Re: Acceptance of OpenOffice.org (was Re: Gov't , economics and technology (was Re: METROCAST BLOCKS RESIDENTIAL E-MAIL))
- Original Message - From: "Kevin D. Clark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Greater NH Linux User Group" Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 10:32 AM Subject: Re: Acceptance of OpenOffice.org (was Re: Gov't , economics and technology (was Re: METROCAST BLOCKS RESIDENTIAL E-MAIL)) [that's what I get for sending a message whilst running a test] I'm a Perl nut, so you may want to take this with a grain of salt, but I believe that Perl is becoming the language of choice for Astronomers, Geographers, Genomeers, etc who need to do some programming as part of their profession, but do not see themselves as programmers. When I was working at Compaq I worked with a number of companies that were doing genome research. At the time they were pretty much all using Perl. That may have changed. -Alex Oh well. --kevin -- GnuPG ID: B280F24E And the madness of the crowd alumni.unh.edu!kdc Is an epileptic fit -- Tom Waits ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Acceptance of OpenOffice.org (was Re: Gov't , economics and technology (was Re: METROCAST BLOCKS RESIDENTIAL E-MAIL))
On 3/15/06, Python <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Astronomers (who I admittedly met at a Python conference) who said that > Python had replaced Forth as the language of choice. I bet all the non-astronomers at that Python conference also said Python was a language of choice. ;-) > This is not meant to denigrate Perl or C or other programming languages. > If your programming is an adjunct to your main job, you'll want a > programming language that is relatively easy to apply. C is not a > reasonable option. Perl, Python, Ruby, Smalltalk, Tcl, all have pros > and cons, but do make the cut as languages that can be used effectively > by people without extensive programming backgrounds. Hmmm. I would say pretty much any programming language, including all of the above, will require a significant investment in education before they become useful for the development of new code. Most C implementations lack any kind of run-time error checking, which usually makes it very hard for the beginner (or even the expert) to find certain kinds of common mistakes. The lack of an interactive mode for C also makes "learning by doing" a lot harder. None of that really eliminates the need for education, though; C just makes the education a lot more painful. It takes more then 24 hours to learn how to program a computer, regardless of what Sam's Publishing says. :) -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Acceptance of OpenOffice.org (was Re: Gov't , economics and technology (was Re: METROCAST BLOCKS RESIDENTIAL E-MAIL))
On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 10:32 -0500, Kevin D. Clark wrote: > [that's what I get for sending a message whilst running a test] It was funnier the first way. > > > I'm a Perl nut, so you may want to take this with a grain of salt, but > I believe that Perl is becoming the language of choice for > Astronomers, Geographers, Genomeers, etc who need to do some > programming as part of their profession, but do not see themselves as > programmers. Background anecdotal evidence: ESRI has adopted Python as their preferred scripting language (leading GIS software company) Astronomers (who I admittedly met at a Python conference) who said that Python had replaced Forth as the language of choice. This is not meant to denigrate Perl or C or other programming languages. If your programming is an adjunct to your main job, you'll want a programming language that is relatively easy to apply. C is not a reasonable option. Perl, Python, Ruby, Smalltalk, Tcl, all have pros and cons, but do make the cut as languages that can be used effectively by people without extensive programming backgrounds. Python uses white space rather than braces to mark blocks. This can create problems for the unwary. Emailing Python source code can turn into an adventure. "abc" = "def" is an error in Python (use ==); evaluates as true in Perl (use eq or =~). There are so many pitfalls and oddities that we just take for granted. > > > Oh well. > > --kevin -- Lloyd Kvam Venix Corp ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Acceptance of OpenOffice.org (was Re: Gov't , economics and technology (was Re: METROCAST BLOCKS RESIDENTIAL E-MAIL))
[that's what I get for sending a message whilst running a test] I'm a Perl nut, so you may want to take this with a grain of salt, but I believe that Perl is becoming the language of choice for Astronomers, Geographers, Genomeers, etc who need to do some programming as part of their profession, but do not see themselves as programmers. Oh well. --kevin -- GnuPG ID: B280F24E And the madness of the crowd alumni.unh.edu!kdc Is an epileptic fit -- Tom Waits ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Acceptance of OpenOffice.org (was Re: Gov't , economics and technology (was Re: METROCAST BLOCKS RESIDENTIAL E-MAIL))
Python writes: > I'm a Python nut, so you may want to take this with a grain of salt, but > I believe that Python is becoming the language of choice for > Astronomers, Geographers, Genomeers, etc who need to do some > programming as part of their profession, but do not see themselves as > programmers. I'm a Perl nut, so you may want to take this with a grain of salt, but I believe that Python is becoming the language of choice for Astronomers, Geographers, Genomeers, etc who need to do some programming as part of their profession, but do not see themselves as programmers. Regards, --kevin -- GnuPG ID: B280F24E And the madness of the crowd alumni.unh.edu!kdc Is an epileptic fit -- Tom Waits ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Acceptance of OpenOffice.org (was Re: Gov't , economics and technology (was Re: METROCAST BLOCKS RESIDENTIAL E-MAIL))
I think the first language should be a bondage-and-discipline type like Pascal or (even better!) Modula-2. Second C, third and absolutely essential (in my mind) is an assembly language. I think programmers who understand how the machine works underneath (and have been forced to think like one at the lowest level) are better programmers in all their languages. Every time I hear a CS type say something like "the machine shouldn't affect your programming, these are abstract concepts" I want to bury them neck-deep in devices with embedded systems in them. --DTVZ ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Acceptance of OpenOffice.org (was Re: Gov't , economics and technology (was Re: METROCAST BLOCKS RESIDENTIAL E-MAIL))
On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 08:27 -0500, Tom Buskey wrote: > > > On 3/14/06, Kevin D. Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'll leave it to others to opine which language is best to > start with. > There seem to be lots of opinions. But, one thing that I find > to be > really weird are CS programs that start with Java but never > teach C! > Ever! I have a good friend who went through a program like > this. He > is very very smart, but he doesn't know a lot about C. I find > this to > be very...weird. Then again, he knows a more about Java than > I do. > > > Well, there was a time when *everyone* learned BASIC. Then the > CS/Math guys learned Pascal. Engineers learned Fortran. Business > learned Cobol. I'm a Python nut, so you may want to take this with a grain of salt, but I believe that Python is becoming the language of choice for Astronomers, Geographers, Genomeers, etc who need to do some programming as part of their profession, but do not see themselves as programmers. This course teaches software carpentry http://www.third-bit.com/swc/ building things with software. A heavy emphasis on tools. The early part of the course talks about test driven development, but the later part of the course has not been changed to actually use TDD. http://www.norvig.com/21-days.html An essay by Norvig that suggests Scheme and Python as good candidates for first language courses. > > Further on for CS was a language class that taught lisp/scheme, > snobol, C, and some other language I can't remember. > > Some would find a CS program that started with C and never taught > Pascal to be odd. > > > > > > -- > A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many > bad measures. > - Daniel Webster -- Lloyd Kvam Venix Corp ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Acceptance of OpenOffice.org (was Re: Gov't , economics and technology (was Re: METROCAST BLOCKS RESIDENTIAL E-MAIL))
On Wednesday 15 March 2006 8:42 am, Kevin D. Clark wrote: > Tom Buskey writes: > > Some would find a CS program that started with C and never taught > > Pascal to be odd. > > My formal CS education started with ML, went to LISP, then Modula-2, > and then C. > > We could quibble over all of the details of CS curriculum, but I just > find a program that never really teaches C over the course of 4 years > to be a little bit odd, that's all. > > I don't necessarily think that C should be a first language either. I agree that C should not be a first language. IMHO, I think that Pascal is an excellent language to teach basic programming skills as well as data structures, which is what Wirth really designed it for. (I learned FORTRAN as my first language in 1965). The problem with both C and Java in this context is that both are (or can be) very cryptic. The problem with teaching Pascal is that it is not really used in the industry. So, if the objective of a programming course is to teach the students a specific skill they can use, then Pascal is probably not a good choice, but IMHO, the schools should teach the important aspects of computer programming, including data structures early, then once a student learns the first language, then transition that student to a real-world language. -- Jerry Feldman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9 ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Acceptance of OpenOffice.org (was Re: Gov't , economics and technology (was Re: METROCAST BLOCKS RESIDENTIAL E-MAIL))
Tom Buskey writes: > Some would find a CS program that started with C and never taught Pascal to > be odd. My formal CS education started with ML, went to LISP, then Modula-2, and then C. We could quibble over all of the details of CS curriculum, but I just find a program that never really teaches C over the course of 4 years to be a little bit odd, that's all. I don't necessarily think that C should be a first language either. Regards, --kevin -- >From the C-IAQ: 1.3: If I write the code int i, j; can I assume that (&i + 1) == &j? Only sometimes. It's not portable, because in EBCDIC, i and j are not adjacent. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Acceptance of OpenOffice.org (was Re: Gov't , economics and technology (was Re: METROCAST BLOCKS RESIDENTIAL E-MAIL))
On 3/14/06, Kevin D. Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I'll leave it to others to opine which language is best to start with.There seem to be lots of opinions. But, one thing that I find to bereally weird are CS programs that start with Java but never teach C!Ever! I have a good friend who went through a program like this. He is very very smart, but he doesn't know a lot about C. I find this tobe very...weird. Then again, he knows a more about Java than I do.Well, there was a time when *everyone* learned BASIC. Then the CS/Math guys learned Pascal. Engineers learned Fortran. Business learned Cobol. Further on for CS was a language class that taught lisp/scheme, snobol, C, and some other language I can't remember.Some would find a CS program that started with C and never taught Pascal to be odd. -- A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures. - Daniel Webster
Re: Acceptance of OpenOffice.org (was Re: Gov't , economics and technology (was Re: METROCAST BLOCKS RESIDENTIAL E-MAIL))
Bill McGonigle writes: > My high school taught Pascal on Z/80 machines running CPM when those > were 'out of date'. I think they'd still be fine for learning > Pascal. My high school math teacher took me aside on the first day of computer class and told me that he didn't know anything about computers and that he'd be depending on me a lot. After I got Pascal installed on all of the machines, it was a kind-of self-study in Pascal after that. Woo-hoo. > Heck, I learned assembly on a VIC 20 (3583 BYTES FREE) and the > concepts are still the same today. I actually learned assembly language from _Machine Language for Beginners_ and _Assembly Language for Kids_. My impetus for learning this stuff was that sprites were so damn slow in BASIC. > I'm still not convinced children > ought to jump straight into Java as their first language - it offers > enough of a library that you tend to do more engineering and less CS > (exponentiation built-in!). I'll leave it to others to opine which language is best to start with. There seem to be lots of opinions. But, one thing that I find to be really weird are CS programs that start with Java but never teach C! Ever! I have a good friend who went through a program like this. He is very very smart, but he doesn't know a lot about C. I find this to be very...weird. Then again, he knows a more about Java than I do. Oh well. --kevin -- Kevin's updated Elephant Memory Systems Tribute Site: http://home.comcast.net/~kevin_d_clark/ems/ ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Acceptance of OpenOffice.org (was Re: Gov't , economics and technology (was Re: METROCAST BLOCKS RESIDENTIAL E-MAIL))
On Mar 13, 2006, at 15:18, Christopher Schmidt wrote: So, although most of the computer related classes - Desktop Publishing, Word Processing, etc. - were taught on relatively modern machines running a recent windows version, the Computer Science courses were taught on the oldest computers in the school (for student use anyway). My high school taught Pascal on Z/80 machines running CPM when those were 'out of date'. I think they'd still be fine for learning Pascal. Heck, I learned assembly on a VIC 20 (3583 BYTES FREE) and the concepts are still the same today. I'm still not convinced children ought to jump straight into Java as their first language - it offers enough of a library that you tend to do more engineering and less CS (exponentiation built-in!). If anyone has influence in high schools I recommend the ACSL: http://www.acsl.org as a good opportunity for learning CS in high school. I went to a tiny high school in central NJ but we still managed to place in the top five nationally for several years. A good teacher is essential (thanks, Jack DeValue!). As for job postings requiring Microsoft Word and Excel - in 1990 they probably required WordStar and Lotus 1-2-3! -Bill - Bill McGonigle, Owner Work: 603.448.4440 BFC Computing, LLC Home: 603.448.1668 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cell: 603.252.2606 http://www.bfccomputing.com/Page: 603.442.1833 Blog: http://blog.bfccomputing.com/ VCard: http://bfccomputing.com/vcard/bill.vcf ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Acceptance of OpenOffice.org (was Re: Gov't , economics and technology (was Re: METROCAST BLOCKS RESIDENTIAL E-MAIL))
On Monday 13 March 2006 1:37 pm, Randy Edwards wrote: > Just for the record, when I said "computer science" this is exactly > what I was referring to. Far too often I've seen classes that are > devolved to the point to where they are little more than memorization > exercises for MS Office. That isn't education it's "training," and it's > a sure-fire way to ensure that people's knowledge is thoroughly outdated > when > software/technology changes. I agree. There is a lot to be said for training elementary, middle and high school kids to use some of the many tools that they have available, and I'm not adverse to training them on how to use MS Office. But, when they call a class "computer science" they should teach computer science, not how to use a tool. -- Jerry Feldman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9 ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Acceptance of OpenOffice.org (was Re: Gov't , economics and technology (was Re: METROCAST BLOCKS RESIDENTIAL E-MAIL))
On Monday 13 March 2006 2:47 pm, Dan Jenkins wrote: > I was talking to someone (a middle-school teacher) at a party over the > holidays who mentioned his school's "computer science" class. I was > curious what programming languages they taught. He assured me that they > didn't allow hacking at all. After a short discussion, I discovered he > apparently did not know that computer software was written by people > using programming languages. Computer Software is not written by people. It is written by those of us who have achieved a state of deity. > (I didn't try to find out where he thought > it came from.) So, their "computer science" class doesn't teach, nor > allow, programming at all. I just went to get another drink; it wasn't > worth the effort to explain otherwise. You were probably correct to get another drink, but that guy is probably typical of those who teach about computers in our public schools. About 10 years ago, home computers were pretty much beyond the reach of most public school teachers. It has only been since then that many have been able to afford them. Additionally, it is difficult for school systems to keep their equipment maintainable and reasonably up-to-date. -- Jerry Feldman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9 ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Acceptance of OpenOffice.org (was Re: Gov't , economics and technology (was Re: METROCAST BLOCKS RESIDENTIAL E-MAIL))
> Having recently finished with school myself, I can tell you first hand > that many computer courses are focused around usage of certain > applications rather than a more general understanding of concepts. Just for the record, when I said "computer science" this is exactly what I was referring to. Far too often I've seen classes that are devolved to the point to where they are little more than memorization exercises for MS Office. That isn't education it's "training," and it's a sure-fire way to ensure that people's knowledge is thoroughly outdated when software/technology changes. Regards, . Randy -- "In 2001, the top 20 percent of households for the first time raked in more than half of all income, while the share earned by those in the middle was the lowest in nearly 50 years." -- Griff Witte, Washington Post, September 19, 2004. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Acceptance of OpenOffice.org (was Re: Gov't , economics and technology (was Re: METROCAST BLOCKS RESIDENTIAL E-MAIL))
Christopher Schmidt wrote: As a counter to this: At the high school level, typically "computer science" is a prep course for the Computer Science A or AB test. (Apologies ahead of time for anyone I may have made to feel old due to the years listed in this post.) Thanks, sonny, for the information. I got to go punch some paper tapes... ...as soon as I remember where I left my walker. :-) Actually, that is good to hear. Some positive news on the education front is always welcome. -- Dan Jenkins ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Rastech Inc., Bedford, NH, USA --- 1-603-206-9951 *** Technical Support for over a Quarter Century ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Acceptance of OpenOffice.org (was Re: Gov't , economics and technology (was Re: METROCAST BLOCKS RESIDENTIAL E-MAIL))
On Mon, Mar 13, 2006 at 03:09:33PM -0500, Jerry Feldman wrote: > About 10 years ago, home computers were pretty much beyond the reach of most > public school teachers. It has only been since then that many have been > able to afford them. Additionally, it is difficult for school systems to > keep their equipment maintainable and reasonably up-to-date. Further to my previous email about computer science courses: The C++ machines we were working with were running Windows 3.1. Of course, we never logged into that OS: all of our work was done in Borland's Turbo C++ DOS IDE. The class did involve writing a scary amount of graphics code using Borland libraries of some kind that I was never able to reproduce outside that environment. The computers were supposedly bought originally in 1988 or something similar. The rest of the school was using Windows 98 (which later transitioned to Windows 2000 in the library), but they didn't have the ability (or didn't want to, with Java coming around the corner) to transition to new machines for the C++ development. This is probably related in part to the fact that the teacher of the course had been doing it for more than a dozen years, and didn't want to have the thing he knew (the machines) change, when he'd already changed languages on them. So, although most of the computer related classes - Desktop Publishing, Word Processing, etc. - were taught on relatively modern machines running a recent windows version, the Computer Science courses were taught on the oldest computers in the school (for student use anyway). -- Christopher Schmidt Web Developer ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Acceptance of OpenOffice.org (was Re: Gov't , economics and technology (was Re: METROCAST BLOCKS RESIDENTIAL E-MAIL))
Tom Buskey wrote: When I was in college for my CAD course I had to use: Calma - VMS IDEAS - VMC AutoCAD - PC VersaCAD - PC CADkey - PC CADC - Zenith Z100 Late 80s when there were multiple choices. Now I'd imagine seeing AutoCAD, Cadence, Mentor Graphics, Pro/E, (are those just EDA?) A client of ours recently had a couple of interns. One of them had only used AutoCAD and some exposure to what appeared to be a school-developed system. The other had experienced some more, because he had sought out more on his own. Apparently, training was provided on only a single CAD environment in both their schools. It was an interesting introduction. I think it would be very useful for students to see at least 3 or the following MS-Office 97, Office 2003, Corel, OpenOffice, Apple iWork(?) and maybe a works type suite. A programming ciriculum would generally have more then 1 language. Everything should be taught with multiple perspectives. The broader a base to draw on, the more universal the insights to be gained. Basic principles can be learned if you have more than a single data point to learn from. A single data point just doesn't provide enough information. My experience with most schools now is that training (I hesitate to call it education) is provided in a single version of a single program doing specific tasks. -- Dan Jenkins ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Rastech Inc., Bedford, NH, USA --- 1-603-206-9951 *** Technical Support for over a Quarter Century ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Acceptance of OpenOffice.org (was Re: Gov't , economics and technology (was Re: METROCAST BLOCKS RESIDENTIAL E-MAIL))
On Mon, Mar 13, 2006 at 02:47:59PM -0500, Dan Jenkins wrote: > I was talking to someone (a middle-school teacher) at a party over the > holidays who mentioned his school's "computer science" class. I was > curious what programming languages they taught. He assured me that they > didn't allow hacking at all. After a short discussion, I discovered he > apparently did not know that computer software was written by people > using programming languages. (I didn't try to find out where he thought > it came from.) So, their "computer science" class doesn't teach, nor > allow, programming at all. I just went to get another drink; it wasn't > worth the effort to explain otherwise. As a counter to this: At the high school level, typically "computer science" is a prep course for the Computer Science A or AB test. When I took it (about 6 years ago), this was in C++ -- It's been changed now to be Java, after I finished the program in 2001, but the AP test itself is focused around concepts: Computer Science A [1] Computer Science A emphasizes object-oriented programming methodology with an emphasis on problem solving and algorithm development and is meant to be the equivalent of a first-semester course in computer science. It also includes the study of data structures and abstraction, but these topics are not covered to the extent that they are covered in Computer Science AB. Computer Science AB [2] Computer Science AB includes all the topics of Computer Science A, as well as a more formal and a more in-depth study of algorithms, data structures, and data abstraction. For example, binary trees are studied in Computer Science AB but not in Computer Science A. The use of recursive data structures and dynamically allocated structures is fundamental to Computer Science AB. Up until about 3 years before I took the class (98-99) all the AP materials and course materials were in Pascal. So, although most classes labelled "computer science" (*especially* before High School) may not be actually teaching said topic in the primary and secondary schools, there is definitely some teaching of these concepts. However, of the 20-30 kids in my class, I was the only one to actually take the AP test. (I scored a 5, the highest possible, primarily due to out of class learning.) Not a perfect world, by any means, but if you have the interest, and want to put forth the effort, you typically can get to a point where you have the knowledge neccesary to demonstrate some computer science knowledge at the high school level. This is true in any subject: primary and secondary education caters for the most part ot the bare minimum, but there are resources to go farther than that if you wish, and have the determination to do so. [1] http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/sub_compscia.html?compscia [2] http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/sub_compsciab.html?compscia (Apologies ahead of time for anyone I may have made to feel old due to the years listed in this post.) -- Christopher Schmidt Web Developer ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Acceptance of OpenOffice.org (was Re: Gov't , economics and technology (was Re: METROCAST BLOCKS RESIDENTIAL E-MAIL))
Jerry Feldman wrote: There is a lot to be said for training elementary, middle and high school kids to use some of the many tools that they have available, and I'm not adverse to training them on how to use MS Office. But, when they call a class "computer science" they should teach computer science, not how to use a tool. I was talking to someone (a middle-school teacher) at a party over the holidays who mentioned his school's "computer science" class. I was curious what programming languages they taught. He assured me that they didn't allow hacking at all. After a short discussion, I discovered he apparently did not know that computer software was written by people using programming languages. (I didn't try to find out where he thought it came from.) So, their "computer science" class doesn't teach, nor allow, programming at all. I just went to get another drink; it wasn't worth the effort to explain otherwise. -- Dan Jenkins ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Rastech Inc., Bedford, NH, USA --- 1-603-206-9951 *** Technical Support for over a Quarter Century ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Acceptance of OpenOffice.org (was Re: Gov't , economics and technology (was Re: METROCAST BLOCKS RESIDENTIAL E-MAIL))
When I was in college for my CAD course I had to use:Calma - VMSIDEAS - VMCAutoCAD - PCVersaCAD - PCCADkey - PCCADC - Zenith Z100Late 80s when there were multiple choices. Now I'd imagine seeing AutoCAD, Cadence, Mentor Graphics, Pro/E, (are those just EDA?) It was an interesting introduction. I think it would be very useful for students to see at least 3 or the following MS-Office 97, Office 2003, Corel, OpenOffice, Apple iWork(?) and maybe a works type suite. A programming ciriculum would generally have more then 1 language.Heck, in high school I took typing. We learned on electric and manual typewriters. Slightly different techniques. In that era some typewriters were adding print wheels, correction, memories, mailing lists, forms.
Re: Acceptance of OpenOffice.org (was Re: Gov't , economics and technology (was Re: METROCAST BLOCKS RESIDENTIAL E-MAIL))
Having recently finished with school myself, I can tell you first hand that many computer courses are focused around usage of certain applications rather than a more general understanding of concepts. I agree completely that many teachers are used to their Microsoft products and don't know anything else. In my mind, the solution is to get school systems to try products like Open Office concurrently with their standard Microsoft packages. In this way, teachers could have time to get familiar with open office and still have MS stuff to fall back on. Besides, anyone who knows MS Office should REALLY be able to figure out OOo. -chris Jerry Feldman wrote: On Monday 13 March 2006 11:28 am, Randy Edwards wrote: > So I'm thinking that maybe successful acceptance of OpenOffice.org > requires us getting it into the school systems. I agree completely. And a complicating factor is that many computer "teachers" aren't really teaching computer sci or generic computing concepts, but instead they're teaching Windows and MS apps. I've seen far, far too many teachers which, when confronted with a Mac or any app other than the standard one they use, will be absolutely lost. The resistance I've found is not at the school board level. Boards will query whether OOo or free software is popular enough in the "business world" to teach to kids (a semi-legit question), but the dollars and cents angle swings the board every time. The actual resistance I've seen will come from the local computer teachers. Add to that the "if it doesn't cost anything it can't be worth anything" assumption (heavily ingrained in the educational bureaucracy) and converting public schools is difficult. The school systems are not teaching computer science, they are teaching computer usage. There are a few issues where we might be able to make some progress, at least with OO.o. first, Microsoft Office licenses are expensive even for public schools that get lower prices. One could use the cost issue. But the business issue is very important because many businesses may require "MS Word, MW Exel" experience. The other problem is the teachers. In recent years, fortunately, many of our professional colleagues have changed their professions and are now teaching. But, historically, teachers are not the most knowledgeable people when it comes to computers. This will change in time. In any case, the focus of many of these schools is not so much training as is giving the students experience that they can document on a resume. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Acceptance of OpenOffice.org (was Re: Gov't , economics and technology (was Re: METROCAST BLOCKS RESIDENTIAL E-MAIL))
On Monday 13 March 2006 11:28 am, Randy Edwards wrote: > > So I'm thinking that maybe successful acceptance of OpenOffice.org > > requires us getting it into the school systems. > >I agree completely. And a complicating factor is that many computer > "teachers" aren't really teaching computer sci or generic computing > concepts, but instead they're teaching Windows and MS apps. I've seen > far, far too many teachers which, when confronted with a Mac or any app > other than the standard one they use, will be absolutely lost. > >The resistance I've found is not at the school board level. Boards > will query whether OOo or free software is popular enough in the > "business world" to teach to kids (a semi-legit question), but the > dollars and cents angle swings the board every time. The actual > resistance I've seen will come from the local computer teachers. Add to > that the "if it doesn't cost anything it can't be worth anything" > assumption (heavily ingrained in the educational bureaucracy) and > converting public schools is difficult. The school systems are not teaching computer science, they are teaching computer usage. There are a few issues where we might be able to make some progress, at least with OO.o. first, Microsoft Office licenses are expensive even for public schools that get lower prices. One could use the cost issue. But the business issue is very important because many businesses may require "MS Word, MW Exel" experience. The other problem is the teachers. In recent years, fortunately, many of our professional colleagues have changed their professions and are now teaching. But, historically, teachers are not the most knowledgeable people when it comes to computers. This will change in time. In any case, the focus of many of these schools is not so much training as is giving the students experience that they can document on a resume. -- Jerry Feldman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9 ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Acceptance of OpenOffice.org (was Re: Gov't , economics and technology (was Re: METROCAST BLOCKS RESIDENTIAL E-MAIL))
> So I'm thinking that maybe successful acceptance of OpenOffice.org requires > us getting it into the school systems. I agree completely. And a complicating factor is that many computer "teachers" aren't really teaching computer sci or generic computing concepts, but instead they're teaching Windows and MS apps. I've seen far, far too many teachers which, when confronted with a Mac or any app other than the standard one they use, will be absolutely lost. The resistance I've found is not at the school board level. Boards will query whether OOo or free software is popular enough in the "business world" to teach to kids (a semi-legit question), but the dollars and cents angle swings the board every time. The actual resistance I've seen will come from the local computer teachers. Add to that the "if it doesn't cost anything it can't be worth anything" assumption (heavily ingrained in the educational bureaucracy) and converting public schools is difficult. Regards, . Randy -- "If this war is so righteous, why don't you send your children?" -- Mother of dead GI Susan Niederer to First Lady Laura Bush (Bush didn't answer). ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Acceptance of OpenOffice.org (was Re: Gov't , economics and technology (was Re: METROCAST BLOCKS RESIDENTIAL E-MAIL))
Kuni Tetsu wrote: The biggest road block I have seen to the acceptance of Open Office is the fact that they do not have the same menues as the products they are trying to supplant. Yesterday, my ten year old daughter wanted to use the computer that has OpenOffice.org. When I asked why she said because she couldn't figure out how to do something with MS Office but knew how to do it with OpenOffice.org. Actually, she didn't mention the office suites by name, she just said that computer and this computer. Apparently she had learned how to do something on OpenOffice.org and when it wasn't the same on MS Office it was easier to just go back to OpenOffice.org. So I'm thinking that maybe successful acceptance of OpenOffice.org requires us getting it into the school systems. Larry ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
