Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo's problems
On Fri, 2007-03-16 at 00:50 +, Steve Long wrote: > Jakob Buchgraber wrote: > > So I just think something has to be changed e.g. making paludis an > > official gentoo project and mentioning it in the docs, but keep portage > > as the default pm. > > If portage can't get improved, then people have to get informed that > > there is a better alternative, because I know a lot of Gentoo users > > having never heard about paludis and I also didn't know that it even > > exists until a month ago. > > > You (and others) should also be made aware of pkgcore then as it might turn > out from these discussions that ciaran's future contributions will not be > allowed in gentoo (unless i'm missing something.) In which case, I have no You're missing something. Notice that the Council did *not* agree to banning contributions from people, only possibly removing them from the discussion mediums due to their behavior. We are trying to fix people's behaviors, not remove them as possible contributors. For one, it would be very hard to accomplish and would require, in my opinion, too much work for the perceived benefit we would gain. > http://www.pkgcore.org/ if you want to see the other other package manager, > written by one of the (core?) portage devs. Apparently it's where a ex-portage devs (just to clarify) -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo's problems
On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 08:41:50 + Steve Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > IMO ciaran has definitely been trolling this list and it's doing my > head in. Is there anyone else who feels the same, strongly enough to > risk his ire? If you think Ciaran is trolling, just ignore him. Be part of the solution, not the part of the problem. -- Kevin F. Quinn signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo's problems
On 16/03/07, Steve Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Mauricio Lima Pilla wrote: > We are always ready to listen to feedback and constructive criticism, but > your constant trolling against the forums can't be classified as such. > IMO ciaran has definitely been trolling this list and it's doing my head in. Is there anyone else who feels the same, strongly enough to risk his ire? -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list From what I've seen of the recent blather I can say I'm sorry Daniel Robbins is the one who took off. Jeff -- Q: What will happen in the Aftermath? A: Impossible to tell, since we're still in the Beforemath. http://latedeveloper.org.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo's problems
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Steve Long wrote: > Mauricio Lima Pilla wrote: >> We are always ready to listen to feedback and constructive criticism, but >> your constant trolling against the forums can't be classified as such. >> > IMO ciaran has definitely been trolling this list and it's doing my head in. > Is there anyone else who feels the same, strongly enough to risk his ire? Steve Long, please stop your trolling. Steve Long wrote: > Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > > There's a difference between UI improvements like FEATURES=candy and UI > > improvements like ability to do dependency-based uninstalls (merely one > > example). UI improvements that improve user experience substantially > > are fine. Minor UI improvements are good too, but not when they're > > being touted as significant achievements. > > > Oh ffs, why don't you stop all this negativity, and post some algorithms for > once? Ciaran is working on a replacement, so this comment makes no sense. Please stop your incessant trolling. Marijn -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF+me8p/VmCx0OL2wRAh8wAJ9b56ol4Tv1YUaY49zVgOahYJcH6wCgj0aI OzUGR3E07+zb4oADHlub1PE= =sUkH -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo's problems
Steve Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> posted [EMAIL PROTECTED], excerpted below, on Fri, 16 Mar 2007 08:41:50 +: > Mauricio Lima Pilla wrote: >> We are always ready to listen to feedback and constructive criticism, >> but your constant trolling against the forums can't be classified as >> such. >> > IMO ciaran has definitely been trolling this list and it's doing my head > in. Is there anyone else who feels the same, strongly enough to risk his > ire? That may or may not be, but I don't believe the list is the place to debate it. If you believe anyone (in the generic, let's not name names here) is trolling, mail the proctors (or in the mean time, kloeri or kingtaco, who are setting up the initial proctor list, see the Summary for 15 March 2007 special council meeting on CoC thread). Here isn't the appropriate place to discuss it. I of course have an opinion and am tempted to post it, but shall restrain, because as I said, it's inappropriate here. -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo's problems
Mauricio Lima Pilla wrote: > We are always ready to listen to feedback and constructive criticism, but > your constant trolling against the forums can't be classified as such. > IMO ciaran has definitely been trolling this list and it's doing my head in. Is there anyone else who feels the same, strongly enough to risk his ire? -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo's problems
Jakob Buchgraber wrote: > So I just think something has to be changed e.g. making paludis an > official gentoo project and mentioning it in the docs, but keep portage > as the default pm. > If portage can't get improved, then people have to get informed that > there is a better alternative, because I know a lot of Gentoo users > having never heard about paludis and I also didn't know that it even > exists until a month ago. > You (and others) should also be made aware of pkgcore then as it might turn out from these discussions that ciaran's future contributions will not be allowed in gentoo (unless i'm missing something.) In which case, I have no doubt he'll fork, although I hope it doesn't come to that. (And I still believe that situation can be avoided, with work. It shouldn't be happening on here tho.) I have no personal experience of using either. It would be insulting of me to pretend that i have no personal feelings as to which dev team i prefer tho, although i continue to have sympathy for ciaran's feelings here. I think he has been ill-treated in the past, but that's where it should stay. http://www.pkgcore.org/ if you want to see the other other package manager, written by one of the (core?) portage devs. Apparently it's where a significant percentage of the improvements to portage have started out. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo's problems
On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 17:42:17 + Steve Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > My understanding was that the portage team can't move forward with a > new version until EAPI0 is done? They can't move forward with changes that break ebuild compatibility until EAPI-0 is documented and EAPI-1 can start to be defined. That's not to say that user-side changes which don't affect the ebuild interface can't happen. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo's problems
On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 17:42:17 + Steve Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Alec Warner wrote: > > Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > >> * Portage. > > Portage is being incrementally improved. > My understanding was that the portage team can't move forward with a > new version until EAPI0 is done? Entirely untrue. Even if it were true for ebuilds (which it isn't), there are hundreds of improvements that could (code problems aside...) be made to Portage's user interface that are entirely independent of ebuilds. -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail: ciaranm at ciaranm.org Web : http://ciaranm.org/ Paludis, the secure package manager : http://paludis.pioto.org/ signature.asc Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo's problems
Alec Warner wrote: > Ciaran McCreesh wrote: >> * Portage. > Portage is being incrementally improved. My understanding was that the portage team can't move forward with a new version until EAPI0 is done? > I also think either you are ignoring the changes or you are just unaware > of things that the portage team (aka Zac for the most part ;)) has been > working on. Many of these things are internal behind the scenes changes > and they don't require any user-level modification. Well having had to deal with emerge at a far more intimate level than I ever wanted to (she forced me, your honour ;) I've definitely seen the improvements. Especially once I started running it ~x86 to see the latest tested changes. >> * Low QA expectations. > I can agree with parts of your statement. Particularly the expectations > are not set out anywhere (not even by the QA team). There are no > metrics, no data; it does not surprise me when QA is lax. Blimey. Metrics are *easy*- computers spit out stuff all the time. The harder part is filtering. What metrics are needed? I could have a counterargument and say that you refuse to accept what > the real problem is and instead blame the portage developers and the set > of developers with poor QA habits; aka I think this is a bad argument > because one would have to agree on the problems to acknowledge them. > ++antarus. > I think many people believe your involvement is a big problem and that > is unfortunate; however the fact that you seem to continue in the same > mannerisms without acknowledging that maybe you actually have negative > social impact here...I think that is a bit hypocritical. If projects > within Gentoo can make an attempt to evaluate themselves and their > affects on this mess; I think one person can do the same. > Look at the soul-searching seemant did on his blog; it really helped me after i came over all `emotional' recently. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo's problems
On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 17:30:01 + Steve Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > > Which, even if it were true, is besides the point if doing so > > prevents any development from getting done. And just how much > > development gets done on the forums? > > > No development gets done on here either. Discussion does. Development > happens when people aren't getting drawn into long flames about the > distro they use, which only clog up peoples' inboxes. No no, development really does happen on this list. It's kind of hard to see amongst all the noise from uninformed 'contributors', but it does happen. > Are you suggesting a dev forum on forums.gentoo.org? If you are, you > got my vote, especially if all the socio-political talk goes on there. There is / was one. It was almost entirely unused. -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail: ciaranm at ciaranm.org Web : http://ciaranm.org/ Paludis, the secure package manager : http://paludis.pioto.org/ signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo's problems
On 15/03/07, Steve Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > No development gets done on here either. Discussion does. Development happens when people aren't getting drawn into long flames about the distro they use, which only clog up peoples' inboxes. Are you suggesting a dev forum on forums.gentoo.org? If you are, you got my vote, especially if all the socio-political talk goes on there. BTW *none* of my code happens when I'm interfacing with an organic ;) Well said sir. Jeff -- Q: What will happen in the Aftermath? A: Impossible to tell, since we're still in the Beforemath. http://latedeveloper.org.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo's problems
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > Which, even if it were true, is besides the point if doing so prevents > any development from getting done. And just how much development gets > done on the forums? > No development gets done on here either. Discussion does. Development happens when people aren't getting drawn into long flames about the distro they use, which only clog up peoples' inboxes. Are you suggesting a dev forum on forums.gentoo.org? If you are, you got my vote, especially if all the socio-political talk goes on there. BTW *none* of my code happens when I'm interfacing with an organic ;) -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo's problems
Warwick Bruce Chapman wrote: > I'm not sure that differs much from the meaning I interpreted from > Ciaran's point. I read antarus' point as: without a happy dev community you won't achieve a quality distro. Ciaran seems to be saying you can, and *then* everyone will be happy. That sounds like Alice in Wonderland to me, as by the time you've made anything worthwhile you won't have any sane and happy devs left. Maybe he means we already have a quality distro, so a little angst isn't going to hurt? In any event, we're all standing on the shoulders of giants, so arrogance definitely isn't justifiable (if ever it could be ;) -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo's problems
George Prowse wrote: > Caleb Cushing wrote: >> How about the speed of search's? the speed of resolving dependancy's? >> how about the speed that it takes to calculate a dependancy listing >> after you've already done it once? portage is SLOW. > So speed... > Re: speed of searches, try qsearch from portage-utils. (man q) The major bugbear I always had was the cache update on sync. So I groused about in #gentoo-portage and zmedico pointed me to FEATURES="-metadata-transfer" As someone else said to me it's in man portage. (You need to erase your /var/cache/edb) I'd only ever run man emerge, and suddenly found out a whole new load of stuff! Only prob I've run into is kuroo can't deal with it. As for dependency resolution I've been running portage like a dog to develop that script, and I've never really got bothered by it (although I used to when I wasn't enjoying running emerge.) And it *is* faster if you do it more than once. (I only have a 1.67GHz Athlon-XP with 512Mb so it's not like I'm running the fastest machine out there. I installed a dual-Opteron with 2G for someone and it was nothing.) The compile time is much worse than the dep-resol'n. In terms of interface the thing that really got me was failures when running long emerges, and the compiler output meaning I missed important messages, as I got so used to tons of output on my screen. That's what the script is for, and since I've been using that, gentoo is absolutely perfect. So it's command line. So what, it's a doddle to use Kommander if I were bothered. All I need now is to beg some of solar's bin-handling stuff, as from what i've seen, that will be the next big thing for gentoo. It'll certainly make my life easier :D -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
