assertion: "if you (a person) are anti-vax you are stupid (and probably 
a Trumpista or at least a Republican).



In my  opinion this kind of assertion is wrong, harmful, and, if your goal is 
to increase vaccination rates, entirely counter-productive.



davew





On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 10:55 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:

> I addressed the stupid people vs stupid acts. Dave makes that

> conflation. I don't.

>

> But re: punishment - I also never claimed stupidity should be punished.

> I claimed stupidity should be painful. As a person who inflicts pain on

> myself daily, on purpose, it would be silly to identify pain with

> punishment. Futher, many of us are affected by chronic pain, often of

> unknown mechanism/origin. Sophistry about the problem of Evil

> notwithstanding, chronic pain is not the universe punishing you. The

> story of Job is a stupid story.

>

> We *could* talk about pain as a mechanism for aversive learning,

> though. The chronic pain I suffer from has taught me how to (and that I

> must) moderately meter out my pain in order to avoid greater amounts of

> pain. Pain has taught me a great deal. It's not a punishment in the

> slightest sense of that word.

>

> On 8/26/21 9:44 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com 
> wrote:

> > It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and 
> > "self-preservation".  There is something incoherent about asserting that 
> > stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient features of 
> > stupidity is an inability to learn from experience.

> >

> > Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts?

> --

> ☤>$ uǝlƃ

>

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>


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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Steve Smith]

> We could also deconflate "should" with "needs to be" in the sense that
> the former is a social/moral judgement while the latter is intended to
> be held a adaptive system feedback loop?
>
> If we consider "stupid" to be all things "maladaptive" then "punishing"
> those behaviours helps to winnow the population (of instances or
> instances of behaviours) down to those which are more adaptive.
>
> "stupidity needs to be punished" might be a tautology in this context?

Or to follow Glen's disambiguation between "punishment" and "pain" ,
"stupidity is painful" by definition?

I would like to pick the nit, however, that some presentations of
stupidity seem to be "deliberate dullness" which might well be a
reaction to "pain which cannot be avoided"?  Perhaps what we see as
"stupid behaviour" is just the result of driving (sub)systems past their
own adaptivity.  If we want them to evolve to a more adaptive state
space, sometimes we need to back off and not drive so hard?  

Over-punishing parents and the kind of offspring they yield, come to mind.

>
>> Glen, 
>>
>> It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and 
>> "self-preservation".  There is something incoherent about asserting that 
>> stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient features of 
>> stupidity is an inability to learn from experience.   
>>
>> Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts?  
>>
>> N
>>
>> Nick Thompson
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 11:53 AM
>> To: friam@redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>>
>> I suppose it all depends on what "anti-vax" means, eh? If you take 
>> "anti-vax" to mean a kind of nihilistic "who cares?", then no. If you take 
>> "anti-vax" to mean "the spike protein made by the body in response to the 
>> mRNA vaccines is toxic", then yes. If you take "anti-vax" to mean "the 
>> vaccines contain aborted fetal tissue and it would be immoral for me to 
>> inject that into my body", then yes. Etc.
>>
>> By "anti-vax", most of Us the Enlightened are referring *not* to clear 
>> thinking people who have a calculus for making such decisions. We're 
>> referring to group thinkers who get the majority of their "scientific 
>> information" from Facebook posts from their friends.
>>
>> A person who sincerely doubts ingesting the vaccines and bases that doubt on 
>> controversial (not fully falsified nonsense) evidence would not be 
>> "anti-vax" in my book. (I'm looking at Pieter! 8^D)
>>
>> If you base your analytical evaluation and conclusions on obvious stupidity, 
>> then yes, I'd call your conclusions and analysis stupid. And stupidity must 
>> be painful. But if you base your analytical evaluation and conclusions on 
>> the truly questionable rhetoric put forth by others, then no, I'd call it 
>> *skeptical*. And skepticism must be rewarded.
>>
>> I'm not anti-vax because, in general, I'm not anti-*, anti-anything. I'm not 
>> really even anti-stupidity. I do stupid stuff all the time, come to stupid 
>> conclusions all the time. That's mostly because I'm contrarian. But my 
>> stupidity is painful and my contrary nature ensures that it is painful. In 
>> the end, Marcus' rhetoric is right. Shun the anti-vax from institutions, 
>> where reasonable. E.g. I intend to attend a small concert in September as a 
>> birthday gift to both me and Renee'. However, entry at the door will require 
>> evidence of vax status *or* a PCR test result dated within the last 48 
>> hours. And I think that's the right thing to do. If you're anti-vax, no King 
>> Buffalo for you!
>>
>>
>> On 8/26/21 8:27 AM, Prof David West wrote:
>>> Glen stated:/"Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful."/
>>>
>>> Is it correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to stupidity in 
>>> all cases without exception?
>>>
>>> Such an interpretation would certainly be consistent with the prevailing 
>>> rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two groups: Them the stupid and Us 
>>> the enlightened.
>>>
>>> Am I, for example, stupid; giving no regard to the basis of my being 
>>> anti-vax, for me personally?
>>>
>>> [BTW, my analytical evaluation and conclusions did not stop me from 
>>> getting vaccinated despite my antipathy. But my doing so was simply a 
>>> matter of coercion.]
>>>
>>> davew
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 8:15 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
 Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient 
 or PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test 
 results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful.

 But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness.

 On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have 
> sufficient capacity.   Through a triage

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Prof David West]

Explain themselves to _? To you? For the purpose of ___?  Securing your 
approval?



On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 1:13 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> They need to explain themselves, and it is entirely appropriate to make their 
> lives risky and inconvenient until they do.
>  
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Prof David West
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:07 PM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> 
>  
> Glen is very sensitive to potential misrepresentation/misinterpretation of 
> his words, as am I. I merely asked if Glen's sentences, which on their face 
> seem to equate anti-vax and stupid, should be interpreted that way. In a 
> sense I was trolling him because I know he would not make such a blanket and 
> absolute assertion.
>  
> However, the entire tenor of the thread, and the public rhetoric regarding 
> people holding anti-vax positions seems, to me, to be grounded in exactly 
> this kind of assertion: "if _you_ (a person) are anti-vax _you_ are stupid 
> (and probably a Trumpista or at least a Republican).
>  
> In my  opinion this kind of assertion is wrong, harmful, and, if your goal is 
> to increase vaccination rates, entirely counter-productive.
>  
> davew
>  
>  
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 10:55 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
> > I addressed the stupid people vs stupid acts. Dave makes that 
> > conflation. I don't.
> > 
> > But re: punishment - I also never claimed stupidity should be punished. 
> > I claimed stupidity should be painful. As a person who inflicts pain on 
> > myself daily, on purpose, it would be silly to identify pain with 
> > punishment. Futher, many of us are affected by chronic pain, often of 
> > unknown mechanism/origin. Sophistry about the problem of Evil 
> > notwithstanding, chronic pain is not the universe punishing you. The 
> > story of Job is a stupid story.
> > 
> > We *could* talk about pain as a mechanism for aversive learning, 
> > though. The chronic pain I suffer from has taught me how to (and that I 
> > must) moderately meter out my pain in order to avoid greater amounts of 
> > pain. Pain has taught me a great deal. It's not a punishment in the 
> > slightest sense of that word.
> > 
> > On 8/26/21 9:44 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and 
> > > "self-preservation".  There is something incoherent about asserting that 
> > > stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient features of 
> > > stupidity is an inability to learn from experience.   
> > > 
> > > Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts?
> > -- 
> > ☤>$ uǝlƃ
> > 
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> > 
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Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[Steve Smith]

 uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
> It's not a matter of being absolute or not. It's a matter of nit-picking the 
> particular word used rather than trying to dig into the mechanism. Balling up 
> the composition into "have", "are", or "doing" is all useless posturing. I 
> don't care. Use "are" if you want. I don't care. It's silly to distinguish.

It is not silly to me insomuch as each of those *feels* very
different.   I see others who seem to *do* their emotions... "throwing
tantrums" vs "having fits" vs "being spastic"...  

My inner experience is more that of "having fits" in the moment, but on
careful analysis, I sometimes recognize that I might have "thrown a
tantrum" trying to disguise it as "having a fit".   In the long run
though, it seems that it does sum to "being spastic".

> What I do care about is *how* we compose from part to whole. Superposition 
> is, at least implies, a particular composition, a frequency domain, overlay. 
> But I'd argue it's an impoverished one. The question is about the "hard 
> problem", qualia, quality, etc. When you look at the experiments surrounding 
> general anesthesia, with electrodes planted in various places on and in the 
> body, you see time series that exhibit very long- and very short- term 
> patterns. Consciousness can be quantified based on these time series (and 
> spectral analyses of them). You can do the same with semi-conscious sedation. 
> They are not superpositions so much as sequential modes, iterative feedback 
> loops, waxing and waning in intensity ... waves upon carrier waves. So 
> superposition is necessary, but insufficient.y 

yes, more aptly "coupling" I'd hazard, though to a casual outside
observer, superposition is what is observed from the outside?

I was in a men's group for a while which had any number of silly (to me,
not to them) rituals which included checking in to the group with our
emotions.   They desperately wanted everyone to conform to the
mad/sad/glad/scared basis space.   I resisted, often checking in with
"hopeful yet trepidatious"...   which was the only words I felt
comfortable using to describe the feelings I had.  They tried to
intimidate and cajole me into mad/sad/glad/scared.   The best I could
offer was "I'm glad to be here, a little sad that I have to describe it
in these four words, scared that you will reject me because I'm not
following your code precisely, and mad that you might do such a
thing". I thought "hopeful but trepidatious" was a good shorthand
for that.   I stuck with them for a few months until I attended a
weekend intensive which was quite profound but mostly just made me
realize I had better things to do than drive 90 minutes round trip once
a week to struggle with these guys who had too tight of a formulation
(bless the cardinal directions and their colors, check in
mad/sad/glad/scared, etc.) for my interest (over time).

> Anyone who wants to talk about emotions and things like qualia or sense of 
> self, has to talk about such things. If they don't, they're merely talking to 
> hear themselves speak.

That's a tight prescription and judgement...

Carry on!

 - Steve

>
> On 8/26/21 10:16 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
>> uǝlƃ ☤>$
>>> Ouch! Dude. No! 8^D You're committing the same sin Nick commits. 
>> I understand that I was being provocative with the specific formulation
>> "we ARE" as if it were an absolute.
>>> To say we "are" our emotions ignores the composition, the algebra by which 
>>> parts compose the whole.
>> I agree and only wanted to add to the composition "are" along with
>> "have" and "act-out" .
>>> The point is the very high order conscious *attention* to lower order 
>>> frequencies. Not all is one. There are many parts to organize. How are they 
>>> organized?
>> To what extent are our identities/sense-of-self (inner experience and
>> outer presentation) the superposition of our "emotions"?   yes, we are
>> more and less than that, yet for some purposes it seems we ARE that.
>

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Re: [FRIAM] Kill it!

[Prof David West]

I live about thirty-miles from **Best Friends** — the largest or one of the 
largest no-kill animal sanctuaries in the US. They also are the center of a 
national network of shelters and and rescue operations.

One of the programs they have been promoting, throughout their network, the 
past several years is a feral cat capture-neuter-return-to-origin effort. They 
also promote the adoption of "working cats" — neutered feral or near feral cats 
for barns or rural properties as a means of rodent control.

davew


On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 11:28 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Having pets I adore and also seeing the reality of feral cats, it is hard not 
> to see humans through a similar lens. 
>  
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Gary Schiltz
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 26, 2021 10:01 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Kill it!
> 
>  
> Culling is easy, and they are delicious! Kung Pao Meow!
>  
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 10:23 AM Marcus Daniels  wrote:
>> I have seen what happens when ferals proliferate.   Out in the country it is 
>> common to have a few non-domesticated cats around, but they can proliferate 
>> amongst households.  Look out the window, there is some hunt that is on.   
>> Culling is easy though.
>> 
>> > On Aug 26, 2021, at 7:08 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:
>> > 
>> > So, a wildlife ecologist friend of mine (who meatspace introduced me to 
>> > Looney (WSDA employee who discovered murder hornets here (who also hangs 
>> > at the local pub) [‡])) argues that domestic cats, as an invasive species, 
>> > are more horrifying than murder hornets, or english ivy, or the new 
>> > zealand mudsnail, etc. He focuses on how they're merely killing machines, 
>> > with which I agree. And goes with the usual "keep them inside" rhetoric.
>> > 
>> > But I think I landed on an argument that he couldn't respond to. The 
>> > typical evolutionary argument against domestic cats is that we neuter/spay 
>> > the ones with the qualities we like, leaving the ferals to reproduce and 
>> > evolve. And there's plenty of evidence that a clowder of ferals wreaks 
>> > more havoc on a local ecosystem than a disorganized collection of house 
>> > cats ever does. (Distributions of house cats territory drop off at more 
>> > than ~100 m from their home. So unless the cat lives on the border of a 
>> > wild area, it's impact on wild life is quite small. In contrast, feral 
>> > clowders end up in wilder areas.)
>> > 
>> > To boot, I have an anecdote. When we moved into this house, which is 
>> > buttressed by a fairly wild ravine with owls and wild rabbits and such, 
>> > there was a feral clowder living in a dilapidated house at the crook of 
>> > the ravine (which leads down toward capitol lake). Our alpha, Scooter, 
>> > kept fighting with at least one of these ferals. He lost quite badly one 
>> > time, but due to our policy of universal healthcare, Scooter lives to 
>> > fight again. Now the feral clowder is gone, thereby saving the lives of 
>> > who knows how many little critters in the ravine. Scooter sporadically 
>> > brings home a mouse, mole, or "little brown bird". But it's pretty rare 
>> > now that he's pushing 12 or 13. So, we could say he's an ecologically 
>> > ethical hunter, even if it's unintentional.
>> > 
>> > In the end, though, my wildlife eco friend just loves dogs and hates cats. 
>> > 8^D My guess is his cognitive structure is more dog-like and mine is more 
>> > cat-like, after decades of being programmed by our pets.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > [‡] 
>> > https://www.sciencenews.org/article/asian-giant-murder-hornets-new-map-habitat-united-states
>> > 
>> >> On 8/24/21 4:39 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
>> >> My first reaction to the subject line is one of my favorite parody
>> >> attributions to redneck culture:  "it's Diffr'nt, kill it!" but then I
>> >> read the content and realized it was more apropos than I expected.
>> >> 
>> >> I believe that something like "xenophobia" is an adaptive response in
>> >> many contexts...  we have some pretty deep instincts it seems that let
>> >> us know to be "askeered" of "spiders and snakes" even if we'd never seen
>> >> another ape respond that way.  My dog has always been very (properly)
>> >> fearful of snakes...  otherwise her natural curious aggression would
>> >> have had her dead-by-snakebite long ago...   she went crazy everytime
>> >> she saw a rattlesnake but always barked crazily from a good 6-10 feet
>> >> away.   She never alerted to a non-rattler that I knew of.And in the
>> >> arms race of survival, it is natural that some "skeery" things will
>> >> camoflauge as benign or friendly or cute. 
>> >> 
>> >> I am always a little nervous when large movements (especially gubbm'nt
>> >> supported ) try to tap those instincts.  It seems like a bad precedent
>> >> to encourage formalized xenophobia even against helpless insects.   The
>> >> Charlottesville (and too many other) white-nationalists chanting "jews
>> >> 

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Marcus Daniels]

They need to explain themselves, and it is entirely appropriate to make their 
lives risky and inconvenient until they do.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:07 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Glen is very sensitive to potential misrepresentation/misinterpretation of his 
words, as am I. I merely asked if Glen's sentences, which on their face seem to 
equate anti-vax and stupid, should be interpreted that way. In a sense I was 
trolling him because I know he would not make such a blanket and absolute 
assertion.

However, the entire tenor of the thread, and the public rhetoric regarding 
people holding anti-vax positions seems, to me, to be grounded in exactly this 
kind of assertion: "if you (a person) are anti-vax you are stupid (and probably 
a Trumpista or at least a Republican).

In my  opinion this kind of assertion is wrong, harmful, and, if your goal is 
to increase vaccination rates, entirely counter-productive.

davew


On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 10:55 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
> I addressed the stupid people vs stupid acts. Dave makes that
> conflation. I don't.
>
> But re: punishment - I also never claimed stupidity should be punished.
> I claimed stupidity should be painful. As a person who inflicts pain on
> myself daily, on purpose, it would be silly to identify pain with
> punishment. Futher, many of us are affected by chronic pain, often of
> unknown mechanism/origin. Sophistry about the problem of Evil
> notwithstanding, chronic pain is not the universe punishing you. The
> story of Job is a stupid story.
>
> We *could* talk about pain as a mechanism for aversive learning,
> though. The chronic pain I suffer from has taught me how to (and that I
> must) moderately meter out my pain in order to avoid greater amounts of
> pain. Pain has taught me a great deal. It's not a punishment in the
> slightest sense of that word.
>
> On 8/26/21 9:44 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
> > It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and 
> > "self-preservation".  There is something incoherent about asserting that 
> > stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient features of 
> > stupidity is an inability to learn from experience.
> >
> > Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts?
> --
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>
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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Prof David West]

Glen is very sensitive to potential misrepresentation/misinterpretation of his 
words, as am I. I merely asked if Glen's sentences, which on their face seem to 
equate anti-vax and stupid, should be interpreted that way. In a sense I was 
trolling him because I know he would not make such a blanket and absolute 
assertion.

However, the entire tenor of the thread, and the public rhetoric regarding 
people holding anti-vax positions seems, to me, to be grounded in exactly this 
kind of assertion: "if _you_ (a person) are anti-vax _you_ are stupid (and 
probably a Trumpista or at least a Republican).

In my  opinion this kind of assertion is wrong, harmful, and, if your goal is 
to increase vaccination rates, entirely counter-productive.

davew


On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 10:55 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
> I addressed the stupid people vs stupid acts. Dave makes that 
> conflation. I don't.
> 
> But re: punishment - I also never claimed stupidity should be punished. 
> I claimed stupidity should be painful. As a person who inflicts pain on 
> myself daily, on purpose, it would be silly to identify pain with 
> punishment. Futher, many of us are affected by chronic pain, often of 
> unknown mechanism/origin. Sophistry about the problem of Evil 
> notwithstanding, chronic pain is not the universe punishing you. The 
> story of Job is a stupid story.
> 
> We *could* talk about pain as a mechanism for aversive learning, 
> though. The chronic pain I suffer from has taught me how to (and that I 
> must) moderately meter out my pain in order to avoid greater amounts of 
> pain. Pain has taught me a great deal. It's not a punishment in the 
> slightest sense of that word.
> 
> On 8/26/21 9:44 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> > It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and 
> > "self-preservation".  There is something incoherent about asserting that 
> > stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient features of 
> > stupidity is an inability to learn from experience.   
> > 
> > Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts?
> -- 
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Steve Smith]

uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
> ...  then it's a reasonable heuristic to skip all the extra words and ball up 
> all their actions and thoughts into the person. I try not to do that. And 
> based on my ability to have calm, civilized discussions with people who yell 
> spittle in my face, I think I do OK at it.

Which might be the main reason for anti-masker's spittle-laced diatribes
against masking?   It is harder to yell spittle into another's face when
one or both are covered with masks (and better yet face-shields?).

Spit on!

 - Steve



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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Steve Smith]

We could also deconflate "should" with "needs to be" in the sense that
the former is a social/moral judgement while the latter is intended to
be held a adaptive system feedback loop?

If we consider "stupid" to be all things "maladaptive" then "punishing"
those behaviours helps to winnow the population (of instances or
instances of behaviours) down to those which are more adaptive.

"stupidity needs to be punished" might be a tautology in this context?

> Glen, 
>
> It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and 
> "self-preservation".  There is something incoherent about asserting that 
> stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient features of 
> stupidity is an inability to learn from experience.   
>
> Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts?  
>
> N
>
> Nick Thompson
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 11:53 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>
> I suppose it all depends on what "anti-vax" means, eh? If you take "anti-vax" 
> to mean a kind of nihilistic "who cares?", then no. If you take "anti-vax" to 
> mean "the spike protein made by the body in response to the mRNA vaccines is 
> toxic", then yes. If you take "anti-vax" to mean "the vaccines contain 
> aborted fetal tissue and it would be immoral for me to inject that into my 
> body", then yes. Etc.
>
> By "anti-vax", most of Us the Enlightened are referring *not* to clear 
> thinking people who have a calculus for making such decisions. We're 
> referring to group thinkers who get the majority of their "scientific 
> information" from Facebook posts from their friends.
>
> A person who sincerely doubts ingesting the vaccines and bases that doubt on 
> controversial (not fully falsified nonsense) evidence would not be "anti-vax" 
> in my book. (I'm looking at Pieter! 8^D)
>
> If you base your analytical evaluation and conclusions on obvious stupidity, 
> then yes, I'd call your conclusions and analysis stupid. And stupidity must 
> be painful. But if you base your analytical evaluation and conclusions on the 
> truly questionable rhetoric put forth by others, then no, I'd call it 
> *skeptical*. And skepticism must be rewarded.
>
> I'm not anti-vax because, in general, I'm not anti-*, anti-anything. I'm not 
> really even anti-stupidity. I do stupid stuff all the time, come to stupid 
> conclusions all the time. That's mostly because I'm contrarian. But my 
> stupidity is painful and my contrary nature ensures that it is painful. In 
> the end, Marcus' rhetoric is right. Shun the anti-vax from institutions, 
> where reasonable. E.g. I intend to attend a small concert in September as a 
> birthday gift to both me and Renee'. However, entry at the door will require 
> evidence of vax status *or* a PCR test result dated within the last 48 hours. 
> And I think that's the right thing to do. If you're anti-vax, no King Buffalo 
> for you!
>
>
> On 8/26/21 8:27 AM, Prof David West wrote:
>> Glen stated:/"Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful."/
>>
>> Is it correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to stupidity in 
>> all cases without exception?
>>
>> Such an interpretation would certainly be consistent with the prevailing 
>> rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two groups: Them the stupid and Us 
>> the enlightened.
>>
>> Am I, for example, stupid; giving no regard to the basis of my being 
>> anti-vax, for me personally?
>>
>> [BTW, my analytical evaluation and conclusions did not stop me from 
>> getting vaccinated despite my antipathy. But my doing so was simply a 
>> matter of coercion.]
>>
>> davew
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 8:15 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
>>> Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient 
>>> or PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test 
>>> results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful.
>>>
>>> But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness.
>>>
>>> On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
 They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have 
 sufficient capacity.   Through a triage process they can prioritize.   It 
 must happen already, even if it isn't legal.  Oh, the local drug addict is 
 here again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors. 
  If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply 
 refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't 
 need to be a mandate.   And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting 
 allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.  No 
 shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service.

 -Original Message-
 From: Friam >>> > On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
 Sent: We

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[thompnickson2]

Ach!  My point was I don't think you need organisms, or minds, or any of the 
"hard" stuff, to run into the logical problems entailed in moving between 
levels of organization.  Perhaps I am just too old, too slow,  too HOT, too 
uninformed, to be in this argument, right now. Or ever?Not without some 
help in language mediation, anyway, from some of my trusties, who are absent 
from the conversation.   So, I bow out.   But I love you all.

N

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 2:08 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

Choosing a particular emotion misses the point, confuses the noise for the 
signal. The polyphenism, alone, demonstrates that starting with a particular 
emotion and working inversely from that phenotype to the generators is 
guaranteed to be a difficult problem ... you're guaranteeing that we stay stuck 
in this argument forever.

Instead, work on the forward map from generator to phenomenon. The article 
Roger posted goes a long way to helping us understand how to get from molecules 
(or tissue, at least) to either glucose regulation or storage/retrieval. And 
we're not talking about billiard balls. We're talking about ion channels, 
neuron firing, collections of neurons firing, anatomical tissue and patterns of 
firing correlated with such tissue, and finally spectral analyses of such 
firing patterns. That carries us along a forward map from molecules to 
consciousness (or, at least, perception).

And I don't think we're going to get to EricS' question without that 
compositional stack, because we're going to have to talk about which parts are 
Markovian and which parts are not (or are high-order Markovian).

On 8/26/21 9:34 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> I guess I think in levels of organization, and my rants are always of 
> the form, Grant Each Level Its Due and Do Not Confuse Them.  So you can 
> discuss the amygdala all you want, but you still have not described, or 
> identified, fear.
> 
>  
> 
> So, you ask, how would a person of my persuasion go about explaining 
> the relation between the molecules in my skin  and the excitation of those 
> elections that produce on my screen, what I am writing.  Never mind the 
> socalled hard problem (the problem of the soul). Let’s figure out a way to 
> talk about that.
> 
>  
> 
> Or for that matter, let’s make it even simpler:  Let’s talk about the 
> relation between the molecules of a cue  ball that result in the motion of 
> the eightball into a pocket and the loss of the game.   Let’s even do some 
> spherical cowing here and assume that one, and only one molecule of the cue 
> ball touches one and only one molecule of the eightball.  Is this a good 
> model?   Have I understood the question right?
> 
>  
> 
> I don’t think Nick should say “I am my fear.”  I think he should say 
> “I am the sum total of all the things that I do and that fear is one of the 
> things I do”.   Or, perhaps, to put it in terms of experience-monism, “I am 
> all that I experience and when I experience my flight behavior in relation to 
> my experience of my circumstances I experience my fear.”
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> I have to get back to that message from EricS that I bungled my response to.

--
☤>$ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

Choosing a particular emotion misses the point, confuses the noise for the 
signal. The polyphenism, alone, demonstrates that starting with a particular 
emotion and working inversely from that phenotype to the generators is 
guaranteed to be a difficult problem ... you're guaranteeing that we stay stuck 
in this argument forever.

Instead, work on the forward map from generator to phenomenon. The article 
Roger posted goes a long way to helping us understand how to get from molecules 
(or tissue, at least) to either glucose regulation or storage/retrieval. And 
we're not talking about billiard balls. We're talking about ion channels, 
neuron firing, collections of neurons firing, anatomical tissue and patterns of 
firing correlated with such tissue, and finally spectral analyses of such 
firing patterns. That carries us along a forward map from molecules to 
consciousness (or, at least, perception).

And I don't think we're going to get to EricS' question without that 
compositional stack, because we're going to have to talk about which parts are 
Markovian and which parts are not (or are high-order Markovian).

On 8/26/21 9:34 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> I guess I think in levels of organization, and my rants are always of the 
> form, Grant Each Level Its Due and Do Not Confuse Them.  So you can discuss 
> the amygdala all you want, but you still have not described, or identified, 
> fear.   
> 
>  
> 
> So, you ask, how would a person of my persuasion go about explaining the 
> relation between the molecules in my skin  and the excitation of those 
> elections that produce on my screen, what I am writing.  Never mind the 
> socalled hard problem (the problem of the soul). Let’s figure out a way to 
> talk about that. 
> 
>  
> 
> Or for that matter, let’s make it even simpler:  Let’s talk about the 
> relation between the molecules of a cue  ball that result in the motion of 
> the eightball into a pocket and the loss of the game.   Let’s even do some 
> spherical cowing here and assume that one, and only one molecule of the cue 
> ball touches one and only one molecule of the eightball.  Is this a good 
> model?   Have I understood the question right? 
> 
>  
> 
> I don’t think Nick should say “I am my fear.”  I think he should say “I am 
> the sum total of all the things that I do and that fear is one of the things 
> I do”.   Or, perhaps, to put it in terms of experience-monism, “I am all that 
> I experience and when I experience my flight behavior in relation to my 
> experience of my circumstances I experience my fear.” 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> I have to get back to that message from EricS that I bungled my response to.

-- 
☤>$ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Steve Smith]

In the spirit of multiple frequencies/scales or qualitative
dimensions/modes of aggregation:

What about the concern that habituating (and/or coercing) the entire
population of first-world (and much of third world) countries to
accepting (eagerly?) something which could credibly be as nefarious as
*another* pandemic or maybe a CRISPR-Cas9 edit?  

I'm not saying that *I* am acutely worried about this, but rather that
such a worry is not as absurd as it might sound.

Having hosted a conspiracy nut in my house for over a year, I'm at least
sensitive to the logic.   I don't, for example, worry that the
flouride/chlorine/bromine treatments used in "city water"  is part of a
nefarious plot for mass mind control by the illuminati.  But I *do*
acknowledge that if such a plot were afoot (by anyone) the drinking
water supply might be a good vector to spread such a thing very rapidly
(though these days, the bottled-water supply might penetrate
deeper/faster).  

So am I worried that *this* vaccine round is
sterilizing/mind-controlling/RFID-injecting people?  No.   But am I
worried that becoming habituated to one (or many) required vaccine
treatments on an annual (or seasonal?) opens a door to something
potentially *very* nefarious?  Yes.   How do we mitigate that? 

If you want to refuse this vaccine, great, just accept masking/isolation
in it's place and don't be surprised if when you have a car accident
that there are a finite number of beds in the ER/ICU set aside for
unvaccinated people which will likely be overwhelmed with people coming
in with acute COVID symptoms (since everyone else is either not
contracting COVID or not having severe symptoms)...

Can we acknowledge that "just because we are paranoid, that doesn't mean
nobody might be out to get us"?

- Steve

On 8/26/21 10:18 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> Anti-vax needs a justification that can survive peer review.   Because
> Tucker said so and I have a right to my liberty, etc. is not a
> justification.    One might be a concern about inflammation.    The
> vaccine will stimulate IGG-M production which could exacerbate some
> auto-immune conditions, and I have that auto-immune condition.    
>
>  
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Prof David West
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 26, 2021 8:28 AM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Glen stated:/"Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful."/
>
>  
>
> Is it correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to
> stupidity in all cases without exception?
>
>  
>
> Such an interpretation would certainly be consistent with the
> prevailing rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two groups: Them
> the stupid and Us the enlightened.
>
>  
>
> Am I, for example, stupid; giving no regard to the basis of my being
> anti-vax, for me personally?
>
>  
>
> [BTW, my analytical evaluation and conclusions did not stop me from
> getting vaccinated despite my antipathy. But my doing so was simply a
> matter of coercion.]
>
>  
>
> davew
>
>  
>
>  
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 8:15 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
>
> > Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient 
>
> > or PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test 
>
> > results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful.
>
> > 
>
> > But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness.
>
> > 
>
> > On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> > > They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd
> have sufficient capacity.   Through a triage process they can
> prioritize.   It must happen already, even if it isn't legal.  Oh, the
> local drug addict is here again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the
> attention of the doctors.  If enough big organizations like hospitals,
> grocery stores, etc. simply refuse to patronize people without
> evidence of vaccination, there doesn't need to be a mandate.   And it
> isn't just ERs, there are people getting allergy shots, getting
> physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.  No shirt, no shoes, no
> vaccination, no service.
>
> > > 
>
> > > -Original Message-
>
> > > From: Friam  > On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM
>
> > > To: friam@redfish.com 
>
> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>
> > > 
>
> > > That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is
> largely irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in
> unconscious with a gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's
> been vaccinated or not.
>
> > > 
>
> > > Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever
> walks in the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the
> change you suggest would require major legislative effort and,
> perhaps, re-architect the laws that govern public medicine. You're not
> gonna do that anytime soon.
>
> > > 
>
> > > Taking a look at this
> site: 

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

It's not a matter of being absolute or not. It's a matter of nit-picking the 
particular word used rather than trying to dig into the mechanism. Balling up 
the composition into "have", "are", or "doing" is all useless posturing. I 
don't care. Use "are" if you want. I don't care. It's silly to distinguish.

What I do care about is *how* we compose from part to whole. Superposition is, 
at least implies, a particular composition, a frequency domain, overlay. But 
I'd argue it's an impoverished one. The question is about the "hard problem", 
qualia, quality, etc. When you look at the experiments surrounding general 
anesthesia, with electrodes planted in various places on and in the body, you 
see time series that exhibit very long- and very short- term patterns. 
Consciousness can be quantified based on these time series (and spectral 
analyses of them). You can do the same with semi-conscious sedation. They are 
not superpositions so much as sequential modes, iterative feedback loops, 
waxing and waning in intensity ... waves upon carrier waves. So superposition 
is necessary, but insufficient.

Anyone who wants to talk about emotions and things like qualia or sense of 
self, has to talk about such things. If they don't, they're merely talking to 
hear themselves speak.

On 8/26/21 10:16 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
> uǝlƃ ☤>$
>> Ouch! Dude. No! 8^D You're committing the same sin Nick commits. 
> I understand that I was being provocative with the specific formulation
> "we ARE" as if it were an absolute.
>> To say we "are" our emotions ignores the composition, the algebra by which 
>> parts compose the whole.
> I agree and only wanted to add to the composition "are" along with
> "have" and "act-out" .
>> The point is the very high order conscious *attention* to lower order 
>> frequencies. Not all is one. There are many parts to organize. How are they 
>> organized?
> 
> To what extent are our identities/sense-of-self (inner experience and
> outer presentation) the superposition of our "emotions"?   yes, we are
> more and less than that, yet for some purposes it seems we ARE that.


-- 
☤>$ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[Curt McNamara]

Locating at least one kind of fear:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0006156

Billiard ball contact:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_mechanics

Bucky spends a lot of time talking about our flat earth / Newtonian view of
Universe, while Einstein clearly showed us how things actually worked.

Many hits on kinds of fear, Psych Today says there are only 5:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/brainsnacks/201203/the-only-5-fears-we-all-share

My guess is that fear >> the subconscious takes precedence over the
conscious / rational. It has survival basis, so some of the types are
'hard-wired'.

Many of the strategies for dealing with fear are labeled grounding.
https://talkiatry.com/blog/grounding-techniques-anxiety-coping-strategies/

 Curt

Curt

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 11:39 AM  wrote:

> I hope EricC picks this up.  He has been too absent lately.  Damn him for
> having gotten an interesting job.
>
>
>
> I guess I think in levels of organization, and my rants are always of the
> form, Grant Each Level Its Due and Do Not Confuse Them.  So you can
> discuss the amygdala all you want, but you still have not described, or
> identified, fear.
>
>
>
> So, you ask, how would a person of my persuasion go about explaining the
> relation between the molecules in my skin  and the excitation of those
> elections that produce on my screen, what I am writing.  Never mind the
> socalled hard problem (the problem of the soul). Let’s figure out a way to
> talk about that.
>
>
>
> Or for that matter, let’s make it even simpler:  Let’s talk about the
> relation between the molecules of a cue  ball that result in the motion of
> the eightball into a pocket and the loss of the game.   Let’s even do some
> spherical cowing here and assume that one, and only one molecule of the cue
> ball touches one and only one molecule of the eightball.  Is this a good
> model?   Have I understood the question right?
>
>
>
> I don’t think Nick should say “I am my fear.”  I think he should say “I am
> the sum total of all the things that I do and that fear is one of the
> things I do”.   Or, perhaps, to put it in terms of experience-monism, “I am
> all that I experience and when I experience my flight behavior in relation
> to my experience of my circumstances I experience my fear.”
>
>
>
>
>
> I have to get back to that message from EricS that I bungled my response
> to.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 11:24 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions
>
>
>
> Very nice! What I keep *wanting* to hear from Nick or EricC is a mechanism
> by which very tiny, very fast processes inside the body interact with very
> tiny, very fast processes outside the body. I.e. a demonstration (or simply
> rhetoric) of membrane openness (permeability, lack of closure). I.e. not
> all tiny/fast processes are bundled up into larger/slower processes at the
> interface between inside and outside.
>
>
>
> If they made that (inherently compositional) argument, then ... then then
> then, we could talk about a taxonomy of process from tiny/fast to
> huge/slow, across spatiotemporal and functional scales. And with such a
> taxonomy, we could talk about which ones facilitate the Markovian processes
> EricS mentioned, required to successfully challenge "the hard problem" from
> a behaviorist perspective.
>
>
>
>
>
> On 8/26/21 8:05 AM, Curt McNamara wrote:
>
> > Bucky Fuller on apprehension / comprehension of systems:
>
> > http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s05/figs/f0901.html
>
> > 
>
> >
>
> > We ignore larger / slower frequencies. We also ignore smaller / faster
> frequencies.
>
> > http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s05/p0600.html#509.01
>
> > 
>
> >
>
> >Curt
>
> >
>
> > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 9:55 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$  > wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Ouch! Dude. No! 8^D You're committing the same sin Nick commits. To
> say we "are" our emotions ignores the composition, the algebra by which
> parts compose the whole.
>
> >
>
> > The point is the very high order conscious *attention* to lower
> order frequencies. Not all is one. There are many parts to organize. How
> are they organized?
>
> >
>
> > On 8/26/21 7:50 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
>
> > >
>
> > >>  E.g. when Bob wakes up startled, he interprets the situation
> into "fear". But when Sally wakes up startled, she interprets the situation
> into "excitement" or some other /a priori/, socially limiting, filter
> category.
>
> > > Thus my earlier suggestion that "we" "are" our emotions?   Bob
> *is* his
>
> > > propensity to read the lower-level response of "star

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[Steve Smith]

I like the gesture of these works... that our apprehension of systems is
somehow the modulation of our coupling with them at different
frequencies (and thus scales)...   which is not the same as simply
"filtering"

It does seem as if "thinking" in it's broadest sense is a form of
coupling one's (somewhat isolated/insulated) dynamical system with
another external (ideally somewhat isolated) system.    This is the
"scoping" that happens in formal and informal modeling (analogy,
metaphor, etc.).

In one extreme, "mathematical thinking" couples logic with axioms, in
another, a highly trained/practiced predator/prey/hunter/gatherer
engages in an arbitrarily complex milieu (ecosystem, landscape) in a
highly effective way to optimize some kind of internal goals.   In the
middle would seem to be the range of "games" from crossword puzzles,
sodoku, tic-tac-toe, chess, go to croquet, soccer, cricket, competitive
curling, mixed martial arts, bare-knuckle big-game hunting.

Calling this "thinking", of course, diminishes what is more properly
called "being" I think ("I am"?) no matter if Descartes wanted to reduce
(human) being to (mere) thinking?

- Steve

On 8/26/21 9:05 AM, Curt McNamara wrote:
> Bucky Fuller on apprehension / comprehension of systems:
> http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s05/figs/f0901.html
> 
>
> We ignore larger / slower frequencies. We also ignore smaller / faster
> frequencies.
> http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s05/p0600.html#509.01
> 
>
>    Curt
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 9:55 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$  > wrote:
>
> Ouch! Dude. No! 8^D You're committing the same sin Nick commits.
> To say we "are" our emotions ignores the composition, the algebra
> by which parts compose the whole.
>
> The point is the very high order conscious *attention* to lower
> order frequencies. Not all is one. There are many parts to
> organize. How are they organized?
>
> On 8/26/21 7:50 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
> >
> >>  E.g. when Bob wakes up startled, he interprets the situation
> into "fear". But when Sally wakes up startled, she interprets the
> situation into "excitement" or some other /a priori/, socially
> limiting, filter category.
> > Thus my earlier suggestion that "we" "are" our emotions?   Bob
> *is* his
> > propensity to read the lower-level response of "startlement"
> (closer to
> > autonomic) to "fear" (closer to choice).   Sally also as
> "excitement".
>
>
> -- 
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Kill it!

[Marcus Daniels]

Having pets I adore and also seeing the reality of feral cats, it is hard not 
to see humans through a similar lens.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 10:01 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Kill it!

Culling is easy, and they are delicious! Kung Pao Meow!

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 10:23 AM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
I have seen what happens when ferals proliferate.   Out in the country it is 
common to have a few non-domesticated cats around, but they can proliferate 
amongst households.  Look out the window, there is some hunt that is on.   
Culling is easy though.

> On Aug 26, 2021, at 7:08 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ 
> mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> So, a wildlife ecologist friend of mine (who meatspace introduced me to 
> Looney (WSDA employee who discovered murder hornets here (who also hangs at 
> the local pub) [‡])) argues that domestic cats, as an invasive species, are 
> more horrifying than murder hornets, or english ivy, or the new zealand 
> mudsnail, etc. He focuses on how they're merely killing machines, with which 
> I agree. And goes with the usual "keep them inside" rhetoric.
>
> But I think I landed on an argument that he couldn't respond to. The typical 
> evolutionary argument against domestic cats is that we neuter/spay the ones 
> with the qualities we like, leaving the ferals to reproduce and evolve. And 
> there's plenty of evidence that a clowder of ferals wreaks more havoc on a 
> local ecosystem than a disorganized collection of house cats ever does. 
> (Distributions of house cats territory drop off at more than ~100 m from 
> their home. So unless the cat lives on the border of a wild area, it's impact 
> on wild life is quite small. In contrast, feral clowders end up in wilder 
> areas.)
>
> To boot, I have an anecdote. When we moved into this house, which is 
> buttressed by a fairly wild ravine with owls and wild rabbits and such, there 
> was a feral clowder living in a dilapidated house at the crook of the ravine 
> (which leads down toward capitol lake). Our alpha, Scooter, kept fighting 
> with at least one of these ferals. He lost quite badly one time, but due to 
> our policy of universal healthcare, Scooter lives to fight again. Now the 
> feral clowder is gone, thereby saving the lives of who knows how many little 
> critters in the ravine. Scooter sporadically brings home a mouse, mole, or 
> "little brown bird". But it's pretty rare now that he's pushing 12 or 13. So, 
> we could say he's an ecologically ethical hunter, even if it's unintentional.
>
> In the end, though, my wildlife eco friend just loves dogs and hates cats. 
> 8^D My guess is his cognitive structure is more dog-like and mine is more 
> cat-like, after decades of being programmed by our pets.
>
>
> [‡] 
> https://www.sciencenews.org/article/asian-giant-murder-hornets-new-map-habitat-united-states
>
>> On 8/24/21 4:39 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
>> My first reaction to the subject line is one of my favorite parody
>> attributions to redneck culture:  "it's Diffr'nt, kill it!" but then I
>> read the content and realized it was more apropos than I expected.
>>
>> I believe that something like "xenophobia" is an adaptive response in
>> many contexts...  we have some pretty deep instincts it seems that let
>> us know to be "askeered" of "spiders and snakes" even if we'd never seen
>> another ape respond that way.  My dog has always been very (properly)
>> fearful of snakes...  otherwise her natural curious aggression would
>> have had her dead-by-snakebite long ago...   she went crazy everytime
>> she saw a rattlesnake but always barked crazily from a good 6-10 feet
>> away.   She never alerted to a non-rattler that I knew of.And in the
>> arms race of survival, it is natural that some "skeery" things will
>> camoflauge as benign or friendly or cute.
>>
>> I am always a little nervous when large movements (especially gubbm'nt
>> supported ) try to tap those instincts.  It seems like a bad precedent
>> to encourage formalized xenophobia even against helpless insects.   The
>> Charlottesville (and too many other) white-nationalists chanting "jews
>> will not replace us" and all of Trump's fear-mongering are obvious (and
>> ugly), but aspects of the B(lack) L(ives) M(atter) movement that perhaps
>> overstated police culpability (in general not in specific cases), and
>> Hillary's unfortunate election-forfieting statement calling Trump
>> supporters "deplorables" (plenty of them were, but the brush was too
>> broad and there was probably at least some backlash turnout over that
>> one).  Her "superpredator" comments, etc. in the 90's are another
>> example.
>>
>> As for me, I have a nicely expanding set of stands of what is know
>> locally as "Guaco" (critical to the black on black pottery process) in
>> the pueblo nearby but more commonly known as "beeweed" among anglos...
>> it turns out to be a par

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[Steve Smith]

uǝlƃ ☤>$
> Ouch! Dude. No! 8^D You're committing the same sin Nick commits. 
I understand that I was being provocative with the specific formulation
"we ARE" as if it were an absolute.
> To say we "are" our emotions ignores the composition, the algebra by which 
> parts compose the whole.
I agree and only wanted to add to the composition "are" along with
"have" and "act-out" .
> The point is the very high order conscious *attention* to lower order 
> frequencies. Not all is one. There are many parts to organize. How are they 
> organized?

To what extent are our identities/sense-of-self (inner experience and
outer presentation) the superposition of our "emotions"?   yes, we are
more and less than that, yet for some purposes it seems we ARE that.










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Re: [FRIAM] Kill it!

[Gary Schiltz]

Culling is easy, and they are delicious! Kung Pao Meow!

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 10:23 AM Marcus Daniels 
wrote:

> I have seen what happens when ferals proliferate.   Out in the country it
> is common to have a few non-domesticated cats around, but they can
> proliferate amongst households.  Look out the window, there is some hunt
> that is on.   Culling is easy though.
>
> > On Aug 26, 2021, at 7:08 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:
> >
> > So, a wildlife ecologist friend of mine (who meatspace introduced me to
> Looney (WSDA employee who discovered murder hornets here (who also hangs at
> the local pub) [‡])) argues that domestic cats, as an invasive species, are
> more horrifying than murder hornets, or english ivy, or the new zealand
> mudsnail, etc. He focuses on how they're merely killing machines, with
> which I agree. And goes with the usual "keep them inside" rhetoric.
> >
> > But I think I landed on an argument that he couldn't respond to. The
> typical evolutionary argument against domestic cats is that we neuter/spay
> the ones with the qualities we like, leaving the ferals to reproduce and
> evolve. And there's plenty of evidence that a clowder of ferals wreaks more
> havoc on a local ecosystem than a disorganized collection of house cats
> ever does. (Distributions of house cats territory drop off at more than
> ~100 m from their home. So unless the cat lives on the border of a wild
> area, it's impact on wild life is quite small. In contrast, feral clowders
> end up in wilder areas.)
> >
> > To boot, I have an anecdote. When we moved into this house, which is
> buttressed by a fairly wild ravine with owls and wild rabbits and such,
> there was a feral clowder living in a dilapidated house at the crook of the
> ravine (which leads down toward capitol lake). Our alpha, Scooter, kept
> fighting with at least one of these ferals. He lost quite badly one time,
> but due to our policy of universal healthcare, Scooter lives to fight
> again. Now the feral clowder is gone, thereby saving the lives of who knows
> how many little critters in the ravine. Scooter sporadically brings home a
> mouse, mole, or "little brown bird". But it's pretty rare now that he's
> pushing 12 or 13. So, we could say he's an ecologically ethical hunter,
> even if it's unintentional.
> >
> > In the end, though, my wildlife eco friend just loves dogs and hates
> cats. 8^D My guess is his cognitive structure is more dog-like and mine is
> more cat-like, after decades of being programmed by our pets.
> >
> >
> > [‡]
> https://www.sciencenews.org/article/asian-giant-murder-hornets-new-map-habitat-united-states
> >
> >> On 8/24/21 4:39 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
> >> My first reaction to the subject line is one of my favorite parody
> >> attributions to redneck culture:  "it's Diffr'nt, kill it!" but then I
> >> read the content and realized it was more apropos than I expected.
> >>
> >> I believe that something like "xenophobia" is an adaptive response in
> >> many contexts...  we have some pretty deep instincts it seems that let
> >> us know to be "askeered" of "spiders and snakes" even if we'd never seen
> >> another ape respond that way.  My dog has always been very (properly)
> >> fearful of snakes...  otherwise her natural curious aggression would
> >> have had her dead-by-snakebite long ago...   she went crazy everytime
> >> she saw a rattlesnake but always barked crazily from a good 6-10 feet
> >> away.   She never alerted to a non-rattler that I knew of.And in the
> >> arms race of survival, it is natural that some "skeery" things will
> >> camoflauge as benign or friendly or cute.
> >>
> >> I am always a little nervous when large movements (especially gubbm'nt
> >> supported ) try to tap those instincts.  It seems like a bad precedent
> >> to encourage formalized xenophobia even against helpless insects.   The
> >> Charlottesville (and too many other) white-nationalists chanting "jews
> >> will not replace us" and all of Trump's fear-mongering are obvious (and
> >> ugly), but aspects of the B(lack) L(ives) M(atter) movement that perhaps
> >> overstated police culpability (in general not in specific cases), and
> >> Hillary's unfortunate election-forfieting statement calling Trump
> >> supporters "deplorables" (plenty of them were, but the brush was too
> >> broad and there was probably at least some backlash turnout over that
> >> one).  Her "superpredator" comments, etc. in the 90's are another
> >> example.
> >>
> >> As for me, I have a nicely expanding set of stands of what is know
> >> locally as "Guaco" (critical to the black on black pottery process) in
> >> the pueblo nearby but more commonly known as "beeweed" among anglos...
> >> it turns out to be a particularly attractive nectar source for the
> >> Tarantula Hawk (or Tarantula Wasp), a big ole blue-black  beast that
> >> looks like it could stun you with a sting and drag you to it's
> >> underground lair where it would insert it's fertilized eggs into your
> >> abdome

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

I addressed the stupid people vs stupid acts. Dave makes that conflation. I 
don't.

But re: punishment - I also never claimed stupidity should be punished. I 
claimed stupidity should be painful. As a person who inflicts pain on myself 
daily, on purpose, it would be silly to identify pain with punishment. Futher, 
many of us are affected by chronic pain, often of unknown mechanism/origin. 
Sophistry about the problem of Evil notwithstanding, chronic pain is not the 
universe punishing you. The story of Job is a stupid story.

We *could* talk about pain as a mechanism for aversive learning, though. The 
chronic pain I suffer from has taught me how to (and that I must) moderately 
meter out my pain in order to avoid greater amounts of pain. Pain has taught me 
a great deal. It's not a punishment in the slightest sense of that word.

On 8/26/21 9:44 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and 
> "self-preservation".  There is something incoherent about asserting that 
> stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient features of 
> stupidity is an inability to learn from experience.   
> 
> Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts?
-- 
☤>$ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[thompnickson2]

Glen, 

I bow to your greater experience.  Anybody who can hang into a conversation 
about vaccines while being spittled at is made of sturner stuff than I.  If 
nothing else, the irony would kill me.  

Nick 

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:50 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

I'm fairly certain *I* never called any person stupid. I don't even think 
anti-vaxxers are stupid people just because the thoughts they're thinking, and 
their lack of action is stupid. That Dave conflates calling an anti-vaxer 
stupid vs. calling an anti-vaxxer's anti-vax stance stupid, indicates something 
about Dave, not about me.

So, to be clear, being anti-vax is stupid. But the anti-vaxxer that is anti-vax 
is not (necessarily) stupid. If, however, a given person's actions-thoughts are 
overwhelmingly stupid, like 90% of their actions and thoughts are stupid 
actions and stupid thoughts, then it's a reasonable heuristic to skip all the 
extra words and ball up all their actions and thoughts into the person. I try 
not to do that. And based on my ability to have calm, civilized discussions 
with people who yell spittle in my face, I think I do OK at it.

On 8/26/21 9:38 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> I agree, Dave, that calling other people stupid is stupid, even though it is 
> deeply satisfying and great for organizing lynch parties.
> 
>  
> 
> Nick
> 
>  
> 
> Nick Thompson
> 
> thompnicks...@gmail.com 
> 
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Prof David 
> West
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 26, 2021 11:28 AM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Glen stated:/"Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful."/
> 
>  
> 
> Is it correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to stupidity in 
> all cases without exception?
> 
>  
> 
> Such an interpretation would certainly be consistent with the prevailing 
> rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two groups: Them the stupid and Us 
> the enlightened.
> 
>  
> 
> Am I, for example, stupid; giving no regard to the basis of my being 
> anti-vax, for me personally?
> 
>  
> 
> [BTW, my analytical evaluation and conclusions did not stop me from 
> getting vaccinated despite my antipathy. But my doing so was simply a 
> matter of coercion.]
> 
>  
> 
> davew
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 8:15 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
> 
>> Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient
> 
>> or PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test
> 
>> results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful.
> 
>> 
> 
>> But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness.
> 
>> 
> 
>> On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> 
>> > They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have 
>> > sufficient capacity.   Through a triage process they can prioritize.   It 
>> > must happen already, even if it isn't legal.  Oh, the local drug addict is 
>> > here again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors. 
>> >  If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply 
>> > refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't 
>> > need to be a mandate.   And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting 
>> > allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.  No 
>> > shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service.
> 
>> > 
> 
>> > -Original Message-
> 
>> > From: Friam > > > On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> 
>> > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM
> 
>> > To: friam@redfish.com 
> 
>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> 
>> > 
> 
>> > That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely 
>> > irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a 
>> > gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not.
> 
>> > 
> 
>> > Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in 
>> > the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you 
>> > suggest would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect 
>> > the laws that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime 
>> > soon.
> 
>> > 
> 
>> > Taking a look at this site: 
>> > https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-
>> > data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours 
>> > > > -data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours>
> 
>> > it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The 
>> > actual problem is insuf

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

I'm fairly certain *I* never called any person stupid. I don't even think 
anti-vaxxers are stupid people just because the thoughts they're thinking, and 
their lack of action is stupid. That Dave conflates calling an anti-vaxer 
stupid vs. calling an anti-vaxxer's anti-vax stance stupid, indicates something 
about Dave, not about me.

So, to be clear, being anti-vax is stupid. But the anti-vaxxer that is anti-vax 
is not (necessarily) stupid. If, however, a given person's actions-thoughts are 
overwhelmingly stupid, like 90% of their actions and thoughts are stupid 
actions and stupid thoughts, then it's a reasonable heuristic to skip all the 
extra words and ball up all their actions and thoughts into the person. I try 
not to do that. And based on my ability to have calm, civilized discussions 
with people who yell spittle in my face, I think I do OK at it.

On 8/26/21 9:38 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> I agree, Dave, that calling other people stupid is stupid, even though it is 
> deeply satisfying and great for organizing lynch parties.
> 
>  
> 
> Nick
> 
>  
> 
> Nick Thompson
> 
> thompnicks...@gmail.com 
> 
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Prof David West
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 26, 2021 11:28 AM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Glen stated:/"Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful."/
> 
>  
> 
> Is it correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to stupidity in 
> all cases without exception?
> 
>  
> 
> Such an interpretation would certainly be consistent with the prevailing 
> rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two groups: Them the stupid and Us 
> the enlightened.
> 
>  
> 
> Am I, for example, stupid; giving no regard to the basis of my being 
> anti-vax, for me personally?
> 
>  
> 
> [BTW, my analytical evaluation and conclusions did not stop me from getting 
> vaccinated despite my antipathy. But my doing so was simply a matter of 
> coercion.]
> 
>  
> 
> davew
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 8:15 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
> 
>> Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient 
> 
>> or PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test 
> 
>> results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful.
> 
>> 
> 
>> But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness.
> 
>> 
> 
>> On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> 
>> > They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have 
>> > sufficient capacity.   Through a triage process they can prioritize.   It 
>> > must happen already, even if it isn't legal.  Oh, the local drug addict is 
>> > here again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors. 
>> >  If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply 
>> > refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't 
>> > need to be a mandate.   And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting 
>> > allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.  No 
>> > shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service.
> 
>> > 
> 
>> > -Original Message-
> 
>> > From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> 
>> > On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> 
>> > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM
> 
>> > To: friam@redfish.com 
> 
>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> 
>> > 
> 
>> > That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely 
>> > irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a 
>> > gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not.
> 
>> > 
> 
>> > Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in 
>> > the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you 
>> > suggest would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect 
>> > the laws that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime 
>> > soon.
> 
>> > 
> 
>> > Taking a look at this site: 
>> > https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours
>> >  
>> > 
> 
>> > it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The 
>> > actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid 
>> > patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem.
> 
>> > 
> 
>> > 
> 
>> > On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> 
>> >> Will you consent to a vaccine?  
> 
>> >>
> 
>> >> Yes:  You get treatment for your non-COVID condition.  No:  Get lost.  
> 
>> >>
> 
>> >> -Original Message-
> 
>> >> From: Friam > >> > On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> 
>> >> Sen

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[thompnickson2]

Glen, 

It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and 
"self-preservation".  There is something incoherent about asserting that stupid 
people need to be punished, because one of the salient features of stupidity is 
an inability to learn from experience.   

Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts?  

N

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 11:53 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

I suppose it all depends on what "anti-vax" means, eh? If you take "anti-vax" 
to mean a kind of nihilistic "who cares?", then no. If you take "anti-vax" to 
mean "the spike protein made by the body in response to the mRNA vaccines is 
toxic", then yes. If you take "anti-vax" to mean "the vaccines contain aborted 
fetal tissue and it would be immoral for me to inject that into my body", then 
yes. Etc.

By "anti-vax", most of Us the Enlightened are referring *not* to clear thinking 
people who have a calculus for making such decisions. We're referring to group 
thinkers who get the majority of their "scientific information" from Facebook 
posts from their friends.

A person who sincerely doubts ingesting the vaccines and bases that doubt on 
controversial (not fully falsified nonsense) evidence would not be "anti-vax" 
in my book. (I'm looking at Pieter! 8^D)

If you base your analytical evaluation and conclusions on obvious stupidity, 
then yes, I'd call your conclusions and analysis stupid. And stupidity must be 
painful. But if you base your analytical evaluation and conclusions on the 
truly questionable rhetoric put forth by others, then no, I'd call it 
*skeptical*. And skepticism must be rewarded.

I'm not anti-vax because, in general, I'm not anti-*, anti-anything. I'm not 
really even anti-stupidity. I do stupid stuff all the time, come to stupid 
conclusions all the time. That's mostly because I'm contrarian. But my 
stupidity is painful and my contrary nature ensures that it is painful. In the 
end, Marcus' rhetoric is right. Shun the anti-vax from institutions, where 
reasonable. E.g. I intend to attend a small concert in September as a birthday 
gift to both me and Renee'. However, entry at the door will require evidence of 
vax status *or* a PCR test result dated within the last 48 hours. And I think 
that's the right thing to do. If you're anti-vax, no King Buffalo for you!


On 8/26/21 8:27 AM, Prof David West wrote:
> 
> Glen stated:/"Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful."/
> 
> Is it correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to stupidity in 
> all cases without exception?
> 
> Such an interpretation would certainly be consistent with the prevailing 
> rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two groups: Them the stupid and Us 
> the enlightened.
> 
> Am I, for example, stupid; giving no regard to the basis of my being 
> anti-vax, for me personally?
> 
> [BTW, my analytical evaluation and conclusions did not stop me from 
> getting vaccinated despite my antipathy. But my doing so was simply a 
> matter of coercion.]
> 
> davew
> 
> 
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 8:15 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
>> Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient 
>> or PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test 
>> results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful.
>> 
>> But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness.
>> 
>> On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> > They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have 
>> > sufficient capacity.   Through a triage process they can prioritize.   It 
>> > must happen already, even if it isn't legal.  Oh, the local drug addict is 
>> > here again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors. 
>> >  If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply 
>> > refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't 
>> > need to be a mandate.   And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting 
>> > allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.  No 
>> > shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service.
>> > 
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: Friam > > > On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>> > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM
>> > To: friam@redfish.com 
>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>> > 
>> > That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely 
>> > irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a 
>> > gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not.
>> > 
>> > Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in 
>> > the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you 
>> > suggest would require major le

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[thompnickson2]

I agree, Dave, that calling other people stupid is stupid, even though it is 
deeply satisfying and great for organizing lynch parties. 

 

Nick 

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 11:28 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

 

 

Glen stated: "Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful."

 

Is it correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to stupidity in all 
cases without exception?

 

Such an interpretation would certainly be consistent with the prevailing 
rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two groups: Them the stupid and Us the 
enlightened.

 

Am I, for example, stupid; giving no regard to the basis of my being anti-vax, 
for me personally?

 

[BTW, my analytical evaluation and conclusions did not stop me from getting 
vaccinated despite my antipathy. But my doing so was simply a matter of 
coercion.]

 

davew

 

 

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 8:15 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:

> Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient 

> or PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test 

> results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful.

> 

> But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness.

> 

> On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

> > They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have 
> > sufficient capacity.   Through a triage process they can prioritize.   It 
> > must happen already, even if it isn't legal.  Oh, the local drug addict is 
> > here again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors.  
> > If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply 
> > refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't 
> > need to be a mandate.   And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting 
> > allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.  No 
> > shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service.

> > 

> > -Original Message-

> > From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > 
> > On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$

> > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM

> > To: friam@redfish.com  

> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

> > 

> > That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely 
> > irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a 
> > gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not.

> > 

> > Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in 
> > the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you suggest 
> > would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect the laws 
> > that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon.

> > 

> > Taking a look at this site: 
> > https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours

> > it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The 
> > actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid 
> > patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem.

> > 

> > 

> > On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

> >> Will you consent to a vaccine?  

> >>

> >> Yes:  You get treatment for your non-COVID condition.  No:  Get lost.  

> >>

> >> -Original Message-

> >> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> 
> >> > On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$

> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM

> >> To: friam@redfish.com  

> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

> >>

> >> Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. 
> >> (Last I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm 
> >> sure it's location dependent.) They're regular people with regular 
> >> problems, many of whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to 
> >> lockdowns. We did a little too much "just in time" logistical planning 
> >> with our hospitals and this fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our 
> >> buffer wasn't high enough.

> >>

> >> The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and 
> >> take care of both covid patients and regular people.

> >>

> >>

> >> On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

> >>> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals?  Just don't let 
> >>> them in.

> >>>

> >>> -Original Message-

> >>> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> 
> >>> > On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$

> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM

> >>> To: friam@redfish.com  

> >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

> >>>

> >>> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, 
> >>> eve

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[thompnickson2]

I hope EricC picks this up.  He has been too absent lately.  Damn him for 
having gotten an interesting job. 

 

I guess I think in levels of organization, and my rants are always of the form, 
Grant Each Level Its Due and Do Not Confuse Them.  So you can discuss the 
amygdala all you want, but you still have not described, or identified, fear.   

 

So, you ask, how would a person of my persuasion go about explaining the 
relation between the molecules in my skin  and the excitation of those 
elections that produce on my screen, what I am writing.  Never mind the 
socalled hard problem (the problem of the soul). Let’s figure out a way to talk 
about that.  

 

Or for that matter, let’s make it even simpler:  Let’s talk about the relation 
between the molecules of a cue  ball that result in the motion of the eightball 
into a pocket and the loss of the game.   Let’s even do some spherical cowing 
here and assume that one, and only one molecule of the cue ball touches one and 
only one molecule of the eightball.  Is this a good model?   Have I understood 
the question right?  

 

I don’t think Nick should say “I am my fear.”  I think he should say “I am the 
sum total of all the things that I do and that fear is one of the things I do”. 
  Or, perhaps, to put it in terms of experience-monism, “I am all that I 
experience and when I experience my flight behavior in relation to my 
experience of my circumstances I experience my fear.”  

 

 

I have to get back to that message from EricS that I bungled my response to. 

 

 

 

Nick 

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 11:24 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

 

Very nice! What I keep *wanting* to hear from Nick or EricC is a mechanism by 
which very tiny, very fast processes inside the body interact with very tiny, 
very fast processes outside the body. I.e. a demonstration (or simply rhetoric) 
of membrane openness (permeability, lack of closure). I.e. not all tiny/fast 
processes are bundled up into larger/slower processes at the interface between 
inside and outside.

 

If they made that (inherently compositional) argument, then ... then then then, 
we could talk about a taxonomy of process from tiny/fast to huge/slow, across 
spatiotemporal and functional scales. And with such a taxonomy, we could talk 
about which ones facilitate the Markovian processes EricS mentioned, required 
to successfully challenge "the hard problem" from a behaviorist perspective.

 

 

On 8/26/21 8:05 AM, Curt McNamara wrote:

> Bucky Fuller on apprehension / comprehension of systems:

>   
> http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s05/figs/f0901.html 

> <  
> http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s05/figs/f0901.html>

> 

> We ignore larger / slower frequencies. We also ignore smaller / faster 
> frequencies.

>   
> http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s05/p0600.html#509.01 

> <  
> http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s05/p0600.html#509.01>

> 

>Curt

> 

> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 9:55 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$ < 
>  
> geprope...@gmail.com > wrote:

> 

> Ouch! Dude. No! 8^D You're committing the same sin Nick commits. To say 
> we "are" our emotions ignores the composition, the algebra by which parts 
> compose the whole.

> 

> The point is the very high order conscious *attention* to lower order 
> frequencies. Not all is one. There are many parts to organize. How are they 
> organized?

> 

> On 8/26/21 7:50 AM, Steve Smith wrote:

> >

> >>  E.g. when Bob wakes up startled, he interprets the situation into 
> "fear". But when Sally wakes up startled, she interprets the situation into 
> "excitement" or some other /a priori/, socially limiting, filter category.

> > Thus my earlier suggestion that "we" "are" our emotions?   Bob *is* his

> > propensity to read the lower-level response of "startlement" (closer to

> > autonomic) to "fear" (closer to choice).   Sally also as "excitement".

> 

> 

> -- 

> ☤>$ uǝlƃ

> 

> -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .

> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam < 
>  http://bit.ly/virtualfriam>

> un/subscribe   
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com < 
>  
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com>

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Marcus Daniels]

Anti-vax needs a justification that can survive peer review.   Because Tucker 
said so and I have a right to my liberty, etc. is not a justification.One 
might be a concern about inflammation.The vaccine will stimulate IGG-M 
production which could exacerbate some auto-immune conditions, and I have that 
auto-immune condition.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 8:28 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side


Glen stated: "Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful."

Is it correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to stupidity in all 
cases without exception?

Such an interpretation would certainly be consistent with the prevailing 
rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two groups: Them the stupid and Us the 
enlightened.

Am I, for example, stupid; giving no regard to the basis of my being anti-vax, 
for me personally?

[BTW, my analytical evaluation and conclusions did not stop me from getting 
vaccinated despite my antipathy. But my doing so was simply a matter of 
coercion.]

davew


On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 8:15 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
> Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient
> or PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test
> results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful.
>
> But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness.
>
> On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have 
> > sufficient capacity.   Through a triage process they can prioritize.   It 
> > must happen already, even if it isn't legal.  Oh, the local drug addict is 
> > here again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors.  
> > If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply 
> > refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't 
> > need to be a mandate.   And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting 
> > allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.  No 
> > shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> 
> > On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM
> > To: friam@redfish.com
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> >
> > That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely 
> > irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a 
> > gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not.
> >
> > Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in 
> > the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you suggest 
> > would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect the laws 
> > that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon.
> >
> > Taking a look at this site: 
> > https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours
> > it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The 
> > actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid 
> > patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem.
> >
> >
> > On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >> Will you consent to a vaccine?
> >>
> >> Yes:  You get treatment for your non-COVID condition.  No:  Get lost.
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> 
> >> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM
> >> To: friam@redfish.com
> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> >>
> >> Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. 
> >> (Last I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm 
> >> sure it's location dependent.) They're regular people with regular 
> >> problems, many of whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to 
> >> lockdowns. We did a little too much "just in time" logistical planning 
> >> with our hospitals and this fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our 
> >> buffer wasn't high enough.
> >>
> >> The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and 
> >> take care of both covid patients and regular people.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >>> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals?  Just don't let 
> >>> them in.
> >>>
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> 
> >>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM
> >>> To: friam@redfish.com
> >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> >>>
> >>> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, 
> >>> everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us 
>

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Jochen Fromm]

I am reading "The Origins of Political Order" from Francis Fukuyama at the 
moment and one thing I noticed is that the 4 classes from India's caste system 
actually represent the division into religion (Brahmins, priestly class), 
military (Kshatriyas, warrior class), economy (Vaishyas, merchant class) and 
others (Shudras, manual 
workers)https://www.dw.com/en/indias-caste-system-weakened-but-still-influential/a-39718124The
 Greek philosopher Empedocles argued the world is made of four elements - fire, 
earth, air and water. There are no such elements, but there are indeed four 
phases of matter - plasma, solid, gas and 
liquid.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_(matter)This means that the ancient 
Greeks and the ancient Indians were not completely wrong. Can a "worker" or 
"slave" class be seen as an essential phase or subsystem too? I believe yes. 
Slavery in ancient times was in my opinion a precursor of employment. 
Proto-companies needed cheap employees before employees or economies existed. 
The "class" of slaves served as proto-employees, in ancient Egypt, ancient 
Greece and ancient Rome. A dream for their proto-employer, a nightmare for 
them. I guess "Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents" from Isabel Wilkerson 
which Nick mentioned makes a similar 
point.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste:_The_Origins_of_Our_Discontents-J.
 Original message From: Sarbajit Roy  Date: 
8/26/21  04:43  (GMT+01:00) To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee 
Group  Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side HiI would 
like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally distasteful) perspective on 
this from India.India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19 
infections and deaths after the USA.However, within India, there is a small 
class of people, like me, called Adi Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste,  who don't 
wear masks or take clinically unproven or untested vaccinations, mainly because 
we continually practice an ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. 
Since Brahmins are traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, 
we have known about virii, fomites, their modes of transmission, and how they 
cause infection and disease for centuries and we knew this empirically even 
before microscopes were invented. The rules and concepts of untouchability are 
drilled into Brahmin children from infancy, and we practice it scrupulously 
even if it is banned by law in India. And it's not as if we dont believe in 
Western medicine systems or science, I was drilled by my grandfather who was 
the Director General of India's Armed Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of 
India), to the extent that even the metal cutlery at his dining table was 
"autoclaved" before we used them.The people who are contracting and dying of 
COVID in India are the ones who are fated to do so because of their own 
foolishness and ignorance, and also because India's government wanted them to 
die. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563Sarbajit RoyNew Delhi, 
IndiaOn Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore  
wrote:Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the 
science and tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is 
amazingly cool what people can do what we decide to do so.you bring up a good 
point! I watched youtube videos from people that made the vaccines. LOL I did 
need to try to ask for a translation on what it meant to map the genetics. RNA. 
mRNA.  And when I learned how safe the vaccine was. Then I decided I couldn't 
get in line fast enough. It sounds like that's the opposite what some people 
are doing. It sounds like the hear: this was made using new medical technology, 
that hasn't neneded to be tested outside of labs until now. So they basically 
heard Fear And Doubt. Which is a shame.On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus 
Daniels  wrote:They aren't under a mandate to have 
sufficient capacity, or they'd have sufficient capacity.   Through a triage 
process they can prioritize.   It must happen already, even if it isn't legal.  
Oh, the local drug addict is here again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the 
attention of the doctors.  If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery 
stores, etc. simply refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, 
there doesn't need to be a mandate.   And it isn't just ERs, there are people 
getting allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.  No 
shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely 
irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a gunshot 
wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not.

Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in the

Re: [FRIAM] Kill it!

[Steve Smith]

Glen -

Great reflection on domesticated cats...

I have had a lifetime relationship with both cats and dogs myself.   As
a child, I believed *all* cats were female and most dogs were male.  
This was because the rural context I lived in, the male cats roamed
freely and likely were "thinned" heavily by coyotes and owls (and
perhaps bobcats also) and were essentially feral.   Females were almost
always obviously female because they were raising a litter in a barn
other outbuilding and being offered food consistently, they *tolerated*
human contact and the kittens were regularly handled by humans,
sometimes adopting humans as "their familiar" (or vice-versa).  I
suspect that male kittens were sacrificed as they matured while the
females were gifted forward as self-regenerating "barn cats".  I don't
think I ever saw a cat living inside a house before I was about 12.  
While they *may* have been effective birders in their outdoor context,
the most common (by far) delivered/found carcass was a mouse, ground
squirrel, packrat, or the occasionally baby bunny or gopher.   I do
understand that in many contexts (acutely tropical islands) cats are
devastating invasive-species predators entirely disrupting the
ecosystems they have invaded.

  Dogs were usually kept as working herders or guards and were more
often than not the latter were unneutered males.   Feral dogs were not
tolerated, any dog not respecting it's own territorial boundaries did
not last long at the hands of the gun-toting neighbors.   Any dog
outside of it's own territory was assumed to be rogue and intending harm
to livestock, etc.    House-dogs were also very rare (some were allowed
inside in special contexts) and lap-dogs were unheard of.   

My parents allowed a couple of cats to take up residence with us during
my growing up, following (mostly) the protocols described above.  
Kittens "disappeared" within several months, ostensibly being adopted
out, but I suspect not exclusively (e.g. males).   My first adult "cat
ownership" was with a partner whose daughter was a pet hoarder (and she
herself was a milder one).   They would take turns bringing home stray
animals (mostly cats, but also dogs, ferrets, etc.) with the idea of
"rehoming" them... but in fact we had at least 3 indoor/outdoor cats at
any time, and often as many as 10.   A few did get rehomed as planned,
but too many of them got "rehomed" into a coyote's belly.   This event
(simple disappearance) usually provoked a trip to the animal shelter to
"fill the hole".  I really never felt good about this at all...  it
seemed so cruel to just keep "saving them from the shelter" to "feed
them to the coyotes".   I became inured to this, accepting that one fate
was not a lot worse than another, if not for the emotional whiplash of
becoming attached to an animal that was very likely to be gone in a few
months (feeding a coyote).  I lobbied for "indoor only" cat keeping.  
At least the ferrets were not allowed to roam, though they might have
been better for knocking down the gopher population.   At one point, a
black tomcat adopted our property (3 acres, 5 buildings bordering a
small canyon).   He was very sweet with people but enjoyed desperately
beating up the "housecats",  perhaps it was all S&M play as they were
all (neutered) females... but the bottom line was, we quit losing them
to coyotes because "Hamlet" (aka "Ham Omelet") would give them "what
for" anytime they ventured outdoors.   It was a good balance...   we had
a very aggressive rodent-killer who "managed" the harem of (now mostly)
indoor females quite well.   One day someone walking by recognized him
as being their neighbor's cat (living a mile away)... we invited the
previous owners to come pick him up, they did, we never saw him again,
and we went back to losing a cat every few months.   .

At my present location (also abutting wildness),  I have had 5 different
(mostly) housecats.   My partner at the time had never had cats until we
woke one morning to a full-grown kitten perched on the top of the
bears-head on the top of a totem pole my father had carved.  It was 20'
off the ground but only 6' off the deck to our bedroom.  Helping the
(stranded?) cat down, it adopted my partner as her "familiar"   and they
bonded.   My partner insisted on not restricting the cat to the house,
but we had a large dog who maintained a good perimeter with the wild
predators, so it was a couple of years before that one went down the
gullet (presumably) of a coyote (or more likely owl?).   True to form,
she replaced this cat almost immediately with two kittens, one who died
of an infant  feline disease (within weeks of adoption).  I took it upon
myself to try to recreate the "Hamlet" experience by adopting 4 feral
cats from a rescue group that neuters and marks (a notch in the ear)
them and gives them to rural properties as "barn cats".  I installed the
three miserable/angry creatures in one of our outbuildings which was
definitely rodent-infested.   On

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

I suppose it all depends on what "anti-vax" means, eh? If you take "anti-vax" 
to mean a kind of nihilistic "who cares?", then no. If you take "anti-vax" to 
mean "the spike protein made by the body in response to the mRNA vaccines is 
toxic", then yes. If you take "anti-vax" to mean "the vaccines contain aborted 
fetal tissue and it would be immoral for me to inject that into my body", then 
yes. Etc.

By "anti-vax", most of Us the Enlightened are referring *not* to clear thinking 
people who have a calculus for making such decisions. We're referring to group 
thinkers who get the majority of their "scientific information" from Facebook 
posts from their friends.

A person who sincerely doubts ingesting the vaccines and bases that doubt on 
controversial (not fully falsified nonsense) evidence would not be "anti-vax" 
in my book. (I'm looking at Pieter! 8^D)

If you base your analytical evaluation and conclusions on obvious stupidity, 
then yes, I'd call your conclusions and analysis stupid. And stupidity must be 
painful. But if you base your analytical evaluation and conclusions on the 
truly questionable rhetoric put forth by others, then no, I'd call it 
*skeptical*. And skepticism must be rewarded.

I'm not anti-vax because, in general, I'm not anti-*, anti-anything. I'm not 
really even anti-stupidity. I do stupid stuff all the time, come to stupid 
conclusions all the time. That's mostly because I'm contrarian. But my 
stupidity is painful and my contrary nature ensures that it is painful. In the 
end, Marcus' rhetoric is right. Shun the anti-vax from institutions, where 
reasonable. E.g. I intend to attend a small concert in September as a birthday 
gift to both me and Renee'. However, entry at the door will require evidence of 
vax status *or* a PCR test result dated within the last 48 hours. And I think 
that's the right thing to do. If you're anti-vax, no King Buffalo for you!


On 8/26/21 8:27 AM, Prof David West wrote:
> 
> Glen stated:/"Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful."/
> 
> Is it correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to stupidity in 
> all cases without exception?
> 
> Such an interpretation would certainly be consistent with the prevailing 
> rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two groups: Them the stupid and Us 
> the enlightened.
> 
> Am I, for example, stupid; giving no regard to the basis of my being 
> anti-vax, for me personally?
> 
> [BTW, my analytical evaluation and conclusions did not stop me from getting 
> vaccinated despite my antipathy. But my doing so was simply a matter of 
> coercion.]
> 
> davew
> 
> 
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 8:15 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
>> Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient 
>> or PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test 
>> results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful.
>> 
>> But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness.
>> 
>> On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> > They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have 
>> > sufficient capacity.   Through a triage process they can prioritize.   It 
>> > must happen already, even if it isn't legal.  Oh, the local drug addict is 
>> > here again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors. 
>> >  If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply 
>> > refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't 
>> > need to be a mandate.   And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting 
>> > allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.  No 
>> > shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service.
>> > 
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> 
>> > On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>> > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM
>> > To: friam@redfish.com 
>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>> > 
>> > That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely 
>> > irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a 
>> > gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not.
>> > 
>> > Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in 
>> > the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you 
>> > suggest would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect 
>> > the laws that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime 
>> > soon.
>> > 
>> > Taking a look at this site: 
>> > https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours
>> >  
>> > 
>> > it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The 
>> > actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid 
>>

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Prof David West]

Glen stated:* "Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful."*

Is it correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to stupidity in all 
cases without exception?

Such an interpretation would certainly be consistent with the prevailing 
rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two groups: Them the stupid and Us the 
enlightened.

Am I, for example, stupid; giving no regard to the basis of my being anti-vax, 
for me personally?

[BTW, my analytical evaluation and conclusions did not stop me from getting 
vaccinated despite my antipathy. But my doing so was simply a matter of 
coercion.]

davew


On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 8:15 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
> Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient 
> or PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test 
> results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful.
> 
> But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness.
> 
> On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have 
> > sufficient capacity.   Through a triage process they can prioritize.   It 
> > must happen already, even if it isn't legal.  Oh, the local drug addict is 
> > here again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors.  
> > If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply 
> > refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't 
> > need to be a mandate.   And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting 
> > allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.  No 
> > shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service.
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM
> > To: friam@redfish.com
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> > 
> > That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely 
> > irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a 
> > gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not.
> > 
> > Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in 
> > the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you suggest 
> > would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect the laws 
> > that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon.
> > 
> > Taking a look at this site: 
> > https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours
> > it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The 
> > actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid 
> > patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem.
> > 
> > 
> > On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >> Will you consent to a vaccine?  
> >>
> >> Yes:  You get treatment for your non-COVID condition.  No:  Get lost.  
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM
> >> To: friam@redfish.com
> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> >>
> >> Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. 
> >> (Last I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm 
> >> sure it's location dependent.) They're regular people with regular 
> >> problems, many of whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to 
> >> lockdowns. We did a little too much "just in time" logistical planning 
> >> with our hospitals and this fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our 
> >> buffer wasn't high enough.
> >>
> >> The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and 
> >> take care of both covid patients and regular people.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >>> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals?  Just don't let 
> >>> them in.
> >>>
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM
> >>> To: friam@redfish.com
> >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> >>>
> >>> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, 
> >>> everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us 
> >>> or who's against us, then they're much less willing to submit to such 
> >>> tests.
> >>>
> >>> You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they antifa 
> >>> are rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the fascists dig 
> >>> in and be more committed to protesting, which makes the antifa more 
> >>> committed, ad infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists 
> >>> out there protesting mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) But 
> >>> as a result, they're anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably.
> >>>
> >>> Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our 
> >>> attention on in

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[thompnickson2]

Sarbajit,

 

Are you familiar with CASTE 

 ?  The book, not the institution.  No particular reason, except that if you 
were, it would provide us with a joint context.  

 

I am thinking that the closest equivalent to “untouchable” in our current 
American lingo is “essential.”  

 

I agree with you that the conversation is unpleasant, but disagree that it is 
avoidable.  

 

Is it your view that castes are the inevitable consequence of human association 
and that we should accept our privilege with grace and gratitude?   Or, …..?

 

Thank you for opening this door a crack. 

 

Nick 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Sarbajit Roy
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:19 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

 

Nick, 

it would be politically insensitive / incorrect for me to discuss America's 
blacks in the context of, say, white plantation owners, "field hands" and 
"house n**s" (not sure if I can use this word online nowadays) which parallel 
India's untouchables or Japan's  Burakumin /Eta societal structures.

Was it coincidence that the USA's most deadly COVID hotspots were unhygienic 
meat "packing" factories which employ mostly lower income blacks / browns who 
were compelled to either work or lose their meagre medical benefits ? 

Sarbajit

 

 

 

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 9:04 AM mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Sarbajit, 

 

I am both fascinated and baffled by your note, and hope you will say more.  I 
am in the thrall of a book entitled CASTE which makes a parallel between the 
untouchables and American blacks.  So for you to associate high class with 
untouchability is disorienting.  I gather that the notion of Untouchables as a 
low caste includes a notion of Non-touchers as a high class?  I suppose it 
must, but I had never really thought about that.  

 

Nick 

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of Sarbajit Roy
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:41 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

 

Hi

I would like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally distasteful) 
perspective on this from India.

India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19 infections and deaths 
after the USA.

However, within India, there is a small class of people, like me, called Adi 
Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste,  who don't wear masks or take clinically 
unproven or untested vaccinations, mainly because we continually practice an 
ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since Brahmins are 
traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, we have known about 
virii, fomites, their modes of transmission, and how they cause infection and 
disease for centuries and we knew this empirically even before microscopes were 
invented. 

The rules and concepts of untouchability are drilled into Brahmin children from 
infancy, and we practice it scrupulously even if it is banned by law in India. 
And it's not as if we dont believe in Western medicine systems or science, I 
was drilled by my grandfather who was the Director General of India's Armed 
Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of India), to the extent that even the metal 
cutlery at his dining table was "autoclaved" before we used them.

The people who are contracting and dying of COVID in India are the ones who are 
fated to do so because of their own foolishness and ignorance, and also because 
India's government wanted them to die. 
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563


Sarbajit Roy

New Delhi, India

 

 

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the science and 
tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is amazingly cool 
what people can do what we decide to do so.

you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos from people that made the 
vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a translation on what it meant to 
map the genetics. RNA. mRNA.  And when I learned how safe the vaccine was. Then 
I decided I couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds like that's the 
opposite what some people are doing. It sounds like the hear: this was made 
using new medical technology, that hasn't neneded to be tested outside of labs 
until now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt. Which is a shame.

 

 

 

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> > wrote:

They aren't under a mandate to

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

Very nice! What I keep *wanting* to hear from Nick or EricC is a mechanism by 
which very tiny, very fast processes inside the body interact with very tiny, 
very fast processes outside the body. I.e. a demonstration (or simply rhetoric) 
of membrane openness (permeability, lack of closure). I.e. not all tiny/fast 
processes are bundled up into larger/slower processes at the interface between 
inside and outside.

If they made that (inherently compositional) argument, then ... then then then, 
we could talk about a taxonomy of process from tiny/fast to huge/slow, across 
spatiotemporal and functional scales. And with such a taxonomy, we could talk 
about which ones facilitate the Markovian processes EricS mentioned, required 
to successfully challenge "the hard problem" from a behaviorist perspective.


On 8/26/21 8:05 AM, Curt McNamara wrote:
> Bucky Fuller on apprehension / comprehension of systems:
> http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s05/figs/f0901.html 
> 
> 
> We ignore larger / slower frequencies. We also ignore smaller / faster 
> frequencies.
> http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s05/p0600.html#509.01 
> 
> 
>    Curt
> 
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 9:55 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$  > wrote:
> 
> Ouch! Dude. No! 8^D You're committing the same sin Nick commits. To say 
> we "are" our emotions ignores the composition, the algebra by which parts 
> compose the whole.
> 
> The point is the very high order conscious *attention* to lower order 
> frequencies. Not all is one. There are many parts to organize. How are they 
> organized?
> 
> On 8/26/21 7:50 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
> >
> >>  E.g. when Bob wakes up startled, he interprets the situation into 
> "fear". But when Sally wakes up startled, she interprets the situation into 
> "excitement" or some other /a priori/, socially limiting, filter category.
> > Thus my earlier suggestion that "we" "are" our emotions?   Bob *is* his
> > propensity to read the lower-level response of "startlement" (closer to
> > autonomic) to "fear" (closer to choice).   Sally also as "excitement".
> 
> 
> -- 
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
> 
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> 
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] Kill it!

[Marcus Daniels]

I have seen what happens when ferals proliferate.   Out in the country it is 
common to have a few non-domesticated cats around, but they can proliferate 
amongst households.  Look out the window, there is some hunt that is on.   
Culling is easy though.

> On Aug 26, 2021, at 7:08 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:
> 
> So, a wildlife ecologist friend of mine (who meatspace introduced me to 
> Looney (WSDA employee who discovered murder hornets here (who also hangs at 
> the local pub) [‡])) argues that domestic cats, as an invasive species, are 
> more horrifying than murder hornets, or english ivy, or the new zealand 
> mudsnail, etc. He focuses on how they're merely killing machines, with which 
> I agree. And goes with the usual "keep them inside" rhetoric.
> 
> But I think I landed on an argument that he couldn't respond to. The typical 
> evolutionary argument against domestic cats is that we neuter/spay the ones 
> with the qualities we like, leaving the ferals to reproduce and evolve. And 
> there's plenty of evidence that a clowder of ferals wreaks more havoc on a 
> local ecosystem than a disorganized collection of house cats ever does. 
> (Distributions of house cats territory drop off at more than ~100 m from 
> their home. So unless the cat lives on the border of a wild area, it's impact 
> on wild life is quite small. In contrast, feral clowders end up in wilder 
> areas.)
> 
> To boot, I have an anecdote. When we moved into this house, which is 
> buttressed by a fairly wild ravine with owls and wild rabbits and such, there 
> was a feral clowder living in a dilapidated house at the crook of the ravine 
> (which leads down toward capitol lake). Our alpha, Scooter, kept fighting 
> with at least one of these ferals. He lost quite badly one time, but due to 
> our policy of universal healthcare, Scooter lives to fight again. Now the 
> feral clowder is gone, thereby saving the lives of who knows how many little 
> critters in the ravine. Scooter sporadically brings home a mouse, mole, or 
> "little brown bird". But it's pretty rare now that he's pushing 12 or 13. So, 
> we could say he's an ecologically ethical hunter, even if it's unintentional.
> 
> In the end, though, my wildlife eco friend just loves dogs and hates cats. 
> 8^D My guess is his cognitive structure is more dog-like and mine is more 
> cat-like, after decades of being programmed by our pets.
> 
> 
> [‡] 
> https://www.sciencenews.org/article/asian-giant-murder-hornets-new-map-habitat-united-states
> 
>> On 8/24/21 4:39 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
>> My first reaction to the subject line is one of my favorite parody
>> attributions to redneck culture:  "it's Diffr'nt, kill it!" but then I
>> read the content and realized it was more apropos than I expected.
>> 
>> I believe that something like "xenophobia" is an adaptive response in
>> many contexts...  we have some pretty deep instincts it seems that let
>> us know to be "askeered" of "spiders and snakes" even if we'd never seen
>> another ape respond that way.  My dog has always been very (properly)
>> fearful of snakes...  otherwise her natural curious aggression would
>> have had her dead-by-snakebite long ago...   she went crazy everytime
>> she saw a rattlesnake but always barked crazily from a good 6-10 feet
>> away.   She never alerted to a non-rattler that I knew of.And in the
>> arms race of survival, it is natural that some "skeery" things will
>> camoflauge as benign or friendly or cute. 
>> 
>> I am always a little nervous when large movements (especially gubbm'nt
>> supported ) try to tap those instincts.  It seems like a bad precedent
>> to encourage formalized xenophobia even against helpless insects.   The
>> Charlottesville (and too many other) white-nationalists chanting "jews
>> will not replace us" and all of Trump's fear-mongering are obvious (and
>> ugly), but aspects of the B(lack) L(ives) M(atter) movement that perhaps
>> overstated police culpability (in general not in specific cases), and
>> Hillary's unfortunate election-forfieting statement calling Trump
>> supporters "deplorables" (plenty of them were, but the brush was too
>> broad and there was probably at least some backlash turnout over that
>> one).  Her "superpredator" comments, etc. in the 90's are another
>> example.  
>> 
>> As for me, I have a nicely expanding set of stands of what is know
>> locally as "Guaco" (critical to the black on black pottery process) in
>> the pueblo nearby but more commonly known as "beeweed" among anglos...
>> it turns out to be a particularly attractive nectar source for the
>> Tarantula Hawk (or Tarantula Wasp), a big ole blue-black  beast that
>> looks like it could stun you with a sting and drag you to it's
>> underground lair where it would insert it's fertilized eggs into your
>> abdomen to hatch and thrive until the larva are ready to emerge and
>> pupate ultimately into more giant scary wasps.   The thing is, this is
>> exactly what they do, but only with Taran

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[Frank Wimberly]

Sally is a masochist.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, 9:09 AM  wrote:

> Hmmm! Interesting, Steve.  Should  I prefer "is" to "does"? That certainly
> ==> is <== his fearfulness.
>
> Nick Thompson
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of Steve Smith
> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 10:50 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions
>
>
> >  E.g. when Bob wakes up startled, he interprets the situation into
> "fear". But when Sally wakes up startled, she interprets the situation into
> "excitement" or some other /a priori/, socially limiting, filter category.
> Thus my earlier suggestion that "we" "are" our emotions?   Bob *is* his
> propensity to read the lower-level response of "startlement" (closer to
> autonomic) to "fear" (closer to choice).   Sally also as "excitement".
>
>
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Steve Smith]

Sarbajit -

I've been hoping to hear from you on this topic during this time.  One
of the things I most value about this list is the wide geographical
distribution of our members, not to mention the handful of cultural
outliers such as yourself.   Your own unique positioning in the
sociopolitical/technical spectrum seems often to provide some useful
parallax to us (mostly old white men from wealthy anglophone countries).  

You once before invoked your Adi Brahmin heritage/practice during a
discussion I  think of the widespread genetic contribution of Ghengis
Khan.  

I appreciate the care with which you have introduced these facts and
perspectives into a larger culture (well, maybe not larger, but a tiny
sliver of a larger culture) which finds them somewhat antithetical (i.e.
politically incorrect).  

If I understand your points from both discussions correctly:

 1. Genetic "purity" (a Western description) is important to your
religious/cultural group and it is maintained through myriad
practices that the West often finds "backward" or "wrongheaded". 
 2. Microorganismal/biome health is also maintained by myriad practices
that the West may find ... etc.   Untouchability (which, like Nick,
I have only the most superficial awareness of) and the kinds of
in-group isolation that I presume are almost impossible to maintain
without elite status in a context such as modern India (perhaps
anywhere?)

I'm not trying to instigate an argument among us over this point, just
framing it as best I can, and trying to open a larger discussion about
the question of socio-cultural-spiritually practices and how well
subsets of a continuously globalizing humanity can maintain internal
coherence whilst engaging with the larger "homogenizing"?  group.

I might also highlight DaveW's contribution to the Ghengis Khan
discussion that "normalized" what most (all?) of us would call rape in
the context of the Mongol conquests (and perhaps warfare of all kinds
over millenia?).   Similarly, DaveW's unique (I think to this group)
positioning as having born and raised within the Latter Day Saints
subculture of rural Utah which carries it's own unique practices (some
extant, others mostly vestigal) around a particular style of Patriarchy
(including Polygamy).

Pieter brings us the perspective of a professional class South African
which seems to have it's own uniquely asqew (I don't mean this
perjoratively) basis space of assumptions, values, judgements.  

I realize I am probably fumble/mumble/bumbling all this to the point
that the discussion I'm hoping to provoke will not happen, but I felt
your uniquely *oblique* POV in this might be a good opportunity to try
to stimulate this discussion (yet again).

- Steve


On 8/26/21 2:47 AM, Sarbajit Roy wrote:
> I can give you some more context citing my personal experience
>
> I stay in a spacious (for India) gated-off apartment complex in New
> Delhi, with 90 apartments and about 400 residents. About 25% of the
> apartments have retired doctors from India's premier hospitals, and
> we're mostly educated professionals well clued in to take precautions..
>
> In the first COVID wave  which peaked in Sept 2020 we had 2 infections
> and no deaths. In the second wave which peaked in May 2021, we had
> about 75 known infections (of which 25 needed hospitalization) and 8
> COVID deaths in my apartment complex alone. Similar numbers happened
> in the surrounding apartment complexes. My father-in-law who stays in
> a similar apartment complex a mile away was hospitalised for 10 days
> with COVID this May at the peak but luckily pulled through at age 82
> years. He only got a hospital bed because he was Indian Army while
> other patients were being turned away in droves before my eyes.
>
> Sarbajit
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 1:56 PM Sarbajit Roy  > wrote:
>
> Pieter
>
> The official statistics for India are quite (grossly) inaccurate.
> We can *conservatively* multiply the number of infections by x10
> and the number of deaths by x3.
> While the statistics are comparatively better maintained in the
> urban areas, in the rural areas there is massive under-reporting
> and people were dying like flies.
> There is inadequate testing capacity and health infrastructure in
> the rural areas and we estimate the death rate at between 6% to
> 12% of the population in certain states.
>
> My own uncle, a retired Indian Army doctor aged about 81 years,
> was the only doctor left for a radius of 100 km in a densely
> populated state because the regular doctors hadeither fled or died
> of COVID. He expired 2 months ago, of COVID, while still in the
> saddle attending patients.
>
> Sarbajit
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 12:31 PM Pieter Steenekamp
> mailto:piet...@randcontrols.co.za>>
> wrote:
>
> Sarbajit,
>
> When covid started I was very worried about India with it's
>  

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[thompnickson2]

Hmmm! Interesting, Steve.  Should  I prefer "is" to "does"? That certainly ==> 
is <== his fearfulness. 

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 10:50 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions


>  E.g. when Bob wakes up startled, he interprets the situation into "fear". 
> But when Sally wakes up startled, she interprets the situation into 
> "excitement" or some other /a priori/, socially limiting, filter category.
Thus my earlier suggestion that "we" "are" our emotions?   Bob *is* his 
propensity to read the lower-level response of "startlement" (closer to
autonomic) to "fear" (closer to choice).   Sally also as "excitement".




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Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[Curt McNamara]

Bucky Fuller on apprehension / comprehension of systems:
http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s05/figs/f0901.html

We ignore larger / slower frequencies. We also ignore smaller / faster
frequencies.
http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s05/p0600.html#509.01

   Curt

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 9:55 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:

> Ouch! Dude. No! 8^D You're committing the same sin Nick commits. To say we
> "are" our emotions ignores the composition, the algebra by which parts
> compose the whole.
>
> The point is the very high order conscious *attention* to lower order
> frequencies. Not all is one. There are many parts to organize. How are they
> organized?
>
> On 8/26/21 7:50 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
> >
> >>  E.g. when Bob wakes up startled, he interprets the situation into
> "fear". But when Sally wakes up startled, she interprets the situation into
> "excitement" or some other /a priori/, socially limiting, filter category.
> > Thus my earlier suggestion that "we" "are" our emotions?   Bob *is* his
> > propensity to read the lower-level response of "startlement" (closer to
> > autonomic) to "fear" (closer to choice).   Sally also as "excitement".
>
>
> --
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>
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[FRIAM] what is a "clowder" - Google Search

[thompnickson2]

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d
 &q=what+is+a+%22clowder%22 

Gosh, Glen.  Great word, great story.  

nick

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Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

Ouch! Dude. No! 8^D You're committing the same sin Nick commits. To say we 
"are" our emotions ignores the composition, the algebra by which parts compose 
the whole.

The point is the very high order conscious *attention* to lower order 
frequencies. Not all is one. There are many parts to organize. How are they 
organized?

On 8/26/21 7:50 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
> 
>>  E.g. when Bob wakes up startled, he interprets the situation into "fear". 
>> But when Sally wakes up startled, she interprets the situation into 
>> "excitement" or some other /a priori/, socially limiting, filter category.
> Thus my earlier suggestion that "we" "are" our emotions?   Bob *is* his
> propensity to read the lower-level response of "startlement" (closer to
> autonomic) to "fear" (closer to choice).   Sally also as "excitement".


-- 
☤>$ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[Steve Smith]

>  E.g. when Bob wakes up startled, he interprets the situation into "fear". 
> But when Sally wakes up startled, she interprets the situation into 
> "excitement" or some other /a priori/, socially limiting, filter category.
Thus my earlier suggestion that "we" "are" our emotions?   Bob *is* his
propensity to read the lower-level response of "startlement" (closer to
autonomic) to "fear" (closer to choice).   Sally also as "excitement".




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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Sarbajit Roy]

Pieter
It *was* very bad, but it seems that with 70% of the population having
being infected , some kind of herd immunity prevails, at least for now.
https://theprint.in/health/4th-sero-survey-finds-2-of-3-indians-with-covid-antibodies-but-still-avoid-crowds-icmr-warns/699600/


On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 2:43 PM Pieter Steenekamp <
piet...@randcontrols.co.za> wrote:

> Thanks for the reply Sarbajit, so what you're saying is the situation is
> much worse in India than what the official numbers indicate.
>
> Pieter
>
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 at 10:48, Sarbajit Roy  wrote:
>
>> I can give you some more context citing my personal experience
>>
>> I stay in a spacious (for India) gated-off apartment complex in New
>> Delhi, with 90 apartments and about 400 residents. About 25% of the
>> apartments have retired doctors from India's premier hospitals, and we're
>> mostly educated professionals well clued in to take precautions..
>>
>> In the first COVID wave  which peaked in Sept 2020 we had 2 infections
>> and no deaths. In the second wave which peaked in May 2021, we had about 75
>> known infections (of which 25 needed hospitalization) and 8 COVID deaths in
>> my apartment complex alone. Similar numbers happened in the surrounding
>> apartment complexes. My father-in-law who stays in a similar apartment
>> complex a mile away was hospitalised for 10 days with COVID this May at the
>> peak but luckily pulled through at age 82 years. He only got a hospital bed
>> because he was Indian Army while other patients were being turned away in
>> droves before my eyes.
>>
>> Sarbajit
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 1:56 PM Sarbajit Roy  wrote:
>>
>>> Pieter
>>>
>>> The official statistics for India are quite (grossly) inaccurate. We can
>>> *conservatively* multiply the number of infections by x10 and the
>>> number of deaths by x3.
>>> While the statistics are comparatively better maintained in the urban
>>> areas, in the rural areas there is massive under-reporting and people were
>>> dying like flies.
>>> There is inadequate testing capacity and health infrastructure in the
>>> rural areas and we estimate the death rate at between 6% to 12% of the
>>> population in certain states.
>>>
>>> My own uncle, a retired Indian Army doctor aged about 81 years, was the
>>> only doctor left for a radius of 100 km in a densely populated state
>>> because the regular doctors had either fled or died of COVID. He
>>> expired 2 months ago, of COVID, while still in the saddle attending
>>> patients.
>>>
>>> Sarbajit
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 12:31 PM Pieter Steenekamp <
>>> piet...@randcontrols.co.za> wrote:
>>>
 Sarbajit,

 When covid started I was very worried about India with it's high
 population density. But according to
 https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries the deaths/1M
 population in India is 313. In the USA, for example, the figure is 1950
 deaths/1M population.

 Further, according to
 https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/ India seems
 to be dodging the delta variant, because the daily new cases has been
 dropping since May and seems to be staying low.

 My point is, India seems to be doing relatively less bad than many
 other countries.

 Then, there seems to be relatively high prophylactic and early
 treatment use of ivermectin in India.
 Refer to:

 https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/lucknow/uttar-pradesh-government-says-ivermectin-helped-to-keep-deaths-low-7311786/

 https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/05/11/indian-state-will-offer-ivermectin-to-entire-adult-population---even-as-who-warns-against-its-use-as-covid-19-treatment/?sh=18acd8956d9f

 https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epidemiologic-analyses-on-covid19-and-ivermectin/

 https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/columnists/indias-ivermectin-blackout---part-iii-the-lesson-of-kerala/article_ccecb97e-044e-11ec-9112-2b31ae87887a.html

 I'd like to have your views on this. Is there a possible causal link
 between the use of ivermectin and low new covid infections in India?

 Pieter









 On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 at 04:42, Sarbajit Roy  wrote:

> Hi
>
> I would like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally distasteful)
> perspective on this from India.
>
> India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19 infections
> and deaths after the USA.
>
> However, within India, there is a small class of people, like me,
> called Adi Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste,  who don't wear masks or take
> clinically unproven or untested vaccinations, mainly because we 
> continually
> practice an ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since
> Brahmins are traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, 
> we
> have known about virii, fomites, their mode

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient or 
PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test results. I 
agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful.

But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness.

On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have 
> sufficient capacity.   Through a triage process they can prioritize.   It 
> must happen already, even if it isn't legal.  Oh, the local drug addict is 
> here again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors.  
> If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply 
> refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't 
> need to be a mandate.   And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting 
> allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.  No shirt, 
> no shoes, no vaccination, no service.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> 
> That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely 
> irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a 
> gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not.
> 
> Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in 
> the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you suggest 
> would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect the laws 
> that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon.
> 
> Taking a look at this site: 
> https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours
> it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The 
> actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid 
> patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem.
> 
> 
> On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> Will you consent to a vaccine?  
>>
>> Yes:  You get treatment for your non-COVID condition.  No:  Get lost.  
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM
>> To: friam@redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>>
>> Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. 
>> (Last I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm sure 
>> it's location dependent.) They're regular people with regular problems, many 
>> of whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to lockdowns. We did a 
>> little too much "just in time" logistical planning with our hospitals and 
>> this fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our buffer wasn't high enough.
>>
>> The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and 
>> take care of both covid patients and regular people.
>>
>>
>> On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals?  Just don't let them 
>>> in.
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM
>>> To: friam@redfish.com
>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>>>
>>> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, 
>>> everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us 
>>> or who's against us, then they're much less willing to submit to such tests.
>>>
>>> You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they antifa are 
>>> rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the fascists dig in 
>>> and be more committed to protesting, which makes the antifa more committed, 
>>> ad infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists out there 
>>> protesting mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) But as a 
>>> result, they're anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably.
>>>
>>> Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our attention 
>>> on increasing the capacities of hospitals rather than brow beating the 
>>> anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would climb steadily and the 
>>> reactionary tendencies of the anti-vaxers would abate.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
 These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests.


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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Marcus Daniels]

Insurers to the rescue?

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/08/covid-costs-billions-so-delta-to-charge-unvaxxed-airline-workers-200-month/

On Aug 26, 2021, at 2:13 AM, Pieter Steenekamp  
wrote:


Thanks for the reply Sarbajit, so what you're saying is the situation is much 
worse in India than what the official numbers indicate.

Pieter

On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 at 10:48, Sarbajit Roy 
mailto:sroy...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I can give you some more context citing my personal experience

I stay in a spacious (for India) gated-off apartment complex in New Delhi, with 
90 apartments and about 400 residents. About 25% of the apartments have retired 
doctors from India's premier hospitals, and we're mostly educated professionals 
well clued in to take precautions..

In the first COVID wave  which peaked in Sept 2020 we had 2 infections and no 
deaths. In the second wave which peaked in May 2021, we had about 75 known 
infections (of which 25 needed hospitalization) and 8 COVID deaths in my 
apartment complex alone. Similar numbers happened in the surrounding apartment 
complexes. My father-in-law who stays in a similar apartment complex a mile 
away was hospitalised for 10 days with COVID this May at the peak but luckily 
pulled through at age 82 years. He only got a hospital bed because he was 
Indian Army while other patients were being turned away in droves before my 
eyes.

Sarbajit

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 1:56 PM Sarbajit Roy 
mailto:sroy...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Pieter

The official statistics for India are quite (grossly) inaccurate. We can 
conservatively multiply the number of infections by x10 and the number of 
deaths by x3.
While the statistics are comparatively better maintained in the urban areas, in 
the rural areas there is massive under-reporting and people were dying like 
flies.
There is inadequate testing capacity and health infrastructure in the rural 
areas and we estimate the death rate at between 6% to 12% of the population in 
certain states.

My own uncle, a retired Indian Army doctor aged about 81 years, was the only 
doctor left for a radius of 100 km in a densely populated state because the 
regular doctors had either fled or died of COVID. He expired 2 months ago, of 
COVID, while still in the saddle attending patients.

Sarbajit

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 12:31 PM Pieter Steenekamp 
mailto:piet...@randcontrols.co.za>> wrote:
Sarbajit,

When covid started I was very worried about India with it's high population 
density. But according to https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries 
the deaths/1M population in India is 313. In the USA, for example, the figure 
is 1950 deaths/1M population.

Further, according to https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/ 
India seems to be dodging the delta variant, because the daily new cases has 
been dropping since May and seems to be staying low.

My point is, India seems to be doing relatively less bad than many other 
countries.

Then, there seems to be relatively high prophylactic and early treatment use of 
ivermectin in India.
Refer to:
https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/lucknow/uttar-pradesh-government-says-ivermectin-helped-to-keep-deaths-low-7311786/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/05/11/indian-state-will-offer-ivermectin-to-entire-adult-population---even-as-who-warns-against-its-use-as-covid-19-treatment/?sh=18acd8956d9f
https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epidemiologic-analyses-on-covid19-and-ivermectin/
https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/columnists/indias-ivermectin-blackout---part-iii-the-lesson-of-kerala/article_ccecb97e-044e-11ec-9112-2b31ae87887a.html

I'd like to have your views on this. Is there a possible causal link between 
the use of ivermectin and low new covid infections in India?

Pieter









On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 at 04:42, Sarbajit Roy 
mailto:sroy...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi

I would like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally distasteful) 
perspective on this from India.

India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19 infections and deaths 
after the USA.

However, within India, there is a small class of people, like me, called Adi 
Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste,  who don't wear masks or take clinically 
unproven or untested vaccinations, mainly because we continually practice an 
ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since Brahmins are 
traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, we have known about 
virii, fomites, their modes of transmission, and how they cause infection and 
disease for centuries and we knew this empirically even before microscopes were 
invented.

The rules and concepts of untouchability are drilled into Brahmin children from 
infancy, and we practice it scrupulously even if it is banned by law in India. 
And it's not as if we dont believe in Western medicine systems or science, I 
was drilled by my grandfather who was the Director General of India's Armed 
Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of Ind

Re: [FRIAM] Kill it!

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

So, a wildlife ecologist friend of mine (who meatspace introduced me to Looney 
(WSDA employee who discovered murder hornets here (who also hangs at the local 
pub) [‡])) argues that domestic cats, as an invasive species, are more 
horrifying than murder hornets, or english ivy, or the new zealand mudsnail, 
etc. He focuses on how they're merely killing machines, with which I agree. And 
goes with the usual "keep them inside" rhetoric.

But I think I landed on an argument that he couldn't respond to. The typical 
evolutionary argument against domestic cats is that we neuter/spay the ones 
with the qualities we like, leaving the ferals to reproduce and evolve. And 
there's plenty of evidence that a clowder of ferals wreaks more havoc on a 
local ecosystem than a disorganized collection of house cats ever does. 
(Distributions of house cats territory drop off at more than ~100 m from their 
home. So unless the cat lives on the border of a wild area, it's impact on wild 
life is quite small. In contrast, feral clowders end up in wilder areas.)

To boot, I have an anecdote. When we moved into this house, which is buttressed 
by a fairly wild ravine with owls and wild rabbits and such, there was a feral 
clowder living in a dilapidated house at the crook of the ravine (which leads 
down toward capitol lake). Our alpha, Scooter, kept fighting with at least one 
of these ferals. He lost quite badly one time, but due to our policy of 
universal healthcare, Scooter lives to fight again. Now the feral clowder is 
gone, thereby saving the lives of who knows how many little critters in the 
ravine. Scooter sporadically brings home a mouse, mole, or "little brown bird". 
But it's pretty rare now that he's pushing 12 or 13. So, we could say he's an 
ecologically ethical hunter, even if it's unintentional.

In the end, though, my wildlife eco friend just loves dogs and hates cats. 8^D 
My guess is his cognitive structure is more dog-like and mine is more cat-like, 
after decades of being programmed by our pets.


[‡] 
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/asian-giant-murder-hornets-new-map-habitat-united-states

On 8/24/21 4:39 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
> My first reaction to the subject line is one of my favorite parody
> attributions to redneck culture:  "it's Diffr'nt, kill it!" but then I
> read the content and realized it was more apropos than I expected.
> 
> I believe that something like "xenophobia" is an adaptive response in
> many contexts...  we have some pretty deep instincts it seems that let
> us know to be "askeered" of "spiders and snakes" even if we'd never seen
> another ape respond that way.  My dog has always been very (properly)
> fearful of snakes...  otherwise her natural curious aggression would
> have had her dead-by-snakebite long ago...   she went crazy everytime
> she saw a rattlesnake but always barked crazily from a good 6-10 feet
> away.   She never alerted to a non-rattler that I knew of.    And in the
> arms race of survival, it is natural that some "skeery" things will
> camoflauge as benign or friendly or cute. 
> 
> I am always a little nervous when large movements (especially gubbm'nt
> supported ) try to tap those instincts.  It seems like a bad precedent
> to encourage formalized xenophobia even against helpless insects.   The
> Charlottesville (and too many other) white-nationalists chanting "jews
> will not replace us" and all of Trump's fear-mongering are obvious (and
> ugly), but aspects of the B(lack) L(ives) M(atter) movement that perhaps
> overstated police culpability (in general not in specific cases), and
> Hillary's unfortunate election-forfieting statement calling Trump
> supporters "deplorables" (plenty of them were, but the brush was too
> broad and there was probably at least some backlash turnout over that
> one).  Her "superpredator" comments, etc. in the 90's are another
> example.  
> 
> As for me, I have a nicely expanding set of stands of what is know
> locally as "Guaco" (critical to the black on black pottery process) in
> the pueblo nearby but more commonly known as "beeweed" among anglos...
> it turns out to be a particularly attractive nectar source for the
> Tarantula Hawk (or Tarantula Wasp), a big ole blue-black  beast that
> looks like it could stun you with a sting and drag you to it's
> underground lair where it would insert it's fertilized eggs into your
> abdomen to hatch and thrive until the larva are ready to emerge and
> pupate ultimately into more giant scary wasps.   The thing is, this is
> exactly what they do, but only with Tarantulae (and perhaps other large
> spiders?) but can hardly be induced to sting anything else (I think
> there is a YouTube Steve-Irwin wannabe who succeeded in getting one to
> sting him on camera, but while painful it was not acutely life or limb
> threatening).  There are as many as a dozen or more of these wasps (and
> occasionally a few other pollinating insects) hanging around them.   I
> approach them relatively c

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

Great contribution, Roger! The article targets composition that's severely 
lacking in our discussions each time they pop up. Here are the bullets I pull 
from it, caveat confirmation bias:

• clustering induction (model-free) as agnostic concept registration

• "The amygdala, on the other hand, is involved with processing and responding 
to threats — an ancient, subconscious behavioral and physiological mechanism. 
'The evidence shows that it’s not always fear that causes the behavior,' LeDoux 
said."

• "where the physical processing of the sensory stimulus and the conscious 
experience of it are often bundled together. In both cases, LeDoux believes 
'these need to be pulled apart.'"

• composition of "approach" and "avoid" into complexes of "decision-making" and 
"attention"
  · reuse of primitives for different higher order constructs (polyphenism), 
e.g. primitives for memory repurposed for blood sugar regulation (or vice versa)


All 4 seem to argue that "the hard problem" is coherent. If conscious 
experience is an interpretation of more primitive firing patterns, and each of 
our physiological networks (not merely the brain) *learns*, induces, derives, 
that interpretation and and and there's evidence of polyphenism all the way up 
the ladder, then inter-subjective experience should be relatively rare. E.g. 
when Bob wakes up startled, he interprets the situation into "fear". But when 
Sally wakes up startled, she interprets the situation into "excitement" or some 
other /a priori/, socially limiting, filter category.



On 8/25/21 5:48 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
> https://www.quantamagazine.org/mental-phenomena-dont-map-into-the-brain-as-expected-20210824/
>  
> 
> 
> A quanta article titled The Brain Doesn’t Think the Way You Think It Does
> 
> Joseph LeDoux 
>  is a 
> neuroscientist at NYU known for his pioneering work on the amygdala, which is 
> often referred to as the fear center of the brain. But that framing, he says, 
> is very wrong — and very harmful. “I kept being introduced over the years as 
> someone who discovered how feelings of fear come out of the amygdala,” he 
> said. “But I would always kind of flinch when I would be introduced this way. 
> Finally, I had enough.”
> 
>  
> 
> LeDoux has spent the past decade emphasizing that the amygdala isn’t 
> involved in generating fear at all. Fear, he points out, is a cognitive 
> interpretation of a situation, a subjective experience tied up in memory and 
> other processes. The psychological phenomena that some people experience as 
> fear may be experienced as something very different by others. Research shows 
> that the feeling of fear arises in the prefrontal cortex and related brain 
> areas.
> 
>  
> 
> The amygdala, on the other hand, is involved with processing and 
> responding to threats — an ancient, subconscious behavioral and physiological 
> mechanism. “The evidence shows that it’s not always fear that causes the 
> behavior,” LeDoux said.
> 
>  
> 
> Calling the amygdala the fear center might seem innocuous, he continued, 
> but “then the amygdala inherits all the semantic baggage of fear.” That 
> mistake can distort attempts to develop medications, including those aiming 
> to reduce anxiety. When potential treatments are tested in animals under 
> stress, if the animals behave less timidly or show less physiological 
> arousal, it’s usually interpreted as a reduction in anxiety or fear levels. 
> But a medication can change someone’s behavioral or physiological responses — 
> those outputs of the amygdala — without curing feelings of anxiety, LeDoux 
> said.
> 
> “The whole field is suffering because of this confusion,” he said.
> 
>  
> 
> Similar problems occur in other areas, he added, such as studies of 
> perception, where the physical processing of the sensory stimulus and the 
> conscious experience of it are often bundled together. In both cases, LeDoux 
> believes “these need to be pulled apart.”


-- 
☤>$ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] Kill it!

[Barry MacKichan]

If there are really ‘fashion police’ they will squash it. Really, 
red with black stripes and dots!

—Barry

On 24 Aug 2021, at 10:44, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:

‘Kill it!’ US officials advise no mercy for lanternfly summer 
invasion



Am I so wrong to root for the bad guy? ... such a good lookin' bug.

--
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/24/pennsylvania-lanternfly-summer-invasion
☤>$ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Pieter Steenekamp]

Thanks for the reply Sarbajit, so what you're saying is the situation is
much worse in India than what the official numbers indicate.

Pieter

On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 at 10:48, Sarbajit Roy  wrote:

> I can give you some more context citing my personal experience
>
> I stay in a spacious (for India) gated-off apartment complex in New Delhi,
> with 90 apartments and about 400 residents. About 25% of the apartments
> have retired doctors from India's premier hospitals, and we're mostly
> educated professionals well clued in to take precautions..
>
> In the first COVID wave  which peaked in Sept 2020 we had 2 infections and
> no deaths. In the second wave which peaked in May 2021, we had about 75
> known infections (of which 25 needed hospitalization) and 8 COVID deaths in
> my apartment complex alone. Similar numbers happened in the surrounding
> apartment complexes. My father-in-law who stays in a similar apartment
> complex a mile away was hospitalised for 10 days with COVID this May at the
> peak but luckily pulled through at age 82 years. He only got a hospital bed
> because he was Indian Army while other patients were being turned away in
> droves before my eyes.
>
> Sarbajit
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 1:56 PM Sarbajit Roy  wrote:
>
>> Pieter
>>
>> The official statistics for India are quite (grossly) inaccurate. We can
>> *conservatively* multiply the number of infections by x10 and the number
>> of deaths by x3.
>> While the statistics are comparatively better maintained in the urban
>> areas, in the rural areas there is massive under-reporting and people were
>> dying like flies.
>> There is inadequate testing capacity and health infrastructure in the
>> rural areas and we estimate the death rate at between 6% to 12% of the
>> population in certain states.
>>
>> My own uncle, a retired Indian Army doctor aged about 81 years, was the
>> only doctor left for a radius of 100 km in a densely populated state
>> because the regular doctors had either fled or died of COVID. He expired
>> 2 months ago, of COVID, while still in the saddle attending patients.
>>
>> Sarbajit
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 12:31 PM Pieter Steenekamp <
>> piet...@randcontrols.co.za> wrote:
>>
>>> Sarbajit,
>>>
>>> When covid started I was very worried about India with it's high
>>> population density. But according to
>>> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries the deaths/1M
>>> population in India is 313. In the USA, for example, the figure is 1950
>>> deaths/1M population.
>>>
>>> Further, according to
>>> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/ India seems to
>>> be dodging the delta variant, because the daily new cases has been dropping
>>> since May and seems to be staying low.
>>>
>>> My point is, India seems to be doing relatively less bad than many other
>>> countries.
>>>
>>> Then, there seems to be relatively high prophylactic and early treatment
>>> use of ivermectin in India.
>>> Refer to:
>>>
>>> https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/lucknow/uttar-pradesh-government-says-ivermectin-helped-to-keep-deaths-low-7311786/
>>>
>>> https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/05/11/indian-state-will-offer-ivermectin-to-entire-adult-population---even-as-who-warns-against-its-use-as-covid-19-treatment/?sh=18acd8956d9f
>>>
>>> https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epidemiologic-analyses-on-covid19-and-ivermectin/
>>>
>>> https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/columnists/indias-ivermectin-blackout---part-iii-the-lesson-of-kerala/article_ccecb97e-044e-11ec-9112-2b31ae87887a.html
>>>
>>> I'd like to have your views on this. Is there a possible causal link
>>> between the use of ivermectin and low new covid infections in India?
>>>
>>> Pieter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 at 04:42, Sarbajit Roy  wrote:
>>>
 Hi

 I would like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally distasteful)
 perspective on this from India.

 India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19 infections
 and deaths after the USA.

 However, within India, there is a small class of people, like me,
 called Adi Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste,  who don't wear masks or take
 clinically unproven or untested vaccinations, mainly because we continually
 practice an ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since
 Brahmins are traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, we
 have known about virii, fomites, their modes of transmission, and how they
 cause infection and disease for centuries and we knew this empirically even
 before microscopes were invented.

 The rules and concepts of untouchability are drilled into Brahmin
 children from infancy, and we practice it scrupulously even if it is banned
 by law in India. And it's not as if we dont believe in Western medicine
 systems or science, I was drilled by my grandfather who was the Director
 General of India's Armed For

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Sarbajit Roy]

I can give you some more context citing my personal experience

I stay in a spacious (for India) gated-off apartment complex in New Delhi,
with 90 apartments and about 400 residents. About 25% of the apartments
have retired doctors from India's premier hospitals, and we're mostly
educated professionals well clued in to take precautions..

In the first COVID wave  which peaked in Sept 2020 we had 2 infections and
no deaths. In the second wave which peaked in May 2021, we had about 75
known infections (of which 25 needed hospitalization) and 8 COVID deaths in
my apartment complex alone. Similar numbers happened in the surrounding
apartment complexes. My father-in-law who stays in a similar apartment
complex a mile away was hospitalised for 10 days with COVID this May at the
peak but luckily pulled through at age 82 years. He only got a hospital bed
because he was Indian Army while other patients were being turned away in
droves before my eyes.

Sarbajit

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 1:56 PM Sarbajit Roy  wrote:

> Pieter
>
> The official statistics for India are quite (grossly) inaccurate. We can
> *conservatively* multiply the number of infections by x10 and the number
> of deaths by x3.
> While the statistics are comparatively better maintained in the urban
> areas, in the rural areas there is massive under-reporting and people were
> dying like flies.
> There is inadequate testing capacity and health infrastructure in the
> rural areas and we estimate the death rate at between 6% to 12% of the
> population in certain states.
>
> My own uncle, a retired Indian Army doctor aged about 81 years, was the
> only doctor left for a radius of 100 km in a densely populated state
> because the regular doctors had either fled or died of COVID. He expired
> 2 months ago, of COVID, while still in the saddle attending patients.
>
> Sarbajit
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 12:31 PM Pieter Steenekamp <
> piet...@randcontrols.co.za> wrote:
>
>> Sarbajit,
>>
>> When covid started I was very worried about India with it's high
>> population density. But according to
>> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries the deaths/1M
>> population in India is 313. In the USA, for example, the figure is 1950
>> deaths/1M population.
>>
>> Further, according to
>> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/ India seems to
>> be dodging the delta variant, because the daily new cases has been dropping
>> since May and seems to be staying low.
>>
>> My point is, India seems to be doing relatively less bad than many other
>> countries.
>>
>> Then, there seems to be relatively high prophylactic and early treatment
>> use of ivermectin in India.
>> Refer to:
>>
>> https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/lucknow/uttar-pradesh-government-says-ivermectin-helped-to-keep-deaths-low-7311786/
>>
>> https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/05/11/indian-state-will-offer-ivermectin-to-entire-adult-population---even-as-who-warns-against-its-use-as-covid-19-treatment/?sh=18acd8956d9f
>>
>> https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epidemiologic-analyses-on-covid19-and-ivermectin/
>>
>> https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/columnists/indias-ivermectin-blackout---part-iii-the-lesson-of-kerala/article_ccecb97e-044e-11ec-9112-2b31ae87887a.html
>>
>> I'd like to have your views on this. Is there a possible causal link
>> between the use of ivermectin and low new covid infections in India?
>>
>> Pieter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 at 04:42, Sarbajit Roy  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> I would like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally distasteful)
>>> perspective on this from India.
>>>
>>> India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19 infections and
>>> deaths after the USA.
>>>
>>> However, within India, there is a small class of people, like me, called
>>> Adi Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste,  who don't wear masks or take
>>> clinically unproven or untested vaccinations, mainly because we continually
>>> practice an ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since
>>> Brahmins are traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, we
>>> have known about virii, fomites, their modes of transmission, and how they
>>> cause infection and disease for centuries and we knew this empirically even
>>> before microscopes were invented.
>>>
>>> The rules and concepts of untouchability are drilled into Brahmin
>>> children from infancy, and we practice it scrupulously even if it is banned
>>> by law in India. And it's not as if we dont believe in Western medicine
>>> systems or science, I was drilled by my grandfather who was the Director
>>> General of India's Armed Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of India), to the
>>> extent that even the metal cutlery at his dining table was "autoclaved"
>>> before we used them.
>>>
>>> The people who are contracting and dying of COVID in India are the ones
>>> who are fated to do so because of their own foolishness and ignorance, and
>>> also bec

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Sarbajit Roy]

Pieter

The official statistics for India are quite (grossly) inaccurate. We can
*conservatively* multiply the number of infections by x10 and the number of
deaths by x3.
While the statistics are comparatively better maintained in the urban
areas, in the rural areas there is massive under-reporting and people were
dying like flies.
There is inadequate testing capacity and health infrastructure in the rural
areas and we estimate the death rate at between 6% to 12% of the population
in certain states.

My own uncle, a retired Indian Army doctor aged about 81 years, was the
only doctor left for a radius of 100 km in a densely populated state
because the regular doctors had either fled or died of COVID. He expired 2
months ago, of COVID, while still in the saddle attending patients.

Sarbajit

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 12:31 PM Pieter Steenekamp <
piet...@randcontrols.co.za> wrote:

> Sarbajit,
>
> When covid started I was very worried about India with it's high
> population density. But according to
> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries the deaths/1M
> population in India is 313. In the USA, for example, the figure is 1950
> deaths/1M population.
>
> Further, according to
> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/ India seems to
> be dodging the delta variant, because the daily new cases has been dropping
> since May and seems to be staying low.
>
> My point is, India seems to be doing relatively less bad than many other
> countries.
>
> Then, there seems to be relatively high prophylactic and early treatment
> use of ivermectin in India.
> Refer to:
>
> https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/lucknow/uttar-pradesh-government-says-ivermectin-helped-to-keep-deaths-low-7311786/
>
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/05/11/indian-state-will-offer-ivermectin-to-entire-adult-population---even-as-who-warns-against-its-use-as-covid-19-treatment/?sh=18acd8956d9f
>
> https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epidemiologic-analyses-on-covid19-and-ivermectin/
>
> https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/columnists/indias-ivermectin-blackout---part-iii-the-lesson-of-kerala/article_ccecb97e-044e-11ec-9112-2b31ae87887a.html
>
> I'd like to have your views on this. Is there a possible causal link
> between the use of ivermectin and low new covid infections in India?
>
> Pieter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 at 04:42, Sarbajit Roy  wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> I would like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally distasteful)
>> perspective on this from India.
>>
>> India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19 infections and
>> deaths after the USA.
>>
>> However, within India, there is a small class of people, like me, called
>> Adi Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste,  who don't wear masks or take
>> clinically unproven or untested vaccinations, mainly because we continually
>> practice an ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since
>> Brahmins are traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, we
>> have known about virii, fomites, their modes of transmission, and how they
>> cause infection and disease for centuries and we knew this empirically even
>> before microscopes were invented.
>>
>> The rules and concepts of untouchability are drilled into Brahmin
>> children from infancy, and we practice it scrupulously even if it is banned
>> by law in India. And it's not as if we dont believe in Western medicine
>> systems or science, I was drilled by my grandfather who was the Director
>> General of India's Armed Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of India), to the
>> extent that even the metal cutlery at his dining table was "autoclaved"
>> before we used them.
>>
>> The people who are contracting and dying of COVID in India are the ones
>> who are fated to do so because of their own foolishness and ignorance, and
>> also because India's government wanted them to die.
>> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563
>>
>> Sarbajit Roy
>> New Delhi, India
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the
>>> science and tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is
>>> amazingly cool what people can do what we decide to do so.
>>> you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos from people that
>>> made the vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a translation on what
>>> it meant to map the genetics. RNA. mRNA.  And when I learned how safe the
>>> vaccine was. Then I decided I couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds
>>> like that's the opposite what some people are doing. It sounds like the
>>> hear: this was made using new medical technology, that hasn't neneded to be
>>> tested outside of labs until now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt.
>>> Which is a shame.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Pieter Steenekamp]

Sarbajit,

When covid started I was very worried about India with it's high population
density. But according to
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries the deaths/1M
population in India is 313. In the USA, for example, the figure is 1950
deaths/1M population.

Further, according to
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/ India seems to be
dodging the delta variant, because the daily new cases has been dropping
since May and seems to be staying low.

My point is, India seems to be doing relatively less bad than many other
countries.

Then, there seems to be relatively high prophylactic and early treatment
use of ivermectin in India.
Refer to:
https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/lucknow/uttar-pradesh-government-says-ivermectin-helped-to-keep-deaths-low-7311786/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/05/11/indian-state-will-offer-ivermectin-to-entire-adult-population---even-as-who-warns-against-its-use-as-covid-19-treatment/?sh=18acd8956d9f
https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epidemiologic-analyses-on-covid19-and-ivermectin/
https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/columnists/indias-ivermectin-blackout---part-iii-the-lesson-of-kerala/article_ccecb97e-044e-11ec-9112-2b31ae87887a.html

I'd like to have your views on this. Is there a possible causal link
between the use of ivermectin and low new covid infections in India?

Pieter









On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 at 04:42, Sarbajit Roy  wrote:

> Hi
>
> I would like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally distasteful)
> perspective on this from India.
>
> India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19 infections and
> deaths after the USA.
>
> However, within India, there is a small class of people, like me, called
> Adi Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste,  who don't wear masks or take
> clinically unproven or untested vaccinations, mainly because we continually
> practice an ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since
> Brahmins are traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, we
> have known about virii, fomites, their modes of transmission, and how they
> cause infection and disease for centuries and we knew this empirically even
> before microscopes were invented.
>
> The rules and concepts of untouchability are drilled into Brahmin children
> from infancy, and we practice it scrupulously even if it is banned by law
> in India. And it's not as if we dont believe in Western medicine systems or
> science, I was drilled by my grandfather who was the Director General of
> India's Armed Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of India), to the extent that
> even the metal cutlery at his dining table was "autoclaved" before we used
> them.
>
> The people who are contracting and dying of COVID in India are the ones
> who are fated to do so because of their own foolishness and ignorance, and
> also because India's government wanted them to die.
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563
>
> Sarbajit Roy
> New Delhi, India
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
>> Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the
>> science and tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is
>> amazingly cool what people can do what we decide to do so.
>> you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos from people that made
>> the vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a translation on what it
>> meant to map the genetics. RNA. mRNA.  And when I learned how safe the
>> vaccine was. Then I decided I couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds
>> like that's the opposite what some people are doing. It sounds like the
>> hear: this was made using new medical technology, that hasn't neneded to be
>> tested outside of labs until now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt.
>> Which is a shame.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have
>>> sufficient capacity.   Through a triage process they can prioritize.   It
>>> must happen already, even if it isn't legal.  Oh, the local drug addict is
>>> here again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors.
>>> If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply
>>> refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't
>>> need to be a mandate.   And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting
>>> allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.  No
>>> shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service.
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM
>>> To: friam@redfish.com
>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>>>
>>> That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is
>>> largely irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious
>>> with a gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been va