Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Jochen Wiedmann wrote: What's the problem? I can't see anyone from preventing an Axis2/C committer being a Axis2/Java committer as well, if he or she is interested in it? My expectation would be, though, that it is a minority only, who wants it. Jochen It could be small community compared to Axis2/Java community. But still it is an active community and ppl use Axis2/C for useful things. By the foregoing discussions I don't see any significant gain to the Axis2/Java community by making Axis2/C orphaned. So far there has been no problem being them together in the same svn code base so why bother now for no seemingly valid reason? Absolute -1 for making Axis2/C and Axis2/Java separate. Actually being together it has always been a strength at least for Axis2/C while it does not weaken Axis2/Java. Actually I have heard some proposals of combined solutions using both Axis2/Java and Axis2/C. thanks, Damitha -- __ Damitha Kumarage http://people.apache.org/ __ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 6:06 AM, Deepal jayasinghe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Honestly I have no idea. But some one working closely with Synapse would give the exact Answer. Well , thats the problem. As I mentioned earlier it gets more visibility how can you support your argument using [1] and [2]? As I can see both CXF and Axis2 have followed a similar kind of curve from Mar - Oct. So for me it is a different thing than being a TLP or not. thanks, Amila. and improvements after going as TLP. [1] http://people.apache.org/%7Evgritsenko/stats/projects/axis2.html#Downloads-N1008F [2] http://people.apache.org/%7Evgritsenko/stats/projects/cxf.html#Downloads-N1008F On one hand Synapse is different from other WS common projects since it was graduated from incubator. That does not make any sense. It is also a Web service project doing additional SOA stuff. And also if someone from Synapse can describe the pros/crons they got going for a TLP from WS commons project, that may help in this discussion. :) Deepal - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Amila Suriarachchi WSO2 Inc. blog: http://amilachinthaka.blogspot.com/
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
derstand what you mean , yes they should not come under Axis2 , and in fact we should try to get Axiom as a TLP (im not sure about Neethi). Why not Neethi a TLP if AXIOM is so? Hehe , no problem I really like if we can push as much as we can as TLP. The main reason I point out that we should make Axiom is TLP , is it has nothing to do with Web services or SOAP it is a streaming API for XML processing. So in my view it is like DOM. Deepal - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Deepal jayasinghe wrote: I think this thread itself shows the complications we would have by spiting it up. If we were to split it up does it make sense to keep projects like Rampart, Sandesha, Transports in WS? Yes they should come under Axis2 , because those projects are not useful without Axis2. Not the Transports!.. since some of them were contributed by the Synapse community on the basis that transports would be a separate project. The fact that they were developed by Synapse itself is a clear indication that they are useful even without direct use of Axis2. When we moved the transports out from Synapse, we also agreed that they could have separate releases, obviously based on a released Axis2 API version. asankha -- Asankha C. Perera http://adroitlogic.org http://esbmagic.blogspot.com
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Hi, My comments are inline On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 11:27 PM, Eran Chinthaka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I thought of not giving any inputs to this as once it seemed things were getting personal. But let me try once again. I assure you - nothing personal :) Let me first understand something. Isn't this a problem that should be discussed or voted, if required, in PMC, as this is about project management. Why this is raised in dev list without any consent in PMC? I know this decision will affect devs too, but If its ok to discuss these issues in dev lists, without any decision in PMC, I think it is best to cc other mailing lists too.( I can remember Dims sending this mail to general list initially. ) I think we had enough chat about this in the PMC and if you remember how the conversation ended, we needed more input. dev@ and general@ seems to be the right place to do so. Also if there is a vote can committers vote? I don't think so. I look at this thread as a means of getting more input from a crowd with broader interest. Once the things are done the vote would (could) be in PMC. Please don't take any of those questions personal. I am just trying to understand. Please see my comments in-line. On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 12:04 PM, Ajith Ranabahu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I should kick myself for not reading Axis2 mail frequently. I just spent 20 minutes reading the complete thread and just throwing my 2 cents. Ajith, its the nature of people and you can not understand them. I still can not understand why you want to split. See the same argument. If we could understand people well, then perhaps we would not have been surprised when they selected George W for the second time ;) Yes I agree people are unpredictable animals :) Atleast there was no such strong arguments to/against the move in the PMC list. Anyway, why I don't agree is I don't see a problem with the current way. Even if there is a problem, I still don't see how things will be better if we go to multiple TLPs. Here is a case that might take us back to the past. why was it that we did not start sandesha as a module of Axis but rather a separate sub project ? Why did we move Axiom, savan,rampart and every bit of reusable functionality out of the main Axis2 source tree ? With functionality comes specialization and this separation makes each of these little projects manageable. Now the same argument gets applied to Axis2 since Axis2 has become a large (if not the largest) portion of WS. it has achieved its own specialization and own set of followers As I noted earlier - things are not going to get fixed automagically. it just becomes easier to manage. There is a chance that a renewed strength and motivation sweeping through the committer base if we make a move but that is not guaranteed or relied on. 2. I have to agree to Dims that we have not been active as usual. There are open Jira's and I haven't had time to fix the few things that are pending in my niche projects (XMLSchema and tcpmon) let alone in Axis2. Ajith, I don't agree with you here. Axis2 now has a new breed of developers who are happily working on various components. People will be inactive for various reasons, but that is the nature of opensource projects. Those new people work on Axis2. They don't contribute to WS as a whole (meaning other Axis2 unrelated projects such as juddi,muse or scout) but work on very specific Axis2 components. What would be the more appropriate choice when it comes to committership ? Give them committership in the Axis2 project or give them committership in WS ? 3. I've been told that (before my time in Apache) that it is discouraged to put projects in an umbrella of functionality, say like in ws* or xml*. Instead Apache has embraced the related-or-not-related-but-interesting type of project names with 'projects' and not umbrellas. Just to make it clear does the words jackrabbit, lucene, synapse, Mina or Lenya make any hint of what the project actually does ? So i don't see the point of keeping Axis2 under the umbrella of ws* anymore. if the ws* argument to hold I would say all other Apache projects that provide the SOAP stack capability should come under ws* as well (such as CXF) Ok if your argument is about the name WS, as Deepal suggested let's rename this to something else. Say Kurumba ;) (Ok that was meant to be a joke, just to be clear) kurumba would have been fine (for the sake of the argument) since I can't see what motivated a name like jackrabbit :) [no pun intended on jackrabbit folks. For the clueless , Kurumba refers to the young coconut where the water inside is sweet. However there are many other uses of the word if you care to google]. My argument is there is no harm done in moving to a project that seemingly has an obscure (?) name. Apache has been doing it all along. As for the Java and C versions, I believe they are like siblings. They are both part of the Axis2
Re: Fwd: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
There are products out there which has different implementation based on the programming environment. For example, CruiseControl (http://cruisecontrol.sourceforge.net/) is for Java, then there is CruiseControl.NET and CruiseControl.rb. I think a similar approach can be taken for C without loosing its identity. /Sanjaya From: Manjula Peiris [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: general@ws.apache.org Sent: Saturday, November 1, 2008 10:44:26 AM Subject: Re: Fwd: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP On Sat, 2008-11-01 at 09:23 +0530, Samisa Abeysinghe wrote: It looks to me that the amount of confusion and frustration demonstrated in this thread is due to the mix of topics that we are discussing under the single topic, namely TLP. Some of the matters are not really TLP related. On one hand, there is talk about dropping C out of the picture, while making Axis2 a TLP. So natural tenancy from the C folks is a big NO. So is that equivalent to saying, no we do not need a TLP? Not really. Yes as a contributor to Axis2/C project my main concern is also on dropping out Axis2/C out of the picture. If we separate out these two projects it may affect Axis2/C project, and I don't think Axis2 will benefited from that either. Then there are questions related to activeness. And I do agree that it is a real problem, that needs to be solved. But IMHO I have doubts if a TLP would solve it. We need a clear list of things that we might be doing, when we become a TLP. And that list must obviously include the list of projects that will go under that TLP etc. Then we also need a separate list, that outlines problems that we have in the current setup. Including those that might be solved with TLP as well as those that might not. And if we can agree on the above, then we have to identify a media to collect those lists. A mailing list thread like this is distorting when it comes to listing things IMHO, so we might need a Wiki that everyone can edit. Thanks, Samisa... Ajith Ranabahu wrote: missed general@ -- Forwarded message -- From: Ajith Ranabahu [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I should kick myself for not reading Axis2 mail frequently. I just spent 20 minutes reading the complete thread and just throwing my 2 cents. 1. I am +1 (not a vote, a token of agreement) on making Axis2 a TLP. I have supported the decision in the PMC and I am still in support for it. As Deepal says I don't understand why people are so much worried about making Axis2 a TLP. We have kept all the major components as subprojects so far and what difference would it make if we house them in a different place ? 2. I have to agree to Dims that we have not been active as usual. There are open Jira's and I haven't had time to fix the few things that are pending in my niche projects (XMLSchema and tcpmon) let alone in Axis2. However I personally feel that it would be easier to do a better job (better than being done right now) if the teams are small and focused rather than generic and all over the place. Again the volume and the size clearly warrants a break just for the ease of management. Mind you - it would not automatically fix the problem - the site would not get fixed by magic and the Jiras would not vanish. However it may make it easier to do so. For the sake of the argument if a disgruntled user goes on commenting about Axis2 he would be shooting at the ws pmc. But the WS pmc consists of many other innocent PMCers that have nothing to do with Axis2! if we have clear separation then the responsibilities are clear. 3. I've been told that (before my time in Apache) that it is discouraged to put projects in an umbrella of functionality, say like in ws* or xml*. Instead Apache has embraced the related-or-not-related-but-interesting type of project names with 'projects' and not umbrellas. Just to make it clear does the words jackrabbit, lucene, synapse, Mina or Lenya make any hint of what the project actually does ? So i don't see the point of keeping Axis2 under the umbrella of ws* anymore. if the ws* argument to hold I would say all other Apache projects that provide the SOAP stack capability should come under ws* as well (such as CXF) 4. I don't suppose there is anyone with a secret (evil ;P) agenda of becoming the member of two PMC's supporting the split. But as I pointed out earlier ws has grown out of its bounds and its time we split things up for the sake of managing the complexity. Who we put as the chair is a different question and hopefully would be selected the democratic way (or by just looking at the mail count :D) For my final conclusion I am in support of this proposal. Ajith On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Paul Fremantle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Oct 31
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Hi, See my comments inline. On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Amila Suriarachchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hi, By going through all these discussions what I can think of is that going for TLP neither make it better nor worse. Ok why do you want to move Axiom out from Axis2 , because it has a big advantage when it is there in WS than in Axis2. yes. The advantage here is that they have separate svn and they can have independent releases. Axis2 can depends on particular Axiom Version while people developing Axiom. or Rampart/Sandesha can use a pirticular Axis2 version (if need) and can have independent releases. So in this scene WS project has broken things into separate manageable components with the time. Of course this has happened generally with the time and may happen in future as well. What is the big management advantage we get moving them to TLPs? Clarification here. There is not going to be axiom.apache.org or rampart.apache.org. Only Axis2 is going to move to a TLP and directly related sub projects will be under that as subprojects. I agree that there are a lot of jiras and incomplete web sits. The reason for this is lack of time committees getting to work on these project due to various personal reasons. So I think this is a different issue which can not be addressed by going for TLP. For an example both Ajith and Chinthaka were very active committers in this project. But now they only participate in discussions. Can we expect any change after going TLP? Lets say Deepal going to fix 50 issues after going TLP, why he can not do it now? (Here I have nothing make personal I try to explain what I want to say) True - As I have mentioned numerous times earlier there is not going to be any magic that solves our problems when Axis2 is moved to TLP. Instead we get a focused commiterbase and a PMC. When we attract committers we get to them to a more focused project. There is not going to be anything new happening with the current committers. instead we spare the confusion to all the newbies. Anyway, why I don't agree is I don't see a problem with the current way. Even if there is a problem, I still don't see how things will be better if we go to multiple TLPs. My concern is , Axis2 does not get what it is supposed to get. It is just stay inside something called WS. While some other Web service project acting as TLP. Well, are you saying that being a TLP a prestigious status? Of course this is a personal thing and I am not thinking like that. If so that is a different concern. There is a sense of independence and an expanded state of visibility in being a TLP. Why do you think the new projects graduating from incubator want to go TLP directly rather than hanging around as subprojects of an umbrella ? why is it that we see most of the donated projects (say hadoop and lucene from Yahoo or xmlbeans from BEA) becoming TLP's rather than settling down as subprojects ? IMHO the expanded visibility gives better opportunities to market themselves and also help them increase their focused commiterbase. thanks, Amila. -- Ajith Ranabahu Reading, after a certain age, diverts the mind too much from its creative pursuits. Any man who reads too much and uses his own brain too little falls into lazy habits of thinking - Albert Einstein - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Deepal, what does s/ws/axis2/g achieve? Sanjiva. Deepal jayasinghe wrote: I am trying to be a bit more optimistic that shaking things up may help generate enthusiasm. Though given Paul's and other people's response. I may be doing more harm than good. If these projects are beyond salvage. So be it then. Question is should we even bother to ask everyone with a VOTE or just give up right now... VOTE is the final thing , and I still can not understand why most the people do not want to make Axis2 TLP. In other projects they try a lot to make a their project into TLP , here it is totally different. If no one agree to make Axis2 TLP , I would suggest RENAME WS into Axis2. Just having one Web service project inside Apache WS is not fair , I think right approached would be for the people against making Axis2 a TLP fight to get other Apache Web services project into Apache WS. Deepal thanks, dims On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 7:41 AM, Samisa Abeysinghe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Davanum Srinivas wrote: Samisa, You have hit the nail on the head. People are who they are. Right now the umbrella is so vast that everyone is able to hide behind others. There is no accountability. When there is a smaller group of active people, There will be better accountability to each other and to the board and to our end users. There are tactics that we can employ for example, we should make a new single release including all projects including XmlSchema, Rampart and Sandesha with Axis2. But still make extra releases of say Sandesha2 as necessary as well separately for Sandesha. You will ask, why can't we do this today and i'll say that these kind of tactics work better with a TLP like focus. IMHO, sometimes, even getting an Axis2 release out of the door becomes a rolling stone, and takes so much time. I am not really sure how it would be to combine all those efforts together. Some of the long running and trivial issues like the crappy web site can be easily solved, give some cycles. Even I can volunteer to do that. However, you have to consider the long tail, if at all a TLP is to be taken up. Even it might be a good idea to make Axis3 yes 3 a TLP, but not Axis2. Becase Axis2 as a TLP would not be the same as the Axis2 as it used to be, both in technical fronts as well as in non-technical fronts. Thanks, Samisa... thanks, dims On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 4:28 AM, Samisa Abeysinghe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Davanum Srinivas wrote: Eran, Clearly you did not read my previous emails. *PLEASE* read them and then we can continue. For example, I said 1. The proposal was to split Axis2+Anything that Axis2 Uses+Anything that is built on Axis2 into a separate TLP. Also, i said this before, but repeat it again, The current status quo sucks. What we have is not working. - Really bad web sites - Really bad status of JIRA issues - Really bad track record of making releases periodically - There are many disjoint islands - The set of projects mentioned above is totally disjoint from other projects in WS PMC. How can a TLP solve all these? If people are who they are now, even after making Axis2 a TLP, the bad websites and bad release cycles will remain. On the other hand, if we cannot sync the releases of Axis2's sub projects, then irrespective of Axis2 being a TLP, it would turn out to be a useless project. Because one of Axis2's key strenghts is the set of sub projects it has. So IMHO, what is more important is to solve the above problems. However, I doubt if TLP would be a solution for that. Samisa... What we have is broken, We are not the only ones in this situation, this has happened before at Apache with XML and Jakarta PMC's. Please go and look at the history and how the projects are faring now after becoming logical/smaller footprint PMCs. Please go ask them or ask the board@ or ask members if you don't believe, let's learn from their experiences. *IF* people who are on the current projects that are not in the Axis2+Anything that Axis2 Uses+Anything that is built on Axis2 list want to tell us something, they should chime in and tell us what they think and we'll take a vote. Right now it's just a few of us who are just repeating the same things over and over again without even reading what the other person is saying. thanks, dims On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 6:07 PM, Eran Chinthaka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Davanum Srinivas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chinthaka, What are the problems that will be created? Please enumerate them. How is it being handled / smoothed over now and what would change specifically to make the cooperation not happen. Problems : 1. Another member will have to waste time on doing PMC work 2. We will lose the tight dependency between Axis2 and related projects like Axiom, Neethi, Sandesha, etc., There are numerous things like this that will happen.
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
A few quick comments: 1) I don't think things are as bad as some of this thread has implied. There are always ebbs and flows of time and effort on projects, and although there ARE a lot of open JIRAs, etc, it's not as if nothing has been getting done - for instance, 1.4.1 wasn't very long ago at all! That said, it is certainly true that regardless of the structure we end up with, it would be great if we could tighten our focus, reduce the JIRA count, and generally move towards higher quality across the project(s). 2) I do still think a separate TLP is a good idea for Axis and its subordinate technologies - in other words things that ONLY work with Axis2, like a) modules, and b) transports. I think commonly used libraries like XmlSchema and Axiom and Neethi should remain in WS, since they're also used outside of Axis2 by Abdera, CXF, etc. etc. So basically I'm still pushing for my original proposal. :) 3) As you may have noticed if you're on general@, I posted a draft proposal to promote Axis2 to TLP, and move Rampart, Sandeshsa, Kandula, Savan, and transports over there - this at least gives us something concrete to look at. Please feel free to comment/edit at will, or to put up alternates. Thoughts? --Glen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Hmm...why are u bringing up someone's employer? thanks, dims On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 3:02 PM, Sanjiva Weerawarana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd really like to hear from some of the other IBM folks working on axis2/java too - Nick, Bill, etc. - what do you think? You guys have been very quiet! Are you guys off of this stuff now? Sanjiva. Davanum Srinivas wrote: Folks, There was a WS PMC thread which has not yet shown up here So, WDYT? Could we spin off Axis2 and related projects into a separate TLP? Pros / Cons / Thoughts welcome. thanks, dims -- Sanjiva Weerawarana, Ph.D. Founder Director; Lanka Software Foundation; http://www.opensource.lk/ Founder, Chairman CEO; WSO2, Inc.; http://www.wso2.com/ Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/ Visiting Lecturer; University of Moratuwa; http://www.cse.mrt.ac.lk/ Blog: http://sanjiva.weerawarana.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fwd: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Yes as a contributor to Axis2/C project my main concern is also on dropping out Axis2/C out of the picture. If we separate out these two projects it may affect Axis2/C project, and I don't think Axis2 will benefited from that either. Well , I never told that we should drop Axis2/C , what I mean by Axis2 is both C and Java. Deepal - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Honestly I have no idea. But some one working closely with Synapse would give the exact Answer. Well , thats the problem. As I mentioned earlier it gets more visibility and improvements after going as TLP. On one hand Synapse is different from other WS common projects since it was graduated from incubator. That does not make any sense. It is also a Web service project doing additional SOA stuff. And also if someone from Synapse can describe the pros/crons they got going for a TLP from WS commons project, that may help in this discussion. :) Deepal - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
I'd really like to hear from some of the other IBM folks working on axis2/java too - Nick, Bill, etc. - what do you think? You guys have been very quiet! Are you guys off of this stuff now? Well then it should not only be IBM , there are other folks from other companies and individual working on Axis2, And other thing is Bill was so quiet for a long time :-) . Deepal Sanjiva. Davanum Srinivas wrote: Folks, There was a WS PMC thread which has not yet shown up here So, WDYT? Could we spin off Axis2 and related projects into a separate TLP? Pros / Cons / Thoughts welcome. thanks, dims - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Of course Deepal but there are bunch of folks from IBM who were very active and who are also deeply involved with Axis2. Sanjiva. Deepal jayasinghe wrote: I'd really like to hear from some of the other IBM folks working on axis2/java too - Nick, Bill, etc. - what do you think? You guys have been very quiet! Are you guys off of this stuff now? Well then it should not only be IBM , there are other folks from other companies and individual working on Axis2, And other thing is Bill was so quiet for a long time :-) . Deepal Sanjiva. Davanum Srinivas wrote: Folks, There was a WS PMC thread which has not yet shown up here So, WDYT? Could we spin off Axis2 and related projects into a separate TLP? Pros / Cons / Thoughts welcome. thanks, dims - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Sanjiva Weerawarana, Ph.D. Founder Director; Lanka Software Foundation; http://www.opensource.lk/ Founder, Chairman CEO; WSO2, Inc.; http://www.wso2.com/ Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/ Visiting Lecturer; University of Moratuwa; http://www.cse.mrt.ac.lk/ Blog: http://sanjiva.weerawarana.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Jeez, there's a conspiracy behind every statement eh? As I just replied to Deepal, I brought it up because there were a bunch of IBM folks who used to work on Axis2 who were active who also are stakeholders. However, the invitation was not limited to IBM folks - my apologies if such implication was apparent. So, what about other folks - this conversation has been limited to a few people so far and it'll be great to get more voices heard. Sanjiva. Davanum Srinivas wrote: Hmm...why are u bringing up someone's employer? thanks, dims On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 3:02 PM, Sanjiva Weerawarana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd really like to hear from some of the other IBM folks working on axis2/java too - Nick, Bill, etc. - what do you think? You guys have been very quiet! Are you guys off of this stuff now? Sanjiva. Davanum Srinivas wrote: Folks, There was a WS PMC thread which has not yet shown up here So, WDYT? Could we spin off Axis2 and related projects into a separate TLP? Pros / Cons / Thoughts welcome. thanks, dims -- Sanjiva Weerawarana, Ph.D. Founder Director; Lanka Software Foundation; http://www.opensource.lk/ Founder, Chairman CEO; WSO2, Inc.; http://www.wso2.com/ Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/ Visiting Lecturer; University of Moratuwa; http://www.cse.mrt.ac.lk/ Blog: http://sanjiva.weerawarana.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Sanjiva Weerawarana, Ph.D. Founder Director; Lanka Software Foundation; http://www.opensource.lk/ Founder, Chairman CEO; WSO2, Inc.; http://www.wso2.com/ Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/ Visiting Lecturer; University of Moratuwa; http://www.cse.mrt.ac.lk/ Blog: http://sanjiva.weerawarana.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Davanum Srinivas wrote: Eran, Clearly you did not read my previous emails. *PLEASE* read them and then we can continue. For example, I said 1. The proposal was to split Axis2+Anything that Axis2 Uses+Anything that is built on Axis2 into a separate TLP. Also, i said this before, but repeat it again, The current status quo sucks. What we have is not working. - Really bad web sites - Really bad status of JIRA issues - Really bad track record of making releases periodically - There are many disjoint islands - The set of projects mentioned above is totally disjoint from other projects in WS PMC. How can a TLP solve all these? If people are who they are now, even after making Axis2 a TLP, the bad websites and bad release cycles will remain. On the other hand, if we cannot sync the releases of Axis2's sub projects, then irrespective of Axis2 being a TLP, it would turn out to be a useless project. Because one of Axis2's key strenghts is the set of sub projects it has. So IMHO, what is more important is to solve the above problems. However, I doubt if TLP would be a solution for that. Samisa... What we have is broken, We are not the only ones in this situation, this has happened before at Apache with XML and Jakarta PMC's. Please go and look at the history and how the projects are faring now after becoming logical/smaller footprint PMCs. Please go ask them or ask the board@ or ask members if you don't believe, let's learn from their experiences. *IF* people who are on the current projects that are not in the Axis2+Anything that Axis2 Uses+Anything that is built on Axis2 list want to tell us something, they should chime in and tell us what they think and we'll take a vote. Right now it's just a few of us who are just repeating the same things over and over again without even reading what the other person is saying. thanks, dims On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 6:07 PM, Eran Chinthaka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Davanum Srinivas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chinthaka, What are the problems that will be created? Please enumerate them. How is it being handled / smoothed over now and what would change specifically to make the cooperation not happen. Problems : 1. Another member will have to waste time on doing PMC work 2. We will lose the tight dependency between Axis2 and related projects like Axiom, Neethi, Sandesha, etc., There are numerous things like this that will happen. If you can point your finger to specific scenarios. We can see if we can come up with specific solutions. (Say common svn area where both committers can have access). Let me back up. What is broken in the current layout that mandates us to go for different TLPs? Also, Don't mind me, i repeat my mantra for the n-th time again. Those who are actively working on a day to day basis should be taking the decisions. What we are doing is not working and i propose we try something new to see if it will work. My point is exactly this. Why do we waste time on going to fix something which is not broken? Let's get back to work ;) -- Samisa Abeysinghe http://people.apache.org/~samisa/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 9:21 AM, Samisa Abeysinghe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -1. They share the same architecture. They do the same this, only the implementation is different. And they are supposed to work with each other, interop in other words, so they have lot in common. Interoperability is not an argument. Axis is trying hard to be interoperable with others as well. About the architecture: Might be, but that doesn't mean, that it is a single community in practice. To convince me, you should give me *more* examples like the following, where work actually shared: It is a fact that, you can interop being disjoint projects. However, we even use the WSDL2Code tool to generate code. If Axis2/Java becomes a separate TLP and can an Axis2/C comittor do changed to that tool? What's the problem? I can't see anyone from preventing an Axis2/C committer being a Axis2/Java committer as well, if he or she is interested in it? My expectation would be, though, that it is a minority only, who wants it. Jochen -- I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out how to use my telephone. -- (Bjarne Stroustrup, http://www.research.att.com/~bs/bs_faq.html#really-say-that My guess: Nokia E50) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Jochen Its not just about interop - its about a shared design and a shared community. 1) I believe that the Axis2/C team has worked very hard to share code, designs and work closely with the rest of the team. I'm not sure that the Java team has worked so closely, but I guess that is because they tended to build the code ahead of the C team. However, I think you need to take strong account of the views of the C team in this process. 2) There is a benefit to keeping these together. While we have - on the whole - had benefit of splitting Synapse out, it has also made some aspects a little trickier (e.g. the transport discussions). Now, Synapse has a different aim than Axis2, but I don't believe thats true for Axis2/C and Axis2/Java. 3) There are some interesting things we can do *together* with Axis2/C and Java. For example, Axis2/C is around 6 times faster at handling WS-Security than Axis2/Java. We could do a JNI-based high-performance WS-Security transport for Java using the C code. I don't want to make these kinds of things harder. 4) Axis2 has a unique position in having a Java AND C library and the same architecture. This is a serious advantage over other libraries. We need to strengthen not weaken this bond. Paul On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 8:37 AM, Jochen Wiedmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 9:21 AM, Samisa Abeysinghe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -1. They share the same architecture. They do the same this, only the implementation is different. And they are supposed to work with each other, interop in other words, so they have lot in common. Interoperability is not an argument. Axis is trying hard to be interoperable with others as well. About the architecture: Might be, but that doesn't mean, that it is a single community in practice. To convince me, you should give me *more* examples like the following, where work actually shared: It is a fact that, you can interop being disjoint projects. However, we even use the WSDL2Code tool to generate code. If Axis2/Java becomes a separate TLP and can an Axis2/C comittor do changed to that tool? What's the problem? I can't see anyone from preventing an Axis2/C committer being a Axis2/Java committer as well, if he or she is interested in it? My expectation would be, though, that it is a minority only, who wants it. Jochen -- I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out how to use my telephone. -- (Bjarne Stroustrup, http://www.research.att.com/~bs/bs_faq.html#really-say-that My guess: Nokia E50) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Paul Fremantle Co-Founder and CTO, WSO2 Apache Synapse PMC Chair OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oxygenating the Web Service Platform, www.wso2.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Jochen Wiedmann wrote: On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 9:21 AM, Samisa Abeysinghe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -1. They share the same architecture. They do the same this, only the implementation is different. And they are supposed to work with each other, interop in other words, so they have lot in common. Interoperability is not an argument. Axis is trying hard to be interoperable with others as well. What is the last time you tested interop with Axis2/C??? About the architecture: Might be, but that doesn't mean, that it is a single community in practice. I am part of Axis2/Java and Axis2/C and you are now trying to leave me out of that. To convince me, you should give me *more* examples like the following, where work actually shared: Why should I convince you? Have you made the decision already. Rather I guess you should convince me, given I am the one who started Axis2/C and you are now trying to undo that. It is a fact that, you can interop being disjoint projects. However, we even use the WSDL2Code tool to generate code. If Axis2/Java becomes a separate TLP and can an Axis2/C comittor do changed to that tool? What's the problem? I can't see anyone from preventing an Axis2/C committer being a Axis2/Java committer as well, if he or she is interested in it? My expectation would be, though, that it is a minority only, who wants it. We are not a minority, we are part of WS. There are not majority or minority in WS PMC. PMCs are PMCs. I am one and I have equal rights. My question was, I am already a WS commiter, not an Axis2/Java or Axis2/C comitter. What happens to me when Axis2 is made a TLP dropping C? Samisa... Jochen -- Samisa Abeysinghe http://people.apache.org/~samisa/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Samisa, You have hit the nail on the head. People are who they are. Right now the umbrella is so vast that everyone is able to hide behind others. There is no accountability. When there is a smaller group of active people, There will be better accountability to each other and to the board and to our end users. There are tactics that we can employ for example, we should make a new single release including all projects including XmlSchema, Rampart and Sandesha with Axis2. But still make extra releases of say Sandesha2 as necessary as well separately for Sandesha. You will ask, why can't we do this today and i'll say that these kind of tactics work better with a TLP like focus. thanks, dims On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 4:28 AM, Samisa Abeysinghe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Davanum Srinivas wrote: Eran, Clearly you did not read my previous emails. *PLEASE* read them and then we can continue. For example, I said 1. The proposal was to split Axis2+Anything that Axis2 Uses+Anything that is built on Axis2 into a separate TLP. Also, i said this before, but repeat it again, The current status quo sucks. What we have is not working. - Really bad web sites - Really bad status of JIRA issues - Really bad track record of making releases periodically - There are many disjoint islands - The set of projects mentioned above is totally disjoint from other projects in WS PMC. How can a TLP solve all these? If people are who they are now, even after making Axis2 a TLP, the bad websites and bad release cycles will remain. On the other hand, if we cannot sync the releases of Axis2's sub projects, then irrespective of Axis2 being a TLP, it would turn out to be a useless project. Because one of Axis2's key strenghts is the set of sub projects it has. So IMHO, what is more important is to solve the above problems. However, I doubt if TLP would be a solution for that. Samisa... What we have is broken, We are not the only ones in this situation, this has happened before at Apache with XML and Jakarta PMC's. Please go and look at the history and how the projects are faring now after becoming logical/smaller footprint PMCs. Please go ask them or ask the board@ or ask members if you don't believe, let's learn from their experiences. *IF* people who are on the current projects that are not in the Axis2+Anything that Axis2 Uses+Anything that is built on Axis2 list want to tell us something, they should chime in and tell us what they think and we'll take a vote. Right now it's just a few of us who are just repeating the same things over and over again without even reading what the other person is saying. thanks, dims On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 6:07 PM, Eran Chinthaka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Davanum Srinivas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chinthaka, What are the problems that will be created? Please enumerate them. How is it being handled / smoothed over now and what would change specifically to make the cooperation not happen. Problems : 1. Another member will have to waste time on doing PMC work 2. We will lose the tight dependency between Axis2 and related projects like Axiom, Neethi, Sandesha, etc., There are numerous things like this that will happen. If you can point your finger to specific scenarios. We can see if we can come up with specific solutions. (Say common svn area where both committers can have access). Let me back up. What is broken in the current layout that mandates us to go for different TLPs? Also, Don't mind me, i repeat my mantra for the n-th time again. Those who are actively working on a day to day basis should be taking the decisions. What we are doing is not working and i propose we try something new to see if it will work. My point is exactly this. Why do we waste time on going to fix something which is not broken? Let's get back to work ;) -- Samisa Abeysinghe http://people.apache.org/~samisa/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
related note - i once upon a time used to hold ws up as the best model of working in open source. It's a tragic pity that we are now just a shell of what we used to be. my 2 cents. YMMV. -- dims On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 6:11 AM, Davanum Srinivas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Samisa, You have hit the nail on the head. People are who they are. Right now the umbrella is so vast that everyone is able to hide behind others. There is no accountability. When there is a smaller group of active people, There will be better accountability to each other and to the board and to our end users. There are tactics that we can employ for example, we should make a new single release including all projects including XmlSchema, Rampart and Sandesha with Axis2. But still make extra releases of say Sandesha2 as necessary as well separately for Sandesha. You will ask, why can't we do this today and i'll say that these kind of tactics work better with a TLP like focus. thanks, dims On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 4:28 AM, Samisa Abeysinghe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Davanum Srinivas wrote: Eran, Clearly you did not read my previous emails. *PLEASE* read them and then we can continue. For example, I said 1. The proposal was to split Axis2+Anything that Axis2 Uses+Anything that is built on Axis2 into a separate TLP. Also, i said this before, but repeat it again, The current status quo sucks. What we have is not working. - Really bad web sites - Really bad status of JIRA issues - Really bad track record of making releases periodically - There are many disjoint islands - The set of projects mentioned above is totally disjoint from other projects in WS PMC. How can a TLP solve all these? If people are who they are now, even after making Axis2 a TLP, the bad websites and bad release cycles will remain. On the other hand, if we cannot sync the releases of Axis2's sub projects, then irrespective of Axis2 being a TLP, it would turn out to be a useless project. Because one of Axis2's key strenghts is the set of sub projects it has. So IMHO, what is more important is to solve the above problems. However, I doubt if TLP would be a solution for that. Samisa... What we have is broken, We are not the only ones in this situation, this has happened before at Apache with XML and Jakarta PMC's. Please go and look at the history and how the projects are faring now after becoming logical/smaller footprint PMCs. Please go ask them or ask the board@ or ask members if you don't believe, let's learn from their experiences. *IF* people who are on the current projects that are not in the Axis2+Anything that Axis2 Uses+Anything that is built on Axis2 list want to tell us something, they should chime in and tell us what they think and we'll take a vote. Right now it's just a few of us who are just repeating the same things over and over again without even reading what the other person is saying. thanks, dims On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 6:07 PM, Eran Chinthaka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Davanum Srinivas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chinthaka, What are the problems that will be created? Please enumerate them. How is it being handled / smoothed over now and what would change specifically to make the cooperation not happen. Problems : 1. Another member will have to waste time on doing PMC work 2. We will lose the tight dependency between Axis2 and related projects like Axiom, Neethi, Sandesha, etc., There are numerous things like this that will happen. If you can point your finger to specific scenarios. We can see if we can come up with specific solutions. (Say common svn area where both committers can have access). Let me back up. What is broken in the current layout that mandates us to go for different TLPs? Also, Don't mind me, i repeat my mantra for the n-th time again. Those who are actively working on a day to day basis should be taking the decisions. What we are doing is not working and i propose we try something new to see if it will work. My point is exactly this. Why do we waste time on going to fix something which is not broken? Let's get back to work ;) -- Samisa Abeysinghe http://people.apache.org/~samisa/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com -- Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Ah the glory days when you were Veep! Paul On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Davanum Srinivas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: related note - i once upon a time used to hold ws up as the best model of working in open source. It's a tragic pity that we are now just a shell of what we used to be. my 2 cents. YMMV. -- dims On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 6:11 AM, Davanum Srinivas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Samisa, You have hit the nail on the head. People are who they are. Right now the umbrella is so vast that everyone is able to hide behind others. There is no accountability. When there is a smaller group of active people, There will be better accountability to each other and to the board and to our end users. There are tactics that we can employ for example, we should make a new single release including all projects including XmlSchema, Rampart and Sandesha with Axis2. But still make extra releases of say Sandesha2 as necessary as well separately for Sandesha. You will ask, why can't we do this today and i'll say that these kind of tactics work better with a TLP like focus. thanks, dims On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 4:28 AM, Samisa Abeysinghe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Davanum Srinivas wrote: Eran, Clearly you did not read my previous emails. *PLEASE* read them and then we can continue. For example, I said 1. The proposal was to split Axis2+Anything that Axis2 Uses+Anything that is built on Axis2 into a separate TLP. Also, i said this before, but repeat it again, The current status quo sucks. What we have is not working. - Really bad web sites - Really bad status of JIRA issues - Really bad track record of making releases periodically - There are many disjoint islands - The set of projects mentioned above is totally disjoint from other projects in WS PMC. How can a TLP solve all these? If people are who they are now, even after making Axis2 a TLP, the bad websites and bad release cycles will remain. On the other hand, if we cannot sync the releases of Axis2's sub projects, then irrespective of Axis2 being a TLP, it would turn out to be a useless project. Because one of Axis2's key strenghts is the set of sub projects it has. So IMHO, what is more important is to solve the above problems. However, I doubt if TLP would be a solution for that. Samisa... What we have is broken, We are not the only ones in this situation, this has happened before at Apache with XML and Jakarta PMC's. Please go and look at the history and how the projects are faring now after becoming logical/smaller footprint PMCs. Please go ask them or ask the board@ or ask members if you don't believe, let's learn from their experiences. *IF* people who are on the current projects that are not in the Axis2+Anything that Axis2 Uses+Anything that is built on Axis2 list want to tell us something, they should chime in and tell us what they think and we'll take a vote. Right now it's just a few of us who are just repeating the same things over and over again without even reading what the other person is saying. thanks, dims On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 6:07 PM, Eran Chinthaka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Davanum Srinivas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chinthaka, What are the problems that will be created? Please enumerate them. How is it being handled / smoothed over now and what would change specifically to make the cooperation not happen. Problems : 1. Another member will have to waste time on doing PMC work 2. We will lose the tight dependency between Axis2 and related projects like Axiom, Neethi, Sandesha, etc., There are numerous things like this that will happen. If you can point your finger to specific scenarios. We can see if we can come up with specific solutions. (Say common svn area where both committers can have access). Let me back up. What is broken in the current layout that mandates us to go for different TLPs? Also, Don't mind me, i repeat my mantra for the n-th time again. Those who are actively working on a day to day basis should be taking the decisions. What we are doing is not working and i propose we try something new to see if it will work. My point is exactly this. Why do we waste time on going to fix something which is not broken? Let's get back to work ;) -- Samisa Abeysinghe http://people.apache.org/~samisa/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com -- Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Paul Fremantle Co-Founder and CTO, WSO2 Apache Synapse PMC Chair OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org [EMAIL
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
I'd have to agree with the view that Axis2/Java Axis2/C have quite a lot in common. The sames concepts architecture are used by both these projects. In effect, a person who understands the concepts architecture of one, can easily understand the other. So, IMHO, we should not separate these projects. Axis2/C is a very useful project since it makes it possible to make use of it to build Web service frameworks in other languages like PHP, Ruby, Perl, C++ etc. So it has a wide are of usage, and caters to a wider audience. Hence it is not correct to even imply that it is less important. I'm sure that the Axis2/C developers users would have taken great offense in such statements. I've been observing this thread for sometime now, and I feel that making Axis2 a TLP is going to give rise to more problems than finding solutions to the problems at hand. What we should do is to come up with a plan to address the issues concerns, rather than saying 'making Axis2 a TLP will solve all the problems'. Thanks Azeez On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 3:28 PM, Samisa Abeysinghe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jochen Wiedmann wrote: On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 9:21 AM, Samisa Abeysinghe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -1. They share the same architecture. They do the same this, only the implementation is different. And they are supposed to work with each other, interop in other words, so they have lot in common. Interoperability is not an argument. Axis is trying hard to be interoperable with others as well. What is the last time you tested interop with Axis2/C??? About the architecture: Might be, but that doesn't mean, that it is a single community in practice. I am part of Axis2/Java and Axis2/C and you are now trying to leave me out of that. To convince me, you should give me *more* examples like the following, where work actually shared: Why should I convince you? Have you made the decision already. Rather I guess you should convince me, given I am the one who started Axis2/C and you are now trying to undo that. It is a fact that, you can interop being disjoint projects. However, we even use the WSDL2Code tool to generate code. If Axis2/Java becomes a separate TLP and can an Axis2/C comittor do changed to that tool? What's the problem? I can't see anyone from preventing an Axis2/C committer being a Axis2/Java committer as well, if he or she is interested in it? My expectation would be, though, that it is a minority only, who wants it. We are not a minority, we are part of WS. There are not majority or minority in WS PMC. PMCs are PMCs. I am one and I have equal rights. My question was, I am already a WS commiter, not an Axis2/Java or Axis2/C comitter. What happens to me when Axis2 is made a TLP dropping C? Samisa... Jochen -- Samisa Abeysinghe http://people.apache.org/~samisa/ http://people.apache.org/%7Esamisa/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Thanks Afkham Azeez Blog: http://afkham.org Developer Portal: http://www.wso2.org WSAS Blog: http://wso2wsas.blogspot.com Company: http://wso2.com GPG Fingerprint: 643F C2AF EB78 F886 40C9 B2A2 4AE2 C887 665E 0760
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Davanum Srinivas wrote: Samisa, You have hit the nail on the head. People are who they are. Right now the umbrella is so vast that everyone is able to hide behind others. There is no accountability. When there is a smaller group of active people, There will be better accountability to each other and to the board and to our end users. There are tactics that we can employ for example, we should make a new single release including all projects including XmlSchema, Rampart and Sandesha with Axis2. But still make extra releases of say Sandesha2 as necessary as well separately for Sandesha. You will ask, why can't we do this today and i'll say that these kind of tactics work better with a TLP like focus. IMHO, sometimes, even getting an Axis2 release out of the door becomes a rolling stone, and takes so much time. I am not really sure how it would be to combine all those efforts together. Some of the long running and trivial issues like the crappy web site can be easily solved, give some cycles. Even I can volunteer to do that. However, you have to consider the long tail, if at all a TLP is to be taken up. Even it might be a good idea to make Axis3 yes 3 a TLP, but not Axis2. Becase Axis2 as a TLP would not be the same as the Axis2 as it used to be, both in technical fronts as well as in non-technical fronts. Thanks, Samisa... thanks, dims On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 4:28 AM, Samisa Abeysinghe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Davanum Srinivas wrote: Eran, Clearly you did not read my previous emails. *PLEASE* read them and then we can continue. For example, I said 1. The proposal was to split Axis2+Anything that Axis2 Uses+Anything that is built on Axis2 into a separate TLP. Also, i said this before, but repeat it again, The current status quo sucks. What we have is not working. - Really bad web sites - Really bad status of JIRA issues - Really bad track record of making releases periodically - There are many disjoint islands - The set of projects mentioned above is totally disjoint from other projects in WS PMC. How can a TLP solve all these? If people are who they are now, even after making Axis2 a TLP, the bad websites and bad release cycles will remain. On the other hand, if we cannot sync the releases of Axis2's sub projects, then irrespective of Axis2 being a TLP, it would turn out to be a useless project. Because one of Axis2's key strenghts is the set of sub projects it has. So IMHO, what is more important is to solve the above problems. However, I doubt if TLP would be a solution for that. Samisa... What we have is broken, We are not the only ones in this situation, this has happened before at Apache with XML and Jakarta PMC's. Please go and look at the history and how the projects are faring now after becoming logical/smaller footprint PMCs. Please go ask them or ask the board@ or ask members if you don't believe, let's learn from their experiences. *IF* people who are on the current projects that are not in the Axis2+Anything that Axis2 Uses+Anything that is built on Axis2 list want to tell us something, they should chime in and tell us what they think and we'll take a vote. Right now it's just a few of us who are just repeating the same things over and over again without even reading what the other person is saying. thanks, dims On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 6:07 PM, Eran Chinthaka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Davanum Srinivas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chinthaka, What are the problems that will be created? Please enumerate them. How is it being handled / smoothed over now and what would change specifically to make the cooperation not happen. Problems : 1. Another member will have to waste time on doing PMC work 2. We will lose the tight dependency between Axis2 and related projects like Axiom, Neethi, Sandesha, etc., There are numerous things like this that will happen. If you can point your finger to specific scenarios. We can see if we can come up with specific solutions. (Say common svn area where both committers can have access). Let me back up. What is broken in the current layout that mandates us to go for different TLPs? Also, Don't mind me, i repeat my mantra for the n-th time again. Those who are actively working on a day to day basis should be taking the decisions. What we are doing is not working and i propose we try something new to see if it will work. My point is exactly this. Why do we waste time on going to fix something which is not broken? Let's get back to work ;) -- Samisa Abeysinghe http://people.apache.org/~samisa/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Samisa Abeysinghe http://people.apache.org/~samisa/
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Deepal On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 2:13 PM, Deepal jayasinghe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: VOTE is the final thing , and I still can not understand why most the people do not want to make Axis2 TLP. I'm very happy to have Axis2 as a TLP including both Java and C. Paul Paul Fremantle Co-Founder and CTO, WSO2 Apache Synapse PMC Chair OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oxygenating the Web Service Platform, www.wso2.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Davanum Srinivas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Though given Paul's and other people's response. Dims, my response was a light-hearted comment on the situation, and made no reference to whether or not Axis2 should be a TLP. I'm sorry if you took it in a way it wasn't meant to be taken, but I certainly wasn't making any comment against the proposal. I am in favour of making Axis2 a TLP, and I'm surprised if anything I have said led you or anyone else to think otherwise. Paul -- Paul Fremantle Co-Founder and CTO, WSO2 Apache Synapse PMC Chair OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oxygenating the Web Service Platform, www.wso2.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Fwd: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
missed general@ -- Forwarded message -- From: Ajith Ranabahu [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I should kick myself for not reading Axis2 mail frequently. I just spent 20 minutes reading the complete thread and just throwing my 2 cents. 1. I am +1 (not a vote, a token of agreement) on making Axis2 a TLP. I have supported the decision in the PMC and I am still in support for it. As Deepal says I don't understand why people are so much worried about making Axis2 a TLP. We have kept all the major components as subprojects so far and what difference would it make if we house them in a different place ? 2. I have to agree to Dims that we have not been active as usual. There are open Jira's and I haven't had time to fix the few things that are pending in my niche projects (XMLSchema and tcpmon) let alone in Axis2. However I personally feel that it would be easier to do a better job (better than being done right now) if the teams are small and focused rather than generic and all over the place. Again the volume and the size clearly warrants a break just for the ease of management. Mind you - it would not automatically fix the problem - the site would not get fixed by magic and the Jiras would not vanish. However it may make it easier to do so. For the sake of the argument if a disgruntled user goes on commenting about Axis2 he would be shooting at the ws pmc. But the WS pmc consists of many other innocent PMCers that have nothing to do with Axis2! if we have clear separation then the responsibilities are clear. 3. I've been told that (before my time in Apache) that it is discouraged to put projects in an umbrella of functionality, say like in ws* or xml*. Instead Apache has embraced the related-or-not-related-but-interesting type of project names with 'projects' and not umbrellas. Just to make it clear does the words jackrabbit, lucene, synapse, Mina or Lenya make any hint of what the project actually does ? So i don't see the point of keeping Axis2 under the umbrella of ws* anymore. if the ws* argument to hold I would say all other Apache projects that provide the SOAP stack capability should come under ws* as well (such as CXF) 4. I don't suppose there is anyone with a secret (evil ;P) agenda of becoming the member of two PMC's supporting the split. But as I pointed out earlier ws has grown out of its bounds and its time we split things up for the sake of managing the complexity. Who we put as the chair is a different question and hopefully would be selected the democratic way (or by just looking at the mail count :D) For my final conclusion I am in support of this proposal. Ajith On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Paul Fremantle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Davanum Srinivas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Though given Paul's and other people's response. Dims, my response was a light-hearted comment on the situation, and made no reference to whether or not Axis2 should be a TLP. I'm sorry if you took it in a way it wasn't meant to be taken, but I certainly wasn't making any comment against the proposal. I am in favour of making Axis2 a TLP, and I'm surprised if anything I have said led you or anyone else to think otherwise. Paul -- Paul Fremantle Co-Founder and CTO, WSO2 Apache Synapse PMC Chair OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oxygenating the Web Service Platform, www.wso2.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ajith Ranabahu Reading, after a certain age, diverts the mind too much from its creative pursuits. Any man who reads too much and uses his own brain too little falls into lazy habits of thinking - Albert Einstein -- Ajith Ranabahu Reading, after a certain age, diverts the mind too much from its creative pursuits. Any man who reads too much and uses his own brain too little falls into lazy habits of thinking - Albert Einstein - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Hi Ajith, +1 , Very well said. Thank you! Deepal I should kick myself for not reading Axis2 mail frequently. I just spent 20 minutes reading the complete thread and just throwing my 2 cents. 1. I am +1 (not a vote, a token of agreement) on making Axis2 a TLP. I have supported the decision in the PMC and I am still in support for it. As Deepal says I don't understand why people are so much worried about making Axis2 a TLP. We have kept all the major components as subprojects so far and what difference would it make if we house them in a different place ? 2. I have to agree to Dims that we have not been active as usual. There are open Jira's and I haven't had time to fix the few things that are pending in my niche projects (XMLSchema and tcpmon) let alone in Axis2. However I personally feel that it would be easier to do a better job (better than being done right now) if the teams are small and focused rather than generic and all over the place. Again the volume and the size clearly warrants a break just for the ease of management. Mind you - it would not automatically fix the problem - the site would not get fixed by magic and the Jiras would not vanish. However it may make it easier to do so. For the sake of the argument if a disgruntled user goes on commenting about Axis2 he would be shooting at the ws pmc. But the WS pmc consists of many other innocent PMCers that have nothing to do with Axis2! if we have clear separation then the responsibilities are clear. 3. I've been told that (before my time in Apache) that it is discouraged to put projects in an umbrella of functionality, say like in ws* or xml*. Instead Apache has embraced the related-or-not-related-but-interesting type of project names with 'projects' and not umbrellas. Just to make it clear does the words jackrabbit, lucene, synapse, Mina or Lenya make any hint of what the project actually does ? So i don't see the point of keeping Axis2 under the umbrella of ws* anymore. if the ws* argument to hold I would say all other Apache projects that provide the SOAP stack capability should come under ws* as well (such as CXF) 4. I don't suppose there is anyone with a secret (evil ;P) agenda of becoming the member of two PMC's supporting the split. But as I pointed out earlier ws has grown out of its bounds and its time we split things up for the sake of managing the complexity. Who we put as the chair is a different question and hopefully would be selected the democratic way (or by just looking at the mail count :D) For my final conclusion I am in support of this proposal. Ajith - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
I would also like to have Axis2 as a TLP project too. From the end user point of view, the real container is Axis2. Other projects are parts/components, which enhanced its capability. There is very little (or no some times) use when you take these other components by itself without the core engine for the web services developer. Isn't it? /Sanjaya On Friday 31 October 2008, Paul Fremantle wrote: Deepal On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 2:13 PM, Deepal jayasinghe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: VOTE is the final thing , and I still can not understand why most the people do not want to make Axis2 TLP. I'm very happy to have Axis2 as a TLP including both Java and C. Paul Paul Fremantle Co-Founder and CTO, WSO2 Apache Synapse PMC Chair OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oxygenating the Web Service Platform, www.wso2.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fwd: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
It looks to me that the amount of confusion and frustration demonstrated in this thread is due to the mix of topics that we are discussing under the single topic, namely TLP. Some of the matters are not really TLP related. On one hand, there is talk about dropping C out of the picture, while making Axis2 a TLP. So natural tenancy from the C folks is a big NO. So is that equivalent to saying, no we do not need a TLP? Not really. Then there are questions related to activeness. And I do agree that it is a real problem, that needs to be solved. But IMHO I have doubts if a TLP would solve it. We need a clear list of things that we might be doing, when we become a TLP. And that list must obviously include the list of projects that will go under that TLP etc. Then we also need a separate list, that outlines problems that we have in the current setup. Including those that might be solved with TLP as well as those that might not. And if we can agree on the above, then we have to identify a media to collect those lists. A mailing list thread like this is distorting when it comes to listing things IMHO, so we might need a Wiki that everyone can edit. Thanks, Samisa... Ajith Ranabahu wrote: missed general@ -- Forwarded message -- From: Ajith Ranabahu [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I should kick myself for not reading Axis2 mail frequently. I just spent 20 minutes reading the complete thread and just throwing my 2 cents. 1. I am +1 (not a vote, a token of agreement) on making Axis2 a TLP. I have supported the decision in the PMC and I am still in support for it. As Deepal says I don't understand why people are so much worried about making Axis2 a TLP. We have kept all the major components as subprojects so far and what difference would it make if we house them in a different place ? 2. I have to agree to Dims that we have not been active as usual. There are open Jira's and I haven't had time to fix the few things that are pending in my niche projects (XMLSchema and tcpmon) let alone in Axis2. However I personally feel that it would be easier to do a better job (better than being done right now) if the teams are small and focused rather than generic and all over the place. Again the volume and the size clearly warrants a break just for the ease of management. Mind you - it would not automatically fix the problem - the site would not get fixed by magic and the Jiras would not vanish. However it may make it easier to do so. For the sake of the argument if a disgruntled user goes on commenting about Axis2 he would be shooting at the ws pmc. But the WS pmc consists of many other innocent PMCers that have nothing to do with Axis2! if we have clear separation then the responsibilities are clear. 3. I've been told that (before my time in Apache) that it is discouraged to put projects in an umbrella of functionality, say like in ws* or xml*. Instead Apache has embraced the related-or-not-related-but-interesting type of project names with 'projects' and not umbrellas. Just to make it clear does the words jackrabbit, lucene, synapse, Mina or Lenya make any hint of what the project actually does ? So i don't see the point of keeping Axis2 under the umbrella of ws* anymore. if the ws* argument to hold I would say all other Apache projects that provide the SOAP stack capability should come under ws* as well (such as CXF) 4. I don't suppose there is anyone with a secret (evil ;P) agenda of becoming the member of two PMC's supporting the split. But as I pointed out earlier ws has grown out of its bounds and its time we split things up for the sake of managing the complexity. Who we put as the chair is a different question and hopefully would be selected the democratic way (or by just looking at the mail count :D) For my final conclusion I am in support of this proposal. Ajith On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Paul Fremantle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Davanum Srinivas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Though given Paul's and other people's response. Dims, my response was a light-hearted comment on the situation, and made no reference to whether or not Axis2 should be a TLP. I'm sorry if you took it in a way it wasn't meant to be taken, but I certainly wasn't making any comment against the proposal. I am in favour of making Axis2 a TLP, and I'm surprised if anything I have said led you or anyone else to think otherwise. Paul -- Paul Fremantle Co-Founder and CTO, WSO2 Apache Synapse PMC Chair OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oxygenating the Web Service Platform, www.wso2.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ajith Ranabahu Reading, after a certain age, diverts the mind too
Re: Fwd: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
On Sat, 2008-11-01 at 09:23 +0530, Samisa Abeysinghe wrote: It looks to me that the amount of confusion and frustration demonstrated in this thread is due to the mix of topics that we are discussing under the single topic, namely TLP. Some of the matters are not really TLP related. On one hand, there is talk about dropping C out of the picture, while making Axis2 a TLP. So natural tenancy from the C folks is a big NO. So is that equivalent to saying, no we do not need a TLP? Not really. Yes as a contributor to Axis2/C project my main concern is also on dropping out Axis2/C out of the picture. If we separate out these two projects it may affect Axis2/C project, and I don't think Axis2 will benefited from that either. Then there are questions related to activeness. And I do agree that it is a real problem, that needs to be solved. But IMHO I have doubts if a TLP would solve it. We need a clear list of things that we might be doing, when we become a TLP. And that list must obviously include the list of projects that will go under that TLP etc. Then we also need a separate list, that outlines problems that we have in the current setup. Including those that might be solved with TLP as well as those that might not. And if we can agree on the above, then we have to identify a media to collect those lists. A mailing list thread like this is distorting when it comes to listing things IMHO, so we might need a Wiki that everyone can edit. Thanks, Samisa... Ajith Ranabahu wrote: missed general@ -- Forwarded message -- From: Ajith Ranabahu [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I should kick myself for not reading Axis2 mail frequently. I just spent 20 minutes reading the complete thread and just throwing my 2 cents. 1. I am +1 (not a vote, a token of agreement) on making Axis2 a TLP. I have supported the decision in the PMC and I am still in support for it. As Deepal says I don't understand why people are so much worried about making Axis2 a TLP. We have kept all the major components as subprojects so far and what difference would it make if we house them in a different place ? 2. I have to agree to Dims that we have not been active as usual. There are open Jira's and I haven't had time to fix the few things that are pending in my niche projects (XMLSchema and tcpmon) let alone in Axis2. However I personally feel that it would be easier to do a better job (better than being done right now) if the teams are small and focused rather than generic and all over the place. Again the volume and the size clearly warrants a break just for the ease of management. Mind you - it would not automatically fix the problem - the site would not get fixed by magic and the Jiras would not vanish. However it may make it easier to do so. For the sake of the argument if a disgruntled user goes on commenting about Axis2 he would be shooting at the ws pmc. But the WS pmc consists of many other innocent PMCers that have nothing to do with Axis2! if we have clear separation then the responsibilities are clear. 3. I've been told that (before my time in Apache) that it is discouraged to put projects in an umbrella of functionality, say like in ws* or xml*. Instead Apache has embraced the related-or-not-related-but-interesting type of project names with 'projects' and not umbrellas. Just to make it clear does the words jackrabbit, lucene, synapse, Mina or Lenya make any hint of what the project actually does ? So i don't see the point of keeping Axis2 under the umbrella of ws* anymore. if the ws* argument to hold I would say all other Apache projects that provide the SOAP stack capability should come under ws* as well (such as CXF) 4. I don't suppose there is anyone with a secret (evil ;P) agenda of becoming the member of two PMC's supporting the split. But as I pointed out earlier ws has grown out of its bounds and its time we split things up for the sake of managing the complexity. Who we put as the chair is a different question and hopefully would be selected the democratic way (or by just looking at the mail count :D) For my final conclusion I am in support of this proposal. Ajith On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Paul Fremantle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Davanum Srinivas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Though given Paul's and other people's response. Dims, my response was a light-hearted comment on the situation, and made no reference to whether or not Axis2 should be a TLP. I'm sorry if you took it in a way it wasn't meant to be taken, but I certainly wasn't making any comment against the proposal. I am in favour of making Axis2 a TLP, and I'm surprised if anything I have said led you or anyone else to think
Re: Fwd: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
IMHO Axis2 project as a TLP should be both Java and C. Thanks, Ruchith On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 1:14 AM, Manjula Peiris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 2008-11-01 at 09:23 +0530, Samisa Abeysinghe wrote: It looks to me that the amount of confusion and frustration demonstrated in this thread is due to the mix of topics that we are discussing under the single topic, namely TLP. Some of the matters are not really TLP related. On one hand, there is talk about dropping C out of the picture, while making Axis2 a TLP. So natural tenancy from the C folks is a big NO. So is that equivalent to saying, no we do not need a TLP? Not really. Yes as a contributor to Axis2/C project my main concern is also on dropping out Axis2/C out of the picture. If we separate out these two projects it may affect Axis2/C project, and I don't think Axis2 will benefited from that either. Then there are questions related to activeness. And I do agree that it is a real problem, that needs to be solved. But IMHO I have doubts if a TLP would solve it. We need a clear list of things that we might be doing, when we become a TLP. And that list must obviously include the list of projects that will go under that TLP etc. Then we also need a separate list, that outlines problems that we have in the current setup. Including those that might be solved with TLP as well as those that might not. And if we can agree on the above, then we have to identify a media to collect those lists. A mailing list thread like this is distorting when it comes to listing things IMHO, so we might need a Wiki that everyone can edit. Thanks, Samisa... Ajith Ranabahu wrote: missed general@ -- Forwarded message -- From: Ajith Ranabahu [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I should kick myself for not reading Axis2 mail frequently. I just spent 20 minutes reading the complete thread and just throwing my 2 cents. 1. I am +1 (not a vote, a token of agreement) on making Axis2 a TLP. I have supported the decision in the PMC and I am still in support for it. As Deepal says I don't understand why people are so much worried about making Axis2 a TLP. We have kept all the major components as subprojects so far and what difference would it make if we house them in a different place ? 2. I have to agree to Dims that we have not been active as usual. There are open Jira's and I haven't had time to fix the few things that are pending in my niche projects (XMLSchema and tcpmon) let alone in Axis2. However I personally feel that it would be easier to do a better job (better than being done right now) if the teams are small and focused rather than generic and all over the place. Again the volume and the size clearly warrants a break just for the ease of management. Mind you - it would not automatically fix the problem - the site would not get fixed by magic and the Jiras would not vanish. However it may make it easier to do so. For the sake of the argument if a disgruntled user goes on commenting about Axis2 he would be shooting at the ws pmc. But the WS pmc consists of many other innocent PMCers that have nothing to do with Axis2! if we have clear separation then the responsibilities are clear. 3. I've been told that (before my time in Apache) that it is discouraged to put projects in an umbrella of functionality, say like in ws* or xml*. Instead Apache has embraced the related-or-not-related-but-interesting type of project names with 'projects' and not umbrellas. Just to make it clear does the words jackrabbit, lucene, synapse, Mina or Lenya make any hint of what the project actually does ? So i don't see the point of keeping Axis2 under the umbrella of ws* anymore. if the ws* argument to hold I would say all other Apache projects that provide the SOAP stack capability should come under ws* as well (such as CXF) 4. I don't suppose there is anyone with a secret (evil ;P) agenda of becoming the member of two PMC's supporting the split. But as I pointed out earlier ws has grown out of its bounds and its time we split things up for the sake of managing the complexity. Who we put as the chair is a different question and hopefully would be selected the democratic way (or by just looking at the mail count :D) For my final conclusion I am in support of this proposal. Ajith On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Paul Fremantle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Davanum Srinivas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Though given Paul's and other people's response. Dims, my response was a light-hearted comment on the situation, and made no reference to whether or not Axis2 should be a TLP. I'm sorry if you took it in a way it wasn't meant to be taken, but I certainly wasn't making any comment against the proposal. I am
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Eran Chinthaka wrote: I hope I'm still not late to comment on this. I'm also with Sanjiva on this issue. Axis2 is just not Axis2 project alone. Axiom and others are integral parts of it. Couple of challenges/questions from me. 1. Let's take the Glen's proposal on two projects and list down the developers in each project. Hehe , then what Apache should do is remove all the TLPs and their PMC's and list down developers in different projects :) The one idea of TLP is to build small communities and improve them , then automatically Apache as a whole will be improved. If we can find people to man the PMC's and act as chair, sure, let's get more projects as TLP's., will that hold? If the project addresses a potential problem , yes we should. If this is the case , then I think apache member level we have to take some other decision , where there are a number of project doing the same thing and they are considered as TLP. So is it worth doing this? I'm extremely sorry if I'm missing something, but still I can not see a compelling argument to move on to a new TLP. As I can see you looking at the problem in differently , its not about who is going to be the PMC chair , or whether we are going to become a PMC in some other list. Its about get more visibility to the projects and enhance the project. -Deepal Just my 2 cents. Chinthaka On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 7:20 PM, Davanum Srinivas [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anything that is usable/shipped with Axis2 or depends on Axis2 IMHO. -- dims - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Eran, Clearly you did not read my previous emails. *PLEASE* read them and then we can continue. For example, I said 1. The proposal was to split Axis2+Anything that Axis2 Uses+Anything that is built on Axis2 into a separate TLP. Also, i said this before, but repeat it again, The current status quo sucks. What we have is not working. - Really bad web sites - Really bad status of JIRA issues - Really bad track record of making releases periodically - There are many disjoint islands - The set of projects mentioned above is totally disjoint from other projects in WS PMC. What we have is broken, We are not the only ones in this situation, this has happened before at Apache with XML and Jakarta PMC's. Please go and look at the history and how the projects are faring now after becoming logical/smaller footprint PMCs. Please go ask them or ask the board@ or ask members if you don't believe, let's learn from their experiences. *IF* people who are on the current projects that are not in the Axis2+Anything that Axis2 Uses+Anything that is built on Axis2 list want to tell us something, they should chime in and tell us what they think and we'll take a vote. Right now it's just a few of us who are just repeating the same things over and over again without even reading what the other person is saying. thanks, dims On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 6:07 PM, Eran Chinthaka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Davanum Srinivas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chinthaka, What are the problems that will be created? Please enumerate them. How is it being handled / smoothed over now and what would change specifically to make the cooperation not happen. Problems : 1. Another member will have to waste time on doing PMC work 2. We will lose the tight dependency between Axis2 and related projects like Axiom, Neethi, Sandesha, etc., There are numerous things like this that will happen. If you can point your finger to specific scenarios. We can see if we can come up with specific solutions. (Say common svn area where both committers can have access). Let me back up. What is broken in the current layout that mandates us to go for different TLPs? Also, Don't mind me, i repeat my mantra for the n-th time again. Those who are actively working on a day to day basis should be taking the decisions. What we are doing is not working and i propose we try something new to see if it will work. My point is exactly this. Why do we waste time on going to fix something which is not broken? Let's get back to work ;) -- Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
It is nice to see everyone is fighting for something good :-) , Well first I do not think anyone in this mailing list is so stupid to give the PMC Chair or whatever based on the number of emails he sends to the list. Let me tell why I think it is a good idea to make Axis2 a TLP. First if you go back and look at the history why we wanted to make a Synapse a TLP ? (while it is heavily depend on Axis2 and Axiom ). But no one raised their concerns on dependent projects , simply no one talk anything like these their ,we as a community saw the advantages of making a synapse a TLP so we did that. As far as I understand from this thread , we should not have made synapse TLP , rather we should have created a new TLP called ESB and move synapse and other apache ESB projects into that. But we did not do that , why ? , To answer that just go and see the increase in number of download , and see the number of users. That is just two thing I see after making Synapse as TLP. I am happy I also +1 for making Synapse a TLP and it was a good decision. Actually I wanted to make Axis2 a TLP at the same time frame (when Dims was WS PMC chair). Second if you look at all the WS project mailings lists, you will realized more than 90% of the traffics on Axis2 projects. So you can not consider Axis2 as yet another project in Axis2 , rather that is the most active Web service projects in Apache-WS (because in Apache we have some other active Web service projects which are not belong to Apache-WS). Therefore staying inside WS does not make any sense for Axis2. I do not mind renaming WS in to Axis2 , practical speaking WS is Axis2 (not to hurt Axis1). Having said that it is not an issues whether we want to make other projects like Axiom , Neethi into TLPs if we are going to make Axis2 into TLP (as I mentioned earlier we did not discuss them when we move synapse into TLP). Since project like Rampart , Sandesha can not live without Axis2 , we should move them as subproject in Axis2 (if we agree to move as TLP). Talking about C stack , my answer would be Axis2 if would become a TLP , then Java and C version would be two main sub-projects of that (or we can make both of the TLP). For Dims , I am sorry I can not agree that with you that whoever working day to day basis should take the decision. That is totally against the open source development , theoretically open source developers will work on when they have free time (because no one is getting paid open source development , well now its bit different ). For example now I am (not only me all the initial developers) not working on day to day basis (you know why) , so just because that you can not tell me that I can not involve with decision process. Thank you for the reading very long mail. Deepal Chinthaka, What are the problems that will be created? Please enumerate them. How is it being handled / smoothed over now and what would change specifically to make the cooperation not happen. If you can point your finger to specific scenarios. We can see if we can come up with specific solutions. (Say common svn area where both committers can have access). Also, Don't mind me, i repeat my mantra for the n-th time again. Those who are actively working on a day to day basis should be taking the decisions. What we are doing is not working and i propose we try something new to see if it will work. thanks, dims On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Eran Chinthaka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 2:21 PM, Deepal jayasinghe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Eran Chinthaka wrote: I hope I'm still not late to comment on this. I'm also with Sanjiva on this issue. Axis2 is just not Axis2 project alone. Axiom and others are integral parts of it. Couple of challenges/questions from me. 1. Let's take the Glen's proposal on two projects and list down the developers in each project. Hehe , then what Apache should do is remove all the TLPs and their PMC's and list down developers in different projects :) I think you didn't get what I meant here. According to Glen's suggestion, Axiom and Axis2 will be on two different projects. What is the meaning of that if its the same people in both the groups. Also one more concern. I think Axis2/Java is more connected to Axiom than Axis2/C. So keeping Axis2/C and Axis2/Java in one project and leaving out Axiom makes no sense to me. Removing all the TLPs in Apache is not by any means analogous to that. The one idea of TLP is to build small communities and improve them , then automatically Apache as a whole will be improved. Nice quote Deepal. You have already started to become a philosopher ;) So is it worth doing this? I'm extremely sorry if I'm missing something, but still I can not see a compelling argument to move on to a new TLP. As I can see you looking at the problem in differently , its not about who is going to be the PMC chair , or
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Folks, this is *NOT* a VOTE thread. Please refrain from casting ballots thanks, dims On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 1:46 AM, Sanjiva Weerawarana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm -1 because the Axis2 project is not just axis2- its a collection of enabling pieces (axiom, neethi at least) and a bunch of up stream components (rampart, sandesha2, kandula2, wss4j etc.). So its really the web services project with an entire ws-* framework being covered by that. Calling the whole thing axis2 is not right as its not just about axis2. I would like to clearly identify components within the ws project that are retired or finished. These include (from what I know) scout, wsif, axis1, jaxme, kandula1, and sandesha1. However, as Nadra's message shows, there are parts of the axis1 family still alive and kicking. There are other projects that I think do not use axis1 or axis2 - for example juddi xmlrpc - that I think could go TLP on their own to reduce the size of ws. So I'm -1. However, Glen, what was the motivation for originating that thread? Is there something broken that needs to be fixed? IIRC Dims was always against splitting when he was PMC chair and I'd like to hear the reason for and against by both Glen and Dims too. Sanjiva. Davanum Srinivas wrote: Folks, There was a WS PMC thread which has not yet shown up here So, WDYT? Could we spin off Axis2 and related projects into a separate TLP? Pros / Cons / Thoughts welcome. thanks, dims -- Sanjiva Weerawarana, Ph.D. Founder Director; Lanka Software Foundation; http://www.opensource.lk/ Founder, Chairman CEO; WSO2, Inc.; http://www.wso2.com/ Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/ Visiting Lecturer; University of Moratuwa; http://www.cse.mrt.ac.lk/ Blog: http://sanjiva.weerawarana.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Gee...thanks a ton for the clarficiation. -- dims On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 7:18 AM, Sanjiva Weerawarana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeez I wasn't casting a vote - I expressed my opinion and then made it clear using the Apache terminology for expressing positions. Lighten up dude. Sanjiva. Davanum Srinivas wrote: Folks, this is *NOT* a VOTE thread. Please refrain from casting ballots thanks, dims On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 1:46 AM, Sanjiva Weerawarana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm -1 because the Axis2 project is not just axis2- its a collection of enabling pieces (axiom, neethi at least) and a bunch of up stream components (rampart, sandesha2, kandula2, wss4j etc.). So its really the web services project with an entire ws-* framework being covered by that. Calling the whole thing axis2 is not right as its not just about axis2. I would like to clearly identify components within the ws project that are retired or finished. These include (from what I know) scout, wsif, axis1, jaxme, kandula1, and sandesha1. However, as Nadra's message shows, there are parts of the axis1 family still alive and kicking. There are other projects that I think do not use axis1 or axis2 - for example juddi xmlrpc - that I think could go TLP on their own to reduce the size of ws. So I'm -1. However, Glen, what was the motivation for originating that thread? Is there something broken that needs to be fixed? IIRC Dims was always against splitting when he was PMC chair and I'd like to hear the reason for and against by both Glen and Dims too. Sanjiva. Davanum Srinivas wrote: Folks, There was a WS PMC thread which has not yet shown up here So, WDYT? Could we spin off Axis2 and related projects into a separate TLP? Pros / Cons / Thoughts welcome. thanks, dims -- Sanjiva Weerawarana, Ph.D. Founder Director; Lanka Software Foundation; http://www.opensource.lk/ Founder, Chairman CEO; WSO2, Inc.; http://www.wso2.com/ Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/ Visiting Lecturer; University of Moratuwa; http://www.cse.mrt.ac.lk/ Blog: http://sanjiva.weerawarana.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Sanjiva Weerawarana, Ph.D. Founder Director; Lanka Software Foundation; http://www.opensource.lk/ Founder, Chairman CEO; WSO2, Inc.; http://www.wso2.com/ Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/ Visiting Lecturer; University of Moratuwa; http://www.cse.mrt.ac.lk/ Blog: http://sanjiva.weerawarana.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Dear Team, For a few years now, there is a growing consensus at the board level that a small focused PMC that directly reports to the board is better than a huge umbrella PMCs. two umbrella PMC's have already made transitions including XML and Jakarta. One reason is that they have found that a small focused PMC/committer set takes better care of the code, web site, releases, legal issues and basic oversight of day to day workings of a PMC better than a huge umbrella PMC. For example, personally i think Synapse has thrived after it left the fold. Take a look at our web site(s), take a look at our release schedules(s) - for all projects, take a look at our bug tracker(s). Does anyone see that we are doing an excellent job? We need to gather momentum, going TLP is an excellent way to do that. A small focused team that is working on a single goal of getting a good set of Axis2 related projects going is i think the right way to go. I think the Axis2 eco system will do better when we go TLP. Personally, I'd really like to get all of us committed, willing and able to contribute in a much more coordinated fashion then we are today. We don't hang out on IRC, no weekly chats, not much forward looking discussions, not much enthusiasm or cooperation anymore from looking at the mailing lists. I am trying to see if we can jumpstart that as well with this proposal. fwiw, Juddi and xmlrpc do not have sufficient people on board to go TLP as of this moment. Yes, we should try harder to get more people involved there or we end up moth-balling them. thanks, dims On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 1:46 AM, Sanjiva Weerawarana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm -1 because the Axis2 project is not just axis2- its a collection of enabling pieces (axiom, neethi at least) and a bunch of up stream components (rampart, sandesha2, kandula2, wss4j etc.). So its really the web services project with an entire ws-* framework being covered by that. Calling the whole thing axis2 is not right as its not just about axis2. I would like to clearly identify components within the ws project that are retired or finished. These include (from what I know) scout, wsif, axis1, jaxme, kandula1, and sandesha1. However, as Nadra's message shows, there are parts of the axis1 family still alive and kicking. There are other projects that I think do not use axis1 or axis2 - for example juddi xmlrpc - that I think could go TLP on their own to reduce the size of ws. So I'm -1. However, Glen, what was the motivation for originating that thread? Is there something broken that needs to be fixed? IIRC Dims was always against splitting when he was PMC chair and I'd like to hear the reason for and against by both Glen and Dims too. Sanjiva. Davanum Srinivas wrote: Folks, There was a WS PMC thread which has not yet shown up here So, WDYT? Could we spin off Axis2 and related projects into a separate TLP? Pros / Cons / Thoughts welcome. thanks, dims -- Sanjiva Weerawarana, Ph.D. Founder Director; Lanka Software Foundation; http://www.opensource.lk/ Founder, Chairman CEO; WSO2, Inc.; http://www.wso2.com/ Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/ Visiting Lecturer; University of Moratuwa; http://www.cse.mrt.ac.lk/ Blog: http://sanjiva.weerawarana.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
One reason is that they have found that a small focused PMC/committer set takes better care of the code, web site, releases, legal issues and basic oversight of day to day workings of a PMC better than a huge umbrella PMC. For example, personally i think Synapse has thrived after it left the fold. I have to agree with Dims here , because at the moment WS is a very big project with a number of sub-projects. And WS consists of three main project as well , which is Apache SOAP , Axis1 and Axis2. Specially Axis1 and Axis2 has a number of sub projects as well. So managing them efficient manner is a challenging job , and specially for the PMC chair it is lot of work. Therefore it is always a good idea to modularize them. Take a look at our web site(s), take a look at our release schedules(s) - for all projects, take a look at our bug tracker(s). Does anyone see that we are doing an excellent job? I am sorry I do not understand what do you mean by bug tracker , is that the problem of number of issues or is it a problem of we are not taking care of them ? We need to gather momentum, going TLP is an excellent way to do that. A small focused team that is working on a single goal of getting a good set of Axis2 related projects going is i think the right way to go. I think the Axis2 eco system will do better when we go TLP. :) Personally, I'd really like to get all of us committed, willing and able to contribute in a much more coordinated fashion then we are today. We don't hang out on IRC, no weekly chats, not much forward looking discussions, not much enthusiasm or cooperation anymore from looking at the mailing lists. I am trying to see if we can jumpstart that as well with this proposal. Well part of the reason behind that is everyone is busy with their day to day work , for example when we start Axis2 we were fully focus on Axis2 . So it was so easy for us to do all those , but now we work on Axis2 and answer the mail when we get some free time. Anyway I agree that there are some improvements that we need to do. Thanks Deepal fwiw, Juddi and xmlrpc do not have sufficient people on board to go TLP as of this moment. Yes, we should try harder to get more people involved there or we end up moth-balling them. thanks, dims On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 1:46 AM, Sanjiva Weerawarana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm -1 because the Axis2 project is not just axis2- its a collection of enabling pieces (axiom, neethi at least) and a bunch of up stream components (rampart, sandesha2, kandula2, wss4j etc.). So its really the web services project with an entire ws-* framework being covered by that. Calling the whole thing axis2 is not right as its not just about axis2. I would like to clearly identify components within the ws project that are retired or finished. These include (from what I know) scout, wsif, axis1, jaxme, kandula1, and sandesha1. However, as Nadra's message shows, there are parts of the axis1 family still alive and kicking. There are other projects that I think do not use axis1 or axis2 - for example juddi xmlrpc - that I think could go TLP on their own to reduce the size of ws. So I'm -1. However, Glen, what was the motivation for originating that thread? Is there something broken that needs to be fixed? IIRC Dims was always against splitting when he was PMC chair and I'd like to hear the reason for and against by both Glen and Dims too. Sanjiva. Davanum Srinivas wrote: Folks, There was a WS PMC thread which has not yet shown up here So, WDYT? Could we spin off Axis2 and related projects into a separate TLP? Pros / Cons / Thoughts welcome. thanks, dims -- Sanjiva Weerawarana, Ph.D. Founder Director; Lanka Software Foundation; http://www.opensource.lk/ Founder, Chairman CEO; WSO2, Inc.; http://www.wso2.com/ Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/ Visiting Lecturer; University of Moratuwa; http://www.cse.mrt.ac.lk/ Blog: http://sanjiva.weerawarana.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Thank you! http://blogs.deepal.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Deepal jayasinghe wrote: Personally, I'd really like to get all of us committed, willing and able to contribute in a much more coordinated fashion then we are today. We don't hang out on IRC, no weekly chats, not much forward looking discussions, not much enthusiasm or cooperation anymore from looking at the mailing lists. I am trying to see if we can jumpstart that as well with this proposal. Well part of the reason behind that is everyone is busy with their day to day work , for example when we start Axis2 we were fully focus on Axis2 . So it was so easy for us to do all those , but now we work on Axis2 and answer the mail when we get some free time. Anyway I agree that there are some improvements that we need to do. Also the other reason IMO is that axis2 is mostly done .. I have no objection at all to someone starting an axis3 or doing a lot of changes to axis2, but I personally don't have major problems that I see need to be fixed in axis2. Yes there are tons of JIRAs and lots of small issues, but those don't warrant / motivate the types of weekly chats and architectural conversations that we had in the early days. IMO the kernel of a SOAP stack is mostly a solved problem now. I think even CXF is seeing that .. and you don't see people writing new soap stacks any more! Again, if someone has a cool idea for a radical innovation what would drive yet another order of magnitude improvement (or there abouts) then I'm all ears for it. I personally haven't seen the light on how to improve the core of Axis2 CXF any more at this point. That absolutely could change tomorrow, next week, next month or next year but not today, at least for me. I'm not talking about incremental changes but rather radical innovation - the type of thing that will grab people and get their creative juices flowing. IMO a lot of the work that's interesting is now going on around Axis2, not in the core of it. Example, writing new deployers that plug in more stuff, writing cool transports etc. etc. - those all hang around axis2 but that doesn't make axis2 itself really improve. Sanjiva. -- Sanjiva Weerawarana, Ph.D. Founder Director; Lanka Software Foundation; http://www.opensource.lk/ Founder, Chairman CEO; WSO2, Inc.; http://www.wso2.com/ Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/ Visiting Lecturer; University of Moratuwa; http://www.cse.mrt.ac.lk/ Blog: http://sanjiva.weerawarana.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Deepal, yep, not taking care of them is what i meant. Yep, i totally understand day-to-day work. thanks, dims On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 12:47 PM, Deepal jayasinghe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One reason is that they have found that a small focused PMC/committer set takes better care of the code, web site, releases, legal issues and basic oversight of day to day workings of a PMC better than a huge umbrella PMC. For example, personally i think Synapse has thrived after it left the fold. I have to agree with Dims here , because at the moment WS is a very big project with a number of sub-projects. And WS consists of three main project as well , which is Apache SOAP , Axis1 and Axis2. Specially Axis1 and Axis2 has a number of sub projects as well. So managing them efficient manner is a challenging job , and specially for the PMC chair it is lot of work. Therefore it is always a good idea to modularize them. Take a look at our web site(s), take a look at our release schedules(s) - for all projects, take a look at our bug tracker(s). Does anyone see that we are doing an excellent job? I am sorry I do not understand what do you mean by bug tracker , is that the problem of number of issues or is it a problem of we are not taking care of them ? We need to gather momentum, going TLP is an excellent way to do that. A small focused team that is working on a single goal of getting a good set of Axis2 related projects going is i think the right way to go. I think the Axis2 eco system will do better when we go TLP. :) Personally, I'd really like to get all of us committed, willing and able to contribute in a much more coordinated fashion then we are today. We don't hang out on IRC, no weekly chats, not much forward looking discussions, not much enthusiasm or cooperation anymore from looking at the mailing lists. I am trying to see if we can jumpstart that as well with this proposal. Well part of the reason behind that is everyone is busy with their day to day work , for example when we start Axis2 we were fully focus on Axis2 . So it was so easy for us to do all those , but now we work on Axis2 and answer the mail when we get some free time. Anyway I agree that there are some improvements that we need to do. Thanks Deepal fwiw, Juddi and xmlrpc do not have sufficient people on board to go TLP as of this moment. Yes, we should try harder to get more people involved there or we end up moth-balling them. thanks, dims On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 1:46 AM, Sanjiva Weerawarana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm -1 because the Axis2 project is not just axis2- its a collection of enabling pieces (axiom, neethi at least) and a bunch of up stream components (rampart, sandesha2, kandula2, wss4j etc.). So its really the web services project with an entire ws-* framework being covered by that. Calling the whole thing axis2 is not right as its not just about axis2. I would like to clearly identify components within the ws project that are retired or finished. These include (from what I know) scout, wsif, axis1, jaxme, kandula1, and sandesha1. However, as Nadra's message shows, there are parts of the axis1 family still alive and kicking. There are other projects that I think do not use axis1 or axis2 - for example juddi xmlrpc - that I think could go TLP on their own to reduce the size of ws. So I'm -1. However, Glen, what was the motivation for originating that thread? Is there something broken that needs to be fixed? IIRC Dims was always against splitting when he was PMC chair and I'd like to hear the reason for and against by both Glen and Dims too. Sanjiva. Davanum Srinivas wrote: Folks, There was a WS PMC thread which has not yet shown up here So, WDYT? Could we spin off Axis2 and related projects into a separate TLP? Pros / Cons / Thoughts welcome. thanks, dims -- Sanjiva Weerawarana, Ph.D. Founder Director; Lanka Software Foundation; http://www.opensource.lk/ Founder, Chairman CEO; WSO2, Inc.; http://www.wso2.com/ Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/ Visiting Lecturer; University of Moratuwa; http://www.cse.mrt.ac.lk/ Blog: http://sanjiva.weerawarana.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Thank you! http://blogs.deepal.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Hi dims, all: Davanum Srinivas wrote: For a few years now, there is a growing consensus at the board level that a small focused PMC that directly reports to the board is better than a huge umbrella PMCs. two umbrella PMC's have already made transitions including XML and Jakarta. +1. As PMC chair, I've definitely had a challenging time keeping up with everything going on in all the subprojects, and from a purely practical point of view, the board reports each quarter are pretty darn long. One reason is that they have found that a small focused PMC/committer set takes better care of the code, web site, releases, legal issues and basic oversight of day to day workings of a PMC better than a huge umbrella PMC. For example, personally i think Synapse has thrived after it left the fold. +1 Take a look at our web site(s), take a look at our release schedules(s) - for all projects, take a look at our bug tracker(s). Does anyone see that we are doing an excellent job? Point taken. We need to gather momentum, going TLP is an excellent way to do that. A small focused team that is working on a single goal of getting a good set of Axis2 related projects going is i think the right way to go. I think the Axis2 eco system will do better when we go TLP. I agree. Personally, I'd really like to get all of us committed, willing and able to contribute in a much more coordinated fashion then we are today. We don't hang out on IRC, no weekly chats, not much forward looking discussions, not much enthusiasm or cooperation anymore from looking at the mailing lists. I am trying to see if we can jumpstart that as well with this proposal. Well said! This was an excellent note, dims. I also very much believe that an Axis2 TLP will help get us focused on moving forward. fwiw, Juddi and xmlrpc do not have sufficient people on board to go TLP as of this moment. Yes, we should try harder to get more people involved there or we end up moth-balling them. Well, yeah - they're certainly not TLP-capable, but as they're already subprojects I'd like to put off the decision to moth-ball them for a while as long as there is at least one person dedicated to working on them... hence the proposal to keep these guys under WS. Thanks, --Glen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Hi Sanjiva: Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote: Also the other reason IMO is that axis2 is mostly done .. I have no objection at all to someone starting an axis3 or doing a lot of changes to axis2, but I personally don't have major problems that I see need to be fixed in axis2. Yes there are tons of JIRAs and lots of small issues, but those don't warrant / motivate the types of weekly chats and architectural conversations that we had in the early days. HTTPD has been around a lot longer than the WS project. Despite its bakedness, people routinely fix bugs, usability issues, submit patches, etc. The development community is often around on IRC. In short, it's an active and functional community around a live codebase. I think Axis2 is, honestly, far from done. And a bunch of the 515(!) JIRAs as of right now are real problems with either functionality or usability. We're not seeing these getting picked off on any kind of regular basis, so regardless of the TLP decision I think it's clear that the team as a whole needs to pay a little more attention to the project, and get that sense of active and functional community back. IMO a lot of the work that's interesting is now going on around Axis2, not in the core of it. Example, writing new deployers that plug in more stuff, writing cool transports etc. etc. - those all hang around axis2 but that doesn't make axis2 itself really improve. Two things here - first, I think that those kinds of things DO make Axis2 itself improve, because they often stretch the boundaries in ways that demonstrate blind spots or problems in the core (example - async transports and the core threading (or lack thereof) model). Second, you're exactly right that there is a lot of work going on around Axis2, which is why making it a TLP with Rampart, Sandesha, etc., as subprojects seems to make a lot of sense. Thanks, --Glen --Glen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Kurt T Stam wrote: jUDDI has 3 active developers working on implementing the UDDIv3 spec (http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/webservices/juddi/branches/v3_trunk/) . Please don't talk about moth-balling us! Just checking to see if you were paying attention. :) No way, Kurt - I hope to be using your stuff! Just to stave off concerns - we need to do a general review of the subprojects, but we will NOT drop actively developed codebases into the void. --Glen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
How does becoming a TLP change the status quo for getting things done? Sanjiva. Davanum Srinivas wrote: No one is asking that everyone needs to get excited at the proposal. If people are interested, let it move forward. If no one is interested, it will just drop dead. If people take this forward, they will decide what to do next when the TLP is formed, no one will be forced to sign up for work or need to get excited unnecessarily. In other words, Status Quo sucks! let's try something. If it works that's fine. If it doesn't there will be just another TLP. Hey we get one more guy to become a VP :) thanks, dims On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Sanjiva Weerawarana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Deepal jayasinghe wrote: Personally, I'd really like to get all of us committed, willing and able to contribute in a much more coordinated fashion then we are today. We don't hang out on IRC, no weekly chats, not much forward looking discussions, not much enthusiasm or cooperation anymore from looking at the mailing lists. I am trying to see if we can jumpstart that as well with this proposal. Well part of the reason behind that is everyone is busy with their day to day work , for example when we start Axis2 we were fully focus on Axis2 . So it was so easy for us to do all those , but now we work on Axis2 and answer the mail when we get some free time. Anyway I agree that there are some improvements that we need to do. Also the other reason IMO is that axis2 is mostly done .. I have no objection at all to someone starting an axis3 or doing a lot of changes to axis2, but I personally don't have major problems that I see need to be fixed in axis2. Yes there are tons of JIRAs and lots of small issues, but those don't warrant / motivate the types of weekly chats and architectural conversations that we had in the early days. IMO the kernel of a SOAP stack is mostly a solved problem now. I think even CXF is seeing that .. and you don't see people writing new soap stacks any more! Again, if someone has a cool idea for a radical innovation what would drive yet another order of magnitude improvement (or there abouts) then I'm all ears for it. I personally haven't seen the light on how to improve the core of Axis2 CXF any more at this point. That absolutely could change tomorrow, next week, next month or next year but not today, at least for me. I'm not talking about incremental changes but rather radical innovation - the type of thing that will grab people and get their creative juices flowing. IMO a lot of the work that's interesting is now going on around Axis2, not in the core of it. Example, writing new deployers that plug in more stuff, writing cool transports etc. etc. - those all hang around axis2 but that doesn't make axis2 itself really improve. Sanjiva. -- Sanjiva Weerawarana, Ph.D. Founder Director; Lanka Software Foundation; http://www.opensource.lk/ Founder, Chairman CEO; WSO2, Inc.; http://www.wso2.com/ Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/ Visiting Lecturer; University of Moratuwa; http://www.cse.mrt.ac.lk/ Blog: http://sanjiva.weerawarana.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Sanjiva Weerawarana, Ph.D. Founder Director; Lanka Software Foundation; http://www.opensource.lk/ Founder, Chairman CEO; WSO2, Inc.; http://www.wso2.com/ Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/ Visiting Lecturer; University of Moratuwa; http://www.cse.mrt.ac.lk/ Blog: http://sanjiva.weerawarana.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
If we can find people to man the PMC's and act as chair, sure, let's get more projects as TLP's. -- dims On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 4:30 PM, Sanjiva Weerawarana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Glen, so if you agree that its a TLP with Axis2 + up stream and downstream projects then why not push the other stuff from ws into their own TLPs? If we want to consider a new name for the ws project that's an option too but that's a different issue isn't it? Sanjiva. Glen Daniels wrote: Hi Sanjiva: Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote: Also the other reason IMO is that axis2 is mostly done .. I have no objection at all to someone starting an axis3 or doing a lot of changes to axis2, but I personally don't have major problems that I see need to be fixed in axis2. Yes there are tons of JIRAs and lots of small issues, but those don't warrant / motivate the types of weekly chats and architectural conversations that we had in the early days. HTTPD has been around a lot longer than the WS project. Despite its bakedness, people routinely fix bugs, usability issues, submit patches, etc. The development community is often around on IRC. In short, it's an active and functional community around a live codebase. I think Axis2 is, honestly, far from done. And a bunch of the 515(!) JIRAs as of right now are real problems with either functionality or usability. We're not seeing these getting picked off on any kind of regular basis, so regardless of the TLP decision I think it's clear that the team as a whole needs to pay a little more attention to the project, and get that sense of active and functional community back. IMO a lot of the work that's interesting is now going on around Axis2, not in the core of it. Example, writing new deployers that plug in more stuff, writing cool transports etc. etc. - those all hang around axis2 but that doesn't make axis2 itself really improve. Two things here - first, I think that those kinds of things DO make Axis2 itself improve, because they often stretch the boundaries in ways that demonstrate blind spots or problems in the core (example - async transports and the core threading (or lack thereof) model). Second, you're exactly right that there is a lot of work going on around Axis2, which is why making it a TLP with Rampart, Sandesha, etc., as subprojects seems to make a lot of sense. Thanks, --Glen --Glen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Sanjiva Weerawarana, Ph.D. Founder Director; Lanka Software Foundation; http://www.opensource.lk/ Founder, Chairman CEO; WSO2, Inc.; http://www.wso2.com/ Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/ Visiting Lecturer; University of Moratuwa; http://www.cse.mrt.ac.lk/ Blog: http://sanjiva.weerawarana.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Anything that is usable/shipped with Axis2 or depends on Axis2 IMHO. -- dims On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 4:32 PM, Sanjiva Weerawarana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So Glen, if we're talking about a new TLP what are the proposed components under it? What will remain in the ws TLP because they don't have enough ammo to be a TLP? Sanjiva. Glen Daniels wrote: Hi dims, all: Davanum Srinivas wrote: For a few years now, there is a growing consensus at the board level that a small focused PMC that directly reports to the board is better than a huge umbrella PMCs. two umbrella PMC's have already made transitions including XML and Jakarta. +1. As PMC chair, I've definitely had a challenging time keeping up with everything going on in all the subprojects, and from a purely practical point of view, the board reports each quarter are pretty darn long. One reason is that they have found that a small focused PMC/committer set takes better care of the code, web site, releases, legal issues and basic oversight of day to day workings of a PMC better than a huge umbrella PMC. For example, personally i think Synapse has thrived after it left the fold. +1 Take a look at our web site(s), take a look at our release schedules(s) - for all projects, take a look at our bug tracker(s). Does anyone see that we are doing an excellent job? Point taken. We need to gather momentum, going TLP is an excellent way to do that. A small focused team that is working on a single goal of getting a good set of Axis2 related projects going is i think the right way to go. I think the Axis2 eco system will do better when we go TLP. I agree. Personally, I'd really like to get all of us committed, willing and able to contribute in a much more coordinated fashion then we are today. We don't hang out on IRC, no weekly chats, not much forward looking discussions, not much enthusiasm or cooperation anymore from looking at the mailing lists. I am trying to see if we can jumpstart that as well with this proposal. Well said! This was an excellent note, dims. I also very much believe that an Axis2 TLP will help get us focused on moving forward. fwiw, Juddi and xmlrpc do not have sufficient people on board to go TLP as of this moment. Yes, we should try harder to get more people involved there or we end up moth-balling them. Well, yeah - they're certainly not TLP-capable, but as they're already subprojects I'd like to put off the decision to moth-ball them for a while as long as there is at least one person dedicated to working on them... hence the proposal to keep these guys under WS. Thanks, --Glen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Sanjiva Weerawarana, Ph.D. Founder Director; Lanka Software Foundation; http://www.opensource.lk/ Founder, Chairman CEO; WSO2, Inc.; http://www.wso2.com/ Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/ Visiting Lecturer; University of Moratuwa; http://www.cse.mrt.ac.lk/ Blog: http://sanjiva.weerawarana.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Hey dims, all: Davanum Srinivas wrote: There was a WS PMC thread which has not yet shown up here So, WDYT? Could we spin off Axis2 and related projects into a separate TLP? Pros / Cons / Thoughts welcome. I'm +1 to the idea. Here's what I sent to the PMC after this idea came up as a result of our last board report: From my POV, it's a bit of a tossup. On the one hand, there are clearly a lot of sub-projects under the WS umbrella, and it would make for a lot less complexity if we split some of them out. On the other, there is a fairly large cluster of the projects that really do need to maintain a pretty tight coupling, so having a single place they can all exchange information is kind of nice too. I think we can achieve both goals with something like this: * Axis2 - becomes a TLP for both Java and C versions, with Axis2-specific components underneath as subprojects. So Rampart, Sandesha, Savan, Kandula * Axis1 basically gets retired, with questions still answerable on axis-dev/user. * There are a few common libraries (used both inside and outside Axis2) like Axiom and WSS4J that still need a place to live, not to mention the other projects like Scout, JAX-RPC, and JUDDI. I'd suggest those stay in WS for now, but perhaps get rid of the commons idea and upline Axiom, Neethi, etc. to subprojects instead of sub-subprojects. :) What do people think of that layout? If we want to make this happen, I can draft up the necessary board resolutions. Thanks, --Glen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[DISCUSS] Axis2 as TLP
Folks, There was a WS PMC thread which has not yet shown up here So, WDYT? Could we spin off Axis2 and related projects into a separate TLP? Pros / Cons / Thoughts welcome. thanks, dims -- Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
