Re: [FRIAM] new math of complexity
I find that Michael Levin speaks elaborately and eloquently on the code/environment duality in many interesting contexts: https://drmichaellevin.org/ On 6/12/24 4:30 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote: Emergence as a kind of “software in the natural world"? If we mean code by it, then yes, certainly. Every developer knows that each piece of code which is added makes the system more complex. Therefore we usually try to keep it simple. For biological systems it is the DNA code. For cultural systems it is the hidden code people do not want to talk about because everything related to it is sacred (at least for the group which it defines). The knights templar had their own code, the order of the cistercians, the Franciscans and the other religious orders and organizations as well. Cults and sects have their code ( which can be simple political slogans such as "Make Your Country Great Again", "Build the wall" and "Lock them up" or simply "Do not criticize the supreme leader"). Criminal organizations have their code. Ideologies and political parties have their code. Behind every complex organism or organization there seems to be some form of code or DNA that generates and maintains it. Whenever something is happening in nature it is either supper or pairing time. Obviously because the underlying "selfish" code has created bodies which have the directive to maintain and replicate themselves. If we look at cultural systems, for instance at political conventions or at religious congregations, then we notice that every time something is really happening at a larger scale is that the code becomes active. People come together to read or express laws, rules, guidelines and policies. So I would say yes, if there is a secret then it is the code. Definitely. Is there a new math for it? IMO it is quite hard to formulate the expression of such a code in general mathematically. For example how can you describe mathematically if the speech of a president or party leader or priest has bigger consequences or not? It is at least as complicated as calculating a path integral in Quantum Field Theory. What might be possible is to calculate a probability how a group behavior changes depending how frequent a rule is read, remembered and expressed. -J. Original message From: Roger Critchlow Date: 6/12/24 8:05 PM (GMT+01:00) To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: [FRIAM] new math of complexity Speaking of emergence, any takes on Phillip Ball's article in Quanta? https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-new-math-of-how-large-scale-order-emerges-20240610/ I really liked his summary of the current non-explanations for emergence, but I haven't had time to read further. -- rec -- -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoomhttps://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribehttp://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIChttp://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru presenthttps://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] new math of complexity
Without looking at an actual publication by Rosas et al, I can't be optimistic or pessimistic. But I can object to Ball's examples of the 1st 2 types of closure: information and causal. The examples he lists: predictability of laptop output and controllability of laptop output are obviously flawed. The former is fairly easy to disprove. The typical aphorism is that all software contains bugs (barring the infrequently used formal methods). We have this entire, I think dominant, conceptual category of "bug" that should demonstrate a lack of that kind of "informational closure" ... at least in the wild if not in the lab. The objections for the latter are more persnickety. Again, in the lab where the unprofessional techie can get away with saying things like "Well, it works for me" because there are detailed, documented methods. And if "it doesn't work for you", then you're just doing it wrong. But in the wild, "it works for me" is entirely inadequate. So, again, we have an entire conceptual category grown from the lack of causal closure in laptop controllability. Maybe, though, this is simply validation of Ball's suggestion that life (or deeply interactive computation) is leaky ... maybe even very leaky such that any mathematical definition of computational closure we compose, it's Platonic, merely a useful fiction. On 6/12/24 12:43, steve smith wrote: Speaking of emergence, any takes on Phillip Ball's article in Quanta? https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-new-math-of-how-large-scale-order-emerges-20240610/ I really liked his summary of the current non-explanations for emergence, but I haven't had time to read further. -- rec -- As a member of a group here roughly described as "Complexity Groupies" I am heartened to hear Ball's acknowledgement that "nobody" really seems to have a good explanation of "what emergence is". It feels parallel to art and pornography in the sense of "I don't know what it is, but I know it when I see it". Terrence Deacon's classifications of dynamic systems seems to provide some insight or fine structure to emergence, though I don't know if it is widely interesting or helpful to others. He applies it primarily to life unto consciousness studies. It seems particularly apt to Ball's references to "heirarchical" systems while his references to "leaky" emergence rhymes (a little for me) with Herb Simon's "partially decomposable" systems. As an aside, I don't think I would have recognized Crutchfield... I haven't seen him in person since about 2009 when he was doing an art-project with Woody Vasulka and microphone/speaker/ambient-space dynamical systems at the old bank building downtown? Or maybe it was a few years earlier... Deacon's classification system: *homeodynamic:*A system is homeodynamic if its spontaneous, natural or unforced path leads towards equilibrium. Homeodynamics erases differences (e.g., in temperature or pressure). *morphodynamic:*A system is morphodynamic if it tends to spontaneously increase in order. This generally involves external perturbations, but does not involve external design or imposition of form. Morphodynamics subsumes many standard examples of self-organization. Morphodynamics amplifies differences. *teleodynamic:*A system is teleodynamic if its organization becomes spontaneously end-directed. Teleodynamic systems employ homeodynamic and morphodynamic processes in the service of a self. Terms like ‘self-maintenance’ and ‘self-repair’ become natural and unavoidable in teleodynamic systems. -- ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] new math of complexity
Speaking of emergence, any takes on Phillip Ball's article in Quanta? https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-new-math-of-how-large-scale-order-emerges-20240610/ I really liked his summary of the current non-explanations for emergence, but I haven't had time to read further. -- rec -- As a member of a group here roughly described as "Complexity Groupies" I am heartened to hear Ball's acknowledgement that "nobody" really seems to have a good explanation of "what emergence is". It feels parallel to art and pornography in the sense of "I don't know what it is, but I know it when I see it". Terrence Deacon's classifications of dynamic systems seems to provide some insight or fine structure to emergence, though I don't know if it is widely interesting or helpful to others. He applies it primarily to life unto consciousness studies. It seems particularly apt to Ball's references to "heirarchical" systems while his references to "leaky" emergence rhymes (a little for me) with Herb Simon's "partially decomposable" systems. As an aside, I don't think I would have recognized Crutchfield... I haven't seen him in person since about 2009 when he was doing an art-project with Woody Vasulka and microphone/speaker/ambient-space dynamical systems at the old bank building downtown? Or maybe it was a few years earlier... Deacon's classification system: *homeodynamic:*A system is homeodynamic if its spontaneous, natural or unforced path leads towards equilibrium. Homeodynamics erases differences (e.g., in temperature or pressure). *morphodynamic:*A system is morphodynamic if it tends to spontaneously increase in order. This generally involves external perturbations, but does not involve external design or imposition of form. Morphodynamics subsumes many standard examples of self-organization. Morphodynamics amplifies differences. *teleodynamic:*A system is teleodynamic if its organization becomes spontaneously end-directed. Teleodynamic systems employ homeodynamic and morphodynamic processes in the service of a self. Terms like ‘self-maintenance’ and ‘self-repair’ become natural and unavoidable in teleodynamic systems. -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
[FRIAM] new math of complexity
Speaking of emergence, any takes on Phillip Ball's article in Quanta? https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-new-math-of-how-large-scale-order-emerges-20240610/ I really liked his summary of the current non-explanations for emergence, but I haven't had time to read further. -- rec -- -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] what is a poor behaviorist (Nick) supposed to do?
Thanks Glen for tucking in. This weather thing (and the garden thing) are eating up all my time. I think I agree with you. Let that be a lesson to you. Nick On Wed, Jun 12, 2024 at 10:21 AM glen wrote: > Although the Atlantic article has little to do with the C-word, I was > happy to find my point already in it: > > "We struggle enough to see the perspectives of other people;" > > The extent to which we "other" things is a difference of degree, not kind. > This is, again, why analogical thinking is more useful than metaphorical > thinking. I am analogous to both my sibling and my cat. The important point > is not *that* there is an analogy to be made. The important points are the > strength and type (structural and/or behavioral) of that analogy. > > From the PopMech article: "By studying their motivations and > decision-making, we’ll find more ways to manipulate cells, such as > interrupting their processes." > > What they're talking about, in what I think are more useful words, are > high order languages or perhaps "emergent behavior", where things like > "decision-making" are high order processes comprised of low order or > primitive processes. It's often useful to include those macros as > convenient shortcuts for the code that's closer to the metal (or chemistry, > here). But to what extent are those high order operators extant/real such > that they can *cause* effects? ... a causation that's not reducible to > merely complicated causation of the lower orders? > > That's the crux of the argument between those who claim scales of psychism > and those who argue the higher order constructs are different in an > actionable/effective way. > > > On 6/11/24 13:06, Prof David West wrote: > > animals are conscious? The author studies birds as did/does Nick (when > not obsessed with dry lines). > > > > > https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2024/06/new-anthropomorphism/678611/ > > > > are humans conscious; as well as every cell of their body? > > > > > https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a61059424/every-cell-in-your-body-could-be-conscious/ > > > -- > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] what is a poor behaviorist (Nick) supposed to do?
Although the Atlantic article has little to do with the C-word, I was happy to find my point already in it: "We struggle enough to see the perspectives of other people;" The extent to which we "other" things is a difference of degree, not kind. This is, again, why analogical thinking is more useful than metaphorical thinking. I am analogous to both my sibling and my cat. The important point is not *that* there is an analogy to be made. The important points are the strength and type (structural and/or behavioral) of that analogy. From the PopMech article: "By studying their motivations and decision-making, we’ll find more ways to manipulate cells, such as interrupting their processes." What they're talking about, in what I think are more useful words, are high order languages or perhaps "emergent behavior", where things like "decision-making" are high order processes comprised of low order or primitive processes. It's often useful to include those macros as convenient shortcuts for the code that's closer to the metal (or chemistry, here). But to what extent are those high order operators extant/real such that they can *cause* effects? ... a causation that's not reducible to merely complicated causation of the lower orders? That's the crux of the argument between those who claim scales of psychism and those who argue the higher order constructs are different in an actionable/effective way. On 6/11/24 13:06, Prof David West wrote: animals are conscious? The author studies birds as did/does Nick (when not obsessed with dry lines). https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2024/06/new-anthropomorphism/678611/ are humans conscious; as well as every cell of their body? https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a61059424/every-cell-in-your-body-could-be-conscious/ -- ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
