Re: [gentoo-user] USB mass storage help

2005-04-05 Thread Neil Bothwick
On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 06:39:46 -0400, David D. Rea wrote:

 I'm trying to get my new Canon 20D to talk to my Gentoo box, but so far
 no luck getting the mass storage device driver to see it:

The Canon 300D and A75 don't present themselves as mass storage devices,
so I doubt the 20D does either. You can access it with gphoto, or by using
camera:/ in Konqueror, but not as a block device.

Personally, I prefer to use a card reader. A USB 2.0 reader is MUCH faster
than the camera (even my old 1.1 reader was faster than the camera) and
doesn't drain the camera's battery.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

DCE seeks DTE for mutual exchange of data.


pgpSUcS6bkEky.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: [gentoo-user] USB mass storage help

2005-04-05 Thread David D. Rea
On Tue, 2005-04-05 at 11:54 +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote:
 The Canon 300D and A75 don't present themselves as mass storage devices,
 so I doubt the 20D does either. You can access it with gphoto, or by using
 camera:/ in Konqueror, but not as a block device.
 
 Personally, I prefer to use a card reader. A USB 2.0 reader is MUCH faster
 than the camera (even my old 1.1 reader was faster than the camera) and
 doesn't drain the camera's battery.

OK, sorry for the list noise - you confirmed a suspicion that I had
after subsequently trying the camera on my windows box and getting
nowhere just as quickly.

I dug my reader out of the trash this morning as a last-resort, and I'll
see if I can snag something a little more reliable from work. I prefer
using the reader as well, as it's faster and more convenient.

Just needed something for the short term, until I can get a CF card
reader that doesn't have a history of hosing CF cards!

Thanks
Dave

--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list



Re: [gentoo-user] USB mass storage help

2005-04-05 Thread Neil Bothwick
On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 07:03:57 -0400, David D. Rea wrote:

 Just needed something for the short term, until I can get a CF card
 reader that doesn't have a history of hosing CF cards!

Use gphoto, Digikam (my preference) or Konqueror.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Few women admit their age. Few men act theirs.


pgpXPrRsdjfeI.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: [gentoo-user] USB mass storage help

2005-04-05 Thread Sarpy Sam
On Apr 5, 2005 5:22 AM, Neil Bothwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 07:03:57 -0400, David D. Rea wrote:
 
  Just needed something for the short term, until I can get a CF card
  reader that doesn't have a history of hosing CF cards!
 
 Use gphoto, Digikam (my preference) or Konqueror.
 
The Canon 20D is not supported by the present stable version of
Gphoto2 2.1.4.  It is supported by the gphoto2 2.1.5 but it isn't
marked as stable yet in portage for ~x86.   Does anybody know what the
problem is that it isn't marked stable yet?

Kirby Walborn
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list



Re: [gentoo-user] USB mass storage help

2005-04-05 Thread Neil Bothwick
On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 05:34:10 -0600, Sarpy Sam wrote:

 The Canon 20D is not supported by the present stable version of
 Gphoto2 2.1.4.  It is supported by the gphoto2 2.1.5 but it isn't
 marked as stable yet in portage for ~x86.   Does anybody know what the
 problem is that it isn't marked stable yet?

I've had no problems with 2.1.5. ~arch only means that the ebuild is still
in testing, it has nothing to do with the stability of the software.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Just when you got it all figured out:  An UPGRADE!


pgpWU9Fi3U4Yl.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: [gentoo-user] USB mass storage ?

2003-10-03 Thread gabor
On Thu, 2003-10-02 at 15:53, Ernie Schroder wrote:
 I have USB mass storage set up and working pretty much as expected 
 other than one rather perplexing problem. If I unmount either my 
 digital camera or my smart card reader, remove the media and then 
 replace it I cannot remount the device

happens the same with my camera.

what i do is:
rmmod usb-storage
modprobe usb-storage

and then it works again.
(it's possible that i'm remembering it wrong, and it's a different *usb*
module that you have to reload)

gabor


--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list



Re: [gentoo-user] USB mass storage ?

2003-10-03 Thread William Kenworthy
Same here.  The other method is just wait awhile and it clears - this is
related to removing unused kernel modules from memory, so your basicly
doing the same thing manually.

BillK

On Fri, 2003-11-14 at 04:46, gabor wrote:
 On Thu, 2003-10-02 at 15:53, Ernie Schroder wrote:
  I have USB mass storage set up and working pretty much as expected 
  other than one rather perplexing problem. If I unmount either my 
  digital camera or my smart card reader, remove the media and then 
  replace it I cannot remount the device
 
 happens the same with my camera.
 
 what i do is:
 rmmod usb-storage
 modprobe usb-storage
 
 and then it works again.
 (it's possible that i'm remembering it wrong, and it's a different *usb*
 module that you have to reload)
 
 gabor
 
 
 --
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
-- 
William Kenworthy [EMAIL PROTECTED]


--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list



Re: [gentoo-user] USB mass storage ?

2003-10-02 Thread Patrick Marquetecken
I had also no problem with my digital camera (USB2) until i used
gentoo-sources-r7, from then i can mount, but if i go into any dirs my
machine compleetly hangs. But with USB-mass drives no problems. it seems
only with vfat.

Patrick

Op do 02-10-2003, om 15:53 schreef Ernie Schroder:
 I have USB mass storage set up and working pretty much as expected 
 other than one rather perplexing problem. If I unmount either my 
 digital camera or my smart card reader, remove the media and then 
 replace it I cannot remount the device.If, and only after, I unplug 
 and replug the camera or reader, and do:
 
 $ sudo fdisk -l /dev/sda1
 
 which will print out partition info, I can then mount the device 
 normally. Does anyone have an idea?
 the only odd thing with my setup is that I have a symlink from 
 /mnt/flash to /home/USERNAME/mnt/flash
 
 $ mount
 (when the device is mounted shows:
 
 none on /proc/bus/usb type usbfs (rw)
 /dev/sda1 on /mnt/flash type vfat (rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev,user=ernie)
  and when unmounted, shows:
 
 none on /proc/bus/usb type usbfs (rw)
 
 This only seems to happen if the device has been unmounted for 10 
 minutes or longer.
-- 
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. 
Captain Spock in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan

PGP Key: http://users.pandora.be/rivendell/marquetp.gpg
Fingerprint = 2792 057F C445 9486 F932 3AEA D3A3 1B0C 1059 273B
ICQ# 316932703 
Registered Linux User #44550
http://counter.li.org


signature.asc
Description: Dit berichtdeel is digitaal ondertekend


Re: [gentoo-user] usb mass storage

2003-08-21 Thread Klaus-Uwe Kempa
Pupeno wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On Friday 15 August 2003 04:35, Klaus-Uwe Kempa wrote:
 

David H. Askew wrote:
   

it wouldn't show up as /dev/sgX or something like that .. i'm not that
familiar with the psuedo scsi stuff
 

Check /etc/fstab. Ihave

usbfs  /proc/bus/usb   usbfsrw,devmode=0660,devgid=432   0 0
   

I don't have it in my vfat, but it still mounts it:
# mount | grep usb
none on /proc/bus/usb type usbfs (rw)
 

I think it does not mount because I get after #mount:

usbfs on /proc/bus/usb type usbfs (rw)
/dev/sdb1 on /mnt/usbHD type vfat (rw,nodev,uid=1000,gid=105).
Why do You not change fstab?

--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list


Re: [gentoo-user] usb mass storage

2003-08-21 Thread Pupeno
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Thursday 21 August 2003 08:23, Klaus-Uwe Kempa wrote:
 I don't have it in my vfat, but it still mounts it:
Here I meant fstab, not vfat (this problem really got my nerves ;)

 # mount | grep usb
 none on /proc/bus/usb type usbfs (rw)

 I think it does not mount because I get after #mount:

 usbfs on /proc/bus/usb type usbfs (rw)
 /dev/sdb1 on /mnt/usbHD type vfat (rw,nodev,uid=1000,gid=105).

 Why do You not change fstab?
Do you mean that the fact that mine says none where yours says usbfs makes 
mine not work and that adding the fstab line would solve it ?
I'll try it then.
Thank you.
- -- 
Pupeno: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.kde.org
- ---
Help the hungry children of Argentina,
please go to (and make it your homepage):
http://www.porloschicos.com/servlet/PorLosChicos?comando=donar
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQE/RNMvLr8z5XzmSDQRAqqTAKC0otWTonvyB1/Kkq53DNprmFqaGgCg0/Ms
gLB+wsKUqZqlcKVF8YhYZdk=
=UQXB
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list



Re: [gentoo-user] usb mass storage

2003-08-21 Thread Andrew Gaffney
Pupeno wrote:
usbfs on /proc/bus/usb type usbfs (rw)
/dev/sdb1 on /mnt/usbHD type vfat (rw,nodev,uid=1000,gid=105).
Why do You not change fstab?
Do you mean that the fact that mine says none where yours says usbfs makes 
mine not work and that adding the fstab line would solve it ?
I'll try it then.
Thank you.
With virtual filesystems like devfs, usbfs, etc., the device to mount 
does not matter. I believe it just ignores it completely. I always use 
'none' as the device to mount so as not to confuse it with the fs type 
is the fstab.

--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list


--
Andrew Gaffney
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list


Re: [gentoo-user] usb mass storage

2003-08-20 Thread Pupeno
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Friday 15 August 2003 04:35, Klaus-Uwe Kempa wrote:
 David H. Askew wrote:
 it wouldn't show up as /dev/sgX or something like that .. i'm not that
 familiar with the psuedo scsi stuff

 Check /etc/fstab. Ihave

 usbfs  /proc/bus/usb   usbfsrw,devmode=0660,devgid=432   0 0
I don't have it in my vfat, but it still mounts it:
# mount | grep usb
none on /proc/bus/usb type usbfs (rw)

 /dev/sdb1  /mnt/usbHD vfat rw,uid=klaus,nodev,exec,noauto,async  0 0

 and it works fine (klaus is the main user). If You have not another scsi
 device,
 /dev/sda1 would do it. It was a great problem for me until I read an
 article from
  Juergen Schmidt/ Axel Vahldiek in c't 13/2003 pp208. As su You can
 check with
fdisk -l /dev/sda
fdisk -l /dev/sdb
...
 what is the proper device type.
It still doesn't appear as a scsi device to be accessed, this worked without 
problem in Ark Linux :(
- -- 
Pupeno: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.kde.org
- ---
Help the hungry children of Argentina,
please go to (and make it your homepage):
http://www.porloschicos.com/servlet/PorLosChicos?comando=donar
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQE/Q5qKLr8z5XzmSDQRAtqEAJ9Ko17GpTo+shSegXX+zoi/2IsNsQCfa8Sw
rjgMwxYPGTmuhDKiEo6fBIA=
=8AZ/
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list



Re: [gentoo-user] usb mass storage

2003-08-14 Thread David H. Askew
It sounds like the device is recognized as a mass storage device, but
perhaps you are missing a low level driver ?  If this is the same kernel
version you used under ark linux .. then I would

cd /usr/src/linux
make menuconfig
..look in the usb section and investigate the low level devices enabled
under mass storage..

hope this helps

On Thu, 2003-08-14 at 18:05, Pupeno wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 Hello Gentoo users,
 I have a Sony DSC-U20 (digital still camera) that works as mass storage.
 In another distro (ark linux) just loading sd_mod and usb-storage and then 
 pluging the camer was enough to get /dev/sda0 and mounting it allowed me to 
 get the files.
 But when I plug it in Gentoo I get:
 Aug 14 20:02:03 lab kernel: hub.c: new USB device 00:02.1-1, assigned address 
 4
 Aug 14 20:02:03 lab kernel: usb.c: USB device 4 (vend/prod 0x54c/0x10) is not 
 claimed by any active driver.
 Aug 14 20:02:06 lab usb.agent: ... no modules for USB product 54c/10/430
 and /dev/sda0 never appears.
 Any idea ?
 
 Thank you.
 - -- 
 Pupeno: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.kde.org
 - ---
 Help the hungry children of Argentina,
 please go to (and make it your homepage):
 http://www.porloschicos.com/servlet/PorLosChicos?comando=donar
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
 Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
 
 iD8DBQE/PBW5Lr8z5XzmSDQRAnD2AKC2/hGCq9ZwvEoSziLkTiTLC8/b9QCfcyBa
 iaPNibXOGcCeW13SnVxkhXY=
 =9Hkp
 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
 
 
 --
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
-- 
How many Microsoft engineers does it take to change a light bulb ?

Answer : None, they just declare darkness a new standard. 



signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part


Re: [gentoo-user] usb mass storage

2003-08-14 Thread Pupeno
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Thursday 14 August 2003 23:10, David H. Askew wrote:
 It sounds like the device is recognized as a mass storage device, but
 perhaps you are missing a low level driver ?  If this is the same kernel
 version you used under ark linux .. then I would
I don't remember exactly... it as .20 or .21 (pre or something).

 cd /usr/src/linux
 make menuconfig
 ..look in the usb section and investigate the low level devices enabled
 under mass storage..
In the usb section I don't see anything related to low level devices or mass 
storage... :( where exactly is it ?

thanks.
- -- 
Pupeno: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.kde.org
- ---
Help the hungry children of Argentina,
please go to (and make it your homepage):
http://www.porloschicos.com/servlet/PorLosChicos?comando=donar
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQE/PB18Lr8z5XzmSDQRAjEjAKDO0+qWJebpiRdP9tCcZqV8Iams8QCeOAhB
tdUoyriJxMIbexoxgBqKbO0=
=A98T
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list



Re: [gentoo-user] usb mass storage

2003-08-14 Thread Pupeno
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Thursday 14 August 2003 23:37, bob bob wrote:
 Just check also that its not showing up as /dev/sda1/ I think thats what my
 USB key shows up as..
I don't have any /dev/sd*:
# ls /dev/sd*
ls: /dev/sd*: No such file or directory

Thanks.
- -- 
Pupeno: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.kde.org
- ---
Help the hungry children of Argentina,
please go to (and make it your homepage):
http://www.porloschicos.com/servlet/PorLosChicos?comando=donar
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQE/PB7RLr8z5XzmSDQRAhuRAJ9vP8uKARpXkBD7igOxHhgmHFQhpACgl2Z0
qQQnO4jp4v6wXrQtsi1j0rI=
=jW6v
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list



Re: [gentoo-user] usb mass storage

2003-08-14 Thread David H. Askew
it wouldn't show up as /dev/sgX or something like that .. i'm not that
familiar with the psuedo scsi stuff

On Thu, 2003-08-14 at 18:44, Pupeno wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 On Thursday 14 August 2003 23:37, bob bob wrote:
  Just check also that its not showing up as /dev/sda1/ I think thats what my
  USB key shows up as..
 I don't have any /dev/sd*:
 # ls /dev/sd*
 ls: /dev/sd*: No such file or directory
 
 Thanks.
 - -- 
 Pupeno: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.kde.org
 - ---
 Help the hungry children of Argentina,
 please go to (and make it your homepage):
 http://www.porloschicos.com/servlet/PorLosChicos?comando=donar
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
 Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
 
 iD8DBQE/PB7RLr8z5XzmSDQRAhuRAJ9vP8uKARpXkBD7igOxHhgmHFQhpACgl2Z0
 qQQnO4jp4v6wXrQtsi1j0rI=
 =jW6v
 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
 
 
 --
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
-- 
How many Microsoft engineers does it take to change a light bulb ?

Answer : None, they just declare darkness a new standard. 



signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part


Re: [gentoo-user] usb mass storage

2003-08-14 Thread David H. Askew
that was intended to sound like a question/ramble

On Thu, 2003-08-14 at 22:27, David H. Askew wrote:
 it wouldn't show up as /dev/sgX or something like that .. i'm not that
 familiar with the psuedo scsi stuff
 
 On Thu, 2003-08-14 at 18:44, Pupeno wrote:
  -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
  Hash: SHA1
  
  On Thursday 14 August 2003 23:37, bob bob wrote:
   Just check also that its not showing up as /dev/sda1/ I think thats what my
   USB key shows up as..
  I don't have any /dev/sd*:
  # ls /dev/sd*
  ls: /dev/sd*: No such file or directory
  
  Thanks.
  - -- 
  Pupeno: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  http://www.kde.org
  - ---
  Help the hungry children of Argentina,
  please go to (and make it your homepage):
  http://www.porloschicos.com/servlet/PorLosChicos?comando=donar
  -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
  Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
  
  iD8DBQE/PB7RLr8z5XzmSDQRAhuRAJ9vP8uKARpXkBD7igOxHhgmHFQhpACgl2Z0
  qQQnO4jp4v6wXrQtsi1j0rI=
  =jW6v
  -END PGP SIGNATURE-
  
  
  --
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
-- 
How many Microsoft engineers does it take to change a light bulb ?

Answer : None, they just declare darkness a new standard. 



signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part


Re: [gentoo-user] USB Mass Storage Device

2003-06-05 Thread D.J. Bolderman
On wo, 04 jun 2003, Paulo J. Matos wrote:

 I bought an USB MemoryBird from Fujitsu Siemens. Is that supported under
 Gentoo Linux? I've never heard anything about these devices. Any
 references or experiences?

Don't have any experience with it, but I think it will just work. Just
plug it in, and watch your log for usb messages. Then, add a line to
your fstab to mount it (vfat filesystem). My digital camera with
memory stick works this way.

--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list



Re: [gentoo-user] USB Mass Storage Device

2003-06-05 Thread Arturo di Gioia
On Wed, 2003-06-04 at 16:07, Paulo J. Matos wrote:
 Hi all,
 
 I bought an USB MemoryBird from Fujitsu Siemens. Is that supported under
 Gentoo Linux? I've never heard anything about these devices. Any
 references or experiences?
 

It's probably supported. You must turn on in kernel configuration 'USB
mass storage support' (and eventually USB suppport if you haven't
already done that). You could also turn on 'Preliminary USB device
support' so that you can see if your device is recognized  (look in 
/proc/usb or use the 'usbview' app).
Then you have to mount the partition on your USB device with something
like

/dev/sda1   /mnt/flash   auto   defaults,user,noauto   0 0

in /etc/fstab (the USB partition is seen as a SCSI disk partition). 


-- 
Arturo di Gioia [EMAIL PROTECTED]


--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list



Re: [gentoo-user] USB Mass Storage Device

2003-06-05 Thread Dan Fairs
 memory stick works this way.

As does my Archos MP3 recorder (through various USB-SCSI shenanigans).
Though I do get the occasional lockup, and USB2 transfer sometimes slows
to a crawl. Can anyone shed any light on this? I do have the ISD-200
driver compiled into my kernel. There are no suspicious log messages
before lockups, annoyingly...

Cheers,
Dan

-- 
Dan Fairs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
spiderplant.net


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part


RE: [gentoo-user] USB Mass Storage

2003-03-30 Thread Gwendolyn van der Linden
   hub.c: new USB device 00:02.0-2, assigned address 5
   usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout
   usb.c: USB device not responding, giving up (error=-110)
   hub.c: new USB device 00:02.0-2, assigned address 6
   usb.c: USB device not accepting new address=6 (error=-110)

 IIRC you need the SCSI modules available.  Do you?

Yes I do.  This is an intermittent problem, so I do now it works OK at
least some of the times...

It seems that my newly compiled vanilla 2.4.20 is doing much better.
The above problem happened on 2.4.19.  I also started using an ext3
partition on the USB harddisk, and that seems to be much more robust
when things go wrong.  I have lost a large directory tree on that disk
that was in fat32.  The driver did warn me: 'Data integrity not
guaranteed' (dmesg).  Now I am a believer...

Gwendolyn.


--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list



Re: [gentoo-user] USB Mass Storage

2003-03-29 Thread latin hypercube
IIRC you need the SCSI modules available.  Do you?


On Tuesday 25 March 2003 07:43, Gwendolyn van der Linden wrote:
  hub.c: new USB device 00:02.0-2, assigned address 5
  usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout
  usb.c: USB device not responding, giving up (error=-110)
  hub.c: new USB device 00:02.0-2, assigned address 6
  usb.c: USB device not accepting new address=6 (error=-110)
 


 --
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list


--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list



Re: [gentoo-user] USB Mass Storage

2003-03-29 Thread Hemmann, Volker Armin
Hi,

for usb-mass -storage you need: usb-storage, ide-scsi, sd_mod. 

I have a usb-flash stick, working fine connected via an 1.1a hub to a 2.0 
port.

Glück Auf,
Volker


--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list



RE: [gentoo-user] USB Mass Storage

2003-03-24 Thread Gwendolyn van der Linden
 hub.c: new USB device 00:02.0-2, assigned address 5
 usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout
 usb.c: USB device not responding, giving up (error=-110)
 hub.c: new USB device 00:02.0-2, assigned address 6
 usb.c: USB device not accepting new address=6 (error=-110)

 Can someone give me a hand here?

I'm afraid not (at least not by me), but I do have the same problem.
It doesn't happen always, but about every other time after a reboot.
Also, when the USB device is already plugged in when booting, chances
seem higher that things go wrong.  Also, during large fetches
(emerge -uf world) the drive may suddenly switch to read-only mode.
Finally, the USB driver may even stop working altogether, as is logged
as a kernel message ('usb blah blah stopped working. not good', or
something to that effect).

Very same laptop / USB device combo works OK when I boot into Win2K...

A short Google gave me one interesting hit:
  http://www.linux-usb.org/FAQ.html#ts6

I'll have to try that out (fiddle with the 'Expected OS' setting in
the BIOS).  It may be an interrupt thing.  Perhaps it works for you.

Gwendolyn.



--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list