RE: Gump and Unicode

[Tim Vernum]

> export LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8 in /etc/.profile (or .bash_profile... 
> depending on shell) of the user under which the processes run 
> should map 
>
 
> I'm not Solaris Expert, so I can't comment on this.

My installs of Solaris 2.6 and 8 support the en_US.UTF-8 locale, so
I suspect the process is the same. (although I haven't tested)


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RE: Short Apache licence for source files

[Tim Vernum]

From: Ceki Gülcü [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> OK, I think I understand slightly better but our license refers to
> "this software" not to any specific file.

IANAL, IAN-Roy, IAN-ASF, but...

The license does not give any indication of what "this software" is.
i.e. It doesn't define the scope of the piece of work to which it applies.

Thus when Roy said:
'The problem with the 1.1 license is that it lacked a way to define the
   scope of what was covered beyond "this file".'

It means just that - the 1.1 license doesn't define what it applies to.
It refers vaguely to "THIS SOFTWARE", but that's all.

The concern is that if it is not directly included within the source files
then the scope of "THIS SOFTWARE" is unclear.
Does it include all the source?
What about the included jars?
What if those jars are not under the ASF license?

This not the case in the GPL (http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.txt) because
Term 0 of the GPL defines (ot attempts to define) the scope of the work.

My understanding is that License 2.0 will include a similar item (but I'm
basing that on guesswork).

While it should be clear to normal people what "this software" means,
lawyers have a nasty habit of not seeing the obvious :)


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RE: IDE Developers' guide

[Tim Vernum]

> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, 25 November 2002 7:27 AM

> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/idedevelopers.html
>
> Thanks for your help!  

It really needs a spell check


The Classpath is the fundemental concept behind Java's library usagage.
.fundamental...usage.


When you're working with multiple developers accross multiple platforms, 
.across 


This isn't only power, its a necessity!  
...it's ..


(or the GUI equivilent). 
equivalent .



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RE: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Tim Vernum]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> If you are a commiter - you have the same rights with all 
> other commiters.
> If you don't want to exercise some rights - it's your choice. 

But it's not just about exercising rights, it's also about
granting rights.

At the moment, you cannot grant someone one right (commit access)
without also granting them additional rights (voting etc).

Some people (myself included) would claim that the "condition of
entry" for those rights, are not equal.

In that case, where do you set the bar? At the bottom or the top?
It seems that that is where this discussion really came from.

Pier set it at the top (the code might be good, but he wasn't 
going to grant someone full committer rights based solely on that),
while you set it closer to the bottom (the code deserved commit 
access, and that implies the other rights).

Personally I'm -0 on this.

I don't think commit access should be so widely given out, because
I think that the developer communities should be larger than the
set of committers.
The voting rules allow for the casting of non-binding votes, but 
they tend not to be used much.
It's fairly easy for non-committers to submit patches, but that puts
a responsibility onto the committers to apply them in a timely fashion.

I'm not a committer on any (sub)project, but I don't think that should
stop me participating and expressing non-binding opinions.

The community is open to non-committers, and you/we should be encouraging
that. Why the rush to vote people in?
There's a number of things that the committer status gives - which ones
are being targeted?

If all you're trying to do is avoid having to apply their patches for 
them, then that's a different discussion (i.e. How do you improve the 
patch-submit-apply process).

If you think that he project needs to include the opinions/ideas of more
people, then listen to the non-binding votes.

I would think that making someone a committer is done in the anticipation
that they will become a core member of the tomcat & Jakarta communities.
The commit/voting rights are just a side effect of that.



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[OT] Subproject Proposal - crossdb

[Tim Vernum]

> It is a problem people can understand and is easy to become 
> fascinated with.
> 
> Similar to they way everyone in the world has created their 
> own text editor.

Pah!
Text Editors are for weenies.

Real developers write their own window manager :)


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RE: Subproject Proposal - crossdb

[Tim Vernum]

From: Leo Simons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> Torque is a persistence layer that uses O/R mapping to use a database
> to provide persistence. A persistence layer is a handy tool in many
> server applications.
> 
> CrossDB is a database abstraction layer that uses the Factory and the
> Builder pattern a lot which enables you to write code that works on
> several databases, transparantly. You can see it as an extension to
> JDBC. Database abstraction layers are useful in any application that
> talks to databases.

I would add, that having a database abstraction layer doesn't prevent
you from writing a persistence layer.

If a project had a need to hand-craft their persistence layer (not sure
why, but it's entirely possible), and a requirement to be able to connect
to different database implementations at runtime (I know of products with
that requirement) then it might be reasonable to write that persistence
layer using CrossDB.

You aren't scattering database logic throughout your code.
You are centralising it into one chunk of code.
You could read your column names from resources if you wished.

At some point some piece of code has to use jdbc to talk to your database.
If you need to talk to multiple databases (or even if you don't), then an
abstraction like CrossDB may be suitable.

I've never used it, I probably wouldn't use it, but if there is a need for
people to still use JDBC directly (and I believe there is, in some cases),
then a tool like CrossDB is not without merit.

Not that this is in any way endorsing it as a jakarta project, since the
requirement there are more about community and commitment than use cases.


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RE: Subproject Proposal - crossdb

[Tim Vernum]

From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> On Sun, 2002-04-21 at 21:10, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> > The project is called crossdb and can be found at www.crossdb.com.
> > 
> > What is it?
> > crossdb is a Java API that is used to create SQL statements 
> that are database independent.  So you can write an 
> application and have it run the exact same on any database 
> (ie: MySQL, Oracle, MS SQL Server, etc.)

> Out of morbid curiosity... I couldn't find this answered on the
> website...  How is this different then hsql 
> (hsqldb.sourceforge.net) and
> why would I want to use it as opposed to hsql?

I have nothing to do with either project, but hsql *is* a database.
crossdb is a database API

Your question is somewhat akin to "what's the difference between
jdbc and oracle?" 

To the original poster (Travis), if you haven't already done so,
you should read 
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html
and formulate your proposal to cover all the issues dicussed there.






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RE: Simple Question

[Tim Vernum]

From: Newman, Scott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> I have a simple question about tomcat. 

Then ask it on the tomcat-user list.

Please re-read
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html

This mailing list is not the appropriate place to ask this.

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Parallel Ant (was RE: The Complete Server Platform?)

[Tim Vernum]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> Cannot ant (like normal decent pmake/bsdmake) figure out from the
> dependencies what can be done in parallel. I am not asking for the
> awsomeness of 'make -j 8 world' of *BSD - butsomething close should be
> possible I take it - could be a nice graduade student project :-)

It's probably feasible, but hard, and arguably the wrong place to do it.

I assume that the time consuming part is the "javac".
If there's another task that's taking time, then it might be worth looking
at, but for javac...

Ant gets most of its speed gains (over make) by passing all the java
code to javac at once.
If it were passing the files one at a time, then it would be relatively
easy to run two processes at once.
But doing that would slow you down in almost all cases (maybe not
on the 8-way box, but in 99% of cases it would)

So Ant would have to take the fileset you pass, and do dependency analysis
on it to produce two (or more) disjoint sets of files to pass separately to
javac.
There's a fair amount of complexity there, and I'm not sure that Ant is the
place to put it.

Since the normal cases for JavaC is to pass in multiple files at once, I 
think javac should be able to parallelise itself.

So, a better grad project, might be to hack Jikes to support parallel
compiles.

[ I think follow-ups should go to Ant-Dev ]

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RE: Free Wi32-CVS Gui client

[Tim Vernum]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> I need a good free wi32 cvs client with gui.
> 
> Any websites for download?

Not sure how good it is (I don't use it) but:
http://www.wincvs.org/


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RE: More abuse of coding styles...

[Tim Vernum]

> > public void setSomethingComplicated(Object sometingComplicateed){ 
> >   this.somethingComplicated = somethingComplicated;
> > }
> 
> There's only possibility of problem there when you don't copy and
> paste your variable names.

I find (subjectively) that if you are a reasonable typer, then copy
and paste is a lot slower than just re-typing the variable name.
Especially in vi(m).


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RE: Code conventions

[Tim Vernum]

> It's only two little lines extra to include the {}'s, 

Yeah, but those two lines will make my code run slower.

Don't you know?

The less space your source code takes, the less space
your class file will take.
And smaller classes run faster.

It must be true - 90% of people I've worked with seem
to live by that principle.

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RE: crushed

[Tim Vernum]

> Perhaps like Commons, there should be an open proving ground 
> for those wishing to make steps into the Apache world.

Probably not what you had in mind, but adding the project to
the gump run would be a start.

All sorts of monitoring goes on then, including prompting from 
the gump-er (ie Sam) to fix things that break.
I know Sam (et al) have + will provide patches to other projects
to bring their build systems up to scratch.

It's a start at having the external community work with the
Jakarta community(/ies), which seems to be the primary concern.

If the project won't deal with gump nags, and can't keep their
builds from breaking then they probably won't fit into Jakarta.


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RE: problem with getRemoteHost() on Linux

[Tim Vernum]

From: Nick Bellias [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> We have Tomcat 3.3 Final on a SuSE Linux 7.3 platform
> in case you wonder.

Thankyou for your interest in Tomcat.

For support and discussion of the tomcat server, please
direct your mail to the tomcat-user mailing list as 
detailed below:
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html

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RE: Object : SSL client authentication acceptable CA list.

[Tim Vernum]

From: Bruno Dorel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> Tomcat CA list seems to be fixed : is it possible to add a CA (self
> signed certificate) to this list ?

Thankyou for your interest in Tomcat.

For support and discussion of the tomcat server, please
direct your mail to the tomcat-user mailing list as 
detailed below:
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RE: Starting Tomcat 3.2.2

[Tim Vernum]

From: Jochen Sauter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 
> I have a problem with starting the Tomcat 3.2.2 server on an 
> NT machine.

Thankyou for your interest in Tomcat.

For support and discussion of the tomcat server, please
direct your mail to the tomcat-user mailing list as 
detailed below:
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RE: Problem with Tomcat

[Tim Vernum]

From: Osama Shafaamri [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

>  I'm trying to use Tomcat 4.0.1 with our application,& we 
> have a problem,
> there is an exception which is thrown, & we don't know what 
> is the problem,
> even that with Tomcat 3.0 is working fine, so could you 
> please advise me.

Thankyou for your interest in Tomcat.

For support and discussion of the tomcat server, please
direct your mail to the tomcat-user mailing list as 
detailed below:
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RE: Using bzip2 for tarball

[Tim Vernum]

From: Daniel Rall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> GOMEZ Henri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > What about using the bzip2 format for tarball along
> > with gzip and zip format ?

> You have my +1, though I would instead recommend using bzip2 instead
> of gzip.

+1 on adding bzip2
-1 or removing gzip

Many (most?) non-linux users don't have bzip2 binaries, and forcing
people to download the (somewhat larger) .zip files would most likely
result in a net increase in traffic.

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RE: Tomcat 4.0 with RH 7.2

[Tim Vernum]

From: Craig Altenburg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> I am trying to configure mod_wepapp to work with Apache from 
> the RedHat 7.2 
> release.  

> Any suggestion?

Only that you try a more appropriate place to ask your questions.

http://nav.webring.yahoo.com/hub?ring=apachesupport&id=12&hub
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html


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RE: ImportScrubberTask

[Tim Vernum]

> probably - but that project is not alone. Heaps of external 
> projects use this 
> namespace. About the only ones who put it in their own namespace (ie 
> org.apache.torque.tasks.*) are at Apache or the occasional other one.

I think one of the causes is that people write optional tasks in the
hope that they will become part of the ant distribution, and when
the submission is knocked back, they continue to distribute the task
without changing the package.

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RE: HI

[Tim Vernum]

> Any hint of what I should try?  

Your first step would be to post to the correct list.
Maybe one of the tomcat ones?

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html



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RE: ASPizer

[Tim Vernum]

From: Endre Stølsvik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> So you (Jakarta) rejected Jboss. I didn't know that. How 
> incredibly smart
> of you. 

Ah yes, the incredible science of predicting alternative
realities.

How do you know that JBoss would have worked within Jakarta?
Maybe the JBoss developers would have clashed with the
culture here, and stopped working.

It is possible that JBoss is doing well *because* it is
a separate project, outside of the ASF.

Regardless, I don't think people have lost out.
JBoss exists, people can use it.
What would have been gained by making it part of Jakarta?

> Think about the synergies between Tomcat and Jboss!!!
> Wow! Incredible.

You can find synergies anywhere you want.
It doesn't mean that the project is a good fit at Jakarta.

>   It's just that Jakarta seems to be accepting and rejecting 
> according to
> what you - the *main* man - want..

I would hardly call Jon the "main" man.
But he is a member of the PMC which means he gets a vote.
And his vote carries no more weight than anyone else's.

You really seem to have some personal issues with Jon, how about
you take them offline.

We all know that Jon tends to be blunt and has a knack for offending
people. I believe that Jakarta would be better served if he toned it
down. But endless discussions on this list are not going to change
anything.

The Apache projects are meritocracies, people have influence based
on their contributions. Jon has contributed a lot and that is why
he is an ASF member.
This is how apache works - deal with it.

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RE: ASPizer

[Tim Vernum]

From: Avi Cherry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

>  Instead, he 
> questioned the motives of the developer offering their code, implying 
> that he was being selfish in wanting to have the Apache group take 
> the project in.  This was obviously not his intent,

It might have been obvious to you, but it wasn't obvious to me (and
 still isn't)

When I first read the original mail my reaction was "Someone with
a homeless project looking for an owner".

In fact Paul's most recent mail says
"As a result of this, we are interested in building a market
 through open source."

Which has an air of "we can't afford to do this ourselves so we're
hoping that we can utilise the Apache resources to get our product
of the ground".

There's nothing _wrong_ with that - my impression is that part of
Sun's motive for donating to Jakarta is to take advantage of the
resources/name of Apache to promote their technology.
It can be a win-win situation, but if no one here thinks the
project is worth being involved in, then there's no reason
for the PMC et al. to put time/resources into it.

> Jon, it wouldn't kill you to be polite. 

That I most certainly agree with.
Even a one line answer can be made more polite.
A dosage of "It appears to me..." or "I still don't see..."
can make most comments more palatable.

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RE: Viewcvs MIA

[Tim Vernum]

> Then he should ask on the viewcvs mailing list because 
> Jakarta's system is
> configured by the author of the product and isn't subscribed 
> here and can't
> do anything to help him.

And he was expected to know that, how?

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RE: Veltag JSP Taglib

[Tim Vernum]

> 
> I'm curious, why would you use Velocity in a JSP context? 
> What's the value-add over Velocity by itself? 

Buzzword compliance.
"Sure our webpages are using JSP - look http://www.oursite.com/index.jsp";

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RE: problem with Apache email?

[Tim Vernum]

From: Morgan Delagrange [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> I started using my Apache account, because at work we have to use
> Outlook 98, which is incapable (yes, incapable) of sending 
> emails without
> reformatting them as HTML.  

That's not quite true.
I used to use Outlook (or is that lookout?) 98, and there were
two solutions.

1) The bug is supposedly in exchange, and there's a patch from MS
that fixes it.

2) If you send the mail (explicitly) to someone in your contacts
list, then it will take on the specified format for that contact.
So, you can add each mailing list as a contact, set them to plain
text, and everytime you send a mail, change the To to use the
contact. (I never said it was a good solution)

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RE: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Tim Vernum]

[ My non-voting, highly irrelevant, self-obsessed opinion follows ]

> To put it right upfront, I don't think XML-RPC is a natural fit for
> xml.apache.org,

Possibly, but the argument is whether or not it is a more natural fit
for Jakarta.

> XML-RPC is a protocol that has been explicitly frozen since 
> 1998 or so, and
> even at that time it only used a small subset of XML. Sure, 
> it has the XML
> in its name, but all it does is define a handful of elements 
> to wrap some
> common data types - strings, numbers, date objects, structs 
> and so on. 

So it's an XML based protocol, that doesn't use all the XML
features.

That sounds much like Java programs that use JDK 1.1 ?
It doesn't have to be a "new/fresh/exciting" protocol to be
useful, and its usefulness is not decided by which project
it is in.

> XML-RPC is not about XML,

But nor is it "about" Java.
There are python versions of XML-RPC, etc.
What is it about Helma XML-RPC that makes it a project about
java?

> So why Jakarta? One area is HTTP support - XML-RPC works over 
> HTTP,

I don't follow.
Lots of things work over HTTP.
Jakarta != HTTP
httpd.apache.org is all about http, but I don't think that was
your argument.

> Of course, development can take place anywhere. I just don't 
> see how XML-RPC would fit into the Apache XML project. 

That being true, I think the problem is that Sam et al., don't
see how it fits into Jakarta any more closely.

Honest question:
 * What does Helma XML-RPC have to do with Java?

Is it just that it is written in Java?
If so, then what would happen if it was written in C++?

There is no cpp.apache.org, so it would either go into
Apache xml, or not be part of apache at all.

Would Apache be interested in this if it was written
in C++?

I guess Jason probably wouldn't, since he's using it in
a java project, but if Apache would host a C++ based 
XML-RPC project (and I contend that it would), then
the language issue is irrelevant.

If either:
* The project is only interesting to Apache because it
   is java based,
or
* The project has some Java integration that goes beyond
simply being implemented in java,
then it may well be suitable for Jakarta.

But (IMHO) it ultimately comes down to this:
* What's the useful feature of Helma XML-RPC?
  Is it that it's written in Java?
  Or that it implements XML-RPC?


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RE: sending returned email

[Tim Vernum]

From: Giedrius [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> We installed James Mail Server 1.2 with default configuration.
> And got interesting error:
> If MailServer can't send email, it stores in spool directory.
> And trying to send to sender with RE: and attached message.
> Then MAilServer can't send it, and history repeats until 
> there is not free
> space on the hard disk.

Sounds like something you should bring up on one of the
James mailing lists.

Try: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: [GUMP] Build Failure - Turbine

[Tim Vernum]

From: Sam Ruby (23 May 2001 10:02 AM)

> Jason van Zyl wrote:
> >
> > What is going on here? I fixed this code almost two days ago.
> 
> http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/gump/2001-05-21/cvs_index.html
> http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/gump/2001-05-22/cvs_index.html
> 
> Compare this to the "good old days":
> 
> http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/gump/2001-04-15/cvs_index.html
> 
> Daedalus performance (or lack thereof) has basically gotten 
> to the point
> where programs like Gump are great in theory, but impractical in
> practice...

(Disclaimer: I'm not a committer on any project, so my opinion is
 objective, but slightly under-informed, and without authority)

In general, I believe that automated build/test processes are *very*
important, an do work.
We've got some teams using CruiseControl here, and it is doing well.
The reasons I think that gump registers so many failures are:

1) The environment in which gump runs is not identical to the 
environment the developers run (OS, jdk, jars, etc), and I'm
not sure if it is even well defined.
   Now, given that these are supposed to be cross platform
java projects, that shouldn't be an issue, but it has been,
and will continue to be.
   Unless each developer replicates the Gump environment on his/her
workstation, they will not find all problems. However doing so
will only fix problems for that environment, so in some ways
leaving it slightly undefined is helpful to keep portability.

2) Developers can't/don't run the tests before checkin.
   In our situation, if you checkin something that breaks the tests,
you're an idiot.
   I don't think that happens in apache, for a few reasons.
   The primary one being that most people are doing this in the spare
time, and a channeling in patches from numerous sources. Forcing
full rebuilds with unit tests would make that channel so small that
work would grind to a virtual stand-still.

3) Developers can't/don't test other projects.
   This is particularly relevant to ant, but also to some of the XML
and (soon) commons modules.
   A number of build failures have been due to changes in ant.
   Ant should continue to be free to change things as needed to make
ant better, and that will continue to break projects that rely
on specific ant features/bugs.
   Unless the developers are going to rebuild all the dependant
projects everytime they make a change, then this will keep 
happening.

4) Gump (I think) only runs once a day.
   This means that there's up to 24hrs before you know that you broke
something.
   CruiseControl (generally) runs every 15 minutes, and rebuilds if
the project has had a new checkin. This way you know quite quickly
that you broke something.
   Potentially, you could have gump work in a system where if a project
fails a build, it moves to nightly builds only, but onces it passes
a nightly build it moves to a build every 3(?) hours, until it fails
again. 
   That way, you're not going to keep getting "build failed" messages
all days, waiting for someone to fix it, but you will know straight
away (alomost) when a change breaks a project.
   
5) Attitude.
   Given the length of time that some projects remain broken, I guess
some projects don't particularly care too much. Which is a pity.
   (Granted some projects believe they've fixed it, and that gump is
misbehaving, so you can't blame them for that).


Anyway, the conclusion I can see is that for reasons 1-3, gump is
actually replacing build/testing on developers machines, and is 
generally being the method by which people are alerted that they broke
something, rather than them discovering it themselves.
I don't think that this is a problem, but it will mean that gump is
going to keep failing.
I think if it gets repositioned to fill such a role (or maybe it 
already is, and I'm misinformed) then solving (4) will be useful.
Ultimately though, (5) is the kicker.

JM2C.

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