Re: Cultural homogeneity
On Sun, 6 Jan 2002 16:10, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: I was leafing through my copy of A Pattern Language by Alexander, Ishikawa and Silverstein, which is really about architecture of human habitat (buildings and environs), and ran across some interesting assertions about society and groups. good book. The summary for me is that I think that the Apache sub communities are valuable, and should be kept. ok. I guess thats one reading of it but if anything the snippets you provided seem to me to encourage merging of XML and jakarta if anything ;) Effectively XML/Jakarta would become a single city with a mosaic of subcultures. Already we have different sub-cultures which are effectively defined by the committers - when a committer is a member of multiple projects they tend to imbue the projects with their own culture. However I guess you were trying to support the exact opposit view so I will shut up now ;) -- Cheers, Pete --- Therefore it can be said that victorious warriors win first, and then go to battle, while defeated warriors go to battle first, and then seek to win. - Sun Tzu, the Art Of War --- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cultural homogeneity
Peter Donald wrote: Effectively XML/Jakarta would become a single city with a mosaic of subcultures. Already we have different sub-cultures which are effectively defined by the committers - when a committer is a member of multiple projects they tend to imbue the projects with their own culture. With some committers being more viral than others, eh Peter? ;-) - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cultural homogeneity
I agree except that I think the cities here are the subprojects, like Velocity and Struts, and the projects, like Jakarta and XML, are just arbitrary containers (lines on a map). Subprojects are like cities, Projects are like states (or provinces), and ASF is the nation. I don't think an individual's loyalty, or sense of identity, depends on the Project, but to the subproject and the ASF. -Ted. Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: I was leafing through my copy of A Pattern Language by Alexander, Ishikawa and Silverstein, which is really about architecture of human habitat (buildings and environs), and ran across some interesting assertions about society and groups. I haven't read the book end to end, as I just pick it up and read bits and pieces, but I am generally struck by the validity of the basic insights expressed. I thought I would share, as my thinking about removing community containers here in Jakarta, XML et al resonates well this. There is nothing which says the following is any more valid than any other point of view expressed here, so this shouldn't be read as an appeal to some kind of 'authority' (like we *never* do that here...) - just interesting as it comes from another intellectual discipline studying the exact problems we are trying to grapple with. The summary for me is that I think that the Apache sub communities are valuable, and should be kept. The homogeneous and undifferentiated character of modern cities kills all varieties of life styles and arrests the growth of individual character. (p43) Kind of general as the assertion, the text then talks about three kinds of structure, heterogeneous (bland and conformist), ghetto (organized by economic or physical characteristics, traps and isolates groups), and mosaic of subcultures, the latter being the preference, with the conclusion : Do everything possible to enrich the cultures and subcultures of the city, by breaking the city, as far as possible, into a vast mosaic of small and different subcultures, each with it's own spatial territory, and each with the power to create it's own distinct life style. Make sure that the subcultures are small enough so that each person has access to the full variety of life styles in the subcultures near his own. I think the notion of power to create it's own distinct lifestyle is the important aspect that applies to the issue of disbanding the community boundaries distinguishing XML and Jakarta. Individuals have no effective voice in any community of more than 5,000 - 10,000 persons (p 71) While I don't think that the quantitative values are important, I think the fundamental idea is sound - in order for individual voices to be heard, the group has to be small enough. The conclusion : Decentralize city governments in a way that gives local control to communities [...]. As nearly as possible, use natural geographic and historical boundaries to mark those communities. Give each community the power to initiate, decide and execute the affairs that concern it closely. I think I don't need to explain how this applies to us :) There's more, but I'm beat. Happy weekend. :) -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Be a giant. Take giant steps. Do giant things... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cultural homogeneity
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: I thought I would share, as my thinking about removing community containers here in Jakarta, XML et al resonates well this. Personally, I just think its mainly a matter of packaging. By definination, we are all trying to share the same ASF culture, though each codebase will have its own flavor. Lumping everything together under one heading tends to confuse human beings. I think the projects, like XML and Jakarta, make for useful headings, mainly because that how people conceptualize entities like this. I think both XML and Java/Jakarta make for fine headings. This is overlap between them, but that happens. Moving forward, I might suggest that both Projects ask themselves what type of products they want to carry on their homepage. Should XML be just XML-based, or XML and document-based. Does it confuse people to find product like Batik listed there? Should Jakarta products all have strong ties to server-side technologies? Or is just being Java good enough? If we think of XML as a document-based technology, then it could make sense to see projects like Alexandria, Jetspeed, and Slide under XML -- especially since XML already hosts SOAP and RPC-XML. Likewise, it could also make sense for Batik, FOP, and Xang to be under the Jakarta umbrella. And, given an XML-Commons, should not the Digester live there, with other XML tools? Realistically, many of these placements have been the coincidence of where a committer was already involved. It's easier to bring things up on a list to which you are already subscribed. So we do. So two concrete actions I would suggest for now are: (1) That we petition the ASF to change our charter and remove the word server, so what we are simply charged with providing production quality solutions on the Java platform. [I'd link to our charter, but can't find the ASF minutes any more, and don't know where else it was published.] (2) That we ask XML if they would like to merge our general lists, so we can more easily discuss matters like this. I'm happy to have POI here, but would really like to know how XML feels about it. Alternatively, perhaps we might consider something like a public apache-projects list, where all the PMCs would meet and discuss issues like this, and conduct the formal votes, and let the general lists revert back to a chat room. -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA. -- Building Java web applications with Struts. -- Tel +1 585 737-3463. -- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cultural homogeneity
On 1/6/02 3:52 AM, Peter Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 6 Jan 2002 16:10, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: I was leafing through my copy of A Pattern Language by Alexander, Ishikawa and Silverstein, which is really about architecture of human habitat (buildings and environs), and ran across some interesting assertions about society and groups. good book. The summary for me is that I think that the Apache sub communities are valuable, and should be kept. ok. I guess thats one reading of it but if anything the snippets you provided seem to me to encourage merging of XML and jakarta if anything ;) Effectively XML/Jakarta would become a single city with a mosaic of subcultures. Already we have different sub-cultures which are effectively defined by the committers - when a committer is a member of multiple projects they tend to imbue the projects with their own culture. Apache is a single city with a mosaic of subcultures, some of which might be really different in their interests and behaviors, and some are very much alike. Because we are all under one umbrella, and we have open, porous borders, we are free to visit and even belong to other subcultures as well. However I guess you were trying to support the exact opposit view so I will shut up now ;) Don't shut up, but yes indeed I was :) -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting He who throws mud only loses ground. - Fat Albert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cultural homogeneity
On 1/6/02 8:06 AM, Ted Husted [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: I thought I would share, as my thinking about removing community containers here in Jakarta, XML et al resonates well this. Personally, I just think its mainly a matter of packaging. By definination, we are all trying to share the same ASF culture, though each codebase will have its own flavor. If you really believe this, then the right thing is to get rid of *all* containers : Jakarta + HTTPD + XML + TCL + PHP + APR + Perl Lumping everything together under one heading tends to confuse human beings. I think the projects, like XML and Jakarta, make for useful headings, mainly because that how people conceptualize entities like this. And there is no difference in culture? I don't know the answer, but watching the discussion about XML lately, I would think that there *are* differences, so there must be *something* to it. I think both XML and Java/Jakarta make for fine headings. This is overlap between them, but that happens. Moving forward, I might suggest that both Projects ask themselves what type of products they want to carry on their homepage. Should XML be just XML-based, or XML and document-based. Does it confuse people to find product like Batik listed there? Should Jakarta products all have strong ties to server-side technologies? Or is just being Java good enough? If we think of XML as a document-based technology, then it could make sense to see projects like Alexandria, Jetspeed, and Slide under XML -- especially since XML already hosts SOAP and RPC-XML. Likewise, it could also make sense for Batik, FOP, and Xang to be under the Jakarta umbrella. And, given an XML-Commons, should not the Digester live there, with other XML tools? Realistically, many of these placements have been the coincidence of where a committer was already involved. It's easier to bring things up on a list to which you are already subscribed. So we do. So two concrete actions I would suggest for now are: (1) That we petition the ASF to change our charter and remove the word server, so what we are simply charged with providing production quality solutions on the Java platform. I would like to see some opinions on the idea of working to form another apache subproject focused on the client side and if anyone thinks that makes sense. [I'd link to our charter, but can't find the ASF minutes any more, and don't know where else it was published.] (2) That we ask XML if they would like to merge our general lists, so we can more easily discuss matters like this. I'm happy to have POI here, but would really like to know how XML feels about it. Alternatively, perhaps we might consider something like a public apache-projects list, where all the PMCs would meet and discuss issues like this, and conduct the formal votes, and let the general lists revert back to a chat room. -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA. -- Building Java web applications with Struts. -- Tel +1 585 737-3463. -- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting We will be judged not by the monuments we build, but by the monuments we destroy - Ada Louise Huxtable -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cultural homogeneity
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On 1/6/02 8:06 AM, Ted Husted [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: I thought I would share, as my thinking about removing community containers here in Jakarta, XML et al resonates well this. Personally, I just think its mainly a matter of packaging. By definination, we are all trying to share the same ASF culture, though each codebase will have its own flavor. If you really believe this, then the right thing is to get rid of *all* containers : Jakarta + HTTPD + XML + TCL + PHP + APR + Perl I believe that the subcultures exist mainly at the subproject level. The subprojects, like many states and provinces are, simply granfalloons. http://www.kcoyle.net/granfalloons.html I believe the projects are useful as an organizational entity, but have little impact on the culture of a subproject. If the two were at varience, the subproject would fork. People do not join the project, they join the subproject. The projects are happenstance, but they are useful as an organizational convenience. I also believe that the PMCs themselves should be seen as an organizational entity, and conversations like this should be taking place on a public apache-projects list that all PMCs would be invited to join and use for PMC business. It is very difficult to have a reasonable conversation about POI, or RPC-XML, or the others that have come up, when the other PMCs are not part of the discussion. -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA. -- Building Java web applications with Struts. -- Tel +1 585 737-3463. -- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cultural homogeneity
Ooops, should have been I believe that the subcultures exist mainly at the subproject level. The PROJECTS, like many states and provinces are, simply granfalloons. http://www.kcoyle.net/granfalloons.html -T. Ted Husted wrote: Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On 1/6/02 8:06 AM, Ted Husted [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: I thought I would share, as my thinking about removing community containers here in Jakarta, XML et al resonates well this. Personally, I just think its mainly a matter of packaging. By definination, we are all trying to share the same ASF culture, though each codebase will have its own flavor. If you really believe this, then the right thing is to get rid of *all* containers : Jakarta + HTTPD + XML + TCL + PHP + APR + Perl I believe that the subcultures exist mainly at the subproject level. The subprojects, like many states and provinces are, simply granfalloons. http://www.kcoyle.net/granfalloons.html I believe the projects are useful as an organizational entity, but have little impact on the culture of a subproject. If the two were at varience, the subproject would fork. People do not join the project, they join the subproject. The projects are happenstance, but they are useful as an organizational convenience. I also believe that the PMCs themselves should be seen as an organizational entity, and conversations like this should be taking place on a public apache-projects list that all PMCs would be invited to join and use for PMC business. It is very difficult to have a reasonable conversation about POI, or RPC-XML, or the others that have come up, when the other PMCs are not part of the discussion. -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA. -- Building Java web applications with Struts. -- Tel +1 585 737-3463. -- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cultural homogeneity
On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 00:22, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On 1/6/02 8:06 AM, Ted Husted [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: I thought I would share, as my thinking about removing community containers here in Jakarta, XML et al resonates well this. Personally, I just think its mainly a matter of packaging. By definination, we are all trying to share the same ASF culture, though each codebase will have its own flavor. If you really believe this, then the right thing is to get rid of *all* containers : Jakarta + HTTPD + XML + TCL + PHP + APR + Perl I have no idea about them but in the case of Jakarta-XML there is considerable cross-talk. All XML projects use some jakarta technologies and most (all?) jakarta projects use XML technologies. I doubt that could be said about TCL and Perl or PHP and APR etc. Lumping everything together under one heading tends to confuse human beings. I think the projects, like XML and Jakarta, make for useful headings, mainly because that how people conceptualize entities like this. And there is no difference in culture? No different than what we already have here. I have to think in very different ways when I contribute to ant as opposed to Avalon because they have a very different philosophy. I don't know the answer, but watching the discussion about XML lately, I would think that there *are* differences, so there must be *something* to it. What was the specific point that made you think XML is somehow different from jakarta? (1) That we petition the ASF to change our charter and remove the word server, so what we are simply charged with providing production quality solutions on the Java platform. +1 I would like to see some opinions on the idea of working to form another apache subproject focused on the client side and if anyone thinks that makes sense. Maybe we could just start having sub-catgories within Jakarta. So basically Jakarta is still the top level project but we have a software map underneath it that categorizes project (ie tools, xml parserns, servers, whatever). (2) That we ask XML if they would like to merge our general lists, so we can more easily discuss matters like this. I'm happy to have POI here, but would really like to know how XML feels about it. Alternatively, perhaps we might consider something like a public apache-projects list, where all the PMCs would meet and discuss issues like this, and conduct the formal votes, and let the general lists revert back to a chat room. I can't see the PHP people being too interested in that :) The only people who may be interested being XML peeps ... which kinda supports the stance that they aren't all that different from jakarta -- Cheers, Pete - We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time -- T.S. Eliot - -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cultural homogeneity
Ted Husted wrote: (1) That we petition the ASF to change our charter and remove the word server, so what we are simply charged with providing production quality solutions on the Java platform. [I'd link to our charter, but can't find the ASF minutes any more, and don't know where else it was published.] Found our copy at least -- http://jakarta.apache.org/site/pmc/01-03-19-meeting-summary.html at 2.1 So I'm thinking we might propose that our charter be amended to RESOLVED, that the Jakarta Project Management Committee be and hereby is responsible for the creation and maintenance of -1 commercial-quality, open-source, server-side solutions for the Java +1 commercial-quality, open-source solutions for the Java Platform based on software licensed to the Foundation; and be it further So that Ant, BCEL, and whatever would no longer be out of scope, and we could also consider client-side Java packages when they are proposed. -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA. -- Building Java web applications with Struts. -- Tel +1 585 737-3463. -- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cultural homogeneity
Ted Husted wrote: So I'm thinking we might propose that our charter be amended to RESOLVED, that the Jakarta Project Management Committee be and hereby is responsible for the creation and maintenance of -1 commercial-quality, open-source, server-side solutions for the Java +1 commercial-quality, open-source solutions for the Java Platform based on software licensed to the Foundation; and be it further I think Roy's reaction is highly predicatable, and should be anticipated. From http://jakarta.apache.org/site/pmc/01-01-17-meeting-minutes.html : Roy identified two potential showstoppers and (1) if there was overlap with other PMCs (example: Cocoon), and (2) if the new proposed PMC could not demonstrate that there is adequate coverage. - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cultural homogeneity
Peter Donald wrote: Alternatively, perhaps we might consider something like a public apache-projects list, where all the PMCs would meet and discuss issues like this, and conduct the formal votes, and let the general lists revert back to a chat room. I can't see the PHP people being too interested in that :) I can name one PHP person who would be. ;-) - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cultural homogeneity
At 10:29 06.01.2002 -0500, you wrote: Ted Husted wrote: (1) That we petition the ASF to change our charter and remove the word server, so what we are simply charged with providing production quality solutions on the Java platform. [I'd link to our charter, but can't find the ASF minutes any more, and don't know where else it was published.] Found our copy at least -- http://jakarta.apache.org/site/pmc/01-03-19-meeting-summary.html at 2.1 So I'm thinking we might propose that our charter be amended to RESOLVED, that the Jakarta Project Management Committee be and hereby is responsible for the creation and maintenance of -1 commercial-quality, open-source, server-side solutions for the Java +1 commercial-quality, open-source solutions for the Java Platform based on software licensed to the Foundation; and be it further Some of the existing projects within Jakarta are server-side only, others are client-side as well as server-side, none are client-side only. Removing the server-side restriction would allow strictly client side applications such as word processors, editors, spread sheet programs, etc. into jakarta. Rewording of the charter is perhaps appropriate but completely removing the server-side restriction is not. I consequently vote -1 on the proposed change. So that Ant, BCEL, and whatever would no longer be out of scope, and we could also consider client-side Java packages when they are proposed. Would you care to propose a different wording? -- Ceki Gülcü - http://qos.ch -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cultural homogeneity
Sam Ruby wrote: I think Roy's reaction is highly predicatable, and should be anticipated. From http://jakarta.apache.org/site/pmc/01-01-17-meeting-minutes.html : Roy identified two potential showstoppers and (1) if there was overlap with other PMCs (example: Cocoon), and (2) if the new proposed PMC could not demonstrate that there is adequate coverage. Sam, when you do this cheshire cat thing, I'm never sure what you are insinuating. I could see Roy saying no, because he believed Jakarta was too big last year. Or, I could see Roy saying yes, because he deeply believes decision-making should be pushed down. Since this is a meritocracy, and we are doing the work of Jakarta, Roy's core belief in meritocracy could outweigh his personal inclinations. Or not, I really can't say. I've never spoken to Roy about this myself, and all I know is what I see in the public emails. The other thing that went around last year implied that we could fragment Jakarta or change its scope. We then trebled the size of the PMC, but apparently skirted the scope issue. When the documentation and code disagree, both are usually wrong. -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA. -- Building Java web applications with Struts. -- Tel +1 585 737-3463. -- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cultural homogeneity
On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 03:08, Ceki Gülcü wrote: Some of the existing projects within Jakarta are server-side only, others are client-side as well as server-side, none are client-side only. except for JMeter ? -- Cheers, Pete --- | I thought there was a knob on the TV to turn up the intelligence. | | There's a knob called brightness, but it doesn't work. | --- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]
Here we go again, -Original Message- From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 4:45 AM Playing Devil's advocate. I think it's fair to push back on adding things to Jakarta... On 1/5/02 9:53 PM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please read these posts and then tell me where you're not clear? http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg02681.html Isn't it fair to guess that the majority of your server side use would be reading documents for presentation, indexing, searching? WHY for presentation? Most of the time you would batch convert Word and Excel docs to HTML if needed, and there are specialized tools for that. However, you point out in the above link that the thing that makes POI special is it's ability to *write*? What's the % of mainly writing to mainly reading on the serverside? As mentioned in my previous posting, it is JUST like Velocity writing HTML. http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg02685.html Paulo might use VB to make a client side app, but I wouldn't if I wanted portability, especially if I was looking to the handheld or embedded application that could access a document remotely... Are there many uses for writing Word/Excel documents in a client-side device that has not Word or Excel installed??? And AFAIK, if you have Word and Excel, you have at least some Basic scripting... but maybe you do not have Java. ... Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cultural homogeneity
On 1/6/02 10:29 AM, Ted Husted [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ted Husted wrote: (1) That we petition the ASF to change our charter and remove the word server, so what we are simply charged with providing production quality solutions on the Java platform. [I'd link to our charter, but can't find the ASF minutes any more, and don't know where else it was published.] Found our copy at least -- http://jakarta.apache.org/site/pmc/01-03-19-meeting-summary.html at 2.1 So I'm thinking we might propose that our charter be amended to RESOLVED, that the Jakarta Project Management Committee be and hereby is responsible for the creation and maintenance of -1 commercial-quality, open-source, server-side solutions for the Java +1 commercial-quality, open-source solutions for the Java Platform based on software licensed to the Foundation; and be it further So that Ant, BCEL, and whatever would no longer be out of scope, and we could also consider client-side Java packages when they are proposed. I'll continue to swim upstream. Take POI, Ant, BCEL, Oro, Regexp and make that the core of a new client-side project... Not that I think little of Ant, Oro, BCEL and Regexp - actually the converse - I think that they are valuable assets, so I don't say this lightly. I lurk on the Ant list, and know for certain it's a vibrant, active, productive community, and I know that it would be a great anchor for a new project - it's full of people steeped in the jakarta tradition, would be an attractor to users because of the popularity of ant. However, I still worry about the effects on Jakarta. -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Be a giant. Take giant steps. Do giant things... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cultural homogeneity
At 03:35 07.01.2002 +1100, you wrote: On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 03:08, Ceki Gülcü wrote: Some of the existing projects within Jakarta are server-side only, others are client-side as well as server-side, none are client-side only. except for JMeter ? Well, JMeter is a client application to test the performance of a web server. It can't do anything else but test a server. So imho it's more server-side than many other projects we currently have. Server-side software in the case of Jakarta means software that is commonly executed by servers, most notably within servlet containers. This may include software that runs on the client but excludes software that runs *only* on client. So, the word server-side might require some further clarification, but removing it completely is not just a cosmetic change. It means opening the flood-gates. -- Ceki Gülcü - http://qos.ch -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cultural homogeneity
On 1/6/02 11:38 AM, Peter Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 03:25, Ted Husted wrote: Sam Ruby wrote: I think Roy's reaction is highly predicatable, and should be anticipated. From http://jakarta.apache.org/site/pmc/01-01-17-meeting-minutes.html : Roy identified two potential showstoppers and (1) if there was overlap with other PMCs (example: Cocoon), and (2) if the new proposed PMC could not demonstrate that there is adequate coverage. Sam, when you do this cheshire cat thing, I'm never sure what you are insinuating. Im glad I'm not the only one that happens to ;) Drives me up the wall :) -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]
On 1/6/02 12:18 PM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here we go again, Alas. -Original Message- From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 4:45 AM Playing Devil's advocate. I think it's fair to push back on adding things to Jakarta... On 1/5/02 9:53 PM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please read these posts and then tell me where you're not clear? http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg02681.html Isn't it fair to guess that the majority of your server side use would be reading documents for presentation, indexing, searching? WHY for presentation? Most of the time you would batch convert Word and Excel docs to HTML if needed, and there are specialized tools for that. 'presentation' in the sense of 'reading data out to show in some manner', not 'on the desktop'. However, you point out in the above link that the thing that makes POI special is it's ability to *write*? What's the % of mainly writing to mainly reading on the serverside? As mentioned in my previous posting, it is JUST like Velocity writing HTML. Huh? You have to explain that a little more - I don't quite get it. http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg02685.html Paulo might use VB to make a client side app, but I wouldn't if I wanted portability, especially if I was looking to the handheld or embedded application that could access a document remotely... Are there many uses for writing Word/Excel documents in a client-side device that has not Word or Excel installed??? You might find this unbelieveable, but not everyone works on a computer that runs an operating system that has Word or Excel available. And AFAIK, if you have Word and Excel, you have at least some Basic scripting... but maybe you do not have Java. ... Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting He who throws mud only loses ground. - Fat Albert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]
Again... -Original Message- From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 6:14 PM On 1/6/02 12:11 PM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... Lots of is it server or is it client talk ... I just mean that sometimes saying that something is server-side or client-side just makes no sense. As Ceki puts it, maybe JMeter is one of the few clearly server-side products in Jakarta. BTW... is Log4J server-side? =;o) From what I read, POI is an API that accesses data in XLS files... Theres a huge difference. And Cocoon isn't part of Jakarta, is it? :) JUST because it is XML centric, which POI is not. Right. I wasn't advocating it going to XML-land - it doesn't seem to belong there either. It am still not aware of any valid argument that clearly states why it does not belong to Jakarta or why it belongs. It is just like BCEL or Log4J - some people wanted those projects here because they had use for them or were already using them. Nothing to do with serversideness!!! BTW, do you know they use Velocity for something??? Who, POI? NO! Cocoon! ... Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]
On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 04:14, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: BTW, do you know they use Velocity for something??? Who, POI? Cocoon have a VelocityGenerator (the first stage in their XML transformation pipeline). -- Cheers, Pete -- you've made a dangerous leap right over common sense, like some kind of metaphysical Evil Knievel -- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cultural homogeneity
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: I'll continue to swim upstream. Take POI, Ant, BCEL, Oro, Regexp and make that the core of a new client-side project... Our e-mails crossed in the ether. My point: the above needs a champion. And the proposal needs to be supported by the committers of the affected code bases. Ask the committers of these projects if this is what they want. The last time I asked, Ant overwhelmingly wanted to remain in Jakarta. POI has so far made it very clear that they feel like they belong on the server side. I would imagine that BCEL would find this distinction between client and server as rather arbitrary. But if pressed, would probably find that they are used more often on the server than on the client. - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cultural homogeneity
On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 04:06, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: I'll continue to swim upstream. Take POI, Ant, BCEL, Oro, Regexp and make that the core of a new client-side project... wouldn't all those projects be out of scope of a client-side project as none of them are client-side? -- Cheers, Pete *--* | Common sense is the collection of prejudices| | acquired by age 18. -Albert Einstein | *--* -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cultural homogeneity
On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 04:57, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: So the problematic part of the conversation is that we are hung up on the literal semantics behind the words 'client' and 'server' and would be good to explore that. Or maybe we should just recognize that use of those terms is relatively arbitrary for many (most?) of the jakarta projects and throw it away completely? -- Cheers, Pete I just got lost in thought... It was unfamiliar territory. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cultural homogeneity
On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 04:06, Ceki Gülcü wrote: So, the word server-side might require some further clarification, but removing it completely is not just a cosmetic change. It means opening the flood-gates. The flood gates were opened long ago. Maintianing things like Ant Oro Avalon/Framework are serverside is pure fantasy. Given a project that satisfies the requirements jakarta has for newprojects - I can't recall anyone being knocked back. -- Cheers, Pete *-* | For those who refuse to understand, no explanation | | will ever suffice. For those who refuse to believe, | | no evidence will ever suffice. | *-* -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cultural homogeneity
On 1/6/02 12:48 PM, Peter Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 04:01, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: Maybe we could just start having sub-catgories within Jakarta. So basically Jakarta is still the top level project but we have a software map underneath it that categorizes project (ie tools, xml parserns, servers, whatever). How then would this work? What about the non-Java stuff in XML land? Where does that go? You mean there is non-java stuff in xml land? much like there is non-java stuff in jakarta-land? Why does it have to go anywhere? I noted earlier there in non-java stuff here. I bring this up because this thread is *specifically* (at this point) about modifying the charter to strike the word 'server' to open the scope to include non-server technology. Now, since you agreed this was a good thing with your +1 I assumed that you think that the specific of the charter means something. Therefore 'Java' is something we should consider, as we are then again automatically out of scope with out own charter. I personally don't care as much about legalistic conformance to the charter per se - its an important guideline, but the community is what really matters. You can't force volunteers anyway. Again, you might think the above is flip, but you are talking about modifying the charter here... The charter was modified ages ago. Sure the words haven't changed but it has been a long time since jakarta project was actually true to the words in its charter ... see Ant the server-side project And I keep bringing that up for consideration every few months. Even just at the level of organizing the site better to help people visiting us to see what we do. So instead of accepting that we violate scope with more than half the jakarta projects people took to inventing reasons to keep them at jakarta. ie Ant became acceptable because it was a tool that could be used to build serverside projects. How silly is that reason? I am not disagreeing. I have always been of the opinion that scope is a STUPID way to manage this sort of thing because it will inevitably lead to stifling of community or arbitrary violation. Rather than delluding ourselves wouldn't better to disregard scope and instead have a focus. We focus on java products. Traditionally they are serverside and would likely to remain so (because you need a PMC sponsor/champion for new projects and most PMC members are serverside peeps). However I would have no problem if someone wanted to have other similarly focused projects - even if they were clienside or written in c or whatever. And with the recent suggestion to get rid of the PMC and just do it via group consensus, then what? No more PMC champion. And without the PMC, I suspect no more Jakarta if Roy hasn't changed his mind. For instance if IBM wanted to donate jikes to Apache and there was enough community to support it - would you knock it back because it was C? or would you reclassify it as a compiler used to build serverside java apps? No, I think it would be great. However, it's not clear that we dump everything with a .java file into Jakarta though. That would be another great 'anchor project' to build a new project around. What happens if the Jext or JEdit editors (or the merge if it ever occurs) wanted to join in Jakarta and had a like-minded community - would you knock it back because it was clientside? or would you reclassify it as something used to write serverside apps? I would again try to get is to consider that we have a great chance to use a strong community to anchor a new project. Jakarta can't grow forever. When do you decide to actually step up and try to make a change? I hope it's *before* the outside perception of Jakarta changes from that of a place of high-quality projects with strong communities and colorful characters, to Apache Sourceforge for Java. -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Be a giant. Take giant steps. Do giant things... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment]POI@apache]
Answer inline -Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 3:53 AM ... I can not express this POV better than Linus did in posts reported by this article: http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398 Any corporation organizizes things and I do not see better user understanding there. My viewpoint is a bit different then Linus on some things. Keep in mind that Linus does not favor complete anarchy, as is obvious from the grip he has on Linux. Yes. Linus has different beliefs in release management. I'm a bit more disciplined in style. Don't get me wrong, Linus is like my idol and all, just I bet I'm far more likely to do a sequence diagram or write documentation. We have different viewpoints on a lot of different things. Yet I don't care to maintain as tight of control over POI. I'd exert my say if say someone wanted to do the equivalent of maybe embed X inside the kernel (like the whole thing) directly, but mostly I don't try to direct things quite as much in some areas. The point is that too many restrictions are bad. The problem is to find out what too many is. IMO, things can be improved but the main problem is not lack of rigid discipline. true, I wasn't meaning to say rigid discipline would. As an example of too many or too less restrictions, I believe that: - forcing every project to follow the same code conventions would be counterproductive; Completely and TOTALLY agree. - forcing each project to have explicit code conventions and follow them would be just fine. As long as those projects can have explicitly lax coding conventions in places where others would be more rigid. (POI - write good code. be self consistent and we all kinda agree that embedded ternary operators is the most evil sin of all) It is good to have diversity. There is the cross pollination effect and there is also the fact that what one group things is better is not so sure that it should be imposed. +1 Besides, there is no such thing as an Open Source external customer. Those that contribute to it (the authors and even noisy guys like me) ARE the customers. People PAY Open Source by participating. If something is wrong FIX IT! I don't completely agree with you on that. Some contributions to Open Source are less quantifiable than others. I see I'm a bit morecommunistic. I'm so far the the left on this that I'm on the right? I doubt you are that different. *Looks down at his cookie monster slippers* is not withing to POI's mission, that won't fly. (There will be NO GUI components in POI)... If they feel like working on a feature that I just don't think is in our critical path...go at it. So, you try to keep people happy but you are not so communistic that you make everybody happy (which would be crazy, I agree). Which reminds me of an Abe Lincoln quite. Anyhow I contributed ideas. Take them for what they were. They were NOT complaints. Apache is the most healthy opensource group there is. (its healthier then GNU IMHO) I also believe so, of course. You probably know what I am talking about since POI is Open Source. POI is opensource, there are some differences of opinion between you and I on who the contributers are. To me: User: doesn't submit patches, but uses the software. The more people who USE POI the better and healthier POI is. For example. A user the other day sent a bug. He had an toasted XLS file. It had confidential data in it so he couldn't contribute a sample. I talked him through running HSSF through a debugger and he found the problem. HSSF 1.0.1 can't handle cells with strings over 15,000 characters long if they don't occur early in the file. (there is a static string table and it is kinda blocked or paged). You are talking about users that contribute something to the projects: they test it, report problems and help making it more solid that way. I still do not see any difference in your opinion. Gotcha. It often does not seem that many agree with this viewpoint. In my posting I even including this paragraph: Besides, there is no such thing as an Open Source external customer. Those that contribute to it (the authors and even noisy guys like me) ARE the customers. Noisy guys like me means I only contributed a couple of patches but I still like to think that the some of the ideas I dumped on Jakarta lists are worth something (hey, some of them did result on something besides flames). +1 Gotcha. I missed your meaning before. One way or the other, I am involved. I am NO external customer. Even if many times just with ideas, I try to influence and contribute to the evolution of the products I use. yup. And when I see no possibility of changing the product in the way it suites my needs, I fork and still save a lot of work. Like I said. I see the fork as something to generally be avoided unless there is
Re: Cultural homogeneity
Peter Donald wrote: Again, you might think the above is flip, but you are talking about modifying the charter here... The charter was modified ages ago. Sure the words haven't changed but it has been a long time since jakarta project was actually true to the words in its charter ... see Ant the server-side project So instead of accepting that we violate scope with more than half the jakarta projects people took to inventing reasons to keep them at jakarta. ie Ant became acceptable because it was a tool that could be used to build serverside projects. How silly is that reason? Slightly revisionist. Ant was part of the original charter for Jakarta. There was a sister project named Java which contained a number of other projects Just to have a little fun (and this time, it is very intentional)... the project I consider most out of scope is dvsl. There is nothing server specific about it, and has everything in the world to do with XML. Check it out for yourself: http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/dvsl/index.html . I still maintain that scope is a distraction. Community is what is important. - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cultural homogeneity
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: I would again try to get is to consider that we have a great chance to use a strong community to anchor a new project. Jakarta can't grow forever. When do you decide to actually step up and try to make a change? I hope it's *before* the outside perception of Jakarta changes from that of a place of high-quality projects with strong communities and colorful characters, to Apache Sourceforge for Java. BINGO! I believe that Geir has just crafted the most appropriate wording for the new scope of Jakarta. Of course, I mean the before part of the last sentence, not the after. - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cultural homogeneity
On 1/6/02 1:26 PM, Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter Donald wrote: Again, you might think the above is flip, but you are talking about modifying the charter here... The charter was modified ages ago. Sure the words haven't changed but it has been a long time since jakarta project was actually true to the words in its charter ... see Ant the server-side project So instead of accepting that we violate scope with more than half the jakarta projects people took to inventing reasons to keep them at jakarta. ie Ant became acceptable because it was a tool that could be used to build serverside projects. How silly is that reason? Slightly revisionist. Ant was part of the original charter for Jakarta. There was a sister project named Java which contained a number of other projects Just to have a little fun (and this time, it is very intentional)... the project I consider most out of scope is dvsl. There is nothing server specific about it, and has everything in the world to do with XML. Check it out for yourself: http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/dvsl/index.html . I do too, and I wrote it. I was going to put DVSL at sourceforge, but was strongly encouraged by people I talked to to make it a part of the Velocity community. Note that it isn't considered 'core' to velocity. I even bought the dvsl.org domain name, so you know that I am being honest here. To that end, gump is just susceptible to the same observation. Until recently, it wasn't even written in java, was it? Wasn't it shell scripts and xsl? Maybe we should use it as an anchor project for an Apache shell script and xsl community :) And I thought that my belief that sam picks on me was my delusion... I still maintain that scope is a distraction. Community is what is important. I think I wrote that a message or to ago as well. More crossing the ether I suppose. - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freeness of speech. - Benjamin Franklin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: proposal for the jakarta startpage
In futherance of the work begun the other day, I broke the subproject list into three general categories, to increase readability. Libraries, Tools, and APIs Frameworks and Engines Server Applications I based the initial categories and placements on how the subprojects described themselves. This is the other thing people visiting the site are forever asking the webmaster to do. -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA. -- Building Java web applications with Struts. -- Tel +1 585 737-3463. -- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: proposal for the jakarta startpage
Lazy consensus. If anyone doesn't like it, they can change it :) Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: Cool. I am assuming that you will ask each project where they belong? :) -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA. -- Building Java web applications with Struts. -- Tel +1 585 737-3463. -- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cultural homogeneity
Or maybe we should just recognize that use of those terms is relatively arbitrary for many (most?) of the jakarta projects and throw it away completely? That is exactly what I think. Paulo -Original Message- From: Peter Donald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 6:57 PM On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 04:57, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: So the problematic part of the conversation is that we are hung up on the literal semantics behind the words 'client' and 'server' and would be good to explore that. Or maybe we should just recognize that use of those terms is relatively arbitrary for many (most?) of the jakarta projects and throw it away completely? -- Cheers, Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: proposal for the jakarta startpage
On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 06:10, Sam Ruby wrote: Shouldn't... Velocity and Jasper be in the same category? Watchdog and Tomcat be in the same category? Jmeter and Cactus be in the same category? Lucene and Oro be in the same category? Shouldn't JMeter and Watchdog be in the same category? Shouldn't Avalon and Log4j be in the same category? Shouldn't Avalon and Commons be in the same category? Shouldn't Avalon and Tomcat be in the same category? Shouldn't Turbine and Commons be in the same category? Shouldn't Cactus and JMeter be in the same category? Shouldn't Cactus and Watchdog be in the same category? ;) -- Cheers, Pete The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit. -- Maugham -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cultural homogeneity
I was just using it as a platform for the topic I really want to discuss. Go for the topic. =:o) I think that we are already discussing that topic but POI is now becoming more of a distraction than an example. Name the topic and I will try not to get distracted. =;o) Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 7:14 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Cultural homogeneity On 1/6/02 1:08 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would again try to get is to consider that we have a great chance to use a strong community to anchor a new project. Jakarta can't grow forever. When do you decide to actually step up and try to make a change? I hope it's *before* the outside perception of Jakarta changes from that of a place of high-quality projects with strong communities and colorful characters, to Apache Sourceforge for Java. And I want to add something for the record, as I am frustrated and will try (try!) to shut up : This has nothing to do with the relative merits of POI. I am sure, given the clarity of thought and debate from Andrew, as well as the support from Stefano, that it will be a swell addition to the Jakarta fold. I was just using it as a platform for the topic I really want to discuss. -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freeness of speech. - Benjamin Franklin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brief History of Jakarta and the ASF
Any takers? Hard to tell where we're going when we don't know where we've been. Here's all I got: http://java.apache.org/main/constitution.html Pier to Jon - Thu, 21 Dec 2000 We've traveled a long way together, from my very first steps in open-source land in January 1998, to our marvelous meeting at the first ApacheCON in October 1998, the Jakarta room meeting, all JavaONEs, and all we did together to bring this project where it is right now. Pier again, same day And we, as the newly formed Apache Software Foundation, accepted that code in donation as a point of start for the Jakarta Project. I was there, in that meeting room, that day when we outlined how the process would have evolved, with Jon, Stefano and Brian. And I was there, on stage at JavaONE, when Patricia Sueltz announced the spinoff of the project againg with Jon, Stefano and Brian. If that has been a wrong decision, we four are the people to blame... Sam, last Thursday Let me relate a little tale about how this whole project got started. Once upon a time there was a project named Tomcat. Pretty much off of the committers were from a three letter company on the left coast. They knew each other pretty well, and talked often. The way they made decisions were to schedule a conference room, invite all of the relevant parties and have a meeting. The 3.0 release plan was done this way. Since the project was technically open source they presented their results as a fait accompli to the mailing list. A few months later, they realized that each of them had vacation plans and so they decided to cut the release 3.0. Suffice it to say, this was not received well. There was a length thread started by Jason Hunter with the subject line of I've been sideswiped, or some such. Shortly thereafer, I became the Tomcat 3.1 release lead, put a stop to this nonsense, and a few months later was a PMC member, Apache member, and now PMC chair. Lessons to be learned by all of this: 1) binding decisions should not be made offline. Votes should be made in public. 2) colluding offline and then voting as a block will invite in a backlash http://jakarta.apache.org/site/pmc/ -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA. -- Building Java web applications with Struts. -- Tel +1 585 737-3463. -- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: proposal for the jakarta startpage
Sam Ruby wrote: My two cents: these categories are not perfect, but are useful. Not unlike the Apache Projects =:) -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA. -- Building Java web applications with Struts. -- Tel +1 585 737-3463. -- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cultural homogeneity
On 1/6/02 1:59 PM, Peter Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With the the high threshold of entry I doubt jakarta will ever be in the same category as sourceforge - I can't see that as anything but a strawman that is brought up every now and again ;) Here is the threshold of entry as stated by Sam today : On 1/6/02 11:50 AM, Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Similarly, if POI or any other code base actively wanted to join Jakarta and we felt it was compatible with the community, then I would fight to make whatever adjustments to the charter that were required to make this happen. First, I don't necessarily disagree. The point of discussion in Sams statement is the phrase we felt it was compatible with the community. As the community grows, I think the notion of 'compatible' gains a larger surface area, which means that by waiting around long enough, any project is acceptable as the surface area will eventually grow such that your location in 'parameter space' is near enough. It's stepwise in a way : the best argument about POI so far is that Lucene can use it, so now we extend from Lucene to POI. (Again, welcome POI :) That assumes that the community can be sustained to an arbitrarily large size. I wonder if it can (I don't know), I wonder if the risk is worth the possible upside, and I wonder if now isn't an appropriate time to consider this issue :) -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Now what do we do? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: proposal for the jakarta startpage
On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 06:49, Sam Ruby wrote: Peter Donald wrote: On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 06:10, Sam Ruby wrote: Shouldn't... Velocity and Jasper be in the same category? Watchdog and Tomcat be in the same category? Jmeter and Cactus be in the same category? Lucene and Oro be in the same category? Shouldn't JMeter and Watchdog be in the same category? JMeter is general purpose. Watchdog effectively is Tomcat specific. Watchdog is TC specific - didn't know that ? Is it servlet/jsp specific or tomcat specific? Could it be reimplemented over the top of Cactus or is it tied to a specific infrastructure? Shouldn't Avalon and Log4j be in the same category? Shouldn't Avalon and Commons be in the same category? Shouldn't Avalon and Tomcat be in the same category? Obviously, Avalon is everything. ;-) But first and foremost, people tend to think of it as a framework. And that happens to be the smallest part of the Avalon project ;) Shouldn't Turbine and Commons be in the same category? Ditto. I would love to see torque be given more presence then, *cough* top-level-project *cough* :) Shouldn't Cactus and JMeter be in the same category? You got me there. ;-) Hint: intentional cheshire cat lurking in that statement. Shouldn't Cactus and Watchdog be in the same category? Same response as the first. = = = My two cents: these categories are not perfect, but are useful. yep. It may be useful to break down the turbine and avalon projects into their constituent parts though, then again not all of those parts are out of alpha ;) -- Cheers, Pete --- I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it. --- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: proposal for the jakarta startpage
On 1/6/02 2:21 PM, Peter Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 06:10, Sam Ruby wrote: Shouldn't... Velocity and Jasper be in the same category? Watchdog and Tomcat be in the same category? Jmeter and Cactus be in the same category? Lucene and Oro be in the same category? Shouldn't JMeter and Watchdog be in the same category? Shouldn't Avalon and Log4j be in the same category? Shouldn't Avalon and Commons be in the same category? Shouldn't Avalon and Tomcat be in the same category? Shouldn't Turbine and Commons be in the same category? Shouldn't Cactus and JMeter be in the same category? Shouldn't Cactus and Watchdog be in the same category? Shouldn't tomcat and httpd be in the same category? Shouldn't Cocoon and PHP be in the same category? Shouldn't APR and Commons and Avalon be in the same category? Shouldn't TCL and Perl be in the same category? -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Be a giant. Take giant steps. Do giant things... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: proposal for the jakarta startpage
On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 07:27, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: Shouldn't tomcat and httpd be in the same category? different technologies (ie c vs java). Shouldn't Cocoon and PHP be in the same category? different technologies (ie c vs java) Shouldn't APR and Commons and Avalon be in the same category? Commons + Avalon = yes APR is different technology Shouldn't TCL and Perl be in the same category? No idea what they actually consist of but I suspect the communities are not compatible ;) Apache is generally broken by technology boundaries. While sometimes there is overlap (ie xerces-c xerces-j) but it is mostly the case that committers stick to one technology - except for some oddballs like Sam ;) - and thus thats where the community is. Occasionally you will some people bridge between different technology (ie PHP in cocoon, connectors in TC, ...) but that is the exception rather than the norm. -- Cheers, Pete --- Remember, your body is a temple; however, it's also your dancehall and bowling alley -- Dharma Montgomery --- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: proposal for the jakarta startpage
On 1/6/02 3:54 PM, Peter Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 07:27, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: Shouldn't tomcat and httpd be in the same category? different technologies (ie c vs java). So what? You didn't think that mattered before. Shouldn't Cocoon and PHP be in the same category? different technologies (ie c vs java) So what? You didn't think that mattered before. Shouldn't APR and Commons and Avalon be in the same category? Commons + Avalon = yes APR is different technology So what? You didn't think that mattered before. Shouldn't TCL and Perl be in the same category? No idea what they actually consist of but I suspect the communities are not compatible ;) Apache is generally broken by technology boundaries. While sometimes there is overlap (ie xerces-c xerces-j) but it is mostly the case that committers stick to one technology - except for some oddballs like Sam ;) - and thus thats where the community is. Occasionally you will some people bridge between different technology (ie PHP in cocoon, connectors in TC, ...) but that is the exception rather than the norm. -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting He who throws mud only loses ground. - Fat Albert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Commons Validator Packaging/Content
on 1/6/02 1:45 PM, Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jon, I presume that you are talking about the subject, and not the text you are quoting. In any case, a framework independent validator seems to me to be valuable a reusable component. If one or both can't be restructed to be framework independent, then that would seem to be a reasonable explanation for the duplication. If both can, then merging of the best of both here in commons would seem to be the wisest path. I don't see why the basis isn't Intake. Why not work to move Intake to commons and then work towards a framework independent implementation in Commons? Of course it is easier to start from scratch to invent yet another validation framework. This is where I see another failure of Jakarta. People only go with the easiest route without any concern about the long term mess they are making. I feel like Jakarta is just going down this path of having a bazillion different implementations and versions of the same thing and it is only getting worse. Commons was supposed to help clean that up by providing a central location, however all I see is it making it worse because people are just re-inventing what already exists in other projects instead of using existing projects as the basis. A perfect example of this recently was the discussion about Torque. Hey, Torque exists, but it is *easier* to re-invent it rather than simply spend the time to figure it out, understand it and move it to commons (or a top level project). I'm starting to realize that Jakarta has grown to becoming a place where people only scratch their own itches and I agree that that is the basis for open source. However, we have no overall direction. We all have our own opinions and spend days and days discussing them and when it comes down to putting code into CVS, people do whatever they want anyway because there is no set of checks and balances to put some sort of higher level control over things. In Java Apache, these issues never came up because there were only a few projects and a few people expressing their opinions. Now, Jakarta has grown into literally hundreds of people expressing their opinions and doing what they want. Commons has become an area where people have a free CVS commit tree to put whatever they want into it, which is fine, however these people doing the commits haven't spent the time to do things as simple as figuring out what the proper way to format code according to the Jakarta rules. People keep saying that Jakarta isn't broken. Well, if it isn't broken, then how come we have so many people doing their own thing and not working together? Jakarta is supposed to be a group collective, however it is becoming nothing more than another Sourceforge. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: new home page
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jon Scott Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: on 1/6/02 11:33 AM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know you're supposed to be silent when you agree with stuff Who said that? Yes... not with Apache Voting Rules... Kevin - -- Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965 Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED], Web - http://relativity.yi.org/ ... Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law... -- Universal Declaration of Human Rights, United Nations, 1948 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Get my public key at: http://relativity.yi.org/pgpkey.txt iD8DBQE8ONGCAwM6xb2dfE0RArrcAJsE1kASK4Tl5eeEyiWo6eSopFDVfgCfZqEi BZ1PRFK6sAi0BB6k2KXmwOI= =jeA8 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: new home page
on 1/6/02 11:33 AM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know you're supposed to be silent when you agree with stuff Who said that? -jon I meant rather than a bunch of me-too ing. I thought I read that somewhere once. Or maybe its because I have low oxygen to the brain right now, been in my crawl space fetching the salt, inhaling mildew and chipping ice off my driveway. -Andy -- YANKEES PLEASE READ THIS: Please come get your white stuff off of the ground and take it back up North where it belongs. We have no need for it here in the South. Signed, -North Carolina -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Commons Validator Packaging/Content
Jon Scott Stevens wrote: Jon, I presume that you are talking about the subject, and not the text you are quoting. In any case, a framework independent validator seems to me to be valuable a reusable component. If one or both can't be restructed to be framework independent, then that would seem to be a reasonable explanation for the duplication. If both can, then merging of the best of both here in commons would seem to be the wisest path. I don't see why the basis isn't Intake. Why not work to move Intake to commons and then work towards a framework independent implementation in Commons? Do it in the other way around (make it framework independent, then move it into commons) and I think you may have a winner. Meanwhile, it is probably fair to assume that OTHERS will assume burying gems deep into the fabric of your component is done for a reason. In particular, the assumption will likely be that the code is so intricately interwoven into the fabric of your component that it would be difficult to break out. I know that there are examples of pre-gump days when attempts were made to break things out that weren't successful; but then again, that was before there was a tool that helped people monitor the stability of the interfaces. Of course it is easier to start from scratch to invent yet another validation framework. This is where I see another failure of Jakarta. People only go with the easiest route without any concern about the long term mess they are making. It is also easier to add a code directly to a subproject then to invest the extra effort in making the code a standalone, reusable component. snip People keep saying that Jakarta isn't broken. Well, if it isn't broken, then how come we have so many people doing their own thing and not working together? Jakarta is supposed to be a group collective, however it is becoming nothing more than another Sourceforge. Oh, there are definately a few things that need fixing around here. Spend a few minutes looking at http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/gump/latest/xref.html . Tell me what patterns you see. I see definate cleaving lines, and they are not along any of the functional or scoping boundaries that we have been discussing lately. The good news is that these lines are getting harder to see every day. My current favorite example of a recent closing of one of the fissures: jakarta-velocity-tools/struts. Another favorite of mine is jakarta-commons/collections, followed by jakarta-commons/beanutils. - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OT] Snow
Andrew C. Oliver typed the following on 06:10 PM 1/6/2002 -0500 YANKEES PLEASE READ THIS: Please come get your white stuff off of the ground and take it back up North where it belongs. We have no need for it here in the South. Yeah? Try it here in Istanbul! I crowed to all my friends back in London about how I was leaving crappy weather behind me when I moved here, and now it's been snowing for 3 days, expected to continue until next weekend. Sheesh! (Actually, I love snow. So the weather's still better here, it never snowed worth a damn back there!) Kief -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT] Snow
Kief Morris typed the following: Andrew C. Oliver typed the following on 06:10 PM 1/6/2002 -0500 YANKEES PLEASE READ THIS: Please come get your white stuff off of the ground and take it back up North where it belongs. We have no need for it here in the South. Yeah? Try it here in Istanbul! I crowed to all my friends back in London about how I was leaving crappy weather behind me when I moved here, and now it's been snowing for 3 days, expected to continue until next weekend. Sheesh! (Actually, I love snow. So the weather's still better here, it never snowed worth a damn back there!) If the North Carolina economy (its worse here than elsewhere in the US because Nortel, Cisco, Ericsson, IBM, MCI, etc are all major employers who just canned lots of Java geeks) doesn't get much better I might just move to Istanbul. (j/k) It only snowed for 2 days here, but you must understand. If you live somewhere where it doesn't usually snow, you're screwed when it does (I have no idea what the weather is like in Istanbul, I was rather surprised to learn it snows there...). They have maybe 2 snow plows in the whole state (okay a little exaggeration, its gotten better since we had that 20 snow come down over night a few years ago) and they don't treat the roads. To illustrate this, I drove my car up from Virginia to Pennsylvania with no problem in a snow storm. You're thinking so whatI drive a Miata (aka Mazda MX-5: 2 seater about the size of a Opal, convertible sporty little thing but no traction 300 lb wait limit). Here it will be a week before I dare drive again (good thing I have no where to go ;-p). They salt, cinder and plow the roads up there. Here...we're stuck. Everything shuts down. Lastly, guess where I grew up: Florida. It snowed once the entire time I lived there and it melted 5 minutes after it hit the ground! (Hurricanes don't really bother me). So... I want the yankees to take their snow home with them. :-D Thanks BTW for the vote of confidence. I'll tell you who is sticking a big -1 in POI right now SOURCEFORGE. They always go down at the WORST possible time. Thanks to them, I did catch up on my email mostly. -Andy Kief -- YANKEES PLEASE READ THIS: Please come get your white stuff off of the ground and take it back up North where it belongs. We have no need for it here in the South. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment]POI Â @apache]
-Original Message- From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 6:55 PM On 1/6/02 12:58 PM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... If you start at the top of the thread, I declare I am playing devils' advocate, and addressing the three URLs that andrew gave. The Devil's advocate gets flamed as any other one or more, didn't you know? =;o) hehe I don't think it should be used for anything - that's up to the users and I would never try to make an assertion to that end. YYYs!!! When I said should I was expressing a personal opinion. Like when I say people should NOT use Windows. That would be my personal opinion. Being wrong is a human right of sorts ,so everyone is free to disagree with me. :-D To give you the benefit of the doubt that I wasn't clear, change would be to currently is as that is what I meant. The dissonance that struck me was between the thing that makes POI different - the ability to write xls files - and what I read to be the most common use - reading xls for serverside presentation and indexing. I'm just trying to figure this out. I also got surprised by that one but is was exactly what made me realize how much server side (here we go again) it was. Actuate will charge you $10K to write XLS files in Java on your server. (supply and demand... If POI becomes a Jakarta project there may be a little downward pressure on that price -- perhaps it will happen anyhow.). It looks like our POVs on this are being heavily influenced by our current work experience and needs... which are different. I think you hit it on the nail. Not to speak for anyone but these are my impressions: Talk to Stefano and he talks about content editing and publishing. Talk to me about POI::HSSF and you hear principally about reporting systems and POI::HDF for publishing. Talk to Marc and you hear more about Cocoon 2 and document management systems and what he calls a translator. He clarifies with with the exception of document viewers I see mostly server side use. (I'll let him clarify if he likes he doesn't subscribe to the list though) We have some users who are using HSSF to dump their database and transmit (from what I gather) -- I said they areI didn't say they should :-p. I see this disagreement as an awesome and wonderful thing. It means POI provides general use APIs that are atomic enough that people can think of lots of things to do with them that their author never thought of. That's just good software. My personal use of POI in future contracts or jobs (if it ever happens...sigh) is probably through Lucene and Cocoon 2. I think its incorrect to say that document publishing in those formats or reporting in those formats is niche. These are the most popular formats in the world for rich Documents and Spreadsheets, etc. ... The fact that Velocity can generate HTML doesn't make it special. Yes, it is the HOW that is quite especial! =:o) ... Are there many uses for writing Word/Excel documents in a client-side device that has not Word or Excel installed??? You might find this unbelieveable, but not everyone works on a computer that runs an operating system that has Word or Excel available. And is there many people NOT having Word or Excel installed that care about writing Word and Excel documents in a CLIENT device??? YES. Anyone who uses Linux is an example. (sorry, I've found open-office and gnumeric don't really cut it...) This is a little off topic but you brought up gnumeric and open office. JUST FYI, The POI::HSSFSerializer (for Cocoon 2) uses gnumeric's tag language. Its really a very cool thing. You can: 1. Take a gnumeric XML spreadsheet (unzip it) ...OR.. 2. use the SQL stuff, a stylesheet to make it gnumeric like and serialize it to XLS! The upcoming HSSFGenerator (for Cocoon 2) will take XLS and turn it into a gnumeric XML spreadsheet. We didn't use OpenOffice format because it uses multiple xml files to represent a spreadsheet. I'm not smart enough to figure that one out so I'll let smarter people write stylesheets for that :-p. But POI is no replacement for that. POI has no GUIs and will not have GUIs as long as I have any say in the matter. GUIs COULD use POI. I just don't know if I think a Java Office Suite is the best idea I ever heard of. You just add to the argument that there is not much use for writing a Word/Excel document in a client device without Word/Excel... in the way that POI does. The use for POI is to write the doc in a server to send the document to a client that has Word/Excel or some future version of OpenOffice. =;o) You can of course read it and put the data into the database or make some XML or make some PDF or whatever you like. The POI libraries don't mind. BTW I've not said anything because I'm not pedantic but just for clarity: POI = project POIFS = API/port of M$ OLE2 CDF
RE: Commons Validator Packaging/Content
You need a search engine for these little things maybe off the main page. With something catchy under it like High your software has already been written for you...find it here. This would ecourage useful javadoc comments as well. So if I type tree I should see all the tree classes in the collections stuff under commons for instance. Its useless to say reuse when reuse implies finding it which implies knowing where to look for it. You're expecting people to go through each and every project and say 'humm is there a TreeMap that does key-value and value-key here ...nope let me search through the rest of all the projects'... I here there is a java indexing package on sourceforge that could be used for this :-D (j/k) -Andy Hi Jon, I think there is reason for the concern you are raising. I see a lot of other work repeated in other sub-projects too. Commons seems to be the only place where such smaller simple use components are visible. Most people just search there before and most think that Turbine and Avalon are big blocks of indivisible code. Maybe the way to go is just to move such components to the Commons. Why not moving Intake now? Maybe this issue needs regulation, but this kind of think tends to work better if you use the carrot before applying the whip. =;o) Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI Â @apache]
On 1/6/02 9:10 PM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 6:55 PM On 1/6/02 12:58 PM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... If you start at the top of the thread, I declare I am playing devils' advocate, and addressing the three URLs that andrew gave. The Devil's advocate gets flamed as any other one or more, didn't you know? =;o) hehe I don't think it should be used for anything - that's up to the users and I would never try to make an assertion to that end. YYYs!!! When I said should I was expressing a personal opinion. Like when I say people should NOT use Windows. That would be my personal opinion. Being wrong is a human right of sorts ,so everyone is free to disagree with me. :-D You never said 'should' and this is a bit out of context, isn't it? I don't understand what you are doing with this. You left out the actual statement from Paulo where he was asking if I thought something should be... He said : Of course, but are you sure it is so clear that POI should mostly be used for presentation and indexing? I never said should. What I said was : Isn't it fair to guess that the majority of your server side use would be reading documents for presentation, indexing, searching? I think we should keep this clear. -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting He who throws mud only loses ground. - Fat Albert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POIÂ @apache]
On 1/6/02 9:51 PM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My apologies. I'll shut up now until my brain un-freezes. :-D -Andy Sheesh. Give southerners a dusting of snow and all goes pear shaped... :) -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Now what do we do? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
OT: northern drivers and their snow...was: Re: On unity andcoherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POIÂ @apache]
On 1/6/02 9:51 PM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My apologies. I'll shut up now until my brain un-freezes. :-D -Andy Sheesh. Give southerners a dusting of snow and all goes pear shaped... :) Thats right... keep that white junk up there. We're not interested in it. To be fair, it must be very frustrating up north. I mean when those Northerners switch lanes for no reason repeatedly and then cut you off and slam on the brakes just 'cuz they skid forward some and can't cut you off as sharply... I can see where that would be frustrating to said northern driver. =-o -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Now what do we do? I told you: come get your snow! Andy -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jboss Start up
Sorry, wrong group. Try jboss.org birendra kumar padhi wrote: When i start the JBoss server i am getting this error message. Please help me. Birendra Padhi [Info] Java version: 1.3.1_01,Sun Microsystems Inc. [Info] Java VM: Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM 1.3.1_01,Sun Microsystems Inc. [Info] System: Windows Me 4.90,x86 [Shutdown] Shutdown hook added java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: org/xml/sax/SAXException at java.lang.Class.getConstructors0(Native Method) at java.lang.Class.getConstructors(Unknown Source) at com.sun.management.jmx.Introspector.testCompliance(Introspector.java: 95) at com.sun.management.jmx.MetaData.testCompliance(MetaData.java:132) at com.sun.management.jmx.MBeanServerImpl.createMBean(MBeanServerImpl.ja va:507) at javax.management.loading.MLet.getMBeansFromURL(MLet.java:523) at javax.management.loading.MLet.getMBeansFromURL(MLet.java:369) at org.jboss.Main.init(Main.java:193) at org.jboss.Main$1.run(Main.java:127) at java.security.AccessController.doPrivileged(Native Method) at org.jboss.Main.main(Main.java:123) [Default] javax.management.InstanceNotFoundException: DefaultDomain:service=Conf iguration [Default] at com.sun.management.jmx.MBeanServerImpl.getMBean(MBeanServerIm pl.java:1678) [Default] [Default] at com.sun.management.jmx.MBeanServerImpl.invoke(MBeanServerImpl .java:1522) [Default] [Default] at org.jboss.Main.init(Main.java:213) [Default] [Default] at org.jboss.Main$1.run(Main.java:127) [Default] [Default] at java.security.AccessController.doPrivileged(Native Method) [Default] [Default] at org.jboss.Main.main(Main.java:123) [Default] [Default] JBoss 2.4.3 Started in 0m:2s [Default] Shutting down [Service Control] Stopping 0 MBeans [Service Control] Stopped 0 services [Service Control] Destroying 0 MBeans [Service Control] Destroyed 0 services [Default] Shutdown complete __ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA. -- Building Java web applications with Struts. -- Tel +1 585 737-3463. -- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: northern drivers and their snow...was: Re: On unityandcoherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POIÂ @apache]
Yeah RIGHT. Northern cars don't even HAVE blinkers! When up north I drive real slow in the just left of the right lane (avoid northern style kamikaze merges) with my hazard lights on going about 70 (which must be below the minimum speed limit). BTW the north to me starts just a little above Richmond. I grew up in Florida precipitation is called normal. Its the cold white stuff that I don't like. (that might also be a result of driving a Miata) -Andy -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: northern drivers and their snow...was: Re: On unityandcoherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POIÂ @apache]
On 1/6/02 11:14 PM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah RIGHT. Northern cars don't even HAVE blinkers! Of course not - then you would know when we are about to cut you off... When up north I drive real slow in the just left of the right lane (avoid northern style kamikaze merges) with my hazard lights on going about 70 (which must be below the minimum speed limit). So that was you? I think just left of the right lane is a strange way to describe straddling the center. LOL. Yes, doing 70 anywhere but the right lane is a traffic hazard. BTW the north to me starts just a little above Richmond. I grew up in Florida precipitation is called normal. Its the cold white stuff that I don't like. (that might also be a result of driving a Miata) That actually sounds like a fun car for the snow... -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freeness of speech. - Benjamin Franklin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: proposal for the jakarta startpage
On 1/6/02 5:26 PM, Peter Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 08:05, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On 1/6/02 3:54 PM, Peter Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 07:27, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: Shouldn't tomcat and httpd be in the same category? different technologies (ie c vs java). So what? You didn't think that mattered before. what are you talking about ? When have I said merging incompatible communities never mattered ? Good try. You said that the technologies don't matter (you even say it above :) -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
