Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Fri, 2010-12-31 at 10:34 -0700, John Doty wrote: Without offending anyone I hope, I think it would be fair to say there is ONE current gEDA developer, and I think you would struggle to point out anything detrimental Peter Brett has done to the project. Well, Peter, at least, thinks of you as a developer. And there's DJ, who is certainly influential, energetic, and brilliant, but has a dangerously narrow focus. Then there's Patrick Bernaud. Bas Gjeltes and I tried to contribute a patch for the attribute censorship bug, but Patrick grabbed it, unfactored my Guile code, found a problem that broke drc2, and then dropped it. Is Patrick a developer? At least, he's a gatekeeper. Maybe refactoring and fixing the drc2 bug will be my New Year's day project. Then we'll see if this problem can *ever* be solved. As I said, no offence was meant to anyone else who has contributed, or is contributing code to the project. I was mostly confining myself to think of those with commit access, and / or major code projects cooking which I know of. (That is why I don't consider myself an active gEDA developer at the moment.. all of my spare effort is going into PCB, and any patches I had outstanding for gEDA are pretty stagnant.) [snip] (Yes, Peter B and I are friends, so I'm biased - but I think this all bore saying.) I think we can all be friends. Disagreement does not imply malice. Well said ;) (And I forgive Peter B for being an emacs user ;)) -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values?
John Doty writes: [...] Then there's Patrick Bernaud. Bas Gjeltes and I tried to contribute a patch for the attribute censorship bug, but Patrick grabbed it, unfactored my Guile code, found a problem that broke drc2, and then dropped it. Maybe you can elaborate on your last sentence: what did I drop exactly? Patrick the gatekeeper ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values?
On Jan 2, 2011, at 2:50 AM, Patrick Bernaud wrote: John Doty writes: [...] Then there's Patrick Bernaud. Bas Gjeltes and I tried to contribute a patch for the attribute censorship bug, but Patrick grabbed it, unfactored my Guile code, found a problem that broke drc2, and then dropped it. Maybe you can elaborate on your last sentence: what did I drop exactly? The work-around for the drc2 incompatibility. Where is it? Patrick the gatekeeper ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values?
John Doty writes: [...] The work-around for the drc2 incompatibility. Where is it? You remember that I am not the person proposing the initial patch, only one reviewer? Beside with the example I proposed, it is not an incompatibility, but merely a (valid) warning triggered by the new code. Of course it has to be addressed and that's why I mentionned it as part of my review. Patrick ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values?
On Jan 2, 2011, at 3:23 AM, Patrick Bernaud wrote: John Doty writes: [...] The work-around for the drc2 incompatibility. Where is it? You remember that I am not the person proposing the initial patch, only one reviewer? You did more than review: you thoroughly rewrote it in a way that makes it more difficult to read, repair, reuse, and override if needed. You dismissed factoring that helped put the back end writer in control as crippling the API. It seemed to me you wanted ownership of that code. You can have it if you want it. If not, I'll try to find time to finish it. The political difficulty of improving the factoring in this small area has me discouraged about any serious improvement in the flexibility of gnetlist. The existing back ends will constrain it to remain an unusually powerful and flexible tool within its box, but the box will never expand very much. In the meantime, at Noqsi Aerospace, we've been developing lambda-geda which is potentially a much more flexible schematic processor. Right now we use it for schematic to schematic transformations, but netlisting is certainly a potential application area. So that's where my focus will inevitably move in the future. Beside with the example I proposed, it is not an incompatibility, but merely a (valid) warning triggered by the new code. Of course it has to be addressed and that's why I mentionned it as part of my review. We agreed it has to be addressed, yes. But who should address it? --- John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. This message contains technical discussion involving difficult issues. No personal disrespect or malice is intended. If you perceive such, your perception is simply wrong. I'm a busy person, and in my business go along to get along causes mission failures and sometimes kills people, so I tend to be a bit blunt. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values?
John Doty writes: [...] We agreed it has to be addressed, yes. But who should address it? Since it was so kindly asked, I did: my full (and final as far as I am concerned) patch set for this issue follows this message (so our fellow readers will get a chance to understand what we are talking about). Note that the fix in gnet-drc2.scm will not survive long: 'drc2:check-slots' bitterly need to get a full rewrite (as we already discussed). And I will do that as soon as this issue is settled. Still, and as a side note, look how much beneficial a change from unknown to #f (as value for no- or unknown attribute) would be. Patrick ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values?
On Jan 2, 2011, at 10:18 AM, Patrick Bernaud wrote: Still, and as a side note, look how much beneficial a change from unknown to #f (as value for no- or unknown attribute) would be. Different layers. unknown is is the appropriate return when the back end will simply put the result in the output file. #f is the appropriate return when the back end will process the result. So, the high level factor, (gnetlist:get-package-attribute) should continue to yield unknown, but I would agree that it would be beneficial for the lower level (gnetlist:get-all-package-attributes) to yield #f. Although perhaps '() would be more consistent. --- John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. This message contains technical discussion involving difficult issues. No personal disrespect or malice is intended. If you perceive such, your perception is simply wrong. I'm a busy person, and in my business go along to get along causes mission failures and sometimes kills people, so I tend to be a bit blunt. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values.
Hi Kai-Martin, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of kai-martin knaak Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 4:32 AM To: geda-u...@seul.org Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values. Bert Timmerman wrote: ARE there any current gEDA developers? Yes, I think there is lots of patches or patch series in SF to prove that. For 2010 there were exactly 16 patches in the geda tracker: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=161080atid=818428 I wouldn't call this lots of. None of these patches was supplied by one of the people mentioned in gpleda.org/people.html ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 Sorry for the confusion, looks like I did not have the right glasses on, I made my remark w.r.t. the pcb patch tracker. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Friday 31 December 2010, John Doty wrote: I think we can all be friends. You are the one making enemies. Disagreement does not imply malice. In your case, it does. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Wed, 2010-12-29 at 13:18 -0700, John Doty wrote: Divorce gEDA from pcb. Create a schematic plugin for pcb, since that seems to be what pcb users want. The flexibility of the gschem/gnetlist flow is unnecessary to hobbyists. The current developers are dangerously pcb-centric. ARE there any current gEDA developers? That is slightly rhetorical, as I know Peter Brett is doing some thankless, but HUGELY important work on refactoring the gschem drawing code into a separate library. This library will be important to the project as it opens the possibilities for creating external previewers, thumbnailer's, library managers, command line printing tools etc.. which don't require gschem to render graphics. Some day I hope PCB can do this too. Peter has also done work on guile APIs recently. (I'll confess not to have followed that particularly closely, but it was not in any way PCB specific). Without offending anyone I hope, I think it would be fair to say there is ONE current gEDA developer, and I think you would struggle to point out anything detrimental Peter Brett has done to the project. His dedicated work on thankless tasks have helped keep things alive at a time when gEDA development has / had otherwise completely stagnated. (Yes, Peter B and I are friends, so I'm biased - but I think this all bore saying.) -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Dec 31, 2010, at 8:37 AM, Peter Clifton wrote: On Wed, 2010-12-29 at 13:18 -0700, John Doty wrote: Divorce gEDA from pcb. Create a schematic plugin for pcb, since that seems to be what pcb users want. The flexibility of the gschem/gnetlist flow is unnecessary to hobbyists. The current developers are dangerously pcb-centric. ARE there any current gEDA developers? That is slightly rhetorical, as I know Peter Brett is doing some thankless, but HUGELY important work on refactoring the gschem drawing code into a separate library. Yes, and I'm successfully running his branch here. This is indeed important. Go, Peter! This library will be important to the project as it opens the possibilities for creating external previewers, thumbnailer's, library managers, command line printing tools etc.. which don't require gschem to render graphics. Some day I hope PCB can do this too. Peter has also done work on guile APIs recently. (I'll confess not to have followed that particularly closely, but it was not in any way PCB specific). You think it wasn't, but the habit of thought that considers pcb as the only back end worth considering has colored it. In particular, we've sparred over the nature of the API: Peter doesn't understand that there is *no* invariant semantic processing suitable for all flows. The midlayer should start at parsed, unprocessed schematics. And as a gnetlist back-end writer, Peter's Guile code scares me. He avoids pure functional programming wherever possible in the name of efficiency. This is dangerous, as it is difficult for the user to anticipate where his side effects might bite if they reuse his code. As somewhat who grinds very large projects through gnetlist, I would be the first to ask for efficiency to be given priority if it was a significant problem. It isn't. But Peter also has some very good notions about Guile code. I recently took some of his suggestions as input to a refactoring of my Osmond back end. The whole thing collapsed to just 18 LOC, and I think his suggestions also improved readability despite my initial skepticism. Without offending anyone I hope, I think it would be fair to say there is ONE current gEDA developer, and I think you would struggle to point out anything detrimental Peter Brett has done to the project. Well, Peter, at least, thinks of you as a developer. And there's DJ, who is certainly influential, energetic, and brilliant, but has a dangerously narrow focus. Then there's Patrick Bernaud. Bas Gjeltes and I tried to contribute a patch for the attribute censorship bug, but Patrick grabbed it, unfactored my Guile code, found a problem that broke drc2, and then dropped it. Is Patrick a developer? At least, he's a gatekeeper. Maybe refactoring and fixing the drc2 bug will be my New Year's day project. Then we'll see if this problem can *ever* be solved. His dedicated work on thankless tasks have helped keep things alive at a time when gEDA development has / had otherwise completely stagnated. That kind of argument will never move me. There is no value to fixing what isn't broken. There's nothing wrong with stagnation of code in itself (the stagnation of TeX is a sign of near perfection). Peter's narrowly focused on code, not broadly focused on application. That has its good points, but also its dangers. Coding purely for code's sake on a toolkit that's in successful production use is not generally a good idea. Peter's current work must stand on the importance of refactoring as a means for resolving the conflicts between the various ways we use (and want to use) gEDA, I think. And I expect it will be a good thing by this criterion, but that won't come automatically. (Yes, Peter B and I are friends, so I'm biased - but I think this all bore saying.) I think we can all be friends. Disagreement does not imply malice. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values.
Bert Timmerman wrote: ARE there any current gEDA developers? Yes, I think there is lots of patches or patch series in SF to prove that. For 2010 there were exactly 16 patches in the geda tracker: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=161080atid=818428 I wouldn't call this lots of. None of these patches was supplied by one of the people mentioned in gpleda.org/people.html ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Sat, 25 Dec 2010 00:50:07 -0600 Vanessa Ezekowitz vanessaezekow...@gmail.com wrote: * If the part in question can usually be described by a single value, for the purposes of the signal flow in the schematic that is, then give it a default of value=0. That is bad. You have to think twice that is it a 0 Ohm resistor, or do I missed to attach normal value of that device? * If it is a discrete part that is specified entirely by its part number rather than a measurement, like a diode or a transistor, then pick a reasonable default; value=1N914 or value=2N. Again. Is it the default or real? Nobody knows. * If the part is something like a logic IC, use the standard name of the part in the fastest commonly available series for that particular gate; value=74F74 or value=74HCT245. * If none of these fits, then leave the value= attribute off entirely, since the user would have no choice but to get creative anyway. That will make gnetlist to crash! :-) Believe me I tried! I spent nights manually seeking for this. Don't do it. What I do is I keep my symbols light. Sometimes it doesn't even have pin-numbers! After I made my design, I update all my symbols, and attributes with an updater script, which pulls everything from a MySQL database. Levente -- Levente Kovacs http://levente.logonex.eu ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
John Doty j...@noqsi.com writes: A better netlister for simulation is difficult as long as the gnetlist front end has hard-coded semantics, especially for hierarchy and slotting. Last year (June 2009) LWN published a very nice series by Neil Brown about successful design pattern in the Linux kernel. A lot of that is applicable to any sizeable project. One pattern is to define (midlayer) interfaces like the gnetlist backend interface in terms of library functions. http://lwn.net/Articles/336262/ To fix gnetlist, the hardcoded semantics shall not be pushed to the backend, but offered as a library function, to be pulled in by the backend. The infrastructure provided by the library shall offer various levels to access the netlist data. The toplevel shall provide the current hardcoded semantics to the existing backends, but future backends may choose to use replace the top level call by copies where some critical second level calls are replaced. Such copies, when universally usefull, can be moved from the backend to the library at some point. Somebody who (unlike me) actually knows how that interface looks like right now, may comment on how much actually needs to change. I can imagine that it's not a lot, since this is really a classical case for said design pattern. -- Stephan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
2010/12/29 Levente Kovacs leventel...@gmail.com: On Sat, 25 Dec 2010 22:01:43 +0100 Johnny Rosenberg gurus.knugum-re5jqeeqqe8avxtiumw...@public.gmane.org wrote: Hm… I start to regret that I asked the question in the first place… We are very good at making wars. We make wars on what kind of fileformat to use, what kind of documentation tool to use, what is gschem used for etc. So don't regret it, it is getting common. Lets make a vi vs. emacs war! Yes, that's do that! He he he… Or maybe not… I used Emacs a lot in the early 1990's, especially for IRC and playing MUD an things like that, but these days I don't use any of them. I found that with a few plugins and some configuration, gedit does everything I need a text editor for, so far at least. Well, off topic in any case. Johnny Rosenberg Levente -- Levente Kovacs http://levente.logonex.eu ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Dec 29, 2010, at 6:23 AM, Stephan Boettcher wrote: John Doty j...@noqsi.com writes: A better netlister for simulation is difficult as long as the gnetlist front end has hard-coded semantics, especially for hierarchy and slotting. Last year (June 2009) LWN published a very nice series by Neil Brown about successful design pattern in the Linux kernel. A lot of that is applicable to any sizeable project. One pattern is to define (midlayer) interfaces like the gnetlist backend interface in terms of library functions. http://lwn.net/Articles/336262/ To fix gnetlist, the hardcoded semantics shall not be pushed to the backend, but offered as a library function, to be pulled in by the backend. The infrastructure provided by the library shall offer various levels to access the netlist data. The toplevel shall provide the current hardcoded semantics to the existing backends, but future backends may choose to use replace the top level call by copies where some critical second level calls are replaced. Such copies, when universally usefull, can be moved from the backend to the library at some point. Somebody who (unlike me) actually knows how that interface looks like right now, may comment on how much actually needs to change. Well, a typical net-centric flat netlist back end may conveniently grab a list of the nets it needs to process from the variable all-unique-nets, defined in gnetlist-post.scm. That's great, but in fact it's just a trivial extract from the primitive (gnetlist:get-all-unique-nets). Then, there's the primitive (gnetlist:get-all-nets) that doesn't check for uniqueness. So, while there's a bit of incipient pattern like you describe, it's not very deep, and it's strangely tangled. Why have *two* primitives here? *Neither* of them is really a primitive operation. At the very least (gnetlist:get-all-unique-nets) could be defined in terms of (gnetlist:get-all-nets). Then, why always invoke (gnetlist:get-all-unique-nets) to construct all-unique-nets whether it's needed or not? One answer here is that the front end has already done the heavy work beforehand, so it costs very little, but shouldn't the front end only be doing this on demand? I can imagine that it's not a lot, since this is really a classical case for said design pattern. The real difficulty here is the complexity of the Guile-C interface. The functions and data on the C side are accessible to the midlayer only to the extent that somebody does the (difficult) work of exporting them. The C front end is very procedural, performing much semantic processing regardless of whether the back end ever requests the results. Not a good match to the factored, functional approach. The existing API, despite all this chaos, is truly excellent for small-scale flat printed circuit board netlisting, and unusually extensible beyond that. But it falls down in places where it inappropriately inflicts the semantics of small-scale flat printed circuit board netlisting on different flows, especially DRC and simulation. I cannot think of *any* semantic processing of schematics that is universally appropriate for all flows. A truly well-factored gnetlist would thus have only one primitive function for processing schematics: parse a schematic file. The schematic semantics would all be in midlayer functions. The back end and other plugins could use these (or not) as needed. But that's a fair amount of work. At Noqsi, we're playing around with the beginnings of something like this at https://github.com/xcthulhu/lambda-geda. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Levente Kovacs leventel...@gmail.com writes: So don't regret it, it is getting common. I wish it weren't so common. Such wars are a pointless waste of time and serve only to drive valuable contributors away. Soon, the only people working on gEDA/PCB will be those who enjoy complaining, as there will be nobody left willing to wade through the bitter arguments and actually write code. So let me make this perfectly clear - if you're not willing to write code, your complaints about how others write code will fall on deaf ears. As far as I know, those of us who DO write code, do it for purely selfish reasons - we benefit from our own work. We've said this before, it should be no surprize to anyone. OTOH if you have suggestions on how to make gEDA/PCB better - easier to use, more functional, etc - feel free to voice them. If you can back them up with a solid design and usability models, that's even better. Discussions about the details and caveats are to be expected! But as soon as the discussion degrades into yet another bikeshedding, the instigators of said bikeshedding have lost all credibility with me. New users - ask your questions without regret. There are no bad questions. Harvest the answers that are useful and ignore the crap. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Dec 29, 2010, at 12:51 PM, Stephan Boettcher wrote: John Doty j...@noqsi.com writes: On Dec 29, 2010, at 6:23 AM, Stephan Boettcher wrote: I can imagine that it's not a lot, since this is really a classical case for said design pattern. The real difficulty here is the complexity of the Guile-C interface. The functions and data on the C side are accessible to the midlayer only to the extent that somebody does the (difficult) work of exporting them. The C front end is very procedural, performing much semantic processing regardless of whether the back end ever requests the results. Not a good match to the factored, functional approach. Than that is the interface that needs to be morphed according to the prescribed pattern: the C-Guile interface. And when that's the case, a clean C-API that can be exported to Guile, Python, Ruby, C++, Fortran, ... just dreaming. Will you settle for a clean Haskell API that can be exported to Scheme and Lua? Things get a bit eccentric when you have a logician coding for a physicist ;-) John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
As one of the principal troublemakers, let me comment. On Dec 29, 2010, at 11:18 AM, DJ Delorie wrote: Levente Kovacs leventel...@gmail.com writes: So don't regret it, it is getting common. I wish it weren't so common. Then show a real commitment to the toolkit, not just to pcb for hobbyists. Lip service to the idea that you won't damage the toolkit doesn't count. My own work flow has been damaged by thoughtless changes, most seriously by the promote footprints by default change. Such wars are a pointless waste of time and serve only to drive valuable contributors away. You assume contributions are good. But there's no bottom to worse. gEDA is pretty good as is: there are a lot more ways to damage it than improve it. If the current crop of developers actually used the tool to some approximation of its breadth of application, I'd feel much better. Soon, the only people working on gEDA/PCB will be those who enjoy complaining, as there will be nobody left willing to wade through the bitter arguments and actually write code. Those of us actually using the toolkit to its limits, and extending it with scripts and plugins, don't count in this valuation. But gEDA's unique strength lies there, I think. There are plenty of free/cheap alternatives for hobbyist use, but not so many when you really need the breadth of gEDA's capabilities. This doesn't mean I am opposed to hobbyists: indeed, much prototype/experimental work I do is functionally indistinguishable from a hobby approach, so the effectiveness of gEDA for such an approach is important to me personally. I hope we can welcome hobbyists, but I also hope we can avoid channeling the toolkit into hobbyist-specific flows. There's a difference. So let me make this perfectly clear - if you're not willing to write code, your complaints about how others write code will fall on deaf ears. How about complaints about how others *break* working flows? And could easily do so again in the future? As far as I know, those of us who DO write code, do it for purely selfish reasons - we benefit from our own work. We've said this before, it should be no surprize to anyone. OTOH if you have suggestions on how to make gEDA/PCB better - Divorce gEDA from pcb. Create a schematic plugin for pcb, since that seems to be what pcb users want. The flexibility of the gschem/gnetlist flow is unnecessary to hobbyists. The current developers are dangerously pcb-centric. easier to use, more functional, etc - feel free to voice them. If you can back them up with a solid design and usability models, that's even better. Discussions about the details and caveats are to be expected! Top-down thinking. Inappropriate for a toolkit with unlimited extensibility. The end point will be a tool, full of fat and sugar, useful only to hobbyists. One of the greatest resources for gEDA is gedasymbols.org. Thank you very much for setting that up. We can't agree on how good symbols should be constructed, but we can nevertheless share them. And it has grown beyond symbols and footprints to other sorts of add-ons. That's the way to proceed, I think: keep gEDA clean, lean, and mean, and solicit contributions that optionally extend it. The core developers should not be gatekeepers for features. This approach works very well for other free software: TeX, Perl, Python, ... The barriers to further grassroots improvement of gEDA are failures of factored, orthogonal design. The kind of suggestions you want are superficial. We already know where the source of gEDA's limitations lies: no more suggestions are required. Implementing suggested features piecemeal will only make the tool less flexible, more arcane, and more difficult to repair when repairs are needed. And if you're really serious about having more developers working on extending the toolkit, the benefits of bottom-up refactoring should be obvious. New users - ask your questions without regret. Yes. Please. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Dec 28, 2010, at 7:32 PM, John Griessen wrote: On 12/28/2010 06:21 PM, John Doty wrote: Well, the plug-in wasn't that difficult. Thanks for contributing some code John. I'm in the midst of a lot of obligations and low cash. I'll try to give it a look before January is gone. Well, I think it belongs on my gedasymbols page. It isn't core functionality: it's a special-purpose add-on, so it doesn't belong in the basic release. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 13:18:24 -0500 DJ Delorie d...@delorie.com wrote: I regret that I made that comment. I wish it weren't so common. Such wars are a pointless waste of time and serve only to drive valuable contributors away. Soon, the only people working on gEDA/PCB will be those who enjoy complaining, as there will be nobody left willing to wade through the bitter arguments and actually write code. I agree with you. But I think that it is a fact that there are lots of wars. We should really concentrate on work. So let me make this perfectly clear - if you're not willing to write code, your complaints about how others write code will fall on deaf ears. As far as I know, those of us who DO write code, do it for purely selfish reasons - we benefit from our own work. We've said this before, it should be no surprize to anyone. I think in an open source domain, users and code writers are pretty much the same. I consider myself a user, but there is code in PCB of mine. I've written a few scripts for gEDA/PCB as well. It is not much, I know. I am willing to write code, but I'm not good at code writing (Never tried it seriously though). OTOH if you have suggestions on how to make gEDA/PCB better - easier to use, more functional, etc - feel free to voice them. If you can back them up with a solid design and usability models, that's even better. Discussions about the details and caveats are to be expected! Yes! I meant war that I feel everyone dumps their experience, favourite tool, etc. without working the problem. But as soon as the discussion degrades into yet another bikeshedding, the instigators of said bikeshedding have lost all credibility with me. New users - ask your questions without regret. There are no bad questions. Harvest the answers that are useful and ignore the crap. Yes. The let us start a Vi vs. Emacs comment was a joke. -- Levente Kovacs http://levente.logonex.eu ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Setting it to zero by default could even be used to signal Gschem to add an extra highlight to those symbols bearing it. Yuck. Keep tools simple and clean. Agreed, but if you wanted a DRC highlighter, a ? highlighted would be a great thing to highlight. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Mon, Dec 27, 2010 at 3:56 AM, Vanessa Ezekowitz vanessaezekow...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, 26 Dec 2010 23:55:04 -0500 al davis ad...@freeelectron.net wrote: On Saturday 25 December 2010, Vanessa Ezekowitz wrote: * If the part in question can usually be described by a single value, for the purposes of the signal flow in the schematic that is, then give it a default of value=0. No. Zero is almost always wrong. Exactly my point - it is *supposed* to be wrong. I chose zero here because anyone who sees it in their schematic file should instantly think, Oops, I forgot to set the value of that part. From my own experience, it is easier to spot something that is visibly flat out wrong than to look for something that is just not there. Setting it to zero by default could even be used to signal Gschem to add an extra highlight to those symbols bearing it. Perhaps the default, highlight-sensitive string should be exactly 0.0 or some variation of that, since no sane user would type anything but a single 0 when they mean zero. No valid number should be used for a default in such a generic symbol. I use 0 ohm resistors often, they are stuffing shorts. a default of ? is obvious, it clearly shows a value that has not been assigned. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 13:24:18 +0100 Levente Kovacs leventel...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, 25 Dec 2010 00:50:07 -0600 Vanessa Ezekowitz vanessaezekow...@gmail.com wrote: * If the part in question can usually be described by a single value, for the purposes of the signal flow in the schematic that is, then give it a default of value=0. That is bad. You have to think twice that is it a 0 Ohm resistor, or do I missed to attach normal value of that device? True, which is why I later suggested using a string like 0.0 - something that no one would deliberately type. Then the computer could use that as a trigger to highlight the symbol or whatever. * If it is a discrete part that is specified entirely by its part number rather than a measurement, like a diode or a transistor, then pick a reasonable default; value=1N914 or value=2N. Again. Is it the default or real? Nobody knows. The idea was to save some work for the majority of use cases (assume for the moment the most popular parts as defaults, rather than the ones I mentioned above). Default or not, the string would still be valid - it remains the responsibility of the user to decide if his or her schematic specifies the right parts. * If none of these fits, then leave the value= attribute off entirely, since the user would have no choice but to get creative anyway. That will make gnetlist to crash! :-) Believe me I tried! I spent nights manually seeking for this. Don't do it. In that case, gnetlist should be crashing all the time, since the current symbol library is pretty much devoid of this attribute now. I'm suggesting, in this instance, that symbols that meet this condition simply remain as they are today (don't add or remove anything from the symbols). -- There are some things in life worth obsessing over. Most things aren't, and when you learn that, life improves. http://starbase.globalpc.net/~ezekowitz Vanessa Ezekowitz vanessaezekow...@gmail.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Dec 27, 2010, at 8:41 AM, John Griessen wrote: On 12/27/2010 08:43 AM, John Doty wrote: Perhaps we need a real gnucap back end with this property? Or a plug-in that does this? Sure, send some rent money and I'll create and test it within two months. Well, the plug-in wasn't that difficult. refdes-for-undefined-value.scm Description: Binary data Usage: gnetlist -m refdes-for-undefined-value.scm A better netlister for simulation is difficult as long as the gnetlist front end has hard-coded semantics, especially for hierarchy and slotting. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On 12/28/2010 06:21 PM, John Doty wrote: Well, the plug-in wasn't that difficult. Thanks for contributing some code John. I'm in the midst of a lot of obligations and low cash. I'll try to give it a look before January is gone. JG ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Sun, 26 Dec 2010 23:55:04 -0500 al davis ad...@freeelectron.net wrote: On Saturday 25 December 2010, Vanessa Ezekowitz wrote: * If the part in question can usually be described by a single value, for the purposes of the signal flow in the schematic that is, then give it a default of value=0. No. Zero is almost always wrong. Exactly my point - it is *supposed* to be wrong. I chose zero here because anyone who sees it in their schematic file should instantly think, Oops, I forgot to set the value of that part. From my own experience, it is easier to spot something that is visibly flat out wrong than to look for something that is just not there. Setting it to zero by default could even be used to signal Gschem to add an extra highlight to those symbols bearing it. Perhaps the default, highlight-sensitive string should be exactly 0.0 or some variation of that, since no sane user would type anything but a single 0 when they mean zero. The only sensible default value in this case is a copy of the reference designator. No, that's wrong too. If I wanted to see the refdes's, I'd keep PCB in that view mode instead of putting it in value mode, and in the schematic, doing this would just lead to doubled refdes's everywhere initially, which could get confusing in densely packed schematics. Justification ... For simulation, all modern simulators, and some not-so-modern simulators have a means of assigning values to parameters. In a spice format, you could say: .param R1=10k or something like that. Some let you use parameters in other ways, making it even more useful. Where does this tie in with what default the symbol might have in its value= attribute? If you're directly assigning that 10K value to R1 within your spice code using its refdes as the basis for the assignment, then it seems to me you're already overriding whatever value was specified in the Gschem schematic and/or the symbol library. * If it is a discrete part that is specified entirely by its part number rather than a measurement, like a diode or a transistor, then pick a reasonable default; value=1N914 or value=2N. As I recall, those are specific devices that were popular 40 years ago. Not sure how relevant they are today. Unless you link to something, they are just arbitrary strings, no better than any other. I mentioned the 2N and 1N914 because they are easy to use and easy to find. Being general purpose components, they make excellent teaching aids, and I use them myself from time to time for the occasional LED driver or small signal amp (nothing big by anyone's standards here). That said, the examples I gave could have applied to any of a hundred other part classes, though. Would my argument been any different if I'd named some modern power MOSFET or the latest Atmel microcontroller instead? Discrete transistors aren't as popular as they were a few decades ago in computer technology, but they are still in common use in the analog world (power supplies, amplifiers, radios, telephones, hobby electronics). If my suggestions aren't to peoples' liking, then try something a little more logical: if you don't want to go with something well known for a given symbol's default because that something is too old or outdated, then at least go with whatever is the number one selling item in that class (as measured by end-user distributors like Radio Shack rather than wholesalers and manufacturers). You're virtually guaranteed to get it right most of the time that way. The best default would be something that is more universally meaningful, and not specificm like D or diode for a diode, or NPN for an NPN transistor. If that were the case then there's no point at all, because the symbol file itself, by definition, already tells you what it is. You (and the simulator) already you're using a diode or an NPN transistor or whatever by virtue of the fact that you chose to instantiate the symbols for those parts. The original poster was asking about adding values to resistor symbols so that they show R1 and 10k on the schematic diagram only. I was expanding on that idea to handle named parts as well - what *kind* of diode or transistor the PCB will end up having stuffed into it at build time. Since value= has no meaning at all with such things, I suggested it be re-purposed in those cases. For a simulator that reads spice format, you could then say: .model D D .model NPN NPN to make the names meaningful. It might be useful to make an include file to define these things. I'd say that one would need to know precisely what kind of transistor one is using in a circuit before a simulation begins, or it may end up with invalid results. I don't know whether the value= attribute is the right place to put that information, but I can't think of a better place. * If the part is something like a logic IC, use the standard name of the part in
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Dec 27, 2010, at 3:56 AM, Vanessa Ezekowitz wrote: On Sun, 26 Dec 2010 23:55:04 -0500 al davis ad...@freeelectron.net wrote: On Saturday 25 December 2010, Vanessa Ezekowitz wrote: * If the part in question can usually be described by a single value, for the purposes of the signal flow in the schematic that is, then give it a default of value=0. No. Zero is almost always wrong. Exactly my point - it is *supposed* to be wrong. But *I* use 0 as a value rather frequently. Depends on what you're doing with the toolkit. I chose zero here because anyone who sees it in their schematic file should instantly think, Oops, I forgot to set the value of that part. From my own experience, it is easier to spot something that is visibly flat out wrong than to look for something that is just not there. Then make a library with symbols like that. Don't expect others to agree that it's the right way to go. Don't change the default library, because that will break many things. Setting it to zero by default could even be used to signal Gschem to add an extra highlight to those symbols bearing it. Yuck. Keep tools simple and clean. Perhaps the default, highlight-sensitive string should be exactly 0.0 or some variation of that, since no sane user would type anything but a single 0 when they mean zero. Your definition of sane appears to be very self-centered. The only sensible default value in this case is a copy of the reference designator. No, that's wrong too. If I wanted to see the refdes's, I'd keep PCB in that view mode instead of putting it in value mode, Al's talking about simulation, not pcb. and in the schematic, doing this would just lead to doubled refdes's everywhere initially, which could get confusing in densely packed schematics. That's a reason why my Mathematica back end substitutes the refdes for the value in the model if the value is absent. Perhaps we need a real gnucap back end with this property? Or a plug-in that does this? Justification ... For simulation, all modern simulators, and some not-so-modern simulators have a means of assigning values to parameters. In a spice format, you could say: .param R1=10k or something like that. Some let you use parameters in other ways, making it even more useful. Where does this tie in with what default the symbol might have in its value= attribute? If you're directly assigning that 10K value to R1 within your spice code using its refdes as the basis for the assignment, then it seems to me you're already overriding whatever value was specified in the Gschem schematic and/or the symbol library. But you have to construct the netlist in a way that allows that. Is the value of R1 a constant or a parameter? Attributes in the schematic control this. * If it is a discrete part that is specified entirely by its part number rather than a measurement, like a diode or a transistor, then pick a reasonable default; value=1N914 or value=2N. As I recall, those are specific devices that were popular 40 years ago. Not sure how relevant they are today. Unless you link to something, they are just arbitrary strings, no better than any other. I mentioned the 2N and 1N914 because they are easy to use and easy to find. Being general purpose components, they make excellent teaching aids, and I use them myself from time to time for the occasional LED driver or small signal amp (nothing big by anyone's standards here). That said, the examples I gave could have applied to any of a hundred other part classes, though. Would my argument been any different if I'd named some modern power MOSFET or the latest Atmel microcontroller instead? Discrete transistors aren't as popular as they were a few decades ago in computer technology, but they are still in common use in the analog world (power supplies, amplifiers, radios, telephones, hobby electronics). If my suggestions aren't to peoples' liking, then try something a little more logical: if you don't want to go with something well known for a given symbol's default because that something is too old or outdated, then at least go with whatever is the number one selling item in that class (as measured by end-user distributors like Radio Shack rather than wholesalers and manufacturers). You're virtually guaranteed to get it right most of the time that way. Why don't you just make a library that fits your prejudices rather than trying to force them on everybody else? The best default would be something that is more universally meaningful, and not specificm like D or diode for a diode, or NPN for an NPN transistor. If that were the case then there's no point at all, because the symbol file itself, by definition, already tells you what it is. You (and the simulator) already you're using a diode or an NPN transistor or whatever by virtue of the fact that you chose to
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On 12/27/2010 08:43 AM, John Doty wrote: Perhaps we need a real gnucap back end with this property? Or a plug-in that does this? Sure, send some rent money and I'll create and test it within two months. John ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Mon, 2010-12-27 at 09:43 -0500, John Doty wrote: On Dec 27, 2010, at 3:56 AM, Vanessa Ezekowitz wrote: On Sun, 26 Dec 2010 23:55:04 -0500 al davis ad...@freeelectron.net wrote: On Saturday 25 December 2010, Vanessa Ezekowitz wrote: * If the part in question can usually be described by a single value, for the purposes of the signal flow in the schematic that is, then give it a default of value=0. No. Zero is almost always wrong. Exactly my point - it is *supposed* to be wrong. But *I* use 0 as a value rather frequently. Depends on what you're doing with the toolkit. Likewise.. I often use zero ohms resistor links to act as placeholders were resistor might be required for slowing down edges, or isolating a signal for probing. Any default should be blank, or an invalid value. ? would work, but I'm not going to paint this particular shed any further. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On 12/27/2010 02:56 AM, Vanessa Ezekowitz wrote: No. Zero is almost always wrong. Exactly my point - it is*supposed* to be wrong. The only sensible default value in this case is a copy of the reference designator. No, that's wrong too. This seems like one of those cases where more than one set of defaults is needed, along with some documentation. The first wave of documentation is always a how-to-start, so the very first level default set has to support that, and if it is good, it will have a simulation to run from it, and a pcb drawn from it, even if that needs two slightly different schematics to accomplish that purpose. John ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values???
Hi all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of ge...@igor2.repo.hu Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2010 7:06 AM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values??? On Sat, Dec 25, 2010 at 09:23:17PM -0500, Mark wrote: snip So, because I use several methods, a single one-size-fits-all library is just not going to work for me. I *could* make use of a library of heavy symbols but I still need the lightweight symbols, too. If I was forced to choose one library then I would like to keep the lightweight stuff. Maybe we should extend existing library in a way that we clone existing symbols, prefix the names by use case and add/delete attributes. Since the currently available library wouldn't change at all, no existing schematics would be broken. We now have resistor-1.sym and resistor-2.sym; we woulg then have these cloned as _P_resistor-1.sym and _P_resistor-2.sym, _P_ meaning they are intended for use on PCB. Of course, this would increase the confusion of new users, but it should be no harder than getting the L/N/M suffix of some SMD footpritns in PCB. Regards, Tibor Palinkas Or a symbol with a name which goes something like: resistor-4pcb.sym resistor-4pcb-1.sym drawn in Imperial style. resistor-4pcb-2.sym drawn in European style. resistor-4pcb-zerolengthpins-1.sym drawn in Imperial style, with zero length pins. resistor-4pcb-zerolengthpins-2.sym drawn in European style, with zero length pins. The possibilites are endless as gschem offers great flexibility ;-) IMHO Users should take care of the needed content for thier own purposes, the gEDA suite itself only has to offer a basic set of symbols/footprints to get users started, and encourage sharing content on gedasymbols.org. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Sat, 25 Dec 2010 12:44:54 -0500 John Doty j...@noqsi.com wrote: Often, perhaps, but not usually. No matter how you slice it, the most common way to use such a symbol and its corresponding physical representation is as a component on a circuit board or in an IC. Maybe for you. But gEDA isn't limited to that kind of flow. I pray that it will remain flexible, not specific to any particular kind of flow. Flexibility and specific applicability are not mutually exclusive, and for the very reasons you are citing here. Just as you can use gEDA and related tools to create VLSI designs, I can use it to create ordinary circuit boards - but the two capabilities only exist because someone had to add those specific, specialized features. When I edit an HTML file, I use an editor with syntax highlighting for that language because I find it very handy (provided the colors are readable). That doesn't mean the text editor is an HTML editor, per se. If someone were to come along and add syntax highlighting for, say, Python, C, Ruby, or any of the dozens of other languages out there, it wouldn't change the fact that it still highlights HTML, would it? Now suppose someone else comes along and adds a feature that can optionally turn those highlighting modes into actual edit-assist modes, making the text editor into an actual mini HTML/Python/C/... editor. What has changed? Stop trying to change the subject - this is not about simulation or VLSI design, Yes it is. It is extremely important that gEDA remain the excellent tool for these jobs that it is. Look at the Subject: field in the header of this thread as started by the original poster. Does it not say resistor values ? If the presence of a value= attribute is of no use to you, then *ignore it*. If the absence of a value= attribute is a problem for you, attach one. Even if it's present, it's likely to be wrong, so you have about the same amount of work to do in any case. But getting rid of it is somewhat more work, especially in existing schematics that assume its absence. The point here isn't to get *rid* of useless attributes - the point is to outright ignore them. If your setup is such that these value= attributes cause problems, I submit that the problem is not in the presence of these attributes, but in your workflow. You've become accustomed to a certain pattern and have not planned far enough ahead to account for relatively minor changes. The existence of something does not imply the requirement to use it. gschem/gnetlist are excellent tools for schematic capture for VLSI, symbolic analysis, and simulation. And they will continue to be. They won't if the attitude of I don't care to know about any flow except pcb, and all I want is my version of the pcb flow isn't vigorously opposed. Nor will they be if you continue with your attitude of I don't care about any workflow other than VLSI simulation. The project needs to be able to cater to both as well as it can, even if that means the users need to make minor changes to the way they use it. Maybe in your line of work that can be the case, but I submit that the vast majority of users of these types of tools do not make the same comparisons you do. Ah yes, the tyranny of the majority. But I'm here because gEDA is far more flexible and productive than the competition. I guess all the other gnetlist back end writers contributed for the same reason. You confuse a request for a feature (or in this case, a request for a modified default) with the desire to eliminate some feature you find critical. One does not have to imply the other, and a good programmer is more than capable of accomplishing this with most any two such features. Tyranny of the majority is a concept for the politics and philosophy classes, not for software projects. You and I both know that R1 is not meant to have the same meaning as the 10k written below it in a schematic, and that's what each of our respective instructors taught. Ah, but in pure symbolic analysis there is no 10k. There are only equations like r1*c1==4*r2*c2. And your point is? You're writing formulas with refdes's, not value= entries. No matter how complicated your resistor formula are - sooner or later, those equations HAVE to boil down to some number of ohms or your circuit isn't going to do what it should. I started with vacuum tubes and point-to-point wiring. You can't go from there to VLSI without changing a lot of thinking. Which means you should have the same understanding as I have of the fundamentals of circuit design (though I've gotten somewhat rusty at basic analog stuff). I assume you do, otherwise this discussion would have no hope of a meaningful resolution. If you only use gschem/gnetlist to feed pcb, you will have a severely limited perception of their true capabilities, and the genius behind their design. Perhaps you mean you
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Dec 26, 2010, at 4:14 AM, Vanessa Ezekowitz wrote: On Sat, 25 Dec 2010 12:44:54 -0500 John Doty j...@noqsi.com wrote: Often, perhaps, but not usually. No matter how you slice it, the most common way to use such a symbol and its corresponding physical representation is as a component on a circuit board or in an IC. Maybe for you. But gEDA isn't limited to that kind of flow. I pray that it will remain flexible, not specific to any particular kind of flow. Flexibility and specific applicability are not mutually exclusive, and for the very reasons you are citing here. True, but what makes this possible? It's *avoiding* specificity in the foundations. If your setup is such that these value= attributes cause problems, I submit that the problem is not in the presence of these attributes, but in your workflow. You've become accustomed to a certain pattern and have not planned far enough ahead to account for relatively minor changes. I used the existing library symbols as they were. The fundamental logic of the library design in gEDA is that semantics should not change, because that can break existing designs. But it's easy to make specialized libraries, so that's the solution. I do not call putting in an attribute that triggers special processing in many back ends a relatively minor change. The existence of something does not imply the requirement to use it. gschem/gnetlist are excellent tools for schematic capture for VLSI, symbolic analysis, and simulation. And they will continue to be. They won't if the attitude of I don't care to know about any flow except pcb, and all I want is my version of the pcb flow isn't vigorously opposed. Nor will they be if you continue with your attitude of I don't care about any workflow other than VLSI simulation. What??? Of course I care about a wide variety of flows, including (several) printed circuit flows. I have contributed two printed circuit back ends for gnetlist to the gEDA project. The project needs to be able to cater to both as well as it can, even if that means the users need to make minor changes to the way they use it. Fixing problems in a library of schematics going back eight years isn't minor. I frequently reuse schematics. When reusing a symbolic analysis schematic, an unnoticed value=0 attribute could cause serious problems. You confuse a request for a feature (or in this case, a request for a modified default) with the desire to eliminate some feature you find critical. Once the default is in use, it *is* a critical feature to those who have used it. Changing it breaks things. And your point is? You're writing formulas with refdes's, not value= entries. Depends. If I want to set a constant value in the schematic rather than leaving it variable, value= fixes it. Does that not make sense? No matter how complicated your resistor formula are - sooner or later, those equations HAVE to boil down to some number of ohms or your circuit isn't going to do what it should. But that happens later. A schematic for symbolic analysis is like a textbook abstraction: idealized components of infinite dynamic range with power coming out of nowhere. The resulting equations drive component value selection in a more realistic schematic downstream. A nice simple text editor is a good thing. Versatile. A WYSIWYG word processor is much less versatile. How so? Name me one thing a simple text editor can do that a properly-written WYSIWYG word processor supposedly cannot. Not waste your time with endless point and click. Clearly separate content from markup, thereby putting the user in control. Ah, the tyranny of the majority again. All we are proposing here is adding some reasonable, sane defaults for things like value - things you can ignore if they aren't useful to your particular work. If you add a value= attribute to resistor-1.sym it will break most of my symbolic analysis schematics because of the inheritance rules. The presence of specific values overrides the default of use the refdes symbolically. If you don't set up your work environment so that it can grow along with and adapt to changes in the tools that it uses, you are just begging for trouble. The way to grow gEDA is by adding optional modules: new libraries, back ends, scripts. Changes to the core should maintain compatibility with existing designs. Additions to the core API could facilitate new kinds of add-ons. If your rules get broken by simply adding an attribute that is normally absent, then you need to fix your setup to not depend on it, rather than trying to force the software to leave out the offending attribute. Who said anything about forcing the software to leave it out? The software should put it in if it's in the symbol, leave it out if it's not. If the symbol is wrong (and most are no doubt wrong in the context of any specific flow), create a *new* symbol. Every
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Flexibility and specific applicability are not mutually exclusive, and for the very reasons you are citing here. True, but what makes this possible? It's *avoiding* specificity in the foundations. I find that statement odd. If the foundation is not well specified then it is not a foundation at all, it is jello. I'm curious about how exacting the specifications are for your space projects? Here is an interesting document on specifying software from NASA: http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/doctree/871913.pdf The focus of this document is on analysis, development, and assurance of safety-critical software, including firmware (e.g. software residing in non-volatile memory, such as ROM, EPROM, EEPROM, or flash memory) and programmable logic. This document also discusses issues with contractor-developed software. It provides guidance on how to address creation and assurance of safety-critical software within the overall software development, management, risk management, and assurance activities. While gEDA and friends might not be considered 'safety-critical' by many, there is no reason good software disciplines should not be used, including good detailed specifications at all levels. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Dec 26, 2010, at 3:12 PM, Bob Paddock wrote: Flexibility and specific applicability are not mutually exclusive, and for the very reasons you are citing here. True, but what makes this possible? It's *avoiding* specificity in the foundations. I find that statement odd. If the foundation is not well specified then it is not a foundation at all, it is jello. Foundations must be well defined, yes. Sin[x] is an extremely well defined function, but it is not *specific* to any application. I'm curious about how exacting the specifications are for your space projects? They tend to start sloppy, because these are research projects, and if we knew what we would find, it wouldn't be research ;-) Part of the trick to a good project here is to be as agnostic as possible about what you might see. Avoid the tunnel vision of specific expectations, but at the same time create a solid, extremely well defined foundation. One of my proudest career achievements is the flexible data acquisition system (EDS) for the RXTE mission (http://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/xte/abc/pca_issues.html#struc). In the early planning, the data acquisition system architecture was a fine example of top-down design from notions of what the observing program might be. In other words, it reflected our ignorance of what was actually going on in the x-ray sky. It had a complex collection of specialized modes crafted to answering specific scientific questions. But a couple of us were disturbed by this. We came up with a parameterized architecture that could cover all of the kinds of observations that were contemplated, as well as crazy configurations that were generally considered useless. One crazy configuration was to reduce the number of bits/photon to one, and thereby achieve two orders of magnitude better time resolution than most people thought necessary while staying within data transmission restrictions. I'm told that this has been the most common configuration. Give people capability, they figure out how to use it! But give them what they say they want, they'll use it once, discover that they really wanted more than they said. RXTE's greatest discovery has been the extremely rapid rotation (~600 Hz!) of neutron stars in accreting binary systems. As originally conceived, with modes specifically targeted to what people wanted, RXTE could not have discovered this. But it not only made the discovery but spent much time (partially) unravelling what's going on here. The lesson is: don't be too specific about your desires when designing a tool. Instead, design the tool to cover the widest possible space with the smallest number of features. Then you can really go places. Here is an interesting document on specifying software from NASA: http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/doctree/871913.pdf The focus of this document is on analysis, development, and assurance of safety-critical software, including firmware (e.g. software residing in non-volatile memory, such as ROM, EPROM, EEPROM, or flash memory) and programmable logic. This document also discusses issues with contractor-developed software. It provides guidance on how to address creation and assurance of safety-critical software within the overall software development, management, risk management, and assurance activities. But the real truth is that RQA in NASA focuses on deflecting blame from management. We have rigorous bureaucratic procedures hiding endemic sloppy thinking. This costs massive amounts of money, and sometimes kills people. While gEDA and friends might not be considered 'safety-critical' by many, there is no reason good software disciplines should not be used, including good detailed specifications at all levels. But a toolkit should avoid overly specific targets within the application space. Cover the space with simple tools rather than implementing ad hoc complexity for specific purposes. That makes for a *more* solid foundation. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
John Doty j...@noqsi.com writes: One crazy configuration was to reduce the number of bits/photon to one, and thereby achieve two orders of magnitude better time resolution than most people thought necessary while staying within data transmission restrictions. I'm told that this has been the most common configuration. Give people capability, they figure out how to use it! But give them what they say they want, they'll use it once, discover that they really wanted more than they said. There has never been a physics experiment where any excess time resolution did not lead to usefull discoveries. But the real truth is that RQA in NASA focuses on deflecting blame from management. We have rigorous bureaucratic procedures hiding endemic sloppy thinking. This costs massive amounts of money, thus feeding the economy, and people, and sometimes kills people. well, nothing is for free. You are lucky to work for NASA projects. With ESA this overhead is trippled, and European multinational politics mixed in. All the NASA QA, reviews, and stuff were annoying at first, but in the end there always were smart people asking the right questions at the right time to the right people. With ESA, its bureaucrats running though questionnaires they do not understand, that cannot be answered because they do not apply to the phase the project is in. Most important is to make sure each nation gets its fair share of the pie. Here in town, at the Baltic Sea, we have a board house that makes military grade PCBs. Their boards were passing NASA inspection with flying colors, and are about to be launched to Mars. When we asked this board house about prototypes for an ESA mission, they told us they will not do any business with us for ESA projects. Period. Impossible. The overhead kills it. -- Stephan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Dec 26, 2010, at 5:25 PM, Stephan Boettcher wrote: All the NASA QA, reviews, and stuff were annoying at first, but in the end there always were smart people asking the right questions at the right time to the right people. Well, you've had better luck than I have. In three decades of doing this stuff, I have never seen a NASA design reviewer correctly identify a real problem. The set of real problems has always been disjoint from the supposed problems the reviewers worried about. But when I was at MIT, our internal reviews were much better. Not management theater like the NASA reviews. It's a bit frightening to be a freelancer without that resource to call on. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Saturday 25 December 2010, Vanessa Ezekowitz wrote: * If the part in question can usually be described by a single value, for the purposes of the signal flow in the schematic that is, then give it a default of value=0. No. Zero is almost always wrong. The only sensible default value in this case is a copy of the reference designator. If the reference designator is R1, the default value should be R1. Justification ... For simulation, all modern simulators, and some not-so-modern simulators have a means of assigning values to parameters. In a spice format, you could say: .param R1=10k or something like that. Some let you use parameters in other ways, making it even more useful. * If it is a discrete part that is specified entirely by its part number rather than a measurement, like a diode or a transistor, then pick a reasonable default; value=1N914 or value=2N. As I recall, those are specific devices that were popular 40 years ago. Not sure how relevant they are today. Unless you link to something, they are just arbitrary strings, no better than any other. The best default would be something that is more universally meaningful, and not specificm like D or diode for a diode, or NPN for an NPN transistor. For a simulator that reads spice format, you could then say: .model D D .model NPN NPN to make the names meaningful. It might be useful to make an include file to define these things. * If the part is something like a logic IC, use the standard name of the part in the fastest commonly available series for that particular gate; value=74F74 or value=74HCT245. Same as diodes. Names like 74F74 have no meaning, unless you look it up, and are completely wrong most of the time. * If none of these fits, then leave the value= attribute off entirely, since the user would have no choice but to get creative anyway. The point here is that every one of the component types in question has a value, therefore the value= field will end up being utilized by nearly everyone who instantiates the symbol for that component. Otherwise, schematics with a lot of such symbols become nearly impossible to read, let alone debug. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Johnny Rosenberg wrote: Now I'd like to save my ”new” symbol somewhere. If you added the attribute in the schematics (the document with the title block), you did not create a new symbol. You just attached an attribute to an instance of the symbol. To really change and save a symbol, you'd: 1) open the symbol with gschem (rather than open a schematic and place a symbol) 2) make your changes 3) save to some path 4) Make sure, that this path is read by gschem on start-up. For example by putting lines like these into your local $HOME/.gEDA/gafrc /--- ; Allow to source symbols from the local copy of geda-symbols (define gedasymbols /home/kmk/geda/gedasymbols/www/user/kai_martin_knaak/symbols) (component-library (build-path gedasymbols titleblock)) \-- or more simple like: / (component-library PATH_TO_THE_DIR_WITH_YOUR_SYMBOLS) \ ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Dec 25, 2010, at 1:50 AM, Vanessa Ezekowitz wrote: Resistors are just one of many component types out there have a value, no matter what type of package they come in Resistors often don't come in packages. I use resistors in VLSI design, and textbook symbolic abstractions of resistors also have no packages. Then there's simulation, where it is usually unnecessary to simulate the package even if it will exist someday. gschem/gnetlist are excellent tools for schematic capture for VLSI, symbolic analysis, and simulation. - with rare exceptions, every single one of them you pick up will have numbers or color bands indicating that value, we all know that. That value might be zero ohms, but it is still a *value*. By convention, in symbolic analysis of circuits, the value is the same as the refdes. So no value attribute is needed. The same goes for every last capacitor, inductor, etc., though I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any that have a value of zero. Maybe you're hard-pressed here, but I am not. I often set values to zero when analyzing or simulating circuits. Limiting cases, y'know. Sometimes I even use negative numbers. If you only use gschem/gnetlist to feed pcb, you will have a severely limited perception of their true capabilities, and the genius behind their design. It would be great if pcb users would pool their resources and create a library specifically for a common pcb flow. But it will never happen. Even in that small corner of the vast gEDA universe there are still widely divergent notions of flow and style. So almost everybody will continue to fight the toolkit and complain. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
John Doty j...@noqsi.com writes: Often, perhaps, but not usually. No matter how you slice it, the most common way to use such a symbol and its corresponding physical representation is as a component on a circuit board or in an IC. Maybe for you. Your opinion doesn't change the statistics. gEDA is most often used to design circuit boards. Yes it is. It is extremely important that gEDA remain the excellent tool for these jobs that it is. Extremely? Not at all. It's only as as important as the people willing to work on it make it. If the absence of a value= attribute is a problem for you, attach one. Even if it's present, it's likely to be wrong, so you have about the same amount of work to do in any case. But getting rid of it is somewhat more work, especially in existing schematics that assume its absence. The presence of an empty value= label still serves a purpose - it stores the position information so that the designer doesn't have to manually move N copies of value= for every resistor. They won't if the attitude of I don't care to know about any flow except pcb, and all I want is my version of the pcb flow isn't vigorously opposed. You've yet to prove that that attitude actually exists. Ah, the tyranny of the majority again. Yup, we're tyrants because we want to make it easier for 99% of our users to get their jobs done. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Dec 25, 2010, at 12:49 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: John Doty j...@noqsi.com writes: Often, perhaps, but not usually. No matter how you slice it, the most common way to use such a symbol and its corresponding physical representation is as a component on a circuit board or in an IC. Maybe for you. Your opinion doesn't change the statistics. gEDA is most often used to design circuit boards. The tyranny of the majority, again. Yes it is. It is extremely important that gEDA remain the excellent tool for these jobs that it is. Extremely? Not at all. It's only as as important as the people willing to work on it make it. Maybe to you gEDA is just one of the crowd of hobbyist EDA tools. It is much more to me. They won't if the attitude of I don't care to know about any flow except pcb, and all I want is my version of the pcb flow isn't vigorously opposed. You've yet to prove that that attitude actually exists. I'm still cleaning up from the mess created when the default attribute promotion policy was changed a couple of years ago, apparently to better serve the perceived needs of small scale pcb projects. It's easy to fix in gafrc, but you had to know to do it before populating your schems with unwanted promoted footprints. Some developer just wasn't thinking about the breadth of the application space. Yup, we're tyrants because we want to make it easier for 99% of our users to get their jobs done. But you aren't. A special purpose pcb-centric symbol/footprint library would be a fine substitute for the eclectic default library. For those users who would do better with it, it would be here, install this. But nobody's done that. Changing the default library piecemeal won't solve the problem, and will break things. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Den 2010-12-25 20:59:14 skrev John Doty j...@noqsi.com: On Dec 25, 2010, at 12:49 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: John Doty j...@noqsi.com writes: Often, perhaps, but not usually. No matter how you slice it, the most common way to use such a symbol and its corresponding physical representation is as a component on a circuit board or in an IC. Maybe for you. Your opinion doesn't change the statistics. gEDA is most often used to design circuit boards. The tyranny of the majority, again. Yes it is. It is extremely important that gEDA remain the excellent tool for these jobs that it is. Extremely? Not at all. It's only as as important as the people willing to work on it make it. Maybe to you gEDA is just one of the crowd of hobbyist EDA tools. It is much more to me. They won't if the attitude of I don't care to know about any flow except pcb, and all I want is my version of the pcb flow isn't vigorously opposed. You've yet to prove that that attitude actually exists. I'm still cleaning up from the mess created when the default attribute promotion policy was changed a couple of years ago, apparently to better serve the perceived needs of small scale pcb projects. It's easy to fix in gafrc, but you had to know to do it before populating your schems with unwanted promoted footprints. Some developer just wasn't thinking about the breadth of the application space. Yup, we're tyrants because we want to make it easier for 99% of our users to get their jobs done. But you aren't. A special purpose pcb-centric symbol/footprint library would be a fine substitute for the eclectic default library. For those users who would do better with it, it would be here, install this. But nobody's done that. Changing the default library piecemeal won't solve the problem, and will break things. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com Hm… I start to regret that I asked the question in the first place… -- Kind regards Johnny Rosenberg ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Johnny Rosenberg gurus.knu...@gmail.com writes: Hm… I start to regret that I asked the question in the first place… Please don't. -- Stephan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Den 2010-12-25 22:12:40 skrev Stephan Boettcher boettc...@physik.uni-kiel.de: Johnny Rosenberg gurus.knu...@gmail.com writes: Hm… I start to regret that I asked the question in the first place… Please don't. Well, I guess it's not regrettable anyway; the question is already asked and I think I also got a couple of great answers, thank you all for that. After being a member of this list for only a couple of days it already feels like this is a good place to ask questions. Quick and helpful answers are always appreciated. I am a member of quite a few lists by now, like Ubuntu, a couple of OpenOffice.org lists, GIMP, EasyTAG and more. Some of them are very dead, but this one seems to be alive, which is nice. I know I am probably the ”newest” guy here so I don't think that anyone will listen to me that much, but can we at least keep the ”wars” in separate threads? And thanks again, all of you, for many great answers. -- Kind regards Johnny Rosenberg ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Dec 25, 2010, at 4:01 PM, Johnny Rosenberg wrote: Hm… I start to regret that I asked the question in the first place… No need to regret it. It was a good question. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
I see the need for something akin to a preferred default positioning, where when a symbol is rotated there is a place where your prefer your attributes to be placed. Have geschem do the auto place template not part of the symbols at all Steve On Dec 25, 2010, at 4:48 PM, John Doty j...@noqsi.com wrote: On Dec 25, 2010, at 4:01 PM, Johnny Rosenberg wrote: Hm… I start to regret that I asked the question in the first place… No need to regret it. It was a good question. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Saturday 25 December 2010 14:59:14 John Doty wrote: On Dec 25, 2010, at 12:49 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: Yup, we're tyrants because we want to make it easier for 99% of our users to get their jobs done. But you aren't. A special purpose pcb-centric symbol/footprint library would be a fine substitute for the eclectic default library. For those users who would do better with it, it would be here, install this. But nobody's done that. Changing the default library piecemeal won't solve the problem, and will break things. I absolutely agree. At home I've had to create different libraries to support various methods of assembly. I have one library for surface mounting through-hole components. It lets me hand assemble crude prototypes. The next library was created piece by piece. Whenever I use a new part I create a new footprint. It's designed for hand assembly of manufactured boards. Last is a *professional* library that is intended for board houses using automated assembly techniques. This last technique was taught to me by our layout engineer at work. His primary goal is design for manufacturing. The complaints I keep hearing about gschem/pcb libraries remind me of his complaints about Orcad. However, he disdains the use of *any* symbol or footprint that he did not create himself. In fact, even when I was using Eagle I had to modify their libraries to support my methods of hand assembly. So, because I use several methods, a single one-size-fits-all library is just not going to work for me. I *could* make use of a library of heavy symbols but I still need the lightweight symbols, too. If I was forced to choose one library then I would like to keep the lightweight stuff. Best regards, Mark Stanley www.WideBandSystems.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values???
On Sat, Dec 25, 2010 at 09:23:17PM -0500, Mark wrote: snip So, because I use several methods, a single one-size-fits-all library is just not going to work for me. I *could* make use of a library of heavy symbols but I still need the lightweight symbols, too. If I was forced to choose one library then I would like to keep the lightweight stuff. Maybe we should extend existing library in a way that we clone existing symbols, prefix the names by use case and add/delete attributes. Since the currently available library wouldn't change at all, no existing schematics would be broken. We now have resistor-1.sym and resistor-2.sym; we woulg then have these cloned as _P_resistor-1.sym and _P_resistor-2.sym, _P_ meaning they are intended for use on PCB. Of course, this would increase the confusion of new users, but it should be no harder than getting the L/N/M suffix of some SMD footpritns in PCB. Regards, Tibor Palinkas ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Den 2010-12-24 00:38:35 skrev Stefan Salewski m...@ssalewski.de: On Fri, 2010-12-24 at 00:31 +0100, Johnny Rosenberg wrote: Value: → Enter ”390k”. Does it look nice? It certainly does not on my system. Am I doing this right at all? May it be related to your OHM sign? I never use it, and I do not see it often in professional sheets. It ok if you want it, may work if gschem supports it and your box in configured fine, i.e. for utf-8. Please try without that sign for testing, maybe you can provide a picture of the problem. This was only an example and the Ω has nothing to do with it. Of course I have tried different text, like 390, 390k, 390 k and so on. Do you mean that this works perfectly for you, that the text appears inside the symbol? If I turn the symbol 90°, the value appears to the right of the symbol. Maybe the value shouldn't appear inside, but rather above it or something? -- Kind regards Johnny Rosenberg ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Den 2010-12-24 00:53:38 skrev Stefan Salewski m...@ssalewski.de: On Fri, 2010-12-24 at 00:38 +0100, Stefan Salewski wrote: On Fri, 2010-12-24 at 00:31 +0100, Johnny Rosenberg wrote: Value: → Enter ”390k”. Does it look nice? It certainly does not on my system. Am I doing this right at all? Ah, now I understand you problem: You want to place the text inside the box of the (german) rectangular resister box. Is it German? I didn't know that. That's the symbol I've used all my life (I'm Swedish). Thought it was at least European standard (IEC) or something. Well, you can move the text whereever you want. Grab it with the left mouse key and move it. It may be useful to align center, and it may be necessary to decrease font size. Sorry, have not used -- 123k -- layout ever. Thanks, I didn't realize that I could select the text only, but you are right, it's possible. :) -- Kind regards Johnny Rosenberg ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Friday 24 December 2010 10:27:20 Johnny Rosenberg wrote: Den 2010-12-24 00:53:38 skrev Stefan Salewski m...@ssalewski.de: On Fri, 2010-12-24 at 00:38 +0100, Stefan Salewski wrote: On Fri, 2010-12-24 at 00:31 +0100, Johnny Rosenberg wrote: Value: → Enter ”390k”. Does it look nice? It certainly does not on my system. Am I doing this right at all? Ah, now I understand you problem: You want to place the text inside the box of the (german) rectangular resister box. Is it German? I didn't know that. That's the symbol I've used all my life (I'm Swedish). Thought it was at least European standard (IEC) or something. You're correct, it's an international standard, not restricted to Germany; box resistors are the standard symbol in the UK too. Peter -- Peter Brett pe...@peter-b.co.uk Remote Sensing Research Group Surrey Space Centre signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Den 2010-12-24 11:30:52 skrev Peter TB Brett pe...@peter-b.co.uk: On Friday 24 December 2010 10:27:20 Johnny Rosenberg wrote: Den 2010-12-24 00:53:38 skrev Stefan Salewski m...@ssalewski.de: On Fri, 2010-12-24 at 00:38 +0100, Stefan Salewski wrote: On Fri, 2010-12-24 at 00:31 +0100, Johnny Rosenberg wrote: Value: → Enter ”390k”. Does it look nice? It certainly does not on my system. Am I doing this right at all? Ah, now I understand you problem: You want to place the text inside the box of the (german) rectangular resister box. Is it German? I didn't know that. That's the symbol I've used all my life (I'm Swedish). Thought it was at least European standard (IEC) or something. You're correct, it's an international standard, not restricted to Germany; box resistors are the standard symbol in the UK too. Peter Actually we used both the symbols at school (many years ago…), but for different purposes. We used the –––/\/\/\/––– symbol when drawing a ”beräkningsschema”… sorry, I don't have a clue what that is in English, but perhaps something like ”schematics for calculations” or something like that? I don't know why we use different symbols in different situations though. -- Kind regards Johnny Rosenberg ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Den 2010-12-24 01:10:55 skrev Stephan Boettcher boettc...@physik.uni-kiel.de: Johnny Rosenberg gurus.knu...@gmail.com writes: Yet another newbie question then: I tried to enter a value of a resistor (/usr/share/gEDA/sym/analog/resistor-2.sym, my operating system is Ubuntu 10.10) but the position of the value needs to be adjusted a bit. How can I do that? It should look like this: –––[390kΩ]––– But it rather looks like this: –39[0kΩ ]––– The value needs to be centred, rather than aligned to the left. Did you try to just move the text? Select the text (not the component, just the text of the value attibute), type e x, or (Edit-Edit Text) select Middle-Middle alignment move the alignment mark to the center of the resistor. I tried that now,since you suggested it. Unfortunately it doesn't work like I expected: Left seems to mean right, right seems to mean left, upper seems to mean lower and lower seems to mean upper. Upper left seems to be default and everything else takes the text further away from where I want it. For further resistors, copy this resistor, so you do not need to allign every instance again. Attach a footprint attribute first, so that is copied as well, with your favorite resistor footprint. I also looked a bit into the /usr/share/gEDA/sym/analog/resistor-2.sym file, but I'm too much of a newbie to make any relevant changes to such files that actually work… You can open a symbol file in gschem to make changes, and save the changed version for your project. Oh… didn't think of that… yes, that should work, of course. -- Kind regards Johnny Rosenberg ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Johnny Rosenberg wrote: type e x, or (Edit-Edit Text) select Middle-Middle alignment move the alignment mark to the center of the resistor. I tried that now,since you suggested it. Unfortunately it doesn't work like I expected: Left seems to mean right, right seems to mean left, upper seems to mean lower and lower seems to mean upper. Upper left seems to be default and everything else takes the text further away from where I want it. The description refer to the position of the alignment mark relative to the text itself. They are not meant as alignment relative to the box or other objects. You have to move the Text after you have changed the alignment to middle-middle. See the step-by step recipe I gave yesterday. Here it is again, for your convenience: 1) select the text: click on the symbol -- The whole symbol gets highlighted then click on the text -- only the text is highlighted 2) type [ex] -- edit-text-properties dialog appears click on the chooser right of Alignment choose Middle Left click ok 3) type [m] -- the text is attached to the mouse cursor move the mouse so that the text is at the desired position left mouse click -- the text detaches from the mouse cursor ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
footprint = what the pads/holes/silk/wahtever on pcb for this component look like. On Fri, Dec 24, 2010 at 8:28 PM, Johnny Rosenberg gurus.knu...@gmail.com wrote: Den 2010-12-24 02:27:33 skrev kai-martin knaak k...@familieknaak.de: You may take a look at the symbols in http://gedasymbols.org Many of them are heavy, meaning, they come with value and footprint attribute included. Sorry for my ignorance (English is not my main language), but what does ”footprint” mean in this situation? I know the word, just not what it means in this case… -- Kind regards Johnny Rosenberg ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Johnny Rosenberg wrote: You may take a look at the symbols in http://gedasymbols.org Many of them are heavy, meaning, they come with value and footprint attribute included. Sorry for my ignorance (English is not my main language), but what does ”footprint” mean in this situation? It is the name of the pattern of copper and holes to be manufactured on the actual printed circuit board for the component the symbol refers to. There is a glossary of terms at the projects website: http://geda.seul.org/wiki/geda:glossary ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Den 2010-12-24 12:32:36 skrev kai-martin knaak k...@familieknaak.de: Johnny Rosenberg wrote: type e x, or (Edit-Edit Text) select Middle-Middle alignment move the alignment mark to the center of the resistor. I tried that now,since you suggested it. Unfortunately it doesn't work like I expected: Left seems to mean right, right seems to mean left, upper seems to mean lower and lower seems to mean upper. Upper left seems to be default and everything else takes the text further away from where I want it. The description refer to the position of the alignment mark relative to the text itself. They are not meant as alignment relative to the box or other objects. You have to move the Text after you have changed the alignment to middle-middle. See the step-by step recipe I gave yesterday. Here it is again, for your convenience: 1) select the text: click on the symbol -- The whole symbol gets highlighted then click on the text -- only the text is highlighted 2) type [ex] -- edit-text-properties dialog appears click on the chooser right of Alignment choose Middle Left click ok 3) type [m] -- the text is attached to the mouse cursor move the mouse so that the text is at the desired position left mouse click -- the text detaches from the mouse cursor ---)kaimartin(--- I actually figured it out eventually. Thanks for all the help! The ”m” thing was what I was looking for and I also needed to change the grid spacing (pressing ”[” once). Now I'd like to save my ”new” symbol somewhere. I'm not sure how to do that yet, but I think I saw some information about it the other day, so I'm sure to find it again. Should I save it locally (somewhere under ~/) or system wide? -- Kind regards Johnny Rosenberg ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Den 2010-12-24 12:34:27 skrev timecop time...@gmail.com: footprint = what the pads/holes/silk/wahtever on pcb for this component look like. Aah… that makes sense. Thanks. On Fri, Dec 24, 2010 at 8:28 PM, Johnny Rosenberg gurus.knu...@gmail.com wrote: Den 2010-12-24 02:27:33 skrev kai-martin knaak k...@familieknaak.de: You may take a look at the symbols in http://gedasymbols.org Many of them are heavy, meaning, they come with value and footprint attribute included. Sorry for my ignorance (English is not my main language), but what does ”footprint” mean in this situation? I know the word, just not what it means in this case… -- Kind regards Johnny Rosenberg ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user -- Kind regards Johnny Rosenberg ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Fri, 2010-12-24 at 12:22 +0100, Johnny Rosenberg wrote: I tried that now,since you suggested it. Unfortunately it doesn't work like I expected: Left seems to mean right, right seems to mean left, upper seems to mean lower and lower seems to mean upper. Upper left seems to be default and everything else takes the text further away from where I want it. When you click on the text, and are zoomed in, you will see a little x mark. That is the text origin. It could be that the text was initially rotated. Select the text, and rotate it - either with the edit menu, or er short-cut. Mirrored is also a possibility. ei. You should be able to get it back to a sane state where the text anchor placement matches the description in the edit box. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Fri, 2010-12-24 at 12:43 +0100, Johnny Rosenberg wrote: Now I'd like to save my ”new” symbol somewhere. There is not really a reason to save it, because you have only moved the text around and modified the alignment mark. OK, added a value attribute. For the current schematic, you can simple make Copies of this symbol, you only have to change the value if necessary. Saving symbols or making your own collection is more useful for greater changes, i.e heavy symbols with footprint attribute and ordering number... For me, remembering where I have stored such a custom symbol is not easy, so sometimes I simple copy symbols from existing schematics. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Fri, 2010-12-24 at 12:32 +0100, kai-martin knaak wrote: The description refer to the position of the alignment mark relative to the text itself. For gschem 1.6.1 there is still one strange thing, which I mentioned years ago on this list, and still do not really understand: If we rotate symbols 180 degree, text is made upright again by special logic in gschem, so that it may look like the symbol is not rotated at all. For this invisible rotation, text alignment mark works wrong, left/right top/bottom is exchanged. This can confuse people. That may be a problem of patches, we try to get a special behaviour for a special case, do not see all consequences. May work for a special case, but give strange results in other cases. So I can understand, that sometimes developers refuse to accept patches. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Den 2010-12-24 13:20:39 skrev Peter Clifton pc...@cam.ac.uk: On Fri, 2010-12-24 at 12:22 +0100, Johnny Rosenberg wrote: I tried that now,since you suggested it. Unfortunately it doesn't work like I expected: Left seems to mean right, right seems to mean left, upper seems to mean lower and lower seems to mean upper. Upper left seems to be default and everything else takes the text further away from where I want it. When you click on the text, and are zoomed in, you will see a little x mark. That is the text origin. It could be that the text was initially rotated. Select the text, and rotate it - either with the edit menu, or er short-cut. Mirrored is also a possibility. ei. You should be able to get it back to a sane state where the text anchor placement matches the description in the edit box. Actually I just misunderstood the functionality. I though that ”upper left” means that the text appears above the little ”x” and to the left of it, but it seems like ”upper left” is the location of the little ”x” rather than the text itself, so ”upper left” seems to mean that the little ”x” is above the text and to the left of it. Now that I know that, I managed to solve my problem. Thanks all! -- Kind regards Johnny Rosenberg ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Den 2010-12-24 13:37:34 skrev Stefan Salewski m...@ssalewski.de: On Fri, 2010-12-24 at 12:43 +0100, Johnny Rosenberg wrote: Now I'd like to save my ”new” symbol somewhere. There is not really a reason to save it, because you have only moved the text around and modified the alignment mark. OK, added a value attribute. For the current schematic, you can simple make Copies of this symbol, you only have to change the value if necessary. Saving symbols or making your own collection is more useful for greater changes, i.e heavy symbols with footprint attribute and ordering number... For me, remembering where I have stored such a custom symbol is not easy, so sometimes I simple copy symbols from existing schematics. For me, as a beginner, I think there are reasons. One of them is to learn more about how things work. But your reply is also valuable information for me, and I appreciate that too. -- Kind regards Johnny Rosenberg ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Stefan Salewski wrote: If we rotate symbols 180 degree, text is made upright again by special logic in gschem, so that it may look like the symbol is not rotated at all. For this invisible rotation, text alignment mark works wrong, left/right top/bottom is exchanged. This can confuse people. When I was new to gschem, this confused me a lot. It got really funny when rotating pins some of its attributes behaved differently than others. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Dec 23, 2010, at 8:27 PM, kai-martin knaak wrote: Oh my, a symbol without a value attribute! I forgot, just how light the default library symbols are. Can anyone point me to a reason? Why do we distribute the default library in such a crippled state? Because the default library is a mixed bag of symbols created by various people at various times in support of various design flows? Yes, a default library can only be a starting point and cannot fit everybody's needs. But does the starting point really have to be so poor that it fits virtually nobody's needs Well, I was using the valueless passive symbols quite a bit yesterday. But I guess I'm virtually nobody. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Johnny Rosenberg gurus.knu...@gmail.com writes: Sorry for my ignorance (English is not my main language), but what does ”footprint” mean in this situation? I know the word, just not what it means in this case… Getting Started with PCB has a list of terms. I have a copy online here: http://www.delorie.com/pcb/docs/gs/gs.html#Terminology footprint A footprint is the pattern on a circuit board to which your parts are attached. This includes all copper, silk, solder mask, and paste information. In other EDA programs, this may be referred to as a “land pattern”. “Footprint” sometimes is used to refer to a footprint file. “Footprint” refers to the pattern; “element” refers to the instance. For example, your layout might have four elements that use one footprint. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 12:15:17 -0500 John Doty j...@noqsi.com wrote: Yes, a default library can only be a starting point and cannot fit everybody's needs. But does the starting point really have to be so poor that it fits virtually nobody's needs Well, I was using the valueless passive symbols quite a bit yesterday. But I guess I'm virtually nobody. By virtually nobody I am sure he means an extremely small number, and if you are referring to just yourself (rather than a team, perhaps), then his statement is still accurate.There are more of us that would appreciate such defaults than those who would not. Resistors are just one of many component types out there have a value, no matter what type of package they come in - with rare exceptions, every single one of them you pick up will have numbers or color bands indicating that value, we all know that. That value might be zero ohms, but it is still a *value*. The same goes for every last capacitor, inductor, etc., though I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any that have a value of zero. Anyway, I suggest the following: * If the part in question can usually be described by a single value, for the purposes of the signal flow in the schematic that is, then give it a default of value=0. * If it is a discrete part that is specified entirely by its part number rather than a measurement, like a diode or a transistor, then pick a reasonable default; value=1N914 or value=2N. * If the part is something like a logic IC, use the standard name of the part in the fastest commonly available series for that particular gate; value=74F74 or value=74HCT245. * If none of these fits, then leave the value= attribute off entirely, since the user would have no choice but to get creative anyway. The point here is that every one of the component types in question has a value, therefore the value= field will end up being utilized by nearly everyone who instantiates the symbol for that component. Otherwise, schematics with a lot of such symbols become nearly impossible to read, let alone debug. -- There are some things in life worth obsessing over. Most things aren't, and when you learn that, life improves. http://starbase.globalpc.net/~ezekowitz Vanessa Ezekowitz vanessaezekow...@gmail.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Yet another newbie question then: I tried to enter a value of a resistor (/usr/share/gEDA/sym/analog/resistor-2.sym, my operating system is Ubuntu 10.10) but the position of the value needs to be adjusted a bit. How can I do that? It should look like this: –––[390kΩ]––– But it rather looks like this: –39[0kΩ ]––– The value needs to be centred, rather than aligned to the left. I also looked a bit into the /usr/share/gEDA/sym/analog/resistor-2.sym file, but I'm too much of a newbie to make any relevant changes to such files that actually work… -- Kind regards Johnny Rosenberg ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Fri, 2010-12-24 at 00:00 +0100, Johnny Rosenberg wrote: Yet another newbie question then: I tried to enter a value of a resistor You can change the alignment mark of text, select the text, and select Edit/Edit Text from menu. In the popup window there is an alignment field. Not sure if that was your problem, sorry. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Den 2010-12-24 00:08:41 skrev Stefan Salewski m...@ssalewski.de: On Fri, 2010-12-24 at 00:00 +0100, Johnny Rosenberg wrote: Yet another newbie question then: I tried to enter a value of a resistor You can change the alignment mark of text, select the text, and select Edit/Edit Text from menu. In the popup window there is an alignment field. Not sure if that was your problem, sorry. Well, I'm a beginner so maybe I'm just doing it the wrong way or using the wrong tools. Here's what I do: Draw a resistor somewhere (Add component → Basic devices → resistor-2.sym). Right click the resistor and select ”Edit…”. Add attribute → Name: → Select ”value”. Value: → Enter ”390kΩ”. Click ”Add”. ☑ Visible ⇨ Select ”Show value only”. Click ”Close”. Does it look nice? It certainly does not on my system. Am I doing this right at all? -- Kind regards Johnny Rosenberg ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Fri, 2010-12-24 at 00:31 +0100, Johnny Rosenberg wrote: Value: → Enter ”390k”. Does it look nice? It certainly does not on my system. Am I doing this right at all? May it be related to your OHM sign? I never use it, and I do not see it often in professional sheets. It ok if you want it, may work if gschem supports it and your box in configured fine, i.e. for utf-8. Please try without that sign for testing, maybe you can provide a picture of the problem. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Fri, 2010-12-24 at 00:38 +0100, Stefan Salewski wrote: On Fri, 2010-12-24 at 00:31 +0100, Johnny Rosenberg wrote: Value: → Enter ”390k”. Does it look nice? It certainly does not on my system. Am I doing this right at all? Ah, now I understand you problem: You want to place the text inside the box of the (german) rectangular resister box. Well, you can move the text whereever you want. Grab it with the left mouse key and move it. It may be useful to align center, and it may be necessary to decrease font size. Sorry, have not used -- 123k -- layout ever. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Johnny Rosenberg gurus.knu...@gmail.com writes: Yet another newbie question then: I tried to enter a value of a resistor (/usr/share/gEDA/sym/analog/resistor-2.sym, my operating system is Ubuntu 10.10) but the position of the value needs to be adjusted a bit. How can I do that? It should look like this: –––[390kΩ]––– But it rather looks like this: –39[0kΩ ]––– The value needs to be centred, rather than aligned to the left. Did you try to just move the text? Select the text (not the component, just the text of the value attibute), type e x, or (Edit-Edit Text) select Middle-Middle alignment move the alignment mark to the center of the resistor. For further resistors, copy this resistor, so you do not need to allign every instance again. Attach a footprint attribute first, so that is copied as well, with your favorite resistor footprint. I also looked a bit into the /usr/share/gEDA/sym/analog/resistor-2.sym file, but I'm too much of a newbie to make any relevant changes to such files that actually work… You can open a symbol file in gschem to make changes, and save the changed version for your project. -- Stephan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Johnny Rosenberg wrote: Here's what I do: Draw a resistor somewhere (Add component → Basic devices → resistor-2.sym). Oh my, a symbol without a value attribute! I forgot, just how light the default library symbols are. Can anyone point me to a reason? Why do we distribute the default library in such a crippled state? Yes, a default library can only be a starting point and cannot fit everybody's needs. But does the starting point really have to be so poor that it fits virtually nobody's needs? Right click the resistor and select ”Edit…”. Add attribute → Name: → Select ”value”. Value: → Enter ”390kΩ”. Click ”Add”. ☑ Visible ⇨ Select ”Show value only”. Click ”Close”. If you want to fit the value inside the box of the resistor, the best way would be to change the alignment of the text from bottom-left to middle-left: 1) select the text: click on the symbol -- The whole symbol gets highlighted then click on the text -- only the text is highlighted 2) type [ex] -- edit-text-properties dialog appears click on the chooser right of Alignment choose Middle Left click ok 3) type [m] -- the text is attached to the mouse cursor move the mouse so that the text is at the desired position left mouse click -- the text detaches from the mouse cursor You may take a look at the symbols in http://gedasymbols.org Many of them are heavy, meaning, they come with value and footprint attribute included. shameless-plug My collection is here: http://www.gedasymbols.org/user/kai_martin_knaak/ The symbols are consistent with my footprints. /shameless-plug gedasymbols.org allows anonymous CVS access. You can download all symbols of the site to your hard disk if you wish. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
