Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
While I'm not a super fast Braille reader, I personally find it very fast to use speech to code. For the kinds of things I need to do on a daily basis, the speed of using speech is far superior for me. I.E. I do not need to leave my keyboard to search huge projects and edit little bits of code quickly in many areas of the project. Trying to navigate a project with many source files, needing to edit several lines in several different files quickly is something which I find very efficient with speech. Now I'm not saying that a proficient Braille reader may not be able to move quickly in the same way, I'm just saying that to categorically assert or speculate that one method is better than another is probably not quite accurate. I'd be curious to hear from folks using Braille for this sort of thing… Interesting discussion. Smiles, Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 13, 2013, at 5:34 AM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Charles: Yes and no. Certainly when looking at code braille is beneficial because you can instantly feel if your formatting is correct, if you have all the write syntax, function names are correctly spelled, etc. However, there are ways to get the same information through speech, and no it doesn't have to be tedious to get the same info via speech output. To give you an example there is a program for Linux called Emacspeak. What's so special about Emacspeak over most screen readers is it was designed especially for programmers to speak information contextually as a developer writes some code in C++, java, etc. If you indent a line of code it will automatically announce indented 5 spaces, 10 spaces, 15 spaces, etc and tell you if it is or out of a certain block of code. If you type a left brace it will tell you that you are starting a new block and if it is one, two, or three levels deep in the code. Same with a right brace. It will tell you that you have ended block 1, block 2, or block 3 so you know you are programming correctly without having to go back and review the screen. It can get a bit verbose at the same time, but it works for me and is just as good as the braille output. Windows screen readers like Window-Eyes, Jaws, NVDA, etc aren't necessarily as detailed, but can be configured to get the basic information across easy enough. There are things like spacing, tab indention, all punctuation, etc that can be enabled to get all the essential info as one types the code or arrows through it via speech. It is not as tedious as you might think. I'll agree it can be a bit too verbose, but I think speech output is better than throwing down a couple grand for a braille display to access the same info. So once again we come back to the crux of the problem. Is braille so benificial it is worth 2,000, 3,000, 4,000, 5,000, or more. Well, for me it is not worth that kind of money to buy a braille display to program. I can make do with speech for less money and put that money towards a new computer, a new iPhone, a Windows upgrade, whatever and still come out ahead. The value of that braille display is far less to me than the cost to have it. Cheers! On 12/12/13, Charles Rivard wrote: > Another instance in which braille would be beneficial is when writing code > of computer program, I would think. Where spacing and punctuation is > important, speech output would be tedious, time consuming, and a downright > pain in the backside. Going through your code, proofreading before > compiling, would probably be more naturally done with the fingers than the > ears. > > --- > Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, > > you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Now, there's the best argument for learning to read brailled sheet music I've ever heard!! I cannot dispute it, nor would I, other than to say that, for the music I play, I don't use it, although I do think that it could come in handy. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: "Jorge Gonçalves" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 6:10 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hello Dark: So I also tell you as a professional musician myself how can you learn and analyze pieces like Rachmaninnoffs Second Concerto with tupplets of dozens of notes in one beat in both hands without reading it? Are you superman? And if we don't need to read, why sighted musicians use scores. They have the same ears as we do? How can you follow a university lesson of analysis in music without the braille score: will you take a piece with hundreds of bars and you will remember all notes of all voices, all articulations, fingerings, text notes etc. I don't understand why we blind people want to be diffrent if we can play the card of integration. I am playing with a group, everyone has a score. We say we will start from bar 38, I have my electronic braille score on my braille display (I type 38 on the search box and I am there. Why do I have to be different? As my friend Bill McCann from DancingDots says, it is always sad when young blind musicians have to leave music university because of their lack of knowledge in music braille. And believe me, he knows about some stories. I really would like to know how can we make classical music performance in a professional level knowing that sighted musicians use scores since hundreds of years and by that they have all the access to the information, composers autographs, all articulations etc etc. Don't you know that sometime playing unproperly articulations in one musical phrase is enough to loose a competition or get bad records from music critics in newspapers? Cheers, Jorge Em 12/12/2013 16:30, dark escreveu: Hi George. As a professional musician and singer myself I personally disagree entirely about braille music, but that is not an arguement to have here. Regarding braille display and writing, given the choice between a synth voice are a braille display, for speed and convenience I'd probably read with a synth, however for atmosphere and flow I would probably read in braille, (though I'd take an actual human voice reading over both and it is possible synths might crack the intonation barrier in the future). However, the problem is, despite any bennifits I might perceive in braille, it is dam expensive! my Iphone cost me nothing over what it would cost with a sighted user, I could similarly use nvda on a pc, heck Supernova is coming down in price for this reason. With a braille display you still! need the software to begin with before you've even bought the itme. Were a braille display 100 usd, maybe even 200I'd considder getting one, but the plane and symple truth is that 1000 usd is a heck of a lot of money for access to reading text one line at a time. We can debate the pros and cons of the process of reading braille until the cows come home, but the ultimate question is one of basic economiccs. if something costs lots of money and something which can provide for most people an acquivolent service costs less, what are people going to buy? This is why the technology has to improve and be updated if braille is going to stick around in any major capacity in the future, indeed myself I'm fairly certain that unless a workable interface is developed in the next 5-10 years, in 20 years time nobody newly blind will be learning braille at all which means in 50 years it will die out completely. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Este email está liivre de vírus e malware porque a proteção avast! Antivirus está ativa. http://www.avast.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
That's interesting that you can get the same info using that special reader, although I agree that it would be very verbose, which would drive me nuts. I would personally still prefer the immediate and more silent feedback of braille. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 7:34 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hi Charles: Yes and no. Certainly when looking at code braille is beneficial because you can instantly feel if your formatting is correct, if you have all the write syntax, function names are correctly spelled, etc. However, there are ways to get the same information through speech, and no it doesn't have to be tedious to get the same info via speech output. To give you an example there is a program for Linux called Emacspeak. What's so special about Emacspeak over most screen readers is it was designed especially for programmers to speak information contextually as a developer writes some code in C++, java, etc. If you indent a line of code it will automatically announce indented 5 spaces, 10 spaces, 15 spaces, etc and tell you if it is or out of a certain block of code. If you type a left brace it will tell you that you are starting a new block and if it is one, two, or three levels deep in the code. Same with a right brace. It will tell you that you have ended block 1, block 2, or block 3 so you know you are programming correctly without having to go back and review the screen. It can get a bit verbose at the same time, but it works for me and is just as good as the braille output. Windows screen readers like Window-Eyes, Jaws, NVDA, etc aren't necessarily as detailed, but can be configured to get the basic information across easy enough. There are things like spacing, tab indention, all punctuation, etc that can be enabled to get all the essential info as one types the code or arrows through it via speech. It is not as tedious as you might think. I'll agree it can be a bit too verbose, but I think speech output is better than throwing down a couple grand for a braille display to access the same info. So once again we come back to the crux of the problem. Is braille so benificial it is worth 2,000, 3,000, 4,000, 5,000, or more. Well, for me it is not worth that kind of money to buy a braille display to program. I can make do with speech for less money and put that money towards a new computer, a new iPhone, a Windows upgrade, whatever and still come out ahead. The value of that braille display is far less to me than the cost to have it. Cheers! On 12/12/13, Charles Rivard wrote: Another instance in which braille would be beneficial is when writing code of computer program, I would think. Where spacing and punctuation is important, speech output would be tedious, time consuming, and a downright pain in the backside. Going through your code, proofreading before compiling, would probably be more naturally done with the fingers than the ears. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
the only braille display I would get is a braille pen because those are the cheapest and most affordable. I am still waiting for a nice cheap $300 or so 25 line full page braille display. using windows7 laptop On 12/13/2013 8:34 AM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Charles: Yes and no. Certainly when looking at code braille is beneficial because you can instantly feel if your formatting is correct, if you have all the write syntax, function names are correctly spelled, etc. However, there are ways to get the same information through speech, and no it doesn't have to be tedious to get the same info via speech output. To give you an example there is a program for Linux called Emacspeak. What's so special about Emacspeak over most screen readers is it was designed especially for programmers to speak information contextually as a developer writes some code in C++, java, etc. If you indent a line of code it will automatically announce indented 5 spaces, 10 spaces, 15 spaces, etc and tell you if it is or out of a certain block of code. If you type a left brace it will tell you that you are starting a new block and if it is one, two, or three levels deep in the code. Same with a right brace. It will tell you that you have ended block 1, block 2, or block 3 so you know you are programming correctly without having to go back and review the screen. It can get a bit verbose at the same time, but it works for me and is just as good as the braille output. Windows screen readers like Window-Eyes, Jaws, NVDA, etc aren't necessarily as detailed, but can be configured to get the basic information across easy enough. There are things like spacing, tab indention, all punctuation, etc that can be enabled to get all the essential info as one types the code or arrows through it via speech. It is not as tedious as you might think. I'll agree it can be a bit too verbose, but I think speech output is better than throwing down a couple grand for a braille display to access the same info. So once again we come back to the crux of the problem. Is braille so benificial it is worth 2,000, 3,000, 4,000, 5,000, or more. Well, for me it is not worth that kind of money to buy a braille display to program. I can make do with speech for less money and put that money towards a new computer, a new iPhone, a Windows upgrade, whatever and still come out ahead. The value of that braille display is far less to me than the cost to have it. Cheers! On 12/12/13, Charles Rivard wrote: Another instance in which braille would be beneficial is when writing code of computer program, I would think. Where spacing and punctuation is important, speech output would be tedious, time consuming, and a downright pain in the backside. Going through your code, proofreading before compiling, would probably be more naturally done with the fingers than the ears. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hi Charles: Yes and no. Certainly when looking at code braille is beneficial because you can instantly feel if your formatting is correct, if you have all the write syntax, function names are correctly spelled, etc. However, there are ways to get the same information through speech, and no it doesn't have to be tedious to get the same info via speech output. To give you an example there is a program for Linux called Emacspeak. What's so special about Emacspeak over most screen readers is it was designed especially for programmers to speak information contextually as a developer writes some code in C++, java, etc. If you indent a line of code it will automatically announce indented 5 spaces, 10 spaces, 15 spaces, etc and tell you if it is or out of a certain block of code. If you type a left brace it will tell you that you are starting a new block and if it is one, two, or three levels deep in the code. Same with a right brace. It will tell you that you have ended block 1, block 2, or block 3 so you know you are programming correctly without having to go back and review the screen. It can get a bit verbose at the same time, but it works for me and is just as good as the braille output. Windows screen readers like Window-Eyes, Jaws, NVDA, etc aren't necessarily as detailed, but can be configured to get the basic information across easy enough. There are things like spacing, tab indention, all punctuation, etc that can be enabled to get all the essential info as one types the code or arrows through it via speech. It is not as tedious as you might think. I'll agree it can be a bit too verbose, but I think speech output is better than throwing down a couple grand for a braille display to access the same info. So once again we come back to the crux of the problem. Is braille so benificial it is worth 2,000, 3,000, 4,000, 5,000, or more. Well, for me it is not worth that kind of money to buy a braille display to program. I can make do with speech for less money and put that money towards a new computer, a new iPhone, a Windows upgrade, whatever and still come out ahead. The value of that braille display is far less to me than the cost to have it. Cheers! On 12/12/13, Charles Rivard wrote: > Another instance in which braille would be beneficial is when writing code > of computer program, I would think. Where spacing and punctuation is > important, speech output would be tedious, time consuming, and a downright > pain in the backside. Going through your code, proofreading before > compiling, would probably be more naturally done with the fingers than the > ears. > > --- > Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, > > you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
For a braille display you need a software to use it which you don't have to pay a cent for getting it: For Windows you have Nvda, for Apple products you use Voiceover, for Android you use Talkback, for Lynux you use Orca. What is the damn expensive software you need for using braille with a braille display? Cheers, Jorge Em 12/12/2013 16:30, dark escreveu: Hi George. As a professional musician and singer myself I personally disagree entirely about braille music, but that is not an arguement to have here. Regarding braille display and writing, given the choice between a synth voice are a braille display, for speed and convenience I'd probably read with a synth, however for atmosphere and flow I would probably read in braille, (though I'd take an actual human voice reading over both and it is possible synths might crack the intonation barrier in the future). However, the problem is, despite any bennifits I might perceive in braille, it is dam expensive! my Iphone cost me nothing over what it would cost with a sighted user, I could similarly use nvda on a pc, heck Supernova is coming down in price for this reason. With a braille display you still! need the software to begin with before you've even bought the itme. Were a braille display 100 usd, maybe even 200I'd considder getting one, but the plane and symple truth is that 1000 usd is a heck of a lot of money for access to reading text one line at a time. We can debate the pros and cons of the process of reading braille until the cows come home, but the ultimate question is one of basic economiccs. if something costs lots of money and something which can provide for most people an acquivolent service costs less, what are people going to buy? This is why the technology has to improve and be updated if braille is going to stick around in any major capacity in the future, indeed myself I'm fairly certain that unless a workable interface is developed in the next 5-10 years, in 20 years time nobody newly blind will be learning braille at all which means in 50 years it will die out completely. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Este email está liivre de vírus e malware porque a proteção avast! Antivirus está ativa. http://www.avast.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hello Dark: So I also tell you as a professional musician myself how can you learn and analyze pieces like Rachmaninnoffs Second Concerto with tupplets of dozens of notes in one beat in both hands without reading it? Are you superman? And if we don't need to read, why sighted musicians use scores. They have the same ears as we do? How can you follow a university lesson of analysis in music without the braille score: will you take a piece with hundreds of bars and you will remember all notes of all voices, all articulations, fingerings, text notes etc. I don't understand why we blind people want to be diffrent if we can play the card of integration. I am playing with a group, everyone has a score. We say we will start from bar 38, I have my electronic braille score on my braille display (I type 38 on the search box and I am there. Why do I have to be different? As my friend Bill McCann from DancingDots says, it is always sad when young blind musicians have to leave music university because of their lack of knowledge in music braille. And believe me, he knows about some stories. I really would like to know how can we make classical music performance in a professional level knowing that sighted musicians use scores since hundreds of years and by that they have all the access to the information, composers autographs, all articulations etc etc. Don't you know that sometime playing unproperly articulations in one musical phrase is enough to loose a competition or get bad records from music critics in newspapers? Cheers, Jorge Em 12/12/2013 16:30, dark escreveu: Hi George. As a professional musician and singer myself I personally disagree entirely about braille music, but that is not an arguement to have here. Regarding braille display and writing, given the choice between a synth voice are a braille display, for speed and convenience I'd probably read with a synth, however for atmosphere and flow I would probably read in braille, (though I'd take an actual human voice reading over both and it is possible synths might crack the intonation barrier in the future). However, the problem is, despite any bennifits I might perceive in braille, it is dam expensive! my Iphone cost me nothing over what it would cost with a sighted user, I could similarly use nvda on a pc, heck Supernova is coming down in price for this reason. With a braille display you still! need the software to begin with before you've even bought the itme. Were a braille display 100 usd, maybe even 200I'd considder getting one, but the plane and symple truth is that 1000 usd is a heck of a lot of money for access to reading text one line at a time. We can debate the pros and cons of the process of reading braille until the cows come home, but the ultimate question is one of basic economiccs. if something costs lots of money and something which can provide for most people an acquivolent service costs less, what are people going to buy? This is why the technology has to improve and be updated if braille is going to stick around in any major capacity in the future, indeed myself I'm fairly certain that unless a workable interface is developed in the next 5-10 years, in 20 years time nobody newly blind will be learning braille at all which means in 50 years it will die out completely. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Este email está liivre de vírus e malware porque a proteção avast! Antivirus está ativa. http://www.avast.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hello Dark: So I also tell you as a professional musician myself how can you learn and analyze pieces like Rachmaninnoffs Second Concerto with tupplets of dozens of notes in one beat in both hands without reading it? Are you superman? And if we don't need to read, why sighted musicians use scores. They have the same ears as we do? How can you follow a university lesson of analysis in music without the braille score: will you take a piece with hundreds of bars and you will remember all notes of all voices, all articulations, fingerings, text notes etc. I don't understand why we blind people want to be diffrent if we can play the card of integration. I am playing with a group, everyone has a score. We say we will start from bar 38, I have my electronic braille score on my braille display (I type 38 on the search box and I am there. Why do I have to be different? As my friend Bill McCann from DancingDots says, it is always sad when young blind musicians have to leave music university because of their lack of knowledge in music braille. And believe me, he knows about some stories. I really would like to know how can we make classical music performance in a professional level knowing that sighted musicians use scores since hundreds of years and by that they have all the access to the information, composers autographs, all articulations etc etc. Don't you know that sometime playing unproperly articulations in one musical phrase is enough to loose a competition or get bad records from music critics in newspapers? Cheers, Jorge Em 12/12/2013 16:30, dark escreveu: Hi George. As a professional musician and singer myself I personally disagree entirely about braille music, but that is not an arguement to have here. Regarding braille display and writing, given the choice between a synth voice are a braille display, for speed and convenience I'd probably read with a synth, however for atmosphere and flow I would probably read in braille, (though I'd take an actual human voice reading over both and it is possible synths might crack the intonation barrier in the future). However, the problem is, despite any bennifits I might perceive in braille, it is dam expensive! my Iphone cost me nothing over what it would cost with a sighted user, I could similarly use nvda on a pc, heck Supernova is coming down in price for this reason. With a braille display you still! need the software to begin with before you've even bought the itme. Were a braille display 100 usd, maybe even 200I'd considder getting one, but the plane and symple truth is that 1000 usd is a heck of a lot of money for access to reading text one line at a time. We can debate the pros and cons of the process of reading braille until the cows come home, but the ultimate question is one of basic economiccs. if something costs lots of money and something which can provide for most people an acquivolent service costs less, what are people going to buy? This is why the technology has to improve and be updated if braille is going to stick around in any major capacity in the future, indeed myself I'm fairly certain that unless a workable interface is developed in the next 5-10 years, in 20 years time nobody newly blind will be learning braille at all which means in 50 years it will die out completely. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Este email está liivre de vírus e malware porque a proteção avast! Antivirus está ativa. http://www.avast.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hi Charles, I never touched braille until I was thirty two and a half, so I am not very good with it. I do though like it for playing cards with friends. If by myself though, I will play cards on the computer instead. Up Words is a game similar to scrabble, but you stack letters to change words on the board. It is nice since the letters are designed to stay in place on the board and it was easy to put braille on each letter. I can't tell you how many games of Up Words I have played over the years with my braille game of Up Words. And I think that it is easier for me to be able to look at that board than to try to review it on the computer screen. Same with chess. I really prefer to have a board that I can put my hands on rather than reviewing on a computer screen. My Music CDs I label m #1, m#2 etc. My sound effect CDs I label s #1, s #2 etc. Then I have a text file on my computer. Well two actually. One for the music CDs and one for the sound effect CDS. They look like; #1 A> Heart t>greatest hits barracuda silver wheels crazy on you straight on dream boat annie even it up magic man heartless dog and butterfly bebe-le-strange tell it like it is mistral wind sweet darlin I'm down / long tall sally rock and roll BFN Jim 4Sale, braille dictionary like new, must see 2 appreciate j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
I think that text messaging is the main reason. I prefer typing most stuff out rather than abbreviating, but it's a personal choice, and jmo. Oops? --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hi Bryan: Well, regarding netspeak I think a lot of that has to do with more and more people are using phones for communicating and since phones don't have full sized keyboards for e-mailing or texting it is easier to use the number 2 rather than use to or too. Various other common netspeak shortcuts are appearing more and more in e-mail and I suspect phones would be the leading reason. Cheers! On 12/12/13, Bryan Peterson wrote: I've noticed that. Maybe that's partly why so may people use that netspeak nonsense instead of good, plain English. As for Braille music I never could get the hang of that LOL. NOr was I really able to make sense of it the one time I tried to read one of those Braille maps that Shades of Doom can generate. Of course I've never been good at reading maps period let alone translating that into an actual route. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Another instance in which braille would be beneficial is when writing code of computer program, I would think. Where spacing and punctuation is important, speech output would be tedious, time consuming, and a downright pain in the backside. Going through your code, proofreading before compiling, would probably be more naturally done with the fingers than the ears. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:03 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hi: Lol! Yes, fingers are better than ears when playing guitars and pianos too. Regarding basic proofreading and editing no matter what screen reader certain things should be obvious when a word sounds wrong, it runs on without pausing, etc it is easy enough to find and correct such errors just by using speech alone. I figure most people don't care, and don't bother doing basic proofreading which they can do with any screen reader with or without a spell checker. However, some things I question if it is just a lack of caring or a lack of literacy such as the difference between to, too, and two or where and wear. I see such mistakes often on lists and wonder about the literacy level of the poster sending the post. As you say learning and using braille would help out alot with such mistakes. Cheers! On 12/12/13, Charles Rivard wrote: I never could figure out how to read brailled sheet music, so just play by fingers, as playing a guitar by ear is not easy. Fingers are more easily used to make chords. (grin) The points on spelling, grammar, and punctuation are very good reasons why braille is superior to speech. However, if people listen to their messages before sending, they should notice a lack of punctuation. The screen never pauses where punctuation would direct it to. Horribly mispronounced words are usually, but not always, due to misspellings. Some blind people don't care whether they type "to", "two", or "too", because it doesn't matter to them. They all sound OK, and they may not even know that there is a difference. This is partly due to a lack of education, and partly due to no immediate feedback as to which word is which. Braille will provide that feedback. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hi Bryan: Well, regarding netspeak I think a lot of that has to do with more and more people are using phones for communicating and since phones don't have full sized keyboards for e-mailing or texting it is easier to use the number 2 rather than use to or too. Various other common netspeak shortcuts are appearing more and more in e-mail and I suspect phones would be the leading reason. Cheers! On 12/12/13, Bryan Peterson wrote: > I've noticed that. Maybe that's partly why so may people use that netspeak > nonsense instead of good, plain English. As for Braille music I never could > > get the hang of that LOL. NOr was I really able to make sense of it the one > > time I tried to read one of those Braille maps that Shades of Doom can > generate. Of course I've never been good at reading maps period let alone > translating that into an actual route. > > > > They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
While I do partly agree on the litteracy front, there is another side to it. when I first switched from primarily writing in braille to typing, my spelling was horribly bad simply because I was so used to grade two contractions. I couldn't spell very basic words like little, recieve or father. It was only through writing in Word Perfect and using the spell check that I learnt my mistakes, since reading in braille I just got the contractions, and having been taught at such a young age those contractions were so integral to the way I thought that I still thought! of the word station as being two signs rather than s t a t i o n, despite knowing the difference. Thus, myself I disagree that the relationship between braille and lack of grammar or spelling is exactly that one way, indeed grammar mistakes I myself notice far more reading in speech than braille since I am able to hear the rythm of the sentence and punctuatiom far more easily. It is true that the reason sighted people care about spelling and maintain such is it's visible obviousness, however I disagree that braille is automatically a solution for all it might help some people, indeed I myself believe that sufficiently good synths, such as Daniel which I am using now can highlight spellings well enough if people just pay attention to them. I do wonder for example how many people have their synths set not to read what words or letters they type, or have their synths set just to read letters and then type so quickly that they do not actually hear what they are doing, (this is the reason I myself have mine set on reading words, since with my typing speed it comes out at the same wrate as normal speech). Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
I've noticed that. Maybe that's partly why so may people use that netspeak nonsense instead of good, plain English. As for Braille music I never could get the hang of that LOL. NOr was I really able to make sense of it the one time I tried to read one of those Braille maps that Shades of Doom can generate. Of course I've never been good at reading maps period let alone translating that into an actual route. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! -Original Message- From: Thomas Ward Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 9:22 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hi Jorge: I think you have hit upon the one issue that we can agree upon. While braille use is gradually being replaced by other technical alternatives it is still the only way to truly pass on literacy to a blind person. I know that on this and other blind related list the literacy of the blind list members has been going way down over the last few years. Poor spelling, poor grammar, and even lack of proper punctuation is quite common on blind related lists. One reason for this could be the trend for people to rely on technical gadgets rather than sitting down reading a book in braille or similar. Therefore at a minimum they aren't getting the constant reinforcement of spelling, grammar, and punctuation a sighted user would get on a daily basis. All they get is e-mails, books, and other documents read to them and they are losing basic literacy as a result. Another possible reason is blind people simply don't care. I know I am on a number of sighted mailing lists and most people try to proofread their e-mails so it is clear and not full of errors. The blind technology related lists seem to be the opposite. It is almost like they can't see it, most of the people are blind on the list can't see it, so nobody cares. Either way, there is no getting around the fact if e-mails are to go buy a lot of blind list members are incompetent when it comes to general literacy. Reading braille would definitely help with that, but I think we have turned a corner where most people who don't have to use it won't. About braille and music I agree with you. I am a musician myself, and why I like playing some things by ear it is nice to be able to read the music and make sure you are doing it right than to guess and guess wrong. Plus with classical music etc it is quite a bit more involved than say rock, country, or wrap. Cheers! On 12/12/13, Jorge Gonçalves wrote: I also would like to give my opinion: For me when we talk about braille we now adays have to include Braille as a whole language both for paper and electronic braille displays. For me Braille is literacy and can never be replaced. The blind person should be able to write and read like everyone else. Now the question is the cost, timing and volume of braille hard copies. About this, I believe the braille production in hard books will be substancially reduced with the lack of need, lack of space to store it both at home and libraries, the speed of production and with the global crysis. ..But for me braille is also what we can read in braille displays and also the speed we get with braille writing using the same braille keyboards. For example when a book is produced and put available on the Kindle App for IOS, I can have it some minutes later fully in braille because I can read it with my braille displays And I like to be able to read, to feel the touch of letters and have the sensation of reading. The key point here is the cost of braille displays. No matter what we say, they still are very expensive and not affordable so that we could talk about the global spreading of braille. It's true that manufacturers of braille displays are trying to reduce the costs- For example a Focus 14 in the US costs 1295 if they didn't change it. I have one myself and really the quolity of this product is amazing. The braille is great, bluetooth capacities, quite keyboard. Also when we talk about braille we should remember products like Braille Pen from Harpo which is a braille keyboard that costs around 250 Euros. This product really speeds up the braille writing for a lot of people. So people who like braille like I do, should be also allowed to use braille in a daily basis. I use braille everyday but I rarely touch a braille hard copy of any kind of documents. I only use electronic braille. Now as a professional musician and music teacher I can say that no matter what people say, blind people who want to seriously learn music specially about classic pieces they will always need to learn braille music and who ever says the opposite either is not knowledgable enough or is not serious. It's true than in letters braille can be replaced but in music, it can not. So braille is there for a longtime the point is that the way which we are using
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hi: Lol! Yes, fingers are better than ears when playing guitars and pianos too. Regarding basic proofreading and editing no matter what screen reader certain things should be obvious when a word sounds wrong, it runs on without pausing, etc it is easy enough to find and correct such errors just by using speech alone. I figure most people don't care, and don't bother doing basic proofreading which they can do with any screen reader with or without a spell checker. However, some things I question if it is just a lack of caring or a lack of literacy such as the difference between to, too, and two or where and wear. I see such mistakes often on lists and wonder about the literacy level of the poster sending the post. As you say learning and using braille would help out alot with such mistakes. Cheers! On 12/12/13, Charles Rivard wrote: > I never could figure out how to read brailled sheet music, so just play by > fingers, as playing a guitar by ear is not easy. Fingers are more easily > used to make chords. (grin) > > The points on spelling, grammar, and punctuation are very good reasons why > braille is superior to speech. However, if people listen to their messages > > before sending, they should notice a lack of punctuation. The screen never > > pauses where punctuation would direct it to. Horribly mispronounced words > are usually, but not always, due to misspellings. Some blind people don't > care whether they type "to", "two", or "too", because it doesn't matter to > them. They all sound OK, and they may not even know that there is a > difference. This is partly due to a lack of education, and partly due to no > > immediate feedback as to which word is which. Braille will provide that > feedback. > > --- > Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, > > you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
There is no way that I would use a Pen Friend to label decks of playing cards or even a simple game of Monopoly. It would take so blasted long to get the necessary info from Monopoly property deeds, the money would have to be heard, the Chance and Community Chest cards would have to be heard. During a game of Pinochle, people would be waiting for me to hear my cards. These are two examples where cards with braille on them would be so much faster and more convenient! Plus, what do you do if your Pen Friend runs out of storage space? The Pen friend is also not random access. You hear the whole message, however lengthy it is. While it is fairly inexpensive, it has drawbacks. For card games, braille on the cards is the way to go. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 7:27 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hi Tom. This is why I said braille display technology needs to catch up, in both cost and utility, since at the moment speech alternatives are just proving both cheaper and equally as functional. Up until the penfriend I'd have still said braille was absolutely necessary for labels on things, now that is not the case, indeed from a purely practical matter it's actually much easier to penfriend label stuff than it is to do in braille since you don't need half the space, can use a sticker approximately the size of a keybaord key which can hold all the information you want, and don't have to muck about doing cut outs of labels. Getting back to games, you could even theoretically use penfriend labels on cards or on a board, since the penfriend itself has a headphone socket albeit this would still probably be a trifle tortuous and would be a trade off between providing all the information on the label, (it'd be very easy to say reccord the hole text of a game of life square for example), and having instant access to a short note by finger rather than needing to muck about pointing a sensor. Of course, there are specialized uses for braille, I remember for example you mentioning reading braille stories to your son, not to mention the needs of deaf/blind people, but this is just another reason for braille to progress since if the majority of the uses of braille are superseeded by easy, lower cost alternatives, then braille will go the same way as mourse code, stenography, line type setting, ie, be reduced just to one or two specialist uses. Personally I'd love to see full screen tactile and braille displays, a thing we do have the technology and expertees for, but which, though it's been on the cards for at least the last 15 years nobody seems to have actually bothered developing into a serious peice of hardware, indeed braille display and printing technology hasn't moved on since the mid 90's. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hi Tom. All that is true, indeed I remember in secondary school having regular arguements with the school librarian (rather like Madam pince in Harry potter), who stated that a person could only have 3 books out at a time, irrispective that the three books I wanted out were three volumes of the hobbit, which I wanted to take on holiday with me. I also always found myself braille reading speed really suffered as compared to reading in speech or by a recording, especially with complex and detailed material, heck this was why when I got to university and started studdying philosophy, I never! got any texts brailled and always worked through either a small portable scanner, or a digital recorder and paid reading assistant, indeed during my phd research that became highly necessary. One thing I will say however, is that while reading speed and ability to get basic informational content from braille is much less than speech or audio, for atmosphere and individual comprehention I have always preferd braille over speech. This is why I don't particularly like reading Ebooks and the like with a synth voice if I have a choice, --- -but would be happy doing so in braille. The problem is that with the technology for braille reproduction being the price it is, it's just not practical. If I won the lottery or robbed a bank I might buy a braille display, similarly if I could get one for say 100 or even 200 usd I might, but as it is it's just too much of a luxury, indeed I find myself these days far less aversed to reading in synth voices than i used to be just through necessity of having to do it due to lack of said display. This is again why I'd love to see improvement in braille reproduction, but equally why I'm fairly convinced braille will drop off the map if this doesn't happen. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
The only thing that I disagree with is that you must learn braille music if you are seriously into music. My point of view is not from that of a teacher, but as a person who plays, and used to teach, guitar. I have always played by ear, or someone might show me how to make a certain chord. Then again, my music is not classical, which is more critical. I play most country, and fifties to early seventies rock. I don't think that sheet music is a requirement for the stuff I do. I do consider it a plus, though, and may consider another attempt at learning to read it just to be able to do so if the need arises. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: "Jorge Gonçalves" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 8:15 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game I also would like to give my opinion: For me when we talk about braille we now adays have to include Braille as a whole language both for paper and electronic braille displays. For me Braille is literacy and can never be replaced. The blind person should be able to write and read like everyone else. Now the question is the cost, timing and volume of braille hard copies. About this, I believe the braille production in hard books will be substancially reduced with the lack of need, lack of space to store it both at home and libraries, the speed of production and with the global crysis. ..But for me braille is also what we can read in braille displays and also the speed we get with braille writing using the same braille keyboards. For example when a book is produced and put available on the Kindle App for IOS, I can have it some minutes later fully in braille because I can read it with my braille displays And I like to be able to read, to feel the touch of letters and have the sensation of reading. The key point here is the cost of braille displays. No matter what we say, they still are very expensive and not affordable so that we could talk about the global spreading of braille. It's true that manufacturers of braille displays are trying to reduce the costs- For example a Focus 14 in the US costs 1295 if they didn't change it. I have one myself and really the quolity of this product is amazing. The braille is great, bluetooth capacities, quite keyboard. Also when we talk about braille we should remember products like Braille Pen from Harpo which is a braille keyboard that costs around 250 Euros. This product really speeds up the braille writing for a lot of people. So people who like braille like I do, should be also allowed to use braille in a daily basis. I use braille everyday but I rarely touch a braille hard copy of any kind of documents. I only use electronic braille. Now as a professional musician and music teacher I can say that no matter what people say, blind people who want to seriously learn music specially about classic pieces they will always need to learn braille music and who ever says the opposite either is not knowledgable enough or is not serious. It's true than in letters braille can be replaced but in music, it can not. So braille is there for a longtime the point is that the way which we are using is developping. Cheers, Jorge Em 12/12/2013 13:34, dark escreveu: I think the best example of braille size was my schools copy of the pocket dictionary in braille. Bare in mind the phrase "pocket dictionary" a book which all the other kids doing english were lent a copy of and which was, as the name implies pocket sized. The braille version was 18 volumes, each of which was slightly larger in size than an A 4 sheet of print paper, with ahrd bindings and a good three or four inches thick! (they were around 80 braille pages each). I think the only way that could be a pocket dictionary is for the Big friendly giant! :D. Beware the Grue! dArk. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Este email está liivre de vírus e malware porque a proteção avast! Antivirus está ativa. http://www.avast.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-arc
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hi charlse. I'm just wondering about some of these catagorical statements you make. For example "Why use a device to read labels when braille works better?" how is braille labelling better exactly? Using the pen friend I can record labels as long as I like. if I want a label saying "indiana jones and the temple of doom extra documentary" and I want to stick it on the little inch square insert by the disk in the main indiana jones box set, well I can do that. I couldn't with braille. I'd neeed to write a label saying "ind 2 ext" or something like that to fit into that space. I'd have to prat around with a pare of scissors chopping out labels. The penfriend barcode lables are peel off and stick on. "why use a device when you can use your fingers?" Why use a truck to carry heavy loads around when you can use your back. I'm not anti braille by any means, however Charlse it seems that often your statements about braille are simply catagorical. You think braille is clearly the best option because it is, fullstop, end of story. Well fair enough your entitled to an opinion, however it really isn't helpful to a debate to just throw out catagorical statements like that with no reason behind them. I'm not anti braille by any means, but neither do I believe braille is the best alternative simply because it is. Braille has good and bad points like anything else and if we're going to discuss them I'd prefer a real discussion please. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hi George. As a professional musician and singer myself I personally disagree entirely about braille music, but that is not an arguement to have here. Regarding braille display and writing, given the choice between a synth voice are a braille display, for speed and convenience I'd probably read with a synth, however for atmosphere and flow I would probably read in braille, (though I'd take an actual human voice reading over both and it is possible synths might crack the intonation barrier in the future). However, the problem is, despite any bennifits I might perceive in braille, it is dam expensive! my Iphone cost me nothing over what it would cost with a sighted user, I could similarly use nvda on a pc, heck Supernova is coming down in price for this reason. With a braille display you still! need the software to begin with before you've even bought the itme. Were a braille display 100 usd, maybe even 200I'd considder getting one, but the plane and symple truth is that 1000 usd is a heck of a lot of money for access to reading text one line at a time. We can debate the pros and cons of the process of reading braille until the cows come home, but the ultimate question is one of basic economiccs. if something costs lots of money and something which can provide for most people an acquivolent service costs less, what are people going to buy? This is why the technology has to improve and be updated if braille is going to stick around in any major capacity in the future, indeed myself I'm fairly certain that unless a workable interface is developed in the next 5-10 years, in 20 years time nobody newly blind will be learning braille at all which means in 50 years it will die out completely. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
I never could figure out how to read brailled sheet music, so just play by fingers, as playing a guitar by ear is not easy. Fingers are more easily used to make chords. (grin) The points on spelling, grammar, and punctuation are very good reasons why braille is superior to speech. However, if people listen to their messages before sending, they should notice a lack of punctuation. The screen never pauses where punctuation would direct it to. Horribly mispronounced words are usually, but not always, due to misspellings. Some blind people don't care whether they type "to", "two", or "too", because it doesn't matter to them. They all sound OK, and they may not even know that there is a difference. This is partly due to a lack of education, and partly due to no immediate feedback as to which word is which. Braille will provide that feedback. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:22 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hi Jorge: I think you have hit upon the one issue that we can agree upon. While braille use is gradually being replaced by other technical alternatives it is still the only way to truly pass on literacy to a blind person. I know that on this and other blind related list the literacy of the blind list members has been going way down over the last few years. Poor spelling, poor grammar, and even lack of proper punctuation is quite common on blind related lists. One reason for this could be the trend for people to rely on technical gadgets rather than sitting down reading a book in braille or similar. Therefore at a minimum they aren't getting the constant reinforcement of spelling, grammar, and punctuation a sighted user would get on a daily basis. All they get is e-mails, books, and other documents read to them and they are losing basic literacy as a result. Another possible reason is blind people simply don't care. I know I am on a number of sighted mailing lists and most people try to proofread their e-mails so it is clear and not full of errors. The blind technology related lists seem to be the opposite. It is almost like they can't see it, most of the people are blind on the list can't see it, so nobody cares. Either way, there is no getting around the fact if e-mails are to go buy a lot of blind list members are incompetent when it comes to general literacy. Reading braille would definitely help with that, but I think we have turned a corner where most people who don't have to use it won't. About braille and music I agree with you. I am a musician myself, and why I like playing some things by ear it is nice to be able to read the music and make sure you are doing it right than to guess and guess wrong. Plus with classical music etc it is quite a bit more involved than say rock, country, or wrap. Cheers! On 12/12/13, Jorge Gonçalves wrote: I also would like to give my opinion: For me when we talk about braille we now adays have to include Braille as a whole language both for paper and electronic braille displays. For me Braille is literacy and can never be replaced. The blind person should be able to write and read like everyone else. Now the question is the cost, timing and volume of braille hard copies. About this, I believe the braille production in hard books will be substancially reduced with the lack of need, lack of space to store it both at home and libraries, the speed of production and with the global crysis. ..But for me braille is also what we can read in braille displays and also the speed we get with braille writing using the same braille keyboards. For example when a book is produced and put available on the Kindle App for IOS, I can have it some minutes later fully in braille because I can read it with my braille displays And I like to be able to read, to feel the touch of letters and have the sensation of reading. The key point here is the cost of braille displays. No matter what we say, they still are very expensive and not affordable so that we could talk about the global spreading of braille. It's true that manufacturers of braille displays are trying to reduce the costs- For example a Focus 14 in the US costs 1295 if they didn't change it. I have one myself and really the quolity of this product is amazing. The braille is great, bluetooth capacities, quite keyboard. Also when we talk about braille we should remember products like Braille Pen from Harpo which is a braille keyboard that costs around 250 Euros. This product really speeds up the braille writing for a lot of people. So people who like braille like I do, should be also allowed to use braille in a daily
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hi Jorge: I think you have hit upon the one issue that we can agree upon. While braille use is gradually being replaced by other technical alternatives it is still the only way to truly pass on literacy to a blind person. I know that on this and other blind related list the literacy of the blind list members has been going way down over the last few years. Poor spelling, poor grammar, and even lack of proper punctuation is quite common on blind related lists. One reason for this could be the trend for people to rely on technical gadgets rather than sitting down reading a book in braille or similar. Therefore at a minimum they aren't getting the constant reinforcement of spelling, grammar, and punctuation a sighted user would get on a daily basis. All they get is e-mails, books, and other documents read to them and they are losing basic literacy as a result. Another possible reason is blind people simply don't care. I know I am on a number of sighted mailing lists and most people try to proofread their e-mails so it is clear and not full of errors. The blind technology related lists seem to be the opposite. It is almost like they can't see it, most of the people are blind on the list can't see it, so nobody cares. Either way, there is no getting around the fact if e-mails are to go buy a lot of blind list members are incompetent when it comes to general literacy. Reading braille would definitely help with that, but I think we have turned a corner where most people who don't have to use it won't. About braille and music I agree with you. I am a musician myself, and why I like playing some things by ear it is nice to be able to read the music and make sure you are doing it right than to guess and guess wrong. Plus with classical music etc it is quite a bit more involved than say rock, country, or wrap. Cheers! On 12/12/13, Jorge Gonçalves wrote: > I also would like to give my opinion: > For me when we talk about braille we now adays have to include Braille > as a whole language both for paper and electronic braille displays. > For me Braille is literacy and can never be replaced. The blind person > should be able to write and read like everyone else. Now the question is > the cost, timing and volume of braille hard copies. About this, I > believe the braille production in hard books will be substancially > reduced with the lack of need, lack of space to store it both at home > and libraries, the speed of production and with the global crysis. > ..But for me braille is also what we can read in braille displays and > also the speed we get with braille writing using the same braille > keyboards. > For example when a book is produced and put available on the Kindle App > for IOS, I can have it some minutes later fully in braille because I can > read it with my braille displays And I like to be able to read, to feel > the touch of letters and have the sensation of reading. > The key point here is the cost of braille displays. No matter what we > say, they still are very expensive and not affordable so that we could > talk about the global spreading of braille. > It's true that manufacturers of braille displays are trying to reduce > the costs- For example a Focus 14 in the US costs 1295 if they didn't > change it. I have one myself and really the quolity of this product is > amazing. The braille is great, bluetooth capacities, quite keyboard. > Also when we talk about braille we should remember products like Braille > Pen from Harpo which is a braille keyboard that costs around 250 Euros. > This product really speeds up the braille writing for a lot of people. > So people who like braille like I do, should be also allowed to use > braille in a daily basis. I use braille everyday but I rarely touch a > braille hard copy of any kind of documents. I only use electronic braille. > Now as a professional musician and music teacher I can say that no > matter what people say, blind people who want to seriously learn music > specially about classic pieces they will always need to learn braille > music and who ever says the opposite either is not knowledgable enough > or is not serious. > It's true than in letters braille can be replaced but in music, it can not. > So braille is there for a longtime the point is that the way which we > are using is developping. > Cheers, > Jorge --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
You must be assimilated. Resistance is futile!! Cost and space are major concerns. But for actually reading, braille, whether hardcopy or refreshable device, is the preferred method of reading for me. I have a Pac Mate with a braille display on it. Braille books in .brf format on a flash card can be accessed. I also have the BARD app on my iPhone, and braille books from the NLS can be accessed using my 40-cell Bluetooth braille display. There are times and situations where hardcopy braille is more to my liking, though, such as during power outages when battery life can be a precious commodity. I've got the full series of the Harry Potter books in soft cover braille that takes up 3 shelves of a small book shelf for such occasions. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 4:21 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hi Charles: In the words of the Borg, "braille is irrelevant." Lol! Seriously, though, you have a point. If the technology fails a person who was totally dependent on it would be sunk. However, using braille is still none-the-less an impractical method of reading and writing, because it is impossible to store braille books, notes, or documents of any kind in a standard mid sized apartment. I remember several years ago I had a complete bible in braille. It was 30 very large volumes in braille that seemed to weigh a ton each. The entire book took up the entire top shelf of a very large bookcase. Now, a standard print bible is large, but can fit nicely on a bookcase, on someone's coffee table, end table, and there are of course even small print versions compact enough to fit in a persons coat pocket. You can not do that with braille, but you can do it with electronic formats like text, epub, html, or whatever. I recognize you are a fan of braille, and I won't put you down for making that choice. I will, however, question how much you have considered it from a practicality point of view. It is extremely expensive to braille documentation, let alone a book as big as the bible, and even when a person makes that book they need something like a small warehouse to store it because it takes a lot of room to store complete braille books. To give you another example right now I have about 305 Star Wars books in epub format. I can fit the entire collection on a DVD, put it in my computer, and read them in Mozilla Firefox using the epub add-on. It is both very portable and the cost per book was actually quite inexpensive for me since buying electronic books is less than the cost of a paperback or hardback book in print. Now, let's assume I wanted to buy that entire collection in braille. The cost of all 305 books would probably be measured in the thousands. The cost of the braille paper, the binders, etc alone would make it more expensive to produce let alone labor costs. Once I purchased all 305 books I would still need a room to store them in. Since I live in a small apartment I would simply have nowhere to put all those braille books. So I have to question how practical braille is in today's society where technology appears to me to have a lot more advantages over braille both in terms of cost as well as the ability to store as much documentation as I want. Cheers! On 12/11/13, Charles Rivard wrote: Become dependent on technology. Technology fails. You're sunk. Nobody or nothing does your reading for you. Use braille. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hi Dark: My point exactly. Comparing braille to print is clearly unequal as what can be a pocket sized handbook for the sighted person takes several huge volumes in braille for a blind person. What I want as an end user is the same portability, same space requirements, and same ability to look things up as a sighted user when reading some documentation. Braille does not allow me to do that because it usually winds up being impractical for any of those requirements. I know one thing that use to bug the crap out of me when I was younger is I would take a braille textbook home, and I'd get 90% through a reading assignment only for the volume to run out, and I'd need the next volume. Well, if the next volume is at school I end up having to not complete the assignment on account the blasted book was incomplete. The only way to prevent that from happening was to go ahead and take the next volume home with me just in case. Never mind the fact braille books are heavy to begin with, but having to carry extra volumes along to class or home was to my way of thinking ridiculous. Of course, one reason braille never caught on with me is for the first few years I was fully sighted. After having learned to learn print, having had the portability that goes along with print reading materials, braille seemed like a pretty poor second. Oh, it worked, but I personally would rather some reading system that is on par with print. At this point do to technology using some portable device like an iPhone or Android phone and a electronic document is really as close as I can get. In ways, it is better than print because we are not dealing with one document but many documents, music, and a bunch of other stuff that comes with a tablet or smartphone. Cheers! On 12/12/13, dark wrote: > I think the best example of braille size was my schools copy of the pocket > dictionary in braille. > > Bare in mind the phrase "pocket dictionary" a book which all the other kids > > doing english were lent a copy of and which was, as the name implies > pocket sized. > > The braille version was 18 volumes, each of which was slightly larger in > size than an A 4 sheet of print paper, with ahrd bindings and a good three > or four inches thick! (they were around 80 braille pages each). > > I think the only way that could be a pocket dictionary is for the Big > friendly giant! :D. > > Beware the Grue! > > dArk. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
agreed. I couldn't store any braille books in my bedsit. Amanda -- From: "Thomas Ward" Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:21 AM To: "Gamers Discussion list" Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hi Charles: In the words of the Borg, "braille is irrelevant." Lol! Seriously, though, you have a point. If the technology fails a person who was totally dependent on it would be sunk. However, using braille is still none-the-less an impractical method of reading and writing, because it is impossible to store braille books, notes, or documents of any kind in a standard mid sized apartment. I remember several years ago I had a complete bible in braille. It was 30 very large volumes in braille that seemed to weigh a ton each. The entire book took up the entire top shelf of a very large bookcase. Now, a standard print bible is large, but can fit nicely on a bookcase, on someone's coffee table, end table, and there are of course even small print versions compact enough to fit in a persons coat pocket. You can not do that with braille, but you can do it with electronic formats like text, epub, html, or whatever. I recognize you are a fan of braille, and I won't put you down for making that choice. I will, however, question how much you have considered it from a practicality point of view. It is extremely expensive to braille documentation, let alone a book as big as the bible, and even when a person makes that book they need something like a small warehouse to store it because it takes a lot of room to store complete braille books. To give you another example right now I have about 305 Star Wars books in epub format. I can fit the entire collection on a DVD, put it in my computer, and read them in Mozilla Firefox using the epub add-on. It is both very portable and the cost per book was actually quite inexpensive for me since buying electronic books is less than the cost of a paperback or hardback book in print. Now, let's assume I wanted to buy that entire collection in braille. The cost of all 305 books would probably be measured in the thousands. The cost of the braille paper, the binders, etc alone would make it more expensive to produce let alone labor costs. Once I purchased all 305 books I would still need a room to store them in. Since I live in a small apartment I would simply have nowhere to put all those braille books. So I have to question how practical braille is in today's society where technology appears to me to have a lot more advantages over braille both in terms of cost as well as the ability to store as much documentation as I want. Cheers! On 12/11/13, Charles Rivard wrote: Become dependent on technology. Technology fails. You're sunk. Nobody or nothing does your reading for you. Use braille. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
I also would like to give my opinion: For me when we talk about braille we now adays have to include Braille as a whole language both for paper and electronic braille displays. For me Braille is literacy and can never be replaced. The blind person should be able to write and read like everyone else. Now the question is the cost, timing and volume of braille hard copies. About this, I believe the braille production in hard books will be substancially reduced with the lack of need, lack of space to store it both at home and libraries, the speed of production and with the global crysis. ..But for me braille is also what we can read in braille displays and also the speed we get with braille writing using the same braille keyboards. For example when a book is produced and put available on the Kindle App for IOS, I can have it some minutes later fully in braille because I can read it with my braille displays And I like to be able to read, to feel the touch of letters and have the sensation of reading. The key point here is the cost of braille displays. No matter what we say, they still are very expensive and not affordable so that we could talk about the global spreading of braille. It's true that manufacturers of braille displays are trying to reduce the costs- For example a Focus 14 in the US costs 1295 if they didn't change it. I have one myself and really the quolity of this product is amazing. The braille is great, bluetooth capacities, quite keyboard. Also when we talk about braille we should remember products like Braille Pen from Harpo which is a braille keyboard that costs around 250 Euros. This product really speeds up the braille writing for a lot of people. So people who like braille like I do, should be also allowed to use braille in a daily basis. I use braille everyday but I rarely touch a braille hard copy of any kind of documents. I only use electronic braille. Now as a professional musician and music teacher I can say that no matter what people say, blind people who want to seriously learn music specially about classic pieces they will always need to learn braille music and who ever says the opposite either is not knowledgable enough or is not serious. It's true than in letters braille can be replaced but in music, it can not. So braille is there for a longtime the point is that the way which we are using is developping. Cheers, Jorge Em 12/12/2013 13:34, dark escreveu: I think the best example of braille size was my schools copy of the pocket dictionary in braille. Bare in mind the phrase "pocket dictionary" a book which all the other kids doing english were lent a copy of and which was, as the name implies pocket sized. The braille version was 18 volumes, each of which was slightly larger in size than an A 4 sheet of print paper, with ahrd bindings and a good three or four inches thick! (they were around 80 braille pages each). I think the only way that could be a pocket dictionary is for the Big friendly giant! :D. Beware the Grue! dArk. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Este email está liivre de vírus e malware porque a proteção avast! Antivirus está ativa. http://www.avast.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
I think the best example of braille size was my schools copy of the pocket dictionary in braille. Bare in mind the phrase "pocket dictionary" a book which all the other kids doing english were lent a copy of and which was, as the name implies pocket sized. The braille version was 18 volumes, each of which was slightly larger in size than an A 4 sheet of print paper, with ahrd bindings and a good three or four inches thick! (they were around 80 braille pages each). I think the only way that could be a pocket dictionary is for the Big friendly giant! :D. Beware the Grue! dArk. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hi Charles: In the words of the Borg, "braille is irrelevant." Lol! Seriously, though, you have a point. If the technology fails a person who was totally dependent on it would be sunk. However, using braille is still none-the-less an impractical method of reading and writing, because it is impossible to store braille books, notes, or documents of any kind in a standard mid sized apartment. I remember several years ago I had a complete bible in braille. It was 30 very large volumes in braille that seemed to weigh a ton each. The entire book took up the entire top shelf of a very large bookcase. Now, a standard print bible is large, but can fit nicely on a bookcase, on someone's coffee table, end table, and there are of course even small print versions compact enough to fit in a persons coat pocket. You can not do that with braille, but you can do it with electronic formats like text, epub, html, or whatever. I recognize you are a fan of braille, and I won't put you down for making that choice. I will, however, question how much you have considered it from a practicality point of view. It is extremely expensive to braille documentation, let alone a book as big as the bible, and even when a person makes that book they need something like a small warehouse to store it because it takes a lot of room to store complete braille books. To give you another example right now I have about 305 Star Wars books in epub format. I can fit the entire collection on a DVD, put it in my computer, and read them in Mozilla Firefox using the epub add-on. It is both very portable and the cost per book was actually quite inexpensive for me since buying electronic books is less than the cost of a paperback or hardback book in print. Now, let's assume I wanted to buy that entire collection in braille. The cost of all 305 books would probably be measured in the thousands. The cost of the braille paper, the binders, etc alone would make it more expensive to produce let alone labor costs. Once I purchased all 305 books I would still need a room to store them in. Since I live in a small apartment I would simply have nowhere to put all those braille books. So I have to question how practical braille is in today's society where technology appears to me to have a lot more advantages over braille both in terms of cost as well as the ability to store as much documentation as I want. Cheers! On 12/11/13, Charles Rivard wrote: > Become dependent on technology. Technology fails. You're sunk. Nobody or > > nothing does your reading for you. Use braille. > > --- > Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, > > you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Become dependent on technology. Technology fails. You're sunk. Nobody or nothing does your reading for you. Use braille. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 3:46 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hi Tom. I could see a braille revival if the technology to produce it ever catches up with speech in cost and ease of use, since imagine all the possibilities of a full sized tactile screen with brailled text, but failing such a technological and economic development your likely right. Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is not really something to get into, but it does seem the way things are going, heck the principle reason why I, despite knowing grade two braille don't own a braille display is due to the extreme cost and the fact that such a thing would be a luxury, not a necessity. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
When browsing a menu in a restaurant, it doesn't take me all that long to do. I don't read every item. Not interested in the salads? Skip over that section. I usually have a good idea of what I'm looking for, anyway, and go to that section first. If the menu is correctly laid out, it's simple to find something good. And I refuse to beware the Grue! --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Or indeed not actually tom. I have been blind all my life (or at least registered blind in the Uk), I did learn braille before the first day of school since my mum started teaching me when I was in nursery, yet there are occasions when I! prefer an electronic copy of things over braile, particularly things like a menu where I just want the information asap and there is no context or atmosphere to care about, just because they're so much quicker and easier and faster to read, indeed on the occasions I have! had a braille menu my brother has finished up reading for me just because otherwise I'll take twice as long in going through all the alternatives. These days even the duties of braille labelling for dvds, cds and xsuch are taking over by my Penfriend device and audio stickers. This isn't the time for another braille debate, but suffice it to say that having an electronic copy would not be regarded as an inferior alternative to many people. Plus of course, if a person owns a braille display they get braille anyway. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 6:25 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Some practicalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hi Charles: Well, that may be, but the fact is we are trying to cut costs for someone producing the documentation be it a menu or a game's user guide. If the braille documentation costs too much to do it chances are they won't, but if we can offer them something cheaper that is accessible they might go for that. The other issue is braille literacy itself. Not everyone who is blind knows braille, or is especially good with it. I myself lost my sight later in life, learned braille, but am not real good with it. I would prefer an electronic document over a braille document simply because my braille reading skills are not that good. Someone who has been blind all their life, started learning braille since the first day of school, would probably feel a lot differently from me about the subject. Cheers! On 12/11/13, Charles Rivard wrote: I would prefer not using anything other than my fingers to do the reading of a menu or a game user's guide. And if the right binder is used, pages can easily be removed or exchanged after modification. This is why I prefer hardcopy braille over html.. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
