Re: on line privacy [spam filtering]

[Harry Corsover]

It's all about how we use email, and how important timing is to us, I  
guess.

On Feb 14, 2006, at 7:37 PM, Don P. wrote:


IMO, the convenience of the filters (properly
reviewed) far outweighs the rare occurance of an
error.


I see errors almost daily, since I send emails to prospects who  
aren't in my address book, and won't unless they pan out. Any of them  
who reply by email get flagged as spam, and I don't know a way around  
that. If I miss their reply, it either hurts my business or is  
impolite. And I don't want to have to check on a web site a dozen  
times a day.



Anything important
will probably be followed up if it is lost. People
that regard their correspondance as critical will
continue to use the U.S. Postal service.


Again--this depends on the nature of how we each use email. This is  
definitely not the case for me, and wouldn't work for me most of the  
time.


I consider confirming a follow-up telephone call later today or  
tomorrow important, and certainly not something that can be done by  
snail mail. If someone emails me to say they need to change the time  
of our phone appointment, I don't want to call them at the "old" time  
or think that they "no-showed" on me.


I could provide other examples, but I think you get what I mean here.

Regards,

Harry Corsover


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Re: on line privacy [spam filtering]

[Don P.]

 
> In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Message-Id:
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> From: Harry Corsover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: on line privacy
> Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 19:21:57 -0700
> 
> I'm no expert (and don't work at or for an ISP) but
> I haven's seen  
> any kind of ISP-level spam filtering that's
> acceptable to me. I don't  
> want even one false positive a day, let alone a
> week, and I don't  
> want to have to frequently check for them at an ISP
> (or domain  
> host's) web interface.
> 
> I'd rather sort through Mail's Junk folder many
> times a day and catch  
> the almost daily legit mail that gets put there.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Harry Corsover

Your opinion is understandable since I had the same
opinion. I use Earthlink and get most of my email thru
Yahoo. After avoiding the filters for a reasonable
time, I tried them out. After checking Subject titles
on hundreds of thousands of suspect SPAM sorted with
the filters I have only found one that I truely did
not want to  discard unread. 
My brother sent me a letter with a Subject line that
included "...fun times..".  When he asked me if I got
his email (since I hadn't replied), I found his email
within the 900+ that had been stored free by Yahoo.
IMO, the convenience of the filters (properly
reviewed) far outweighs the rare occurance of an
error. The nature of emails is inherently insecure
anyway. An error many people make is following the
analogy that it is equivalent to snail mail. Email
should be more analogous to a note put on your cork
board. Anybody can get to it and a lot of stuff that
you don't want will end up there.  Anything important
will probably be followed up if it is lost. People
that regard their correspondance as critical will
continue to use the U.S. Postal service. If we want it
to remain cheap and reliable, use it more! Ask for
more junk mail and less SPAM eMail!


__
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

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Re: on line privacy

[Harry Corsover]

On Feb 14, 2006, at 1:34 PM, Bruce Johnson wrote:

I never said that it did. I said we take steps to reduce them to a  
tolerable level. I believe my exact words were something like "a  
few per week".


Sorry for the misunderstanding. A few per week would be tolerable,  
especially if they wound up in my Junk folder rather than on a web- 
only list.


Tell you what, send me (offlist) a message like what you're  
describing, I'll tell you how OUR system scored it and why.


I'll do that. Thanks! And so it's a valid test, I won't alter the  
email in any way. Look for something with "Business Information from  
Harry Corsover" in the Subject line.


Regards,

Harry Corsover


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Re: on line privacy

[Bruce Johnson]

On Feb 14, 2006, at 11:41 AM, Harry Corsover wrote:



On Feb 14, 2006, at 11:09 AM, Bruce Johnson wrote:



Ours score in three levels: not spam, Spammish and Definitely Spam.

DefinitelySpam (scoring, iirc, > 15, where we've set a score of 4+  
means Spam) goes right into the bit bucket. No way should a  
legitimate e-mail look like that.


Spammish, 4-15,  gets sent through to the client. We flag the  
Subject line with ***SPAM*** to make it easy to sort out, and set  
the X-Spam-Status=Yes




I don't know your ISP or your system,



We are our own ISP, which is incredibly convenient. We're using  
SpamAssasin  to do our filtering.



but I do know that in my business, I talk with people (who have  
posted their resume on Monster.com, for instance) on the phone,  
then send them information if they're interested. The Subject reads  
"Business Information from Harry Corsover" and the body is short,  
giving them my business web site and confirming the time we've  
arranged for a follow-up phone call. I don't use my email signature  
in those emails.


Yet, fairly often, these wind up filtered out or labeled as spam,  
and my prospect or potential customer never sees the email.




This is the part they get wrong...they're just deleting or making the  
mail difficult to access if it's marked spam. Our approach is to send  
along anything that could possibly be marginal, just label it as  
spam. This is the approach we've taken, it's made e-mail far more  
usable for our users. A sizeable chunk of spam does flow to the end  
user, to be trapped by their junk filters.


This multi-layered approach has worked well for us.


This, to me, is unacceptable, since by no reasonable definition is  
my email spam. And this costs me time and money.




Without knowing HOW the other end is filtering the e-mails, I  
couldn't tell you. I do know that OUR system puts all the details in  
the mail headers:


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:30:05 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at pharmacy.arizona.edu
X-Spam-Status: Yes, hits=5.372 tagged_above=-999 required=4 tests= 
[AWL=0.150,

 BAYES_40=-1, FUZZY_AMBIEN=1, SARE_UND=2.222, URIBL_BLACK=3]
X-Spam-Level: *
X-Spam-Flag: YES

Which tells us exactly why this message was classified as spam. As it  
happens, this is from a false positive, it's an e-mail newsletter I'm  
susbcribed to. I could go in and tweak the various tests to get this  
one to pass (it usually does, in fact), or collect this message and  
train it back into the system as non-spam.






I've also seen quite normal-looking emails replying to a post on a  
professional email list with "SPAM" inserted into the subject line.  
Sometimes these show up with list email, and sometimes Mail puts  
them in my junk folder.


How do you know your system produces no false positives?



I never said that it did. I said we take steps to reduce them to a  
tolerable level. I believe my exact words were something like "a few  
per week".


Tell you what, send me (offlist) a message like what you're  
describing, I'll tell you how OUR system scored it and why.



--
Bruce Johnson

This is the sig who says 'Ni!'


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Re: on line privacy

[Malcolm Cornelius]

> Why are you staying with them if they don't give you the choice?
> 
> I wouldn't stay with an ISP that forced me to use their filtering any
> more than I would with one that forced me to use MSN.
> 
> Earthlink is my ISP, and PowWeb.com is my domain host (and it is a
> snap to simply turn off all their "protection" schemes). Otherwise,
> I'd go elsewhere.


Because that is just one part of a package ?

Price, support, reliability etc.

You will struggle to find one in UK that even gives you a choice to opt out,
in my experience many don't even let you sift thru a spam folder.

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http://www.pbfanatic.co.uk




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Re: on line privacy

[Harry Corsover]

On Feb 14, 2006, at 11:09 AM, Bruce Johnson wrote:


Ours score in three levels: not spam, Spammish and Definitely Spam.

DefinitelySpam (scoring, iirc, > 15, where we've set a score of 4+  
means Spam) goes right into the bit bucket. No way should a  
legitimate e-mail look like that.


Spammish, 4-15,  gets sent through to the client. We flag the  
Subject line with ***SPAM*** to make it easy to sort out, and set  
the X-Spam-Status=Yes


I don't know your ISP or your system, but I do know that in my  
business, I talk with people (who have posted their resume on  
Monster.com, for instance) on the phone, then send them information  
if they're interested. The Subject reads "Business Information from  
Harry Corsover" and the body is short, giving them my business web  
site and confirming the time we've arranged for a follow-up phone  
call. I don't use my email signature in those emails.


Yet, fairly often, these wind up filtered out or labeled as spam, and  
my prospect or potential customer never sees the email. This, to me,  
is unacceptable, since by no reasonable definition is my email spam.  
And this costs me time and money.


I've also seen quite normal-looking emails replying to a post on a  
professional email list with "SPAM" inserted into the subject line.  
Sometimes these show up with list email, and sometimes Mail puts them  
in my junk folder.


How do you know your system produces no false positives?

Regards,

Harry Corsover


--
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Harry Corsover
[EMAIL PROTECTED]303-909-9218
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Re: on line privacy

[Bruce Johnson]

On Feb 13, 2006, at 7:21 PM, Harry Corsover wrote:

I'm no expert (and don't work at or for an ISP) but I haven's seen  
any kind of ISP-level spam filtering that's acceptable to me. I  
don't want even one false positive a day, let alone a week, and I  
don't want to have to frequently check for them at an ISP (or  
domain host's) web interface.




We don't require that. SpamAssassin lets you put anything you want  
into the subject headers, and adds a header X-Spam-status=Yes to the  
message. Then it's delivered as normal.


Mail sees and treats the X-Spam-Status header appropriately. (There's  
a preference setting for this)



I'd rather sort through Mail's Junk folder many times a day and  
catch the almost daily legit mail that gets put there.




That's the way ours work.

Ours score in three levels: not spam, Spammish and Definitely Spam.

DefinitelySpam (scoring, iirc, > 15, where we've set a score of 4+  
means Spam) goes right into the bit bucket. No way should a  
legitimate e-mail look like that.


Spammish, 4-15,  gets sent through to the client. We flag the Subject  
line with ***SPAM*** to make it easy to sort out, and set the X-Spam- 
Status=Yes


I don't know what "real-world" ISP's do, but ours isn't enormously  
resource intensive, and this system works well both on our scale  
(8-900 accounts, give or take) and the bigger main UA server  (50K  
accounts).


--
Bruce Johnson

This is the sig who says 'Ni!'


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Re: on line privacy

[Harry Corsover]

Why are you staying with them if they don't give you the choice?

I wouldn't stay with an ISP that forced me to use their filtering any  
more than I would with one that forced me to use MSN.


Earthlink is my ISP, and PowWeb.com is my domain host (and it is a  
snap to simply turn off all their "protection" schemes). Otherwise,  
I'd go elsewhere.


Regards,

Harry Corsover
--
On Feb 14, 2006, at 2:23 AM, Malcolm Cornelius wrote:

I agree completely and I've struggled time after time to convince  
my ISP

that I want the right to opt out of their filtering.




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Re: on line privacy

[Malcolm Cornelius]

> I'm no expert (and don't work at or for an ISP) but I haven's seen
> any kind of ISP-level spam filtering that's acceptable to me. I don't
> want even one false positive a day, let alone a week, and I don't
> want to have to frequently check for them at an ISP (or domain
> host's) web interface.
> 
> I'd rather sort through Mail's Junk folder many times a day and catch
> the almost daily legit mail that gets put there.

I agree completely and I've struggled time after time to convince my ISP
that I want the right to opt out of their filtering.

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http://www.pbfanatic.co.uk




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Re: on line privacy

[Harry Corsover]

I'm no expert (and don't work at or for an ISP) but I haven's seen  
any kind of ISP-level spam filtering that's acceptable to me. I don't  
want even one false positive a day, let alone a week, and I don't  
want to have to frequently check for them at an ISP (or domain  
host's) web interface.


I'd rather sort through Mail's Junk folder many times a day and catch  
the almost daily legit mail that gets put there.


Regards,

Harry Corsover
---
On Feb 13, 2006, at 2:09 PM, Bruce Johnson wrote:

The only real solution is to move to an ISP with effective spam  
filtering on the backend.




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Re: on line privacy

[Bruce Johnson]

On Feb 13, 2006, at 1:13 PM, John Roberts wrote:



On Feb 13, 2006, at 4:45 AM, Brian McEwen wrote:

the CURRENT LIST is also archived publicly and indexed by  
google...it's a huge source of spam.



Well, that explains my spam problem.


No it doesn't. Spam addresses largely aren't culled from online  
websites anymore, most are stolen from virus-infected PC's.


The only real solution is to move to an ISP with effective spam  
filtering on the backend.


We currently cull nearly a third of all e-mail that comes to our  
servers, and we're being pretty conservative, to avoid false  
positives (non-spam labeled  as spam.)


Still we're getting more of those than we'd like. This caught the  
Google groups confirmation mail sent to me the other day, so I have  
to check my Junk folder regularly.


However, it IS pretty good; only a handful of junks have actually  
arrived in my inbox, all properly labeled SPAM, so the Junk Filter in  
Mail takes care of those. Spam Assassin is a good, good thing. We've  
structured our servers to integrate AV screening and Spam screening  
in one process stream, so we don't bother spam scanning anything  
kicked out by the AV scanner.


Without this two-level screening process, I'd get a hundred a day, at  
least.


--
Bruce Johnson

This is the sig who says 'Ni!'


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Re: on line privacy

[Howard Katz]

On 2/13/06, John Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Well, that explains my spam problem.


Funny--I get more spam to gmail accounts that aren't being used with a
google group account.  :)

The whole privacy problem is going to happen wherever the list is
moved to unless it's on someone's secure, private server with a
majordomo listserv program.  We generate a fair amount of bandwidth
for someone to donate this kind of service.  Any of the commercial
services--yahoo, AOL Gmail, Earthlink et al are going to end up
archiving messages.  Just don't send something you wouldn't want a
5-year-old to read.

(And I'm still trying to find that firefox extention to force an https
connection to gmail.  I found the customizegoogle website, but for
some reason firefox itself (or one of my extensions?  I don't see one
set up to do this) keeps blocking the download/install of the
program.)

LaterHoward

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Re: on line privacy

[John Roberts]

On Feb 13, 2006, at 4:45 AM, Brian McEwen wrote:

the CURRENT LIST is also archived publicly and indexed by  
google...it's a huge source of spam.



Well, that explains my spam problem.

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Re: on line privacy

[Woody Duncan]

Brian McEwen wrote:


I'm on another large e-mail list that has a public archive.
They made some changes on their server and now mask our
e-mail addressees. They even went back and removed all
e-mail addresses from the old archive.
Woody

will *google groups* do that?

Or do you mean you -are- on a google-hosted list that does that.   That 
would be great.


No, it is not a Google list.
Woody
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Re: on line privacy

[Brian McEwen]

On Feb 13, 2006, at 7:59 AM, Woody Duncan wrote:


Brian McEwen wrote:

Can Dan mask our email addesses in the google archive?  Else it's  
a  huge source of spam.


I'm on another large e-mail list that has a public archive.
They made some changes on their server and now mask our
e-mail addressees. They even went back and removed all
e-mail addresses from the old archive.
Woody


Right, their server, it's easy (er) to do that.

will *google groups* do that?

Or do you mean you -are- on a google-hosted list that does that.   
That would be great.


Looking forward to list footers being short.  Save electrons!

B


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Re: on line privacy

[Woody Duncan]

Brian McEwen wrote:

Can Dan mask our email addesses in the google archive?  Else it's a  
huge source of spam.


I'm on another large e-mail list that has a public archive.
They made some changes on their server and now mask our
e-mail addressees. They even went back and removed all
e-mail addresses from the old archive.
Woody
--
Woody, Retired in Albuquerque
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

35 Quality Middle School Art Lessons
in powerpoint format, on one CD $17 (includes shipping)
http://www.taospaint.com/QualityLessons.html
Ordering Address: PO Box 91703
Albuquerque, NM87199-1703

“The function of the overwhelming majority of your artwork
is simply to teach you how to make the small fraction
of your artwork that soars.”  from: “Art & Fear”

Woody's Watercolor Portfolio:
http://www.taospaint.com/Portfolio/Watercolors.html
Newest Fantastic Triplet Pics:
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My newest watercolors:
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Re: on line privacy

[Brian McEwen]

On Feb 12, 2006, at 7:50 PM, Concetta Z wrote:



OK, I just went to Google Groups. This new group has PUBLIC archives.
Concetta



  the CURRENT LIST is also archived publicly and indexed by  
google. So that's not that new.


Can Dan mask our email addesses in the google archive?  Else it's a  
huge source of spam.


B


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Re: on line privacy

[sandra ragan]

On Feb 12, 2006, at 4:50 PM, Concetta Z wrote:


As an experiment to confirm what I thought:


I was looking for something else and did a simple google search on 
"plumdigital"  ... the results list contained two recent posts from 
this list... because it caught my email address... a pretty easy thing 
to search on.


Sandra Ragan
www.plumdigital.com

Knowledge is a rare thing -- you gain by giving it away.
—Ivan Sutherland


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Re: on line privacy

[Concetta Z]

Tim Hodgson wrote:
I think Sandra's making the distinction between a private mailing 
list,
such as G-Books was, and a list which is publicly archived and can 
thus
be searched via Google. But I don't know whether that's true of 
Google groups.


I'm on other lists that archive the postings. If I Google my name or
the specific topic I find links to my e-mail in the archives. Even if
that were not true, one should assume that anything posted on the web
is out there somewhere for all to see. Woody

They'd have to know what to look for, I believe.  Also, I thought
there was an option that Dan could choose to keep the list from being
searchable.  He may have done that.  (Dan?)



As an experiment to confirm what I thought:
I belong to 5 Yahoo Groups. Only one of them has PUBLIC archives.
I Googled myself in all sorts of forms. I did find some records - ONLY 
from the list that had PUBLIC archives.


OK, I just went to Google Groups. This new group has PUBLIC archives.
Concetta


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Re: on line privacy

[Donald Keenan]

On Sunday, February 12, 2006, at 11:55 AM, Jon Kotek wrote:


On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 19:06:03 -0800, sandra ragan wrote

Having run into this by accident last week... just thought I'd
remind you all that random Google searches can bring up your posts
to this list... nothing in these electronic forums should be
considered "private" and may come back to haunt you...


You should always think of email like mailing a postcard, anyone can  
read the

information.

You won't believe how many people think Email is private.





An important point to keep in mind is that employers (and prospective  
dating partners, for that matter) routinely do informal background  
checks via Google. Also, HR people often join Friendster and the like  
to cull personal info on prospective employees. New York Magazine did a  
piece a few months ago on this called "MySpace Invaders":





Donald


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Re: on line privacy

[Woody Duncan]

Tim Hodgson wrote:


I think Sandra's making the distinction between a private mailing list,
such as G-Books was, and a list which is publicly archived and can thus
be searched via Google. But I don't know whether that's true of Google groups.


I'm on other lists that archive the postings. If I Google my name or
the specific topic I find links to my e-mail in the archives. Even if
that were not true, one should assume that anything posted on the web
is out there somewhere for all to see.
Woody



--
Woody, Retired in Albuquerque
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

35 Quality Middle School Art Lessons
in powerpoint format, on one CD $17 (includes shipping)
http://www.taospaint.com/QualityLessons.html
Ordering Address: PO Box 91703
Albuquerque, NM87199-1703

“The function of the overwhelming majority of your artwork
is simply to teach you how to make the small fraction
of your artwork that soars.”  from: “Art & Fear”

Woody's Watercolor Portfolio:
http://www.taospaint.com/Portfolio/Watercolors.html
Newest Fantastic Triplet Pics:
http://www.taospaint.com/Kansas05/Christmas.html
My newest watercolors:
http://www.taospaint.com/Portfolio/Beach/Watercolors.html


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Re: on line privacy

[Tim Hodgson]

On Sun, Feb 12, 2006 at 4:55 pm -0600, Jon Kotek wrote:

>On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 19:06:03 -0800, sandra ragan wrote
>> Having run into this by accident last week... just thought I'd 
>> remind you all that random Google searches can bring up your posts 
>> to this list... nothing in these electronic forums should be 
>> considered "private" and may come back to haunt you...
>
>You should always think of email like mailing a postcard, anyone can read the
>information.
>
>You won't believe how many people think Email is private.

I think Sandra's making the distinction between a private mailing list,
such as G-Books was, and a list which is publicly archived and can thus
be searched via Google. But I don't know whether that's true of Google groups.

TimH


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Re: on line privacy

[Jon Kotek]

On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 19:06:03 -0800, sandra ragan wrote
> Having run into this by accident last week... just thought I'd 
> remind you all that random Google searches can bring up your posts 
> to this list... nothing in these electronic forums should be 
> considered "private" and may come back to haunt you...

You should always think of email like mailing a postcard, anyone can read the
information.

You won't believe how many people think Email is private.



-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.


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Re: on line privacy

[Tim Hodgson]

On Sun, Feb 12, 2006 at 3:25 pm -0600, Howard Katz wrote:

>They'd have to know what to look for, I believe.  Also, I thought
>there was an option that Dan could choose to keep the list from being
>searchable.  He may have don that.  (Dan?)
>
>Overall I'm comfortable with being on Google.

So am I - as long as people quote some context so I have a clue what
they're talking  about. ;-)

TimH


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Re: on line privacy

[Howard Katz]

They'd have to know what to look for, I believe.  Also, I thought
there was an option that Dan could choose to keep the list from being
searchable.  He may have don that.  (Dan?)

Overall I'm comfortable with being on Google.


Later..Howard

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Re: on line privacy

[William Wiseman]

Gee, but it's great
accepting your fate
in the fascist state


Peter Webster


Except the analogy is totally absurd. Freely posting your thoughts  
and opinions, without State control, is the antithesis of Fascism. If  
you don't want the world to know certain of your actions, thoughts  
and opinions, don't post them. World Wide Web means it is available  
to the world.


JeffW.

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Re: on line privacy

[Peter Webster]

On Feb 11, 2006, at 7:06 PM, sandra ragan wrote:

Having run into this by accident last week... just thought I'd  
remind you all that random Google searches can bring up your posts  
to this list...
nothing in these electronic forums should be considered "private"  
and may come back to haunt you...


NEEDHAM, MA -- The Salary.com 2005/2006 Employee Satisfaction and  
Retention Survey


in a related article:
Employers are turning to the Web to learn more about applicants.  
Recruiters for Pella Corp. may do Google searches on potential  
hires to see information that might not be on their resumes, said  
Kathy Krafka Harkema, spokeswoman for the Iowa-based window  
manufacturer. "Blogs are great things. They are also public  
information," Krafka Harkema said. "It's very important to  
consider in this information age: Your private life can be public  
very easily."




Gee, but it's great
accepting your fate
in the fascist state


Peter Webster
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://disturbingthecomfortable.blogspot.com/



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