Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
Those who seek cooperative or collaborative support, jointly generated, from others, should explain themselves to all as contributing a part of the joint effort, collaboration, and mutual responsibility. The same argument applies to not being exploitative in wage negotiations, poisoning backyards that can’t efford to push it off, colonialism, etc. I still think that what one doesn’t know is secondary to the point, though. This is all about holding a position that the society you live in is illegitimate, and wanting to act out your animosity toward it or contempt for it, as a kind of defiant expression of some kind of agency. Max Rose, I think it was, had some sort of good comment about this. We have to break out of the death spiral of having this as the motivation if we are to break out of the death spiral. Eric > On Aug 27, 2021, at 4:22 AM, Prof David West wrote: > > > > Explain themselves to _? To you? For the purpose of ___? Securing > your approval? > > > > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 1:13 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> They need to explain themselves, and it is entirely appropriate to make >> their lives risky and inconvenient until they do. >> >> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> >> On Behalf Of Prof David West >> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:07 PM >> To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side >> >> >> Glen is very sensitive to potential misrepresentation/misinterpretation of >> his words, as am I. I merely asked if Glen's sentences, which on their face >> seem to equate anti-vax and stupid, should be interpreted that way. In a >> sense I was trolling him because I know he would not make such a blanket and >> absolute assertion. >> >> However, the entire tenor of the thread, and the public rhetoric regarding >> people holding anti-vax positions seems, to me, to be grounded in exactly >> this kind of assertion: "if you (a person) are anti-vax you are stupid (and >> probably a Trumpista or at least a Republican). >> >> In my opinion this kind of assertion is wrong, harmful, and, if your goal >> is to increase vaccination rates, entirely counter-productive. >> >> davew >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 10:55 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote: >> > I addressed the stupid people vs stupid acts. Dave makes that >> > conflation. I don't. >> > >> > But re: punishment - I also never claimed stupidity should be punished. >> > I claimed stupidity should be painful. As a person who inflicts pain on >> > myself daily, on purpose, it would be silly to identify pain with >> > punishment. Futher, many of us are affected by chronic pain, often of >> > unknown mechanism/origin. Sophistry about the problem of Evil >> > notwithstanding, chronic pain is not the universe punishing you. The >> > story of Job is a stupid story. >> > >> > We *could* talk about pain as a mechanism for aversive learning, >> > though. The chronic pain I suffer from has taught me how to (and that I >> > must) moderately meter out my pain in order to avoid greater amounts of >> > pain. Pain has taught me a great deal. It's not a punishment in the >> > slightest sense of that word. >> > >> > On 8/26/21 9:44 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com >> > <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > > It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and >> > > "self-preservation". There is something incoherent about asserting that >> > > stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient features >> > > of stupidity is an inability to learn from experience. >> > > >> > > Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts? >> > -- >> > ☤>$ uǝlƃ >> > >> > - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . >> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam=E,1,_gXhctQxZmaJkmKeeWm3dibxB0WMDS9JefrAV4WTSzDGSqdf82GtrPQyLE4qtDXgrdWj13voJdwwCTsKVsoOB7HP1JjjOLHHg1wSszSOYTqtjw,,=1> >> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com=E,1,UjSlySURNv54_4f1Pob-CF7Y9Yceh380A3sa4BdG_ymNna1Dy7L5EqLoE16qvM8YkV-29I1WOIFEbxHRoExvq6RMxluJGOPbDBNe_W6OPljA=1> >> &
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
Two thoughts on your below, Jochen, which seem to me to belong in the list along with what you have: 1. If we don’t care what they called it — “element” — then the question is, were the classical Greeks as right as one could be at the time? We now use the word “element” to refer to a Mendeleev position within the atomic theory. But that doesn’t mean it was anything like that for them. If they meant by “element” that “you can cut it finer and finer, and its properties seem to remain the same”, then that is the definition of the independence of intensive from extensive state variables that defines the large-deviation limit, and for equilibrium systems, the meaning of phase. I have not met a Greek scholar with the chops to give me a Gian-Carlo Rota level of analysis of what a word “meant” to a given people at a given time. I actually would like to know what is the best possible handling of this question. 2. The second is heritability. To say a system wants a partition into phases doesn’t say anything about whether that partition should make use of hereditary lineages. Phases are instantaneously defined things in matter, so components take on whatever phase behavior they do based on how things are there, at that moment. But cf. Lewontin: there is a big difference between just-any variation in state, and a variation that is heritable. Here the question of social mobility as a specific character of cultural development enters. Even if you knew, at a fully-moden level, that genetics doesn’t transmit very many socially-consequential aptitudes — so kids of master chess players may or may not have the innate talent to allow their top level of development to stand out the same as the parent’s did, compared to anybody else with the same environmental support — you would still admit that children are raised in large part by their parents. So, many things that contribute to social capabilities — not only skills training, but habituation, social contacts, relations, etc. — are transmitted by the parents. To allow a “comparative advantage” in Ricardo’s sense to contribute some level of productive enhancement but to be based on mainly inborn proclivity and preference, and not mainly on parental resources, you need to provide quite a strong social support culture to allow kids to find out what their upper limit of ability and fulfillment will be, across the vast range of domains where they might find it. It makes hereditary caste comprehensible as a historical regularity, though disappointing if you believe it would be possible for a society to offer its people specialized development not pinned to parental transmission. Probably where societies are at the moment is somewhere in-between . Of course parents set up kids to have an easier shot at some things than at others. But the parts where a genetic marker isn’t being used by the society to lock in castes could still allow reasonable mobility on timescales of a couple of generations. Eric > On Aug 27, 2021, at 1:02 AM, Jochen Fromm wrote: > > I am reading "The Origins of Political Order" from Francis Fukuyama at the > moment and one thing I noticed is that the 4 classes from India's caste > system actually represent the division into religion (Brahmins, priestly > class), military (Kshatriyas, warrior class), economy (Vaishyas, merchant > class) and others (Shudras, manual workers) > https://www.dw.com/en/indias-caste-system-weakened-but-still-influential/a-39718124 > > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.dw.com%2fen%2findias-caste-system-weakened-but-still-influential%2fa-39718124=E,1,FNqiweHoaommSYW9rqj6Y8rKhvg1d7O1K7U2HuH7f4CgPHqXxikQ0Ae365lMNbxb6fsFoJgeHvXTMwui-NhmwVVG8nwmvG61daSZ-fdsumdUbUUxeCw9qQ,,=1_add=1> > > The Greek philosopher Empedocles argued the world is made of four elements - > fire, earth, air and water. There are no such elements, but there are indeed > four phases of matter - plasma, solid, gas and liquid. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_(matter) > > This means that the ancient Greeks and the ancient Indians were not > completely wrong. Can a "worker" or "slave" class be seen as an essential > phase or subsystem too? I believe yes. Slavery in ancient times was in my > opinion a precursor of employment. Proto-companies needed cheap employees > before employees or economies existed. The "class" of slaves served as > proto-employees, in ancient Egypt, ancient Greece and ancient Rome. A dream > for their proto-employer, a nightmare for them. I guess "Caste: The Origins > of Our Discontents" from Isabel Wilkerson which Nick mentioned makes a > similar point. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste:_The_Origins_of_Our_Discontents > > -J. > > > > Original message -------- > From: Sarbaji
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
Makes me think of Rand Paul. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, 5:54 PM Marcus Daniels wrote: > A public servant remarked to me that their boss mostly does things to > pacify unreasonable people. This in turn encourages more unreasonable > behavior. The agency of the unreasonable people is characterized by how > much disruption they can cause, not by the inherent value of the goals that > they have. The goals are just a temporary means by which to demonstrate > their agency and process their feelings of alienation. I suggest that > this neediness at some point becomes toxic and cannot be repaired. At a > company, those people get fired. > > > > *From:* Friam *On Behalf Of *David Eric Smith > *Sent:* Thursday, August 26, 2021 3:16 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > friam@redfish.com> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > > > > Those who seek cooperative or collaborative support, jointly generated, > from others, should explain themselves to all as contributing a part of the > joint effort, collaboration, and mutual responsibility. > > > > The same argument applies to not being exploitative in wage negotiations, > poisoning backyards that can’t efford to push it off, colonialism, etc. > > > > I still think that what one doesn’t know is secondary to the point, > though. This is all about holding a position that the society you live in > is illegitimate, and wanting to act out your animosity toward it or > contempt for it, as a kind of defiant expression of some kind of agency. > > > > Max Rose, I think it was, had some sort of good comment about this. We > have to break out of the death spiral of having this as the motivation if > we are to break out of the death spiral. > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > On Aug 27, 2021, at 4:22 AM, Prof David West wrote: > > > > > > Explain themselves to _? To you? For the purpose of ___? Securing > your approval? > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 1:13 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > They need to explain themselves, and it is entirely appropriate to make > their lives risky and inconvenient until they do. > > > > *From:* Friam *On Behalf Of *Prof David West > > *Sent:* Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:07 PM > > *To:* friam@redfish.com > > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > > > > > > Glen is very sensitive to potential misrepresentation/misinterpretation of > his words, as am I. I merely asked if Glen's sentences, which on their face > seem to equate anti-vax and stupid, should be interpreted that way. In a > sense I was trolling him because I know he would not make such a blanket > and absolute assertion. > > > > However, the entire tenor of the thread, and the public rhetoric regarding > people holding anti-vax positions seems, to me, to be grounded in exactly > this kind of assertion: "if *you* (a person) are anti-vax *you* are > stupid (and probably a Trumpista or at least a Republican). > > > > In my opinion this kind of assertion is wrong, harmful, and, if your goal > is to increase vaccination rates, entirely counter-productive. > > > > davew > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 10:55 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote: > > > I addressed the stupid people vs stupid acts. Dave makes that > > > conflation. I don't. > > > > > > But re: punishment - I also never claimed stupidity should be punished. > > > I claimed stupidity should be painful. As a person who inflicts pain on > > > myself daily, on purpose, it would be silly to identify pain with > > > punishment. Futher, many of us are affected by chronic pain, often of > > > unknown mechanism/origin. Sophistry about the problem of Evil > > > notwithstanding, chronic pain is not the universe punishing you. The > > > story of Job is a stupid story. > > > > > > We *could* talk about pain as a mechanism for aversive learning, > > > though. The chronic pain I suffer from has taught me how to (and that I > > > must) moderately meter out my pain in order to avoid greater amounts of > > > pain. Pain has taught me a great deal. It's not a punishment in the > > > slightest sense of that word. > > > > > > On 8/26/21 9:44 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and > "self-preservation". There is something incoherent about asserting that > stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
EricS - > This is all about holding a position that the society you live in is illegitimate, and wanting to act out your > animosity toward it or contempt for it, as a kind of defiant expression of some kind of agency. Well stated... I think this captures a lot of the degenerate behaviour of the disenfranchised (real and imaginedly so) in general, but as it has come home to roost as "whitelash" it is more painfully and evidently self-defeating. The clown-show that was the Jan 6 attempted insurrection really put a cartoonish face on it, albeit a dangerous one. The continued dribble of new arrests, of court proceedings, and the strange defenses/pleas coming out of that really reflect this self-defeated stylization. Same with the Congressional (and other) Trumpeteers continuing to step more and more on their own clown-shoelaces as they try to have it both/all ways. Goodbye Sydney Powell, goodbye Rudy Guiliani, ... who is next? > Max Rose, I think it was, had some sort of good comment about this. > We have to break out of the death spiral of having this as the > motivation if we are to break out of the death spiral. Nicely recursive. I think too often we have to bounce off of some (real or imagined) bottom to reverse that spiral... in these times I fear there is "no bottom", false or otherwise. -SteveS - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
A woman brings in her husband to an ER having a heart attack, and she shows the staff vaccinations record for both of them, versus a man that obviously has COVID and his wife says there was no vaccination, and they never would consider it. All things being equal if a choice is needed to take one first (because of lack of capacity), why should a nurse or doctor prioritize the person who makes it clear they have chosen to endanger the hospital workers? There are interviews in the news lately with such people, some of them now dead. I can dig them up if you want. Yes, I understand there are practicalities make this hard to make policy, but as a thought experiment, why give a shit about the latter? Given finite resources, some decisions about how to deploy staff have to be made. Do these resources go to the COVID wing or not? From: Friam On Behalf Of Prof David West Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:22 PM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side Explain themselves to _? To you? For the purpose of ___? Securing your approval? On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 1:13 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: They need to explain themselves, and it is entirely appropriate to make their lives risky and inconvenient until they do. From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of Prof David West Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:07 PM To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side Glen is very sensitive to potential misrepresentation/misinterpretation of his words, as am I. I merely asked if Glen's sentences, which on their face seem to equate anti-vax and stupid, should be interpreted that way. In a sense I was trolling him because I know he would not make such a blanket and absolute assertion. However, the entire tenor of the thread, and the public rhetoric regarding people holding anti-vax positions seems, to me, to be grounded in exactly this kind of assertion: "if you (a person) are anti-vax you are stupid (and probably a Trumpista or at least a Republican). In my opinion this kind of assertion is wrong, harmful, and, if your goal is to increase vaccination rates, entirely counter-productive. davew On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 10:55 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote: > I addressed the stupid people vs stupid acts. Dave makes that > conflation. I don't. > > But re: punishment - I also never claimed stupidity should be punished. > I claimed stupidity should be painful. As a person who inflicts pain on > myself daily, on purpose, it would be silly to identify pain with > punishment. Futher, many of us are affected by chronic pain, often of > unknown mechanism/origin. Sophistry about the problem of Evil > notwithstanding, chronic pain is not the universe punishing you. The > story of Job is a stupid story. > > We *could* talk about pain as a mechanism for aversive learning, > though. The chronic pain I suffer from has taught me how to (and that I > must) moderately meter out my pain in order to avoid greater amounts of > pain. Pain has taught me a great deal. It's not a punishment in the > slightest sense of that word. > > On 8/26/21 9:44 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and > > "self-preservation". There is something incoherent about asserting that > > stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient features of > > stupidity is an inability to learn from experience. > > > > Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts? > -- > ☤>$ uǝlƃ > > - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 > bit.ly/virtualfriam<http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam<http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> We could also deconflate "should" with "needs to be" in the sense that > the former is a social/moral judgement while the latter is intended to > be held a adaptive system feedback loop? > > If we consider "stupid" to be all things "maladaptive" then "punishing" > those behaviours helps to winnow the population (of instances or > instances of behaviours) down to those which are more adaptive. > > "stupidity needs to be punished" might be a tautology in this context? Or to follow Glen's disambiguation between "punishment" and "pain" , "stupidity is painful" by definition? I would like to pick the nit, however, that some presentations of stupidity seem to be "deliberate dullness" which might well be a reaction to "pain which cannot be avoided"? Perhaps what we see as "stupid behaviour" is just the result of driving (sub)systems past their own adaptivity. If we want them to evolve to a more adaptive state space, sometimes we need to back off and not drive so hard? Over-punishing parents and the kind of offspring they yield, come to mind. > >> Glen, >> >> It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and >> "self-preservation". There is something incoherent about asserting that >> stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient features of >> stupidity is an inability to learn from experience. >> >> Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts? >> >> N >> >> Nick Thompson >> thompnicks...@gmail.com >> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ >> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 11:53 AM >> To: friam@redfish.com >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side >> >> I suppose it all depends on what "anti-vax" means, eh? If you take >> "anti-vax" to mean a kind of nihilistic "who cares?", then no. If you take >> "anti-vax" to mean "the spike protein made by the body in response to the >> mRNA vaccines is toxic", then yes. If you take "anti-vax" to mean "the >> vaccines contain aborted fetal tissue and it would be immoral for me to >> inject that into my body", then yes. Etc. >> >> By "anti-vax", most of Us the Enlightened are referring *not* to clear >> thinking people who have a calculus for making such decisions. We're >> referring to group thinkers who get the majority of their "scientific >> information" from Facebook posts from their friends. >> >> A person who sincerely doubts ingesting the vaccines and bases that doubt on >> controversial (not fully falsified nonsense) evidence would not be >> "anti-vax" in my book. (I'm looking at Pieter! 8^D) >> >> If you base your analytical evaluation and conclusions on obvious stupidity, >> then yes, I'd call your conclusions and analysis stupid. And stupidity must >> be painful. But if you base your analytical evaluation and conclusions on >> the truly questionable rhetoric put forth by others, then no, I'd call it >> *skeptical*. And skepticism must be rewarded. >> >> I'm not anti-vax because, in general, I'm not anti-*, anti-anything. I'm not >> really even anti-stupidity. I do stupid stuff all the time, come to stupid >> conclusions all the time. That's mostly because I'm contrarian. But my >> stupidity is painful and my contrary nature ensures that it is painful. In >> the end, Marcus' rhetoric is right. Shun the anti-vax from institutions, >> where reasonable. E.g. I intend to attend a small concert in September as a >> birthday gift to both me and Renee'. However, entry at the door will require >> evidence of vax status *or* a PCR test result dated within the last 48 >> hours. And I think that's the right thing to do. If you're anti-vax, no King >> Buffalo for you! >> >> >> On 8/26/21 8:27 AM, Prof David West wrote: >>> Glen stated:/"Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful."/ >>> >>> Is it correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to stupidity in >>> all cases without exception? >>> >>> Such an interpretation would certainly be consistent with the prevailing >>> rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two groups: Them the stupid and Us >>> the enlightened. >>> >>> Am I, for example, stupid; giving no regard to the basis of my being >>> anti-vax, for me personally? &g
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
Explain themselves to _? To you? For the purpose of ___? Securing your approval? On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 1:13 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > They need to explain themselves, and it is entirely appropriate to make their > lives risky and inconvenient until they do. > > *From:* Friam *On Behalf Of *Prof David West > *Sent:* Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:07 PM > *To:* friam@redfish.com > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > > > Glen is very sensitive to potential misrepresentation/misinterpretation of > his words, as am I. I merely asked if Glen's sentences, which on their face > seem to equate anti-vax and stupid, should be interpreted that way. In a > sense I was trolling him because I know he would not make such a blanket and > absolute assertion. > > However, the entire tenor of the thread, and the public rhetoric regarding > people holding anti-vax positions seems, to me, to be grounded in exactly > this kind of assertion: "if _you_ (a person) are anti-vax _you_ are stupid > (and probably a Trumpista or at least a Republican). > > In my opinion this kind of assertion is wrong, harmful, and, if your goal is > to increase vaccination rates, entirely counter-productive. > > davew > > > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 10:55 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote: > > I addressed the stupid people vs stupid acts. Dave makes that > > conflation. I don't. > > > > But re: punishment - I also never claimed stupidity should be punished. > > I claimed stupidity should be painful. As a person who inflicts pain on > > myself daily, on purpose, it would be silly to identify pain with > > punishment. Futher, many of us are affected by chronic pain, often of > > unknown mechanism/origin. Sophistry about the problem of Evil > > notwithstanding, chronic pain is not the universe punishing you. The > > story of Job is a stupid story. > > > > We *could* talk about pain as a mechanism for aversive learning, > > though. The chronic pain I suffer from has taught me how to (and that I > > must) moderately meter out my pain in order to avoid greater amounts of > > pain. Pain has taught me a great deal. It's not a punishment in the > > slightest sense of that word. > > > > On 8/26/21 9:44 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote: > > > It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and > > > "self-preservation". There is something incoherent about asserting that > > > stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient features of > > > stupidity is an inability to learn from experience. > > > > > > Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts? > > -- > > ☤>$ uǝlƃ > > > > - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > > > - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
They need to explain themselves, and it is entirely appropriate to make their lives risky and inconvenient until they do. From: Friam On Behalf Of Prof David West Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:07 PM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side Glen is very sensitive to potential misrepresentation/misinterpretation of his words, as am I. I merely asked if Glen's sentences, which on their face seem to equate anti-vax and stupid, should be interpreted that way. In a sense I was trolling him because I know he would not make such a blanket and absolute assertion. However, the entire tenor of the thread, and the public rhetoric regarding people holding anti-vax positions seems, to me, to be grounded in exactly this kind of assertion: "if you (a person) are anti-vax you are stupid (and probably a Trumpista or at least a Republican). In my opinion this kind of assertion is wrong, harmful, and, if your goal is to increase vaccination rates, entirely counter-productive. davew On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 10:55 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote: > I addressed the stupid people vs stupid acts. Dave makes that > conflation. I don't. > > But re: punishment - I also never claimed stupidity should be punished. > I claimed stupidity should be painful. As a person who inflicts pain on > myself daily, on purpose, it would be silly to identify pain with > punishment. Futher, many of us are affected by chronic pain, often of > unknown mechanism/origin. Sophistry about the problem of Evil > notwithstanding, chronic pain is not the universe punishing you. The > story of Job is a stupid story. > > We *could* talk about pain as a mechanism for aversive learning, > though. The chronic pain I suffer from has taught me how to (and that I > must) moderately meter out my pain in order to avoid greater amounts of > pain. Pain has taught me a great deal. It's not a punishment in the > slightest sense of that word. > > On 8/26/21 9:44 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and > > "self-preservation". There is something incoherent about asserting that > > stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient features of > > stupidity is an inability to learn from experience. > > > > Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts? > -- > ☤>$ uǝlƃ > > - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 > bit.ly/virtualfriam<http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
Glen is very sensitive to potential misrepresentation/misinterpretation of his words, as am I. I merely asked if Glen's sentences, which on their face seem to equate anti-vax and stupid, should be interpreted that way. In a sense I was trolling him because I know he would not make such a blanket and absolute assertion. However, the entire tenor of the thread, and the public rhetoric regarding people holding anti-vax positions seems, to me, to be grounded in exactly this kind of assertion: "if _you_ (a person) are anti-vax _you_ are stupid (and probably a Trumpista or at least a Republican). In my opinion this kind of assertion is wrong, harmful, and, if your goal is to increase vaccination rates, entirely counter-productive. davew On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 10:55 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote: > I addressed the stupid people vs stupid acts. Dave makes that > conflation. I don't. > > But re: punishment - I also never claimed stupidity should be punished. > I claimed stupidity should be painful. As a person who inflicts pain on > myself daily, on purpose, it would be silly to identify pain with > punishment. Futher, many of us are affected by chronic pain, often of > unknown mechanism/origin. Sophistry about the problem of Evil > notwithstanding, chronic pain is not the universe punishing you. The > story of Job is a stupid story. > > We *could* talk about pain as a mechanism for aversive learning, > though. The chronic pain I suffer from has taught me how to (and that I > must) moderately meter out my pain in order to avoid greater amounts of > pain. Pain has taught me a great deal. It's not a punishment in the > slightest sense of that word. > > On 8/26/21 9:44 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote: > > It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and > > "self-preservation". There is something incoherent about asserting that > > stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient features of > > stupidity is an inability to learn from experience. > > > > Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts? > -- > ☤>$ uǝlƃ > > - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote: > ... then it's a reasonable heuristic to skip all the extra words and ball up > all their actions and thoughts into the person. I try not to do that. And > based on my ability to have calm, civilized discussions with people who yell > spittle in my face, I think I do OK at it. Which might be the main reason for anti-masker's spittle-laced diatribes against masking? It is harder to yell spittle into another's face when one or both are covered with masks (and better yet face-shields?). Spit on! - Steve - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
We could also deconflate "should" with "needs to be" in the sense that the former is a social/moral judgement while the latter is intended to be held a adaptive system feedback loop? If we consider "stupid" to be all things "maladaptive" then "punishing" those behaviours helps to winnow the population (of instances or instances of behaviours) down to those which are more adaptive. "stupidity needs to be punished" might be a tautology in this context? > Glen, > > It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and > "self-preservation". There is something incoherent about asserting that > stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient features of > stupidity is an inability to learn from experience. > > Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts? > > N > > Nick Thompson > thompnicks...@gmail.com > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > > -Original Message----- > From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 11:53 AM > To: friam@redfish.com > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > > I suppose it all depends on what "anti-vax" means, eh? If you take "anti-vax" > to mean a kind of nihilistic "who cares?", then no. If you take "anti-vax" to > mean "the spike protein made by the body in response to the mRNA vaccines is > toxic", then yes. If you take "anti-vax" to mean "the vaccines contain > aborted fetal tissue and it would be immoral for me to inject that into my > body", then yes. Etc. > > By "anti-vax", most of Us the Enlightened are referring *not* to clear > thinking people who have a calculus for making such decisions. We're > referring to group thinkers who get the majority of their "scientific > information" from Facebook posts from their friends. > > A person who sincerely doubts ingesting the vaccines and bases that doubt on > controversial (not fully falsified nonsense) evidence would not be "anti-vax" > in my book. (I'm looking at Pieter! 8^D) > > If you base your analytical evaluation and conclusions on obvious stupidity, > then yes, I'd call your conclusions and analysis stupid. And stupidity must > be painful. But if you base your analytical evaluation and conclusions on the > truly questionable rhetoric put forth by others, then no, I'd call it > *skeptical*. And skepticism must be rewarded. > > I'm not anti-vax because, in general, I'm not anti-*, anti-anything. I'm not > really even anti-stupidity. I do stupid stuff all the time, come to stupid > conclusions all the time. That's mostly because I'm contrarian. But my > stupidity is painful and my contrary nature ensures that it is painful. In > the end, Marcus' rhetoric is right. Shun the anti-vax from institutions, > where reasonable. E.g. I intend to attend a small concert in September as a > birthday gift to both me and Renee'. However, entry at the door will require > evidence of vax status *or* a PCR test result dated within the last 48 hours. > And I think that's the right thing to do. If you're anti-vax, no King Buffalo > for you! > > > On 8/26/21 8:27 AM, Prof David West wrote: >> Glen stated:/"Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful."/ >> >> Is it correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to stupidity in >> all cases without exception? >> >> Such an interpretation would certainly be consistent with the prevailing >> rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two groups: Them the stupid and Us >> the enlightened. >> >> Am I, for example, stupid; giving no regard to the basis of my being >> anti-vax, for me personally? >> >> [BTW, my analytical evaluation and conclusions did not stop me from >> getting vaccinated despite my antipathy. But my doing so was simply a >> matter of coercion.] >> >> davew >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 8:15 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote: >>> Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient >>> or PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test >>> results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful. >>> >>> But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness. >>> >>> On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>> They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have >>>> sufficient capacity. Through a triage process they can prioritize. It >>>> must happen already, even if it isn't legal. Oh, the local dru
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
In the spirit of multiple frequencies/scales or qualitative dimensions/modes of aggregation: What about the concern that habituating (and/or coercing) the entire population of first-world (and much of third world) countries to accepting (eagerly?) something which could credibly be as nefarious as *another* pandemic or maybe a CRISPR-Cas9 edit? I'm not saying that *I* am acutely worried about this, but rather that such a worry is not as absurd as it might sound. Having hosted a conspiracy nut in my house for over a year, I'm at least sensitive to the logic. I don't, for example, worry that the flouride/chlorine/bromine treatments used in "city water" is part of a nefarious plot for mass mind control by the illuminati. But I *do* acknowledge that if such a plot were afoot (by anyone) the drinking water supply might be a good vector to spread such a thing very rapidly (though these days, the bottled-water supply might penetrate deeper/faster). So am I worried that *this* vaccine round is sterilizing/mind-controlling/RFID-injecting people? No. But am I worried that becoming habituated to one (or many) required vaccine treatments on an annual (or seasonal?) opens a door to something potentially *very* nefarious? Yes. How do we mitigate that? If you want to refuse this vaccine, great, just accept masking/isolation in it's place and don't be surprised if when you have a car accident that there are a finite number of beds in the ER/ICU set aside for unvaccinated people which will likely be overwhelmed with people coming in with acute COVID symptoms (since everyone else is either not contracting COVID or not having severe symptoms)... Can we acknowledge that "just because we are paranoid, that doesn't mean nobody might be out to get us"? - Steve On 8/26/21 10:18 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > Anti-vax needs a justification that can survive peer review. Because > Tucker said so and I have a right to my liberty, etc. is not a > justification. One might be a concern about inflammation. The > vaccine will stimulate IGG-M production which could exacerbate some > auto-immune conditions, and I have that auto-immune condition. > > > > *From:* Friam *On Behalf Of *Prof David West > *Sent:* Thursday, August 26, 2021 8:28 AM > *To:* friam@redfish.com > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > > > > > > Glen stated:/"Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful."/ > > > > Is it correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to > stupidity in all cases without exception? > > > > Such an interpretation would certainly be consistent with the > prevailing rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two groups: Them > the stupid and Us the enlightened. > > > > Am I, for example, stupid; giving no regard to the basis of my being > anti-vax, for me personally? > > > > [BTW, my analytical evaluation and conclusions did not stop me from > getting vaccinated despite my antipathy. But my doing so was simply a > matter of coercion.] > > > > davew > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 8:15 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote: > > > Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient > > > or PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test > > > results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful. > > > > > > But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness. > > > > > > On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > > > They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd > have sufficient capacity. Through a triage process they can > prioritize. It must happen already, even if it isn't legal. Oh, the > local drug addict is here again. That guy is probably not #1 for the > attention of the doctors. If enough big organizations like hospitals, > grocery stores, etc. simply refuse to patronize people without > evidence of vaccination, there doesn't need to be a mandate. And it > isn't just ERs, there are people getting allergy shots, getting > physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc. No shirt, no shoes, no > vaccination, no service. > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > > From: Friam <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM > > > > To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> > > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > > > > > > > > That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is > largely irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in > unconscious with a gunshot wound, it's difficult to
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
I addressed the stupid people vs stupid acts. Dave makes that conflation. I don't. But re: punishment - I also never claimed stupidity should be punished. I claimed stupidity should be painful. As a person who inflicts pain on myself daily, on purpose, it would be silly to identify pain with punishment. Futher, many of us are affected by chronic pain, often of unknown mechanism/origin. Sophistry about the problem of Evil notwithstanding, chronic pain is not the universe punishing you. The story of Job is a stupid story. We *could* talk about pain as a mechanism for aversive learning, though. The chronic pain I suffer from has taught me how to (and that I must) moderately meter out my pain in order to avoid greater amounts of pain. Pain has taught me a great deal. It's not a punishment in the slightest sense of that word. On 8/26/21 9:44 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote: > It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and > "self-preservation". There is something incoherent about asserting that > stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient features of > stupidity is an inability to learn from experience. > > Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts? -- ☤>$ uǝlƃ - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
Glen, I bow to your greater experience. Anybody who can hang into a conversation about vaccines while being spittled at is made of sturner stuff than I. If nothing else, the irony would kill me. Nick Nick Thompson thompnicks...@gmail.com https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:50 PM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side I'm fairly certain *I* never called any person stupid. I don't even think anti-vaxxers are stupid people just because the thoughts they're thinking, and their lack of action is stupid. That Dave conflates calling an anti-vaxer stupid vs. calling an anti-vaxxer's anti-vax stance stupid, indicates something about Dave, not about me. So, to be clear, being anti-vax is stupid. But the anti-vaxxer that is anti-vax is not (necessarily) stupid. If, however, a given person's actions-thoughts are overwhelmingly stupid, like 90% of their actions and thoughts are stupid actions and stupid thoughts, then it's a reasonable heuristic to skip all the extra words and ball up all their actions and thoughts into the person. I try not to do that. And based on my ability to have calm, civilized discussions with people who yell spittle in my face, I think I do OK at it. On 8/26/21 9:38 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote: > I agree, Dave, that calling other people stupid is stupid, even though it is > deeply satisfying and great for organizing lynch parties. > > > > Nick > > > > Nick Thompson > > thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> > > > > *From:* Friam *On Behalf Of *Prof David > West > *Sent:* Thursday, August 26, 2021 11:28 AM > *To:* friam@redfish.com > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > > > > > > Glen stated:/"Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful."/ > > > > Is it correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to stupidity in > all cases without exception? > > > > Such an interpretation would certainly be consistent with the prevailing > rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two groups: Them the stupid and Us > the enlightened. > > > > Am I, for example, stupid; giving no regard to the basis of my being > anti-vax, for me personally? > > > > [BTW, my analytical evaluation and conclusions did not stop me from > getting vaccinated despite my antipathy. But my doing so was simply a > matter of coercion.] > > > > davew > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 8:15 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote: > >> Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient > >> or PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test > >> results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful. > >> > >> But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness. > >> > >> On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > >> > They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have >> > sufficient capacity. Through a triage process they can prioritize. It >> > must happen already, even if it isn't legal. Oh, the local drug addict is >> > here again. That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors. >> > If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply >> > refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't >> > need to be a mandate. And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting >> > allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc. No >> > shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service. > >> > > >> > -Original Message- > >> > From: Friam > > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM > >> > To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> > >> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > >> > > >> > That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely >> > irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a >> > gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not. > >> > > >> > Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in >> > the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you >> > suggest would require major legislative effort an
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
I'm fairly certain *I* never called any person stupid. I don't even think anti-vaxxers are stupid people just because the thoughts they're thinking, and their lack of action is stupid. That Dave conflates calling an anti-vaxer stupid vs. calling an anti-vaxxer's anti-vax stance stupid, indicates something about Dave, not about me. So, to be clear, being anti-vax is stupid. But the anti-vaxxer that is anti-vax is not (necessarily) stupid. If, however, a given person's actions-thoughts are overwhelmingly stupid, like 90% of their actions and thoughts are stupid actions and stupid thoughts, then it's a reasonable heuristic to skip all the extra words and ball up all their actions and thoughts into the person. I try not to do that. And based on my ability to have calm, civilized discussions with people who yell spittle in my face, I think I do OK at it. On 8/26/21 9:38 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote: > I agree, Dave, that calling other people stupid is stupid, even though it is > deeply satisfying and great for organizing lynch parties. > > > > Nick > > > > Nick Thompson > > thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> > > > > *From:* Friam *On Behalf Of *Prof David West > *Sent:* Thursday, August 26, 2021 11:28 AM > *To:* friam@redfish.com > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > > > > > > Glen stated:/"Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful."/ > > > > Is it correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to stupidity in > all cases without exception? > > > > Such an interpretation would certainly be consistent with the prevailing > rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two groups: Them the stupid and Us > the enlightened. > > > > Am I, for example, stupid; giving no regard to the basis of my being > anti-vax, for me personally? > > > > [BTW, my analytical evaluation and conclusions did not stop me from getting > vaccinated despite my antipathy. But my doing so was simply a matter of > coercion.] > > > > davew > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 8:15 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote: > >> Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient > >> or PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test > >> results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful. > >> > >> But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness. > >> > >> On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > >> > They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have >> > sufficient capacity. Through a triage process they can prioritize. It >> > must happen already, even if it isn't legal. Oh, the local drug addict is >> > here again. That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors. >> > If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply >> > refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't >> > need to be a mandate. And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting >> > allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc. No >> > shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service. > >> > > >> > -Original Message- > >> > From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> >> > On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM > >> > To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> > >> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > >> > > >> > That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely >> > irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a >> > gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not. > >> > > >> > Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in >> > the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you >> > suggest would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect >> > the laws that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime >> > soon. > >> > > >> > Taking a look at this site: >> > https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours >> > >> > <https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
Glen, It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and "self-preservation". There is something incoherent about asserting that stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient features of stupidity is an inability to learn from experience. Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts? N Nick Thompson thompnicks...@gmail.com https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 11:53 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side I suppose it all depends on what "anti-vax" means, eh? If you take "anti-vax" to mean a kind of nihilistic "who cares?", then no. If you take "anti-vax" to mean "the spike protein made by the body in response to the mRNA vaccines is toxic", then yes. If you take "anti-vax" to mean "the vaccines contain aborted fetal tissue and it would be immoral for me to inject that into my body", then yes. Etc. By "anti-vax", most of Us the Enlightened are referring *not* to clear thinking people who have a calculus for making such decisions. We're referring to group thinkers who get the majority of their "scientific information" from Facebook posts from their friends. A person who sincerely doubts ingesting the vaccines and bases that doubt on controversial (not fully falsified nonsense) evidence would not be "anti-vax" in my book. (I'm looking at Pieter! 8^D) If you base your analytical evaluation and conclusions on obvious stupidity, then yes, I'd call your conclusions and analysis stupid. And stupidity must be painful. But if you base your analytical evaluation and conclusions on the truly questionable rhetoric put forth by others, then no, I'd call it *skeptical*. And skepticism must be rewarded. I'm not anti-vax because, in general, I'm not anti-*, anti-anything. I'm not really even anti-stupidity. I do stupid stuff all the time, come to stupid conclusions all the time. That's mostly because I'm contrarian. But my stupidity is painful and my contrary nature ensures that it is painful. In the end, Marcus' rhetoric is right. Shun the anti-vax from institutions, where reasonable. E.g. I intend to attend a small concert in September as a birthday gift to both me and Renee'. However, entry at the door will require evidence of vax status *or* a PCR test result dated within the last 48 hours. And I think that's the right thing to do. If you're anti-vax, no King Buffalo for you! On 8/26/21 8:27 AM, Prof David West wrote: > > Glen stated:/"Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful."/ > > Is it correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to stupidity in > all cases without exception? > > Such an interpretation would certainly be consistent with the prevailing > rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two groups: Them the stupid and Us > the enlightened. > > Am I, for example, stupid; giving no regard to the basis of my being > anti-vax, for me personally? > > [BTW, my analytical evaluation and conclusions did not stop me from > getting vaccinated despite my antipathy. But my doing so was simply a > matter of coercion.] > > davew > > > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 8:15 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote: >> Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient >> or PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test >> results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful. >> >> But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness. >> >> On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> > They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have >> > sufficient capacity. Through a triage process they can prioritize. It >> > must happen already, even if it isn't legal. Oh, the local drug addict is >> > here again. That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors. >> > If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply >> > refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't >> > need to be a mandate. And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting >> > allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc. No >> > shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service. >> > >> > -Original Message- >> > From: Friam > > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM >> > To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> >> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side >> > >> > That's j
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
I agree, Dave, that calling other people stupid is stupid, even though it is deeply satisfying and great for organizing lynch parties. Nick Nick Thompson <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> thompnicks...@gmail.com <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam On Behalf Of Prof David West Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 11:28 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side Glen stated: "Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful." Is it correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to stupidity in all cases without exception? Such an interpretation would certainly be consistent with the prevailing rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two groups: Them the stupid and Us the enlightened. Am I, for example, stupid; giving no regard to the basis of my being anti-vax, for me personally? [BTW, my analytical evaluation and conclusions did not stop me from getting vaccinated despite my antipathy. But my doing so was simply a matter of coercion.] davew On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 8:15 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote: > Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient > or PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test > results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful. > > But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness. > > On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have > > sufficient capacity. Through a triage process they can prioritize. It > > must happen already, even if it isn't legal. Oh, the local drug addict is > > here again. That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors. > > If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply > > refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't > > need to be a mandate. And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting > > allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc. No > > shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service. > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > > > On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM > > To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > > > > That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely > > irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a > > gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not. > > > > Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in > > the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you suggest > > would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect the laws > > that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon. > > > > Taking a look at this site: > > https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours > > it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The > > actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid > > patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem. > > > > > > On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > >> Will you consent to a vaccine? > >> > >> Yes: You get treatment for your non-COVID condition. No: Get lost. > >> > >> -Original Message- > >> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > >> > On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > >> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM > >> To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> > >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > >> > >> Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. > >> (Last I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm > >> sure it's location dependent.) They're regular people with regular > >> problems, many of whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to > >> lockdowns. We did a little too much "just in time" logistical planning > >> with our hospitals and this fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our > >> buffer wasn't high enough. > >> > >> The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and > >> take care of both covid patients and regular people. > >> > >> &g
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
Anti-vax needs a justification that can survive peer review. Because Tucker said so and I have a right to my liberty, etc. is not a justification.One might be a concern about inflammation.The vaccine will stimulate IGG-M production which could exacerbate some auto-immune conditions, and I have that auto-immune condition. From: Friam On Behalf Of Prof David West Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 8:28 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side Glen stated: "Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful." Is it correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to stupidity in all cases without exception? Such an interpretation would certainly be consistent with the prevailing rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two groups: Them the stupid and Us the enlightened. Am I, for example, stupid; giving no regard to the basis of my being anti-vax, for me personally? [BTW, my analytical evaluation and conclusions did not stop me from getting vaccinated despite my antipathy. But my doing so was simply a matter of coercion.] davew On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 8:15 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote: > Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient > or PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test > results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful. > > But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness. > > On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have > > sufficient capacity. Through a triage process they can prioritize. It > > must happen already, even if it isn't legal. Oh, the local drug addict is > > here again. That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors. > > If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply > > refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't > > need to be a mandate. And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting > > allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc. No > > shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service. > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> > > On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM > > To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > > > > That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely > > irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a > > gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not. > > > > Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in > > the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you suggest > > would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect the laws > > that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon. > > > > Taking a look at this site: > > https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours > > it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The > > actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid > > patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem. > > > > > > On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > >> Will you consent to a vaccine? > >> > >> Yes: You get treatment for your non-COVID condition. No: Get lost. > >> > >> -Original Message- > >> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> > >> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > >> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM > >> To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> > >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > >> > >> Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. > >> (Last I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm > >> sure it's location dependent.) They're regular people with regular > >> problems, many of whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to > >> lockdowns. We did a little too much "just in time" logistical planning > >> with our hospitals and this fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our > >> buffer wasn't high enough. > >> > >> The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and > >> take care of both covid patients and regular people. > >> > >> > >> On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > >>> Why should
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
I am reading "The Origins of Political Order" from Francis Fukuyama at the moment and one thing I noticed is that the 4 classes from India's caste system actually represent the division into religion (Brahmins, priestly class), military (Kshatriyas, warrior class), economy (Vaishyas, merchant class) and others (Shudras, manual workers)https://www.dw.com/en/indias-caste-system-weakened-but-still-influential/a-39718124The Greek philosopher Empedocles argued the world is made of four elements - fire, earth, air and water. There are no such elements, but there are indeed four phases of matter - plasma, solid, gas and liquid.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_(matter)This means that the ancient Greeks and the ancient Indians were not completely wrong. Can a "worker" or "slave" class be seen as an essential phase or subsystem too? I believe yes. Slavery in ancient times was in my opinion a precursor of employment. Proto-companies needed cheap employees before employees or economies existed. The "class" of slaves served as proto-employees, in ancient Egypt, ancient Greece and ancient Rome. A dream for their proto-employer, a nightmare for them. I guess "Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents" from Isabel Wilkerson which Nick mentioned makes a similar point.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste:_The_Origins_of_Our_Discontents-J. Original message From: Sarbajit Roy Date: 8/26/21 04:43 (GMT+01:00) To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side HiI would like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally distasteful) perspective on this from India.India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19 infections and deaths after the USA.However, within India, there is a small class of people, like me, called Adi Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste, who don't wear masks or take clinically unproven or untested vaccinations, mainly because we continually practice an ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since Brahmins are traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, we have known about virii, fomites, their modes of transmission, and how they cause infection and disease for centuries and we knew this empirically even before microscopes were invented. The rules and concepts of untouchability are drilled into Brahmin children from infancy, and we practice it scrupulously even if it is banned by law in India. And it's not as if we dont believe in Western medicine systems or science, I was drilled by my grandfather who was the Director General of India's Armed Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of India), to the extent that even the metal cutlery at his dining table was "autoclaved" before we used them.The people who are contracting and dying of COVID in India are the ones who are fated to do so because of their own foolishness and ignorance, and also because India's government wanted them to die. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563Sarbajit RoyNew Delhi, IndiaOn Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore wrote:Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the science and tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is amazingly cool what people can do what we decide to do so.you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos from people that made the vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a translation on what it meant to map the genetics. RNA. mRNA. And when I learned how safe the vaccine was. Then I decided I couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds like that's the opposite what some people are doing. It sounds like the hear: this was made using new medical technology, that hasn't neneded to be tested outside of labs until now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt. Which is a shame.On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels wrote:They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have sufficient capacity. Through a triage process they can prioritize. It must happen already, even if it isn't legal. Oh, the local drug addict is here again. That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors. If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't need to be a mandate. And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc. No shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service. -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not.
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
I suppose it all depends on what "anti-vax" means, eh? If you take "anti-vax" to mean a kind of nihilistic "who cares?", then no. If you take "anti-vax" to mean "the spike protein made by the body in response to the mRNA vaccines is toxic", then yes. If you take "anti-vax" to mean "the vaccines contain aborted fetal tissue and it would be immoral for me to inject that into my body", then yes. Etc. By "anti-vax", most of Us the Enlightened are referring *not* to clear thinking people who have a calculus for making such decisions. We're referring to group thinkers who get the majority of their "scientific information" from Facebook posts from their friends. A person who sincerely doubts ingesting the vaccines and bases that doubt on controversial (not fully falsified nonsense) evidence would not be "anti-vax" in my book. (I'm looking at Pieter! 8^D) If you base your analytical evaluation and conclusions on obvious stupidity, then yes, I'd call your conclusions and analysis stupid. And stupidity must be painful. But if you base your analytical evaluation and conclusions on the truly questionable rhetoric put forth by others, then no, I'd call it *skeptical*. And skepticism must be rewarded. I'm not anti-vax because, in general, I'm not anti-*, anti-anything. I'm not really even anti-stupidity. I do stupid stuff all the time, come to stupid conclusions all the time. That's mostly because I'm contrarian. But my stupidity is painful and my contrary nature ensures that it is painful. In the end, Marcus' rhetoric is right. Shun the anti-vax from institutions, where reasonable. E.g. I intend to attend a small concert in September as a birthday gift to both me and Renee'. However, entry at the door will require evidence of vax status *or* a PCR test result dated within the last 48 hours. And I think that's the right thing to do. If you're anti-vax, no King Buffalo for you! On 8/26/21 8:27 AM, Prof David West wrote: > > Glen stated:/"Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful."/ > > Is it correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to stupidity in > all cases without exception? > > Such an interpretation would certainly be consistent with the prevailing > rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two groups: Them the stupid and Us > the enlightened. > > Am I, for example, stupid; giving no regard to the basis of my being > anti-vax, for me personally? > > [BTW, my analytical evaluation and conclusions did not stop me from getting > vaccinated despite my antipathy. But my doing so was simply a matter of > coercion.] > > davew > > > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 8:15 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote: >> Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient >> or PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test >> results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful. >> >> But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness. >> >> On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> > They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have >> > sufficient capacity. Through a triage process they can prioritize. It >> > must happen already, even if it isn't legal. Oh, the local drug addict is >> > here again. That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors. >> > If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply >> > refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't >> > need to be a mandate. And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting >> > allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc. No >> > shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service. >> > >> > -Original Message- >> > From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> >> > On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM >> > To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> >> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side >> > >> > That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely >> > irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a >> > gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not. >> > >> > Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in >> > the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you >> > suggest would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect >> > the laws that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime >> > soon
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
Glen stated:* "Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful."* Is it correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to stupidity in all cases without exception? Such an interpretation would certainly be consistent with the prevailing rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two groups: Them the stupid and Us the enlightened. Am I, for example, stupid; giving no regard to the basis of my being anti-vax, for me personally? [BTW, my analytical evaluation and conclusions did not stop me from getting vaccinated despite my antipathy. But my doing so was simply a matter of coercion.] davew On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 8:15 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote: > Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient > or PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test > results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful. > > But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness. > > On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have > > sufficient capacity. Through a triage process they can prioritize. It > > must happen already, even if it isn't legal. Oh, the local drug addict is > > here again. That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors. > > If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply > > refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't > > need to be a mandate. And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting > > allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc. No > > shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service. > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM > > To: friam@redfish.com > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > > > > That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely > > irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a > > gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not. > > > > Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in > > the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you suggest > > would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect the laws > > that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon. > > > > Taking a look at this site: > > https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours > > it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The > > actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid > > patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem. > > > > > > On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > >> Will you consent to a vaccine? > >> > >> Yes: You get treatment for your non-COVID condition. No: Get lost. > >> > >> -Original Message- > >> From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > >> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM > >> To: friam@redfish.com > >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > >> > >> Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. > >> (Last I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm > >> sure it's location dependent.) They're regular people with regular > >> problems, many of whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to > >> lockdowns. We did a little too much "just in time" logistical planning > >> with our hospitals and this fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our > >> buffer wasn't high enough. > >> > >> The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and > >> take care of both covid patients and regular people. > >> > >> > >> On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > >>> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals? Just don't let > >>> them in. > >>> > >>> -Original Message- > >>> From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM > >>> To: friam@redfish.com > >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > >>> > >>> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, > >>> everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us > >>> or who's against us, then they're much less willing
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
Sarbajit, Are you familiar with CASTE <https://www.amazon.com/Caste-Origins-Discontents-Isabel-Wilkerson/dp/0593230256> ? The book, not the institution. No particular reason, except that if you were, it would provide us with a joint context. I am thinking that the closest equivalent to “untouchable” in our current American lingo is “essential.” I agree with you that the conversation is unpleasant, but disagree that it is avoidable. Is it your view that castes are the inevitable consequence of human association and that we should accept our privilege with grace and gratitude? Or, …..? Thank you for opening this door a crack. Nick Nick Thompson <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> thompnicks...@gmail.com <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam On Behalf Of Sarbajit Roy Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:19 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side Nick, it would be politically insensitive / incorrect for me to discuss America's blacks in the context of, say, white plantation owners, "field hands" and "house n**s" (not sure if I can use this word online nowadays) which parallel India's untouchables or Japan's Burakumin /Eta societal structures. Was it coincidence that the USA's most deadly COVID hotspots were unhygienic meat "packing" factories which employ mostly lower income blacks / browns who were compelled to either work or lose their meagre medical benefits ? Sarbajit On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 9:04 AM mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > wrote: Sarbajit, I am both fascinated and baffled by your note, and hope you will say more. I am in the thrall of a book entitled CASTE which makes a parallel between the untouchables and American blacks. So for you to associate high class with untouchability is disorienting. I gather that the notion of Untouchables as a low caste includes a notion of Non-touchers as a high class? I suppose it must, but I had never really thought about that. Nick Nick Thompson <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> thompnicks...@gmail.com <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Sarbajit Roy Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:41 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side Hi I would like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally distasteful) perspective on this from India. India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19 infections and deaths after the USA. However, within India, there is a small class of people, like me, called Adi Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste, who don't wear masks or take clinically unproven or untested vaccinations, mainly because we continually practice an ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since Brahmins are traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, we have known about virii, fomites, their modes of transmission, and how they cause infection and disease for centuries and we knew this empirically even before microscopes were invented. The rules and concepts of untouchability are drilled into Brahmin children from infancy, and we practice it scrupulously even if it is banned by law in India. And it's not as if we dont believe in Western medicine systems or science, I was drilled by my grandfather who was the Director General of India's Armed Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of India), to the extent that even the metal cutlery at his dining table was "autoclaved" before we used them. The people who are contracting and dying of COVID in India are the ones who are fated to do so because of their own foolishness and ignorance, and also because India's government wanted them to die. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563 Sarbajit Roy New Delhi, India On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com> > wrote: Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the science and tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is amazingly cool what people can do what we decide to do so. you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos from people that made the vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a translation on what it meant to map the genetics. RNA. mRNA. And when I learned how safe the vaccine was. Then I decided I couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds like that's the opposite what some people are doing. It sounds like the hear: this was made using new medical technology, that hasn't neneded to be tested outside of labs until now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt. Which is a shame. On Wed, Au
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
dia > > > > > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore > mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com>> > wrote: > > Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. > Personally I think the science and tech around > Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is > amazingly cool what people can do what we decide to do so. > you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos > from people that made the vaccines. LOL I did need to > try to ask for a translation on what it meant to map > the genetics. RNA. mRNA. And when I learned how safe > the vaccine was. Then I decided I couldn't get in line > fast enough. It sounds like that's the opposite what > some people are doing. It sounds like the hear: this > was made using new medical technology, that hasn't > neneded to be tested outside of labs until now. So > they basically heard Fear And Doubt. Which is a shame. > > > > On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels > mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> > wrote: > > They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient > capacity, or they'd have sufficient capacity. > Through a triage process they can prioritize. > It must happen already, even if it isn't legal. > Oh, the local drug addict is here again. That guy > is probably not #1 for the attention of the > doctors. If enough big organizations like > hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply refuse to > patronize people without evidence of vaccination, > there doesn't need to be a mandate. And it isn't > just ERs, there are people getting allergy shots, > getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, > etc. No shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service. > > -Original Message- > From: Friam <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of > u?l? ?>$ > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM > To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > > That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the > ER, the vaccine is largely irrelevant. Plus, when > some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a > gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's > been vaccinated or not. > > Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate > to treat whoever walks in the door, even if they > don't have insurance. To make the change you > suggest would require major legislative effort > and, perhaps, re-architect the laws that govern > public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime > soon. > > Taking a look at this site: > > https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours > > <https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours> > it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually > lower than I thought. The actual problem is > insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in > covid patients. The covid patients are simply > demonstrating the problem. > > > On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > Will you consent to a vaccine? > > > > Yes: You get treatment for your non-COVID > condition. No: Get lost. > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Friam <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of > u?l? ?>$ > > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM > > To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
;> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 at 04:42, Sarbajit Roy wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi >>>>> >>>>> I would like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally distasteful) >>>>> perspective on this from India. >>>>> >>>>> India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19 infections >>>>> and deaths after the USA. >>>>> >>>>> However, within India, there is a small class of people, like me, >>>>> called Adi Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste, who don't wear masks or take >>>>> clinically unproven or untested vaccinations, mainly because we >>>>> continually >>>>> practice an ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since >>>>> Brahmins are traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, >>>>> we >>>>> have known about virii, fomites, their modes of transmission, and how they >>>>> cause infection and disease for centuries and we knew this empirically >>>>> even >>>>> before microscopes were invented. >>>>> >>>>> The rules and concepts of untouchability are drilled into Brahmin >>>>> children from infancy, and we practice it scrupulously even if it is >>>>> banned >>>>> by law in India. And it's not as if we dont believe in Western medicine >>>>> systems or science, I was drilled by my grandfather who was the Director >>>>> General of India's Armed Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of India), to the >>>>> extent that even the metal cutlery at his dining table was "autoclaved" >>>>> before we used them. >>>>> >>>>> The people who are contracting and dying of COVID in India are the >>>>> ones who are fated to do so because of their own foolishness and >>>>> ignorance, >>>>> and also because India's government wanted them to die. >>>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563 >>>>> >>>>> Sarbajit Roy >>>>> New Delhi, India >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore < >>>>> gil.densm...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the >>>>>> science and tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is >>>>>> amazingly cool what people can do what we decide to do so. >>>>>> you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos from people that >>>>>> made the vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a translation on what >>>>>> it meant to map the genetics. RNA. mRNA. And when I learned how safe the >>>>>> vaccine was. Then I decided I couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds >>>>>> like that's the opposite what some people are doing. It sounds like the >>>>>> hear: this was made using new medical technology, that hasn't neneded to >>>>>> be >>>>>> tested outside of labs until now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt. >>>>>> Which is a shame. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd >>>>>>> have sufficient capacity. Through a triage process they can >>>>>>> prioritize. >>>>>>> It must happen already, even if it isn't legal. Oh, the local drug >>>>>>> addict >>>>>>> is here again. That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the >>>>>>> doctors. If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, >>>>>>> etc. >>>>>>> simply refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there >>>>>>> doesn't need to be a mandate. And it isn't just ERs, there are people >>>>>>> getting allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, >>>>>>> etc. >>>>>>> No shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service. >>>>>>> >>>>&
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient or PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful. But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness. On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have > sufficient capacity. Through a triage process they can prioritize. It > must happen already, even if it isn't legal. Oh, the local drug addict is > here again. That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors. > If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply > refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't > need to be a mandate. And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting > allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc. No shirt, > no shoes, no vaccination, no service. > > -Original Message- > From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM > To: friam@redfish.com > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > > That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely > irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a > gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not. > > Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in > the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you suggest > would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect the laws > that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon. > > Taking a look at this site: > https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours > it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The > actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid > patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem. > > > On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> Will you consent to a vaccine? >> >> Yes: You get treatment for your non-COVID condition. No: Get lost. >> >> -Original Message----- >> From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ >> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM >> To: friam@redfish.com >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side >> >> Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. >> (Last I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm sure >> it's location dependent.) They're regular people with regular problems, many >> of whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to lockdowns. We did a >> little too much "just in time" logistical planning with our hospitals and >> this fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our buffer wasn't high enough. >> >> The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and >> take care of both covid patients and regular people. >> >> >> On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals? Just don't let them >>> in. >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM >>> To: friam@redfish.com >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side >>> >>> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, >>> everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us >>> or who's against us, then they're much less willing to submit to such tests. >>> >>> You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they antifa are >>> rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the fascists dig in >>> and be more committed to protesting, which makes the antifa more committed, >>> ad infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists out there >>> protesting mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) But as a >>> result, they're anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably. >>> >>> Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our attention >>> on increasing the capacities of hospitals rather than brow beating the >>> anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would climb steadily and the >>> reactionary tendencies of the anti-vaxers would abate. >>> >>> >>> On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>> These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests. -- ☤>$ uǝlƃ - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
d Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of India), to the extent that even the metal cutlery at his dining table was "autoclaved" before we used them. The people who are contracting and dying of COVID in India are the ones who are fated to do so because of their own foolishness and ignorance, and also because India's government wanted them to die. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563 Sarbajit Roy New Delhi, India On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com>> wrote: Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the science and tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is amazingly cool what people can do what we decide to do so. you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos from people that made the vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a translation on what it meant to map the genetics. RNA. mRNA. And when I learned how safe the vaccine was. Then I decided I couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds like that's the opposite what some people are doing. It sounds like the hear: this was made using new medical technology, that hasn't neneded to be tested outside of labs until now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt. Which is a shame. On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote: They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have sufficient capacity. Through a triage process they can prioritize. It must happen already, even if it isn't legal. Oh, the local drug addict is here again. That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors. If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't need to be a mandate. And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc. No shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service. -Original Message- From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not. Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you suggest would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect the laws that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon. Taking a look at this site: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem. On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Will you consent to a vaccine? > > Yes: You get treatment for your non-COVID condition. No: Get lost. > > -Original Message- > From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On > Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM > To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > > Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. (Last > I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm sure it's > location dependent.) They're regular people with regular problems, many of > whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to lockdowns. We did a little > too much "just in time" logistical planning with our hospitals and this > fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our buffer wasn't high enough. > > The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and take > care of both covid patients and regular people. > > > On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals? Just don't let them >> in. >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On >> Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ >> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM >> To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side >> >> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, >> everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us or >> who's against us, then they're much less willing to submit to such tests. >> >> You see this in spades w.r.t. t
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
s, mainly because we continually >>>> practice an ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since >>>> Brahmins are traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, we >>>> have known about virii, fomites, their modes of transmission, and how they >>>> cause infection and disease for centuries and we knew this empirically even >>>> before microscopes were invented. >>>> >>>> The rules and concepts of untouchability are drilled into Brahmin >>>> children from infancy, and we practice it scrupulously even if it is banned >>>> by law in India. And it's not as if we dont believe in Western medicine >>>> systems or science, I was drilled by my grandfather who was the Director >>>> General of India's Armed Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of India), to the >>>> extent that even the metal cutlery at his dining table was "autoclaved" >>>> before we used them. >>>> >>>> The people who are contracting and dying of COVID in India are the ones >>>> who are fated to do so because of their own foolishness and ignorance, and >>>> also because India's government wanted them to die. >>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563 >>>> >>>> Sarbajit Roy >>>> New Delhi, India >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore < >>>> gil.densm...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the >>>>> science and tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is >>>>> amazingly cool what people can do what we decide to do so. >>>>> you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos from people that >>>>> made the vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a translation on what >>>>> it meant to map the genetics. RNA. mRNA. And when I learned how safe the >>>>> vaccine was. Then I decided I couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds >>>>> like that's the opposite what some people are doing. It sounds like the >>>>> hear: this was made using new medical technology, that hasn't neneded to >>>>> be >>>>> tested outside of labs until now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt. >>>>> Which is a shame. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd >>>>>> have sufficient capacity. Through a triage process they can prioritize. >>>>>> It must happen already, even if it isn't legal. Oh, the local drug >>>>>> addict >>>>>> is here again. That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the >>>>>> doctors. If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, >>>>>> etc. >>>>>> simply refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there >>>>>> doesn't need to be a mandate. And it isn't just ERs, there are people >>>>>> getting allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, >>>>>> etc. >>>>>> No shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service. >>>>>> >>>>>> -Original Message- >>>>>> From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM >>>>>> To: friam@redfish.com >>>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side >>>>>> >>>>>> That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is >>>>>> largely irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious >>>>>> with a gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated >>>>>> or >>>>>> not. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever >>>>>> walks in the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change >>>>>> you suggest would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, >>>>>> re-architect the laws that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do >>>>>> that >>>>>> anytime soon. >>>>>> >>>>>> Taking
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
is banned >>> by law in India. And it's not as if we dont believe in Western medicine >>> systems or science, I was drilled by my grandfather who was the Director >>> General of India's Armed Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of India), to the >>> extent that even the metal cutlery at his dining table was "autoclaved" >>> before we used them. >>> >>> The people who are contracting and dying of COVID in India are the ones >>> who are fated to do so because of their own foolishness and ignorance, and >>> also because India's government wanted them to die. >>> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563 >>> >>> Sarbajit Roy >>> New Delhi, India >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the >>>> science and tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is >>>> amazingly cool what people can do what we decide to do so. >>>> you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos from people that >>>> made the vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a translation on what >>>> it meant to map the genetics. RNA. mRNA. And when I learned how safe the >>>> vaccine was. Then I decided I couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds >>>> like that's the opposite what some people are doing. It sounds like the >>>> hear: this was made using new medical technology, that hasn't neneded to be >>>> tested outside of labs until now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt. >>>> Which is a shame. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd >>>>> have sufficient capacity. Through a triage process they can prioritize. >>>>> It must happen already, even if it isn't legal. Oh, the local drug >>>>> addict >>>>> is here again. That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the >>>>> doctors. If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. >>>>> simply refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there >>>>> doesn't need to be a mandate. And it isn't just ERs, there are people >>>>> getting allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc. >>>>> No shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service. >>>>> >>>>> -Original Message- >>>>> From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM >>>>> To: friam@redfish.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side >>>>> >>>>> That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is >>>>> largely irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious >>>>> with a gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated >>>>> or >>>>> not. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever >>>>> walks in the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change >>>>> you suggest would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, >>>>> re-architect the laws that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do >>>>> that >>>>> anytime soon. >>>>> >>>>> Taking a look at this site: >>>>> https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours >>>>> it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. >>>>> The actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid >>>>> patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>>> > Will you consent to a vaccine? >>>>> > >>>>> > Yes: You get treatment for your non-COVID condition. No: Get >>>>> lost. >>>>> > >>>>> > -Original Message- >>>>> > From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ >>>>> > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM >>>>> > To: friam@redfish.com >>>&g
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
as. Then I decided I couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds >>> like that's the opposite what some people are doing. It sounds like the >>> hear: this was made using new medical technology, that hasn't neneded to be >>> tested outside of labs until now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt. >>> Which is a shame. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels >>> wrote: >>> >>>> They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have >>>> sufficient capacity. Through a triage process they can prioritize. It >>>> must happen already, even if it isn't legal. Oh, the local drug addict is >>>> here again. That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors. >>>> If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply >>>> refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't >>>> need to be a mandate. And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting >>>> allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc. No >>>> shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service. >>>> >>>> -Original Message- >>>> From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ >>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM >>>> To: friam@redfish.com >>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side >>>> >>>> That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is >>>> largely irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious >>>> with a gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or >>>> not. >>>> >>>> Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks >>>> in the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you >>>> suggest would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect >>>> the laws that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime >>>> soon. >>>> >>>> Taking a look at this site: >>>> https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours >>>> it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. >>>> The actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid >>>> patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>> > Will you consent to a vaccine? >>>> > >>>> > Yes: You get treatment for your non-COVID condition. No: Get >>>> lost. >>>> > >>>> > -Original Message- >>>> > From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ >>>> > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM >>>> > To: friam@redfish.com >>>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side >>>> > >>>> > Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid >>>> patients. (Last I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. >>>> But I'm sure it's location dependent.) They're regular people with regular >>>> problems, many of whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to >>>> lockdowns. We did a little too much "just in time" logistical planning with >>>> our hospitals and this fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our buffer >>>> wasn't high enough. >>>> > >>>> > The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, >>>> and take care of both covid patients and regular people. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>> >> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals? Just don't >>>> let them in. >>>> >> >>>> >> -Original Message- >>>> >> From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ >>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM >>>> >> To: friam@redfish.com >>>> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side >>>> >> >>>> >> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a >>>> normal, everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's >>>> with us or who's against us, then they're much less willing to submit to >>>> such tests. >>>> >> >
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
Sarbajit, When covid started I was very worried about India with it's high population density. But according to https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries the deaths/1M population in India is 313. In the USA, for example, the figure is 1950 deaths/1M population. Further, according to https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/ India seems to be dodging the delta variant, because the daily new cases has been dropping since May and seems to be staying low. My point is, India seems to be doing relatively less bad than many other countries. Then, there seems to be relatively high prophylactic and early treatment use of ivermectin in India. Refer to: https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/lucknow/uttar-pradesh-government-says-ivermectin-helped-to-keep-deaths-low-7311786/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/05/11/indian-state-will-offer-ivermectin-to-entire-adult-population---even-as-who-warns-against-its-use-as-covid-19-treatment/?sh=18acd8956d9f https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epidemiologic-analyses-on-covid19-and-ivermectin/ https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/columnists/indias-ivermectin-blackout---part-iii-the-lesson-of-kerala/article_ccecb97e-044e-11ec-9112-2b31ae87887a.html I'd like to have your views on this. Is there a possible causal link between the use of ivermectin and low new covid infections in India? Pieter On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 at 04:42, Sarbajit Roy wrote: > Hi > > I would like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally distasteful) > perspective on this from India. > > India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19 infections and > deaths after the USA. > > However, within India, there is a small class of people, like me, called > Adi Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste, who don't wear masks or take > clinically unproven or untested vaccinations, mainly because we continually > practice an ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since > Brahmins are traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, we > have known about virii, fomites, their modes of transmission, and how they > cause infection and disease for centuries and we knew this empirically even > before microscopes were invented. > > The rules and concepts of untouchability are drilled into Brahmin children > from infancy, and we practice it scrupulously even if it is banned by law > in India. And it's not as if we dont believe in Western medicine systems or > science, I was drilled by my grandfather who was the Director General of > India's Armed Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of India), to the extent that > even the metal cutlery at his dining table was "autoclaved" before we used > them. > > The people who are contracting and dying of COVID in India are the ones > who are fated to do so because of their own foolishness and ignorance, and > also because India's government wanted them to die. > https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563 > > Sarbajit Roy > New Delhi, India > > > > > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore > wrote: > >> Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the >> science and tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is >> amazingly cool what people can do what we decide to do so. >> you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos from people that made >> the vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a translation on what it >> meant to map the genetics. RNA. mRNA. And when I learned how safe the >> vaccine was. Then I decided I couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds >> like that's the opposite what some people are doing. It sounds like the >> hear: this was made using new medical technology, that hasn't neneded to be >> tested outside of labs until now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt. >> Which is a shame. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels >> wrote: >> >>> They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have >>> sufficient capacity. Through a triage process they can prioritize. It >>> must happen already, even if it isn't legal. Oh, the local drug addict is >>> here again. That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors. >>> If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply >>> refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't >>> need to be a mandate. And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting >>> allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc. No >>> shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service. >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: Friam On Behal
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
Nick, it would be politically insensitive / incorrect for me to discuss America's blacks in the context of, say, white plantation owners, "field hands" and "house n**s" (not sure if I can use this word online nowadays) which parallel India's untouchables or Japan's Burakumin /Eta societal structures. Was it coincidence that the USA's most deadly COVID hotspots were unhygienic meat "packing" factories which employ mostly lower income blacks / browns who were compelled to either work or lose their meagre medical benefits ? Sarbajit On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 9:04 AM wrote: > Sarbajit, > > > > I am both fascinated and baffled by your note, and hope you will say > more. I am in the thrall of a book entitled CASTE which makes a parallel > between the untouchables and American blacks. So for you to associate high > class with untouchability is disorienting. I gather that the notion of > Untouchables as a low caste includes a notion of Non-touchers as a high > class? I suppose it must, but I had never really thought about that. > > > > Nick > > > > Nick Thompson > > thompnicks...@gmail.com > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > > > > *From:* Friam *On Behalf Of *Sarbajit Roy > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:41 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > friam@redfish.com> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > > > > Hi > > I would like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally distasteful) > perspective on this from India. > > India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19 infections and > deaths after the USA. > > However, within India, there is a small class of people, like me, called > Adi Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste, who don't wear masks or take > clinically unproven or untested vaccinations, mainly because we continually > practice an ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since > Brahmins are traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, we > have known about virii, fomites, their modes of transmission, and how they > cause infection and disease for centuries and we knew this empirically even > before microscopes were invented. > > The rules and concepts of untouchability are drilled into Brahmin children > from infancy, and we practice it scrupulously even if it is banned by law > in India. And it's not as if we dont believe in Western medicine systems or > science, I was drilled by my grandfather who was the Director General of > India's Armed Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of India), to the extent that > even the metal cutlery at his dining table was "autoclaved" before we used > them. > > The people who are contracting and dying of COVID in India are the ones > who are fated to do so because of their own foolishness and ignorance, and > also because India's government wanted them to die. > https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563 > > > Sarbajit Roy > > New Delhi, India > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore > wrote: > > Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the > science and tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is > amazingly cool what people can do what we decide to do so. > > you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos from people that made > the vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a translation on what it > meant to map the genetics. RNA. mRNA. And when I learned how safe the > vaccine was. Then I decided I couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds > like that's the opposite what some people are doing. It sounds like the > hear: this was made using new medical technology, that hasn't neneded to be > tested outside of labs until now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt. > Which is a shame. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels > wrote: > > They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have > sufficient capacity. Through a triage process they can prioritize. It > must happen already, even if it isn't legal. Oh, the local drug addict is > here again. That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors. > If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply > refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't > need to be a mandate. And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting > allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc. No > shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service. > > -Original Message- > From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM &
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
Sarbajit, I am both fascinated and baffled by your note, and hope you will say more. I am in the thrall of a book entitled CASTE which makes a parallel between the untouchables and American blacks. So for you to associate high class with untouchability is disorienting. I gather that the notion of Untouchables as a low caste includes a notion of Non-touchers as a high class? I suppose it must, but I had never really thought about that. Nick Nick Thompson <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> thompnicks...@gmail.com <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam On Behalf Of Sarbajit Roy Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:41 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side Hi I would like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally distasteful) perspective on this from India. India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19 infections and deaths after the USA. However, within India, there is a small class of people, like me, called Adi Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste, who don't wear masks or take clinically unproven or untested vaccinations, mainly because we continually practice an ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since Brahmins are traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, we have known about virii, fomites, their modes of transmission, and how they cause infection and disease for centuries and we knew this empirically even before microscopes were invented. The rules and concepts of untouchability are drilled into Brahmin children from infancy, and we practice it scrupulously even if it is banned by law in India. And it's not as if we dont believe in Western medicine systems or science, I was drilled by my grandfather who was the Director General of India's Armed Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of India), to the extent that even the metal cutlery at his dining table was "autoclaved" before we used them. The people who are contracting and dying of COVID in India are the ones who are fated to do so because of their own foolishness and ignorance, and also because India's government wanted them to die. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563 Sarbajit Roy New Delhi, India On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com> > wrote: Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the science and tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is amazingly cool what people can do what we decide to do so. you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos from people that made the vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a translation on what it meant to map the genetics. RNA. mRNA. And when I learned how safe the vaccine was. Then I decided I couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds like that's the opposite what some people are doing. It sounds like the hear: this was made using new medical technology, that hasn't neneded to be tested outside of labs until now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt. Which is a shame. On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> > wrote: They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have sufficient capacity. Through a triage process they can prioritize. It must happen already, even if it isn't legal. Oh, the local drug addict is here again. That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors. If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't need to be a mandate. And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc. No shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service. -Original Message- From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not. Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you suggest would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect the laws that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon. Taking a look at this site: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
Hi I would like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally distasteful) perspective on this from India. India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19 infections and deaths after the USA. However, within India, there is a small class of people, like me, called Adi Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste, who don't wear masks or take clinically unproven or untested vaccinations, mainly because we continually practice an ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since Brahmins are traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, we have known about virii, fomites, their modes of transmission, and how they cause infection and disease for centuries and we knew this empirically even before microscopes were invented. The rules and concepts of untouchability are drilled into Brahmin children from infancy, and we practice it scrupulously even if it is banned by law in India. And it's not as if we dont believe in Western medicine systems or science, I was drilled by my grandfather who was the Director General of India's Armed Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of India), to the extent that even the metal cutlery at his dining table was "autoclaved" before we used them. The people who are contracting and dying of COVID in India are the ones who are fated to do so because of their own foolishness and ignorance, and also because India's government wanted them to die. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563 Sarbajit Roy New Delhi, India On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore wrote: > Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the > science and tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is > amazingly cool what people can do what we decide to do so. > you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos from people that made > the vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a translation on what it > meant to map the genetics. RNA. mRNA. And when I learned how safe the > vaccine was. Then I decided I couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds > like that's the opposite what some people are doing. It sounds like the > hear: this was made using new medical technology, that hasn't neneded to be > tested outside of labs until now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt. > Which is a shame. > > > > On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels > wrote: > >> They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have >> sufficient capacity. Through a triage process they can prioritize. It >> must happen already, even if it isn't legal. Oh, the local drug addict is >> here again. That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors. >> If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply >> refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't >> need to be a mandate. And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting >> allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc. No >> shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service. >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ >> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM >> To: friam@redfish.com >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side >> >> That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is >> largely irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious >> with a gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or >> not. >> >> Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks >> in the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you >> suggest would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect >> the laws that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon. >> >> Taking a look at this site: >> https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours >> it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. >> The actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid >> patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem. >> >> >> On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> > Will you consent to a vaccine? >> > >> > Yes: You get treatment for your non-COVID condition. No: Get lost. >> > >> > -Original Message- >> > From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM >> > To: friam@redfish.com >> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side >> > >> > Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. >> (Last I heard the percen
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the science and tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is amazingly cool what people can do what we decide to do so. you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos from people that made the vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a translation on what it meant to map the genetics. RNA. mRNA. And when I learned how safe the vaccine was. Then I decided I couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds like that's the opposite what some people are doing. It sounds like the hear: this was made using new medical technology, that hasn't neneded to be tested outside of labs until now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt. Which is a shame. On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels wrote: > They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have > sufficient capacity. Through a triage process they can prioritize. It > must happen already, even if it isn't legal. Oh, the local drug addict is > here again. That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors. > If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply > refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't > need to be a mandate. And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting > allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc. No > shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service. > > -Original Message- > From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM > To: friam@redfish.com > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > > That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely > irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a > gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not. > > Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in > the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you suggest > would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect the laws > that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon. > > Taking a look at this site: > https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours > it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The > actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid > patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem. > > > On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > Will you consent to a vaccine? > > > > Yes: You get treatment for your non-COVID condition. No: Get lost. > > > > -Original Message----- > > From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM > > To: friam@redfish.com > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > > > > Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. > (Last I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm > sure it's location dependent.) They're regular people with regular > problems, many of whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to > lockdowns. We did a little too much "just in time" logistical planning with > our hospitals and this fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our buffer > wasn't high enough. > > > > The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and > take care of both covid patients and regular people. > > > > > > On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > >> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals? Just don't let > them in. > >> > >> -Original Message- > >> From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > >> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM > >> To: friam@redfish.com > >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > >> > >> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, > everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us > or who's against us, then they're much less willing to submit to such tests. > >> > >> You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they antifa > are rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the fascists dig > in and be more committed to protesting, which makes the antifa more > committed, ad infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists out > there protesting mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) But as a > result, they're anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably. > >> > >> Along the same lines of "don't feed the tro
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have sufficient capacity. Through a triage process they can prioritize. It must happen already, even if it isn't legal. Oh, the local drug addict is here again. That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors. If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't need to be a mandate. And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc. No shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service. -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not. Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you suggest would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect the laws that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon. Taking a look at this site: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem. On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Will you consent to a vaccine? > > Yes: You get treatment for your non-COVID condition. No: Get lost. > > -Original Message- > From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM > To: friam@redfish.com > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > > Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. (Last > I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm sure it's > location dependent.) They're regular people with regular problems, many of > whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to lockdowns. We did a little > too much "just in time" logistical planning with our hospitals and this > fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our buffer wasn't high enough. > > The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and take > care of both covid patients and regular people. > > > On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals? Just don't let them >> in. >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ >> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM >> To: friam@redfish.com >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side >> >> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, >> everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us or >> who's against us, then they're much less willing to submit to such tests. >> >> You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they antifa are >> rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the fascists dig in and >> be more committed to protesting, which makes the antifa more committed, ad >> infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists out there >> protesting mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) But as a result, >> they're anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably. >> >> Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our attention >> on increasing the capacities of hospitals rather than brow beating the >> anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would climb steadily and the reactionary >> tendencies of the anti-vaxers would abate. >> >> >> On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>> These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests. -- ☤>$ uǝlƃ - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not. Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you suggest would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect the laws that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon. Taking a look at this site: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem. On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Will you consent to a vaccine? > > Yes: You get treatment for your non-COVID condition. No: Get lost. > > -Original Message- > From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM > To: friam@redfish.com > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > > Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. (Last > I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm sure it's > location dependent.) They're regular people with regular problems, many of > whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to lockdowns. We did a little > too much "just in time" logistical planning with our hospitals and this > fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our buffer wasn't high enough. > > The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and take > care of both covid patients and regular people. > > > On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals? Just don't let them >> in. >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ >> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM >> To: friam@redfish.com >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side >> >> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, >> everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us or >> who's against us, then they're much less willing to submit to such tests. >> >> You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they antifa are >> rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the fascists dig in and >> be more committed to protesting, which makes the antifa more committed, ad >> infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists out there >> protesting mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) But as a result, >> they're anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably. >> >> Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our attention >> on increasing the capacities of hospitals rather than brow beating the >> anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would climb steadily and the reactionary >> tendencies of the anti-vaxers would abate. >> >> >> On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>> These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests. -- ☤>$ uǝlƃ - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
Will you consent to a vaccine? Yes: You get treatment for your non-COVID condition. No: Get lost. -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. (Last I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm sure it's location dependent.) They're regular people with regular problems, many of whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to lockdowns. We did a little too much "just in time" logistical planning with our hospitals and this fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our buffer wasn't high enough. The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and take care of both covid patients and regular people. On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals? Just don't let them in. > > -Original Message- > From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM > To: friam@redfish.com > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > > Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, > everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us or > who's against us, then they're much less willing to submit to such tests. > > You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they antifa are > rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the fascists dig in and > be more committed to protesting, which makes the antifa more committed, ad > infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists out there > protesting mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) But as a result, > they're anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably. > > Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our attention > on increasing the capacities of hospitals rather than brow beating the > anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would climb steadily and the reactionary > tendencies of the anti-vaxers would abate. > > > On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests. > > > -- > ☤>$ uǝlƃ > > - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn > GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn > GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > -- ☤>$ uǝlƃ - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. (Last I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm sure it's location dependent.) They're regular people with regular problems, many of whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to lockdowns. We did a little too much "just in time" logistical planning with our hospitals and this fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our buffer wasn't high enough. The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and take care of both covid patients and regular people. On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals? Just don't let them in. > > -Original Message- > From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM > To: friam@redfish.com > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > > Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, > everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us or > who's against us, then they're much less willing to submit to such tests. > > You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they antifa are > rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the fascists dig in and > be more committed to protesting, which makes the antifa more committed, ad > infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists out there > protesting mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) But as a result, > they're anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably. > > Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our attention > on increasing the capacities of hospitals rather than brow beating the > anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would climb steadily and the reactionary > tendencies of the anti-vaxers would abate. > > > On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests. > > > -- > ☤>$ uǝlƃ > > - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > -- ☤>$ uǝlƃ - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals? Just don't let them in. -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us or who's against us, then they're much less willing to submit to such tests. You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they antifa are rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the fascists dig in and be more committed to protesting, which makes the antifa more committed, ad infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists out there protesting mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) But as a result, they're anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably. Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our attention on increasing the capacities of hospitals rather than brow beating the anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would climb steadily and the reactionary tendencies of the anti-vaxers would abate. On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests. -- ☤>$ uǝlƃ - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
Thanks. Nicely done, Dr. Steelman, In my 4 decades with diabetes, I have lived through (and mostly ignored) 4 different medical fads, all demanding, all diminishing quality and spontaneity of life, and all ultimately determined to be nugatory, or even damaging. Why wouldn't a wise patient be skeptical about fad 5.0? If Peirce is right, the correct regimen is that upon which they will converge in the very long run, if they ever do converge. No reason to believe I will be running that far. And of course, they may never converge? Truth is a rare commodity in a universe that is mostly random. So why do I care, if I am ignoring the fads? Well, because I honor them with my guilt. Why do I bother to do that? I have no idea. N Nick Thompson thompnicks...@gmail.com https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 12:04 PM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side Maybe I can steelman it, since I have so many personal relationships with anti-vax people. When I look around at the world, I see a clear difference between those people like me and those people who seem very different from me. Interacting with the people who are very different is stressful and time consuming. For example, explaining to my oncologist that it's very difficult for me to follow the diet she recommends, she being a very petite Asian, me being a 180 lb white dude who needs to be strong enough to pick up a 900 lb motorcycle when I drop it. Even beyond the cultural differences between us, there are blatant physiological and day-to-day context differences. These tiny differences are easy to let roll off, unless someone chooses to dig in their heels and make a stink about it. When someone, particular an *authority* like my oncologist, digs in and makes a stink about some "suggestion" they make on how to live my life, I get irritated, which eventually grows into anger. I'm also reflective enough to know that her recommendation is Correct, True, right, proper. But when I reflect like that, I might become disappointed in myself, squeezing my fat in the mirror or whatever. So the anger can turn to insecure self criticism. Or it can simply seethe and fester into resentment and distancing from her *and* her kind. Neither is a good outcome. This can go on for decades ... very smart people who I tend to trust, want to trust, lead to nothing but resentment or self criticism. Why would I continue to do that? Why continue to engage? Then some distant "authority" comes to me with rhetoric that sounds very similar to that of my oncologist ... snooty, know-it-all, "advice" or "mandates" for what I should be doing in order to be a moral person. Well, screw them! Not only have I lived for decades as I am, without being a vegetarian, without being at some sort of "optimal weight", without taking Vitamins every day, etc. Not only that. But I also read things from fairly reputable sources that simply contradict what they're telling me! Maybe, rather than vegetarianism, I should eat more animal protein and less carbs to get my fat % down? Obviously, these authorities don't know everything. The more they dig in, the more it pushes me to dig in. The more emphatically you are pro-vaccine, the more emphatically I become anti-vaccine. Reason and reasonableness leaves the building. On 8/24/21 6:37 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote: > What can possibly poses people to have a GD tantrum about vaccines. The > cynical of me thinks it's basically a tantrum mixed with deranged and > dangerous levels of trolling. While the "Jedi" side er the small part wanting > to see the best of these GD raving lunatics. It's, frankly, baffled. > The powers that be say put a GD mask on, and thank antivaxers. What > is pissing me off and just straitup confusing the ever living *** me > is how does this thinking work? Rejecting a compound that'll keep you > healthy? For me: I (literally) couldn't get in line fast enough! I > think I broke my caregiver who, I wanted to drive me their just in > case. Meen while the other extreme are these people having GD tantrum. > It's like: here's something that'll help you not get this virus,its > free and you just need to get in a line. The first thing they say is: > omg! free? why that smacks of [something they read someplace]. And ma > freedoms > > Can some please help me get just WTF these people are on, or how the hell > anything about how they think can possibly make any sense? -- ☤>$ uǝlƃ - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives:
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us or who's against us, then they're much less willing to submit to such tests. You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they antifa are rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the fascists dig in and be more committed to protesting, which makes the antifa more committed, ad infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists out there protesting mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) But as a result, they're anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably. Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our attention on increasing the capacities of hospitals rather than brow beating the anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would climb steadily and the reactionary tendencies of the anti-vaxers would abate. On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests. -- ☤>$ uǝlƃ - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
< The more they dig in, the more it pushes me to dig in. The more emphatically you are pro-vaccine, the more emphatically I become anti-vaccine. Reason and reasonableness leaves the building. > These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests. -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:04 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side Maybe I can steelman it, since I have so many personal relationships with anti-vax people. When I look around at the world, I see a clear difference between those people like me and those people who seem very different from me. Interacting with the people who are very different is stressful and time consuming. For example, explaining to my oncologist that it's very difficult for me to follow the diet she recommends, she being a very petite Asian, me being a 180 lb white dude who needs to be strong enough to pick up a 900 lb motorcycle when I drop it. Even beyond the cultural differences between us, there are blatant physiological and day-to-day context differences. These tiny differences are easy to let roll off, unless someone chooses to dig in their heels and make a stink about it. When someone, particular an *authority* like my oncologist, digs in and makes a stink about some "suggestion" they make on how to live my life, I get irritated, which eventually grows into anger. I'm also reflective enough to know that her recommendation is Correct, True, right, proper. But when I reflect like that, I might become disappointed in myself, squeezing my fat in the mirror or whatever. So the anger can turn to insecure self criticism. Or it can simply seethe and fester into resentment and distancing from her *and* her kind. Neither is a good outcome. This can go on for decades ... very smart people who I tend to trust, want to trust, lead to nothing but resentment or self criticism. Why would I continue to do that? Why continue to engage? Then some distant "authority" comes to me with rhetoric that sounds very similar to that of my oncologist ... snooty, know-it-all, "advice" or "mandates" for what I should be doing in order to be a moral person. Well, screw them! Not only have I lived for decades as I am, without being a vegetarian, without being at some sort of "optimal weight", without taking Vitamins every day, etc. Not only that. But I also read things from fairly reputable sources that simply contradict what they're telling me! Maybe, rather than vegetarianism, I should eat more animal protein and less carbs to get my fat % down? Obviously, these authorities don't know everything. The more they dig in, the more it pushes me to dig in. The more emphatically you are pro-vaccine, the more emphatically I become anti-vaccine. Reason and reasonableness leaves the building. On 8/24/21 6:37 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote: > What can possibly poses people to have a GD tantrum about vaccines. The > cynical of me thinks it's basically a tantrum mixed with deranged and > dangerous levels of trolling. While the "Jedi" side er the small part wanting > to see the best of these GD raving lunatics. It's, frankly, baffled. > The powers that be say put a GD mask on, and thank antivaxers. What > is pissing me off and just straitup confusing the ever living *** me > is how does this thinking work? Rejecting a compound that'll keep you > healthy? For me: I (literally) couldn't get in line fast enough! I > think I broke my caregiver who, I wanted to drive me their just in > case. Meen while the other extreme are these people having GD tantrum. > It's like: here's something that'll help you not get this virus,its > free and you just need to get in a line. The first thing they say is: > omg! free? why that smacks of [something they read someplace]. And ma > freedoms > > Can some please help me get just WTF these people are on, or how the hell > anything about how they think can possibly make any sense? -- ☤>$ uǝlƃ - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
Maybe I can steelman it, since I have so many personal relationships with anti-vax people. When I look around at the world, I see a clear difference between those people like me and those people who seem very different from me. Interacting with the people who are very different is stressful and time consuming. For example, explaining to my oncologist that it's very difficult for me to follow the diet she recommends, she being a very petite Asian, me being a 180 lb white dude who needs to be strong enough to pick up a 900 lb motorcycle when I drop it. Even beyond the cultural differences between us, there are blatant physiological and day-to-day context differences. These tiny differences are easy to let roll off, unless someone chooses to dig in their heels and make a stink about it. When someone, particular an *authority* like my oncologist, digs in and makes a stink about some "suggestion" they make on how to live my life, I get irritated, which eventually grows into anger. I'm also reflective enough to know that her recommendation is Correct, True, right, proper. But when I reflect like that, I might become disappointed in myself, squeezing my fat in the mirror or whatever. So the anger can turn to insecure self criticism. Or it can simply seethe and fester into resentment and distancing from her *and* her kind. Neither is a good outcome. This can go on for decades ... very smart people who I tend to trust, want to trust, lead to nothing but resentment or self criticism. Why would I continue to do that? Why continue to engage? Then some distant "authority" comes to me with rhetoric that sounds very similar to that of my oncologist ... snooty, know-it-all, "advice" or "mandates" for what I should be doing in order to be a moral person. Well, screw them! Not only have I lived for decades as I am, without being a vegetarian, without being at some sort of "optimal weight", without taking Vitamins every day, etc. Not only that. But I also read things from fairly reputable sources that simply contradict what they're telling me! Maybe, rather than vegetarianism, I should eat more animal protein and less carbs to get my fat % down? Obviously, these authorities don't know everything. The more they dig in, the more it pushes me to dig in. The more emphatically you are pro-vaccine, the more emphatically I become anti-vaccine. Reason and reasonableness leaves the building. On 8/24/21 6:37 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote: > What can possibly poses people to have a GD tantrum about vaccines. The > cynical of me thinks it's basically a tantrum mixed with deranged and > dangerous levels of trolling. While the "Jedi" side er the small part wanting > to see the best of these GD raving lunatics. It's, frankly, baffled. > The powers that be say put a GD mask on, and thank antivaxers. What is > pissing me off and just straitup confusing the ever living *** me is how > does this thinking work? Rejecting a compound that'll keep you healthy? For > me: I (literally) couldn't get in line fast enough! I think I broke my > caregiver who, I wanted to drive me their just in case. Meen while the other > extreme are these people having GD tantrum. It's like: here's something > that'll help you not get this virus,its free and you just need to get in a > line. The first thing they say is: omg! free? why that smacks of [something > they read someplace]. And ma freedoms > > Can some please help me get just WTF these people are on, or how the hell > anything about how they think can possibly make any sense? -- ☤>$ uǝlƃ - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
Pieter, People are always tasking me to find examples of where dualistic thinking leads us astray. I think you have one, here. The idea of self deception (or any deception, for that matter) implies that there is a Truth of the matter outside all experience, and knowing that Truth is adaptive. But if there is no truth outside of experience, then the only truth we have is in the form of predictions that “come true”, if you see what I mean. Now, predictions can come true in different time frames, long and short, and those time frames relate to the persistence of a type of organism depending on the life-span of the organism. Coming true means something quite different to a mouse and an elephant. Now my guy, Peirce, has defined Truth as that upon which belief will converge in the very long run. Where there is no ultimate convergence of opinion, in Peirce’s word, there just is no Truth. But no organism is around for that asymptote to be reached, so selection is insensitive to it. So, Pragmatically (and pragmatically, as well) we are left with “truths”, those consistencies in experience that endure long enough to have an effect on selection. Thanks, Pieter. By god that was a New Thought! Thanks for leading me to it. Nick Nick Thompson <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> thompnicks...@gmail.com <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam On Behalf Of Pieter Steenekamp Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 3:13 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side Gillian, My take on your question of how this thinking, of being an antivaxer, works? For me, the key lies in understanding human behavior. I know I'm waltzing on very thin ice because there are others in this group who have already forgotten what I still have to learn about human behavior , so I'm prepared to be severely humbled. This Friam group is excluded of course, but for the rest of humanity, humans make decisions subconsciously and then rationalise their decisions with logic. Their subconscious minds do not care about logic or whether it makes sense at all, it's just about emotions. One of the books I'm currently reading is Making Sense of World History by Rick Szostakt and I can't verbalise it better than the quote from the book: "Humans have an incredible capacity for self-deception. Our subconscious thoughts can guide us to act in ways that are cowardly, malicious, or jealous even if we would consciously disdain cowardice, malice and jealousy. Why did a mental capacity for self-deception evolve in humans? One theory is that self-deception aids us in other-deception. Humans have been selected for cooperation, and therefore selected to give and observe cues regarding dishonesty. As discussed above, we will feel guilty for lying (that is, violating a cultural value favouring honesty), and display this guilt physically. Human cooperation would be difficult if we lacked any ability to discern when others were lying. While cooperation depends on some degree of confidence in the honesty of others, individual success can nethertheless rely on some ability to cheat. In the complex evolution of human beings, then, we can expect selection pressure for both (detection of) honesty and dishonesty. Difficulty in consciously lying would encourage the cooperation on which human societies depend. Ability to lie subconsciously would be individually advantageous, and the limits it imposes on human cooperation might not prevent collaboration in hunting or gathering or agreeing on group decisions." I'm not condoning the antivaxers. Personally I consider vaccination technology one of humankind's greatest medical inventions ever, and I'm also super excited about the potential of mRNA vaccination technology in more effectively fighting future viruses. I'm merely trying to explain illogical behavior, that's what you asked, not so? Pieter On Wed, 25 Aug 2021 at 03:39, Gillian Densmore mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com> > wrote: What can possibly poses people to have a GD tantrum about vaccines. The cynical of me thinks it's basically a tantrum mixed with deranged and dangerous levels of trolling. While the "Jedi" side er the small part wanting to see the best of these GD raving lunatics. It's, frankly, baffled. The powers that be say put a GD mask on, and thank antivaxers. What is pissing me off and just straitup confusing the ever living *** me is how does this thinking work? Rejecting a compound that'll keep you healthy? For me: I (literally) couldn't get in line fast enough! I think I broke my caregiver who, I wanted to drive me their just in case. Meen while the other extreme are these people having GD tantrum. It's like: here's something that'll help you not get this virus,its free and you just need to get in a line. The fi
Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
Gillian, My take on your question of how this thinking, of being an antivaxer, works? For me, the key lies in understanding human behavior. I know I'm waltzing on very thin ice because there are others in this group who have already forgotten what I still have to learn about human behavior , so I'm prepared to be severely humbled. This Friam group is excluded of course, but for the rest of humanity, humans make decisions subconsciously and then rationalise their decisions with logic. Their subconscious minds do not care about logic or whether it makes sense at all, it's just about emotions. One of the books I'm currently reading is Making Sense of World History by Rick Szostakt and I can't verbalise it better than the quote from the book: "Humans have an incredible capacity for self-deception. Our subconscious thoughts can guide us to act in ways that are cowardly, malicious, or jealous even if we would consciously disdain cowardice, malice and jealousy. Why did a mental capacity for self-deception evolve in humans? One theory is that self-deception aids us in other-deception. Humans have been selected for cooperation, and therefore selected to give and observe cues regarding dishonesty. As discussed above, we will feel guilty for lying (that is, violating a cultural value favouring honesty), and display this guilt physically. Human cooperation would be difficult if we lacked any ability to discern when others were lying. While cooperation depends on some degree of confidence in the honesty of others, individual success can nethertheless rely on some ability to cheat. In the complex evolution of human beings, then, we can expect selection pressure for both (detection of) honesty and dishonesty. Difficulty in consciously lying would encourage the cooperation on which human societies depend. Ability to lie subconsciously would be individually advantageous, and the limits it imposes on human cooperation might not prevent collaboration in hunting or gathering or agreeing on group decisions." I'm not condoning the antivaxers. Personally I consider vaccination technology one of humankind's greatest medical inventions ever, and I'm also super excited about the potential of mRNA vaccination technology in more effectively fighting future viruses. I'm merely trying to explain illogical behavior, that's what you asked, not so? Pieter On Wed, 25 Aug 2021 at 03:39, Gillian Densmore wrote: > What can possibly poses people to have a GD tantrum about vaccines. > The cynical of me thinks it's basically a tantrum mixed with deranged and > dangerous levels of trolling. While the "Jedi" side er the small part > wanting to see the best of these GD raving lunatics. It's, frankly, baffled. > The powers that be say put a GD mask on, and thank antivaxers. What is > pissing me off and just straitup confusing the ever living *** me is how > does this thinking work? Rejecting a compound that'll keep you healthy? For > me: I (literally) couldn't get in line fast enough! I think I broke my > caregiver who, I wanted to drive me their just in case. Meen while the > other extreme are these people having GD tantrum. It's like: here's > something that'll help you not get this virus,its free and you just need to > get in a line. The first thing they say is: omg! free? why that smacks of > [something they read someplace]. And ma freedoms > > Can some please help me get just WTF these people are on, or how the hell > anything about how they think can possibly make any sense? > - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
[FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
What can possibly poses people to have a GD tantrum about vaccines. The cynical of me thinks it's basically a tantrum mixed with deranged and dangerous levels of trolling. While the "Jedi" side er the small part wanting to see the best of these GD raving lunatics. It's, frankly, baffled. The powers that be say put a GD mask on, and thank antivaxers. What is pissing me off and just straitup confusing the ever living *** me is how does this thinking work? Rejecting a compound that'll keep you healthy? For me: I (literally) couldn't get in line fast enough! I think I broke my caregiver who, I wanted to drive me their just in case. Meen while the other extreme are these people having GD tantrum. It's like: here's something that'll help you not get this virus,its free and you just need to get in a line. The first thing they say is: omg! free? why that smacks of [something they read someplace]. And ma freedoms Can some please help me get just WTF these people are on, or how the hell anything about how they think can possibly make any sense? - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
