Re: Web interface for translation for GNOME
Thank you for this very well explanation Dimitris. But when you said Translators stay away from the VCS. They don't need access to it any more I becamed confused because what happens if a translator needs to send the locale version of an image? (as some language teams do for documentations) or if we need to send our locale version of some audio files (for instance in GCompris)? Thanks a lot, Enrico. Em 04/09/2013 00:34, Dimitris Glezos escreveu: On 2 September 2013 15:50, Axel Hecht l10n@gmail.com wrote: What process do you suggest in between transifex and version control? I can only suggest what was worked with other projects and the rationale behind Tx's decisions. Based on what we've experienced with Django and other projects, the process could be fairly simple using the Transifex Client. I don't know if GNOME is ready for a setup like this, but here is what worked for other projects. ## Tx-git Bridge When a POT file changes, have the build system, git or cron push it to Tx. $ tx push --source Build systems or scripts are the most common. Developers can also do this manually when they want to (could be made part of the common Makefile across GNOME projects. When the software is ready to be packaged, have the build scripts pull the languages from Tx. $ tx pull --all For the pull, there a few options, like a) pull the translations only when the package is ready to be shipped (rel eng), b) commit them in the VCS too, but that's not necessary, c) use a cron job instead of a trigger to commit. ## Assumptions - You're using Tx as the canonical place where translations live. The VCS are for code. If you want to bypass this assumption, you'll need to also periodically push the translated files from the repo to Tx instead of just pulling. - The translators who want to work offline are not really attached to git, but rather the command-line. This is particularly tricky to convince people for. Most translators just want a way to mass-download and upload their files. So, they're OK to use Tx client to get their files and push them back. $ tx set --auto-remote url $ tx pull --lang pt_BR (downloads hundreds of files) $ tx push --lang pt_BR (uploads the ones modified) This, of course, is in addition to the options of using a web interface to DL/UL or actual access to git itself. ## Benefits - Translators have an online tool to work with a number of additional features, such as entity-level review, TM, Glossary etc. - Translators stay away from the VCS. They don't need access to it any more, and translation commits do not show up in the VCS history. - There are no merge conflicts. Tx handles them on an entity level. Source code line changes do not create issues, etc. Hope this helps. -d ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Web interface for translation for GNOME
Good question Enrico. For images and other non-i18n files, the intention is to have a special type of file (resource type) in Transifex, Binary. This will either be 0% or 100% translated (no in-between) and the web editor would not open them, just offer download/upload. When the source file is updated (eg. English image), all of the translated versions of it are marked as untranslated. This shouldn't be hard to support if required. Any additional material such as guides, source files etc should be put in a general-purpose VCS. -d On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 6:39 AM, Enrico Nicoletto live...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you for this very well explanation Dimitris. But when you said Translators stay away from the VCS. They don't need access to it any more I becamed confused because what happens if a translator needs to send the locale version of an image? (as some language teams do for documentations) or if we need to send our locale version of some audio files (for instance in GCompris)? Thanks a lot, Enrico. Em 04/09/2013 00:34, Dimitris Glezos escreveu: On 2 September 2013 15:50, Axel Hecht l10n@gmail.com wrote: What process do you suggest in between transifex and version control? I can only suggest what was worked with other projects and the rationale behind Tx's decisions. Based on what we've experienced with Django and other projects, the process could be fairly simple using the Transifex Client. I don't know if GNOME is ready for a setup like this, but here is what worked for other projects. ## Tx-git Bridge When a POT file changes, have the build system, git or cron push it to Tx. $ tx push --source Build systems or scripts are the most common. Developers can also do this manually when they want to (could be made part of the common Makefile across GNOME projects. When the software is ready to be packaged, have the build scripts pull the languages from Tx. $ tx pull --all For the pull, there a few options, like a) pull the translations only when the package is ready to be shipped (rel eng), b) commit them in the VCS too, but that's not necessary, c) use a cron job instead of a trigger to commit. ## Assumptions - You're using Tx as the canonical place where translations live. The VCS are for code. If you want to bypass this assumption, you'll need to also periodically push the translated files from the repo to Tx instead of just pulling. - The translators who want to work offline are not really attached to git, but rather the command-line. This is particularly tricky to convince people for. Most translators just want a way to mass-download and upload their files. So, they're OK to use Tx client to get their files and push them back. $ tx set --auto-remote url $ tx pull --lang pt_BR (downloads hundreds of files) $ tx push --lang pt_BR (uploads the ones modified) This, of course, is in addition to the options of using a web interface to DL/UL or actual access to git itself. ## Benefits - Translators have an online tool to work with a number of additional features, such as entity-level review, TM, Glossary etc. - Translators stay away from the VCS. They don't need access to it any more, and translation commits do not show up in the VCS history. - There are no merge conflicts. Tx handles them on an entity level. Source code line changes do not create issues, etc. Hope this helps. -d __**_ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/**mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18nhttps://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n -- Dimitris Glezos Founder CEO, Transifex https://www.transifex.com/ ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Web interface for translation for GNOME
On 2 September 2013 15:50, Axel Hecht l10n@gmail.com wrote: What process do you suggest in between transifex and version control? I can only suggest what was worked with other projects and the rationale behind Tx's decisions. Based on what we've experienced with Django and other projects, the process could be fairly simple using the Transifex Client. I don't know if GNOME is ready for a setup like this, but here is what worked for other projects. ## Tx-git Bridge When a POT file changes, have the build system, git or cron push it to Tx. $ tx push --source Build systems or scripts are the most common. Developers can also do this manually when they want to (could be made part of the common Makefile across GNOME projects. When the software is ready to be packaged, have the build scripts pull the languages from Tx. $ tx pull --all For the pull, there a few options, like a) pull the translations only when the package is ready to be shipped (rel eng), b) commit them in the VCS too, but that's not necessary, c) use a cron job instead of a trigger to commit. ## Assumptions - You're using Tx as the canonical place where translations live. The VCS are for code. If you want to bypass this assumption, you'll need to also periodically push the translated files from the repo to Tx instead of just pulling. - The translators who want to work offline are not really attached to git, but rather the command-line. This is particularly tricky to convince people for. Most translators just want a way to mass-download and upload their files. So, they're OK to use Tx client to get their files and push them back. $ tx set --auto-remote url $ tx pull --lang pt_BR (downloads hundreds of files) $ tx push --lang pt_BR (uploads the ones modified) This, of course, is in addition to the options of using a web interface to DL/UL or actual access to git itself. ## Benefits - Translators have an online tool to work with a number of additional features, such as entity-level review, TM, Glossary etc. - Translators stay away from the VCS. They don't need access to it any more, and translation commits do not show up in the VCS history. - There are no merge conflicts. Tx handles them on an entity level. Source code line changes do not create issues, etc. Hope this helps. -d -- Dimitris Glezos Transifex: The Multilingual Publishing Revolution https://www.transifex.com/ ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Web interface for translation for GNOME
Re Having developed this functionality in the past (web editor which commits in repo upon save), I highly recommend against it. It's very error-prone, big can of worms. Also what Gil said, it's not worth the time with all those good tools out there. What process do you suggest in between transifex and version control? Axel 2013/9/1 Dimitris Glezos dimit...@glezos.com On 31 August 2013 15:46, Gil Forcada gforc...@gnome.org wrote: [...] a team that decides that it would be useful for them to have an online translation tool could create a project on Launchpad or Transifex, do the translations there and then just commit the translations to git.gnome.org. Is that even possible? This is correct. It could be as easy as: Push English strings from git to Tx: $ git pull $ tx push --source Push translations from Tx to git: $ tx pull --lang pt_BR $ git commit If someone is coding it *right now*, sure, I will gladly review the patches, try to understand them and push them, but if that's just a wish list, the wish will probably have to wait... Having developed this functionality in the past (web editor which commits in repo upon save), I highly recommend against it. It's very error-prone, big can of worms. Also what Gil said, it's not worth the time with all those good tools out there. For what it's worth, the way we worked around it is to actually treat Transifex as the canonical place where translations leave instead of git. Like a VCS for translations on a string-level with many additional metadata Gettext does not support. Git just mirrors this (with automated commit scripts etc). This is also one of the biggest differences with the current GNOME workflow/setup. But, Gil is right, it is possible for specific teams which choose it. Hope this helps. -d -- Dimitris Glezos Transifex: The Multilingual Publishing Revolution https://www.transifex.com/ ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Commit translations - was - Re: Web interface for translation for GNOME
El dv 30 de 08 de 2013 a les 17:17 +0100, en/na Fòram na Gàidhlig va escriure: And going a bit off topic, I would very much appreciate if somebody could approve my request to be a committer that I filed quite a few weeks ago. As I said, there are only 2 people on this planet for the job, and if I don't get access, who will commit my translations? Whom do I contact? Hi Fòram, Just send to this mailing list the list of modules pending to be uploaded, like say: https://l10n.gnome.org/vertimus/gtk+/master/po/gd and any other translation ready to translate. If you are already the coordinator anyone with commit rights can push it, if not, just set the workflow status to ready to be committed so that we know that is already approved by the coordinator. Cheers, Gil -- Gil Forcada [ca] guifi.net - una xarxa lliure que no para de créixer [en] guifi.net - a non-stopping free network bloc: http://gil.badall.net planet: http://planet.guifi.net ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Web interface for translation for GNOME
Hi, Sorry for not replying in-thread and just jumping here to dump my ideas/thoughts on it... So to be web-translation or not... For me the important question here is if it's as an add-on or as a complete and fixed part of it, I mean, could everyone keep their own way of working of they must use this new way? Most, if not all, of our translators in GNOME are also translating other projects, be it KDE, GNU, apps hosted in Transifex, in Launchpad... So (IMHO) the most important thing to do is to not get in their way. If they want to set up their pootle instance and put together all their GNOME, KDE, LXDE, Mozilla, LibreOffice translations to reuse the pootle server, fine with me and great for them. If they use regular D-L workflow (download the po file, translate, re-upload and so on) fine by me and great for them. Our user base (Free Software translators) is so diverse and different from country to country[1] that is quite impossible to get everyone happy. On the other side, or even more important, if the developer base (developers creating Free Software CAT tools) is so small (and on D-L near to non-existent) I would not expect blue dreams coming true from their side. Probably I am talking trash here (and correct me please) but a team that decides that it would be useful for them to have an online translation tool could create a project on Launchpad or Transifex, do the translations there and then just commit the translations to git.gnome.org. Is that even possible? Heck, even with the current git mirror on GitHub translators could edit translations there... With the above I mean that, please, let's not try to reinvent the wheel (pootle, transifex and launchpad already provide online translations), let's try to see how to cooperate, because with the amount of human resources we have right now, I don't really see the point of debating about having online translations on D-L. If someone is coding it *right now*, sure, I will gladly review the patches, try to understand them and push them, but if that's just a wish list, the wish will probably have to wait... Sorry for the long rant. Happy translating! Cheers, [1] D-L comes from a tool created by the French team, still we just got a mail from a small team as little as 2 translators which of course wants to spend time translating not developing tools El dc 28 de 08 de 2013 a les 12:42 +0200, en/na fr33domlo...@mailoo.org va escriure: Hello, Long time ago a web interface for translators was discussed: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2005-March/msg00250.html Since then many things have changed: The software evolved and projects began using web interfaces for translators. As a potential translator, I feel that spending bits of spare time on translation (even just as a way to relax, instead of zombie-browsing social networks) can be much easier if I have a simple web interface. I don't mind using a desktop app like GTranslator which I have installed, but an interface can make it easier to find files and send translations. Currently, translation requires that you read guides and understand how to find the files in a git repo, fetch them, generate POT files, fill in strings, commit the translation back to the repo, update the ChangeLog, etc. And this is just the simple case when everything works as expected. I have a feeling (maybe I'm wrong) that the need to learn the process scares off some users. Translation is relatively easy, and knowing the language is most of what you need. But without a staight-forward interface, less people help. I'd like to suggest again (last time is 2005, see above) that Gnome gets a web interface for translators. Instead of just few technical people translating for a language, we could have much more. Of course, it may be possible to attract people in other ways, which are very welcome too :-] fr33domlover ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n -- Gil Forcada [ca] guifi.net - una xarxa lliure que no para de créixer [en] guifi.net - a non-stopping free network bloc: http://gil.badall.net planet: http://planet.guifi.net ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Web interface for translation for GNOME
On 31 August 2013 15:46, Gil Forcada gforc...@gnome.org wrote: [...] a team that decides that it would be useful for them to have an online translation tool could create a project on Launchpad or Transifex, do the translations there and then just commit the translations to git.gnome.org. Is that even possible? This is correct. It could be as easy as: Push English strings from git to Tx: $ git pull $ tx push --source Push translations from Tx to git: $ tx pull --lang pt_BR $ git commit If someone is coding it *right now*, sure, I will gladly review the patches, try to understand them and push them, but if that's just a wish list, the wish will probably have to wait... Having developed this functionality in the past (web editor which commits in repo upon save), I highly recommend against it. It's very error-prone, big can of worms. Also what Gil said, it's not worth the time with all those good tools out there. For what it's worth, the way we worked around it is to actually treat Transifex as the canonical place where translations leave instead of git. Like a VCS for translations on a string-level with many additional metadata Gettext does not support. Git just mirrors this (with automated commit scripts etc). This is also one of the biggest differences with the current GNOME workflow/setup. But, Gil is right, it is possible for specific teams which choose it. Hope this helps. -d -- Dimitris Glezos Transifex: The Multilingual Publishing Revolution https://www.transifex.com/ ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Web interface for translation for GNOME
Thanks for the input. Actually I was talking about a a tool like DL (I don't like online translation, I prefer download-translate-upload). So after I was refered to DL and I browsed in it, I realized the problem is already solved: We already have the tool I was looking for. Now I just need to start translating :-) :כתב Gil Forcada, 2013-09-01 00:46 בתאריך Hi, Sorry for not replying in-thread and just jumping here to dump my ideas/thoughts on it... So to be web-translation or not... For me the important question here is if it's as an add-on or as a complete and fixed part of it, I mean, could everyone keep their own way of working of they must use this new way? Most, if not all, of our translators in GNOME are also translating other projects, be it KDE, GNU, apps hosted in Transifex, in Launchpad... So (IMHO) the most important thing to do is to not get in their way. If they want to set up their pootle instance and put together all their GNOME, KDE, LXDE, Mozilla, LibreOffice translations to reuse the pootle server, fine with me and great for them. If they use regular D-L workflow (download the po file, translate, re-upload and so on) fine by me and great for them. Our user base (Free Software translators) is so diverse and different from country to country[1] that is quite impossible to get everyone happy. On the other side, or even more important, if the developer base (developers creating Free Software CAT tools) is so small (and on D-L near to non-existent) I would not expect blue dreams coming true from their side. Probably I am talking trash here (and correct me please) but a team that decides that it would be useful for them to have an online translation tool could create a project on Launchpad or Transifex, do the translations there and then just commit the translations to git.gnome.org. Is that even possible? Heck, even with the current git mirror on GitHub translators could edit translations there... With the above I mean that, please, let's not try to reinvent the wheel (pootle, transifex and launchpad already provide online translations), let's try to see how to cooperate, because with the amount of human resources we have right now, I don't really see the point of debating about having online translations on D-L. If someone is coding it *right now*, sure, I will gladly review the patches, try to understand them and push them, but if that's just a wish list, the wish will probably have to wait... Sorry for the long rant. Happy translating! Cheers, [1] D-L comes from a tool created by the French team, still we just got a mail from a small team as little as 2 translators which of course wants to spend time translating not developing tools El dc 28 de 08 de 2013 a les 12:42 +0200, en/na fr33domlover@mailoo.orgva escriure: Hello, Long time ago a web interface for translators was discussed: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2005-March/msg00250.html [1] Since then many things have changed: The software evolved and projects began using web interfaces for translators. As a potential translator, I feel that spending bits of spare time on translation (even just as a way to relax, instead of zombie-browsing social networks) can be much easier if I have a simple web interface. I don't mind using a desktop app like GTranslator which I have installed, but an interface can make it easier to find files and send translations. Currently, translation requires that you read guides and understand how to find the files in a git repo, fetch them, generate POT files, fill in strings, commit the translation back to the repo, update the ChangeLog, etc. And this is just the simple case when everything works as expected. I have a feeling (maybe I'm wrong) that the need to learn the process scares off some users. Translation is relatively easy, and knowing the language is most of what you need. But without a staight-forward interface, less people help. I'd like to suggest again (last time is 2005, see above) that Gnome gets a web interface for translators. Instead of just few technical people translating for a language, we could have much more. Of course, it may be possible to attract people in other ways, which are very welcome too :-] fr33domlover ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n [2] Links: -- [1] https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2005-March/msg00250.html [2] https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Web interface for translation for GNOME
Hi Dimitris, I don't think downloading a file and opening it (4 o 5 mouse clicks?) make the translation process hard for nobody. As a translator, you may have 4 or 5 PO file to translate (doing a great work!) but as a coordinator, you may have those 4 or 5 PO files to review and commit multiplied for your active translators, plus your own PO files... sorry if I make my translators life harder, but I also have limited time, and need a tool that helps me to quickly review a translation and also lets me track the module's translation history. Also, we have several roles: translator, proofreader and commiter. Hiding GNOME's infraestructure to plain translators may avoid them grow up and acquire knowledge about how translations workflow works. If I have a lot of translators but have no proofreaders nor commiters, workflow will be slower, and the number and the quality of the translations will fall down. In the other hand, it has also benn commented above, Transifex doesn't work directly with the repo, so statistics are not reliable. DL is good for me, and we can also improve it if we consider it's missing any feature, so +1 to DL. Best regards 2013/8/29 Dimitris Glezos dimit...@glezos.com On 28 August 2013 22:49, Marek Černocký ma...@manet.cz wrote: Fran Dieguez píše v Čt 29. 08. 2013 v 00:10 +0200: In small teams as our Galician team, we have a lot of problems to maintain translators just because people that could help us with translations doesn't have a lot of technical background. Even if our workflow is as simple as download a file, edit it and upload it. This is a certain barrier for the selection translators. Who has problem with such primitive operations, he will be difficult to produce high quality translations. Good knowledge of language is base but some technical knowledge is necessary too. Ubuntu has web interface for translation and translation quality is poor in comparison with Gnome. Based on my experience, usually the problem in community translations is that people have a limited time and energy to contribute. A fluid translation process is key. Translator will enter translation mode and just go on to work on as many entities as possible. Interrupting to do manual work (like downloading/uploading/open-in-poedit) just makes it harder. The assumption behind this is, if a person has 1 hour to invest, we want him to be translating the 58 minutes of that hour. Additionally, interaction with other users through @messages for questions, suggestions, votes adds the social element. These will make him more productive, happier and the quality will go way higher. This is why in Transifex, we want to reach a point where people open the editor and just go on, not even switching between projects and files. Discussions reviews on translations happen in the editor itself etc. Smoother, more focused translation work = A Good Thing™. -d -- Dimitris Glezos https://www.transifex.com/ ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Web interface for translation for GNOME
On 08/30/2013 12:33 PM, � wrote: Hi Dimitris, I don't think downloading a file and opening it (4 o 5 mouse clicks?) make the translation process hard for nobody. Of course not, but what about all those important features like glossary, translation memory to bring consistency across? It takes lot of efforts to bring consistent and quality translations. Please don't compare or mix them with logical steps required for submitting translations. As a translator, you may have 4 or 5 PO file to translate (doing a great work!) but as a coordinator, you may have those 4 or 5 PO files to review and commit multiplied for your active translators, plus your own PO files... sorry if I make my translators life harder, but I also have limited time, and need a tool that helps me to quickly review a translation and also lets me track the module's translation history. As a co-ordinator for Gujarati language I would also want to review or commit translations easily without having a hassle. Of course I need handful of resources to review or assess translation quality. How would you do that off-line? Even if I have those offline today, it might get lost when team changes, members changes, co-ordinators changes. So, having an online resource in-built on the web translation tools makes it consistent. Also, we have several roles: translator, proofreader and commiter. Hiding GNOME's infraestructure to plain translators may avoid them grow up and acquire knowledge about how translations workflow works. If I have a lot of translators but have no proofreaders nor commiters, workflow will be slower, and the number and the quality of the translations will fall down. Workflows followed here are for technical people, but not for translators, not for language experts or linguists who can give you the best quality translations. If you have lot of translators you should have proofreaders or committers. In the other hand, it has also benn commented above, Transifex doesn't work directly with the repo, so statistics are not reliable. As long as the translations are synced by the developers you should get the accurate stats. Not part of translators job to worry about. DL is good for me, and we can also improve it if we consider it's missing any feature, so +1 to DL. If DL has online translation features, +1 from me as well. Best regards Thanks -- Regards, Ankit Patel http://www.ankit644.com/ http://fuelproject.org/gilt2013/index ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Web interface for translation for GNOME
As a co-ordinator for Gujarati language I would also want to review or commit translations easily without having a hassle. Of course I need handful of resources to review or assess translation quality. How would you do that off-line? Even if I have those offline today, it might get lost when team changes, members changes, co-ordinators changes. So, having an online resource in-built on the web translation tools makes it consistent. Using DL you cann see differences between git's PO file and the uploaded one, so review is not a problem. Translation memory can be easily and used with Gtranslator, and glossary is something that each translator/translation team must do itself. Also, we have several roles: translator, proofreader and commiter. Hiding GNOME's infraestructure to plain translators may avoid them grow up and acquire knowledge about how translations workflow works. If I have a lot of translators but have no proofreaders nor commiters, workflow will be slower, and the number and the quality of the translations will fall down. Workflows followed here are for technical people, but not for translators, not for language experts or linguists who can give you the best quality translations. If you have lot of translators you should have proofreaders or committers. I disagree. The workflow using in DL is really simple. Just create an account, join a team download a PO file, translate a upload it. AFAIK, Trasinfex is pretty similar to this workflow. Also, note that many of the GNOME translators aren't linguists nor language experts. They are people that use and know about GNU/Linux and GNOME and want to collaborate with it. I always recommend to translators the same: first use it and then, translate it. We use a very specific language in our software, so we need people with technical background. Of course, they must have grammar skills, but if they don't know what a repository, an slider or a buffer is, they will have serious problems to translate most of the GNOME modules. Note that reaching the role of proofreader or commiter takes a long time (at least in the Spanish team). To be a good proofreader, you first have to translate without fails, and it takes time. Also note that people sometimes gets tired of translations and magically dissapear (including proofreaders). In the other hand, it has also benn commented above, Transifex doesn't work directly with the repo, so statistics are not reliable. As long as the translations are synced by the developers you should get the accurate stats. Not part of translators job to worry about. No. Translators need to manage their translations, so they need to have real-time updated statistics. Developers have to develope, and don't worry about commiting translations. I've used Transifex in several projects and I never know what happens with my translations. Are they commited into the repository, are they queued, have been rejected? Same case with projects managing translations with bugzilla. Reports can be waiting review for months... We are disussing about using an external tool to manage our translations, and it has derived in a discussion about workflow, which is something special for each team, but we are missing something I think is really important. How should we use Transifex? I mean, is it a free software that we can install and configure in a GNOME server or it's an external service? How customizable is it? Personally, I would not like to delegate our translation statistics and web interface in an external tool... DL is good for me, and we can also improve it if we consider it's missing any feature, so +1 to DL. If DL has online translation features, +1 from me as well. Best regards Thanks -- Regards, Ankit Patel http://www.ankit644.com/ http://fuelproject.org/**gilt2013/indexhttp://fuelproject.org/gilt2013/index __**_ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/**mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18nhttps://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Web interface for translation for GNOME
I like the Transifex interface; they have come a long way. Workflow-wise, I have identified one serious problem though: Wile changing a translation I had previously approved (I am susually my own proofreader, because there are only 2 people on the planet who localize into Scottish Gaelic for OS software), the string still stayed approved instead of going back on the to proofread list. So, we'd better sick to DL or run our own pootle server. And going a bit off topic, I would very much appreciate if somebody could approve my request to be a committer that I filed quite a few weeks ago. As I said, there are only 2 people on this planet for the job, and if I don't get access, who will commit my translations? Whom do I contact? 30/08/2013 16:48, sgrìobh Daniel Mustieles García: As a co-ordinator for Gujarati language I would also want to review or commit translations easily without having a hassle. Of course I need handful of resources to review or assess translation quality. How would you do that off-line? Even if I have those offline today, it might get lost when team changes, members changes, co-ordinators changes. So, having an online resource in-built on the web translation tools makes it consistent. Using DL you cann see differences between git's PO file and the uploaded one, so review is not a problem. Translation memory can be easily and used with Gtranslator, and glossary is something that each translator/translation team must do itself. Also, we have several roles: translator, proofreader and commiter. Hiding GNOME's infraestructure to plain translators may avoid them grow up and acquire knowledge about how translations workflow works. If I have a lot of translators but have no proofreaders nor commiters, workflow will be slower, and the number and the quality of the translations will fall down. Workflows followed here are for technical people, but not for translators, not for language experts or linguists who can give you the best quality translations. If you have lot of translators you should have proofreaders or committers. I disagree. The workflow using in DL is really simple. Just create an account, join a team download a PO file, translate a upload it. AFAIK, Trasinfex is pretty similar to this workflow. Also, note that many of the GNOME translators aren't linguists nor language experts. They are people that use and know about GNU/Linux and GNOME and want to collaborate with it. I always recommend to translators the same: first use it and then, translate it. We use a very specific language in our software, so we need people with technical background. Of course, they must have grammar skills, but if they don't know what a repository, an slider or a buffer is, they will have serious problems to translate most of the GNOME modules. Note that reaching the role of proofreader or commiter takes a long time (at least in the Spanish team). To be a good proofreader, you first have to translate without fails, and it takes time. Also note that people sometimes gets tired of translations and magically dissapear (including proofreaders). In the other hand, it has also benn commented above, Transifex doesn't work directly with the repo, so statistics are not reliable. As long as the translations are synced by the developers you should get the accurate stats. Not part of translators job to worry about. No. Translators need to manage their translations, so they need to have real-time updated statistics. Developers have to develope, and don't worry about commiting translations. I've used Transifex in several projects and I never know what happens with my translations. Are they commited into the repository, are they queued, have been rejected? Same case with projects managing translations with bugzilla. Reports can be waiting review for months... We are disussing about using an external tool to manage our translations, and it has derived in a discussion about workflow, which is something special for each team, but we are missing something I think is really important. How should we use Transifex? I mean, is it a free software that we can install and configure in a GNOME server or it's an external service? How customizable is it? Personally, I would not like to delegate our translation statistics and web interface in an external tool... DL is good for me, and we can also improve it if we consider it's missing any feature, so +1 to DL. If DL has online translation features, +1 from me as well. Best regards Thanks -- Regards, Ankit Patel http://www.ankit644.com/ http://fuelproject.org/__gilt2013/index http://fuelproject.org/gilt2013/index _ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org mailto:gnome-i18n@gnome.org
Re: Web interface for translation for GNOME
On 28 August 2013 22:49, Marek Černocký ma...@manet.cz wrote: Fran Dieguez píše v Čt 29. 08. 2013 v 00:10 +0200: In small teams as our Galician team, we have a lot of problems to maintain translators just because people that could help us with translations doesn't have a lot of technical background. Even if our workflow is as simple as download a file, edit it and upload it. This is a certain barrier for the selection translators. Who has problem with such primitive operations, he will be difficult to produce high quality translations. Good knowledge of language is base but some technical knowledge is necessary too. Ubuntu has web interface for translation and translation quality is poor in comparison with Gnome. Based on my experience, usually the problem in community translations is that people have a limited time and energy to contribute. A fluid translation process is key. Translator will enter translation mode and just go on to work on as many entities as possible. Interrupting to do manual work (like downloading/uploading/open-in-poedit) just makes it harder. The assumption behind this is, if a person has 1 hour to invest, we want him to be translating the 58 minutes of that hour. Additionally, interaction with other users through @messages for questions, suggestions, votes adds the social element. These will make him more productive, happier and the quality will go way higher. This is why in Transifex, we want to reach a point where people open the editor and just go on, not even switching between projects and files. Discussions reviews on translations happen in the editor itself etc. Smoother, more focused translation work = A Good Thing™. -d -- Dimitris Glezos https://www.transifex.com/ ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Web interface for translation for GNOME
Hello, Long time ago a web interface for translators was discussed: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2005-March/msg00250.html Since then many things have changed: The software evolved and projects began using web interfaces for translators. As a potential translator, I feel that spending bits of spare time on translation (even just as a way to relax, instead of zombie-browsing social networks) can be much easier if I have a simple web interface. I don't mind using a desktop app like GTranslator which I have installed, but an interface can make it easier to find files and send translations. Currently, translation requires that you read guides and understand how to find the files in a git repo, fetch them, generate POT files, fill in strings, commit the translation back to the repo, update the ChangeLog, etc. And this is just the simple case when everything works as expected. I have a feeling (maybe I'm wrong) that the need to learn the process scares off some users. Translation is relatively easy, and knowing the language is most of what you need. But without a staight-forward interface, less people help. I'd like to suggest again (last time is 2005, see above) that Gnome gets a web interface for translators. Instead of just few technical people translating for a language, we could have much more. Of course, it may be possible to attract people in other ways, which are very welcome too :-] fr33domlover ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Web interface for translation for GNOME
On Wed, 2013-08-28 at 12:42 +0200, fr33domlo...@mailoo.org wrote: Since then many things have changed: The software evolved and projects began using web interfaces for translators. As a potential translator, I feel that spending bits of spare time on translation (even just as a way to relax, instead of zombie-browsing social networks) can be much easier if I have a simple web interface. I don't mind using a desktop app like GTranslator which I have installed, but an interface can make it easier to find files and send translations. There are a number of established web services nowadays, like Transifex. Currently, translation requires that you read guides and understand how to find the files in a git repo, fetch them, generate POT files, That's simply not true. If you are a translator you go to http://l10n.gnome.org/ and download your file, edit it with a local translation tool, and upload it again. andre -- Andre Klapper | ak...@gmx.net http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/ ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Web interface for translation for GNOME
On 28 August 2013 04:51, Andre Klapper ak...@gmx.net wrote: On Wed, 2013-08-28 at 12:42 +0200, fr33domlo...@mailoo.org wrote: Since then many things have changed: The software evolved and projects began using web interfaces for translators. As a potential translator, I feel that spending bits of spare time on translation (even just as a way to relax, instead of zombie-browsing social networks) can be much easier if I have a simple web interface. I don't mind using a desktop app like GTranslator which I have installed, but an interface can make it easier to find files and send translations. There are a number of established web services nowadays, like Transifex. In case it helps putting some context, here is how the Transifex Web Editor looks like today: http://cl.ly/image/0m3O1M1r3M0x -d -- Dimitris Glezos Transifex: The Multilingual Publishing Revolution https://www.transifex.com/ ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Web interface for translation for GNOME
On 28/08/13 13:51, Andre Klapper wrote: That's simply not true. If you are a translator you go to http://l10n.gnome.org/ and download your file, edit it with a local translation tool, and upload it again. Having a web interface for translate GNOME could simplify our current workflow for people that are not tech savvy. In small teams as our Galician team, we have a lot of problems to maintain translators just because people that could help us with translations doesn't have a lot of technical background. Even if our workflow is as simple as download a file, edit it and upload it. A lot of people have given up translating just because is a tedious task (maybe not for me, and for people that got used to it). An ideal workflow could be: - Sing up in this (xxx) service. - Enroll our team - Translate what ever you want online - And our reviewers will do they work after yours. Obviously this online tool have to enable us to download those translations to review them manually or with some custom tools (pology, language-tools, custom scripts, etc). Just my honest opinion. I don't know what other language groups members think, but definitely could be a major improvement in our ~daily work translating GNOME. Regards ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Web interface for translation for GNOME
2013/8/29 Fran Dieguez fran.dieg...@mabishu.com: On 28/08/13 13:51, Andre Klapper wrote: That's simply not true. If you are a translator you go to http://l10n.gnome.org/ and download your file, edit it with a local translation tool, and upload it again. Having a web interface for translate GNOME could simplify our current workflow for people that are not tech savvy. In small teams as our Galician team, we have a lot of problems to maintain translators just because people that could help us with translations doesn't have a lot of technical background. Even if our workflow is as simple as download a file, edit it and upload it. A lot of people have given up translating just because is a tedious task (maybe not for me, and for people that got used to it). An ideal workflow could be: - Sing up in this (xxx) service. - Enroll our team - Translate what ever you want online - And our reviewers will do they work after yours. Obviously this online tool have to enable us to download those translations to review them manually or with some custom tools (pology, language-tools, custom scripts, etc). Just my honest opinion. I don't know what other language groups members think, but definitely could be a major improvement in our ~daily work translating GNOME. Regards If I'm not mistaken, LXDE translators are using pootle and I also heard there's a GNOME translation team also being using it. I also have asked somewhat similar question a few years ago here and was too lazy to configure it. By it I meant pootle server. http://pootle.translatehouse.org/ -- Regards, Umarzuki Mochlis http://debmal.my ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Web interface for translation for GNOME
For what is worth, Xfce uses Transifex to manage translations. it used to be an instance installed in Xfce servers for long time, but recently it migrated to the hosted version (in transifex.com). Two issues were identified and might never be solved: translators' comments are removed by the Tx [1] and old/obsolete messages marked by gettext are also removed [2]. In spite of that, its Web Editor is indeed good. My opinion, if it counts, I prefer Damned Lies the way it is today. [1] http://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce-i18n/2013-July/008500.html [2] http://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce-i18n/2013-August/008534.html Cheers, Rafael Ferreira 2013/8/28 Umarzuki Mochlis umarz...@gmail.com 2013/8/29 Fran Dieguez fran.dieg...@mabishu.com: On 28/08/13 13:51, Andre Klapper wrote: That's simply not true. If you are a translator you go to http://l10n.gnome.org/ and download your file, edit it with a local translation tool, and upload it again. Having a web interface for translate GNOME could simplify our current workflow for people that are not tech savvy. In small teams as our Galician team, we have a lot of problems to maintain translators just because people that could help us with translations doesn't have a lot of technical background. Even if our workflow is as simple as download a file, edit it and upload it. A lot of people have given up translating just because is a tedious task (maybe not for me, and for people that got used to it). An ideal workflow could be: - Sing up in this (xxx) service. - Enroll our team - Translate what ever you want online - And our reviewers will do they work after yours. Obviously this online tool have to enable us to download those translations to review them manually or with some custom tools (pology, language-tools, custom scripts, etc). Just my honest opinion. I don't know what other language groups members think, but definitely could be a major improvement in our ~daily work translating GNOME. Regards If I'm not mistaken, LXDE translators are using pootle and I also heard there's a GNOME translation team also being using it. I also have asked somewhat similar question a few years ago here and was too lazy to configure it. By it I meant pootle server. http://pootle.translatehouse.org/ -- Regards, Umarzuki Mochlis http://debmal.my ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Web interface for translation for GNOME
I agree with Rafael Ferreira, and it is important to add that Transifex shows translation statistics based on the po file and not based on what is really in the project´s directory tree. For example, some files that are 100% translated in pt_BR weren´t pushed yet to some modules. When DL shows 100% translated, it means that this file is already in a module´s directory. I also don´t trust at all in transifex way to handle carriage return and line feed (\n) characters, because when I translated a project file, it added unwanted spaces at translation web view, which I noticed when I compared the po file and the Transifex´s web view version. So, at my humble opinion, Damned Lies is good for us. And can be improved in order to add some new features, to make it even better. Best Regards, Enrico. Em 28/08/2013 20:36, Rafael Ferreira escreveu: For what is worth, Xfce uses Transifex to manage translations. it used to be an instance installed in Xfce servers for long time, but recently it migrated to the hosted version (in transifex.com http://transifex.com). Two issues were identified and might never be solved: translators' comments are removed by the Tx [1] and old/obsolete messages marked by gettext are also removed [2]. In spite of that, its Web Editor is indeed good. My opinion, if it counts, I prefer Damned Lies the way it is today. [1] http://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce-i18n/2013-July/008500.html [2] http://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce-i18n/2013-August/008534.html Cheers, Rafael Ferreira ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Web interface for translation for GNOME
Fran Dieguez píše v Čt 29. 08. 2013 v 00:10 +0200: On 28/08/13 13:51, Andre Klapper wrote: That's simply not true. If you are a translator you go to http://l10n.gnome.org/ and download your file, edit it with a local translation tool, and upload it again. Having a web interface for translate GNOME could simplify our current workflow for people that are not tech savvy. In small teams as our Galician team, we have a lot of problems to maintain translators just because people that could help us with translations doesn't have a lot of technical background. Even if our workflow is as simple as download a file, edit it and upload it. This is a certain barrier for the selection translators. Who has problem with such primitive operations, he will be difficult to produce high quality translations. Good knowledge of language is base but some technical knowledge is necessary too. Ubuntu has web interface for translation and translation quality is poor in comparison with Gnome. Marv A lot of people have given up translating just because is a tedious task (maybe not for me, and for people that got used to it). An ideal workflow could be: - Sing up in this (xxx) service. - Enroll our team - Translate what ever you want online - And our reviewers will do they work after yours. Obviously this online tool have to enable us to download those translations to review them manually or with some custom tools (pology, language-tools, custom scripts, etc). Just my honest opinion. I don't know what other language groups members think, but definitely could be a major improvement in our ~daily work translating GNOME. Regards ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
