Re: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Wed, 2002-03-06 at 21:07, Jeff Turner wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 07:47:49PM -0500, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > My opinion is you've come across just about as objective as Richard
> > Stallman would be in the Microsoft Beta testing program.  
> 
> :-> Pretending to be objective is not my strong point.
> 
> > No offense but this is EXACTLY the opposite of what is needed.  Way too
> > inflamatory, partisan and counter-productive to the target of just
> > "explaining to the confused" as to what the differences are.  
> 
> My aim was not to give an exhaustive comparison. The O'Reilly and Perens
> pages do it much better than I could. I wanted to give an
> Apache-flavoured introduction to the debate, by introducing the main
> issue (GPL virality) and showing how that conflicted with Apache's
> community-orientedness. And then link to the real thing.
> 

The question is: "How do you want to spend your time?"  

Possible answers:

1> Fighting an "unwinnable" (defined as the argument having a logical
conclusion where one side overwhelmingly wins) religious war with the
GNU hordes (hirds? hurds? ;-) ). . . 

2> Coding and documenting

I'd pick #2.  Not scared of the Gnu, but *shrugs* no since in inciting a
riot for no reason.  Such doesn't do anything for Apache, but does do
mounds for the GNU stuff...  

If you're just bored there are plenty of things for you to do for POI
;-)

Anyhow, I DO applaud and appreciate you efforts...  


-Andy

> > I kinda think the link off of the Apache Manual was fine...
> 
> +1
> 
> --Jeff
> 
> > -Andy
> > 
> > On Wed, 2002-03-06 at 16:46, Jeff Turner wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > As promised, I've written up an "ASL vs. GPL" page, for possible
> > > inclusion on jakarta-site2.
> ...
> 
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Re: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Jeff Turner]

On Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 07:47:49PM -0500, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> My opinion is you've come across just about as objective as Richard
> Stallman would be in the Microsoft Beta testing program.  

:-> Pretending to be objective is not my strong point.

> No offense but this is EXACTLY the opposite of what is needed.  Way too
> inflamatory, partisan and counter-productive to the target of just
> "explaining to the confused" as to what the differences are.  

My aim was not to give an exhaustive comparison. The O'Reilly and Perens
pages do it much better than I could. I wanted to give an
Apache-flavoured introduction to the debate, by introducing the main
issue (GPL virality) and showing how that conflicted with Apache's
community-orientedness. And then link to the real thing.

> I kinda think the link off of the Apache Manual was fine...

+1

--Jeff

> -Andy
> 
> On Wed, 2002-03-06 at 16:46, Jeff Turner wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > As promised, I've written up an "ASL vs. GPL" page, for possible
> > inclusion on jakarta-site2.
...

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Re: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 3/6/02 5:29 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> +1 -- I just think that needs to be prominantly linked...  I'm pretty
> satisfied with it.

Linked and the filename changed. LicenSe.

-jon


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Re: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Wed, 2002-03-06 at 20:28, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> on 3/6/02 4:52 PM, "Marc Saegesser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I would love to see a document describes the Apache Software License, the
> > philosophy behind it and why we think the ASL is a good thing.
> 
> Probably suggesting more content for this page would be a good idea:
> 
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/licence-FAQ.html
> 
> -jon
> 

+1 -- I just think that needs to be prominantly linked...  I'm pretty
satisfied with it.

> 
> --
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Re: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 3/6/02 4:52 PM, "Marc Saegesser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I would love to see a document describes the Apache Software License, the
> philosophy behind it and why we think the ASL is a good thing.

Probably suggesting more content for this page would be a good idea:

http://www.apache.org/foundation/licence-FAQ.html

-jon


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RE: POI nightly builds and upcoming release howto

[Andrew C. Oliver]

In the mean time.. . can Marc (our build maestro) get karma to copy our
releases to the relevant server via ftp or whatever?

If not then does anyone object to us checking the whole file into a
subdirectory of our website in CVS so that it can be copied over?  We'll
follow this obviously less than perfect process until such time as the
technology to copy our files onto the server for download is developed. 
Thanks,

Andy

On Fri, 2002-03-01 at 18:48, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Scott Sanders wrote:
> >
> > I am happy to help with that, and I have even set my umask ;-)
> 
> I'm intrigued.  Do you have a logon to my machine that I don't know about?
> 
> ;-)
> 
> Actually, what I would like to do is to migrate from my hand crafted cron
> scripts to something that is generated from the project descriptors.  I'm
> also contemplating moving the hosting of these to either nagoya.apache.org
> or gump.covalent.net.
> 
> - Sam Ruby
> 
> 
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RE: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Wed, 2002-03-06 at 19:52, Marc Saegesser wrote:
> I would love to see a document describes the Apache Software License, the
> philosophy behind it and why we think the ASL is a good thing.  What I don't
> want is another tirade about why GPL sucks.  There's enough of that out
> there already and getting into pissing match over licensing just doesn't
> seem productive.  It would be good to have a basic "Here's what we stand
> for..." document with some pointers to other licenses and articles
> discussing licensing issues.  Anything beyond that, I believe, belongs less
> in the realm of the Apache web site and more in the realm of a magazine
> article or blog discussion, etc.
> 

+1 - Total agreement.

> Let people come look at our licensing document and how simple and open it
> is, then let them go see the GPL document and read about all the things they
> won't be able to use, all the things they won't be able to do and all the
> things the FSF doesn't like.  I think we win.
> 

But explain the basics and the basic difference.  "you have to do this,
you can do this, you cant do this" between say the top 3. 

I'll have to look again but I think the doc linked from the manual does
this.

> Marc Saegesser 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Ceki Gülcü [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 4:43 PM
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Subject: RE: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > At 16:17 06.03.2002 -0600, you wrote:
> > >-1
> > >
> > >I'm not sure we need this at all.
> > 
> > I disagree. I think we definitely need a solid document 
> > countering the 
> > idyllic but false world depicted
> > by the FSF. It's just a gargantuan task to come up with a 
> > such a document. 
> > Regards, Ceki
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > 
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> > 
> > 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
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format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
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Re: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Jeff Turner]

On Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 11:38:42PM +0100, Ceki Gülcü wrote:
> 
> Jeff,
> 
> Kudos for having the courage to proceed with this. Comments inline.

:) It's not easy or fun.

> At 08:46 07.03.2002 +1100, Jeff Turner wrote:
...
> >Why prefer the ASL to a copyleft license (eg GPL)?
> >--
> >
> >This is an slightly distasteful topic for most Apache developers. The license
> >is simply not a central part of the Apache philosophy. Apache is
> >about creating communities that create great software. The ASL is a
> >minimum legal necessity that allows us to do this, nothing more. It
> >promotes no political axe-grinding, and has no great philosophy that
> >needs defending. The ASL, in fact, presents such a small
> >conversational target that any licensing debate inevitably becomes
> >"what is wrong with license X". That inevitably leads to
> >misunderstandings, holy wars and bad feeling, It's not productive,
> >and not fun, and why we find licensing debates distasteful.
> 
> The license is very much part of the Apache philosophy. It may even embody the
> essence of the philosophy.

The license says, basically, "do what you wan't, but don't sue us, don't
abuse our name, and give credit where credit is due". That isn't much of
a philosophy ;) It hints at the underlying importance we attach to the
Apache name, but that's all.

> No need to be apologetic about discussing licensing.

Not apologetic, just reflecting a general lack of keenness for licensing
debates, because they usually end up in unproductive GNU-bashing.

> A good license is more valuable than a million lines of code.  I maybe
> exaggerating but only a little.
> 
> >In particular, it's not fun rubbishing the GPL. The reader is
> >encouraged to read the GNU's philosophy pages
> >(http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/). It is wonderful, high-minded stuff
> >that most programmers instantly resonate with.  Opposing RMS's vision
> >of Free Software at first seems to be like kicking a puppy.
> >
> >But let's kick it anyway. It turns out that the puppy soon grows up
> >to be a bulldog, biting and tenaciously hanging on to any code it
> >can. Due to the GPL's extensive scope and 'viral' linking rules,
> >GPL'ed code cannot be incorporated into proprietary software. It must
> >all be copylefted, or none of it can be.
> 
> A bulldog? :-)

Something with teeth :) But yes, bad analogy; will be removed.

> >In many cases, we at Apache find the GPL's virality a hindrance in *our* goal:
> 
> to (not in) *our* goal?

agreed

> >creating communities that create code. This is because large parts of our
> 
> that write code?

okay

> >"community" are selling custom solutions, not shrink-wrapped products
> >sold in volume for general consumption. Essentially, selling
> >software-based services, not software. When you're selling a service,
> >releasing the code makes no sense to *anyone*. The code is mostly
> >customer- or sector-specific, so is not reusable, and of little
> >interest to fellow developers. The customer *certainly* doesn't want
> >you publicising their code, breaking confidentiality agreements and
> >potentially exposing security flaws to the world.
> 
> Hmm, are you sure we are only selling services? I dunno.

I claimed that "large parts of our community" are selling services, not
software. I don't know how true that is. I *suspect* it's true; that
there are more consultants here than people banging out commercial code.
I could be completely wrong. That's why it's so hard and dangerous to
claim to speak for anyone but oneself.

> Exposing security flaws to the world is very debatable. Most
> cryptographers consider "security-by-obscurity" as bad practice. I
> would drop the exposition argument.

Yes that was very much in my mind :) The detractors of "security through
obscurity" are usually talking about large commercial software. When you
have custom code written in a hurry on a tight budget, security holes
inevitably arise, and security through obscurity is better than nothing.

Though your first impression is how most people will see it, so I agree
it should be removed.

> I found the ethics argument in the Reese-Stenberg article to be very
> powerful.
> 
> The original author has no *absolute* right on extensions and
> improvements.  The fact that I wrote 100 initial lines of code gives
> me no right, moral, ethical or otherwise to impose a license on the
> 10'000 lines that you subsequently write.  I certainly have no rights
> on 10'000 lines of *unrelated* code!

Indeed! But arguments of morality are even more treacherous than
arguments of pure pragmatism. GNU proponents would surely argue that the
means justifies the end. The goal of Software Freedom warrants a bit of
arm-twisting.

> >Thus, to adopt a copyleft license like the GPL would alienate the
> >service-oriented portion of our community. We want the widest
> >possible audience, not for "market share", but because the diverse
> >input results in software wi

RE: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Marc Saegesser]

I would love to see a document describes the Apache Software License, the
philosophy behind it and why we think the ASL is a good thing.  What I don't
want is another tirade about why GPL sucks.  There's enough of that out
there already and getting into pissing match over licensing just doesn't
seem productive.  It would be good to have a basic "Here's what we stand
for..." document with some pointers to other licenses and articles
discussing licensing issues.  Anything beyond that, I believe, belongs less
in the realm of the Apache web site and more in the realm of a magazine
article or blog discussion, etc.

Let people come look at our licensing document and how simple and open it
is, then let them go see the GPL document and read about all the things they
won't be able to use, all the things they won't be able to do and all the
things the FSF doesn't like.  I think we win.

Marc Saegesser 

> -Original Message-
> From: Ceki Gülcü [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 4:43 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 16:17 06.03.2002 -0600, you wrote:
> >-1
> >
> >I'm not sure we need this at all.
> 
> I disagree. I think we definitely need a solid document 
> countering the 
> idyllic but false world depicted
> by the FSF. It's just a gargantuan task to come up with a 
> such a document. 
> Regards, Ceki
> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> 
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
> 

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Re: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Andrew C. Oliver]

My opinion is you've come across just about as objective as Richard
Stallman would be in the Microsoft Beta testing program.  

No offense but this is EXACTLY the opposite of what is needed.  Way too
inflamatory, partisan and counter-productive to the target of just
"explaining to the confused" as to what the differences are.  

I kinda think the link off of the Apache Manual was fine...

-Andy

On Wed, 2002-03-06 at 16:46, Jeff Turner wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> As promised, I've written up an "ASL vs. GPL" page, for possible
> inclusion on jakarta-site2. I've more tried to capture the spirit of the
> thing from the Apache POV, than duplicate the detailed arguments in the
> O'Reilly article referenced at the end.
> 
> Please vote on whether you think the reasons outlined here are
> sufficiently representative. Constructive criticism and change
> suggestions welcome. If sufficiently approved of, I'll XMLify it and
> submit a patch.
> 
> --Jeff
> 
> 
> Why prefer the ASL to a copyleft license (eg GPL)?
> --
> 
> This is an slightly distasteful topic for most Apache developers. The license
> is simply not a central part of the Apache philosophy. Apache is about creating
> communities that create great software. The ASL is a minimum legal necessity
> that allows us to do this, nothing more. It promotes no political axe-grinding,
> and has no great philosophy that needs defending. The ASL, in fact, presents
> such a small conversational target that any licensing debate inevitably becomes
> "what is wrong with license X". That inevitably leads to misunderstandings,
> holy wars and bad feeling, It's not productive, and not fun, and why we find
> licensing debates distasteful.
> 
> In particular, it's not fun rubbishing the GPL. The reader is encouraged to
> read the GNU's philosophy pages (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/). It is
> wonderful, high-minded stuff that most programmers instantly resonate with.
> Opposing RMS's vision of Free Software at first seems to be like kicking a
> puppy.
> 
> But let's kick it anyway. It turns out that the puppy soon grows up to be a
> bulldog, biting and tenaciously hanging on to any code it can. Due to the GPL's
> extensive scope and 'viral' linking rules, GPL'ed code cannot be incorporated
> into proprietary software. It must all be copylefted, or none of it can be.
> 
> In many cases, we at Apache find the GPL's virality a hindrance in *our* goal:
> creating communities that create code. This is because large parts of our
> "community" are selling custom solutions, not shrink-wrapped products sold in
> volume for general consumption. Essentially, selling software-based services,
> not software. When you're selling a service, releasing the code makes no sense
> to *anyone*. The code is mostly customer- or sector-specific, so is not
> reusable, and of little interest to fellow developers. The customer *certainly*
> doesn't want you publicising their code, breaking confidentiality agreements
> and potentially exposing security flaws to the world.
> 
> Thus, to adopt a copyleft license like the GPL would alienate the
> service-oriented portion of our community. We want the widest possible
> audience, not for "market share", but because the diverse input results in
> software with "hybrid vigour", wide applicability and the kind of
> tough-as-nails quality we strive for.
> 
> Thus, we encourage users to adopt non-copyleft licenses like the ASL for
> "everyday" code, as it increases the chances of code sharing and cooperation,
> ultimately leading to better software.
> 
> For further information, please refer to the well-researched and well-written
> O'Reilly article entitled "Working Without Copyleft", at
> http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/policy/2001/12/12/transition.html
> A good general reference of open source licenses is Bruce Perens' book "Open
> Sources: Voices from the Open Source Revolution" at
> http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/perens.html
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
-- 
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http://jakarta.apache.org - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document 
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
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RE: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Ceki Gülcü]

At 16:17 06.03.2002 -0600, you wrote:
>-1
>
>I'm not sure we need this at all.

I disagree. I think we definitely need a solid document countering the 
idyllic but false world depicted
by the FSF. It's just a gargantuan task to come up with a such a document. 
Regards, Ceki



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Re: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Ceki Gülcü]

Jeff,

Kudos for having the courage to proceed with this. Comments inline.

At 08:46 07.03.2002 +1100, Jeff Turner wrote:
>Hi,
>
>As promised, I've written up an "ASL vs. GPL" page, for possible
>inclusion on jakarta-site2. I've more tried to capture the spirit of the
>thing from the Apache POV, than duplicate the detailed arguments in the
>O'Reilly article referenced at the end.
>
>Please vote on whether you think the reasons outlined here are
>sufficiently representative. Constructive criticism and change
>suggestions welcome. If sufficiently approved of, I'll XMLify it and
>submit a patch.
>
>--Jeff
>
>
>Why prefer the ASL to a copyleft license (eg GPL)?
>--
>
>This is an slightly distasteful topic for most Apache developers. The license
>is simply not a central part of the Apache philosophy. Apache is about 
>creating
>communities that create great software. The ASL is a minimum legal necessity
>that allows us to do this, nothing more. It promotes no political 
>axe-grinding,
>and has no great philosophy that needs defending. The ASL, in fact, presents
>such a small conversational target that any licensing debate inevitably 
>becomes
>"what is wrong with license X". That inevitably leads to misunderstandings,
>holy wars and bad feeling, It's not productive, and not fun, and why we find
>licensing debates distasteful.

The license is very much part of the Apache philosophy. It may even embody the
essence of the philosophy. No need to be apologetic about discussing
licensing. A good license is more valuable than a million lines of code.
I maybe exaggerating but only a little.

>In particular, it's not fun rubbishing the GPL. The reader is encouraged to
>read the GNU's philosophy pages (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/). It is
>wonderful, high-minded stuff that most programmers instantly resonate with.
>Opposing RMS's vision of Free Software at first seems to be like kicking a
>puppy.
>
>But let's kick it anyway. It turns out that the puppy soon grows up to be a
>bulldog, biting and tenaciously hanging on to any code it can. Due to the 
>GPL's
>extensive scope and 'viral' linking rules, GPL'ed code cannot be incorporated
>into proprietary software. It must all be copylefted, or none of it can be.

A bulldog? :-)

>In many cases, we at Apache find the GPL's virality a hindrance in *our* goal:

to (not in) *our* goal?

>creating communities that create code. This is because large parts of our

that write code?

>"community" are selling custom solutions, not shrink-wrapped products sold in
>volume for general consumption. Essentially, selling software-based services,
>not software. When you're selling a service, releasing the code makes no sense
>to *anyone*. The code is mostly customer- or sector-specific, so is not
>reusable, and of little interest to fellow developers. The customer 
>*certainly*
>doesn't want you publicising their code, breaking confidentiality agreements
>and potentially exposing security flaws to the world.

Hmm, are you sure we are only selling services? I dunno.

Exposing security flaws to the world is very debatable. Most cryptographers
consider "security-by-obscurity" as bad practice. I would drop the exposition
argument.

I found the ethics argument in the Reese-Stenberg article to be very powerful.

The original author has no *absolute* right on extensions and improvements.
The fact that I wrote 100 initial lines of code gives me no right, moral, 
ethical or
otherwise to impose a license on the 10'000 lines that you subsequently write.
I certainly have no rights on 10'000 lines of *unrelated* code!

>Thus, to adopt a copyleft license like the GPL would alienate the
>service-oriented portion of our community. We want the widest possible
>audience, not for "market share", but because the diverse input results in
>software with "hybrid vigour", wide applicability and the kind of
>tough-as-nails quality we strive for.

The service orientation again. We can't know the exact motivations of 
developers
for authoring open source code. Service-oriented software, maybe but maybe 
not.
The service-orientation argument is correct, just not exhaustive.

>Thus, we encourage users to adopt non-copyleft licenses like the ASL for
>"everyday" code, as it increases the chances of code sharing and cooperation,
>ultimately leading to better software.

What is meant by "everyday" code?

>For further information, please refer to the well-researched and well-written
>O'Reilly article entitled "Working Without Copyleft", at
>http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/policy/2001/12/12/transition.html
>A good general reference of open source licenses is Bruce Perens' book "Open
>Sources: Voices from the Open Source Revolution" at
>http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/perens.html

The "Working Without Copyleft" article is remarkably good. The point
about the FSF controlling the LGPL is another very significant point:

   The Free Software Foundation controls t

Re: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Jeff Turner]

On Thu, Mar 07, 2002 at 08:46:51AM +1100, Jeff Turner wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> As promised, I've written up an "ASL vs. GPL" page, for possible
> inclusion on jakarta-site2.
...
> Please vote on whether you think the reasons outlined here are
> sufficiently representative. Constructive criticism and change
> suggestions welcome.

On second thoughts...

I'm sure most of us are sick of the whole issue, and are NOT looking
forward to another barrage of email on the subject :-) So preferably,
keep replies to a simple vote and one-line explanation. Constructive
criticism and change suggestions are still welcome, but let's keep that
off-list as much as possible.

--Jeff

 
> --Jeff
> 
> 
> Why prefer the ASL to a copyleft license (eg GPL)?
> --
...

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RE: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Marc Saegesser]

-1

I'm not sure we need this at all.

If it stopped after the first paragraph and didn't mention copyleft and GPL
in the title I'd be -0.

Shouldn't this really be an ASF level decision instead of a Jakarta level
one?


Marc Saegesser 

> -Original Message-
> From: Jeff Turner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 3:47 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> As promised, I've written up an "ASL vs. GPL" page, for possible
> inclusion on jakarta-site2. I've more tried to capture the 
> spirit of the
> thing from the Apache POV, than duplicate the detailed 
> arguments in the
> O'Reilly article referenced at the end.
> 
> Please vote on whether you think the reasons outlined here are
> sufficiently representative. Constructive criticism and change
> suggestions welcome. If sufficiently approved of, I'll XMLify it and
> submit a patch.
> 
> --Jeff
> 
> 
> Why prefer the ASL to a copyleft license (eg GPL)?
> --
> 
> This is an slightly distasteful topic for most Apache 
> developers. The license
> is simply not a central part of the Apache philosophy. Apache 
> is about creating
> communities that create great software. The ASL is a minimum 
> legal necessity
> that allows us to do this, nothing more. It promotes no 
> political axe-grinding,
> and has no great philosophy that needs defending. The ASL, in 
> fact, presents
> such a small conversational target that any licensing debate 
> inevitably becomes
> "what is wrong with license X". That inevitably leads to 
> misunderstandings,
> holy wars and bad feeling, It's not productive, and not fun, 
> and why we find
> licensing debates distasteful.
> 
> In particular, it's not fun rubbishing the GPL. The reader is 
> encouraged to
> read the GNU's philosophy pages 
(http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/). It is
wonderful, high-minded stuff that most programmers instantly resonate with.
Opposing RMS's vision of Free Software at first seems to be like kicking a
puppy.

But let's kick it anyway. It turns out that the puppy soon grows up to be a
bulldog, biting and tenaciously hanging on to any code it can. Due to the
GPL's
extensive scope and 'viral' linking rules, GPL'ed code cannot be
incorporated
into proprietary software. It must all be copylefted, or none of it can be.

In many cases, we at Apache find the GPL's virality a hindrance in *our*
goal:
creating communities that create code. This is because large parts of our
"community" are selling custom solutions, not shrink-wrapped products sold
in
volume for general consumption. Essentially, selling software-based
services,
not software. When you're selling a service, releasing the code makes no
sense
to *anyone*. The code is mostly customer- or sector-specific, so is not
reusable, and of little interest to fellow developers. The customer
*certainly*
doesn't want you publicising their code, breaking confidentiality agreements
and potentially exposing security flaws to the world.

Thus, to adopt a copyleft license like the GPL would alienate the
service-oriented portion of our community. We want the widest possible
audience, not for "market share", but because the diverse input results in
software with "hybrid vigour", wide applicability and the kind of
tough-as-nails quality we strive for.

Thus, we encourage users to adopt non-copyleft licenses like the ASL for
"everyday" code, as it increases the chances of code sharing and
cooperation,
ultimately leading to better software.

For further information, please refer to the well-researched and
well-written
O'Reilly article entitled "Working Without Copyleft", at
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/policy/2001/12/12/transition.html
A good general reference of open source licenses is Bruce Perens' book "Open
Sources: Voices from the Open Source Revolution" at
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/perens.html


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[VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Jeff Turner]

Hi,

As promised, I've written up an "ASL vs. GPL" page, for possible
inclusion on jakarta-site2. I've more tried to capture the spirit of the
thing from the Apache POV, than duplicate the detailed arguments in the
O'Reilly article referenced at the end.

Please vote on whether you think the reasons outlined here are
sufficiently representative. Constructive criticism and change
suggestions welcome. If sufficiently approved of, I'll XMLify it and
submit a patch.

--Jeff


Why prefer the ASL to a copyleft license (eg GPL)?
--

This is an slightly distasteful topic for most Apache developers. The license
is simply not a central part of the Apache philosophy. Apache is about creating
communities that create great software. The ASL is a minimum legal necessity
that allows us to do this, nothing more. It promotes no political axe-grinding,
and has no great philosophy that needs defending. The ASL, in fact, presents
such a small conversational target that any licensing debate inevitably becomes
"what is wrong with license X". That inevitably leads to misunderstandings,
holy wars and bad feeling, It's not productive, and not fun, and why we find
licensing debates distasteful.

In particular, it's not fun rubbishing the GPL. The reader is encouraged to
read the GNU's philosophy pages (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/). It is
wonderful, high-minded stuff that most programmers instantly resonate with.
Opposing RMS's vision of Free Software at first seems to be like kicking a
puppy.

But let's kick it anyway. It turns out that the puppy soon grows up to be a
bulldog, biting and tenaciously hanging on to any code it can. Due to the GPL's
extensive scope and 'viral' linking rules, GPL'ed code cannot be incorporated
into proprietary software. It must all be copylefted, or none of it can be.

In many cases, we at Apache find the GPL's virality a hindrance in *our* goal:
creating communities that create code. This is because large parts of our
"community" are selling custom solutions, not shrink-wrapped products sold in
volume for general consumption. Essentially, selling software-based services,
not software. When you're selling a service, releasing the code makes no sense
to *anyone*. The code is mostly customer- or sector-specific, so is not
reusable, and of little interest to fellow developers. The customer *certainly*
doesn't want you publicising their code, breaking confidentiality agreements
and potentially exposing security flaws to the world.

Thus, to adopt a copyleft license like the GPL would alienate the
service-oriented portion of our community. We want the widest possible
audience, not for "market share", but because the diverse input results in
software with "hybrid vigour", wide applicability and the kind of
tough-as-nails quality we strive for.

Thus, we encourage users to adopt non-copyleft licenses like the ASL for
"everyday" code, as it increases the chances of code sharing and cooperation,
ultimately leading to better software.

For further information, please refer to the well-researched and well-written
O'Reilly article entitled "Working Without Copyleft", at
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/policy/2001/12/12/transition.html
A good general reference of open source licenses is Bruce Perens' book "Open
Sources: Voices from the Open Source Revolution" at
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/perens.html


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Re: StudioZ (was: Re: JakartaOne?)

[Daniel Rall]

"Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On 3/4/02 3:42 PM, "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> on 3/4/02 12:38 PM, "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>>> If we do that, we can do something technical as well in the Covalent space?
>> 
>> I don't think that would be a good idea because then you would be asking
>> people to travel all over town.
>> 
>> Just do the event in StudioZ...we have two spaces and the 'smaller' B space
>> (3000+ sq feet) is perfect for technical sessions...
>> 
>> Dirk offered to bring projectors and I can probably borrow one from BrianB
>> as well...
>
> That would be great then.  Just didn't want to have to shout over the noise
> from the dance floor :)

The space is really well setup for this sort of split-scene deal.

Dan

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Re: StudioZ (was: Re: JakartaOne?)

[Daniel Rall]

Jon, let me know what I can to help.

- Dan

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Re: Struts vs Turbine

[Daniel Rall]

alex <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> At 17:59 06/03/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >I,ve been working with Struts and I´ve constructed a site with this
>>framework, but now I need to make a portal and integrate this application
>>with it. I´ve  seen that exists turbine, but I can´t see how could I do to
>>reuse my application based on struts with this framework.
>>Thanks!
>>
>>Sara Janina Rubacha
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> Alex says:
>
> Turbine and Struts are separate things - neither of which is really to
> do with portals. In short: If you like JSP then use Struts, if you
> don't then use Turbine.

There is nothing in Turbine which hinders the use of JSP.  In fact,
Jason van Zyl (and others) have done work in Turbine 3 to make a JSP a
first-class citizen (even if it still remains a second rate technology
;-).

Turbine 3's full adoption of a pipeline processing model makes doing
thinks like embedding a Struts application in it very easy (Struts
slave mode, anyone?).

Additionally, Velocity can also now be used in Struts.  (Who said
Struts was just a one hit wonder?  ;-)

http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/toolsubproject.html

> Jetspeed is Apache's main portal. Jetspeed is built on top of Turbine
> and does not *need* JSP but you can use JSP if you want to do some of
> the layout.
>
> Alternatively some people say that you can build a portal with Cocoon
> by using its XML merging facilities.
>
> Further discussion of this should go on the jetspeed or cocoon mailing
> lists. Cheers

Yup, on target.

Dan

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XML-RPC 1.1 final released

[Daniel Rall]

Apache XML-RPC is a Java implementation of XML-RPC, a popular protocol
that uses XML over HTTP to implement remote procedure calls.

Apache XML-RPC was previously known as Helma XML-RPC. If you have code
using the Helma library, all you should have to do is change the
import statements in your code from helma.xmlrpc.* to
org.apache.xmlrpc.*.

The 1.1 release is primarily a performance enhancement and bug fix
release.  It is available for download at the following URL:

http://xml.apache.org/dist/xmlrpc/release/v1.1/

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Re: Struts vs Turbine

[alex]

At 17:59 06/03/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>I,ve been working with Struts and I´ve constructed a site with this
>framework, but now I need to make a portal and integrate this application
>with it. I´ve  seen that exists turbine, but I can´t see how could I do to
>reuse my application based on struts with this framework.
>Thanks!
>
>Sara Janina Rubacha
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]



Alex says:

Turbine and Struts are separate things - neither of which is really to do 
with portals. In short: If you like JSP then use Struts, if you don't then 
use Turbine.

Jetspeed is Apache's main portal. Jetspeed is built on top of Turbine and 
does not *need* JSP but you can use JSP if you want to do some of the layout.

Alternatively some people say that you can build a portal with Cocoon by 
using its XML merging facilities.

Further discussion of this should go on the jetspeed or cocoon mailing 
lists. Cheers

Alex McLintock





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Re: Back to JakartaOne planning...

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 3/6/02 7:40 AM, "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> My only concern is that I since it appears to be a short schlep, you can't
> just run over from java1 to jak1 and back - it sounds like you would have to
> commit to go and stay..

It is a 5 minute taxi ride and there are TONS of taxis' on 11th street
(where my club is) as well as in front of moscone...not a big deal...

-jon


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Struts vs Turbine

[JRubacha . SIEMPRO]

Hi,

I,ve been working with Struts and I´ve constructed a site with this
framework, but now I need to make a portal and integrate this application
with it. I´ve  seen that exists turbine, but I can´t see how could I do to
reuse my application based on struts with this framework.
Thanks!

Sara Janina Rubacha
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Back to JakartaOne planning...

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 3/6/02 9:02 AM, "James Strachan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> - Original Message -
> From: "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> On 3/5/02 10:40 PM, "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hey all,
>>> 
>>> I suggest that a few people step up to volunteer to make JakartaOne
> happen
>>> because it isn't going to happen all by itself. :-) Maybe even setup
> another
>>> mailing list to do planning on so that people who are interested in
> planning
>>> can join it and discuss things. If people are going to speak, a call for
>>> papers needs to go out, etc...
>>> 
>>> As far as I'm concerned with StudioZ, I think we have agreed that
> Tuesday
>>> the 26th is the day, but I still need a decision for the time's that the
>>> event will happen for.
>> 
>> Good question - day or night?  Which implies less conflict with things
>> people want to see/do at JavaOne?
> 
> Maybe both? Daytime could be a bit more formal & organised and night time
> could be more adhoc & beery ;)

Why am I not surprised you specifically noted that specific beverage  :)

My only concern is that I since it appears to be a short schlep, you can't
just run over from java1 to jak1 and back - it sounds like you would have to
commit to go and stay..

I don't have a solution though.

> 
> Last year was my first JavaOne and I found most of the stuff in the day in
> the first day or two to be miss-able - its usually the evening sessions or
> stuff later in the week that were most fun.
> 

Ok - that was my experience as well - maybe we can bank on that this year...
I'll try to find some schedule info first...

>> Are the schedules available yet?
>> 
>> I'm happy to do the call for presentations if I can get two others to help
>> me select if there are too many.  I assume we'll take all that we can fit
>> into the allotted time, but with more than one person, we can judiciously
>> select if we have to.
> 
> I'll gladly help.

Excellent!  Need one more.

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr.   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
You're going to end up getting pissed at your software
anyway, so you might as well not pay for it. Try Open Source.



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Re: Back to JakartaOne planning...

[James Strachan]

- Original Message -
From: "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> On 3/5/02 10:40 PM, "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hey all,
> >
> > I suggest that a few people step up to volunteer to make JakartaOne
happen
> > because it isn't going to happen all by itself. :-) Maybe even setup
another
> > mailing list to do planning on so that people who are interested in
planning
> > can join it and discuss things. If people are going to speak, a call for
> > papers needs to go out, etc...
> >
> > As far as I'm concerned with StudioZ, I think we have agreed that
Tuesday
> > the 26th is the day, but I still need a decision for the time's that the
> > event will happen for.
>
> Good question - day or night?  Which implies less conflict with things
> people want to see/do at JavaOne?

Maybe both? Daytime could be a bit more formal & organised and night time
could be more adhoc & beery ;)

Last year was my first JavaOne and I found most of the stuff in the day in
the first day or two to be miss-able - its usually the evening sessions or
stuff later in the week that were most fun.

> Are the schedules available yet?
>
> I'm happy to do the call for presentations if I can get two others to help
> me select if there are too many.  I assume we'll take all that we can fit
> into the allotted time, but with more than one person, we can judiciously
> select if we have to.

I'll gladly help.

James


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dead link to the regexp FAQ

[Marc Mamin]

Hi,

I'm looking for your FAQ on regular expressions, but unfortunately the link
on your website isn't working:


http://jakarta.apache.org/jyve-faq/Turbine/screen/DisplayTopics/action/SetAl
l/project_id/2/faq_id/27


Thanks for your help,

Marc Mamin;
Senior Support Engineer,
Knowledge Management
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

INTERSHOP
> http://www.intershop.com
Intershop Tower - 19th Floor
D-07740 Jena
Germany

Phone   +49 3641 50 1600
Fax +49-3641 50 1009



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Re: Insufficient Krma

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 3/6/02 10:05 AM, "Paul Hammant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Please could you grant me rights to jakarta-site2.  My user is
> 'hammant'.  I have three small patches to make to xml / html files.
> 
> "   Access denied: Insufficient Karma
> (hammant|jakarta-site2/xdocs/site)  "
> 
> Regards,
> 

Done.

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
POC lives!


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Insufficient Krma

[Paul Hammant]

Hi,

Please could you grant me rights to jakarta-site2.  My user is 
'hammant'.  I have three small patches to make to xml / html files.

"   Access denied: Insufficient Karma 
(hammant|jakarta-site2/xdocs/site)  "

Regards,

- Paul




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Re: Re: ASL vs. GPL page?

[acoliver]

>On 06 Mar 2002 14:50:24  0100 Gunnar =?iso-8859-1?q?R=F8nning?=
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote.


Thats how I feel.  Take POI, for instance, we don't want most things that
*could* be donated.  For example: say you write an office suite in Java... 
Cool, feel free to opensource it, but its way outside project scope..  We'll
fully support your efforts and mention you "poi/inthenews.html", but I sure
do hate doing GUI stuff ;-).  Next, anyone who's logic is flawed enough to
NOT want to donate their code back into the tree (so that it can be done
once and not thrice when you upgrade to the next release) -- we really
wouldn't want it (it would likely suffer from the same illogic)...

I'm just saying I object to the title ASL vs GPL etc..  The manual links to
a page I think is sufficient.  I think it should link to the o'reilly page
too because its very comprehensive and reasonably objective.  I object to
the idea that you MUST use GPL to get code donations...  *shrugs* but maybe
thats just me.

-Andy

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Re: ASL vs. GPL page?

[Gunnar Rønning]

* "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
|
| Order...but that's about the extent of it ;-).  Putting the page up
| would of course excite RMS people into a frenzy, but who cares (I have
| mail filters).  If people want the info, let em have it.

It doesn't need to be a bashing of the GPL. It would be better to a have
an objective comparison that explains the differences in terms of what you
can and cannot do with each license. For some organizations the GPL might make
for sense than the ASL and vice versa. One license only become better
than the other when you look at the actual objectives for the given product.

-- 
Gunnar Rønning - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Senior Consultant, Polygnosis AS, http://www.polygnosis.com/

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Re: Jakarta Documentation

[Paul Hammant]

Ted,

Oh great, a link to a post with Steffano -1ing my ApacheForge 
suggestion.  I'd prefer pages showing 'cumulative wsidom' than links to 
individual put-downs.
So as to be seen a doer not a moaner, I will make the changes myself :-)

- Paul

>OK, this is on it's own page now at 
>
>http://jakarta.apache.org/site/guides.html
>
>I added some bullets per your and Andy's suggestions. 
>
>-Ted.
>



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Re: jakarta-site2 sidebar

[Ted Husted]

+1 (done).

"Andrew C. Oliver" wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> quick proposal... does anyone object to me moving [MISC] Who we are? bla
> bla bal to the TOP of the sidebar and renaming it [ABOUT]?
> 
> Rationale: the MISC trivializes the information and says "don't read
> me".  If community is more important than codewhy is the code above
> the community info?  ;-)
> 
> I'm volunteering just waned consent first.
> 
> -Andy
> --
> www.superlinksoftware.com
> www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
> http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
> - fix java generics!
> 
> The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> vote.
> -Ambassador Kosh
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 

-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY US
-- Developing Java Web Applications with Struts
-- Tel: +1 585 737-3463
-> Web: http://husted.com/about/services

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RE: Jakarta Documentation

[Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro]

Hi Ted,

I find the second outline (The Volunteer Guides) better organized and more
focused. I would stick to that (the first one was just a proposal to start
the ball rolling).

Of course, a page commenting on the differences between the Apache license
and other free licenses, and why the Apache Foundation chose the latter,
would be nice to have. In fact, it should probably belong in www.apache.org.

Un saludo,

Alex.

> -Mensaje original-
> De: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Enviado el: miércoles 6 de marzo de 2002 0:39
> Para: Jakarta General List
> Asunto: Jakarta Documentation
> Any comments on this?
> 
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/methodology.html
> 
> 
> Note that there are two proposed outlines on the page. 
> 
> + Following the Jakarta Way
> 
> and
> 
> + The Volunteer Guides
> 
> In the latter, I'm trying to organize the material around the various
> roles people play around here, from a user to a committer to a sys
> admin, and have them build on each other. 
> 
> -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY US
> -- Developing Java Web Applications with Struts
> -- Tel: +1 585 737-3463
> -- Web: http://husted.com/struts
> 
> --
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> 
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> 
>