Re: [Audyssey] About pc games

2014-12-18 Thread Dakotah Rickard
I'm only the most basic kind of hobbyist programmer right now. I have
the logic, but I don't fully understand the creation tools. However, I
have started and stopped enough projects to understand what Tom is
saying about motivation. Jeremy/Aprone faced the same difficulty with
Swamp.
However, I also understand something else. A team keeps people
motivated by offering support, encouragement, and the occasional kick
in the butt. A team of people is generally listed in the credits for
every indie game out there and every mainstream game.
Our developers seem to occasionally work on teams, but the majority,
the ones as part of this topic, the vast majority, work alone. alone,
there is just that one person doing everything. Not only is the
project their baby alone, their precious work, it is their
responsibility if they lose motivation. If they get  burnt out, then a
lot of people get disappointed.
The fact of the matter is that there's a long history of piracy in our
community to overcome. There are three choices: make a game with
stringent product protection, something that requires a by-Skype or
by-phone activation, keep going with medium protection and hope people
will not pirate it too much, or go with low product protection but
make the kind of smash-hit game that makes people want to pay, the
kind of game that people can really get righteous about.
I think options 1 and 3 are good. However option 3 has the advantage
of guaranteeing us something fantastic. No matter the option, anything
done works better with a team.
Yes, a team means conflict, disagreement, but it also means something
truly memorable. It means that we can have something truly amazing.

On 12/18/14, Jacob Kruger ja...@blindza.co.za wrote:
 Thomas, will do.

 Main things are to rework actual interaction, interface, some of the sort of

 strategy logic, and to add things like sound effects etc.

 Actually quite amusing thinking of how it all seemed to me at the time when

 while OOP was pretty much standard from my side, implementing it properly in

 python was another thing...smile

 Stay well

 Jacob Kruger
 Blind Biker
 Skype: BlindZA
 ...Roger Wilco wants to welcome you, to the space janitor's closet...

 - Original Message -
 From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2014 12:32 AM
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About pc games


 Hi Jacob,

 Definitely keep us posted on that project. I remember when you
 released the original version of your simple RPG engine, and it was a
 cool program if a bit simplistic for a first realize. I'll be looking
 forward to any updates you may have in the future regarding that
 particular project.

 Cheers!


 On 12/17/14, Jacob Kruger ja...@blindza.co.za wrote:
 Thomas/Dark,

 One of my holiday time plans this year is to rework my mapData, simple
 role-playing engine, which I slapped together using python, since while
 I
 originally used it as one of my forms of self-introduction to python
 quite a

 while ago, I have moved a lot farther on - I am nowadays actually working

 on

 an almost fully professional basis as a python programmer - among a
 couple
 of other platforms/languages.

 Stay well

 Jacob Kruger
 Blind Biker
 Skype: BlindZA
 ...Roger Wilco wants to welcome you, to the space janitor's closet...


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-- 
Signed:
Dakotah Rickard

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Re: [Audyssey] audio games popularity

2014-12-18 Thread Michael Gauler

Such a community project might be a good idea.
And maybe something to bring the focus back to computer users.
While I don't have anything personal against mobile devices, we have or will 
get some rather complex mobile (IOS) games in the near future.
But the sad thing about this that not even Mac users won't get anything 
through this, since IOS and Mac are obviously two separate things.
But if Mac has more onboard accessibility features than Windows has, I 
wonder if mainstream Mac games could be made accessible like some mainstream 
IOS titles might be playable by blind or visually impaired users. 



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Re: [Audyssey] audio games popularity

2014-12-18 Thread Michael Gauler
I know that some people made games for fun or because they wanted to earn 
some money.

How much money they actually got, I obviously don't know.
And since many of the games we talked about, e.g. Justin's or Liam's titles 
are a bit older, no one knows how much money could be made from them in the 
year 2014.
But in case of Justin at least, it had been years since he last released a 
new title.
Obviously I can't know why he didn't do more or why he did not close his 
doors earlier if he wanted to stop.
But I also can't know if his next title, if it ever came, would have been a 
success or not among paying gamers. 



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Re: [Audyssey] About pc games

2014-12-18 Thread Michael Gauler

That's actually sad in so many levels.
First is of course the problems with the high unemployment rates you 
mentioned.
But what I'd like to know is if there is an actual estimation on how many 
blind or visually impaired people are actually in the USA and how many of 
them are interested in games and not how many of them could afford them.


On the other hand, ESP Soft and later Draconis made more than one paid 
title.
Either the people behind said games had lots of money or they earned lots of 
it through their sales.
If their games were not a success on the small market, we wouldn't have seen 
more games from them and I think that Monkey Business was their most complex 
game so far.
It seems that however small the market might be, that you still can make 
money through it, if not, all paid games wouldn't be here anymore. 



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Re: [Audyssey] About pc games

2014-12-18 Thread Michael Gauler

That's what I thought, too.
I mean, mainstream games often use some kind of game engines where you still 
might need knowledge in whatever script or other language the tools work 
with.
However such engines come with lots of extra tools for level design or for 
creating your data files once you made your data folder.
But most audio game developers probably had to do this by hand inventing 
data file formats, level layout and then actually code them line by line.


This is one reason why I find it a bit sad that there is no public 
information about the GMA Engine available, even if you would find out that 
it is not the right tool for you.


I also would like to know what happened to the game engine in development by 
USA Games. 



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Re: [Audyssey] audio games popularity

2014-12-18 Thread Michael Gauler

But that problem is not limited to the audio games sector.
I mean people who demand things for free or who don't care and develop 
cracks and such stuff and distribute them through the internet.

Cracked software or games can be found everywhere.
Obviously it has a bigger impact on a small market.
But the problem is the same wherever you look. 



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Re: [Audyssey] About pc games

2014-12-18 Thread Josh k

don't forget about bgt.

On 12/18/2014 6:52 AM, Michael Gauler wrote:

That's what I thought, too.
I mean, mainstream games often use some kind of game engines where you 
still might need knowledge in whatever script or other language the 
tools work with.
However such engines come with lots of extra tools for level design or 
for creating your data files once you made your data folder.
But most audio game developers probably had to do this by hand 
inventing data file formats, level layout and then actually code them 
line by line.


This is one reason why I find it a bit sad that there is no public 
information about the GMA Engine available, even if you would find out 
that it is not the right tool for you.


I also would like to know what happened to the game engine in 
development by USA Games.


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Re: [Audyssey] dos games

2014-12-18 Thread Joshua Tubbs
Cool, please let me know if anyone can get this to work. Now I wish PCSGames 
still had their Dos links up.
I can try Jim Kitchens Dos games though.

 On Dec 17, 2014, at 11:21 PM, Josh k joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 hey i found a gem! the flipper screen reader with sbtalker included! here is 
 the link. if anyone gets this working in dosbox please let me know.
 
 https://www.sendspace.com/file/qsfgnl
 
 
 
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Re: [Audyssey] dos games

2014-12-18 Thread Josh k
yes, sb-talker was the only software speech for dos that I know of. and 
flipper was a very good screen reader. that website i found has tons of 
old dos goodies on it. such as wordperfect 5.1, lotus 123, and more.


On 12/18/2014 7:47 AM, Joshua Tubbs wrote:

Cool, please let me know if anyone can get this to work. Now I wish PCSGames 
still had their Dos links up.
I can try Jim Kitchens Dos games though.


On Dec 17, 2014, at 11:21 PM, Josh k joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote:

hey i found a gem! the flipper screen reader with sbtalker included! here is 
the link. if anyone gets this working in dosbox please let me know.

https://www.sendspace.com/file/qsfgnl



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Re: [Audyssey] audio games popularity

2014-12-18 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Michael,

Hard to say now if any of Justin's new titles would have been a
success, but I can say from the sound of it the Void and Castle Quest
might have been decent successes if either one of them had seen the
light of day. They were both sound ideas, and markedly different games
from anything else Justin created before.

That said, even so the fact of the matter is neither of them would
have produced a developer with a living wage. Even if you consider
1,000 sales at $20 each that would only be $20,000 for one product.
Factor that out over a year or more of development, take out state and
federal taxes, and the developer's take home pay isn't much more than
minimum wage. Consider that the average developer for Microsoft or a
game designer for a major game studio takes home about $60,000 that
little bit made off of audio games is laughably small. That's where
the problem lies.

You and others want a very complicated game to be created that will
take up months and weeks of a developers time. You expect him or her
to work for practically nothing while consoling himself or herself
with the enjoyment of the work. For some people that is enough, but in
the world we are given to live in it really is not. People have to
eat, pay the electric bill, purchase computer equipment and software,
and the best way to do that is by being compensated for their time and
work.

Cheers!


On 12/18/14, Michael Gauler michael.gau...@gmx.de wrote:
 I know that some people made games for fun or because they wanted to earn
 some money.
 How much money they actually got, I obviously don't know.
 And since many of the games we talked about, e.g. Justin's or Liam's titles

 are a bit older, no one knows how much money could be made from them in the

 year 2014.
 But in case of Justin at least, it had been years since he last released a
 new title.
 Obviously I can't know why he didn't do more or why he did not close his
 doors earlier if he wanted to stop.
 But I also can't know if his next title, if it ever came, would have been a

 success or not among paying gamers.


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Re: [Audyssey] audio games popularity

2014-12-18 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Michael,

I doubt it. Any time a mainstream game is made accessible it is
through a conscious effort on the part of the developer to make it
accessible to a screen reader. There aren't many mainstream developers
developing games for Mac, and those who do would have to be approached
individually about access improvements.

The other problem is emulation. One thing that make games for Mac
different from Windows is that many are developed using emulation
software like Cider which allows Windows games to be ported to Mac
without major changes in APIs and code. Problem is since the games are
being emulated that increases the problems with accessibility since
there isn't anything for the screen reader to lock onto and read. The
way VoiceOver works is it checks Mac's accessibility APIs for incoming
text etc, and if it doesn't see anything as far as VoiceOver is
concerned nothing exists. Since emulators like Cider do not transfer
onscreen information through the accessibility pipeline there is
nothing for VoiceOver to see.

So no. I don't see mainstream games for Mac being made accessible any
more than I would expect the average mainstream game for Windows to be
made accessible.

Cheers!


On 12/18/14, Michael Gauler michael.gau...@gmx.de wrote:
 Such a community project might be a good idea.
 And maybe something to bring the focus back to computer users.
 While I don't have anything personal against mobile devices, we have or will

 get some rather complex mobile (IOS) games in the near future.
 But the sad thing about this that not even Mac users won't get anything
 through this, since IOS and Mac are obviously two separate things.
 But if Mac has more onboard accessibility features than Windows has, I
 wonder if mainstream Mac games could be made accessible like some mainstream

 IOS titles might be playable by blind or visually impaired users.


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Re: [Audyssey] About pc games

2014-12-18 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Michael,

The USA Games engine you speak of, Evolution 3D, is and has been in
ongoing development. I'm not sure what more you would like me to say
about it other than for the most part the engine is stable, has been
used to develop games like Mysteries of the Ancients and Raceway,, and
currently has been updated to handle Mac OS and Linux operating
systems. It is not, however, publicly available.

Cheers!


On 12/18/14, Michael Gauler michael.gau...@gmx.de wrote:
 That's what I thought, too.
 I mean, mainstream games often use some kind of game engines where you still

 might need knowledge in whatever script or other language the tools work
 with.
 However such engines come with lots of extra tools for level design or for
 creating your data files once you made your data folder.
 But most audio game developers probably had to do this by hand inventing
 data file formats, level layout and then actually code them line by line.

 This is one reason why I find it a bit sad that there is no public
 information about the GMA Engine available, even if you would find out that

 it is not the right tool for you.

 I also would like to know what happened to the game engine in development by

 USA Games.


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Re: [Audyssey] About pc games

2014-12-18 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Michael,

I'm not sure about actual figures on how many blind people there are
in the USA that are interested in games since that kind of information
often gets excluded from surveys. Plus since a lot of blind computer
users in the US often get their computers through government sponsored
state agencies many of them are afraid to install games and other
recreational software on their PC. I've met my fair share of blind
computer users who were specifically told by their counselor that
their computer was a tool for work, school, etc and not to install
games and other software on it. Since they are afraid of getting in
trouble even though they might want games they won't risk it. So one
thing we face as game developers is the paradigm that computers are
only to be used for work and they can happily be used for both
regardless of what some state agency says.

As for making money of accessible games the issue isn't that one can
not make money off it. Obviously, ESP, Draconis, GMA, BSC Games, and
others all made money off of making accessible games for the blind.
The issue is one can't making a living wage off of developing games
for the blind full time. They have to find some other way to make
money to supplement the income from the games, because making and
selling accessible games aren't enough in of itself.

You mentioned ESP. At the time all the ESP games were originally
created they were developed by a man named James North. Unlike most
audio game developers James North was sighted and had a regular 9 to 5
job. He wrote games like Alien Outback, Monkey Business, DynaMan, and
ESP Pinball in his spare time and made money off of them. While I'm
sure James made a few thousand off those games it wasn't enough to
quit his daytime job and make games full time.

So to get to the point yes a lot of the more successful game
developers like ESP had lots of money to start with. Although, they
did make some money off of the games the funding for the games didn't
all come through sales. Like any other business it took a fair amount
of personal startup capital to get going.

Cheers!


On 12/18/14, Michael Gauler michael.gau...@gmx.de wrote:
 That's actually sad in so many levels.
 First is of course the problems with the high unemployment rates you
 mentioned.
 But what I'd like to know is if there is an actual estimation on how many
 blind or visually impaired people are actually in the USA and how many of
 them are interested in games and not how many of them could afford them.

 On the other hand, ESP Soft and later Draconis made more than one paid
 title.
 Either the people behind said games had lots of money or they earned lots of

 it through their sales.
 If their games were not a success on the small market, we wouldn't have seen

 more games from them and I think that Monkey Business was their most complex

 game so far.
 It seems that however small the market might be, that you still can make
 money through it, if not, all paid games wouldn't be here anymore.


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Re: [Audyssey] About pc games

2014-12-18 Thread Bryan Peterson
Very true. You'd certainly want to have a primary income to fall back on 
while you're working on your games.




Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul,
Ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
-Original Message- 
From: Thomas Ward

Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2014 9:56 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About pc games

Hi Michael,

I'm not sure about actual figures on how many blind people there are
in the USA that are interested in games since that kind of information
often gets excluded from surveys. Plus since a lot of blind computer
users in the US often get their computers through government sponsored
state agencies many of them are afraid to install games and other
recreational software on their PC. I've met my fair share of blind
computer users who were specifically told by their counselor that
their computer was a tool for work, school, etc and not to install
games and other software on it. Since they are afraid of getting in
trouble even though they might want games they won't risk it. So one
thing we face as game developers is the paradigm that computers are
only to be used for work and they can happily be used for both
regardless of what some state agency says.

As for making money of accessible games the issue isn't that one can
not make money off it. Obviously, ESP, Draconis, GMA, BSC Games, and
others all made money off of making accessible games for the blind.
The issue is one can't making a living wage off of developing games
for the blind full time. They have to find some other way to make
money to supplement the income from the games, because making and
selling accessible games aren't enough in of itself.

You mentioned ESP. At the time all the ESP games were originally
created they were developed by a man named James North. Unlike most
audio game developers James North was sighted and had a regular 9 to 5
job. He wrote games like Alien Outback, Monkey Business, DynaMan, and
ESP Pinball in his spare time and made money off of them. While I'm
sure James made a few thousand off those games it wasn't enough to
quit his daytime job and make games full time.

So to get to the point yes a lot of the more successful game
developers like ESP had lots of money to start with. Although, they
did make some money off of the games the funding for the games didn't
all come through sales. Like any other business it took a fair amount
of personal startup capital to get going.

Cheers!


On 12/18/14, Michael Gauler michael.gau...@gmx.de wrote:

That's actually sad in so many levels.
First is of course the problems with the high unemployment rates you
mentioned.
But what I'd like to know is if there is an actual estimation on how many
blind or visually impaired people are actually in the USA and how many of
them are interested in games and not how many of them could afford them.

On the other hand, ESP Soft and later Draconis made more than one paid
title.
Either the people behind said games had lots of money or they earned lots 
of


it through their sales.
If their games were not a success on the small market, we wouldn't have 
seen


more games from them and I think that Monkey Business was their most 
complex


game so far.
It seems that however small the market might be, that you still can make
money through it, if not, all paid games wouldn't be here anymore.


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Re: [Audyssey] About pc games

2014-12-18 Thread Lisa Hayes

iNdeed you would need another source of income.
Lisa Hayes




www.nutrimetics.com.au/lisahayes

- Original Message - 
From: Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 4:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About pc games


Very true. You'd certainly want to have a primary income to fall back on
while you're working on your games.



Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul,
Ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
-Original Message- 
From: Thomas Ward

Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2014 9:56 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About pc games

Hi Michael,

I'm not sure about actual figures on how many blind people there are
in the USA that are interested in games since that kind of information
often gets excluded from surveys. Plus since a lot of blind computer
users in the US often get their computers through government sponsored
state agencies many of them are afraid to install games and other
recreational software on their PC. I've met my fair share of blind
computer users who were specifically told by their counselor that
their computer was a tool for work, school, etc and not to install
games and other software on it. Since they are afraid of getting in
trouble even though they might want games they won't risk it. So one
thing we face as game developers is the paradigm that computers are
only to be used for work and they can happily be used for both
regardless of what some state agency says.

As for making money of accessible games the issue isn't that one can
not make money off it. Obviously, ESP, Draconis, GMA, BSC Games, and
others all made money off of making accessible games for the blind.
The issue is one can't making a living wage off of developing games
for the blind full time. They have to find some other way to make
money to supplement the income from the games, because making and
selling accessible games aren't enough in of itself.

You mentioned ESP. At the time all the ESP games were originally
created they were developed by a man named James North. Unlike most
audio game developers James North was sighted and had a regular 9 to 5
job. He wrote games like Alien Outback, Monkey Business, DynaMan, and
ESP Pinball in his spare time and made money off of them. While I'm
sure James made a few thousand off those games it wasn't enough to
quit his daytime job and make games full time.

So to get to the point yes a lot of the more successful game
developers like ESP had lots of money to start with. Although, they
did make some money off of the games the funding for the games didn't
all come through sales. Like any other business it took a fair amount
of personal startup capital to get going.

Cheers!


On 12/18/14, Michael Gauler michael.gau...@gmx.de wrote:

That's actually sad in so many levels.
First is of course the problems with the high unemployment rates you
mentioned.
But what I'd like to know is if there is an actual estimation on how many
blind or visually impaired people are actually in the USA and how many of
them are interested in games and not how many of them could afford them.

On the other hand, ESP Soft and later Draconis made more than one paid
title.
Either the people behind said games had lots of money or they earned lots 
of


it through their sales.
If their games were not a success on the small market, we wouldn't have 
seen


more games from them and I think that Monkey Business was their most 
complex


game so far.
It seems that however small the market might be, that you still can make
money through it, if not, all paid games wouldn't be here anymore.


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If 

Re: [Audyssey] About pc games

2014-12-18 Thread shaun everiss

that would rock jacob if you could get something like that dusted off.
Right now I am still testing with reality gaming, but to be honest I 
hope to be able to drop that down soon.
The current online game is due to go live soon, and that means I can 
actually take a bit of a back seat if more are active I can focus on 
other projects in reality gaming and reality software, and other things.
Ofcause next year is a big year, personal health, house modifications 
and family are big parts of it.

But there will be time to continue with tests.

At 08:59 a.m. 18/12/2014, you wrote:

Thomas/Dark,

One of my holiday time plans this year is to rework my mapData, 
simple role-playing engine, which I slapped together using python, 
since while I originally used it as one of my forms of 
self-introduction to python quite a while ago, I have moved a lot 
farther on - I am nowadays actually working on an almost fully 
professional basis as a python programmer - among a couple of other 
platforms/languages.


Stay well

Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
...Roger Wilco wants to welcome you, to the space janitor's closet...

- Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2014 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About pc games



Hi Dark,

Possibly. Of course, if the game itself is written in a fairly easy
language like Python to begin with there wouldn't be any need for the
game to be written in any specific RPG creation tool. Just import the
required Python classes and write your adventure. I see no reason why
someone couldn't create a version of Eamon in Python.

I think one reason Eamon itself was written in Basic was for the fact
that it was a common enough language at the time and was easy enough
to anyone could learn and use it. It would have been a different story
if Eamon had been written in C++ or something like that. Being written
in Basic anyone could modify the game code and add adventures. I do
feel something like Python could possibly fulfill that requirement
today.


Cheers!



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Re: [Audyssey] About pc games

2014-12-18 Thread Jeremy Kaldobsky
Michael, I would agree with you that even though a market is small, there is at 
least a chance to make some money.
  I personally found this out by accident!  Swamp had been free for years and I 
only resorted to paid accounts when I hit the end of my proverbial rope with 
security issues.  I just couldn't waste any more time trying to keep people out 
who could just find new ways to come back using new free accounts.  Giving each 
account even a very small money requirement makes all of the difference, 
because they can't really be anonymous anymore.  Keeping people out got a whole 
lot easier, plus people don't find it so much fun to hack when they actually 
lose their money whenever I kick them out, Haha!

    I made about $12,000 from Swamp, which is about $10,000 more than I was 
really expecting, ROFL!  So needless to say, I was, and still am very excited 
about that!  So it is true that you can make some pretty good money, but as 
Thomas said, it is not enough to live off of.  I originally built the game just 
to create something people would enjoy (which is why it was free), but we can't 
expect that developers will do that.  I am fortunate enough to have a job that 
pays my bills, so I had the luxury of making games purely for the enjoyment of 
the art.
    Many here have already said that life gets in the way for developers.  I 
agree with them 100%!  This time of year is my busy season and I am really 
struggling to work on the code I need to be doing.  I wanted to have a Swamp 
update done in early October, and here it is midway through December and I'm 
still not finished.  Even when I'm really into a groove and game code is 
pouring out of my head like a waterfall, the clock will say I have to go to 
work.  When I am back home I am usually too exhausted to pick up where I left 
off, and it ends up being a whole day I couldn't spend coding.  Then of course 
there are days when I just don't feel like coding and can't get myself to do 
anything productive, even if I happen to have the free time to do so.
- Aprone
  From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
Hi Michael,

I'm not sure about actual figures on how many blind people there are
in the USA that are interested in games since that kind of information
often gets excluded from surveys. Plus since a lot of blind computer
users in the US often get their computers through government sponsored
state agencies many of them are afraid to install games and other
recreational software on their PC. I've met my fair share of blind
computer users who were specifically told by their counselor that
their computer was a tool for work, school, etc and not to install
games and other software on it. Since they are afraid of getting in
trouble even though they might want games they won't risk it. So one
thing we face as game developers is the paradigm that computers are
only to be used for work and they can happily be used for both
regardless of what some state agency says.

As for making money of accessible games the issue isn't that one can
not make money off it. Obviously, ESP, Draconis, GMA, BSC Games, and
others all made money off of making accessible games for the blind.
The issue is one can't making a living wage off of developing games
for the blind full time. They have to find some other way to make
money to supplement the income from the games, because making and
selling accessible games aren't enough in of itself.

You mentioned ESP. At the time all the ESP games were originally
created they were developed by a man named James North. Unlike most
audio game developers James North was sighted and had a regular 9 to 5
job. He wrote games like Alien Outback, Monkey Business, DynaMan, and
ESP Pinball in his spare time and made money off of them. While I'm
sure James made a few thousand off those games it wasn't enough to
quit his daytime job and make games full time.

So to get to the point yes a lot of the more successful game
developers like ESP had lots of money to start with. Although, they
did make some money off of the games the funding for the games didn't
all come through sales. Like any other business it took a fair amount
of personal startup capital to get going.

Cheers!

  
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Re: [Audyssey] audio games popularity

2014-12-18 Thread shaun everiss
I would also be willing if the game supported paypal to donate 40 
bucks towards it.


At 03:49 p.m. 17/12/2014, you wrote:

I would donate $30 or $40 towards it. I'll have the money in January 2015.

On 12/16/2014 5:17 PM, Michael Gauler wrote:

That's actually sad.
Not that Alter Aeon is a big world of course.
But if such things work as an online game shouldn't there be a 
developer or a group of them who think that it is time to do 
something like this as an audio game?
I mean, if you start today with game development you won't do such 
a big thing alone.
But if you are there in your tenth year as an active member of the 
audio game developing group, then surely it could be possible.
And you can't tell me that such a project would be totally unwanted 
among the players and the community if it were to be properly made.


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Re: [Audyssey] About pc games

2014-12-18 Thread Keith S
I think you both make points.  Would it be nice to have more games to choose 
from as a blind person?  Yes, of course.  But Creators of assistive tech 
including games, do not make a lot of money, due to our numbers (the blind) 
being so low compared to the sighted community.  The sighted want more graphics 
and realistic visuals, and we blind want clear text or sound effects.  So, it's 
kind of a catch 22 when it comes to mainstream designers creating games the 
blind can play along sides the sighted.

Keith
  - Original Message - 
  From: Cara Quinn 
  To: Gamers Discussion list 
  Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2014 6:53 PM
  Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About pc games


  wow!

  How did we get to family values?

  Do you not think that there were no merchants in the 16th century? People did 
not get goods and services for free you know, even then. :)

  As for morality, as a blind individual, you might have found yourself locked 
away somewhere (or worse) because of people's views of the disabled back then. 
That's not much morality in my book.

  Cheers!

  Cara
  On Dec 16, 2014, at 8:17 PM, Josh k joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote:

  they develop for the money that's it. they could care less whether disabled 
folks can play their games. sometimes I wish I had a time machine and could go 
back to the 1500s or so. maybe we did not have technology but we had our 
morality and family values.

  On 12/16/2014 7:06 PM, Cara Quinn wrote:
   Michael,
   
   Again, excellent points. Let me ask you (and the list) a simple question.
   
   Why do mainstream developers develop?
   
   Cheers!
   
   Cara
   ---
   iOS design and development - LookTel.com
   ---
   View my Online Portfolio at:
   
   http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn
   
   Follow me on Twitter!
   
   https://twitter.com/ModelCara
   
   On Dec 16, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Michael Gauler michael.gau...@gmx.de wrote:
   
   Hi Dark,
   The sad thing about all this is that all these new things we are 
currently getting in the audio game sector are partially old school compared to 
mainstream games.
   Seriously, I know of a mainstream game called Uprising 2.
   You wouldn't be able to play it withouth sighted assistance just to tell 
that first.
   What I want to say is the following:
   This game was a science fiction game where you have to fight in a war 
against an alien race.
   You had to go to over 30 planets and your task was to destroy all alien 
bases on the planet.
   The player controled a futuristic tank with different weapons.
   He could build factories to produce other units to call during battles to 
aid you.
   These units were computer controlled of course.
   I have the game CD.
   During these missions you gained more weapons and technology until you came 
to the final level.
   Every planet you had to go to was its own map file.
   On the game CD (it was small enough for one CD-Rom) you had the game, the 
full user manual as well as other documents.
   The game itself had three extra levels which were a really big ingame 
tutorial.
   But that was not all the CD contained.
   There was a level editor plus its own manual plus another file which 
contained the technical specifications for one of the four main files you need 
for level design.
   And there was one last document explaining the scripting language which you 
needed íf you wanted to create story events or define on what terms you won or 
lost a certain mission.
   This game let the user edit some but not all its files.
   It did not require any form of hardware based registrations, nor was the CD 
copy protected with the kind of copy protection which prevents legal use of the 
product because it is buggy.
   
   This title was released before the year 2000 and ran on Windows 98 systems 
without problems.
   
   This is just one example of what some games of the Windows 95-98 era could 
do.
   Or remember Doom and Quake.
   You could make your own levels and mods for them.
   
   And if you like RPGs you know what Final Fantasy is.
   That series goes back before PCs were common products.
   But I also knew of a Japanese Play Station game which was originally listed 
in the audiogames.net database.
   But up to now we had little in audio RPG titles and the two we have while 
impressive currently don't have official addons/expansions, nor do they support 
user created game content as far as I know.
   
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Re: [Audyssey] audio games popularity

2014-12-18 Thread shaun everiss
well the fact is with croud funding either through sommething like 
kickstarter or even paypal its possible if the project is good enough.

Ofcause you may have to buy it to after that but even so.

At 02:42 p.m. 17/12/2014, you wrote:
And let's not forget the blind i want everything for free and why 
should i pay for it attitude which is shameful, but about.

Lisa Hayes




www.nutrimetics.com.au/lisahayes

- Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2014 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] audio games popularity



Cara,

Once again well said. I think you just said everything I meant to say
in a simple and concise post.

Cheers!



On 12/16/14, Cara Quinn caraqu...@caraquinn.com wrote:

Michael,

Why on Earth would someone just decide that they want to spend ten years of
their life slaving over something which they will not only see no income
from, is incredibly time-consuming / intensive, consist of pretty much
out-of-date technology when it is finished, require massive maintenance /
updates ever-after, and will most likely foster criticism and flaming from
the community which it is meant for when it is finally done?

Now I'm not saying that there is no one for whom this type of project may be
appealing or be a passion, but this is probably not the sort of thing that
many people would choose to voluntarily take on.

Just my thoughts... Excellent topic BTW...

Cheers!

Cara
---
iOS design and development - LookTel.com
---
View my Online Portfolio at:

http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn

Follow me on Twitter!

https://twitter.com/ModelCara


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[Audyssey] braillemon

2014-12-18 Thread ishan dhami
Hello friends the game braillemon is not running in my win 8 laptop.
it is the script error can someone assist me?
Thanks
Ishan

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Re: [Audyssey] audio games popularity

2014-12-18 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Shaun,

Crowd funding can be a good way to initially fund a project throughout
the early stages of development as far as buying music, sounds, and
possibly for APIs and tools to create the project. However, if it is
to be a very complex project the initial income may not be enough to
sustain the project for months and years. That is one reason why
something open source might be the way to go for the kind of roll
playing game that people are asking for.

If the game is made open source in theory anyone could work on it,
update it, and create extra adventures and missions. That way it isn't
just one guy developing the game, and even if that developer drops out
of development due to burnout, life getting in the way, etc the source
is still there open to the public for someone else to carry the torch
further.

Cheers!


On 12/16/14, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote:
 well the fact is with croud funding either through sommething like
 kickstarter or even paypal its possible if the project is good enough.
 Ofcause you may have to buy it to after that but even so.

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Re: [Audyssey] audio games popularity

2014-12-18 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Shaun,

Well, before anyone begins donating money I think we should nail down
some details of what it is to be developed. I have read a lot of
messages which are more complaints than anything else that there isn't
enough complex audio games, that people want a roll playing game, but
no specific details as such. Perhaps I or someone else should start a
thread on trying to figure out exactly what it is the community wants
and see if we can draw up an outline rather than just approach this
without any direction or forethought.

Cheers!


On 12/16/14, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote:
 I would also be willing if the game supported paypal to donate 40
 bucks towards it.

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Re: [Audyssey] audio games popularity

2014-12-18 Thread Josh k

link for flipper and dos games.

https://www.sendspace.com/file/qsfgnl


On 12/18/2014 11:18 AM, Thomas Ward wrote:

Hi Michael,

I doubt it. Any time a mainstream game is made accessible it is
through a conscious effort on the part of the developer to make it
accessible to a screen reader. There aren't many mainstream developers
developing games for Mac, and those who do would have to be approached
individually about access improvements.

The other problem is emulation. One thing that make games for Mac
different from Windows is that many are developed using emulation
software like Cider which allows Windows games to be ported to Mac
without major changes in APIs and code. Problem is since the games are
being emulated that increases the problems with accessibility since
there isn't anything for the screen reader to lock onto and read. The
way VoiceOver works is it checks Mac's accessibility APIs for incoming
text etc, and if it doesn't see anything as far as VoiceOver is
concerned nothing exists. Since emulators like Cider do not transfer
onscreen information through the accessibility pipeline there is
nothing for VoiceOver to see.

So no. I don't see mainstream games for Mac being made accessible any
more than I would expect the average mainstream game for Windows to be
made accessible.

Cheers!


On 12/18/14, Michael Gauler michael.gau...@gmx.de wrote:

Such a community project might be a good idea.
And maybe something to bring the focus back to computer users.
While I don't have anything personal against mobile devices, we have or will

get some rather complex mobile (IOS) games in the near future.
But the sad thing about this that not even Mac users won't get anything
through this, since IOS and Mac are obviously two separate things.
But if Mac has more onboard accessibility features than Windows has, I
wonder if mainstream Mac games could be made accessible like some mainstream

IOS titles might be playable by blind or visually impaired users.


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Re: [Audyssey] audio games popularity

2014-12-18 Thread Lisa Hayes
i'd love a game based on the book, watership down, a good book and complex 
so the game would be one hell of a project i reckon.

Lisa Hayes




www.nutrimetics.com.au/lisahayes

- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 7:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] audio games popularity



Hi Shaun,

Well, before anyone begins donating money I think we should nail down
some details of what it is to be developed. I have read a lot of
messages which are more complaints than anything else that there isn't
enough complex audio games, that people want a roll playing game, but
no specific details as such. Perhaps I or someone else should start a
thread on trying to figure out exactly what it is the community wants
and see if we can draw up an outline rather than just approach this
without any direction or forethought.

Cheers!


On 12/16/14, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote:

I would also be willing if the game supported paypal to donate 40
bucks towards it.


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list,
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Re: [Audyssey] audio games popularity

2014-12-18 Thread valiant8086

Hi.
There is another viewpoint that nobody has mentioned yet, one that I'm 
pretty sure is one of the bigger problems.


The people who are really going nuts and creating amazing games with 
lots of mechanics, the ones who actually could take the community beyond 
what it knows, are creating a nice game or 3, then leaving the audio 
gaming community. Why is this? My guess would be because they have the 
skills they need to get a real paying job. I like what I'm working on, 
but if someone saw that and said oh wow I like your skillset, you should 
think about joining our company. Since you know this much it is obvious 
you can learn code. We'll train you to use our own language and you can 
write something we need done. If something like that happened to me, I 
would be hard pressed not to just drop the game I'm working on. Because 
while it is going to be a paid game, I don't look for it to make 
anywhere near enough money to pay for my time. I'm doing it for fun, the 
ability to play the game myself, the attention in the community, and 
what money I can get out of it.


But we are often jobless, have the idea to make games and sell them for 
a little cash to hopefully help mom and dad pay our bills, or what have 
you, and then because we are actually achieving these things, we then 
just naturally have some of what it takes to actually have a job, if I'm 
making any sense? I didn't do nearly as good a job explaining as I meant.


Basically the very fact that we might have a programmer in our community 
who can make great audiogames pretty much by definition means we have 
someone who won't be staying, at least not full time by any means.



Cheers, Sent with Thunderbird 24.6.0 portable
On 12/16/2014 7:22 PM, Thomas Ward wrote:

Hi Michael,

Well, as far as Justin goes there is no great mystery why he did what
he did. Justin made it pretty clear from the beginning he was
interested in making money off of his games, and rather than releasing
them as freeware he chose to sell his key generator in order to make
what money he could off the games before closing his doors. He didn't
have to do things that way, but he did it anyway.

In any case there is a few reasons why Liam, Justin, Dan, etc didn't
just write simple board and card games. One reason is they all had
interests in more arcade type games, and chose to write something a
bit more complex than just another card or board game. Another is Dan
and Justin wrote most of there games while they were in college,
receiving professional training  , where the majority of audio game
developers are self-taught. Finally, I imagine they had the time to
devote to developing the games when they wrote their games.

This is not meant to be taken as a criticism, but it seems from your
posts that you are grossly underestimating the time and effort that
goes into creating an  audio game. You appear to be under the false
assumption that people have the time, money, skills, and resources to
create anything they want to. Such isn't the case. Real life can and
does get in the way, and if you think it is so easy I think you should
give it a try. Get yourself a book on programming and write yourself a
few complex games. I think once you do a lot of your questions will go
away from experience.

Cheers!



On 12/16/14, Michael Gauler michael.gau...@gmx.de wrote:

Hi Thomas,
I know that a beginner won't do highly complex games from the start.
That is true.
However the ones like Justin or Liam or Dan had some rather complex games
compared to simple board or card games.
Look at the unlockables in Judgment Day for example.
But after that you heard not much from Liam in terms of big projects for
whatever reasons.
The last commercial project was Super Egg Hunt Plus.
But if he supposedly still sells it, then there is at least in theory no
reason to drop Super Liam or Judgment day.

I know that real life can get in the way and that this might be the reason
why we had some people leave permanently.
But this did for example not explain why Justin did not make his originally

paid games free if he was not going to give further key replacements to
previous customers.
While his final special offer was good for me personally, since I didn't buy

his games up to this point, for people who already owned one or two games it

was not an ideal option.
And if he generally said he wanted to drop all support for these titles,
then he could simply have released his unlock code generator like Dan did
with his legal unlock patches and no one would have screamed foul play or
something similar.

And of course you are right when you say people born blind might not know
the difference between Entombed or Warcraft.

However there are such things as anime, movies, TV shows or fantasy books.
And such large fictional universes nmight not be used in audio game
development due to copyright issues, creating a similar setting than
described in such media might be legally possible.
You atempted the same in basing 

Re: [Audyssey] audio games popularity

2014-12-18 Thread Thomas Ward
Hello Josh,

What is the copyright status on these files?

It is not permissible to just upload and share any old program you
want to unless you either own the copyright on it or know that the
copyright has lapsed. So it would be important to get an exact status
on the copyright of Flipper and the Dos games you uploaded here.

Cheers!


On 12/18/14, Josh k joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote:
 link for flipper and dos games.

 https://www.sendspace.com/file/qsfgnl


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Re: [Audyssey] About pc games

2014-12-18 Thread Nick Adamson
Speaking from experience on this one. 
For me to spend 8 hours a day at work programming, to come home and do family 
things and then spend the evenings coding a game can be hard going. It also has 
to be a game that has really grabbed my interest as was the case with dotris 
and Park Boss. 
A number of times I've sat down with an idea for a couple of nights and then 
lost interest. 
This is why I'd probably not join a collaborative project, I'd be worried that 
fitting development around the day job and family would be letting the team 
down or putting too much presure on myself. 
Just some more thoughts. 
Nick



 On 18 Dec 2014, at 19:48, Lisa Hayes lhay...@internode.on.net wrote:
 
 iNdeed you would need another source of income.
 Lisa Hayes
 
 
 
 
 www.nutrimetics.com.au/lisahayes
 
 - Original Message - From: Bryan Peterson 
 bpeterson2...@cableone.net
 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 4:18 AM
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About pc games
 
 
 Very true. You'd certainly want to have a primary income to fall back on
 while you're working on your games.
 
 
 
 Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul,
 Ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
 -Original Message- From: Thomas Ward
 Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2014 9:56 AM
 To: Gamers Discussion list
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About pc games
 
 Hi Michael,
 
 I'm not sure about actual figures on how many blind people there are
 in the USA that are interested in games since that kind of information
 often gets excluded from surveys. Plus since a lot of blind computer
 users in the US often get their computers through government sponsored
 state agencies many of them are afraid to install games and other
 recreational software on their PC. I've met my fair share of blind
 computer users who were specifically told by their counselor that
 their computer was a tool for work, school, etc and not to install
 games and other software on it. Since they are afraid of getting in
 trouble even though they might want games they won't risk it. So one
 thing we face as game developers is the paradigm that computers are
 only to be used for work and they can happily be used for both
 regardless of what some state agency says.
 
 As for making money of accessible games the issue isn't that one can
 not make money off it. Obviously, ESP, Draconis, GMA, BSC Games, and
 others all made money off of making accessible games for the blind.
 The issue is one can't making a living wage off of developing games
 for the blind full time. They have to find some other way to make
 money to supplement the income from the games, because making and
 selling accessible games aren't enough in of itself.
 
 You mentioned ESP. At the time all the ESP games were originally
 created they were developed by a man named James North. Unlike most
 audio game developers James North was sighted and had a regular 9 to 5
 job. He wrote games like Alien Outback, Monkey Business, DynaMan, and
 ESP Pinball in his spare time and made money off of them. While I'm
 sure James made a few thousand off those games it wasn't enough to
 quit his daytime job and make games full time.
 
 So to get to the point yes a lot of the more successful game
 developers like ESP had lots of money to start with. Although, they
 did make some money off of the games the funding for the games didn't
 all come through sales. Like any other business it took a fair amount
 of personal startup capital to get going.
 
 Cheers!
 
 
 On 12/18/14, Michael Gauler michael.gau...@gmx.de wrote:
 That's actually sad in so many levels.
 First is of course the problems with the high unemployment rates you
 mentioned.
 But what I'd like to know is if there is an actual estimation on how many
 blind or visually impaired people are actually in the USA and how many of
 them are interested in games and not how many of them could afford them.
 
 On the other hand, ESP Soft and later Draconis made more than one paid
 title.
 Either the people behind said games had lots of money or they earned lots of
 
 it through their sales.
 If their games were not a success on the small market, we wouldn't have seen
 
 more games from them and I think that Monkey Business was their most complex
 
 game so far.
 It seems that however small the market might be, that you still can make
 money through it, if not, all paid games wouldn't be here anymore.
 
 
 ---
 Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
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 You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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 If you want 

Re: [Audyssey] About pc games

2014-12-18 Thread Cara Quinn
Nick and Jeremy,

Well said! I really love my work with LookTel. After a particularly annoying 
bug search / destroy mission though, pretty much the last thing I want to do is 
spend the evening coding some more! lol!

As it is, I cannot even give enough time to Draconis either. So even though I 
may have some game ideas that I may personally really like, it really takes 
that special set of circumstances for me to really want to work with that for a 
while.

I wish there were many more hours in the day and that sleep was an option and 
not a necessity! lol!

Cheers!

Cara
---
iOS design and development - LookTel.com
---
View my Online Portfolio at:

http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn

Follow me on Twitter!

https://twitter.com/ModelCara

On Dec 18, 2014, at 4:17 PM, Nick Adamson n...@ndadamson.com wrote:

Speaking from experience on this one. 
For me to spend 8 hours a day at work programming, to come home and do family 
things and then spend the evenings coding a game can be hard going. It also has 
to be a game that has really grabbed my interest as was the case with dotris 
and Park Boss. 
A number of times I've sat down with an idea for a couple of nights and then 
lost interest. 
This is why I'd probably not join a collaborative project, I'd be worried that 
fitting development around the day job and family would be letting the team 
down or putting too much presure on myself. 
Just some more thoughts. 
Nick



 On 18 Dec 2014, at 19:48, Lisa Hayes lhay...@internode.on.net wrote:
 
 iNdeed you would need another source of income.
 Lisa Hayes
 
 
 
 
 www.nutrimetics.com.au/lisahayes
 
 - Original Message - From: Bryan Peterson 
 bpeterson2...@cableone.net
 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 4:18 AM
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About pc games
 
 
 Very true. You'd certainly want to have a primary income to fall back on
 while you're working on your games.
 
 
 
 Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul,
 Ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
 -Original Message- From: Thomas Ward
 Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2014 9:56 AM
 To: Gamers Discussion list
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About pc games
 
 Hi Michael,
 
 I'm not sure about actual figures on how many blind people there are
 in the USA that are interested in games since that kind of information
 often gets excluded from surveys. Plus since a lot of blind computer
 users in the US often get their computers through government sponsored
 state agencies many of them are afraid to install games and other
 recreational software on their PC. I've met my fair share of blind
 computer users who were specifically told by their counselor that
 their computer was a tool for work, school, etc and not to install
 games and other software on it. Since they are afraid of getting in
 trouble even though they might want games they won't risk it. So one
 thing we face as game developers is the paradigm that computers are
 only to be used for work and they can happily be used for both
 regardless of what some state agency says.
 
 As for making money of accessible games the issue isn't that one can
 not make money off it. Obviously, ESP, Draconis, GMA, BSC Games, and
 others all made money off of making accessible games for the blind.
 The issue is one can't making a living wage off of developing games
 for the blind full time. They have to find some other way to make
 money to supplement the income from the games, because making and
 selling accessible games aren't enough in of itself.
 
 You mentioned ESP. At the time all the ESP games were originally
 created they were developed by a man named James North. Unlike most
 audio game developers James North was sighted and had a regular 9 to 5
 job. He wrote games like Alien Outback, Monkey Business, DynaMan, and
 ESP Pinball in his spare time and made money off of them. While I'm
 sure James made a few thousand off those games it wasn't enough to
 quit his daytime job and make games full time.
 
 So to get to the point yes a lot of the more successful game
 developers like ESP had lots of money to start with. Although, they
 did make some money off of the games the funding for the games didn't
 all come through sales. Like any other business it took a fair amount
 of personal startup capital to get going.
 
 Cheers!
 
 
 On 12/18/14, Michael Gauler michael.gau...@gmx.de wrote:
 That's actually sad in so many levels.
 First is of course the problems with the high unemployment rates you
 mentioned.
 But what I'd like to know is if there is an actual estimation on how many
 blind or visually impaired people are actually in the USA and how many of
 them are interested in games and not how many of them could afford them.
 
 On the other hand, ESP Soft and later Draconis made more than one paid
 title.
 Either the people behind said games had lots of money or they earned lots of
 
 it through their sales.
 If their games were not a success on the small market, 

Re: [Audyssey] audio games popularity

2014-12-18 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Valiant,

That is true. The people who have the skills to make really high
quality audio games don't stay around long because if they have the
skills to make high quality audio games they probably have the skills
required to get a decent paying job in that field. Therefore making
games for free or even commercially for the blind isn't in their long
term best interests. We have seen this happen several times just over
the last decade or so.

Basically, it comes down to two things time and money. If there isn't
enough money in making audio games for the blind the person who has
the skills isn't going to take the time. Not when he or she can spend
that same amount of time working for a mainstream company and make
lots more money doing it. The little money made off of audio games
isn't really enough to pay for the developer's time, and therefore it
often comes down to doing it for the enjoyment of it.

Cheers!


On 12/18/14, valiant8086 valiant8...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi.
 There is another viewpoint that nobody has mentioned yet, one that I'm
 pretty sure is one of the bigger problems.

 The people who are really going nuts and creating amazing games with
 lots of mechanics, the ones who actually could take the community beyond
 what it knows, are creating a nice game or 3, then leaving the audio
 gaming community. Why is this? My guess would be because they have the
 skills they need to get a real paying job. I like what I'm working on,
 but if someone saw that and said oh wow I like your skillset, you should
 think about joining our company. Since you know this much it is obvious
 you can learn code. We'll train you to use our own language and you can
 write something we need done. If something like that happened to me, I
 would be hard pressed not to just drop the game I'm working on. Because
 while it is going to be a paid game, I don't look for it to make
 anywhere near enough money to pay for my time. I'm doing it for fun, the
 ability to play the game myself, the attention in the community, and
 what money I can get out of it.

 But we are often jobless, have the idea to make games and sell them for
 a little cash to hopefully help mom and dad pay our bills, or what have
 you, and then because we are actually achieving these things, we then
 just naturally have some of what it takes to actually have a job, if I'm
 making any sense? I didn't do nearly as good a job explaining as I meant.

 Basically the very fact that we might have a programmer in our community
 who can make great audiogames pretty much by definition means we have
 someone who won't be staying, at least not full time by any means.


 Cheers, Sent with Thunderbird 24.6.0 portable

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[Audyssey] Game Development, Accessibility, and a Future worth Fighting For

2014-12-18 Thread Dakotah Rickard
We have had much discussion, of late, on a topic we usually discuss
thoroughly about every year, sometimes every few months. That topic is
game development, its costs, its profits, its hazards. We resort to
comparisons with the major game studios, comparisons with major
mainstream games we have encountered or heard about. I have had,
finally, a clarifying thought, and I intend that it reach all of the
blind players and developers of audiogames that it possibly can.
I have two discrete, separate topics. First, the fact that developers
of games for the blind, by extension audiogames, by extension games in
general don't make much money from it. Second, we are a niche market,
at this point, primarily due to lack of awareness, lack of exposure,
and lack of confidence.
First, Developers of audio games don't make living wages. However,
neither do developers of most of the games out there for sighted
folks.
Mojang, the people who made the popular indie game Minecraft, may be
rolling in the dosh, but they're a remarkable, phenomenal story,
I'm not saying that you have to work for a triple A publisher:
Electronic Arts, etc. to make good money, but what I am saying is that
we should remember that we're indie developers, that we play indie
games. When games for the blind in general, and audiogames in
specific, came to be a thing, Indie wasn't a word at all associated
with games. Now, especially because of the ease of entrance into the
mobile space and the presence of tremendous online markets for PC and
Mac, most of the games out there are Indie games. For people
unfamiliar with the term, this means they are developed by an
independent individual or small team. They aren't made by huge
organizations, giant studios, or wealthy individuals. I think that
this is a necessary perspective when considering how much we might
make by developing software for blind gamers.

The second part of this is the new revolution in the mainstream gaming
world. Game audio in general is a lot more useful and a lot more
important than it was. I couldn't play popular Bioware title Mass
Effect in its entirety, but I could play one of the minigames,
scanning planets, perfectly well. I could identify, with apparently
startling accuracy, direction and distance of enemies. I can locate
enemies and follow my dog around in Fable II, a mainstream roleplaying
game made by Microsoft/Lionhead Studios. Many games now offer, or
rely, on audial cues to tell players something important is coming.
This means we are approaching a point of choice. We are approaching an
important crossroads. If we stop treating ourselves as a niche in
which nobody is interested and start trying to actually get our games
out there, maybe we can become a little more mainstream ourselves.
I'm not just being idealistic. Do you guys think that every player of
Swamp is blind? I and my friends haven't played in a while, but I used
to get my sighted wife, and two of my sighted best friends involved
with that one. We had such good times. The reason is that Swamp was
immersive. It wasn't riddled with beeps, boops, clicks, and other
obvious blindness related stuff.
What about the Somethin' Else games: Papa Sangre 1 and 2, The
Nightjar, and Audio Defense? Are those blind games or are they audio
games? Is every player blind or can every player hear?
Even Entombed, an obvious game which is fantastic by our standards but
rather lackluster by the standards of mainstream games of ten years
ago or many indie games today, was enjoyed by several of my friends.
I suggest that we are a niche market, at least in part, because we're
used to being a niche market. How many games out there run with
absolutely awful graphics, and sighted people love them. Steam,
Valve's online game database and platform, contains truly thousands of
games like these. Even popular entries from the well-known developers
Choice of Games are now on Steam, and those are so old school it's
cool!
As a side note, I have to offer a little advice, especially when
considering the demographics of the supposedly niche market we are in.
We have to stop comparing our works to major titles like Final
Fantasy. We also have to stop pricing our games like them. When an
Indie developer can sell their so so RPG for $5 to $10, we can't
justify tripling that. Why? Because our developers are also indie
developers. If we continue to expect to be a niche, then that's all
we'll be. Instead of trying to convince fat cats and major studios
that our few thousand blind buyers would make it worth their time to
put in the few tweaks necessary to make their multi-million dollar
games playable, let's start by asking the indie developers, the folks
who, like our own gamemakers, are hoping for a few extra buys to make
Christmas just a bit more special, to change their mindset for future
projects. Let's get the word out there about our games, try to get
noticed, try to advocate for something that will actually bridge the
gap.
Back briefly to game audio, and 

Re: [Audyssey] audio games popularity

2014-12-18 Thread Jason Allen
Hello,

In regards to Entombed - I always wanted to make it modable, but the
architecture would not allow it. It would be easier to re-write the entire
game. Although Entombed didn't earn a lot compared to the effort (2 years
or so of development), I think I could make a similarly scoped game today
faster due to my experience. It's always been my intention to create a
sequel, and I've made a start on the foundation. The idea is to make it as
modifyable as possible. All aspects of the game could be changed by the
community. I think the game would take on a life of its own then and last
longer than Entombed has.

When you talk about developers leaving the community, I'm not one of them.
I'm just a very quiet lurker and I still have a keen interest in making
games. The biggest problem I have now is lack of resources. I have a few
popular mobile games and they demand a lot of time and effort.

Cheers!
Jason

On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 10:56 AM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Hi Valiant,

 That is true. The people who have the skills to make really high
 quality audio games don't stay around long because if they have the
 skills to make high quality audio games they probably have the skills
 required to get a decent paying job in that field. Therefore making
 games for free or even commercially for the blind isn't in their long
 term best interests. We have seen this happen several times just over
 the last decade or so.

 Basically, it comes down to two things time and money. If there isn't
 enough money in making audio games for the blind the person who has
 the skills isn't going to take the time. Not when he or she can spend
 that same amount of time working for a mainstream company and make
 lots more money doing it. The little money made off of audio games
 isn't really enough to pay for the developer's time, and therefore it
 often comes down to doing it for the enjoyment of it.

 Cheers!


 On 12/18/14, valiant8086 valiant8...@gmail.com wrote:
  Hi.
  There is another viewpoint that nobody has mentioned yet, one that I'm
  pretty sure is one of the bigger problems.
 
  The people who are really going nuts and creating amazing games with
  lots of mechanics, the ones who actually could take the community beyond
  what it knows, are creating a nice game or 3, then leaving the audio
  gaming community. Why is this? My guess would be because they have the
  skills they need to get a real paying job. I like what I'm working on,
  but if someone saw that and said oh wow I like your skillset, you should
  think about joining our company. Since you know this much it is obvious
  you can learn code. We'll train you to use our own language and you can
  write something we need done. If something like that happened to me, I
  would be hard pressed not to just drop the game I'm working on. Because
  while it is going to be a paid game, I don't look for it to make
  anywhere near enough money to pay for my time. I'm doing it for fun, the
  ability to play the game myself, the attention in the community, and
  what money I can get out of it.
 
  But we are often jobless, have the idea to make games and sell them for
  a little cash to hopefully help mom and dad pay our bills, or what have
  you, and then because we are actually achieving these things, we then
  just naturally have some of what it takes to actually have a job, if I'm
  making any sense? I didn't do nearly as good a job explaining as I meant.
 
  Basically the very fact that we might have a programmer in our community
  who can make great audiogames pretty much by definition means we have
  someone who won't be staying, at least not full time by any means.
 
 
  Cheers, Sent with Thunderbird 24.6.0 portable

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Re: [Audyssey] audio games popularity

2014-12-18 Thread joseph weakland
Hello Jason what mobile games did you write?

-Original Message-
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Jason Allen
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2014 7:25 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] audio games popularity

Hello,

In regards to Entombed - I always wanted to make it modable, but the
architecture would not allow it. It would be easier to re-write the entire
game. Although Entombed didn't earn a lot compared to the effort (2 years or
so of development), I think I could make a similarly scoped game today
faster due to my experience. It's always been my intention to create a
sequel, and I've made a start on the foundation. The idea is to make it as
modifyable as possible. All aspects of the game could be changed by the
community. I think the game would take on a life of its own then and last
longer than Entombed has.

When you talk about developers leaving the community, I'm not one of them.
I'm just a very quiet lurker and I still have a keen interest in making
games. The biggest problem I have now is lack of resources. I have a few
popular mobile games and they demand a lot of time and effort.

Cheers!
Jason

On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 10:56 AM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Hi Valiant,

 That is true. The people who have the skills to make really high 
 quality audio games don't stay around long because if they have the 
 skills to make high quality audio games they probably have the skills 
 required to get a decent paying job in that field. Therefore making 
 games for free or even commercially for the blind isn't in their long 
 term best interests. We have seen this happen several times just over 
 the last decade or so.

 Basically, it comes down to two things time and money. If there isn't 
 enough money in making audio games for the blind the person who has 
 the skills isn't going to take the time. Not when he or she can spend 
 that same amount of time working for a mainstream company and make 
 lots more money doing it. The little money made off of audio games 
 isn't really enough to pay for the developer's time, and therefore it 
 often comes down to doing it for the enjoyment of it.

 Cheers!


 On 12/18/14, valiant8086 valiant8...@gmail.com wrote:
  Hi.
  There is another viewpoint that nobody has mentioned yet, one that 
  I'm pretty sure is one of the bigger problems.
 
  The people who are really going nuts and creating amazing games with 
  lots of mechanics, the ones who actually could take the community 
  beyond what it knows, are creating a nice game or 3, then leaving 
  the audio gaming community. Why is this? My guess would be because 
  they have the skills they need to get a real paying job. I like what 
  I'm working on, but if someone saw that and said oh wow I like your 
  skillset, you should think about joining our company. Since you know 
  this much it is obvious you can learn code. We'll train you to use 
  our own language and you can write something we need done. If 
  something like that happened to me, I would be hard pressed not to 
  just drop the game I'm working on. Because while it is going to be a 
  paid game, I don't look for it to make anywhere near enough money to 
  pay for my time. I'm doing it for fun, the ability to play the game 
  myself, the attention in the community, and what money I can get out of
it.
 
  But we are often jobless, have the idea to make games and sell them 
  for a little cash to hopefully help mom and dad pay our bills, or 
  what have you, and then because we are actually achieving these 
  things, we then just naturally have some of what it takes to 
  actually have a job, if I'm making any sense? I didn't do nearly as good
a job explaining as I meant.
 
  Basically the very fact that we might have a programmer in our 
  community who can make great audiogames pretty much by definition 
  means we have someone who won't be staying, at least not full time by
any means.
 
 
  Cheers, Sent with Thunderbird 24.6.0 portable

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[Audyssey] dos stuff

2014-12-18 Thread Josh k

hi  i sent this to oms development.

I am trying to use old dos applications with dosbox. I am blind. but 
tinyTalk is very very slow with the sb-talker old software speech for 
dos. Could you please make some sort of interface so tinyTalk and other 
screen readers for DOS could have fast responsive speech? how about 
this. make a speech server app which would install a special dosbox, 
make it accessible with ASAP or flipper or TinyTalk a server runs in the 
background emulating an accent on a virtual comPort.


thanks

Josh


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[Audyssey] tiny talk in dos

2014-12-18 Thread Josh k
hey tiny talk with sound blaster isn't working. and I can't get speech 
thing working either. how can I use old dos stuff like wordperfect 5.1 
and lotus 123?



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Re: [Audyssey] audio games popularity

2014-12-18 Thread Phil Vlasak

Hi Thomas,
One example is Carl Mickla, who graduated from college with a degree in 
computer programming in 1995.
He released his Any Night Football game in September 1995 written in C plus 
plus for DOS.
In September 2001, Carl Mickla got a job with IBM and moved to Poughkeepsie, 
New York.
In the six years he worked with me  at PCS games he programmed 8 Windows 
games that were sold on CD and   the following 18 DOS games that were sold 
on floppy disk:

Arthur's Quest.
A 2 Z Key Search.
Breakout.
Cops.
Fox And Hounds.
Haze Maze.
Mind Puzzles.
Mobius Mountain.
Monopoly.
P C S Car Racing Circuit.
P C S Duck Hunt.
P C S Space Invaders.
Pack Man.
Panzers In North Africa.
Red Dragon Kick Boxing Challenge.
Shooting Range.
Snipe Hunt.
Tenpin Bowling.
Most of the 26 games were developed between 1996 and 2000 or about 6 per 
year and cost $30 to $40 which would be about $60 to $80 today based on 
inflation.

Back in our peak year of 1999, we also sold games for
Harry Hollingsworth, Ivan G. Roelofs  and David Greenwood before he started 
GMA Games. None of these games were sold as downloads, only physical disks 
sold through Ann Morris Enterprises, A Division of Independent Living Aids, 
Inc.
I don't have the accurate total, but I think we sold about $20,000 in games 
that year, divided up between all the above people.
Carl stopped game development because he could earn three times that total 
by himself working at IBM.


Phil


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Re: [Audyssey] audio games popularity

2014-12-18 Thread Josh k
hi phil, I tried using dosbox and its not working for me. is there any 
way to use a dos screen reader anymore at all?


On 12/18/2014 10:02 PM, Phil Vlasak wrote:

Hi Thomas,
One example is Carl Mickla, who graduated from college with a degree 
in computer programming in 1995.
He released his Any Night Football game in September 1995 written in C 
plus plus for DOS.
In September 2001, Carl Mickla got a job with IBM and moved to 
Poughkeepsie, New York.
In the six years he worked with me  at PCS games he programmed 8 
Windows games that were sold on CD and   the following 18 DOS games 
that were sold on floppy disk:

Arthur's Quest.
A 2 Z Key Search.
Breakout.
Cops.
Fox And Hounds.
Haze Maze.
Mind Puzzles.
Mobius Mountain.
Monopoly.
P C S Car Racing Circuit.
P C S Duck Hunt.
P C S Space Invaders.
Pack Man.
Panzers In North Africa.
Red Dragon Kick Boxing Challenge.
Shooting Range.
Snipe Hunt.
Tenpin Bowling.
Most of the 26 games were developed between 1996 and 2000 or about 6 
per year and cost $30 to $40 which would be about $60 to $80 today 
based on inflation.

Back in our peak year of 1999, we also sold games for
Harry Hollingsworth, Ivan G. Roelofs  and David Greenwood before he 
started GMA Games. None of these games were sold as downloads, only 
physical disks sold through Ann Morris Enterprises, A Division of 
Independent Living Aids, Inc.
I don't have the accurate total, but I think we sold about $20,000 in 
games that year, divided up between all the above people.
Carl stopped game development because he could earn three times that 
total by himself working at IBM.


Phil


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Re: [Audyssey] audio games popularity

2014-12-18 Thread Phil Vlasak

Hi Josh,
I do not know any dos screen reader that works on today's computers and 
Windows.
Our DOS games were written for Windows 98 and the DOS that came with it. Our 
DOS games all required a hardware synthesizer like Echo DEC talk and Double 
Talk.
Our eight Windows games were all self voicing so required no synthesizer to 
play but did require one to install them.
I tried to play one of the Windows 98 games on my Windows Vista computer and 
it ran very poorly.
That is why I converted Pacman and Ten Pin bowling to true Windows games and 
hope to do more of them.

Phil
- Original Message - 
From: Josh k joshknnd1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2014 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] audio games popularity


hi phil, I tried using dosbox and its not working for me. is there any way 
to use a dos screen reader anymore at all?



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Re: [Audyssey] audio games popularity

2014-12-18 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Phil,

Thanks for the background history. I knew about Carl Mickla but not
the specifics. Your history and sales figures really helps contribute
to the discussion here about commercial audio games. I figured you
guys had made a decent amount of money off your Dos games, but wasn't
quite sure how much.

I'd say $20,000 sounds about right. After all that is only about 500
sales priced at $40 USD each. It is a fair amount of money for a
secondary income but certainly not enough for a living wage or to
consider as a primary source of income. Now days that is barely more
than the minimum wage here in the USA. So it is no wonder why Carl
left to work for IBM.

Cheers!


On 12/18/14, Phil Vlasak phi...@bex.net wrote:
 Hi Thomas,
 One example is Carl Mickla, who graduated from college with a degree in
 computer programming in 1995.
 He released his Any Night Football game in September 1995 written in C plus

 plus for DOS.
 In September 2001, Carl Mickla got a job with IBM and moved to Poughkeepsie,

 New York.
 In the six years he worked with me  at PCS games he programmed 8 Windows
 games that were sold on CD and   the following 18 DOS games that were sold
 on floppy disk:
 Arthur's Quest.
 A 2 Z Key Search.
 Breakout.
 Cops.
 Fox And Hounds.
 Haze Maze.
 Mind Puzzles.
 Mobius Mountain.
 Monopoly.
 P C S Car Racing Circuit.
 P C S Duck Hunt.
 P C S Space Invaders.
 Pack Man.
 Panzers In North Africa.
 Red Dragon Kick Boxing Challenge.
 Shooting Range.
 Snipe Hunt.
 Tenpin Bowling.
 Most of the 26 games were developed between 1996 and 2000 or about 6 per
 year and cost $30 to $40 which would be about $60 to $80 today based on
 inflation.
  Back in our peak year of 1999, we also sold games for
 Harry Hollingsworth, Ivan G. Roelofs  and David Greenwood before he started

 GMA Games. None of these games were sold as downloads, only physical disks
 sold through Ann Morris Enterprises, A Division of Independent Living Aids,

 Inc.
 I don't have the accurate total, but I think we sold about $20,000 in games

 that year, divided up between all the above people.
  Carl stopped game development because he could earn three times that total

 by himself working at IBM.

 Phil


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Re: [Audyssey] audio games popularity

2014-12-18 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Josh,

Simple answer is no. Dos screen readers and other 16-bit applications
will not run on modern Windows platforms. I've tried running them in
Dosbox with a Dectalk Express and got absolutely nowhere with them. So
I don't think running a Dos screen reader on modern Windows is really
possible.

The only thing I can think of, and I have thought of this for a while
now, is embedding a screen reader into Dosbox itself. That way the
screen reader can use Sapi and other text to speech services native to
the platform while performing screen reading tasks. By making the
screen reader an integrated part of Dosbox it would save the end user
all the trouble of trying to install some old screen reader into
Dosbox and then still require a hardware synth or similar device to
run it.

Cheers!


On 12/18/14, Josh k joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote:
 hi phil, I tried using dosbox and its not working for me. is there any
 way to use a dos screen reader anymore at all?

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Re: [Audyssey] tiny talk in dos

2014-12-18 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Josh,

Honestly, I'm not surprised. The only way I have ever managed to run
any old Dos applications etc the last few years is by using Dosemu
with Speakup. It isn't a perfect solution, but it does work. I have
managed to play some games and run certain apps like Wordperfect 5.1
with Speakup. However, that requires a Linux distribution like Vinux,
Ubuntu, or some other distribution with Speakup, Espeakup, and Dosemu.
Otherwise I don't think you are going to find a better solution for
running old Dos games and apps. I've already tried running copies of
Jaws for Dos etc in Dosbox before all to no success.

Cheers!


On 12/18/14, Josh k joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote:
 hey tiny talk with sound blaster isn't working. and I can't get speech
 thing working either. how can I use old dos stuff like wordperfect 5.1
 and lotus 123?


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Re: [Audyssey] braillemon

2014-12-18 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Ishan,

What's the script error. Nobody can help you if you don't give us the
exact error you are having with the game. When reporting problems and
issues don't assume everyone knows what you are talking about. That
just wastes everyone's time trying to figure out what the error is
when you could have said so in the first place.

Cheers!


On 12/18/14, ishan dhami ishan1dha...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hello friends the game braillemon is not running in my win 8 laptop.
 it is the script error can someone assist me?
 Thanks
 Ishan

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