Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
Jim, I think you have expressed my concerns perfectly. Mentors care for the podlings. Someone has to care for the mentors. Not all mentors need help, not all podlings need help. We should provide *support* all the way down for when it is needed. We should not confuse interference with support. GSoC was announced yesterday, we have enough experienced admins available already. This means I am now happy, as ComDev chair to be active in a new podling mentor support model. I look forward to figuring out the right balance with those who want to make it happen. Ross Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity. On Feb 5, 2012 2:38 PM, "Jim Jagielski" wrote:
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
On Feb 3, 2012, at 11:40 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote: > Hi Jim, > > On Feb 3, 2012, at 5:55 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote: >>> [...snip...] >>> >>> So that's 7 of 9 board members that are on the Incubator PMC, and >>> a good chance they are here now, and reading this. >>> >>> What do Board members think? IPMC hats on? Great. Board >>> hats on? Great too. Would be great to get opinions now >>> rather than have to wait. >> >> I respectfully decline to commit one way or another, due >> to the possibility of it unduly (possibly) swaying things >> one way or another. I'd prefer the discussion to continue, >> unfettered, and all of a sudden having director's plop >> in their opinions will, almost for sure, affect that. > > I respect your opinion Jim, but honestly would love > to hear some feedback from you on this. > Incubation is needed. I think we all agree about that. What has the most significant effect on success, or failure of podlings? Is it the IPMC, or the mentor/PPMC interaction? IMO, it's the latter. Assuming we agree about that, then how do we "fix" things... or, in other words, what mechanism do we use to help watch the watchers... IMO, that has been and is the duty of the IPMC. Is the IPMC doing that well? It seems that there is some opinion that it is not... For those who think that way, is there the underlying assumption that all podlings must succeed? That somehow a more "active" IPMC could turn things around? IMO, an Incubator (who watches the watchers) is needed; it needs to exist to review not how the podlings themselves are doing, but how the mentors are doing. There needs to be a VERY clear chain of responsibility, and adding new roles and tasks only makes sense if it *simplifies* things or fills holes. Mentors guide the podlings... they encourage. But the podling lives or dies by how *it* handles that guidance and encouragement. If the mentor is failing in his/her task, that is up to the IPMC to know and act upon. Mentors worry about how the podling is doing. The IPMC worries about how the mentors are doing. That's as complex as it needs to be. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity. On Feb 4, 2012 5:50 AM, "William A. Rowe Jr." wrote: > > On 2/3/2012 8:41 PM, Ross Gardler wrote: > > Lets not forget that the model referred to *included* the IPMC. The > > IPMC once had a useful function, it was a safety net for fledgling > > communities. > > The IPMC never served that purpose. Projects were scuttled even in > its first year. Where strong and clear mentorship existed the IPMC has worked just fine. Where absent the IPMC has failed. This is the core of my concerns. Once the proposal explicitly addresses or prevents the circumstances in which strong mentorship is lacking I'll be happy. I wish people would stop arguing with me as if I am saying the IPMC should stay, can people please address my expressed concern, rather than someone welded concerns. Ross
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
On 2/3/2012 8:41 PM, Ross Gardler wrote: > Lets not forget that the model referred to *included* the IPMC. The > IPMC once had a useful function, it was a safety net for fledgling > communities. The IPMC never served that purpose. Projects were scuttled even in its first year. The IPMC served to take the complexity of bringing in new code off of the board of directors. Little more. The IPMC in turn replaced Jakarta as the repository of interesting experiments that might or might not fly, and similarly replaced Jakarta as the home of vague and uncertain direction for new efforts. Nothing more. A large percentage of the first 25 incubating efforts are failures, not because of the incubator, but in spite of it. The incubator failed to increase the success rate of the average effort. And the board would have failed in bringing in new efforts, and the Incubator would have failed as spectacularly as Jakarta, except that Chris and others recognize the few good bits to be gleaned from the whole experiment, and can relieve the board of the majority of the headaches it was avoiding, in partnership with ComDev. We now not only internalize, and can voice the process, but we have documented the process. Anyone can read it. Any member can help mentor it, and point people to the appropriate docs. The incubator truly is done. It is the most public, most ineffective old boys club ever to infest OSS. It has digested and documented all of the useful bits, and persists in infernally arguing over the rest of the undocumented and mostly irrelevant bits. It does so in a very embarrassingly public way. There are three memes to associate with those who resist the change that Chris has correctly proscribed; 1. Lack of control is hard. We all want authority. The incubator gave every member a podium and soapbox to stand upon and speak across with authority. And even in discord and disagreement, we are ASF members, so clearly we individually know better. [Given the number of ASF members leaving the incubator recently, one might question that.] 2. Fear of missteps is hard. We've watched every project at the ASF teeter, occasionally trip, and rarely but significantly fall upon their 'face' due to missteps. So it's hard to give up control because we know better how to avoid all that. [The administration and day to day activity of incubator would suggest we don't]. 3. Risk of failure is hard. There will be projects which are going to fall flat whether the incubator provides them 24x7 counseling or makes them do all the work themselves. There is nothing that the present IPMC does which alleviates or even mitigates this fact. [In spite of everyone's best intentions.] The incubator is a classic story of too many cooks spoiling the broth. There is no more added value which can be offered by the situation at the incubator today. The results of the incubator in terms of documentation and process are excellent. It's time to eliminate the differentiation between 'not yet a project' and 'a full project too long neglected' and focus all ASF resources across the board at all of the projects, incubating and established, and stop wasting time hoping that some special sauce only from the back kitchen makes that difference. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
On 4 February 2012 01:47, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote: > On Feb 3, 2012, at 4:41 PM, Ross Gardler wrote: >> On Feb 3, 2012 4:27 PM, "Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" < >> chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote: >>> ... > if you'll recall Jim's message > to the members in the past 2 years about "internal belly gazing" or > "navel" gazing or whatever the word was when he was talking > about the foundation as a whole and how even though there > have been little blips over the years, it's still largely been a > successful model. +1 Lets not forget that the model referred to *included* the IPMC. The IPMC once had a useful function, it was a safety net for fledgling communities. My main message after reading this reply is to ask you to take the weekend off. Have a think about what I have been saying. In most of my mails I have said I *like* your proposal. You are railing against the wrong person. What I am concerned about is not the intent but the execution. I just don't like that your proposal pushes all the problem cases to someone else. I like it even less that you don't seem to recognise these problem cases exist. You seem to think all podlings are plain sailing because you're lucky enough to have been involved with some that are "easy" or have had excellent mentors. Not all are like that. If your proposal included a higher barrier to entry and thus weeded out the hard cases then I might see things differently. But you don't appear to be doing that and I'm concerned that the hard cases will end up with the board who will then seek to push it back down to ComDev. You've now stated that you are willing to go more slowly than originally proposed. This is a good thing. This means you will give yourself time to find those hard cases and ensure there is a safety net for them (or a barrier to entry, whichever is more appropriate). Enjoy your weekend Ross Ross - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
Hi Ross, On Feb 3, 2012, at 4:41 PM, Ross Gardler wrote: > Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity. > On Feb 3, 2012 4:27 PM, "Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" < > chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote: >> >> Hi Greg, >> >> On Feb 3, 2012, at 1:44 AM, Greg Stein wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 00:58, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) >>> wrote: ... > > ... > >> "Oh, we have these sets of projects that are related, let's create a >> meta committee that will [wrangle] them together, and then report >> out on their status, share MLs, etc. etc." >> >> Each and every time the above is presented, the argument against >> (besides maintaining the status quo, which I honestly think is being >> pushed here) is that there is no need for such a meta committee >> (and by transitivity) a meta VP role. That's what the Incubator VP >> is. A meta VP. We don't need the role. > > This ignored a great many suggestions. Including my own (which I've not got > sufficient time to flesh out right now, but you seem to be making > significant assumptions about what flesh there would be on those bones). Well what do you expect? Everyone is chiming in, and I'm doing my best to reply to all the emails but I can't keep up. Also, I will state that in response to "...you seem to be making significant assumptions about what flesh there would be on those bones.", you are doing *precisely* the same thing in your responses below. > >> >> >>> As I >>> mentioned before, I believe there are aspects to incubation that >>> require a supportive group which cannot simply be shifted to the >>> podling-TLP >> >> I don't agree with this. It's shifted to the project TLP. That's OK. >> Why is this not? > > The incubator had demonstrated that relying on mentors is not always > sufficient. The incubator has failed in it's guidance rule. It has turned > to oversight and interference. Your proposal, in it's current form, will > remove the interference but will not revive the guidance. First off, the incubator isn't the only committee that's demonstrated relying on mentors (which I'll substitute ASF members for) is not always sufficient. *Every* single committee does that. That's why they have a VP, but beyond that, that's why we have a board, and the VPs are accountable to the board. And that's why the board can replace a VP, b/c they don't always get it right; or because of other priorities, or recommendations; or because they get TL;DR after reading Mattmann's emails. Or whatever. Second, my proposal in its current form does the best job I know of with the ASF of addressing guidance. It puts it in the hand of a VP for a project (formerly called a podling) and that project's Project Management Committee. And it also requires 3 ASF members to be there. That's the best way I know how to do it. And, if you'll recall Jim's message to the members in the past 2 years about "internal belly gazing" or "navel" gazing or whatever the word was when he was talking about the foundation as a whole and how even though there have been little blips over the years, it's still largely been a successful model. Finally, my proposal (despite Marvin's comments about boiling the ocean -- no worries Marvin :) ) addresses what I think are concrete, actionable steps and does *not* try to boil the ocean. Those concrete, actionable steps are things that can be monitored and acted upon over the coming months (and yes they can even be reverted, though I hope not!). Sure, I'd love for the Incubator to be dissolved at the next board meeting because I think all the extra drum beating and "data points" and whatever that people want and keep clamoring for are already there if you've been active in the Incubator and watching which podlings succeed and which don't, and whatever, and I don't think the sky would fall, nor would we suddenly become the wild west . But, I'm realistic. Based on the feedback so far, I am willing to concede that this will take time, months. I'm even willing to concede that during that time, I'll (or someone else) will volunteer time to assist in that transition and report to the board. > > The ASF is not just a place to host open source. It is a community > learning how to do community is hard. The incubator was created to help > that learning. Your proposal, as it stands will remove the interference but > will not revive the learning. The learning is done. Have you seen the oodles and oodles of Incubator documentation? Have you seen the quality of RMs and the peeps that are rolling releases, responding to feedback and navigating that body of work? Sure, there are snafus, but so what. It's a good body of work. Everyone keeps pissing and moaning that getting rid of the Incubator is a "punishment". It's *not* that in the least. Go back and read my initial response to Roy. I called it a "success". It is a success. It's produced tons of successful Apache projects; great documentation; lots of good will and press, a
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
On Feb 3, 2012, at 4:41 PM, Ross Gardler wrote: > > The incubator had demonstrated that relying on mentors is not always > sufficient. The incubator has failed in it's guidance rule. It has turned > to oversight and interference. Your proposal, in it's current form, will > remove the interference but will not revive the guidance. > > The ASF is not just a place to host open source. It is a community > learning how to do community is hard. The incubator was created to help > that learning. Your proposal, as it stands will remove the interference but > will not revive the learning. This was precisely my reaction but you have said it much better. > >>> The Board has enough to do without trying to >>> *also* verify release processes, check on podling branding and press, >>> etc. >> >> You guys don't do that for projects, why would you do it in this case? > > TLPs are self governing, podling TLPs could be, but your proposal assumes > they alwats will be, from day one. Yet the incubator demonstrates mentors > often fail in this regard. I am not involved in a single poddling that can > mystery three binding votes on a release today. The IPMC fills the gap, but > it also generates interference. Your proposal, as it stands, will remove > the interference but will not maintain the necessary oversight. +1 Ralph - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity. On Feb 3, 2012 4:27 PM, "Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" < chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > On Feb 3, 2012, at 1:44 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > > > On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 00:58, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) > > wrote: > >> ... ... > "Oh, we have these sets of projects that are related, let's create a > meta committee that will [wrangle] them together, and then report > out on their status, share MLs, etc. etc." > > Each and every time the above is presented, the argument against > (besides maintaining the status quo, which I honestly think is being > pushed here) is that there is no need for such a meta committee > (and by transitivity) a meta VP role. That's what the Incubator VP > is. A meta VP. We don't need the role. This ignored a great many suggestions. Including my own (which I've not got sufficient time to flesh out right now, but you seem to be making significant assumptions about what flesh there would be on those bones). > > > > As I > > mentioned before, I believe there are aspects to incubation that > > require a supportive group which cannot simply be shifted to the > > podling-TLP > > I don't agree with this. It's shifted to the project TLP. That's OK. > Why is this not? The incubator had demonstrated that relying on mentors is not always sufficient. The incubator has failed in it's guidance rule. It has turned to oversight and interference. Your proposal, in it's current form, will remove the interference but will not revive the guidance. The ASF is not just a place to host open source. It is a community learning how to do community is hard. The incubator was created to help that learning. Your proposal, as it stands will remove the interference but will not revive the learning. > > The Board has enough to do without trying to > > *also* verify release processes, check on podling branding and press, > > etc. > > You guys don't do that for projects, why would you do it in this case? TLPs are self governing, podling TLPs could be, but your proposal assumes they alwats will be, from day one. Yet the incubator demonstrates mentors often fail in this regard. I am not involved in a single poddling that can mystery three binding votes on a release today. The IPMC fills the gap, but it also generates interference. Your proposal, as it stands, will remove the interference but will not maintain the necessary oversight. > > To summarize in a sentence my proposal: > > "Get rid of the Incubator PMC, its VP, etc and just start treating incoming > projects like Apache projects, day 1." Most incoming projects are not Apache infects on day 1. Your proposal, as it stands, will result in a new kind of Apache. One in which the average standard of IP management is reduced. One in which the strength of the average community is reduced. Despite all this I like you're proposal. It has a great deal of merit, but it is incomplete. All that is required for me to like it is to say, this is the starting point, lets identify suitable projects that can survive in this format. Work with them and address the issues that emerge. Later we can move the more complex projects into this format. Ross > > Cheers, > Chris > > ++ > Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. > Senior Computer Scientist > NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA > Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 > Email: chris.a.mattm...@nasa.gov > WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ > ++ > Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department > University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA > ++ > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
On 02/02/2012 09:58 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote: > What do Board members think? IPMC hats on? Great. Board > hats on? Great too. Would be great to get opinions now > rather than have to wait. I like the simplicity of erasing the layer of management that is the Incubator. The board is a stricter parent but with less attention to detail and patience than the IPMC has shown. Board members are not likely to examine every proposed release tarball to check that everything is licensed correctly. On the other hand, if a project doesn't report or fails to act on advice from the board for long, then the board will replace the chair or propose to closing the project. Would it work to the board as a single parent? Yes, I think it would. It would be a "tough love" approach. However if there were also people advising and monitoring young projects then things might go more smoothly. So if folks are willing to organize and manage this kinder, gentler parent/teacher then I'd be happy to have a VP Incubation. Doug - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
On Feb 3, 2012, at 10:24 AM, William A. Rowe Jr. wrote: > On 2/3/2012 8:07 AM, Sam Ruby wrote: >>> >>> [...snippage...] >>> >>> I just don't think it is realistic to imagine that in 60 days from >>> some near-term board meeting, we can set up this new plan, debug it, >>> and transition the existing clutch. While this can't avoid ending up >>> as electioneering, I don't think it a good idea to simply appoint an >>> IPMC chairman who is focussed like a laser beam on this restructuring >>> to the exclusion of making the best of what we're currently doing. >> >> This makes sense to me. Podlings are an obvious granularity to try out this. >> >> Over a period of years we dissolved Jakarta. We started by graduating >> Ant and Tomcat to be TLPs. This was once a new concept. Over time, >> less and less remained under the umbrella. >> >> Selecting individual podlings that seem best equipped to try out the >> new experiment would be a reasonable way to proceed. > > I'm actually thinking the thru-process test might be more useful. Take > the next two incubating projects 'accepted', put Chris and I each on one > of them with another few mentors each as usual, give them the board > resolutions to create them as "Project, Incubating" "accountable to the > policies proscribed by the VP, Incubator", and see how the process flows. > Chris and I have each incubated a few projects all the way through, so > it should be easy for us to note obstacles and roadblocks that need to > be corrected through docs and policy revisions. Yep, that's fine with me and we have some already being discussed potential "podlings" in the old model that would fit this. Cheers, Chris ++ Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. Senior Computer Scientist NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 Email: chris.a.mattm...@nasa.gov WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ ++ Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA ++ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
On 2/3/2012 8:07 AM, Sam Ruby wrote: > On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 7:34 AM, Benson Margulies > wrote: >> It seems to me that the proposed new scheme will take quite a bit of >> setting up. There is some writing to do. More to the point, if I were >> the board, I would want to pilot the new scheme for some time before >> tearing down the existing incubator. All of this looks to me like more >> than 2 months. >> >> A trial balloon: the board appoints Chris to run a PMC to set this up >> and try it out -- with the intention of being a short-lived >> phenomenon. Meanwhile, Noel or I or some other nominee continue to >> make the best of the incubator as we have it, including the gradual >> modifications pushed by Sam and Joe. If the board eventually decides >> that the ipmc is entirely obviated by the membership and comdev, we'll >> hire a bagpiper for the closing ceremony. If it turns out that a small >> IPMC providing support and assistance to 'probationary projects' is >> desired, we'll go on a diet. >> >> I just don't think it is realistic to imagine that in 60 days from >> some near-term board meeting, we can set up this new plan, debug it, >> and transition the existing clutch. While this can't avoid ending up >> as electioneering, I don't think it a good idea to simply appoint an >> IPMC chairman who is focussed like a laser beam on this restructuring >> to the exclusion of making the best of what we're currently doing. > > This makes sense to me. Podlings are an obvious granularity to try out this. > > Over a period of years we dissolved Jakarta. We started by graduating > Ant and Tomcat to be TLPs. This was once a new concept. Over time, > less and less remained under the umbrella. > > Selecting individual podlings that seem best equipped to try out the > new experiment would be a reasonable way to proceed. I'm actually thinking the thru-process test might be more useful. Take the next two incubating projects 'accepted', put Chris and I each on one of them with another few mentors each as usual, give them the board resolutions to create them as "Project, Incubating" "accountable to the policies proscribed by the VP, Incubator", and see how the process flows. Chris and I have each incubated a few projects all the way through, so it should be easy for us to note obstacles and roadblocks that need to be corrected through docs and policy revisions. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
Hey Sam, On Feb 3, 2012, at 9:05 AM, Sam Ruby wrote: > On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 11:39 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) > wrote: >> On Feb 3, 2012, at 5:50 AM, Sam Ruby wrote: >> >> >>> What I care most about is >>> addressed by this proposal: that there be an identified person to >>> which feedback can be directed for each report. >> >> Sure, I get that now. I'm +1 to be that person > > I think that what I intended to say and what you seem to have heard > are two different things. Don't worry, I'm in agreement. :-) > > Current process: individual PPMCs produce reports. IPMC chair bundles > and forwards. Board reviews, provides comments to IPMC chair. For > whatever reason, this has not been effective in closing the loop. > > Proposed process (as I understand it): PPMCs produce reports. Board > reviews, provides comments to PPMC chair. That does seem to me to be > much more likely to be an effective process. Yep, you got it. That's what I was trying to say. > >>> First, having the board vote on the creation of each podling is a bit >>> too heavy weight. I for one would prefer that that continue to be >>> delegated. >> >> How about to the membership of the ASF? Take it to members@? > > > I've yet to see members@ be a productive way to get a crisp > resolution on ANYTHING in a finite period of time. > Heh. I've yet to see members@ be a productive way to get a crisp resolution on ANYTHING in a finite period of time. > >>> Second, the board is not the appropriate vehicle for fine tuning / >>> micro-managing individual projects, much less podlings. A podling >>> that consistently fails to report or fails to address issues >>> identified by the board should expect one or more of: a new chair, >>> people added or removed from the committee, of for the committee to be >>> dissolved entirely. Having a supportive resource (whether that >>> resource goes by the name of 'incubator' or 'comdev', I care not) >>> remains important. >> >> Yes, totally, I agree with that too. In fact, I'll admit that your recent >> prodding of better IPMC reports helped me crystalize that notion. > > Hmm. I'm wondering if I should be offended. :-P Hehe, I tell my friends: you want your sports team to lose? Have Mattmann VOTE for them! :) Except for USC of course. We're on the upswing! Cheers, Chris ++ Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. Senior Computer Scientist NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 Email: chris.a.mattm...@nasa.gov WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ ++ Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA ++ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 11:39 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote: > On Feb 3, 2012, at 5:50 AM, Sam Ruby wrote: > > >> What I care most about is >> addressed by this proposal: that there be an identified person to >> which feedback can be directed for each report. > > Sure, I get that now. I'm +1 to be that person I think that what I intended to say and what you seem to have heard are two different things. Don't worry, I'm in agreement. :-) Current process: individual PPMCs produce reports. IPMC chair bundles and forwards. Board reviews, provides comments to IPMC chair. For whatever reason, this has not been effective in closing the loop. Proposed process (as I understand it): PPMCs produce reports. Board reviews, provides comments to PPMC chair. That does seem to me to be much more likely to be an effective process. >> First, having the board vote on the creation of each podling is a bit >> too heavy weight. I for one would prefer that that continue to be >> delegated. > > How about to the membership of the ASF? Take it to members@? I've yet to see members@ be a productive way to get a crisp resolution on ANYTHING in a finite period of time. >> Second, the board is not the appropriate vehicle for fine tuning / >> micro-managing individual projects, much less podlings. A podling >> that consistently fails to report or fails to address issues >> identified by the board should expect one or more of: a new chair, >> people added or removed from the committee, of for the committee to be >> dissolved entirely. Having a supportive resource (whether that >> resource goes by the name of 'incubator' or 'comdev', I care not) >> remains important. > > Yes, totally, I agree with that too. In fact, I'll admit that your recent > prodding of better IPMC reports helped me crystalize that notion. Hmm. I'm wondering if I should be offended. :-P - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
Hi Jim, On Feb 3, 2012, at 5:55 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote: >> [...snip...] >> >> So that's 7 of 9 board members that are on the Incubator PMC, and >> a good chance they are here now, and reading this. >> >> What do Board members think? IPMC hats on? Great. Board >> hats on? Great too. Would be great to get opinions now >> rather than have to wait. > > I respectfully decline to commit one way or another, due > to the possibility of it unduly (possibly) swaying things > one way or another. I'd prefer the discussion to continue, > unfettered, and all of a sudden having director's plop > in their opinions will, almost for sure, affect that. I respect your opinion Jim, but honestly would love to hear some feedback from you on this. Cheers, Chris ++ Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. Senior Computer Scientist NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 Email: chris.a.mattm...@nasa.gov WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ ++ Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA ++ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
Hi Sam, On Feb 3, 2012, at 5:50 AM, Sam Ruby wrote: > On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 4:44 AM, Greg Stein wrote: >> On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 00:58, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) >> wrote: >>> ... >>> And to be honest, even if you (Bill) or the board folks think >>> that there should be an Incubation VP, are you willing to at least >>> try it my way, and then if all hell breaks loose, simply add the role >>> in 6 months (or sooner, if required?) IOW, we accept my proposal asi-is. >>> Then in 6 months, we'll see how it's working out, and I'll tell you what, >>> if we need an Incubation VP then, I'll be all for it, and even willing to >>> sign >>> up for it. >> >> With my Director hat on, I would vote to keep the Incubator VP and >> only eliminate it when it is demonstrated to be of no value. As I >> mentioned before, I believe there are aspects to incubation that >> require a supportive group which cannot simply be shifted to the >> podling-TLP or the Board. The Board has enough to do without trying to >> *also* verify release processes, check on podling branding and press, >> etc. > > With my Director's hat on, I certainly wouldn't dismiss the proposal > out of hand. Thanks for that. > > As Bill pointed out previously, the amount of lines in the monthly > board agendas won't materially change. +1. > What I care most about is > addressed by this proposal: that there be an identified person to > which feedback can be directed for each report. Sure, I get that now. I'm +1 to be that person, so long as I make it clear that I'm not intending to be the person for long, and my goal is: 1. Implement: http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/IncubatorDeconstructionProposal 2. Report to the board on its status every month. 3. Start graduating podlings into TLP (spin them out) 4. Any new projects that come along and propose over the next 6 months should be subject to my proposal in 1. 5. By June 2012 or by July 2012, there is no more Incubator, no IPMC, and no Incubator VP role. "Yes, Incubation, No, Incubator" :-) > > Podlings typically have multiple ASF members assigned to them (three > is not an atypical number). I believe that the responsibility for > verifying release processes, check on podling branding and press is > already assigned to these members. +1, yes. > If a podling (with the support of > the mentors) votes to assign a non ASF-member as the chair, I am OK > with that too as long as there are still plenty enough people > monitoring the development of the podling. Me too. > > I'll name three concerns / items to be addressed: > > First, having the board vote on the creation of each podling is a bit > too heavy weight. I for one would prefer that that continue to be > delegated. How about to the membership of the ASF? Take it to members@? > > Second, the board is not the appropriate vehicle for fine tuning / > micro-managing individual projects, much less podlings. A podling > that consistently fails to report or fails to address issues > identified by the board should expect one or more of: a new chair, > people added or removed from the committee, of for the committee to be > dissolved entirely. Having a supportive resource (whether that > resource goes by the name of 'incubator' or 'comdev', I care not) > remains important. Yes, totally, I agree with that too. In fact, I'll admit that your recent prodding of better IPMC reports helped me crystalize that notion. > > Third, we started to move towards a point where having commit access > to a podling means commit access to all the incubator. The proposal > will need to cover how that is either going to change or how that > would be expected to work. To me, it can remain the interim over the next 6 months, but won't matter after that, because there will be no more Incubator, and it will be an individual project's decision. Cheers, Chris ++ Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. Senior Computer Scientist NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 Email: chris.a.mattm...@nasa.gov WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ ++ Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA ++ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
Hi Benson, On Feb 3, 2012, at 4:34 AM, Benson Margulies wrote: > It seems to me that the proposed new scheme will take quite a bit of > setting up. There is some writing to do. More to the point, if I were > the board, I would want to pilot the new scheme for some time before > tearing down the existing incubator. All of this looks to me like more > than 2 months. Sure, so let's say 6 months then. That's commensurate with what Bill and I were saying, aka around June 2012, Incubator = bye bye. To summarize: "yes, Incubation, no Incubator." Cheers, Chris ++ Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. Senior Computer Scientist NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 Email: chris.a.mattm...@nasa.gov WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ ++ Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA ++ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
Hi Greg, On Feb 3, 2012, at 1:44 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 00:58, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) > wrote: >> ... >> And to be honest, even if you (Bill) or the board folks think >> that there should be an Incubation VP, are you willing to at least >> try it my way, and then if all hell breaks loose, simply add the role >> in 6 months (or sooner, if required?) IOW, we accept my proposal asi-is. >> Then in 6 months, we'll see how it's working out, and I'll tell you what, >> if we need an Incubation VP then, I'll be all for it, and even willing to >> sign >> up for it. > > With my Director hat on, I would vote to keep the Incubator VP and > only eliminate it when it is demonstrated to be of no value. What in my proposal *doesn't* demonstrate that it's time to get rid of the VP? I believe I've elaborated quite laboriously over the past week why I think the VP, Incubator position has served its purpose, just like other VP positions that we've retired over time. Can you address specific points in my proposal and tell me what I'm missing to demonstrate that we don't need the Incubator VP and the IPMC anymore? I'd argue that the following demonstrates that we don't need it, which for the record, are points in my original email thread and now proposal here: http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/IncubatorDeconstructionProposal 1. Podlings will be projects. They will have a VP. That's the interface between the board and the project, just like any other project. 2. Why add another officer position (or in this case, keep one), when we don't have met officer positions that "manage" the reporting of standard TLPs (or sets of them) to the board? We've have several conversations over the years, e.g., in search, or in database communities here at Apache, that run something like this: "Oh, we have these sets of projects that are related, let's create a meta committee that will [wrangle] them together, and then report out on their status, share MLs, etc. etc." Each and every time the above is presented, the argument against (besides maintaining the status quo, which I honestly think is being pushed here) is that there is no need for such a meta committee (and by transitivity) a meta VP role. That's what the Incubator VP is. A meta VP. We don't need the role. > As I > mentioned before, I believe there are aspects to incubation that > require a supportive group which cannot simply be shifted to the > podling-TLP I don't agree with this. It's shifted to the project TLP. That's OK. Why is this not? > or the Board. I agree with this. > The Board has enough to do without trying to > *also* verify release processes, check on podling branding and press, > etc. You guys don't do that for projects, why would you do it in this case? To summarize in a sentence my proposal: "Get rid of the Incubator PMC, its VP, etc and just start treating incoming projects like Apache projects, day 1." Cheers, Chris ++ Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. Senior Computer Scientist NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 Email: chris.a.mattm...@nasa.gov WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ ++ Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA ++ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
Hi Daniel, On Feb 3, 2012, at 1:29 AM, Daniel Shahaf wrote: > Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote on Thu, Feb 02, 2012 at 20:20:26 -0800: >> Thanks Christian. >> >> I'll accept, thanks for your kind words, and for those of Marvin and >> Joe, and the comments from Benson and others. >> >> I will note that should I be elected into this role, I will state that >> I don't intend to be in it very long as I don't intend for it to exist >> much longer. Should I be elected I will immediately move to >> a proposal/resolution phase and recommendation to the board >> to dissolve the Incubator PMC, and to ratify the elements of my >> proposal. > > Which, for the archives, is > http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201201.mbox/<25c5ae77-6949-493e-bbd5-eb20869a2...@jpl.nasa.gov>, > right? Yep. Cheers, Chris > > >> >> I realize that Rome wasn't built in a day, but I'm optimistic >> that it can be built not longer after that. >> >> Cheers, >> Chris >> >> On Feb 1, 2012, at 3:16 PM, Christian Grobmeier wrote: >> >>> We have already 2 good nominations for the IPMC chair role, Noel and Benson. >>> >>> I would like add a new name and nominate Chris Mattman as the IPMC >>> chair. He does care deeply on the incubator and expresses my feelings >>> in many ways. In addition he is a damn nice guy with many ideas. >>> >>> Cheers >>> Christian >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote: This belongs on general@ ... A call for nominations for Incubator PMC Chair was started on the private@ list. The nomination process should be open to the Incubator community. --- Noel -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 11:30 To: priv...@incubator.apache.org Subject: NOMINATIONS for IPMC Chair I nominate __, assuming he is willing and able to handle the workload - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> http://www.grobmeier.de >>> https://www.timeandbill.de >>> >>> - >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >>> >> >> >> ++ >> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. >> Senior Computer Scientist >> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA >> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 >> Email: chris.a.mattm...@nasa.gov >> WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ >> ++ >> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department >> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA >> ++ >> >> >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >> ++ Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. Senior Computer Scientist NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 Email: chris.a.mattm...@nasa.gov WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ ++ Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA ++ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 7:34 AM, Benson Margulies wrote: > It seems to me that the proposed new scheme will take quite a bit of > setting up. There is some writing to do. More to the point, if I were > the board, I would want to pilot the new scheme for some time before > tearing down the existing incubator. All of this looks to me like more > than 2 months. > > A trial balloon: the board appoints Chris to run a PMC to set this up > and try it out -- with the intention of being a short-lived > phenomenon. Meanwhile, Noel or I or some other nominee continue to > make the best of the incubator as we have it, including the gradual > modifications pushed by Sam and Joe. If the board eventually decides > that the ipmc is entirely obviated by the membership and comdev, we'll > hire a bagpiper for the closing ceremony. If it turns out that a small > IPMC providing support and assistance to 'probationary projects' is > desired, we'll go on a diet. > > I just don't think it is realistic to imagine that in 60 days from > some near-term board meeting, we can set up this new plan, debug it, > and transition the existing clutch. While this can't avoid ending up > as electioneering, I don't think it a good idea to simply appoint an > IPMC chairman who is focussed like a laser beam on this restructuring > to the exclusion of making the best of what we're currently doing. This makes sense to me. Podlings are an obvious granularity to try out this. Over a period of years we dissolved Jakarta. We started by graduating Ant and Tomcat to be TLPs. This was once a new concept. Over time, less and less remained under the umbrella. Selecting individual podlings that seem best equipped to try out the new experiment would be a reasonable way to proceed. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
On Feb 3, 2012, at 12:58 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote: > http://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#incubator-pmc > > Shane [check] > Doug [check] > Roy [no] > Jim [check] > Brett [check] > Larry [no] > Sam [check] > Greg [check] > > So that's 7 of 9 board members that are on the Incubator PMC, and > a good chance they are here now, and reading this. > > What do Board members think? IPMC hats on? Great. Board > hats on? Great too. Would be great to get opinions now > rather than have to wait. I respectfully decline to commit one way or another, due to the possibility of it unduly (possibly) swaying things one way or another. I'd prefer the discussion to continue, unfettered, and all of a sudden having director's plop in their opinions will, almost for sure, affect that. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 4:44 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 00:58, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) > wrote: >>... >> And to be honest, even if you (Bill) or the board folks think >> that there should be an Incubation VP, are you willing to at least >> try it my way, and then if all hell breaks loose, simply add the role >> in 6 months (or sooner, if required?) IOW, we accept my proposal asi-is. >> Then in 6 months, we'll see how it's working out, and I'll tell you what, >> if we need an Incubation VP then, I'll be all for it, and even willing to >> sign >> up for it. > > With my Director hat on, I would vote to keep the Incubator VP and > only eliminate it when it is demonstrated to be of no value. As I > mentioned before, I believe there are aspects to incubation that > require a supportive group which cannot simply be shifted to the > podling-TLP or the Board. The Board has enough to do without trying to > *also* verify release processes, check on podling branding and press, > etc. With my Director's hat on, I certainly wouldn't dismiss the proposal out of hand. As Bill pointed out previously, the amount of lines in the monthly board agendas won't materially change. What I care most about is addressed by this proposal: that there be an identified person to which feedback can be directed for each report. Podlings typically have multiple ASF members assigned to them (three is not an atypical number). I believe that the responsibility for verifying release processes, check on podling branding and press is already assigned to these members. If a podling (with the support of the mentors) votes to assign a non ASF-member as the chair, I am OK with that too as long as there are still plenty enough people monitoring the development of the podling. I'll name three concerns / items to be addressed: First, having the board vote on the creation of each podling is a bit too heavy weight. I for one would prefer that that continue to be delegated. Second, the board is not the appropriate vehicle for fine tuning / micro-managing individual projects, much less podlings. A podling that consistently fails to report or fails to address issues identified by the board should expect one or more of: a new chair, people added or removed from the committee, of for the committee to be dissolved entirely. Having a supportive resource (whether that resource goes by the name of 'incubator' or 'comdev', I care not) remains important. Third, we started to move towards a point where having commit access to a podling means commit access to all the incubator. The proposal will need to cover how that is either going to change or how that would be expected to work. > Cheers, > -g - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
It seems to me that the proposed new scheme will take quite a bit of setting up. There is some writing to do. More to the point, if I were the board, I would want to pilot the new scheme for some time before tearing down the existing incubator. All of this looks to me like more than 2 months. A trial balloon: the board appoints Chris to run a PMC to set this up and try it out -- with the intention of being a short-lived phenomenon. Meanwhile, Noel or I or some other nominee continue to make the best of the incubator as we have it, including the gradual modifications pushed by Sam and Joe. If the board eventually decides that the ipmc is entirely obviated by the membership and comdev, we'll hire a bagpiper for the closing ceremony. If it turns out that a small IPMC providing support and assistance to 'probationary projects' is desired, we'll go on a diet. I just don't think it is realistic to imagine that in 60 days from some near-term board meeting, we can set up this new plan, debug it, and transition the existing clutch. While this can't avoid ending up as electioneering, I don't think it a good idea to simply appoint an IPMC chairman who is focussed like a laser beam on this restructuring to the exclusion of making the best of what we're currently doing. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 00:58, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote: >... > And to be honest, even if you (Bill) or the board folks think > that there should be an Incubation VP, are you willing to at least > try it my way, and then if all hell breaks loose, simply add the role > in 6 months (or sooner, if required?) IOW, we accept my proposal asi-is. > Then in 6 months, we'll see how it's working out, and I'll tell you what, > if we need an Incubation VP then, I'll be all for it, and even willing to sign > up for it. With my Director hat on, I would vote to keep the Incubator VP and only eliminate it when it is demonstrated to be of no value. As I mentioned before, I believe there are aspects to incubation that require a supportive group which cannot simply be shifted to the podling-TLP or the Board. The Board has enough to do without trying to *also* verify release processes, check on podling branding and press, etc. Cheers, -g - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote on Thu, Feb 02, 2012 at 20:20:26 -0800: > Thanks Christian. > > I'll accept, thanks for your kind words, and for those of Marvin and > Joe, and the comments from Benson and others. > > I will note that should I be elected into this role, I will state that > I don't intend to be in it very long as I don't intend for it to exist > much longer. Should I be elected I will immediately move to > a proposal/resolution phase and recommendation to the board > to dissolve the Incubator PMC, and to ratify the elements of my > proposal. Which, for the archives, is http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201201.mbox/<25c5ae77-6949-493e-bbd5-eb20869a2...@jpl.nasa.gov>, right? > > I realize that Rome wasn't built in a day, but I'm optimistic > that it can be built not longer after that. > > Cheers, > Chris > > On Feb 1, 2012, at 3:16 PM, Christian Grobmeier wrote: > > > We have already 2 good nominations for the IPMC chair role, Noel and Benson. > > > > I would like add a new name and nominate Chris Mattman as the IPMC > > chair. He does care deeply on the incubator and expresses my feelings > > in many ways. In addition he is a damn nice guy with many ideas. > > > > Cheers > > Christian > > > > On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote: > >> This belongs on general@ ... > >> > >> A call for nominations for Incubator PMC Chair was started on the private@ > >> list. The nomination process should be open to the Incubator community. > >> > >>--- Noel > >> > >> -Original Message- > >> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 11:30 > >> To: priv...@incubator.apache.org > >> Subject: NOMINATIONS for IPMC Chair > >> > >> > >> I nominate __, assuming he is willing and able to handle > >> the > >> workload > >> > >> > >> > >> - > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > http://www.grobmeier.de > > https://www.timeandbill.de > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > > > ++ > Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. > Senior Computer Scientist > NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA > Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 > Email: chris.a.mattm...@nasa.gov > WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ > ++ > Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department > University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA > ++ > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
Hi Bill, On Feb 2, 2012, at 9:32 PM, William A. Rowe Jr. wrote: > On 2/2/2012 10:20 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote: >> Thanks Christian. >> >> I'll accept, thanks for your kind words, and for those of Marvin and >> Joe, and the comments from Benson and others. >> >> I will note that should I be elected into this role, I will state that >> I don't intend to be in it very long as I don't intend for it to exist >> much longer. Should I be elected I will immediately move to >> a proposal/resolution phase and recommendation to the board >> to dissolve the Incubator PMC, and to ratify the elements of my >> proposal. >> >> I realize that Rome wasn't built in a day, but I'm optimistic >> that it can be built not longer after that. > > I'm happy to support you in that effort, even as an assistant chair > (and I'd decline Noel's nomination, thanks though for the thought). > +1 thanks you have been really helping to lead a great discussion and I would welcome your support. > I think once it's proposed the board will make clear why the position > still needs to be filled, even if they accept such a radical rethinking > of the process. I think you would make a good choice on both sides of > the transition, once there is a clear scope for the other side of the > tunnel. Yep no worries. If they do, great. I realize that I'm proposing some pretty radical stuff here. But I think it's actionable and will improve the foundation and that the board will see that. > > I'm happy to help with some of the structure of the incubating-project > resolutions, but my time is a bit too limited to handle the copy and > paste between situations. Thinking that the gist of the transition be > considered and nominally approved or denied by the board in February, > and that in the succeeding three months, those project up for reporting > with three+ accountable mentors be put forward as incubating projects > (unless ready for graduation). Between now and the consideration of > those first projects in March, the structure of incubator.a.o would > need to be altered slighly. Yep, agreed. I'm hoping that each of the podling committees that would transition to TLP during this time could pick up a shovel and help dig the hole(s). I will also help. > > By June, we are left with a handful of projects which simply don't have > mentors or participants to propel them even to the stage of being a TLP > under incubation. And that month would be the logical point to refer > them to the Attic if their IP is clean, or discard them altogether if > resources can't be mustered. It's a long ways off, so lots of time to > intervene between now and then. +1. Bingo. Precisely. Cheers, Chris ++ Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. Senior Computer Scientist NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 Email: chris.a.mattm...@nasa.gov WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ ++ Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA ++ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
Hey Bill, On Feb 2, 2012, at 9:37 PM, William A. Rowe Jr. wrote: > On 2/2/2012 11:38 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote: >>> >>> However, please note that the re-org still has a position that is at least >>> analogous. You would not be getting off so easily. ;-) >> >> :) Nope, it doesn't actually. Please read the thread carefully. That is >> what is being suggested by Bill and by Greg, but I see room to convince >> them otherwise. I think they'll see the light. > > You don't need to convince me :) You would need to convince the board, > and I don't expect them to be receptive. I would rather go forward with > a VP, Project Incubation than to have the board dismiss the proposal out > of hand, if that's how they would have it. Well that's a good question isn't it. A quick check of the current board: http://apache.org/foundation/board/ • Shane Curcuru • Doug Cutting (chairman) • Bertrand Delacretaz • Roy T. Fielding • Jim Jagielski • Brett Porter • Lawrence Rosen • Sam Ruby • Greg Stein A quick check of the Incubator PMC against current board membership: http://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#incubator-pmc Shane [check] Doug [check] Roy [no] Jim [check] Brett [check] Larry [no] Sam [check] Greg [check] So that's 7 of 9 board members that are on the Incubator PMC, and a good chance they are here now, and reading this. What do Board members think? IPMC hats on? Great. Board hats on? Great too. Would be great to get opinions now rather than have to wait. And to be honest, even if you (Bill) or the board folks think that there should be an Incubation VP, are you willing to at least try it my way, and then if all hell breaks loose, simply add the role in 6 months (or sooner, if required?) IOW, we accept my proposal asi-is. Then in 6 months, we'll see how it's working out, and I'll tell you what, if we need an Incubation VP then, I'll be all for it, and even willing to sign up for it. Cheers, Chris ++ Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. Senior Computer Scientist NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 Email: chris.a.mattm...@nasa.gov WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ ++ Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA ++ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
On 2/2/2012 11:38 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote: >> >> However, please note that the re-org still has a position that is at least >> analogous. You would not be getting off so easily. ;-) > > :) Nope, it doesn't actually. Please read the thread carefully. That is > what is being suggested by Bill and by Greg, but I see room to convince > them otherwise. I think they'll see the light. You don't need to convince me :) You would need to convince the board, and I don't expect them to be receptive. I would rather go forward with a VP, Project Incubation than to have the board dismiss the proposal out of hand, if that's how they would have it. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
Hi Noel, On Feb 2, 2012, at 9:22 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote: > Chris, > >> I will note that should I be elected into this role, I will state that >> I don't intend to be in it very long as I don't intend for it to exist >> much longer. > > I spoke with Bill this evening, and have indicated to him that I'd like for > you and he to already start working on the re-org proposal. We'll need to > vote on it, but there seems to be interest in that direction. Yep, I saw it. There's nothing much more to be re-worked, and it's not just between me and Bill. Greg Stein commented too. So did others today, including Joe, Leo, Karl, Marvin and Benson. If you find something incomplete about my proposal, please be specific, and let's discuss it. But it's not for this committee to VOTE on. This committee is unfortunately not functional and has served its purpose to the foundation. I am working on a proposal not for this committee, but for the board itself, to dissolve the Incubator, period, and the Incubator VP role. If I am elected as Incubator VP chair in the interim, fine, but it will only be to facilitiate what I believe to be in the best interests of the foundation: to move towards the proposal, resolution, and implementation of my proposal. Thank you for your great service to the Incubator community and to the ASF. And thanks to the Incubator PMC over the years, and to all the folks who made the Incubator what it is today. It's served its purpose and IMHO time to call the Incubator "delivered", and the need for the role of Incubator VP, complete. > > However, please note that the re-org still has a position that is at least > analogous. You would not be getting off so easily. ;-) :) Nope, it doesn't actually. Please read the thread carefully. That is what is being suggested by Bill and by Greg, but I see room to convince them otherwise. I think they'll see the light. Cheers, Chris ++ Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. Senior Computer Scientist NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 Email: chris.a.mattm...@nasa.gov WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ ++ Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA ++ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
On 2/2/2012 10:20 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote: > Thanks Christian. > > I'll accept, thanks for your kind words, and for those of Marvin and > Joe, and the comments from Benson and others. > > I will note that should I be elected into this role, I will state that > I don't intend to be in it very long as I don't intend for it to exist > much longer. Should I be elected I will immediately move to > a proposal/resolution phase and recommendation to the board > to dissolve the Incubator PMC, and to ratify the elements of my > proposal. > > I realize that Rome wasn't built in a day, but I'm optimistic > that it can be built not longer after that. I'm happy to support you in that effort, even as an assistant chair (and I'd decline Noel's nomination, thanks though for the thought). I think once it's proposed the board will make clear why the position still needs to be filled, even if they accept such a radical rethinking of the process. I think you would make a good choice on both sides of the transition, once there is a clear scope for the other side of the tunnel. I'm happy to help with some of the structure of the incubating-project resolutions, but my time is a bit too limited to handle the copy and paste between situations. Thinking that the gist of the transition be considered and nominally approved or denied by the board in February, and that in the succeeding three months, those project up for reporting with three+ accountable mentors be put forward as incubating projects (unless ready for graduation). Between now and the consideration of those first projects in March, the structure of incubator.a.o would need to be altered slighly. By June, we are left with a handful of projects which simply don't have mentors or participants to propel them even to the stage of being a TLP under incubation. And that month would be the logical point to refer them to the Attic if their IP is clean, or discard them altogether if resources can't be mustered. It's a long ways off, so lots of time to intervene between now and then. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
RE: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
Chris, > I will note that should I be elected into this role, I will state that > I don't intend to be in it very long as I don't intend for it to exist > much longer. I spoke with Bill this evening, and have indicated to him that I'd like for you and he to already start working on the re-org proposal. We'll need to vote on it, but there seems to be interest in that direction. However, please note that the re-org still has a position that is at least analogous. You would not be getting off so easily. ;-) --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
Thanks Christian. I'll accept, thanks for your kind words, and for those of Marvin and Joe, and the comments from Benson and others. I will note that should I be elected into this role, I will state that I don't intend to be in it very long as I don't intend for it to exist much longer. Should I be elected I will immediately move to a proposal/resolution phase and recommendation to the board to dissolve the Incubator PMC, and to ratify the elements of my proposal. I realize that Rome wasn't built in a day, but I'm optimistic that it can be built not longer after that. Cheers, Chris On Feb 1, 2012, at 3:16 PM, Christian Grobmeier wrote: > We have already 2 good nominations for the IPMC chair role, Noel and Benson. > > I would like add a new name and nominate Chris Mattman as the IPMC > chair. He does care deeply on the incubator and expresses my feelings > in many ways. In addition he is a damn nice guy with many ideas. > > Cheers > Christian > > On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote: >> This belongs on general@ ... >> >> A call for nominations for Incubator PMC Chair was started on the private@ >> list. The nomination process should be open to the Incubator community. >> >>--- Noel >> >> -Original Message- >> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 11:30 >> To: priv...@incubator.apache.org >> Subject: NOMINATIONS for IPMC Chair >> >> >> I nominate __, assuming he is willing and able to handle the >> workload >> >> >> >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >> > > > > -- > http://www.grobmeier.de > https://www.timeandbill.de > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > ++ Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. Senior Computer Scientist NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 Email: chris.a.mattm...@nasa.gov WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ ++ Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA ++ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
On 2/1/2012 6:52 PM, Christian Grobmeier wrote: > On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 1:46 AM, Benson Margulies > wrote: >> don't we also have jukka? > > Jukka expressed (to be found somewhere in the archives) he does not > need additonal workload at the moment. In addition he is already > JackRabbit Chair, not sure, but I think 2 chair roles are not possible > at one time. Of course it's possible, there's one individual holding 6 offices at once right now. But is it desirable? That's another question. As he said he's too busy ATM, guess that thread is complete. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 1:46 AM, Benson Margulies wrote: > don't we also have jukka? Jukka expressed (to be found somewhere in the archives) he does not need additonal workload at the moment. In addition he is already JackRabbit Chair, not sure, but I think 2 chair roles are not possible at one time. > > On Feb 1, 2012, at 6:17 PM, Christian Grobmeier wrote: > >> We have already 2 good nominations for the IPMC chair role, Noel and Benson. >> >> I would like add a new name and nominate Chris Mattman as the IPMC >> chair. He does care deeply on the incubator and expresses my feelings >> in many ways. In addition he is a damn nice guy with many ideas. >> >> Cheers >> Christian >> >> On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote: >>> This belongs on general@ ... >>> >>> A call for nominations for Incubator PMC Chair was started on the private@ >>> list. The nomination process should be open to the Incubator community. >>> >>> --- Noel >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 11:30 >>> To: priv...@incubator.apache.org >>> Subject: NOMINATIONS for IPMC Chair >>> >>> >>> I nominate __, assuming he is willing and able to handle the >>> workload >>> >>> >>> >>> - >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> http://www.grobmeier.de >> https://www.timeandbill.de >> >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >> > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > -- http://www.grobmeier.de https://www.timeandbill.de - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
don't we also have jukka? On Feb 1, 2012, at 6:17 PM, Christian Grobmeier wrote: > We have already 2 good nominations for the IPMC chair role, Noel and Benson. > > I would like add a new name and nominate Chris Mattman as the IPMC > chair. He does care deeply on the incubator and expresses my feelings > in many ways. In addition he is a damn nice guy with many ideas. > > Cheers > Christian > > On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote: >> This belongs on general@ ... >> >> A call for nominations for Incubator PMC Chair was started on the private@ >> list. The nomination process should be open to the Incubator community. >> >>--- Noel >> >> -Original Message- >> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 11:30 >> To: priv...@incubator.apache.org >> Subject: NOMINATIONS for IPMC Chair >> >> >> I nominate __, assuming he is willing and able to handle the >> workload >> >> >> >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >> > > > > -- > http://www.grobmeier.de > https://www.timeandbill.de > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
+1! > > From: Marvin Humphrey >To: general@incubator.apache.org >Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2012 7:20 PM >Subject: Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: >NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair) > >On Thu, Feb 02, 2012 at 12:16:22AM +0100, Christian Grobmeier wrote: >> I would like add a new name and nominate Chris Mattman as the IPMC >> chair. He does care deeply on the incubator and expresses my feelings >> in many ways. In addition he is a damn nice guy with many ideas. > >Mattmann has been a dependable and attentive Mentor for Lucy through thick and >thin. His passion for the ASF and the Incubator has been demonstrated in part >by "walking the walk" for us. > >As someone with a deliberative temperament, I also appreciate Chris's JFDI >bulldozer spirit. > >Bonus: Chris types several times faster than a normal human being. > >Marvin Humphrey > > >- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > >
Re: Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
On Thu, Feb 02, 2012 at 12:16:22AM +0100, Christian Grobmeier wrote: > I would like add a new name and nominate Chris Mattman as the IPMC > chair. He does care deeply on the incubator and expresses my feelings > in many ways. In addition he is a damn nice guy with many ideas. Mattmann has been a dependable and attentive Mentor for Lucy through thick and thin. His passion for the ASF and the Incubator has been demonstrated in part by "walking the walk" for us. As someone with a deliberative temperament, I also appreciate Chris's JFDI bulldozer spirit. Bonus: Chris types several times faster than a normal human being. Marvin Humphrey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Nomination of Chris Mattman for the IPMC Chair (was: Re: NOMINATIONS for Incubator PMC Chair)
We have already 2 good nominations for the IPMC chair role, Noel and Benson. I would like add a new name and nominate Chris Mattman as the IPMC chair. He does care deeply on the incubator and expresses my feelings in many ways. In addition he is a damn nice guy with many ideas. Cheers Christian On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote: > This belongs on general@ ... > > A call for nominations for Incubator PMC Chair was started on the private@ > list. The nomination process should be open to the Incubator community. > > --- Noel > > -Original Message- > Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 11:30 > To: priv...@incubator.apache.org > Subject: NOMINATIONS for IPMC Chair > > > I nominate __, assuming he is willing and able to handle the > workload > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > -- http://www.grobmeier.de https://www.timeandbill.de - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
