Re: Pismo booting OS X from external Firewire

2004-05-10 Thread Brian Braunschweiger
Laurent wrote:
As another lister replied, yes and yes. The only thing you might want to
consider is whether you'll be spending more time in OS X or OS 9. If you
think you'll be spending more time in OS X, then it would be better to put
OS X onto the internal drive and OS 9 on the FW drive. With virtual memory
on all the time, you'll probably get better performance if OS X is running
off the internal drive. If you will just use it from time to time, then it
doesn't really matter.
Just my $0.02


For the time being I will be in OS 9 more. For most of what I do, 
that is plenty fast.

The other issue is that the FW drive is 40 gigs and the Pismo 
internal is only 10. From everything I have read I need to give 
Panther some room to breathe. I also only have 192 megs of RAM in 
the Pismo. AS soon as I have the $$$ I am going to add more RAM and 
get a bigger internal hard drive. If I can get my OS X setup off my 
iMac and onto the FW drive (easily doable according to answers here), 
I can then sell the iMac to generate some money towards the Pismo 
improvements.

Thanks!

Brian
--
Brian Braunschweiger

The only difference in the game of love over the last
few thousand years is that they've changed trumps
from clubs to diamonds.
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Re: Pismo booting OS X from external Firewire

2004-05-10 Thread Laurent Daudelin
On 10/05/04 12:40, Brian Braunschweiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Laurent wrote:
 As another lister replied, yes and yes. The only thing you might want to
 consider is whether you'll be spending more time in OS X or OS 9. If you
 think you'll be spending more time in OS X, then it would be better to put
 OS X onto the internal drive and OS 9 on the FW drive. With virtual memory
 on all the time, you'll probably get better performance if OS X is running
 off the internal drive. If you will just use it from time to time, then it
 doesn't really matter.
 
 Just my $0.02
 
 
 For the time being I will be in OS 9 more. For most of what I do,
 that is plenty fast.
 
 The other issue is that the FW drive is 40 gigs and the Pismo
 internal is only 10. From everything I have read I need to give
 Panther some room to breathe. I also only have 192 megs of RAM in
 the Pismo. AS soon as I have the $$$ I am going to add more RAM and
 get a bigger internal hard drive. If I can get my OS X setup off my
 iMac and onto the FW drive (easily doable according to answers here),
 I can then sell the iMac to generate some money towards the Pismo
 improvements.

To clone your iMac hard drive, Carbon Copy Cloner is your best friend...

-Laurent.
-- 

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mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Washington, DC, USA
 Usual disclaimers apply ***



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iBook Repair Program Expanded...Better...Still Not enough...

2004-05-10 Thread illovox
Still not enough...according to Moore.  I agree.  (See paragraph 3.
Hopefully parapgraph 6 will mean further expansions.)  But for those of you
with problems in the now expanded range, good for you:
---

Apple Expands iBook Repair Extension Program
by Charles Moore

Apple Computer has expanded its iBook Logic Board Repair Extension Program
to cover a wider range of machines.

After Apple announced the iBook repair program in January, some Mac users
complained that their iBooks had similar problems but were not included
within the range of eligible serial numbers to qualify for the remedy.

The program originally covered iBooks made between May 2002 and April 2003;
it now been expanded to cover units made through October 2003. This will be
good news for owners of the last batch of G3 iBooks made, but I have had
letters from owners of pre-May 2002 iBooks who claimed to have similar
symptoms to those covered under the program.

The Updated iBook Logic Board Repair Extension Program is a worldwide
program covering repair or replacement of the logic board in specific iBook
models manufactured between May 2002 and October 2003 that are experiencing
specific component failures.

The Updated iBook Logic Board Repair Extension Program covers iBooks that
have a particular component failure on the logic board, resulting in the
computer starting up but the built-in and attached external displays
exhibiting one or more of the following symptoms:
€ Scrambled or distorted video
€ Appearance of unexpected lines on the screen
€ Intermittent video image
€ Video freeze
€ Computer starts up to blank screen

The program covers affected iBooks for three years after the first retail
sale of the unit. Apple will continue to evaluate the repair data and will
provide further repair extensions as needed.

The program is now available for iBooks with serial numbers in the following
range(s):

UV220XX to UV342XX

iBooks with the serial numbers listed above may be referred to as:
€ 12 iBook (16 VRAM)
€ 14 iBook (16 VRAM)
€ 12 iBook (32 VRAM)
€ 14 iBook (32 VRAM)
€ 12 iBook (800 MHz 32 VRAM)
€ 12 iBook (900 MHz 32 VRAM)
€ 14 iBook (900 MHz 32 VRAM)


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Re: Ethernet PC Card for Lombard

2004-05-10 Thread Tom Burke
On 9 May 2004, at 00:09, G-Books wrote:

Message-Id: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Tom Burke [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Ethernet PC Card for Lombard
Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 19:58:28 +0100
Following on from the built-in ethernet tale of woe, does anyone have
any experience of using a PC Card (PCMCIA) ethernet card? Do they just
work, or is it necessary to install drivers? Can anyone recommend
brands to try or avoid?
I ought to mention that I'm in the UK. We have the same brands (just
about) but obviously our online suppliers are different.
Tom Burke
As a followup to the above post, I've just ordered a D-Link Cardbus DFE 
690 TXD card. Does anyone have any experience running this in a Lonbard 
(or similar) machine? I selected this one because it has Mac OS X 
driver...

Tom

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External cooler fan for G4 iBook

2004-05-10 Thread Michael Shaw
G  D:

In case anyone is interested the May 2004 Double Click has been put up 
on the MaUsE website.

Go to :   www.mause.caand click on the Files tab to find the 
download page.

It contains an article about active and passive devices for cooling 
laptop computers.

There is a ThermographX window showing relative temperatures for a G4 
iBook running for a few hours with and without  a cooler with a pair of 
little USB-powered fans under it.

M

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Powerbook take apart guides

2004-05-10 Thread Pete Gregory
Sorry if this is a dupe - my ssh - smtp proxy died as I sent this the 
first time.

Just seen a link to this site from slashdot  - hope it's useful to somebody.
http://www.pbfixit.com/Guide/
HAND
Pete.


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Re: WiFi range.

2004-05-10 Thread invicta

Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 17:30:32 -0500
Subject: Re: WiFi range.
From: Thomas Ethen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I don't remember the exact address where I got the information, but I  
may
have it on my desktop, which I will check when I get home. Here is a  
ABS
with external antenna for sale on ebay, which may lead you to the  
source for
the antenna itself.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? 
ViewItemcategory=44996item=3094857319
rd=1ssPageName=WDVW
Thank you both, Tom and Jim. The one on e-bay is the one offered by Dr  
Bott. Also mentioned in the Apple Store with the remark, to be used  
with the ABSE with modem and antenna connection (which I don't have)

Jim directed me to a sight with lots of relevant info which i will  
study tonight. It looks like I will be able to find my way now, thanks  
to the support of both of you.

Will let you know how I fare, greetings, Andre.

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Carbon Copy Cloner and its ilk....

2004-05-10 Thread illovox
A hearty thank you to all who have responded.  Here are the goals I have and
the problems I have encountered in accomplishing those goals:

I have a Pismo fully up to date not only with OSX and a 9.2.2 set up, but
also with all my apps and data, natch.  I want to clone the whole shebang to
my TiBook 667 (purchased over even faster models because it was the last
with irDa, a protocol I use and enjoy for quick file swaps with business
partners).

I recently tried CCC.  Problems encountered:

1.  Hang in the middle of clone?  Should one just continue or erase the
target and start over or leave target as is and start over?  I tried the
last solution and...

2.  The target volume was not bootable.

So, what have I done incorrectly?  Will it also clone all the 9.2.2 aspects?
Does the target have to be a certain speed?  (Currently, it is a 4400rpm 80
gigger, compared to the source, which a 7200rpm 40 gigger.)


All inout regarding accomplishing my goals welcome.

Yours,

Run V.
Illovox Media

-- 
Love means never having to say 'How was it?'
~Tony Randall

 To the best of my knowledge, CCC is the only SW that
 will  make a bootable image of an OS X start up disk.
 You can also use it to make perdiodic back-ups of said
 bootable disks.
 
 There are numerous products that can make a bootable image including
 SuperDuper which is what I am currently using. CCC is a fine product
 but
 from day one it has had one annoying flaw - it tends to stall while
 making a
 clone to an external drive. If you are cloning internal to internal or
 partition to partition it isn't as apt to stall but it still does
 occasionally. I've been using SuperDuper since the day it was released
 to
 make cloned disks for work. Great program.
 
 david

 CCC works great for me.. Occasionally an issue with getting it to bless the
 target drive.  Have only had that happen 2x's, and I've done 20 or so fully
 duplications. 
 
 My recommendation: make sure you double-check the drive before deleting your
 original drive!
 
 Tom

 Anyone with experience with Carbon Copy Cloner care to share use tips
 and
 experience?
 
 I'm using CCC in a home environment for about 8 months and never had a
 problem backing up my internal HD regularly.
 
 Greetings, Andre.


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Re: Carbon Copy Cloner and its ilk....

2004-05-10 Thread Bruce Johnson
On May 10, 2004, at 1:22 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

A hearty thank you to all who have responded.  Here are the goals I 
have and
the problems I have encountered in accomplishing those goals:

I have a Pismo fully up to date not only with OSX and a 9.2.2 set up, 
but
also with all my apps and data, natch.  I want to clone the whole 
shebang to
my TiBook 667 (purchased over even faster models because it was the 
last
with irDa, a protocol I use and enjoy for quick file swaps with 
business
partners).

I recently tried CCC.  Problems encountered:

1.  Hang in the middle of clone?  Should one just continue or erase the
target and start over or leave target as is and start over?  I tried 
the
last solution and...

2.  The target volume was not bootable.

The start over part was what messed up the bootable part, I'll bet.

It sounds as though there's a problem with the Ti disk. What I'd do is:

start the Tibook from the OS X CD and reformat the drive, don't forget 
to include the OS 9 drivers.

Now clone the Pismo to the Ti book in FW target mode.

I've done this three times without errors.



--
Bruce Johnson
This is the sig who says 'Ni!'

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Andre CCC

2004-05-10 Thread illovox

 From: invicta [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 I'm using CCC in a home environment for about 8 months and never had a
 problem backing up my internal HD regularly.
 
 Greetings, Andre.

Hey Andre,

So how are you set up and how do you use it exactly?  Do you back up to an
external or is this in a desktop backing up from internal HD to internal HD?
What is yoru picture?

Run


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Re: iBook Crash

2004-05-10 Thread Jim Katz
Thanks for the various help.  Just to let you know the outcome of this crash
on an original clamshell running OS9, we took the laptop in to an Apple
authorized tech.  He fixed it by running Disk Warrior, and recommended  get
DiskWarrior and remove TechTools which does nothing. 


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Bootable image--clarification, question

2004-05-10 Thread illovox
on 5/8/04 4:09 PM, G-Books at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 To the best of my knowledge, CCC is the only SW that
 will  make a bootable image of an OS X start up disk.
 You can also use it to make perdiodic back-ups of said
 bootable disks. 
 Best
 George


Bootable image...meaning burned to cd or dvd it will act as a bootable
volume?  If not, how do we make bootable cd's or dvd's?


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Thought I was ready to buy...

2004-05-10 Thread AlTerego
I've been lurking since I began my PB search months ago and find this 
list has been an incredible education! I've always been impressed 
with the feeling of community amongst computer geek and geekettes but 
this list is great.

At the community radio station where I volunteer we use the full 
version of DigiDesign ProTools. I haven't had any luck getting 
ProTools Free to work on my 7500, 9.2.2, G3, 333MHz, ZIF upgrade, 
256MB at home. It's truly a Frankenstein machine and I'm tired of 
playing the upgrade game plus it would be great not to be tied to a 
desktop hence the PB search.

I thought I was ready to buy a refurbished G4, 1GHz, 25, 40, 
SuperDrive from Apple for $1199 when I learned that DigiDesign says 
ProTools Free won't run in Classic. Gotta boot OS9. It's kinda weird 
to be steered away from the latest/greatest by the de facto standard 
(and great bargain) of ProTools, but that's the proverbial bottom 
line. So

-What is the latest PB to boot in OS9?

-Where can I find a definitive list to decode all the model names? 
(ie Pismo, Doheny, Lombard, Van Ness, etc.)

-Is anybody out there running ProTools on a PB?

I anxiously await your assiduous acknowledgement with escalated 
expectation and a priori appreciation,

Al Terego
--
There are two things that counseling has helped me realize: One is 
that I have Attention Deficit Disorder and maybe afterwards we could 
go see a movie. -Ken Kligerman

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Re: Pismo booting OS X from external Firewire

2004-05-10 Thread James Rohde
On 5/10/04, Brian Braunschweiger wrote:


For the time being I will be in OS 9 more. For most of what I do, 
that is plenty fast.

The other issue is that the FW drive is 40 gigs and the Pismo 
internal is only 10. From everything I have read I need to give 
Panther some room to breathe. I also only have 192 megs of RAM in 
the Pismo. AS soon as I have the $$$ I am going to add more RAM and 
get a bigger internal hard drive. If I can get my OS X setup off my 
iMac and onto the FW drive (easily doable according to answers here), 
I can then sell the iMac to generate some money towards the Pismo 
improvements.

Or - if you're somewhat technically inclined - you can swap the bigger 
drive into your Pismo after you have installed Panther onto it. Then (if 
it's easy to pull the bigger drive from the case) move the 10 GB into 
either your external case or another (if you have to trash the case from 
the bigger drive to get it out.

Even if you stay with the external drive in the case as is, there are 
some nice cases out there which are easy to put your 10 GB drive into 
(OWC, MacResQ and others).

Jim Rohde


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Re: Thought I was ready to buy... OS 9 compatible computers

2004-05-10 Thread RK Rossi
On May 10, 2004, at 14:19, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

-What is the latest PB to boot in OS9?
Al Terego
--
Hello Al,
The link below lists OS 8  9 compatible computers.
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=25114

-
RK Rossi
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Re: Andre CCC

2004-05-10 Thread Jan Musil
So how are you set up and how do you use it exactly?  Do you back up 
to an
external or is this in a desktop backing up from internal HD to 
internal HD?
What is yoru picture?
Question was not directed to me, but maybe this helps you. I'm using 
CCC for backup of my PowerBook G4 to external FW 400 HDD. PowerBook has 
2  partitions on the internal HDD and I have the same split of the FW 
disk. The FW partitions have the same names with BACKUP as a sufix. 
Then I copy disk to disk with CCC. And for the boot volume I use the 
'Make bootable' option. Otherwise copy of all files over. Once a month 
I run it with repair permissions. Happily donated for this great piece 
of software.

Regards, Jan

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Interesting G-book Take Apart Link

2004-05-10 Thread Clyde Kahrl
I just picked up this from slashdot :

http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/04/05/10/1024231.shtml?tid=137tid=180

I'm not sure what we are allowe to say about it.
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Re: External cooler fan for G4 iBook

2004-05-10 Thread Richard Bae
Nice article.  Thanks for the link.  I've been using a podium pad for a 
12 powerbook and now a 15 and it works just fine for me.  Never hear 
the fan and it never gets near the heat of just having the powerbook on 
the table.  The room I have it in is also not exactly the coolest, can 
get as warm as 80* in here during the summers.  Usually though its 
around 74* in here or so and the powerbook barely feels warm on the 
bottom on full cpu use.  I'm guessing there is no use for me for a fan 
powered cooler, but perhaps another working environment from mine would 
require so.

-Richard Bae
 richardbae.com
On 10 May 2004, at 11.49, Michael Shaw wrote:
G  D:

In case anyone is interested the May 2004 Double Click has been put up 
on the MaUsE website.

Go to :   www.mause.caand click on the Files tab to find the 
download page.

It contains an article about active and passive devices for cooling 
laptop computers.

There is a ThermographX window showing relative temperatures for a G4 
iBook running for a few hours with and without  a cooler with a pair 
of little USB-powered fans under it.

M

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Re: Thought I was ready to buy...

2004-05-10 Thread Laurent Daudelin
on 10/05/04 17:19, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I've been lurking since I began my PB search months ago and find this
 list has been an incredible education! I've always been impressed
 with the feeling of community amongst computer geek and geekettes but
 this list is great.
 
 At the community radio station where I volunteer we use the full
 version of DigiDesign ProTools. I haven't had any luck getting
 ProTools Free to work on my 7500, 9.2.2, G3, 333MHz, ZIF upgrade,
 256MB at home. It's truly a Frankenstein machine and I'm tired of
 playing the upgrade game plus it would be great not to be tied to a
 desktop hence the PB search.
 
 I thought I was ready to buy a refurbished G4, 1GHz, 25, 40,
 SuperDrive from Apple for $1199 when I learned that DigiDesign says
 ProTools Free won't run in Classic. Gotta boot OS9. It's kinda weird
 to be steered away from the latest/greatest by the de facto standard
 (and great bargain) of ProTools, but that's the proverbial bottom
 line. So
 
 -What is the latest PB to boot in OS9?
 
 -Where can I find a definitive list to decode all the model names?
 (ie Pismo, Doheny, Lombard, Van Ness, etc.)
 
 -Is anybody out there running ProTools on a PB?
 
 I anxiously await your assiduous acknowledgement with escalated
 expectation and a priori appreciation,

Cannot asked all your questions, but for a list of previous models with
their code name, go to everymac.com.

-Laurent.
-- 

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Logiciels Nemesys Software   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

BUAG // n.: [abbreviation, from alt.fan.warlord] Big Ugly ASCII Graphic.
Pejorative term for ugly ASCII art, especially as found in sig blocks. For
some reason, mutations of the head of Bart Simpson are particularly common
in the least imaginative sig blocks. See warlording. 


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defective pismo

2004-05-10 Thread Jeff Greffe
Hello there !  first time around here !

Not my first time with macs though ...
I got this dead pismo for a loaf of bread and started playing with it 
...

No, at first, it would turn on at all .. tried a reset of the pmu .. no 
go ... opened the case, looked at the RAM top and bottom, took the 
extra one out, and great !  I got a chime on start up, hard drive spins 
up (faulty RAM I guess) ... if I press option, I get access to 
available boot disks, like the hard drive and CD.

But ... I am stuck at the opening gray screen ... no apple logo, no 
question mark ...
Last time this happened to me, was with my G3 upgraded 8500, where the 
G3 card was defective ... could it be the case here with the processor 
card ? Is there a way to test the card, besides getting another one ?  
:)

I had a 6100AV, a 8500, a clamshell iBook, now an original G4 
PowerbookTi, but I am new to pismos !  so if you could share some of 
your experiences with that machine, it would be very much appreciated.

Thanks and have a nice day !

Jeff

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Re: defective pismo

2004-05-10 Thread Laurent Daudelin
on 11/05/04 00:13, Jeff Greffe at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hello there !  first time around here !
 
 Not my first time with macs though ...
 I got this dead pismo for a loaf of bread and started playing with it
 ...
 
 No, at first, it would turn on at all .. tried a reset of the pmu .. no
 go ... opened the case, looked at the RAM top and bottom, took the
 extra one out, and great !  I got a chime on start up, hard drive spins
 up (faulty RAM I guess) ... if I press option, I get access to
 available boot disks, like the hard drive and CD.
 
 But ... I am stuck at the opening gray screen ... no apple logo, no
 question mark ...
 Last time this happened to me, was with my G3 upgraded 8500, where the
 G3 card was defective ... could it be the case here with the processor
 card ? Is there a way to test the card, besides getting another one ?
 :)
 
 I had a 6100AV, a 8500, a clamshell iBook, now an original G4
 PowerbookTi, but I am new to pismos !  so if you could share some of
 your experiences with that machine, it would be very much appreciated.

Did you try booting from a known good system CD? Maybe the systems on the
drive are damaged?

-Laurent.
-- 

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Logiciels Nemesys Software   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sometimes the majority only means that all the fools are on the same side.


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Re: defective pismo

2004-05-10 Thread Jeff Greffe
yes I did ...


. if I press option, I
 get access to
  available boot disks, like the hard drive and CD.
  
  But ... I am stuck at the opening gray screen ...
 no apple logo, no
  question mark ...
  Last time this happened to me, was with my G3
 upgraded 8500, where the
  G3 card was defective ... could it be the case
 here with the processor
  card ? Is there a way to test the card, besides
 getting another one ?
  :)
   
 Did you try booting from a known good system CD?
 Maybe the systems on the
 drive are damaged?
 
 -Laurent.
 -- 


 Laurent Daudelin   AIM/iChat: LaurentDaudelin   
 http://nemesys.dyndns.org
 Logiciels Nemesys Software  
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Sometimes the majority only means that all the fools
 are on the same side.
 
 
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Re: defective pismo

2004-05-10 Thread Laurent Daudelin
on 11/05/04 00:25, Jeff Greffe at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 yes I did ...
 
 
 . if I press option, I
 get access to
 available boot disks, like the hard drive and CD.
 
 But ... I am stuck at the opening gray screen ...
 no apple logo, no
 question mark ...
 Last time this happened to me, was with my G3
 upgraded 8500, where the
 G3 card was defective ... could it be the case
 here with the processor
 card ? Is there a way to test the card, besides
 getting another one ?
 :)
 
 Did you try booting from a known good system CD?
 Maybe the systems on the
 drive are damaged?

Did you check to see if the processor daughterboard was properly snapped
onto the motherboard?

-Laurent.
-- 

Laurent Daudelin   AIM/iChat: LaurentDaudelinhttp://nemesys.dyndns.org
Logiciels Nemesys Software   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

fudge: 1. vt. To perform in an incomplete but marginally acceptable way,
particularly with respect to the writing of a program. I didn't feel like
going through that pain and suffering, so I fudged it -- I'll fix it later.
2. n. The resulting code.


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Re: WiFi range?

2004-05-10 Thread Paul Kurtz
Have you tried switching the frequency on your ABS, or tried the
interference robustness option on your laptop?  They may not work, but
they're free, so they couldn't hurt.

The other option might be to buy another brand of wireless router with an
adjustable antenna.  They are much cheaper then any of the ABS antenna
options, and most include 4 wired connections for other computers.  I have a
D-Link that can be found for around $30 on sale.

Paul

On 5/8/04 6:14 AM, invicta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hello All,
 
 Having trouble with my wireless range.
 
 Set up: DSL modem in the hall  Airport Base Extreme in the study at 6
 m. distance from the modem  17 PB running OS X v. 10.3.3. The APBE is
 mounted on the side of a wooden cupboard ± 2 m. from floor level and
 facing at 1.5 m. a window out to the garden. Signal level shows 12 of
 the 15 dots lighted. Building is bungalow type with brick walls.
 
 I know that range is influenced by many factors but I would expect a
 range in my garden to reach 25 m. but it doesn't. My Kensington WiFi
 finder also does not recognize the base station at this distance.
 
 Any advice?
 
 TIA, greetings, Andre.
 
 
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Re: Play in Pismo hinges

2004-05-10 Thread Laurent Daudelin
on 09/05/04 22:39, Scott Detwiler at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I just acquired a Pismo, and am enjoying it.
 
 I have noticed some play in the hinges. They are still firm when
 moving, but there's a brief lag before they catch when adjusting the
 screen. The lag is about an inch when measured at the top of the lid.
 
 Is this something I should be preemptive about and look into replacing?
 I have seen stories of video cables torn by broken clutch parts. Or
 does it sound like I still have time before anything is at risk?
 
 I would do the repairs myself. I've already been in and out of several
 2400c's and lived to tell the tale--the Pismo looks like a dream to
 work on compared to that.
 
 The hinges/clutches ain't cheap--I can see that--so I don't want to
 jump in lightly. On the other hand, I want to protect my investment
 where prudent.
 
 Advice?
 
 Scott
 

I think you're fine. My Pismo has similar behavior since I got it, almost 2
years ago and it didn't get worst.

-Laurent.
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copy protection n.: A class of methods for preventing incompetent pirates
from stealing software and legitimate customers from using it. Considered
silly. 


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