Re: [FRIAM] Objective Reality Doesn’t Exist. We’ve Known This for a Century. It’s Time to Embrace It and Move On. | by Casper Wilstrup | Machine Consciousness | Medium

2024-06-03 Thread Nicholas Thompson 
Hi,  Everybody,

I don't know how my post dinner thank you note got into this feed.  I
apologise for that.

Hi, David.
Great to hear from you.   The New england town Hall was Dewey's model o
democracy.

But Biden is precisely not a charismatic leader, right?

NIck  .

On Sat, Jun 1, 2024 at 11:22 AM Prof David West 
wrote:

> Nick said,
>
> *"In democracy, we find  some way to blend our experiences into a common
> view."*
>
> If the "democracy" of which you speak is that of the New England Town
> Hall, or that of tribal societies of long ago, you are probably reasonably
> accurate.
>
> However, that sense of "democracy" no longer exists, at least here in the
> US. Regardless of how one votes, the result is absolutely and completely 
> *assigning
> X   the job of determining our common reality*.
>
> davew
>
> On Fri, May 31, 2024, at 9:58 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>
> This (see below) got served up to me out of the blue this morning.  The
> way it's put here, Frank and Bruce might actually agree with it.  Still,
> it's straight Peirce.  I have no idea who the author is; do any of you?
>
> Here's crucial passage.
>
> *Our understanding of reality needs a complete overhaul. Rather than
> viewing it as a fixed, external stage upon which events play out, we should
> consider it as a dynamic interplay between observers and their
> environment [*experiences*]. Reality, in this view, doesn’t reside out
> there, independent of us. Instead, reality is our interactions with the
> world  [*one another*], shaped and defined by our observations [*
> experiences*]. Reality is nothing but [*the telos of*] those interactions
> between subjects.*
>
> I had to make those little changes because the author,  like so many
> aspiring monists, after arguing against observer independence for a hundred
> words, slips up by implying that the "environment" is anything but
> something else that we have to agree upon, if we are ever going to get on
> with life.
>
> By the way,  I stipulate that nothing in his argument has ANYTHING to do
> with quantum mechanics. The argument would be sound even if the idea of a
> quantum had never been thought.  However, I like the idea of physics as
> some kind of language of convergent belief.
>
> By the way,  In history there seem to have been two ways for people
> converge on a common experience, charisma and democracy.  In charisma, we
> pick some idiot (usually a psychopath) and share his or her experience.  In
> democracy, we find  some way to blend our experiences into a common view.
> Sometime in the next few months we will decide which way we want to go.
>  Do we want to assign Trump the job of determining our common reality, or
> do we want to continue to work it out amongst ourselves through experiment
> and argument.
>
> Weather gorgeous here in the mosquito infested swamp.  Garden thriving.  A
> much better year.
>
> Watch that dry line in TX.  It's truly amazing.  Can it really be true
> that I am the only weather fanatic on a list that is devoted to
> complexity?   How can that be?
>
> NIck
>
>
>
>
> https://medium.com/machine-cognition/objective-reality-doesnt-exist-it-is-time-to-accept-it-and-move-on-7524b494d6af
>
> 
> Objective Reality Doesn’t Exist: It is Time to Embrace it and Move On
> 
> The shift towards a unified, observer-dependent reality forces us to let
> go — once and for all — of the idea of objective reality
> medium.com
>
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Objective Reality Doesn’t Exist. We’ve Known This for a Century. It’s Time to Embrace It and Move On. | by Casper Wilstrup | Machine Consciousness | Medium

2024-06-03 Thread Santafe 
It’s funny.

The way it came out when I wrote it was as you read, but different from the 
thing that brought the term to mind.

I did read the Huffpost piece Frank forwarded (there; admitted it).  And the 
sense was that there can’t be really _all_ that many foot fetishists in the 
world.  For the Gen-Zers to somehow let their lives be dictated by the fact 
that some distinctive group exists on the margins, and that because they 
couldn’t put down the phone and never left the bedroom, they know about those 
people, really gives easy targets for all the tropes people level against them. 
 

I mean; really?

Wagging the dog works for that too, though.  I don’t know if there’s a greek 
root for it.



> On Jun 4, 2024, at 8:31 AM, glen  wrote:
> 
> I don't think "extreme" is the right concept. I think a concept like 
> "insubstantial but high influence" ... something like "sensitive" or "agile". 
> For that, I like canard: 
> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.etymonline.com%2fword%2fcanard%2c=E,1,npxdZq4bwaeRH64d007qgaQ3IjXRtkPFNtPZPKvzCkMSBy7Joy8bAVWEKax5WOyVEjUoP35oB5fIWChDhX2xoNQhYspvX4L0mBUBL_Fs2dQ3fl-BWQ,,=1
>  which I learned in the context of missiles. But "government by canard" seems 
> close to "wag the dog". So that's where I'd start my search.
> 
> On 6/3/24 15:59, Santafe wrote:
>> Is there a Greek root to build a word for Government by the Extremes?
>>> On Jun 4, 2024, at 6:42 AM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>>> 
>>> This is the article I had in mind
>>> 
>>> https://www.huffpost.com/entry/why-gen-z-wont-show-their-feet_l_64cd1b52e4b01796c06c0cc4
> 
> -- 
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] Objective Reality Doesn’t Exist. We’ve Known This for a Century. It’s Time to Embrace It and Move On. | by Casper Wilstrup | Machine Consciousness | Medium

2024-06-03 Thread glen 

I don't think "extreme" is the right concept. I think a concept like "insubstantial but high influence" ... something 
like "sensitive" or "agile". For that, I like canard: https://www.etymonline.com/word/canard, which I learned in the 
context of missiles. But "government by canard" seems close to "wag the dog". So that's where I'd start my search.

On 6/3/24 15:59, Santafe wrote:

Is there a Greek root to build a word for Government by the Extremes?


On Jun 4, 2024, at 6:42 AM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:

This is the article I had in mind

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/why-gen-z-wont-show-their-feet_l_64cd1b52e4b01796c06c0cc4


--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

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Re: [FRIAM] Objective Reality Doesn’t Exist. We’ve Known This for a Century. It’s Time to Embrace It and Move On. | by Casper Wilstrup | Machine Consciousness | Medium

2024-06-03 Thread Santafe 
Is there a Greek root to build a word for Government by the Extremes?

> On Jun 4, 2024, at 6:42 AM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:
> 
> This is the article I had in mind
> 
> https://www.huffpost.com/entry/why-gen-z-wont-show-their-feet_l_64cd1b52e4b01796c06c0cc4
> 
> 
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
> 
> On Fri, May 31, 2024, 9:34 AM Frank Wimberly  wrote:
> It exists in my mind.  Joke.
> 
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
> 
> On Fri, May 31, 2024, 8:59 AM Nicholas Thompson  
> wrote:
> This (see below) got served up to me out of the blue this morning.  The way 
> it's put here, Frank and Bruce might actually agree with it.  Still, it's 
> straight Peirce.  I have no idea who the author is; do any of you?
> 
> Here's crucial passage.
> 
> Our understanding of reality needs a complete overhaul. Rather than viewing 
> it as a fixed, external stage upon which events play out, we should consider 
> it as a dynamic interplay between observers and their environment 
> [experiences]. Reality, in this view, doesn’t reside out there, independent 
> of us. Instead, reality is our interactions with the world  [one another], 
> shaped and defined by our observations [experiences]. Reality is nothing but 
> [the telos of] those interactions between subjects.
> 
> I had to make those little changes because the author,  like so many aspiring 
> monists, after arguing against observer independence for a hundred words, 
> slips up by implying that the "environment" is anything but something else 
> that we have to agree upon, if we are ever going to get on with life. 
> 
> By the way,  I stipulate that nothing in his argument has ANYTHING to do with 
> quantum mechanics. The argument would be sound even if the idea of a quantum 
> had never been thought.  However, I like the idea of physics as some kind of 
> language of convergent belief.  
> 
> By the way,  In history there seem to have been two ways for people converge 
> on a common experience, charisma and democracy.  In charisma, we pick some 
> idiot (usually a psychopath) and share his or her experience.  In democracy, 
> we find  some way to blend our experiences into a common view.  Sometime in 
> the next few months we will decide which way we want to go.   Do we want to 
> assign Trump the job of determining our common reality, or do we want to 
> continue to work it out amongst ourselves through experiment and argument.  
> 
> Weather gorgeous here in the mosquito infested swamp.  Garden thriving.  A 
> much better year.  
> 
> Watch that dry line in TX.  It's truly amazing.  Can it really be true that I 
> am the only weather fanatic on a list that is devoted to complexity?   How 
> can that be?
> 
> NIck
> 
> 
> 
> https://medium.com/machine-cognition/objective-reality-doesnt-exist-it-is-time-to-accept-it-and-move-on-7524b494d6af
> 
> Objective Reality Doesn’t Exist: It is Time to Embrace it and Move On
> The shift towards a unified, observer-dependent reality forces us to let go — 
> once and for all — of the idea of objective reality
> medium.com
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] Objective Reality Doesn’t Exist. We’ve Known This for a Century. It’s Time to Embrace It and Move On. | by Casper Wilstrup | Machine Consciousness | Medium

2024-06-03 Thread glen 

The privileged are always surprised when their privilege is called out.

On 6/3/24 14:42, Frank Wimberly wrote:

This is the article I had in mind

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/why-gen-z-wont-show-their-feet_l_64cd1b52e4b01796c06c0cc4
 



--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

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Re: [FRIAM] Objective Reality Doesn’t Exist. We’ve Known This for a Century. It’s Time to Embrace It and Move On. | by Casper Wilstrup | Machine Consciousness | Medium

2024-06-03 Thread Frank Wimberly 
This is the article I had in mind

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/why-gen-z-wont-show-their-feet_l_64cd1b52e4b01796c06c0cc4


---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, May 31, 2024, 9:34 AM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> It exists in my mind.  Joke.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Fri, May 31, 2024, 8:59 AM Nicholas Thompson 
> wrote:
>
>> This (see below) got served up to me out of the blue this morning.  The
>> way it's put here, Frank and Bruce might actually agree with it.  Still,
>> it's straight Peirce.  I have no idea who the author is; do any of you?
>>
>> Here's crucial passage.
>>
>> *Our understanding of reality needs a complete overhaul. Rather than
>> viewing it as a fixed, external stage upon which events play out, we should
>> consider it as a dynamic interplay between observers and their
>> environment [*experiences*]. Reality, in this view, doesn’t reside out
>> there, independent of us. Instead, reality is our interactions with the
>> world  [*one another*], shaped and defined by our observations [*
>> experiences*]. Reality is nothing but [*the telos of*] those
>> interactions between subjects.*
>>
>> I had to make those little changes because the author,  like so many
>> aspiring monists, after arguing against observer independence for a hundred
>> words, slips up by implying that the "environment" is anything but
>> something else that we have to agree upon, if we are ever going to get on
>> with life.
>>
>> By the way,  I stipulate that nothing in his argument has ANYTHING to do
>> with quantum mechanics. The argument would be sound even if the idea of a
>> quantum had never been thought.  However, I like the idea of physics as
>> some kind of language of convergent belief.
>>
>> By the way,  In history there seem to have been two ways for people
>> converge on a common experience, charisma and democracy.  In charisma, we
>> pick some idiot (usually a psychopath) and share his or her experience.  In
>> democracy, we find  some way to blend our experiences into a common view.
>> Sometime in the next few months we will decide which way we want to go.
>>  Do we want to assign Trump the job of determining our common reality, or
>> do we want to continue to work it out amongst ourselves through experiment
>> and argument.
>>
>> Weather gorgeous here in the mosquito infested swamp.  Garden thriving.
>> A much better year.
>>
>> Watch that dry line in TX.  It's truly amazing.  Can it really be true
>> that I am the only weather fanatic on a list that is devoted to
>> complexity?   How can that be?
>>
>> NIck
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://medium.com/machine-cognition/objective-reality-doesnt-exist-it-is-time-to-accept-it-and-move-on-7524b494d6af
>>
>> 
>> Objective Reality Doesn’t Exist: It is Time to Embrace it and Move On
>> 
>> The shift towards a unified, observer-dependent reality forces us to let
>> go — once and for all — of the idea of objective reality
>> medium.com
>>
>>
>>
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
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>>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Objective Reality Doesn’t Exist. We’ve Known This for a Century. It’s Time to Embrace It and Move On. | by Casper Wilstrup | Machine Consciousness | Medium

2024-06-03 Thread Frank Wimberly 
You have Gen Z friends?  According to the NYT they won't let you see their
bare feet.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/01/style/open-toe-sandal-appropriate.html

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Jun 3, 2024, 12:34 PM glen  wrote:

> IDK. Were we to allow that
>
> a) X merely means a singular, mostly atomic, thing, and
> b) "determine" means what most of us think it means,
>
> then you'd be right. A better way to state it would be:
>
> In the US, our collection of mechanisms for selecting the most powerful,
> but not all-powerful, person in our federa[l|ated] and hierarchically
> composed government carries too much structural/systemic bias for a
> reasonable person to describe it as "democratic". Nick's gloss was way too
> vague for one to use that more refined statement to contradict his. If we
> allow democracy to be a spectrum, some more, some less, democratic, then
> Nick's statement stands well enough. But as my Gen Z friends are telling me
> on a daily basis, they're not going to vote in November because it doesn't
> matter. Biden and Trump are the same person. Both lie. And even if/when
> they're not lying, whatever they intend to do will be subverted by or
> enervated with the noxious intentions of the oligarchs or self-aggrandizing
> agendas of the rest of the politicians, including SCOTUS.
>
> But even that sentiment (that the whole system is Borked) contradicts one
> of the normal interpretations of the word "determined". Such a frothing
> mess my be deterministic. But if it is, it's chaotic; so much so that
> morons like Trump wouldn't be capable of "determining our common reality".
> And even if we broaden the conception of "determine" out to mean something
> Rawlsian like the veil of ignorance, that which of Trump or Biden is
> elected will (or not) somehow affect the power status on the other side of
> the veil, my Gen Z friends would say it does not. The Musks and Thiels will
> still be the most powerful people on the planet come next year, regardless
> of who is elected. So neither Biden nor Trump "determine" our common
> reality in any meaningful sense, though they may well add a tiny little
> bias in some very large space.
>
>
> On 6/1/24 08:28, Prof David West wrote:
> > Nick said,
> >
> > /"In democracy, we find  some way to blend our experiences into a common
> view."/
> >
> > If the "democracy" of which you speak is that of the New England Town
> Hall, or that of tribal societies of long ago, you are probably reasonably
> accurate.
> >
> > However, that sense of "democracy" no longer exists, at least here in
> the US. Regardless of how one votes, the result is absolutely and
> completely *assigning   X   the job of determining our common reality*.
> >
> > davew
> >
> > On Fri, May 31, 2024, at 9:58 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> >> This (see below) got served up to me out of the blue this morning.  The
> way it's put here, Frank and Bruce might actually agree with it.  Still,
> it's straight Peirce.  I have no idea who the author is; do any of you?
> >>
> >> Here's crucial passage.
> >>
> >> /Our understanding of reality needs a complete overhaul. Rather than
> viewing it as a fixed, external stage upon which events play out, we should
> consider it as a dynamic interplay between observers and their
> environment [/experiences/]. Reality, in this view, doesn’t reside out
> there, independent of us. Instead, reality is our interactions with the
> world  [/one another/], shaped and defined by our
> observations [/experiences/]. Reality is nothing but [/the telos of/] those
> interactions between subjects./
> >>
> >> I had to make those little changes because the author,  like so many
> aspiring monists, after arguing against observer independence for a hundred
> words, slips up by implying that the "environment" is anything but
> something else that we have to agree upon, if we are ever going to get on
> with life.
> >>
> >> By the way,  I stipulate that nothing in his argument has ANYTHING to
> do with quantum mechanics. The argument would be sound even if the idea of
> a quantum had never been thought.  However, I like the idea of physics as
> some kind of language of convergent belief.
> >>
> >> By the way,  In history there seem to have been two ways for people
> converge on a common experience, charisma and democracy.  In charisma, we
> pick some idiot (usually a psychopath) and share his or her experience.  In
> democracy, we find  some way to blend our experiences into a common view.
> Sometime in the next few months we will decide which way we want to go.
>  Do we want to assign Trump the job of determining our common reality, or
> do we want to continue to work it out amongst ourselves through experiment
> and argument.
> >>
> >> Weather gorgeous here in the mosquito infested swamp.  Garden
> thriving.  A much better year.
> >>
> >> Watch that dry line in TX.  It's truly amazing.  Can it really be true
> that I

Re: [FRIAM] Objective Reality Doesn’t Exist. We’ve Known This for a Century. It’s Time to Embrace It and Move On. | by Casper Wilstrup | Machine Consciousness | Medium

2024-06-03 Thread Prof David West 
As always, glen is far more diplomatic and philosophical than I.

My reaction to Nick's innocuous words was entirely visceral: I do not see the 
good/evil choice that he does.

If I am being charitable, each major candidate is a medium, channeling—
not so charitable, each is an effluent orifice, spewing—
—ideas, and words, and actions to which neither can claim authorship.

If I examine the torrents, I do find that one contains more of that which I 
find personally offensive / personally harmful. But whichever stream I am 
forced to swim in, it is not as if I had a choice.

I am enough of a socio/psychopath that I feel no obligation to 'protect' anyone 
else from whichever stream they happen to find most distasteful.

davew


On Mon, Jun 3, 2024, at 1:33 PM, glen wrote:
> IDK. Were we to allow that
>
> a) X merely means a singular, mostly atomic, thing, and
> b) "determine" means what most of us think it means,
>
> then you'd be right. A better way to state it would be:
>
> In the US, our collection of mechanisms for selecting the most 
> powerful, but not all-powerful, person in our federa[l|ated] and 
> hierarchically composed government carries too much structural/systemic 
> bias for a reasonable person to describe it as "democratic". Nick's 
> gloss was way too vague for one to use that more refined statement to 
> contradict his. If we allow democracy to be a spectrum, some more, some 
> less, democratic, then Nick's statement stands well enough. But as my 
> Gen Z friends are telling me on a daily basis, they're not going to 
> vote in November because it doesn't matter. Biden and Trump are the 
> same person. Both lie. And even if/when they're not lying, whatever 
> they intend to do will be subverted by or enervated with the noxious 
> intentions of the oligarchs or self-aggrandizing agendas of the rest of 
> the politicians, including SCOTUS.
>
> But even that sentiment (that the whole system is Borked) contradicts 
> one of the normal interpretations of the word "determined". Such a 
> frothing mess my be deterministic. But if it is, it's chaotic; so much 
> so that morons like Trump wouldn't be capable of "determining our 
> common reality". And even if we broaden the conception of "determine" 
> out to mean something Rawlsian like the veil of ignorance, that which 
> of Trump or Biden is elected will (or not) somehow affect the power 
> status on the other side of the veil, my Gen Z friends would say it 
> does not. The Musks and Thiels will still be the most powerful people 
> on the planet come next year, regardless of who is elected. So neither 
> Biden nor Trump "determine" our common reality in any meaningful sense, 
> though they may well add a tiny little bias in some very large space.
>
>
> On 6/1/24 08:28, Prof David West wrote:
>> Nick said,
>> 
>> /"In democracy, we find  some way to blend our experiences into a common 
>> view."/
>> 
>> If the "democracy" of which you speak is that of the New England Town Hall, 
>> or that of tribal societies of long ago, you are probably reasonably 
>> accurate.
>> 
>> However, that sense of "democracy" no longer exists, at least here in the 
>> US. Regardless of how one votes, the result is absolutely and completely 
>> *assigning   X   the job of determining our common reality*.
>> 
>> davew
>> 
>> On Fri, May 31, 2024, at 9:58 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>>> This (see below) got served up to me out of the blue this morning.  The way 
>>> it's put here, Frank and Bruce might actually agree with it.  Still, it's 
>>> straight Peirce.  I have no idea who the author is; do any of you?
>>>
>>> Here's crucial passage.
>>>
>>> /Our understanding of reality needs a complete overhaul. Rather than 
>>> viewing it as a fixed, external stage upon which events play out, we should 
>>> consider it as a dynamic interplay between observers and their environment 
>>> [/experiences/]. Reality, in this view, doesn’t reside out there, 
>>> independent of us. Instead, reality is our interactions with the world  
>>> [/one another/], shaped and defined by our observations [/experiences/]. 
>>> Reality is nothing but [/the telos of/] those interactions between 
>>> subjects./
>>>
>>> I had to make those little changes because the author,  like so many 
>>> aspiring monists, after arguing against observer independence for a hundred 
>>> words, slips up by implying that the "environment" is anything but 
>>> something else that we have to agree upon, if we are ever going to get on 
>>> with life.
>>>
>>> By the way,  I stipulate that nothing in his argument has ANYTHING to do 
>>> with quantum mechanics. The argument would be sound even if the idea of a 
>>> quantum had never been thought.  However, I like the idea of physics as 
>>> some kind of language of convergent belief.
>>>
>>> By the way,  In history there seem to have been two ways for people 
>>> converge on a common experience, charisma and democracy.  In charisma, we 
>>> pick some idiot (usually a

Re: [FRIAM] Objective Reality Doesn’t Exist. We’ve Known This for a Century. It’s Time to Embrace It and Move On. | by Casper Wilstrup | Machine Consciousness | Medium

2024-06-03 Thread glen 

IDK. Were we to allow that

a) X merely means a singular, mostly atomic, thing, and
b) "determine" means what most of us think it means,

then you'd be right. A better way to state it would be:

In the US, our collection of mechanisms for selecting the most powerful, but not 
all-powerful, person in our federa[l|ated] and hierarchically composed government carries 
too much structural/systemic bias for a reasonable person to describe it as 
"democratic". Nick's gloss was way too vague for one to use that more refined 
statement to contradict his. If we allow democracy to be a spectrum, some more, some 
less, democratic, then Nick's statement stands well enough. But as my Gen Z friends are 
telling me on a daily basis, they're not going to vote in November because it doesn't 
matter. Biden and Trump are the same person. Both lie. And even if/when they're not 
lying, whatever they intend to do will be subverted by or enervated with the noxious 
intentions of the oligarchs or self-aggrandizing agendas of the rest of the politicians, 
including SCOTUS.

But even that sentiment (that the whole system is Borked) contradicts one of the normal interpretations of the word 
"determined". Such a frothing mess my be deterministic. But if it is, it's chaotic; so much so that morons 
like Trump wouldn't be capable of "determining our common reality". And even if we broaden the conception of 
"determine" out to mean something Rawlsian like the veil of ignorance, that which of Trump or Biden is 
elected will (or not) somehow affect the power status on the other side of the veil, my Gen Z friends would say it does 
not. The Musks and Thiels will still be the most powerful people on the planet come next year, regardless of who is 
elected. So neither Biden nor Trump "determine" our common reality in any meaningful sense, though they may 
well add a tiny little bias in some very large space.


On 6/1/24 08:28, Prof David West wrote:

Nick said,

/"In democracy, we find  some way to blend our experiences into a common view."/

If the "democracy" of which you speak is that of the New England Town Hall, or 
that of tribal societies of long ago, you are probably reasonably accurate.

However, that sense of "democracy" no longer exists, at least here in the US. 
Regardless of how one votes, the result is absolutely and completely *assigning   X   the 
job of determining our common reality*.

davew

On Fri, May 31, 2024, at 9:58 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

This (see below) got served up to me out of the blue this morning.  The way 
it's put here, Frank and Bruce might actually agree with it.  Still, it's 
straight Peirce.  I have no idea who the author is; do any of you?

Here's crucial passage.

/Our understanding of reality needs a complete overhaul. Rather than viewing it 
as a fixed, external stage upon which events play out, we should consider it as 
a dynamic interplay between observers and their environment [/experiences/]. 
Reality, in this view, doesn’t reside out there, independent of us. Instead, 
reality is our interactions with the world  [/one another/], shaped and defined 
by our observations [/experiences/]. Reality is nothing but [/the telos of/] 
those interactions between subjects./

I had to make those little changes because the author,  like so many aspiring monists, 
after arguing against observer independence for a hundred words, slips up by implying 
that the "environment" is anything but something else that we have to agree 
upon, if we are ever going to get on with life.

By the way,  I stipulate that nothing in his argument has ANYTHING to do with 
quantum mechanics. The argument would be sound even if the idea of a quantum 
had never been thought.  However, I like the idea of physics as some kind of 
language of convergent belief.

By the way,  In history there seem to have been two ways for people converge on 
a common experience, charisma and democracy.  In charisma, we pick some idiot 
(usually a psychopath) and share his or her experience.  In democracy, we find  
some way to blend our experiences into a common view.  Sometime in the next few 
months we will decide which way we want to go.   Do we want to assign Trump the 
job of determining our common reality, or do we want to continue to work it out 
amongst ourselves through experiment and argument.

Weather gorgeous here in the mosquito infested swamp.  Garden thriving.  A much 
better year.

Watch that dry line in TX.  It's truly amazing.  Can it really be true that I 
am the only weather fanatic on a list that is devoted to complexity?   How can 
that be?

NIck



https://medium.com/machine-cognition/objective-reality-doesnt-exist-it-is-time-to-accept-it-and-move-on-7524b494d6af
 



Objective

Re: [FRIAM] Objective Reality Doesn’t Exist. We’ve Known This for a Century. It’s Time to Embrace It and Move On. | by Casper Wilstrup | Machine Consciousness | Medium

2024-06-01 Thread Prof David West 
Nick said,

*"In democracy, we find  some way to blend our experiences into a common view."*

If the "democracy" of which you speak is that of the New England Town Hall, or 
that of tribal societies of long ago, you are probably reasonably accurate.

However, that sense of "democracy" no longer exists, at least here in the US. 
Regardless of how one votes, the result is absolutely and completely *assigning 
  X   the job of determining our common reality*.

davew

On Fri, May 31, 2024, at 9:58 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> This (see below) got served up to me out of the blue this morning.  The way 
> it's put here, Frank and Bruce might actually agree with it.  Still, it's 
> straight Peirce.  I have no idea who the author is; do any of you?
> 
> Here's crucial passage.
> 
> *Our understanding of reality needs a complete overhaul. Rather than viewing 
> it as a fixed, external stage upon which events play out, we should consider 
> it as a dynamic interplay between observers and their environment 
> [*experiences*]. Reality, in this view, doesn’t reside out there, independent 
> of us. Instead, reality is our interactions with the world  [*one another*], 
> shaped and defined by our observations [*experiences*]. Reality is nothing 
> but [*the telos of*] those interactions between subjects.*
> 
> I had to make those little changes because the author,  like so many aspiring 
> monists, after arguing against observer independence for a hundred words, 
> slips up by implying that the "environment" is anything but something else 
> that we have to agree upon, if we are ever going to get on with life. 
> 
> By the way,  I stipulate that nothing in his argument has ANYTHING to do with 
> quantum mechanics. The argument would be sound even if the idea of a quantum 
> had never been thought.  However, I like the idea of physics as some kind of 
> language of convergent belief.  
> 
> By the way,  In history there seem to have been two ways for people converge 
> on a common experience, charisma and democracy.  In charisma, we pick some 
> idiot (usually a psychopath) and share his or her experience.  In democracy, 
> we find  some way to blend our experiences into a common view.  Sometime in 
> the next few months we will decide which way we want to go.   Do we want to 
> assign Trump the job of determining our common reality, or do we want to 
> continue to work it out amongst ourselves through experiment and argument.  
> 
> Weather gorgeous here in the mosquito infested swamp.  Garden thriving.  A 
> much better year.  
> 
> Watch that dry line in TX.  It's truly amazing.  Can it really be true that I 
> am the only weather fanatic on a list that is devoted to complexity?   How 
> can that be?
> 
> NIck
> 
> 
> 
> https://medium.com/machine-cognition/objective-reality-doesnt-exist-it-is-time-to-accept-it-and-move-on-7524b494d6af
 

> Objective Reality Doesn’t Exist: It is Time to Embrace it and Move On 
> 
> The shift towards a unified, observer-dependent reality forces us to let go — 
> once and for all — of the idea of objective reality
> medium.com
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] Objective Reality Doesn’t Exist. We’ve Known This for a Century. It’s Time to Embrace It and Move On. | by Casper Wilstrup | Machine Consciousness | Medium

2024-05-31 Thread Santafe 
I read a little way in.

He should go on Joe Rogan.

Also, the graphic at the front is perfectly paired with the writing.

Eric

(apologies for the Lashon hara; I know one should not do that)

> On May 31, 2024, at 11:58 PM, Nicholas Thompson  
> wrote:
> 
> This (see below) got served up to me out of the blue this morning.  The way 
> it's put here, Frank and Bruce might actually agree with it.  Still, it's 
> straight Peirce.  I have no idea who the author is; do any of you?
> 
> Here's crucial passage.
> 
> Our understanding of reality needs a complete overhaul. Rather than viewing 
> it as a fixed, external stage upon which events play out, we should consider 
> it as a dynamic interplay between observers and their environment 
> [experiences]. Reality, in this view, doesn’t reside out there, independent 
> of us. Instead, reality is our interactions with the world  [one another], 
> shaped and defined by our observations [experiences]. Reality is nothing but 
> [the telos of] those interactions between subjects.
> 
> I had to make those little changes because the author,  like so many aspiring 
> monists, after arguing against observer independence for a hundred words, 
> slips up by implying that the "environment" is anything but something else 
> that we have to agree upon, if we are ever going to get on with life. 
> 
> By the way,  I stipulate that nothing in his argument has ANYTHING to do with 
> quantum mechanics. The argument would be sound even if the idea of a quantum 
> had never been thought.  However, I like the idea of physics as some kind of 
> language of convergent belief.  
> 
> By the way,  In history there seem to have been two ways for people converge 
> on a common experience, charisma and democracy.  In charisma, we pick some 
> idiot (usually a psychopath) and share his or her experience.  In democracy, 
> we find  some way to blend our experiences into a common view.  Sometime in 
> the next few months we will decide which way we want to go.   Do we want to 
> assign Trump the job of determining our common reality, or do we want to 
> continue to work it out amongst ourselves through experiment and argument.  
> 
> Weather gorgeous here in the mosquito infested swamp.  Garden thriving.  A 
> much better year.  
> 
> Watch that dry line in TX.  It's truly amazing.  Can it really be true that I 
> am the only weather fanatic on a list that is devoted to complexity?   How 
> can that be?
> 
> NIck
> 
> 
> 
> https://medium.com/machine-cognition/objective-reality-doesnt-exist-it-is-time-to-accept-it-and-move-on-7524b494d6af
> 
> Objective Reality Doesn’t Exist: It is Time to Embrace it and Move On
> The shift towards a unified, observer-dependent reality forces us to let go — 
> once and for all — of the idea of objective reality
> medium.com
> 
> 
> 
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> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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Re: [FRIAM] Objective Reality Doesn’t Exist. We’ve Known This for a Century. It’s Time to Embrace It and Move On. | by Casper Wilstrup | Machine Consciousness | Medium

2024-05-31 Thread Nicholas Thompson 
Given the meaning of the word EX-IST , that's not a joke that's a koan!

From: Friam  on behalf of Frank Wimberly 

Sent: Friday, May 31, 2024 9:34 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Objective Reality Doesn’t Exist. We’ve Known This for a 
Century. It’s Time to Embrace It and Move On. | by Casper Wilstrup | Machine 
Consciousness | Medium

It exists in my mind.  Joke.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, May 31, 2024, 8:59 AM Nicholas Thompson 
mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> wrote:
This (see below) got served up to me out of the blue this morning.  The way 
it's put here, Frank and Bruce might actually agree with it.  Still, it's 
straight Peirce.  I have no idea who the author is; do any of you?

Here's crucial passage.

Our understanding of reality needs a complete overhaul. Rather than viewing it 
as a fixed, external stage upon which events play out, we should consider it as 
a dynamic interplay between observers and their environment [experiences]. 
Reality, in this view, doesn’t reside out there, independent of us. Instead, 
reality is our interactions with the world  [one another], shaped and defined 
by our observations [experiences]. Reality is nothing but [the telos of] those 
interactions between subjects.

I had to make those little changes because the author,  like so many aspiring 
monists, after arguing against observer independence for a hundred words, slips 
up by implying that the "environment" is anything but something else that we 
have to agree upon, if we are ever going to get on with life.

By the way,  I stipulate that nothing in his argument has ANYTHING to do with 
quantum mechanics. The argument would be sound even if the idea of a quantum 
had never been thought.  However, I like the idea of physics as some kind of 
language of convergent belief.

By the way,  In history there seem to have been two ways for people converge on 
a common experience, charisma and democracy.  In charisma, we pick some idiot 
(usually a psychopath) and share his or her experience.  In democracy, we find  
some way to blend our experiences into a common view.  Sometime in the next few 
months we will decide which way we want to go.   Do we want to assign Trump the 
job of determining our common reality, or do we want to continue to work it out 
amongst ourselves through experiment and argument.

Weather gorgeous here in the mosquito infested swamp.  Garden thriving.  A much 
better year.

Watch that dry line in TX.  It's truly amazing.  Can it really be true that I 
am the only weather fanatic on a list that is devoted to complexity?   How can 
that be?

NIck



https://medium.com/machine-cognition/objective-reality-doesnt-exist-it-is-time-to-accept-it-and-move-on-7524b494d6af
[https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:1024/1*IdSFJSprGvub5ylF97CzHA.jpeg]
Objective Reality Doesn’t Exist: It is Time to Embrace it and Move 
On
The shift towards a unified, observer-dependent reality forces us to let go — 
once and for all — of the idea of objective reality
medium.com



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Re: [FRIAM] Objective Reality Doesn’t Exist. We’ve Known This for a Century. It’s Time to Embrace It and Move On. | by Casper Wilstrup | Machine Consciousness | Medium

2024-05-31 Thread Frank Wimberly 
It exists in my mind.  Joke.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, May 31, 2024, 8:59 AM Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> This (see below) got served up to me out of the blue this morning.  The
> way it's put here, Frank and Bruce might actually agree with it.  Still,
> it's straight Peirce.  I have no idea who the author is; do any of you?
>
> Here's crucial passage.
>
> *Our understanding of reality needs a complete overhaul. Rather than
> viewing it as a fixed, external stage upon which events play out, we should
> consider it as a dynamic interplay between observers and their
> environment [*experiences*]. Reality, in this view, doesn’t reside out
> there, independent of us. Instead, reality is our interactions with the
> world  [*one another*], shaped and defined by our observations [*
> experiences*]. Reality is nothing but [*the telos of*] those interactions
> between subjects.*
>
> I had to make those little changes because the author,  like so many
> aspiring monists, after arguing against observer independence for a hundred
> words, slips up by implying that the "environment" is anything but
> something else that we have to agree upon, if we are ever going to get on
> with life.
>
> By the way,  I stipulate that nothing in his argument has ANYTHING to do
> with quantum mechanics. The argument would be sound even if the idea of a
> quantum had never been thought.  However, I like the idea of physics as
> some kind of language of convergent belief.
>
> By the way,  In history there seem to have been two ways for people
> converge on a common experience, charisma and democracy.  In charisma, we
> pick some idiot (usually a psychopath) and share his or her experience.  In
> democracy, we find  some way to blend our experiences into a common view.
> Sometime in the next few months we will decide which way we want to go.
>  Do we want to assign Trump the job of determining our common reality, or
> do we want to continue to work it out amongst ourselves through experiment
> and argument.
>
> Weather gorgeous here in the mosquito infested swamp.  Garden thriving.  A
> much better year.
>
> Watch that dry line in TX.  It's truly amazing.  Can it really be true
> that I am the only weather fanatic on a list that is devoted to
> complexity?   How can that be?
>
> NIck
>
>
>
>
> https://medium.com/machine-cognition/objective-reality-doesnt-exist-it-is-time-to-accept-it-and-move-on-7524b494d6af
>
> 
> Objective Reality Doesn’t Exist: It is Time to Embrace it and Move On
> 
> The shift towards a unified, observer-dependent reality forces us to let
> go — once and for all — of the idea of objective reality
> medium.com
>
>
>
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[FRIAM] Objective Reality Doesn’t Exist. We’ve Known This for a Century. It’s Time to Embrace It and Move On. | by Casper Wilstrup | Machine Consciousness | Medium

2024-05-31 Thread Nicholas Thompson 
This (see below) got served up to me out of the blue this morning.  The way 
it's put here, Frank and Bruce might actually agree with it.  Still, it's 
straight Peirce.  I have no idea who the author is; do any of you?

Here's crucial passage.

Our understanding of reality needs a complete overhaul. Rather than viewing it 
as a fixed, external stage upon which events play out, we should consider it as 
a dynamic interplay between observers and their environment [experiences]. 
Reality, in this view, doesn’t reside out there, independent of us. Instead, 
reality is our interactions with the world  [one another], shaped and defined 
by our observations [experiences]. Reality is nothing but [the telos of] those 
interactions between subjects.

I had to make those little changes because the author,  like so many aspiring 
monists, after arguing against observer independence for a hundred words, slips 
up by implying that the "environment" is anything but something else that we 
have to agree upon, if we are ever going to get on with life.

By the way,  I stipulate that nothing in his argument has ANYTHING to do with 
quantum mechanics. The argument would be sound even if the idea of a quantum 
had never been thought.  However, I like the idea of physics as some kind of 
language of convergent belief.

By the way,  In history there seem to have been two ways for people converge on 
a common experience, charisma and democracy.  In charisma, we pick some idiot 
(usually a psychopath) and share his or her experience.  In democracy, we find  
some way to blend our experiences into a common view.  Sometime in the next few 
months we will decide which way we want to go.   Do we want to assign Trump the 
job of determining our common reality, or do we want to continue to work it out 
amongst ourselves through experiment and argument.

Weather gorgeous here in the mosquito infested swamp.  Garden thriving.  A much 
better year.

Watch that dry line in TX.  It's truly amazing.  Can it really be true that I 
am the only weather fanatic on a list that is devoted to complexity?   How can 
that be?

NIck



https://medium.com/machine-cognition/objective-reality-doesnt-exist-it-is-time-to-accept-it-and-move-on-7524b494d6af
[https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:1024/1*IdSFJSprGvub5ylF97CzHA.jpeg]
Objective Reality Doesn’t Exist: It is Time to Embrace it and Move 
On
The shift towards a unified, observer-dependent reality forces us to let go — 
once and for all — of the idea of objective reality
medium.com



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