Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Justin Mclean]

Hi,

I just just sent the second email out (see private for more details). Since the 
first email that was sent we have 18% of people contacted sign up or roster 
otherwise be corrected.

I can see the second email has already encouraged a request to sign up.

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

Hi Justin,

On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 4:01 AM Justin Mclean  wrote:
> Here the subjected text of the email to be sent out, feedback welcome:..

Looks good to me with two suggestions for clarity:

> ...The IPMC is considering removing all IPMC members that have not signed up 
> to the private list...

We are considering removing from the PMC all IPMC members who have not
signed up to the private list...

> ...you may want to consider:
> a) getting involved again
> b) retiring by sending a mail...

I'd say "leaving the IPMC" instead of "retiring".

-Bertrand

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Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Justin Mclean]

Hi,

Here the subjected text of the email to be sent out, feedback welcome:

Title: Removal of IPMC members not signed  up to private list

---
Hi,

We contacted you recently as you are an IPMC member and where not subscribed to 
the Incubator private list. We didn’t hear back from you and you are still not 
subscribed.

The IPMC is considering removing all IPMC members that have not signed up to 
the private list. This is likely to happen in the next month but is dependant 
on IPMC and board approval.

It may be possible that you are subscribed under another email address or look 
at the list at lists.apache.org , if that is the case 
you can you please get in touch and you will not be removed.

If you are removed, and you are an ASF member you can be added back by asking 
at any time. However, it is expected you will sign up to the private mailing 
list when you do so.

If you are not subscribed to the private list, please send an email to:
private-subscr...@incubator.apache.org 


Or subscribe via the subscription helper at:
https://whimsy.apache.org/committers/subscribe 


It may also be that you are no longer involved in the incubator PMC. It that is 
the case you may want to consider:
a) getting involved again
b) retiring by sending a mail saying so to priv...@incubator.apache.org 
.

If you have trouble or questions about the above, please get in touch, and 
we'll help you.

Thanks,
Justin
——

Once we refine the list to send to (see private) and I apply any feedback to 
the above email I’ll send out the email.

Thanks,
Justin

Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Justin Mclean]

Hi,

> With any response? And with knowledge that they may be removed from the IPMC? 
> If not then let’s consider those still in.

No that was not mentioned, we can send out another email with that in. Probably 
about time to do that.

> I think we need to approve the final list on private@

List sent to private, I’ve not gone through all of the data yet so it a work in 
progress.

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Dave Fisher]

Inline

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 21, 2020, at 9:48 PM, Justin Mclean  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
>> I concur with Greg. There are two types of IPMC members who are not 
>> subscribed to private@. Those who are Apache Members who can always ask to 
>> rejoin and others who were voted onto the IPMC would need to be added again 
>> - let’s limit mistakes with the second group. [1]
> 
> There's 6 people that I count in the second group, the first group is a lot 
> larger.
> 
>> I would suggest that the list presented to the board be all who are not 
>> subscribed minus any who have signed off on a podling report since January 
>> 1, 2019.
> 
> I had already filtered to list for couple of people I know that where active, 
> but there's a couple of mentors who may of signed off a report.

Let’s just exclude those ... unless ... below
> 
>> Those in that category should be reached out to directly
> 
> All have been reached directly already.

With any response? And with knowledge that they may be removed from the IPMC? 
If not then let’s consider those still in. I think we need to approve the final 
list on private@

Best,
Dave

> 
> Thanks,
> Justin
> -
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> 


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Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Justin Mclean]

Hi,

> I concur with Greg. There are two types of IPMC members who are not 
> subscribed to private@. Those who are Apache Members who can always ask to 
> rejoin and others who were voted onto the IPMC would need to be added again - 
> let’s limit mistakes with the second group. [1]

There's 6 people that I count in the second group, the first group is a lot 
larger.

> I would suggest that the list presented to the board be all who are not 
> subscribed minus any who have signed off on a podling report since January 1, 
> 2019.

I had already filtered to list for couple of people I know that where active, 
but there's a couple of mentors who may of signed off a report.

> Those in that category should be reached out to directly

All have been reached directly already.

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Dave Fisher]

Hi -

I concur with Greg. There are two types of IPMC members who are not subscribed 
to private@. Those who are Apache Members who can always ask to rejoin and 
others who were voted onto the IPMC would need to be added again - let’s limit 
mistakes with the second group. [1]

I would suggest that the list presented to the board be all who are not 
subscribed minus any who have signed off on a podling report since January 1, 
2019. Those in that category should be reached out to directly - I noticed at 
least one. I also noticed at least two in the second group who did very little 
to nothing when they were mentors.

Regards,
Dave

[1] https://whimsy.apache.org/roster/committee/incubator

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 21, 2020, at 6:34 PM, Justin Mclean  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
>> IMO, involuntary mailing list subscription is not the right choice. …
> 
> Thanks for your opinion, I’ll consider what to do some more.
> 
>> Putting them onto a mailing list could anger them (think about it: would you 
>> be
>> happy, if I subscribed you to (say) priv...@tomee.apache.org?). 
> 
> If I was required to be subscribed to that list I would have no issue with 
> it, probably even thankful that you had sorted something I’d forgotten about, 
> but sure others may react differently.
> 
> Thanks,
> Justin
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
> 

Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Justin Mclean]

Hi,

> IMO, involuntary mailing list subscription is not the right choice. …

Thanks for your opinion, I’ll consider what to do some more.

>  Putting them onto a mailing list could anger them (think about it: would you 
> be
> happy, if I subscribed you to (say) priv...@tomee.apache.org?). 

If I was required to be subscribed to that list I would have no issue with it, 
probably even thankful that you had sorted something I’d forgotten about, but 
sure others may react differently.

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Greg Stein]

IMO, involuntary mailing list subscription is not the right choice. ...
Just take your list of AWOL non-responders to the Board, and ask if there
are any objections to placing them on a "removal" resolution for the
February meeting. The Board may provide some guidance/steps to take. Or
they may say "roll with it. submit a resolution".

In other words, go with the least imposition on the missing IPMC peeps.
Assume they're just not interested, so they didn't respond to you. Putting
them onto a mailing list could anger them (think about it: would you be
happy, if I subscribed you to (say) priv...@tomee.apache.org?). And take
the position they can be re-added to the IPMC, any time, if the (upcoming)
removal happened to be in error.

Cheers,
-g


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 5:24 PM Justin Mclean 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > There is another (perhaps more obvious) solution and that is to sign
> these people up to the mailing list.
>
> I’ve not had any feedback on this, so unless someone else has some input,
> I’m going to assign lazy consensus applies and this is what I’m going to do:
>
> 1. Subscribe all missing IPMC members to the private list
> 2. If some complain ask if they want to continue to be IPMC members
> 3. If too many complain, remove them and discussion with the board on the
> possibility of removing these IPMC members. This would involve contacting
> them again so they are clear on what would happen if they don’t sign up.
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>
>

Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Justin Mclean]

Hi,

> There is another (perhaps more obvious) solution and that is to sign these 
> people up to the mailing list.

I’ve not had any feedback on this, so unless someone else has some input, I’m 
going to assign lazy consensus applies and this is what I’m going to do:

1. Subscribe all missing IPMC members to the private list
2. If some complain ask if they want to continue to be IPMC members
3. If too many complain, remove them and discussion with the board on the 
possibility of removing these IPMC members. This would involve contacting them 
again so they are clear on what would happen if they don’t sign up.

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Justin Mclean]

Hi,

There is another (perhaps more obvious) solution and that is to sign these 
people up to the mailing list.

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Justin Mclean]

HI,

> That would work for me, after sending them a warning that this is
> going to happen.
> 
> We probably have many inactive PMC members - Whimsy lists 298 of them
> and 46 podlings so I suppose we don't have more than 100 PMC members
> actually active.

I’m not sure how many are PPMC membersactive, but with the mentors about 10-15 
of them are inactive to some extent, we do have active PPMC members who are not 
mentors.

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Dave Fisher]

Inline

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 16, 2020, at 4:48 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
>> On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 6:25 AM Justin Mclean  
>> wrote:
>> ...Do we want to consider the drastic step of removing all IPMC from the PMC 
>> who are not signed
>> up to the private mailing list? They could re-instated themselves by 
>> subscribing to the private list...
> 
> That would work for me, after sending them a warning that this is
> going to happen.
> 
> We probably have many inactive PMC members - Whimsy lists 298 of them
> and 46 podlings so I suppose we don't have more than 100 PMC members
> actually active.

Http://Incubator.apache.org/clutch shows the list of current mentors. There are 
86. A good rule for approximation is 2 x the number of podlings (46)

Regards,
Dave

> 
> -Bertrand
> 
> -
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> 


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Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Dave Fisher]

Hi Ning,

I think I recall that I woke up one morning to find four subscription requests 
from you. It could have been someone else. All requests to private-subscribe 
need a human response to an email to the moderators. The moderator then must 
respond to the most recent request. Multiple requests end up increasing the 
likelihood of frustration.

Regards,
Dave

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 16, 2020, at 12:53 AM, Ning Wang  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> It took me a few months before successfully signed up the private@ mailng
> list after Josh told me the trick (go to
> https://whimsy.apache.org/committers/subscribe and subscribe there) :(
> I am feeling that many of these people might have tried the normal way
> (sending a subscribe email to the mailing list) and failed (and it is not
> clear how to verify).
> 
> Maybe it is better to send them the trick (I mean the instruction) and then
> give them some time before cleaning up?
> 
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 9:25 PM Justin Mclean 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I can see a couple of people have signed up and a couple of inactive IPMC
>> members have asked to be removed. However we still have a large number of
>> IPMC members are still not subscribed to the private list.
>> 
>> A possible idea. Do we want to consider the drastic step of removing all
>> IPMC from the PMC who are not signed up to the private mailing list? They
>> could re-instated themselves by subscribing to the private list.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Justin
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>> 
>> 


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Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Dave Fisher]

Hi -

I signed up to moderate private@incubator sometime last year. I’ve confirmed 
many subscriptions since. This includes several in the past week.

In order to help their podlings Mentors need to understand moderation in order 
to establish the podling PPMC properly.

Doing a search on www.apache.org should help find out how. Or ask here.

Regards,
Dave

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 16, 2020, at 6:39 AM, Greg Stein  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 7:41 AM Trevor Grant 
> wrote:
> 
>> @Greg, I would echo Ning's point.
>> 
> 
> I saw Ning's post before my own response, and (frankly) have little
> sympathy. Email exists to ask questions and solve problems. "I can't get
> subscribed. Please help" is very easy to send. If a member of the IPMC has
> not bothered, then they are not fulfilling their responsibilities. I am
> also guessing that Justin is only considering members of the IPMC that
> joined (say) more than a year ago. So we could say "if you want to join the
> IPMC, we'll give you an ENTIRE YEAR to figure out how to join one of the
> mailing lists at Apache". ... and to return to my original point: no
> sympathy. If "you" cannot figure out how to subscribe to an Apache mailing
> list over the span of a mere week, then what are you doing as an IPMC
> Member and/or Mentor?
> 
> Personal responsibility.
> 
> Step up. Figure it out. Get it done.
> -g


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Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Greg Stein]

On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 7:41 AM Trevor Grant 
wrote:

> @Greg, I would echo Ning's point.
>

I saw Ning's post before my own response, and (frankly) have little
sympathy. Email exists to ask questions and solve problems. "I can't get
subscribed. Please help" is very easy to send. If a member of the IPMC has
not bothered, then they are not fulfilling their responsibilities. I am
also guessing that Justin is only considering members of the IPMC that
joined (say) more than a year ago. So we could say "if you want to join the
IPMC, we'll give you an ENTIRE YEAR to figure out how to join one of the
mailing lists at Apache". ... and to return to my original point: no
sympathy. If "you" cannot figure out how to subscribe to an Apache mailing
list over the span of a mere week, then what are you doing as an IPMC
Member and/or Mentor?

Personal responsibility.

Step up. Figure it out. Get it done.
-g

Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Trevor Grant]

@Greg, I would echo Ning's point.

I've been trying to be an active mentor- and found that I am deficient in
most, if not all, of the technical things I need to be doing (like signed
up for mailing lists) bc no one ever told me.

The first whiff that something was wrong we had an email to
private@my-poding that simply stated "multiple people need to be signed up
for this list"  but there was no pointer to what list the email was even
referring to.

So before booting a bunch of well meaning mentors- I agree that corrective
guidance should please be given.

The private list thing seems like a good idea, but it took me a month to
even get setup for that. (From time of volunteering to mentor to when I got
granted as an IPMC in whatever system that allowed me to sign up).  Which
goes back to Justin's original email- how does one sign up for private@ if
one is not a member of the PMC??

tg




On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 6:48 AM Bertrand Delacretaz <
bdelacre...@codeconsult.ch> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 6:25 AM Justin Mclean 
> wrote:
> > ...Do we want to consider the drastic step of removing all IPMC from the
> PMC who are not signed
> > up to the private mailing list? They could re-instated themselves by
> subscribing to the private list...
>
> That would work for me, after sending them a warning that this is
> going to happen.
>
> We probably have many inactive PMC members - Whimsy lists 298 of them
> and 46 podlings so I suppose we don't have more than 100 PMC members
> actually active.
>
> -Bertrand
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>
>

Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

Hi,

On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 6:25 AM Justin Mclean  wrote:
> ...Do we want to consider the drastic step of removing all IPMC from the PMC 
> who are not signed
> up to the private mailing list? They could re-instated themselves by 
> subscribing to the private list...

That would work for me, after sending them a warning that this is
going to happen.

We probably have many inactive PMC members - Whimsy lists 298 of them
and 46 podlings so I suppose we don't have more than 100 PMC members
actually active.

-Bertrand

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Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Greg Stein]

In the past, I've made my position clear: if an IPMC member cannot be
bothered to get themselves subscribed to the private list, then they are
not providing appropriate oversight, and (thus) should be removed from the
PMC. They can continue to contribute via the general@ list, but lose their
(binding) status due to removal from the IPMC.

Cheers,
-g


On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:25 PM Justin Mclean 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I can see a couple of people have signed up and a couple of inactive IPMC
> members have asked to be removed. However we still have a large number of
> IPMC members are still not subscribed to the private list.
>
> A possible idea. Do we want to consider the drastic step of removing all
> IPMC from the PMC who are not signed up to the private mailing list? They
> could re-instated themselves by subscribing to the private list.
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>
>

Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Ning Wang]

Hi,

It took me a few months before successfully signed up the private@ mailng
list after Josh told me the trick (go to
https://whimsy.apache.org/committers/subscribe and subscribe there) :(
I am feeling that many of these people might have tried the normal way
(sending a subscribe email to the mailing list) and failed (and it is not
clear how to verify).

Maybe it is better to send them the trick (I mean the instruction) and then
give them some time before cleaning up?



On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 9:25 PM Justin Mclean 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I can see a couple of people have signed up and a couple of inactive IPMC
> members have asked to be removed. However we still have a large number of
> IPMC members are still not subscribed to the private list.
>
> A possible idea. Do we want to consider the drastic step of removing all
> IPMC from the PMC who are not signed up to the private mailing list? They
> could re-instated themselves by subscribing to the private list.
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>
>

Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Justin Mclean]

Hi,

I can see a couple of people have signed up and a couple of inactive IPMC 
members have asked to be removed. However we still have a large number of IPMC 
members are still not subscribed to the private list.

A possible idea. Do we want to consider the drastic step of removing all IPMC 
from the PMC who are not signed up to the private mailing list? They could 
re-instated themselves by subscribing to the private list.

Thanks,
Justin
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