Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Theppitak Karoonboonyanan]

Dear gnome-i18n,

I believe this is an appropriate place to discuss about cultural
conventions.

How is a foot interpreted in your culture? Do you have the same
issue I have met? In my culture, showing foot is considered rude.
And the foot is not something to impress people who are totally new
to GNOME.

I am not asking to replace the foot logo. I just wish to have a secondary
one which can also represent GNOME in my culture. But to convince
people for the proposal, the effect of this issue may need some
estimation.

Note that icon theming also helps at some degree to avoid showing the
foot. But when talking about something outside the UI, such as
screenshots in documentations, web site logos, and any other kinds
of promotions, we need more consistency. That is, we need some
alternative logo which people recognize as GNOME.

So, how about your culture? Is a foot considered offensive?

Thanks,
-- 
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
http://linux.thai.net/~thep/

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 4:18 PM, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have thought about this issue for a while whether it
> should be raised or not, as the logo has been in use
> for a long time. And I'm not sure if it's ever discussed
> anywhere about the cultural issue with the GNOME's
> foot logo, which may obstruct GNOME promotion in
> some way.
>
> In Thai culture, and I'm pretty sure also in the nearby
> regions, showing foot is considered rude, as it's the
> lowest part of the body. And a variation of the word
> 'foot' in Thai is used for scolding, in the tone close to
> "f**k" or "b*tch" in English.
>
> I have had hard times introducing GNOME to Thai people
> who never know about it before, and their reactions
> are awkward when seeing the foot logo. I have to
> explain that it's a footprint, not the foot itself. But that
> doesn't help much, as footprint also indicates treading
> with a foot.
>
> Some people simply refuse GNOME with the reason
> that it's impolite.
>
> That sometimes makes me feel uncomfortable to
> promote GNOME to new users as-is, or with
> distributions that try to keep upstream look-and-feels
> like Debian. But with Ubuntu or Fedora, where the
> main menu logo is replaced with something else,
> that's more OK. Just avoid letting them see the animated
> foot on Epiphany or Nautilus, until they are familiar with
> GNOME enough.
>
> I don't know if this is an issue for other cultures.
> Just want to raise it for awareness on an obstacle.
>
> Should there be an alternative logo for GNOME?
> For example, using a gnome head instead is OK.
>
> Regards,
> --
> Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
> http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
>
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[DULMANDAKH Sukhbaatar]

> How is a foot interpreted in your culture? Do you have the same
> issue I have met? In my culture, showing foot is considered rude.
> And the foot is not something to impress people who are totally new
> to GNOME.

As a mongolian, I don't have anything against foot. And neither to
other people. They get interested what the foot and GNOME is. Just
that.

> I am not asking to replace the foot logo. I just wish to have a secondary
> one which can also represent GNOME in my culture. But to convince
> people for the proposal, the effect of this issue may need some
> estimation.

Personally, I like it, and everyone who use GNOME also likes it.


-- 
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Theppitak Karoonboonyanan]

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 2:38 PM, DULMANDAKH Sukhbaatar
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> As a mongolian, I don't have anything against foot. And neither to
> other people. They get interested what the foot and GNOME is. Just
> that.

Thanks. So, it's not a problem for Mongolian.

> Personally, I like it, and everyone who use GNOME also likes it.

So do I, as long as I don't try to spread GNOME. And I assume most
GNOME fans here like it. Please note that the question is not about
you, but it's about your culture in general.

Regards,
-- 
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http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[F Wolff]

On Do, 2008-10-30 at 13:27 +0700, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote:
> Dear gnome-i18n,
> 
> I believe this is an appropriate place to discuss about cultural
> conventions.
> 
> How is a foot interpreted in your culture? Do you have the same
> issue I have met? In my culture, showing foot is considered rude.
> And the foot is not something to impress people who are totally new
> to GNOME.

Hallo

I think this is a very interesting topic, and it will be interesting to
see how we handle it. I don't think the foot is a problem in my culture,
but in a way, I don't think that is the issue. The issue is that it is a
problem in your culture, and therefore we have to consider it.

I assume that culturally sensitive graphical design is hard, and I guess
you are used to simply taking what you get as a Thai translator. If we
say we are an international group, we should try to accommodate this
difference as much as we work on text layout, GUI translation, date
formats, etc.

I think I know of at least one team that doesn't translate and promote
Firefox under that brand, since the fox is considered negative in their
culture - I guess for Mozilla there is too much in that brand to dilute
it, but they lost that team (in as far as I know). I see there is a beta
translation of Firefox 3 into Thai - I don't know if it is similar for
you perhaps.

While we will probably discuss this much more, a possible solution I'm
thinking of would be to choose something different, but that has a
similar visual style. For example, a hand / tree / bird / whatever of
which the icon is designed so that it looks similar to the GNOME foot.
For RTL languages some icons are swapped around - would a similar
mechanism help to use alternative graphics in the Thai locale? My gut
feeling says no, but perhaps it is something we can work towards.

Just some thoughts. Good luck!

Friedel


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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Matej Urban]

Hello,

I've read a few such "cultural" problems, and can understand why they
came around, but it eventually comes down to the "interpretation" of
the problem.

*I strongly support an idea to make logo and logo-name
international-isable, translatable and changeable, but I doubt that
this will (ever) happen soon. There are numerous names in the
open-source community, that are funny, strange, offensive or plane
stupid to some cultures or languages.*

If the foot offends me, I don't see the foot, but a paw.
If paw offends me, then I see a happy face, with toes as electrified hair ...
... in the end, I don't look at the foot, but love the thing that represents it.

Imagine me; I consider a circle offensive and a cross personally
degradable. Think about it and count the letters T and O, that I had
to write.
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hello,

2008/10/30 F Wolff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Do, 2008-10-30 at 13:27 +0700, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote:
>> Dear gnome-i18n,
>>
>> I believe this is an appropriate place to discuss about cultural
>> conventions.
>>
>> How is a foot interpreted in your culture? Do you have the same
>> issue I have met? In my culture, showing foot is considered rude.
>> And the foot is not something to impress people who are totally new
>> to GNOME.

just FWIW, the foot is or has been considered rude or even a heavy
insult (duel fodder) in a number of cultures.

> I assume that culturally sensitive graphical design is hard, and I guess
> you are used to simply taking what you get as a Thai translator. If we
> say we are an international group, we should try to accommodate this
> difference as much as we work on text layout, GUI translation, date
> formats, etc.

Agree, but partly, like Matej says, it's in the eye of the beholder,
and partly it's a matter of resources.

I think no alternative logos will appear until people start submitting them.

> I think I know of at least one team that doesn't translate and promote
> Firefox under that brand, since the fox is considered negative in their
> culture - I guess for Mozilla there is too much in that brand to dilute
> it, but they lost that team (in as far as I know).

This is a pity and if true even a bit silly. The firefox isn't a fox,
it's a panda:


This is the animal that would turn up all across the field, before
Mozilla Firefox popularity overwhelmed all the search engines.

BR,
Gudmund
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Theppitak Karoonboonyanan]

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 5:49 PM, Gudmund Areskoug
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I think no alternative logos will appear until people start submitting them.

I'm not an artist. So, all I can do is propose ideas. As said somewhere
in the marketing-list, I like Thilo's idea of the gnome hat. Probably, we
can start with an old icon of EOG (attached). We can remove the eye
to get only the hat, or it may include a gnome's face as well.

Let me repeat that this is a proposal for a "secondary" logo, not a
replacement of the foot logo. So, I won't try to argue whether to
obsolete the foot, unless no second logo is allowed.

Regards,
-- 
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan]

Hi Karoonboonyanan,

I come from Malaysia. I do understand about the cultural issue regarding
foot in people  especially in the South East Asia area.

Currently, from my observation, there is no setback from people in Malaysia
with the usage of foot as GNOME logo. Most of the people that are interested
to use GNOME did not really care about the foot logo, but some do ask
question why foot was chosen as the logo.

As for alternative of the foot logo, maybe GNOME team can come up with a
simple "G" logo, that can be used for community that thinks foot is not nice
to associated with.

The same logo can then be used in the user interface, documentation, or
other material when you are trying to introduce GNOME to them.


On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 2:27 PM, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dear gnome-i18n,
>
> I believe this is an appropriate place to discuss about cultural
> conventions.
>
> How is a foot interpreted in your culture? Do you have the same
> issue I have met? In my culture, showing foot is considered rude.
> And the foot is not something to impress people who are totally new
> to GNOME.
>
> I am not asking to replace the foot logo. I just wish to have a secondary
> one which can also represent GNOME in my culture. But to convince
> people for the proposal, the effect of this issue may need some
> estimation.
>
> Note that icon theming also helps at some degree to avoid showing the
> foot. But when talking about something outside the UI, such as
> screenshots in documentations, web site logos, and any other kinds
> of promotions, we need more consistency. That is, we need some
> alternative logo which people recognize as GNOME.
>
> So, how about your culture? Is a foot considered offensive?
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
> http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ 
>
> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 4:18 PM, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I have thought about this issue for a while whether it
> > should be raised or not, as the logo has been in use
> > for a long time. And I'm not sure if it's ever discussed
> > anywhere about the cultural issue with the GNOME's
> > foot logo, which may obstruct GNOME promotion in
> > some way.
> >
> > In Thai culture, and I'm pretty sure also in the nearby
> > regions, showing foot is considered rude, as it's the
> > lowest part of the body. And a variation of the word
> > 'foot' in Thai is used for scolding, in the tone close to
> > "f**k" or "b*tch" in English.
> >
> > I have had hard times introducing GNOME to Thai people
> > who never know about it before, and their reactions
> > are awkward when seeing the foot logo. I have to
> > explain that it's a footprint, not the foot itself. But that
> > doesn't help much, as footprint also indicates treading
> > with a foot.
> >
> > Some people simply refuse GNOME with the reason
> > that it's impolite.
> >
> > That sometimes makes me feel uncomfortable to
> > promote GNOME to new users as-is, or with
> > distributions that try to keep upstream look-and-feels
> > like Debian. But with Ubuntu or Fedora, where the
> > main menu logo is replaced with something else,
> > that's more OK. Just avoid letting them see the animated
> > foot on Epiphany or Nautilus, until they are familiar with
> > GNOME enough.
> >
> > I don't know if this is an issue for other cultures.
> > Just want to raise it for awareness on an obstacle.
> >
> > Should there be an alternative logo for GNOME?
> > For example, using a gnome head instead is OK.
> >
> > Regards,
> > --
> > Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
> > http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ 
> >
> ___
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>



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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Thomas Thurman]

Ysgrifennodd Theppitak Karoonboonyanan:
> On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 5:49 PM, Gudmund Areskoug
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I think no alternative logos will appear until people start submitting them.
> 
> I'm not an artist. So, all I can do is propose ideas. As said somewhere
> in the marketing-list, I like Thilo's idea of the gnome hat. Probably, we
> can start with an old icon of EOG (attached). We can remove the eye
> to get only the hat, or it may include a gnome's face as well.

You could cut it down to the bare essentials:
http://spectrum.myriadcolours.com/~marnanel/gnome-hat.svg

Any more and it would look like the Bass logo.

T


-- 
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The dragon is implacable.
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Theppitak Karoonboonyanan]

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 7:51 PM, Thomas Thurman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ysgrifennodd Theppitak Karoonboonyanan:
>> On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 5:49 PM, Gudmund Areskoug
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> > I think no alternative logos will appear until people start submitting 
>> > them.
>>
>> I'm not an artist. So, all I can do is propose ideas. As said somewhere
>> in the marketing-list, I like Thilo's idea of the gnome hat. Probably, we
>> can start with an old icon of EOG (attached). We can remove the eye
>> to get only the hat, or it may include a gnome's face as well.
>
> You could cut it down to the bare essentials:
> http://spectrum.myriadcolours.com/~marnanel/gnome-hat.svg
>
> Any more and it would look like the Bass logo.

Hey, this looks cool! Thanks.

Meanwhile, with my poor artistic skill, I've mocked up what I imagined,
which is far from finalized.

Regards,
-- 
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Axel Hecht]

2008/10/30 F Wolff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
<...>
> I think I know of at least one team that doesn't translate and promote
> Firefox under that brand, since the fox is considered negative in their
> culture - I guess for Mozilla there is too much in that brand to dilute
> it, but they lost that team (in as far as I know). I see there is a beta
> translation of Firefox 3 into Thai - I don't know if it is similar for
> you perhaps.

Hi Friedel,

I don't rule out that I forgot, do you recall which locale that was, and when?

Axel
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Theppitak Karoonboonyanan skrev:

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 7:51 PM, Thomas Thurman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Ysgrifennodd Theppitak Karoonboonyanan:

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 5:49 PM, Gudmund Areskoug
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I think no alternative logos will appear until people start submitting them.

I'm not an artist. So, all I can do is propose ideas. As said somewhere
in the marketing-list, I like Thilo's idea of the gnome hat. Probably, we
can start with an old icon of EOG (attached). We can remove the eye
to get only the hat, or it may include a gnome's face as well.

You could cut it down to the bare essentials:
http://spectrum.myriadcolours.com/~marnanel/gnome-hat.svg

Any more and it would look like the Bass logo.


Hey, this looks cool! Thanks.


Just don't think of an ice-cream cone turned upside down... ;)


Meanwhile, with my poor artistic skill, I've mocked up what I imagined,
which is far from finalized.


Wouldn't an upstyled capital "G" be sensible, like Sharuzzaman 
suggested? Even if this might perhaps mean one upstyled "G" for every 
script, it would certainly be neutral. Unless...


BR,
Gudmund
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Gudmund Areskoug wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> 2008/10/30 F Wolff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> On Do, 2008-10-30 at 13:27 +0700, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote:
>>> Dear gnome-i18n,
>>>
>>> I believe this is an appropriate place to discuss about cultural
>>> conventions.
>>>
>>> How is a foot interpreted in your culture? Do you have the same
>>> issue I have met? In my culture, showing foot is considered rude.
>>> And the foot is not something to impress people who are totally new
>>> to GNOME.
> 
> just FWIW, the foot is or has been considered rude or even a heavy
> insult (duel fodder) in a number of cultures.

There's little information in that sentence without backing it up with real
names and (hopefully) evidence.

behdad

>> I assume that culturally sensitive graphical design is hard, and I guess
>> you are used to simply taking what you get as a Thai translator. If we
>> say we are an international group, we should try to accommodate this
>> difference as much as we work on text layout, GUI translation, date
>> formats, etc.
> 
> Agree, but partly, like Matej says, it's in the eye of the beholder,
> and partly it's a matter of resources.
> 
> I think no alternative logos will appear until people start submitting them.
> 
>> I think I know of at least one team that doesn't translate and promote
>> Firefox under that brand, since the fox is considered negative in their
>> culture - I guess for Mozilla there is too much in that brand to dilute
>> it, but they lost that team (in as far as I know).
> 
> This is a pity and if true even a bit silly. The firefox isn't a fox,
> it's a panda:
> 
> 
> This is the animal that would turn up all across the field, before
> Mozilla Firefox popularity overwhelmed all the search engines.
> 
> BR,
> Gudmund
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[F Wolff]

On Do, 2008-10-30 at 16:33 +0100, Axel Hecht wrote:
> 2008/10/30 F Wolff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> <...>
> > I think I know of at least one team that doesn't translate and promote
> > Firefox under that brand, since the fox is considered negative in their
> > culture - I guess for Mozilla there is too much in that brand to dilute
> > it, but they lost that team (in as far as I know). I see there is a beta
> > translation of Firefox 3 into Thai - I don't know if it is similar for
> > you perhaps.
> 
> Hi Friedel,
> 
> I don't rule out that I forgot, do you recall which locale that was, and when?
> 
> Axel

I wouldn't like to be quoted on it, but vaguely remember it probably as
an example somebody gave in a "cultural awareness in L10n" presentation
or something like that. It might just be that we are talking about the
Thai team now, but South East Asia rings a bell. About when I can't say.

Please don't get me wrong - it wasn't criticism either way, just a
(possibly incorrect) data-point. I think there is substantial value in
the Firefox brand, and I guess I wouldn't want it diluted if it was my
decision to make.

The fox story probably intrigued me a bit since it reminds me of the
status a wolf has in some Afrikaans folk tales... and that has
implications for me personally, as you can imagine. I'm not sure if it
is good or bad for me that the GNOME logo is not a wolf...

Keep well
Friedel Wolff

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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hello Behdad,

Behdad Esfahbod skrev:

Gudmund Areskoug wrote:

Hello,

2008/10/30 F Wolff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

On Do, 2008-10-30 at 13:27 +0700, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote:

Dear gnome-i18n,

I believe this is an appropriate place to discuss about cultural
conventions.

How is a foot interpreted in your culture? Do you have the same
issue I have met? In my culture, showing foot is considered rude.
And the foot is not something to impress people who are totally new
to GNOME.

just FWIW, the foot is or has been considered rude or even a heavy
insult (duel fodder) in a number of cultures.


There's little information in that sentence without backing it up with real
names and (hopefully) evidence.


just for starters:


Never mind my own circumstantial experiences, e. g. from seeing an 
intermezzo in a street down in Assuan (which b the looks of it would 
have ended in a fierce fight had not the offending one of them 
"skedaddled", rather quickly), or being taught not to show the sole of 
the foot in Aikido, or being told on site in Pompeii about how one could 
show someone utter contempt in ancient Rome by showing the sole of the 
feet/foot to someone and that it might still be considered insulting in 
some parts of the south of Italy etc. etc.


BR,
Gudmund
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Theppitak Karoonboonyanan]

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I come from Malaysia. I do understand about the cultural issue regarding
> foot in people  especially in the South East Asia area.
>
> Currently, from my observation, there is no setback from people in Malaysia
> with the usage of foot as GNOME logo. Most of the people that are interested
> to use GNOME did not really care about the foot logo, but some do ask
> question why foot was chosen as the logo.

Thanks for the information. Actually, I think people who are willing to
accept GNOME can accept its logo. But the problem I've been facing
is about introducing it to people who are totally new. And I'd say,
almost *everyone* I introduce GNOME to asks me the question, with
different levels of reactions. And repeatedly answering the question
over time becomes too much for me. I think I'm more happy to answer
technical or philosophical questions instead.

> As for alternative of the foot logo, maybe GNOME team can come up with a
> simple "G" logo, that can be used for community that thinks foot is not nice
> to associated with.
>
> The same logo can then be used in the user interface, documentation, or
> other material when you are trying to introduce GNOME to them.

Thanks for supporting the alternative logo, and for the suggestion.

Regards,
-- 
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Theppitak Karoonboonyanan]

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 10:52 PM, Gudmund Areskoug
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Wouldn't an upstyled capital "G" be sensible, like Sharuzzaman suggested?
> Even if this might perhaps mean one upstyled "G" for every script, it would
> certainly be neutral. Unless...

How about this one?
  http://linux.thai.net/~thep/shots/gnome-logo/gnome-ok.svg
(Sorry, this one is the real ugly.)

Hopefully it's not an offensive sign in some culture. ;-)

Regards,
-- 
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http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Andre Klapper]

Am Freitag, den 31.10.2008, 09:56 +0700 schrieb Theppitak
Karoonboonyanan:
> How about this one?
>   http://linux.thai.net/~thep/shots/gnome-logo/gnome-ok.svg
> (Sorry, this one is the real ugly.)
> 
> Hopefully it's not an offensive sign in some culture. ;-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_gesture#Okay
It can be quite offensive in Brazil (Mexico and Paraguay were also
mentioned in one article I've found, don't know).

andre
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Petr Kovar]

Hi!

"Theppitak Karoonboonyanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Fri, 31 Oct 2008
16:44:33 +0700:

> On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Andre Klapper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Am Freitag, den 31.10.2008, 09:56 +0700 schrieb Theppitak
> > Karoonboonyanan:
> >> How about this one?
> >>   http://linux.thai.net/~thep/shots/gnome-logo/gnome-ok.svg
> >> (Sorry, this one is the real ugly.)
> >>
> >> Hopefully it's not an offensive sign in some culture. ;-)
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_gesture#Okay
> > It can be quite offensive in Brazil (Mexico and Paraguay were also
> > mentioned in one article I've found, don't know).
> 
> So, let's put this idea aside for now. However, the foot logo is still
> available for them, just in case.
> 
> BTW, how is my proposal to add a secondary logo agreed?
> Can I start a GNOME live page for this?

What about not using the foot logo, or introducing a new logo, if desirable,
in Thai (and Lao, and perhaps some others) locale only? Would the logo
change be sufficient solely as a part of your l10n processes?

Best,
Petr Kovar
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Theppitak Karoonboonyanan]

On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Andre Klapper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Am Freitag, den 31.10.2008, 09:56 +0700 schrieb Theppitak
> Karoonboonyanan:
>> How about this one?
>>   http://linux.thai.net/~thep/shots/gnome-logo/gnome-ok.svg
>> (Sorry, this one is the real ugly.)
>>
>> Hopefully it's not an offensive sign in some culture. ;-)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_gesture#Okay
> It can be quite offensive in Brazil (Mexico and Paraguay were also
> mentioned in one article I've found, don't know).

So, let's put this idea aside for now. However, the foot logo is still
available for them, just in case.

BTW, how is my proposal to add a secondary logo agreed?
Can I start a GNOME live page for this?

Regards,
-- 
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Theppitak Karoonboonyanan]

On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 6:17 PM, Petr Kovar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> What about not using the foot logo, or introducing a new logo, if desirable,
> in Thai (and Lao, and perhaps some others) locale only? Would the logo
> change be sufficient solely as a part of your l10n processes?

I think it's better not to make it look like a fork. For example, without
appropriate communication, one may think it's like the Firefox/Iceweasel
rebranding case. It would be more seamless if people see the new logo
somewhere at GNOME site as a sign of acceptance so that the logo
can equally, or at least unofficially, represent GNOME, just like how
the Debian project has two versions of logos.

Then, we can add icon themes using the new logo, and let people
choose or even make appropriate defaults based on locale. This will
also allow people in other locales to choose the logo, although the foot
is no issue for them.

What do you think?

Regards,
-- 
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Axel Hecht]

To put in the information of somebody that has nothing to do with
gnome, but with brands a bit as part of my work for Firefox.

I expect your chances of getting the foot changed to be slim. I just
looked over planet.gnome.org, and it's full of foots. The recognition
and value of that logo are probably outweighing your problems by an
order of magnitude.

I didn't see a single post syndicated to planet that would raise wider
awareness of your thinking either.

I kinda miss a real description of the impact, too. Like, how many
users are you really talking about?

To give an example of where Firefox is hitting a brick wall in terms
of spreading the word. In Korea, nobody is using https to do safe web.
There's an architecture built upon active-x controls and IE instead,
due to export regulations in the past. So basically, using firefox in
Korea, you can't do online shopping or banking or nothing. And yet,
we're not shipping active-x.

In our global world, there's always a counter example for good
decisions, and in those regions, you have to work around it and try to
get as good as it gets. That might be lower than in the rest of the
world, it might make your evangelism efforts harder, but that's the
way it is.

In the end, I'd expect someone proposing a change like this to come up
with a much more analytical dataset, a few alternative approaches
(like a special theme like Petr suggested, for example), and a widely
open discussion. Then I'd expect a lot of heat, and finally a decision
made by a few brand csars.

Take this with a mountain of salt, I really don't know jack about how
the gnome project works. I just figured that giving you some preview
of the inertia to brand changes would be appropriate.

Axel

2008/10/31 Theppitak Karoonboonyanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 6:17 PM, Petr Kovar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> What about not using the foot logo, or introducing a new logo, if desirable,
>> in Thai (and Lao, and perhaps some others) locale only? Would the logo
>> change be sufficient solely as a part of your l10n processes?
>
> I think it's better not to make it look like a fork. For example, without
> appropriate communication, one may think it's like the Firefox/Iceweasel
> rebranding case. It would be more seamless if people see the new logo
> somewhere at GNOME site as a sign of acceptance so that the logo
> can equally, or at least unofficially, represent GNOME, just like how
> the Debian project has two versions of logos.
>
> Then, we can add icon themes using the new logo, and let people
> choose or even make appropriate defaults based on locale. This will
> also allow people in other locales to choose the logo, although the foot
> is no issue for them.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Regards,
> --
> Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
> http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Theppitak Karoonboonyanan]

On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 8:40 PM, Axel Hecht <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I expect your chances of getting the foot changed to be slim. I just
> looked over planet.gnome.org, and it's full of foots. The recognition
> and value of that logo are probably outweighing your problems by an
> order of magnitude.

And have I ever said I'm trying to change the foot? I think I've repeated
at least 3 times here that I'm proposing a "secondary" logo, not a
replacement. And this is the 4th repeat.

> I didn't see a single post syndicated to planet that would raise wider
> awareness of your thinking either.

If I had syndicated, I would. And the same question applies: how many
percentage of GNOME users feed Planet GNOME? How well does it
represent people around the world? Something not mentioned there
never happens in the world?

BTW, let me repeat that I'm not trying to overthrow the foot. So it doesn't
matter what you will use on the Planet. It can be the foot as you like.
No problem. What I propose is a non-intrusive solution.

> I kinda miss a real description of the impact, too. Like, how many
> users are you really talking about?

I'm not mainly talking about users. It's rather about potential users.
May I repeat that I personally have no problem with the foot, as long
as I don't try to spread GNOME.

> In our global world, there's always a counter example for good
> decisions, and in those regions, you have to work around it and try to
> get as good as it gets. That might be lower than in the rest of the
> world, it might make your evangelism efforts harder, but that's the
> way it is.

And I'm not trying to change the way it is. The foot is to be retained.
Only a new logo is added.

> In the end, I'd expect someone proposing a change like this to come up
> with a much more analytical dataset, a few alternative approaches
> (like a special theme like Petr suggested, for example), and a widely
> open discussion. Then I'd expect a lot of heat, and finally a decision
> made by a few brand csars.

And asking gnome-i18n list is part of gathering the data, although
it's only a supplementary information that is not directly essential,
when a non-intrusive solution is proposed. The population count is
just to find who would benefit from it, apart from the proposer.

I don't expect heat. I'm not good at flamewar. What I expect is a
solution.

Regards,
-- 
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Henrique P Machado]

Andre,

You're 100% right about using the sign made by Am here in Brazil. I think
using this proposed sign would avoid the use of GNOME because of it's sexual
appealing.
Just to register: Here, when somebody disagree with other, he/she shows the
Okay sign, when they have some kind of friendship or shows the sign followed
by a 'river' of bad words when they aren't friends. Or vice-versa. This is
commonly used by uneducated people or incult one.

On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 01:48, Andre Klapper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Am Freitag, den 31.10.2008, 09:56 +0700 schrieb Theppitak
> Karoonboonyanan:
> > How about this one?
> >   
> > http://linux.thai.net/~thep/shots/gnome-logo/gnome-ok.svg
> > (Sorry, this one is the real ugly.)
> >
> > Hopefully it's not an offensive sign in some culture. ;-)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_gesture#Okay
> It can be quite offensive in Brazil (Mexico and Paraguay were also
> mentioned in one article I've found, don't know).
>
> andre
> --
>  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | failed
>  http://www.iomc.de/  | http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper
>
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>



-- 
Henrique P Machado
ZehRique

OpenPGP Keys: 0CE49BAA
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[F Wolff]

On Vr, 2008-10-31 at 12:17 +0100, Petr Kovar wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> "Theppitak Karoonboonyanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Fri, 31 Oct 2008
> 16:44:33 +0700:
> 


> What about not using the foot logo, or introducing a new logo, if desirable,
> in Thai (and Lao, and perhaps some others) locale only? Would the logo
> change be sufficient solely as a part of your l10n processes?

This sounds like an unintrusive and simple solution. I'm guessing there
is no infrastructure in place to do this today, but is probably possible
with a little bit of work.

Friedel


--
Recently on my blog:
http://translate.org.za/blogs/friedel/en/content/its-easyer-with-kulula

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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Changwoo Ryu]

2008-10-31 (금), 14:40 +0100, Axel Hecht:

> To give an example of where Firefox is hitting a brick wall in terms
> of spreading the word. In Korea, nobody is using https to do safe web.
> There's an architecture built upon active-x controls and IE instead,
> due to export regulations in the past. So basically, using firefox in
> Korea, you can't do online shopping or banking or nothing. And yet,
> we're not shipping active-x.

This is not exactly true. Only some money/tax/government related Korean
web sites are inaccessible with non-IE browsers. Their security software
details are regulated by the government so they are (practically) forced
to use active-x based softwares. (Even Google AdWords Korean page is
using an active-x control for credit card operation.)

So in Korea, Firefox is good enough except for these serious tasks.
Well, most people use web for fun. :)

-- 
Changwoo Ryu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Theppitak Karoonboonyanan]

On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 10:44 PM, F Wolff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Vr, 2008-10-31 at 12:17 +0100, Petr Kovar wrote:

>> What about not using the foot logo, or introducing a new logo, if desirable,
>> in Thai (and Lao, and perhaps some others) locale only? Would the logo
>> change be sufficient solely as a part of your l10n processes?
>
> This sounds like an unintrusive and simple solution. I'm guessing there
> is no infrastructure in place to do this today, but is probably possible
> with a little bit of work.

Using icon theme can also be unintrusive. However, it should be nice
to make the logo better known, so that people can recognize it as
another GNOME representation, not a fork or rebranding or casual
customization.

For example, the Gorilla theme is more associated with Ximian than
the standard GNOME. We may have a new theme, but people may
not treat it as GNOME. And it would look weird to use the new logo
in promotion web sites and events. Some recognition at GNOME site
would help retain the unity in activities.

BTW, having repeated some assertions for several times, I think it's
enough for a dedicated live page:

  http://live.gnome.org/FootAndCulturalIssue

This summarizes what we have got so far, and what to do with the
cultural issue.

Regards,
-- 
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Theppitak Karoonboonyanan]

On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 11:04 AM, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 10:44 PM, F Wolff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On Vr, 2008-10-31 at 12:17 +0100, Petr Kovar wrote:
>
>>> What about not using the foot logo, or introducing a new logo, if desirable,
>>> in Thai (and Lao, and perhaps some others) locale only? Would the logo
>>> change be sufficient solely as a part of your l10n processes?
>>
>> This sounds like an unintrusive and simple solution. I'm guessing there
>> is no infrastructure in place to do this today, but is probably possible
>> with a little bit of work.
>
> Using icon theme can also be unintrusive. However, it should be nice
> to make the logo better known, so that people can recognize it as
> another GNOME representation, not a fork or rebranding or casual
> customization.
>
> For example, the Gorilla theme is more associated with Ximian than
> the standard GNOME. We may have a new theme, but people may
> not treat it as GNOME. And it would look weird to use the new logo
> in promotion web sites and events. Some recognition at GNOME site
> would help retain the unity in activities.

Let me add another difference between the direct logo localization
and the icon theming methods.

Many Thai users don't like to use Thai translation. This is a popular
taste, despite how much translation effort and quality assurance has
been done. And that's why I put lower priority on translation than
infrastructure development. (I joined the team after having done enough
progress on GTK+, Pango, etc.)

And by this practice, the logo localization will have limited effect, while
theming still allows Thai people who choose English locale to change
the logo.

In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the
secondary logo.

Regards,
-- 
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Petr Kovar]

"Theppitak Karoonboonyanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:00:06
+0700:

(...)

> Let me add another difference between the direct logo localization
> and the icon theming methods.
> 
> Many Thai users don't like to use Thai translation. This is a popular
> taste, despite how much translation effort and quality assurance has
> been done. And that's why I put lower priority on translation than
> infrastructure development. (I joined the team after having done enough
> progress on GTK+, Pango, etc.)
> 
> And by this practice, the logo localization will have limited effect,
> while theming still allows Thai people who choose English locale to change
> the logo.
> 
> In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the
> secondary logo.

Let me ask you, those Thai people with such a non-Thai-locale taste likely
have a better understanding of English or Western culture, right? (At least
that's what I suppose.) So the foot logo shouldn't be a big problem for
them then? Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

Best,
Petr Kovar
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Theppitak Karoonboonyanan]

On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:34 AM, Petr Kovar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Theppitak Karoonboonyanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:00:06
> +0700:
>
>> Let me add another difference between the direct logo localization
>> and the icon theming methods.
>>
>> Many Thai users don't like to use Thai translation. This is a popular
>> taste, despite how much translation effort and quality assurance has
>> been done. And that's why I put lower priority on translation than
>> infrastructure development. (I joined the team after having done enough
>> progress on GTK+, Pango, etc.)
>>
>> And by this practice, the logo localization will have limited effect,
>> while theming still allows Thai people who choose English locale to change
>> the logo.
>>
>> In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the
>> secondary logo.
>
> Let me ask you, those Thai people with such a non-Thai-locale taste likely
> have a better understanding of English or Western culture, right? (At least
> that's what I suppose.) So the foot logo shouldn't be a big problem for
> them then? Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

Nope.The taste is popular just because software are badly translated
in general. And people feel more happy with original English terms
than guessing the translators' whim on choosing inconsistent
translated terms. Many are full with typos or misinterpretations, for
example. Kind of bad impression. And that habit is not changed when
they use GNOME, despite our heavy QA.

There is nothing to do with English skill nor familiarity with Western
cultures.

I hope our QA can gradually change their habit in the future, though.

Regards,
-- 
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Petr Kovar]

"Theppitak Karoonboonyanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:10:32
+0700:

> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:34 AM, Petr Kovar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > "Theppitak Karoonboonyanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Sat, 1 Nov 2008
> > 14:00:06 +0700:
> >
> >> Let me add another difference between the direct logo localization
> >> and the icon theming methods.
> >>
> >> Many Thai users don't like to use Thai translation. This is a popular
> >> taste, despite how much translation effort and quality assurance has
> >> been done. And that's why I put lower priority on translation than
> >> infrastructure development. (I joined the team after having done enough
> >> progress on GTK+, Pango, etc.)
> >>
> >> And by this practice, the logo localization will have limited effect,
> >> while theming still allows Thai people who choose English locale to
> >> change the logo.
> >>
> >> In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the
> >> secondary logo.
> >
> > Let me ask you, those Thai people with such a non-Thai-locale taste
> > likely have a better understanding of English or Western culture,
> > right? (At least that's what I suppose.) So the foot logo shouldn't be
> > a big problem for them then? Please correct me if I'm wrong here.
> 
> Nope.The taste is popular just because software are badly translated
> in general. And people feel more happy with original English terms
> than guessing the translators' whim on choosing inconsistent
> translated terms. Many are full with typos or misinterpretations, for
> example. Kind of bad impression. And that habit is not changed when
> they use GNOME, despite our heavy QA.
> 
> There is nothing to do with English skill nor familiarity with Western
> cultures.

Sorry, but I can't understand this. In my way of thinking, one has to have
rather good English skills in order to use (American) English locale. And
I'm pretty sure that good English skills necessarily come with some level
of familiarity with Western culture.

Best,
Petr Kovar
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Petr Kovar skrev:

"Theppitak Karoonboonyanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:10:32
+0700:


On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:34 AM, Petr Kovar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

"Theppitak Karoonboonyanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Sat, 1 Nov 2008
14:00:06 +0700:


Let me add another difference between the direct logo localization
and the icon theming methods.

Many Thai users don't like to use Thai translation. This is a popular
taste, despite how much translation effort and quality assurance has
been done. And that's why I put lower priority on translation than
infrastructure development. (I joined the team after having done enough
progress on GTK+, Pango, etc.)

And by this practice, the logo localization will have limited effect,
while theming still allows Thai people who choose English locale to
change the logo.

In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the
secondary logo.

Let me ask you, those Thai people with such a non-Thai-locale taste
likely have a better understanding of English or Western culture,
right? (At least that's what I suppose.) So the foot logo shouldn't be
a big problem for them then? Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

Nope.The taste is popular just because software are badly translated
in general. And people feel more happy with original English terms
than guessing the translators' whim on choosing inconsistent
translated terms. Many are full with typos or misinterpretations, for
example. Kind of bad impression. And that habit is not changed when
they use GNOME, despite our heavy QA.

There is nothing to do with English skill nor familiarity with Western
cultures.


Sorry, but I can't understand this. In my way of thinking, one has to have
rather good English skills in order to use (American) English locale. And
I'm pretty sure that good English skills necessarily come with some level
of familiarity with Western culture.


While on interpreting assignment, I've met factory workers with
(otherwise) zero knowledge of Italian operating an assembly line with an
Italian UI. The translation the supplier had promised simply never
materialized in any usable form, so they made do with what they had.

Context is king.

BR,
Gudmund

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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Theppitak Karoonboonyanan]

On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 9:01 AM, Gudmund Areskoug
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Petr Kovar skrev:
>>
>> "Theppitak Karoonboonyanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Sun, 2 Nov 2008
>> 02:10:32
>> +0700:
>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:34 AM, Petr Kovar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

 "Theppitak Karoonboonyanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Sat, 1 Nov 2008
 14:00:06 +0700:

> Let me add another difference between the direct logo localization
> and the icon theming methods.
>
> Many Thai users don't like to use Thai translation. This is a popular
> taste, despite how much translation effort and quality assurance has
> been done. And that's why I put lower priority on translation than
> infrastructure development. (I joined the team after having done enough
> progress on GTK+, Pango, etc.)
>
> And by this practice, the logo localization will have limited effect,
> while theming still allows Thai people who choose English locale to
> change the logo.
>
> In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the
> secondary logo.

 Let me ask you, those Thai people with such a non-Thai-locale taste
 likely have a better understanding of English or Western culture,
 right? (At least that's what I suppose.) So the foot logo shouldn't be
 a big problem for them then? Please correct me if I'm wrong here.
>>>
>>> Nope.The taste is popular just because software are badly translated
>>> in general. And people feel more happy with original English terms
>>> than guessing the translators' whim on choosing inconsistent
>>> translated terms. Many are full with typos or misinterpretations, for
>>> example. Kind of bad impression. And that habit is not changed when
>>> they use GNOME, despite our heavy QA.
>>>
>>> There is nothing to do with English skill nor familiarity with Western
>>> cultures.
>>
>> Sorry, but I can't understand this. In my way of thinking, one has to have
>> rather good English skills in order to use (American) English locale. And
>> I'm pretty sure that good English skills necessarily come with some level
>> of familiarity with Western culture.
>
> While on interpreting assignment, I've met factory workers with
> (otherwise) zero knowledge of Italian operating an assembly line with an
> Italian UI. The translation the supplier had promised simply never
> materialized in any usable form, so they made do with what they had.
>
> Context is king.

Yes, and what's actually needed to use English UI is just a small set
of vocabulary. File, New, Open, Edit, Cut, Paste, etc. When long
messages appear, just find the Next, OK or Cancel button. Never waste
time to read them. And almost zero user reads manuals/helps.

Sort of sad to learn that as a translator, right?

Regards,
-- 
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Theppitak Karoonboonyanan]

On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the
> secondary logo.

I've tried creating an icon theme using the hat logo.
  http://linux.thai.net/~thep/shots/gnome-logo/Hat-20081102.tar.gz

This overrides start-here, process-idle and process-working, to replace
the foot at known significant places. The throbber is quick and dirty draft.
Ideas are welcome.

Regards,
-- 
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http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Theppitak Karoonboonyanan]

On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 9:34 AM, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 9:01 AM, Gudmund Areskoug
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Petr Kovar skrev:
>>>
>>> "Theppitak Karoonboonyanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Sun, 2 Nov 2008
>>> 02:10:32
>>> +0700:
>>>
 On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:34 AM, Petr Kovar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> "Theppitak Karoonboonyanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Sat, 1 Nov 2008
> 14:00:06 +0700:
>
>> Let me add another difference between the direct logo localization
>> and the icon theming methods.
>>
>> Many Thai users don't like to use Thai translation. This is a popular
>> taste, despite how much translation effort and quality assurance has
>> been done. And that's why I put lower priority on translation than
>> infrastructure development. (I joined the team after having done enough
>> progress on GTK+, Pango, etc.)
>>
>> And by this practice, the logo localization will have limited effect,
>> while theming still allows Thai people who choose English locale to
>> change the logo.
>>
>> In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the
>> secondary logo.
>
> Let me ask you, those Thai people with such a non-Thai-locale taste
> likely have a better understanding of English or Western culture,
> right? (At least that's what I suppose.) So the foot logo shouldn't be
> a big problem for them then? Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

 Nope.The taste is popular just because software are badly translated
 in general. And people feel more happy with original English terms
 than guessing the translators' whim on choosing inconsistent
 translated terms. Many are full with typos or misinterpretations, for
 example. Kind of bad impression. And that habit is not changed when
 they use GNOME, despite our heavy QA.

 There is nothing to do with English skill nor familiarity with Western
 cultures.
>>>
>>> Sorry, but I can't understand this. In my way of thinking, one has to have
>>> rather good English skills in order to use (American) English locale. And
>>> I'm pretty sure that good English skills necessarily come with some level
>>> of familiarity with Western culture.
>>
>> While on interpreting assignment, I've met factory workers with
>> (otherwise) zero knowledge of Italian operating an assembly line with an
>> Italian UI. The translation the supplier had promised simply never
>> materialized in any usable form, so they made do with what they had.
>>
>> Context is king.
>
> Yes, and what's actually needed to use English UI is just a small set
> of vocabulary. File, New, Open, Edit, Cut, Paste, etc. When long
> messages appear, just find the Next, OK or Cancel button. Never waste
> time to read them. And almost zero user reads manuals/helps.
>
> Sort of sad to learn that as a translator, right?

Having that said, though, I think setting appropriate default icon theme
for locales is still a good idea.

Regards,
-- 
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Theppitak Karoonboonyanan]

On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 9:34 AM, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 9:01 AM, Gudmund Areskoug
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Petr Kovar skrev:
>>> Sorry, but I can't understand this. In my way of thinking, one has to have
>>> rather good English skills in order to use (American) English locale. And
>>> I'm pretty sure that good English skills necessarily come with some level
>>> of familiarity with Western culture.
>>
>> While on interpreting assignment, I've met factory workers with
>> (otherwise) zero knowledge of Italian operating an assembly line with an
>> Italian UI. The translation the supplier had promised simply never
>> materialized in any usable form, so they made do with what they had.
>>
>> Context is king.
>
> Yes, and what's actually needed to use English UI is just a small set
> of vocabulary. File, New, Open, Edit, Cut, Paste, etc. When long
> messages appear, just find the Next, OK or Cancel button. Never waste
> time to read them. And almost zero user reads manuals/helps.

Oh, let me add another cause: most Thai books and on-line tutorials
teach English commands and use English screenshots. So, newbies
just build their software skill in that environment. But all explanations
are in Thai, of course.

Sometimes, when I write how-to by referencing Thai UI, I still have
to add its English version in parallel, to help them associate to their
knowledge, as well as to get them familiar with Thai UI.

One reason I still work on translation is to aim toward people who
learn to use software without reading books, especially for primary
students who have not learned enough vocabs to grab English
meanings in UI, and senior people who are totally new to computers.
But they seem to be minority currently.

Regards,
-- 
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Sergey Panov]

Hello Theppitak,

you raised an interesting question. There a few precedents, but I doubt
those cases validate the solution you propose:
  The first precedent that comes to mind is the reason the cheap sedan
from USSR was named "Lada"(archaic Slavic for "beautiful girl") instead
of the original "Zhiguli"(mountains in the area the car factory was
build by Fiat) because it was phonetically too close to "Gigolo".
  Another one is the "Firefox" in fox hating counties. This one is more
ridiculous then the previous one -- "firefox" is not a fox, but a red
Panda(unrelated to the entire dog family to which the real fox belongs).

I've mentioned those two examples in the wain attempt to prove that some
(many/most) of the "cultural" sensitivities are ridiculous to the point
of being foony.

When I saw "foot"(long, long time ago) as a "Gnome Desktop" emblem I was
not happy. I thought that the stinkiest part of the human body did not
deserve to be an emblem of the one of the most important GNU projects.
It had nothing to do with the cultural(Russian) background, it was my
personal reaction. I am  still a Gnome "bigot" and that "Foot" does not
bother me much anymore (all emblems are stupid). I even find it kinda
cool now - rebellious, in-your-face sort of thing.   

Please, please think twice, trice, ... before claiming cultural
differences/problems. Please check if it is just you.

PS. To me, the good example of culturally insensitive emblem would be
the old indo-europen symbol for the raising sun ("kolovrat" in Slavic).
The next in line is the sickle-and-hammer variant.

> >  while modifying the core and redistributing it
> > means that their modifications must also be distributed;
> > I'm comfortable with that, and I also wouldn't mind if the project
> > received a little more attention (since the current license bars
> > the glade core from use in any commercial IDE),
> > I love seeing it in Anjuta, I would love to see it all over the place :)
> 
> Anjuta IDE is GPL and would be disadvantaged by proposed re-licensing.
> 
> > In a utopic situation, glade being available in bleeding edge IDEs
> > could even help draw attention to Gtk+ and GNOME.
> > 
> > It also wasnt exactly clearly stated that glade isn't
> > just a static application but mainly a core library
> > with plugins.
> > 
> > Btw Im something of a fan of your work and admittedly
> > a little flattered to receive your mail Richard :D
> > 
> > Cheers,
> >   -Tristan
> > ___
> > foundation-list mailing list
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
> 
> ___
> foundation-list mailing list
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-listGnome"; 

> >  while modifying the core and redistributing it
> > means that their modifications must also be distributed;
> > I'm comfortable with that, and I also wouldn't mind if the project
> > received a little more attention (since the current license bars
> > the glade core from use in any commercial IDE),
> > I love seeing it in Anjuta, I would love to see it all over the place :)
> 
> Anjuta IDE is GPL and would be disadvantaged by proposed re-licensing.
> 
> > In a utopic situation, glade being available in bleeding edge IDEs
> > could even help draw attention to Gtk+ and GNOME.
> > 
> > It also wasnt exactly clearly stated that glade isn't
> > just a static application but mainly a core library
> > with plugins.
> > 
> > Btw Im something of a fan of your work and admittedly
> > a little flattered to receive your mail Richard :D
> > 
> > Cheers,
> >   -Tristan
> > ___
> > foundation-list mailing list
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
> 
> ___
> foundation-list mailing list
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-listLada"; 

On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 13:27 +0700, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote:
> Dear gnome-i18n,
> 
> I believe this is an appropriate place to discuss about cultural
> conventions.
> 
> How is a foot interpreted in your culture? Do you have the same
> issue I have met? In my culture, showing foot is considered rude.
> And the foot is not something to impress people who are totally new
> to GNOME.
> 
> I am not asking to replace the foot logo. I just wish to have a secondary
> one which can also represent GNOME in my culture. But to convince
> people for the proposal, the effect of this issue may need some
> estimation.
> 
> Note that icon theming also helps at some degree to avoid showing the
> foot. But when talking about something outside the UI, such as
> screenshots in documentations, web site logos, and any other kinds
> of promotions, we need more consistency. That is, we need some
> alternative logo which people recognize as GNOME.
> 
> So, how about your cul

Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Theppitak Karoonboonyanan]

Hi,

On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:13 PM, Sergey Panov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I've mentioned those two examples in the wain attempt to prove that some
> (many/most) of the "cultural" sensitivities are ridiculous to the point
> of being foony.
>
> When I saw "foot"(long, long time ago) as a "Gnome Desktop" emblem I was
> not happy. I thought that the stinkiest part of the human body did not
> deserve to be an emblem of the one of the most important GNU projects.
> It had nothing to do with the cultural(Russian) background, it was my
> personal reaction. I am  still a Gnome "bigot" and that "Foot" does not
> bother me much anymore (all emblems are stupid). I even find it kinda
> cool now - rebellious, in-your-face sort of thing.
>
> Please, please think twice, trice, ... before claiming cultural
> differences/problems. Please check if it is just you.

As said somewhere else in these two threads, it's not me either.
And I believe most GNOME fans here like it.

The question is not for you, it's about your culture in general.

The problem I've met is a kind of barrier for new comers, as foot is
considered the least respected part of the body in my culture.
It's not that kind of disgust you explained. But it's a sign of strong
disrespect. You should not point with your foot. You should not
expose your foot toward others, bare or with shoe on. Raising foot
over one's head, the most respected part of the body, by any means
is a most obvious sign of disrespect. When sleeping, you should never
point your foot to Buddha's image.

On the other hand, allowing other's feet to be put over one's head
is the highest degree of paying respect, which is reserved for one's
beloved masters. And paying respect at other's feet is also the highest
degree of respect, which is reserved for one's parents or higher
people. These are traditions in societies where seniority plays an
important role like mine.

So, you can imagine how people think when someone showing foot
to them. It's like claiming of higher status and treating the target person
as a lower class or alike.

A Wikipedia page [1] describes this as a taboo in countries strongly
influenced by Buddhism. But I doubt this claim, as I find little relation
to Buddha's teaching. Rather, I think it might come with religions from
India in the past. The traditional Indian culture, obviously influenced by
Hinduism, might come along with the priests and monks from India and
Sri Langka. However, that's just my hypothesis about history. But the
fact is that this convention has indirect relation to some relegious
values.

  [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot#In_culture

Wow, a long description, isn't it? Just to clarify that it's not the same
kind as what you talked about.

> PS. To me, the good example of culturally insensitive emblem would be
> the old indo-europen symbol for the raising sun ("kolovrat" in Slavic).

Ah, you mean Swastika, right? Yes, it seems to be acceptable
everywhere. I agree.

Some academy, however, may distinguish between the right-facing
and the left-facing forms. The right-facing form means clockwise
turning, which is a sign of paying respect to some holy body for
auspiciousness, while the left-facing form, counter-clockwise, is
for misfortunes and is used in funerals. But this is just minor detail.

> The next in line is the sickle-and-hammer variant.

Are Americans OK?

Regards,
-- 
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Tino Meinen]

Op donderdag 30-10-2008 om 13:27 uur [tijdzone +0700], schreef Theppitak
Karoonboonyanan:

> How is a foot interpreted in your culture? Do you have the same
> issue I have met? In my culture, showing foot is considered rude.
We have no problems showing our feet in our culture, it's not considered
rude.

> I am not asking to replace the foot logo. 
It's not a foot, it's a footprint. Or a paw print. Human feet usually
have five toes, not four.

Is showing a paw print in your culture considered rude?

Tino Meinen



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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Simos Xenitellis]

On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 3:48 AM, Andre Klapper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Am Freitag, den 31.10.2008, 09:56 +0700 schrieb Theppitak
> Karoonboonyanan:
>> How about this one?
>>   http://linux.thai.net/~thep/shots/gnome-logo/gnome-ok.svg
>> (Sorry, this one is the real ugly.)
>>
>> Hopefully it's not an offensive sign in some culture. ;-)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_gesture#Okay
> It can be quite offensive in Brazil (Mexico and Paraguay were also
> mentioned in one article I've found, don't know).

Apparently it's offensive to all Latin America.
The story goes that when Richard Nixon visited a Latin American
country, there were hundreds of local government officials waiting at
the tarmac, with red carpet and all.
Nixon appears from the airplane, raises both arms, smiles broadly and
does that gesture to them with each hand.

Simos
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Murray Cumming]

On Sun, 2008-11-02 at 17:25 +0700, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote:
> The problem I've met is a kind of barrier for new comers, as foot is
> considered the least respected part of the body in my culture.
> It's not that kind of disgust you explained. But it's a sign of strong
> disrespect. You should not point with your foot. You should not
> expose your foot toward others, bare or with shoe on. Raising foot
> over one's head, the most respected part of the body, by any means
> is a most obvious sign of disrespect. When sleeping, you should never
> point your foot to Buddha's image.

We all believe you, I think. Thanks for telling us about this.

To make something happen, I guess you need to suggest a particular
design. Then the GNOME board could approve it - you need to ask the
board for a simple yes/no decision or it won't happen.

Maybe you could contact the GNOME Art team. They could make some
suggestions. Don't focus on the "Gnome" idea. Few people think of small
mythical beings when they think of GNOME. Unfortunately, I don't have a
good suggestion. Some other form of "G", maybe?
  
-- 
Murray Cumming
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.murrayc.com
www.openismus.com


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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Khaled Hosny]

On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 9:51 PM, Petr Kovar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Theppitak Karoonboonyanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:10:32
> +0700:
>
>> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:34 AM, Petr Kovar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > "Theppitak Karoonboonyanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Sat, 1 Nov 2008
>> > 14:00:06 +0700:
>> >
>> >> Let me add another difference between the direct logo localization
>> >> and the icon theming methods.
>> >>
>> >> Many Thai users don't like to use Thai translation. This is a popular
>> >> taste, despite how much translation effort and quality assurance has
>> >> been done. And that's why I put lower priority on translation than
>> >> infrastructure development. (I joined the team after having done enough
>> >> progress on GTK+, Pango, etc.)
>> >>
>> >> And by this practice, the logo localization will have limited effect,
>> >> while theming still allows Thai people who choose English locale to
>> >> change the logo.
>> >>
>> >> In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the
>> >> secondary logo.
>> >
>> > Let me ask you, those Thai people with such a non-Thai-locale taste
>> > likely have a better understanding of English or Western culture,
>> > right? (At least that's what I suppose.) So the foot logo shouldn't be
>> > a big problem for them then? Please correct me if I'm wrong here.
>>
>> Nope.The taste is popular just because software are badly translated
>> in general. And people feel more happy with original English terms
>> than guessing the translators' whim on choosing inconsistent
>> translated terms. Many are full with typos or misinterpretations, for
>> example. Kind of bad impression. And that habit is not changed when
>> they use GNOME, despite our heavy QA.
>>
>> There is nothing to do with English skill nor familiarity with Western
>> cultures.
>
> Sorry, but I can't understand this. In my way of thinking, one has to have
> rather good English skills in order to use (American) English locale. And
> I'm pretty sure that good English skills necessarily come with some level
> of familiarity with Western culture.

Not always true, here -in Egypt- most people prefere using English
interfaces for reasons similar to that mentioned above, even if they don't
understand most of it!

Regards,

-- 
  Khaled
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Theppitak Karoonboonyanan]

On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:26 AM, Murray Cumming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sun, 2008-11-02 at 17:25 +0700, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote:
>> The problem I've met is a kind of barrier for new comers, as foot is
>> considered the least respected part of the body in my culture.
>> It's not that kind of disgust you explained. But it's a sign of strong
>> disrespect. You should not point with your foot. You should not
>> expose your foot toward others, bare or with shoe on. Raising foot
>> over one's head, the most respected part of the body, by any means
>> is a most obvious sign of disrespect. When sleeping, you should never
>> point your foot to Buddha's image.
>
> We all believe you, I think. Thanks for telling us about this.
>
> To make something happen, I guess you need to suggest a particular
> design. Then the GNOME board could approve it - you need to ask the
> board for a simple yes/no decision or it won't happen.

Thanks for suggestion. We have got some ideas from the discussion
so far. Please see a summary at:

  http://live.gnome.org/FootAndCulturalIssue

Other ideas are still welcome.

> Maybe you could contact the GNOME Art team. They could make some
> suggestions. Don't focus on the "Gnome" idea. Few people think of small
> mythical beings when they think of GNOME. Unfortunately, I don't have a
> good suggestion. Some other form of "G", maybe?

I've also been trying to find some idea like that. So far, the OK hand
sign showing a G is not passed, as it's said to mean something dirty
in South America.

A gnome hat and head seem to be the best we can get so far.
(See the live page above.)

Regards,
-- 
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Theppitak Karoonboonyanan]

On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 10:50 PM, Tino Meinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Op donderdag 30-10-2008 om 13:27 uur [tijdzone +0700], schreef Theppitak
> Karoonboonyanan:
>
>> How is a foot interpreted in your culture? Do you have the same
>> issue I have met? In my culture, showing foot is considered rude.
> We have no problems showing our feet in our culture, it's not considered
> rude.

Thanks for the info (for Dutch, I assume?).

>> I am not asking to replace the foot logo.
> It's not a foot, it's a footprint. Or a paw print. Human feet usually
> have five toes, not four.

Yes, I know. And that's part of my explanation to people who asked me.
But it doesn't help much, as a footprint still implies treading with a foot,
although some fairy tale mentioning does deviate the askers to something
else, especially for children. :-) But that doesn't always work for adult
people.

Besides, you may not have a chance explain that to everybody who
doubts the logo.

> Is showing a paw print in your culture considered rude?

Not at all. That's normal.

Regards,
-- 
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Matej Urban]

>> Is showing a paw print in your culture considered rude?
>
> Not at all. That's normal.
>

Now, there you have your solution. Interpret the sign as a paw print
and not a foot. Tell all new users that the foot is actually a print
ant you have no cultural issues. Something similar was suggested few
times before, but ...

Matej
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Theppitak Karoonboonyanan]

On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 4:06 PM, Thilo Pfennig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Theppitak Karoonboonyanan schrieb:
>> Thanks for suggestion. We have got some ideas from the discussion
>> so far. Please see a summary at:
>>
>>   http://live.gnome.org/FootAndCulturalIssue
>
> You are listing "Nepal (as referred by Wikipedia, no confirmation by
> native people yet) "
>
> Thi extension is funny, because Wikipedia actually has the reverse logic
> - it tends to dismiss reports of single people as original research and
> likes to see references that show the truth of the claim. So any single
> person claiming something is not really a valid proof.

I meaned, I just counted Nepal based on Wikipedia, not something
I got in this list or from an actual report.

Regards,
-- 
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Theppitak Karoonboonyanan]

On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Matej Urban <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> Is showing a paw print in your culture considered rude?
>>
>> Not at all. That's normal.
>
> Now, there you have your solution. Interpret the sign as a paw print
> and not a foot. Tell all new users that the foot is actually a print
> ant you have no cultural issues. Something similar was suggested few
> times before, but ...

Sorry, I thought you meaned a "hand" by saying a "paw".
The foot print is too obvious to interpret as a hand print.

Regards,
-- 
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Theppitak Karoonboonyanan]

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 10:52 PM, Gudmund Areskoug
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Theppitak Karoonboonyanan skrev:
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 7:51 PM, Thomas Thurman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>> You could cut it down to the bare essentials:
>>> http://spectrum.myriadcolours.com/~marnanel/gnome-hat.svg
>>>
>>> Any more and it would look like the Bass logo.
>>
>> Hey, this looks cool! Thanks.
>
> Just don't think of an ice-cream cone turned upside down... ;)

Trying to adjust it, the best I can get is this:
  http://linux.thai.net/~thep/shots/gnome-logo/gnome-head-192.svg

Regards,
-- 
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Calum Benson]

On 6 Nov 2008, at 10:37, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote:

On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:26 AM, Murray Cumming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:



Maybe you could contact the GNOME Art team. They could make some
suggestions. Don't focus on the "Gnome" idea. Few people think of  
small
mythical beings when they think of GNOME. Unfortunately, I don't  
have a

good suggestion. Some other form of "G", maybe?


In my vague memory, some GNOME 1.x versions used to use a flower
logo at the main menu. And after some search, I've found some
evidences:


Ah yes.  During our GNOME 1.2 usability study, some of our  
participants memorably asked "what's the fried egg for?" :)


Other than that, a (well-designed) flower might be a pretty good  
call-- it has some history in GNOME, and it symbolises all those  
hippie values that are shared by the open source community :)


Cheeri,
Calum.

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mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]GNOME Desktop Team
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Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems

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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Theppitak Karoonboonyanan]

On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Calum Benson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 6 Nov 2008, at 10:37, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote:
>
>> In my vague memory, some GNOME 1.x versions used to use a flower
>> logo at the main menu. And after some search, I've found some
>> evidences:
>
> Ah yes.  During our GNOME 1.2 usability study, some of our participants
> memorably asked "what's the fried egg for?" :)

I see. It looks pretty much like a fried egg, too. :-)

> Other than that, a (well-designed) flower might be a pretty good call-- it
> has some history in GNOME, and it symbolises all those hippie values that
> are shared by the open source community :)

Probably, elongating the petals helps?

Before:
  http://linux.thai.net/~thep/shots/gnome-logo/flower-1.4.svg

After:
  http://linux.thai.net/~thep/shots/gnome-logo/flower-long.svg

-- 
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Theppitak Karoonboonyanan]

On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:26 AM, Murray Cumming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Maybe you could contact the GNOME Art team. They could make some
> suggestions. Don't focus on the "Gnome" idea. Few people think of small
> mythical beings when they think of GNOME. Unfortunately, I don't have a
> good suggestion. Some other form of "G", maybe?

In my vague memory, some GNOME 1.x versions used to use a flower
logo at the main menu. And after some search, I've found some
evidences:

  http://www.gnome.org/images/screenshots/2400-jacob-big
  http://www.gnome.org/images/screenshots/2518-iain-big
  http://www.gnome.org/images/screenshots/2520-ole-big

I don't know the reason behind this. And GDM also provides a flower
theme in its stock. Probably, it associates with garden gnomes?

Anyway, can we use the flower as a secondary logo for GNOME?

Regards,
-- 
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http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Murray Cumming]

On Thu, 2008-11-06 at 17:37 +0700, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:26 AM, Murray Cumming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Maybe you could contact the GNOME Art team. They could make some
> > suggestions. Don't focus on the "Gnome" idea. Few people think of small
> > mythical beings when they think of GNOME. Unfortunately, I don't have a
> > good suggestion. Some other form of "G", maybe?

> In my vague memory, some GNOME 1.x versions used to use a flower
> logo at the main menu. And after some search, I've found some
> evidences:
> 
>   http://www.gnome.org/images/screenshots/2400-jacob-big
>   http://www.gnome.org/images/screenshots/2518-iain-big
>   http://www.gnome.org/images/screenshots/2520-ole-big
> 
> I don't know the reason behind this. And GDM also provides a flower
> theme in its stock. Probably, it associates with garden gnomes?
> 
> Anyway, can we use the flower as a secondary logo for GNOME?

I suggested that you ask the Art team, and that you then take their
suggestions to the board.

-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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www.openismus.com

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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Luis Villa]

On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 11:08 AM, Murray Cumming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-11-06 at 17:37 +0700, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote:
>> On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:26 AM, Murray Cumming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> > Maybe you could contact the GNOME Art team. They could make some
>> > suggestions. Don't focus on the "Gnome" idea. Few people think of small
>> > mythical beings when they think of GNOME. Unfortunately, I don't have a
>> > good suggestion. Some other form of "G", maybe?
>
>> In my vague memory, some GNOME 1.x versions used to use a flower
>> logo at the main menu. And after some search, I've found some
>> evidences:
>>
>>   http://www.gnome.org/images/screenshots/2400-jacob-big
>>   http://www.gnome.org/images/screenshots/2518-iain-big
>>   http://www.gnome.org/images/screenshots/2520-ole-big

I always thought that was a fried egg. Huh.

>> I don't know the reason behind this. And GDM also provides a flower
>> theme in its stock. Probably, it associates with garden gnomes?
>>
>> Anyway, can we use the flower as a secondary logo for GNOME?
>
> I suggested that you ask the Art team, and that you then take their
> suggestions to the board.

+1.

Luis
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Simos Xenitellis]

Hi Theppitak,

As already suggested, delegating the choice of the new logo to the Art
Team is the typical thing to do.

My concern is in the practicalities when trying to apply the new logo
in a distribution.
If you have your own distribution, you can make all sort of changes,
so it it OK.

What you might want to explore is how to make the logo theme-able.
That is, you can select a theme that would alter the logo in all
places in GNOME.
You can then create a package with this cut-down logo-changing theme
that a user can either install on demand, or it is installed
automatically when the user selects, for example, Thai support.

Assuming that it is possible to change the logo through theming, you
may then choose a logo that has a special meaning to SE Asia.

Simos

On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Calum Benson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> On 6 Nov 2008, at 10:37, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote:
>>
>>> In my vague memory, some GNOME 1.x versions used to use a flower
>>> logo at the main menu. And after some search, I've found some
>>> evidences:
>>
>> Ah yes.  During our GNOME 1.2 usability study, some of our participants
>> memorably asked "what's the fried egg for?" :)
>
> I see. It looks pretty much like a fried egg, too. :-)
>
>> Other than that, a (well-designed) flower might be a pretty good call-- it
>> has some history in GNOME, and it symbolises all those hippie values that
>> are shared by the open source community :)
>
> Probably, elongating the petals helps?
>
> Before:
>  http://linux.thai.net/~thep/shots/gnome-logo/flower-1.4.svg
>
> After:
>  http://linux.thai.net/~thep/shots/gnome-logo/flower-long.svg
>
> --
> Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
> http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
> --
> marketing-list mailing list
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
>
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Theppitak Karoonboonyanan]

On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Luis Villa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 11:08 AM, Murray Cumming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I suggested that you ask the Art team, and that you then take their
>> suggestions to the board.
>
> +1.

It's artweb-list, not art.gnome.org, I suppose?

Also, in the last stage, "the board" means foundation-list?

Thanks,
-- 
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http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Luis Villa]

On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 6:54 PM, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Luis Villa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 11:08 AM, Murray Cumming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> I suggested that you ask the Art team, and that you then take their
>>> suggestions to the board.
>>
>> +1.
>
> It's artweb-list, not art.gnome.org, I suppose?

I think, but don't know offhand.

> Also, in the last stage, "the board" means foundation-list?

That's probably the best place to take it, yes.

Luis
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Theppitak Karoonboonyanan]

On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 11:33 PM, Simos Xenitellis
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> As already suggested, delegating the choice of the new logo to the Art
> Team is the typical thing to do.

Yes, thanks. That would be much better than my primitive drawings.

> My concern is in the practicalities when trying to apply the new logo
> in a distribution.
> If you have your own distribution, you can make all sort of changes,
> so it it OK.

In fact, I've been trying to push this upstream because I'm using Debian,
which tries to keep upstream looks as much as possible. Besides,
I prefer promoting upstream GNOME for more contributors.
For example, it would be difficult to convince translators to work
with GNOME, rather than launchpad, when few people care about
GNOME, or even know what it is.

> What you might want to explore is how to make the logo theme-able.
> That is, you can select a theme that would alter the logo in all
> places in GNOME.
> You can then create a package with this cut-down logo-changing theme
> that a user can either install on demand, or it is installed
> automatically when the user selects, for example, Thai support.

To begin with, I've already got a minimal theme, as mentioned ealier
in the list [1]. And, yes, figuring out how to make it installed for target
users is the next step to think about. Thanks. For Debian in particular,
it can be done via tasksel. But I'm also seeking for possibility of
upstream solution.

  [1] http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2008-November/msg9.html

> Assuming that it is possible to change the logo through theming, you
> may then choose a logo that has a special meaning to SE Asia.

Yes, especially if I can define the exact regions that would benefit
from this solution. My current thought is to make it applicable
everywhere.

Regards,
-- 
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http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Thilo Pfennig]

Theppitak Karoonboonyanan schrieb:
> Thanks for suggestion. We have got some ideas from the discussion
> so far. Please see a summary at:
>
>   http://live.gnome.org/FootAndCulturalIssue
>   

You are listing "Nepal (as referred by Wikipedia, no confirmation by
native people yet) "

Thi extension is funny, because Wikipedia actually has the reverse logic
- it tends to dismiss reports of single people as original research and
likes to see references that show the truth of the claim. So any single
person claiming something is not really a valid proof.

Regards,
Thilo

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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Seamus Malan]

Hi,

I may not be a Thai but my understanding is the foot is offensive not just to 
Thais but rest of the Tai-Kedai people also. The Thais are just but one group 
within the Tai-Kedai ethnicity although without doubt they are numerically 
speaking the largest. Other Tai-Kedai people include the Zhuang, Li, Laotians 
(for a complete listing, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_peoples). The 
whole sum i.e. potential target market comes up to be about ~105-110 million of 
them depending on which estimates you want to believe.

This may sound ludcicrous but I do know of some Thai friends who are from 
Bangkok as well as Isaan (i.e. north-eastern Thais who are ethnic Lao) and all 
said they would prefer not to use any operating system or DEs with a foot as 
its logo.


Rgds,
Shaun - Singaporean Chinese

> - Original Message -
> From: "Theppitak Karoonboonyanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 09:42:45 +0700
> 
> 
> On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I come from Malaysia. I do understand about the cultural issue regarding
> > foot in people  especially in the South East Asia area.
> >
> > Currently, from my observation, there is no setback from people in Malaysia
> > with the usage of foot as GNOME logo. Most of the people that are interested
> > to use GNOME did not really care about the foot logo, but some do ask
> > question why foot was chosen as the logo.
> 
> Thanks for the information. Actually, I think people who are willing to
> accept GNOME can accept its logo. But the problem I've been facing
> is about introducing it to people who are totally new. And I'd say,
> almost *everyone* I introduce GNOME to asks me the question, with
> different levels of reactions. And repeatedly answering the question
> over time becomes too much for me. I think I'm more happy to answer
> technical or philosophical questions instead.
> 
> > As for alternative of the foot logo, maybe GNOME team can come up with a
> > simple "G" logo, that can be used for community that thinks foot is not nice
> > to associated with.
> >
> > The same logo can then be used in the user interface, documentation, or
> > other material when you are trying to introduce GNOME to them.
> 
> Thanks for supporting the alternative logo, and for the suggestion.
> 
> Regards,
> --
> Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
> http://linux.thai.net/~thep/
> --
> marketing-list mailing list
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list

>


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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Andreas Nilsson]

Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote:

On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Luis Villa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  

On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 11:08 AM, Murray Cumming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I suggested that you ask the Art team, and that you then take their
suggestions to the board.
  

+1.



It's artweb-list, not art.gnome.org, I suppose?
  

Easiest way to get hold of the GNOME artists is on themes-list:
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-themes-list

The Tango mailing list might also be a good place to find artists:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/tango-artists

- Andreas
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Andy Fitzsimon]

On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 12:13 AM, Luis Villa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>   http://www.gnome.org/images/screenshots/2400-jacob-big
>>>   http://www.gnome.org/images/screenshots/2518-iain-big
>>>   http://www.gnome.org/images/screenshots/2520-ole-big
>
> I always thought that was a fried egg. Huh.
>

I wondered what happened to the fried egg.

I wouldn't be opposed to changing the foot to be a flower but then
there are all those people who read into the meaning and gestures
behind flowers.

there's no escape from misinterpretation. just ask the gimp guys
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