[Goanet] Caste and Creed in the 12th Goa Assembly (Miguel Braganza, in cyberspace)
Caste and Creed in the 12th Goa Assembly By Miguel Braganza The people cast their votes -- a full 82% of the eligible voters exercised their franchise to elect a healthy government on 03 March, 2012 -- and the results have been declared on 06 March, 2012, with the BJP as the clear winner. Thanks to the Goa Doot (the Marathi newspaper, associated with the BJP) we have the statistics that is rarely seen in print in the English-language newspapers. Interestingly not a single Bhandari candidate of the Congress has won in 2012, showing a major shift in the vote bank of this largest single block of voters in Goa. Of the 40 MLAs, 26 are Hindus and 14 are Catholics (nominally 'Christian', but comfortable offering prayers and/or coconut in a temple or a chaddar in a mosque, and the second of the Ten Commandment be damned). There is one more than the 13 Catholics in the 11th Assembly. The four Saraswats are divided 1 in the BJP (Prabhu Parrikar), 1 Congress (Kamat), 1 Independent-South (Sardessai) and 1 Independent-North (Khaunte/Counto). Other than the 4 Saraswat Brahmins (Bamonn), the rest are Bhandari, Maratha, Brahman (Bhott), ST (Gawddi, Kunbi, Velip) or SC (Reserved Constituency only). Among the 26 Hindus there are 10 OBC (including 7 Bhandari), 6 Maratha, 2 Brahman, 3 ST, 1 SC and 4 Saraswats. The BJP-MGP-supported Independents combine has 26 MLAs. with 3 from MGP and 2 Independents committed before the elections. The GVP has given unconditional support, swelling the Treasury side to 28 MLAs, if accepted. The BJP has 21 MLAs and their break up is as under: Saraswat 1 (Manohar Parrikar) Bhandari 7 (Dayanand Mandrekar, Dilip Parulekar, Kiran Kandolkar,Vishnu Wagh, Mahadev Naik, Milind Naik and Subash Naik), Other OBC 3, Maratha 3 (Laxmikant Parsdekar, Dr. Promod Sawant and Subhash Phaldesai), SC 1 (Rajendra Arlekar), ST 2 (Ramesh Tawadkar, Ganesh Gaonkar) and 6 Catholics The 2 independents supported by BJP are both Catholics. The 2 GVP MLAs who have extended post-poll support to BJP are also Catholics. ENDS [Based on a report in Goa Doot, 8 March, 2012, page 3 top.] --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] Caste and Creed
--- On Tue, 8/17/10, Nascy Caldeira nascy...@yahoo.com.au wrote: Vasant has delared he does not believe in caste and or casteism, he is just born into it. He is a good man.. I accept that. Nascimento, Are you a good man? Do Vasant and Sameer believe you are a good man? Cheers, Santosh --- On Tue, 8/17/10, Nascy Caldeira nascy...@yahoo.com.au wrote: Santosh, (the pretender Agnostic) Why should I tell anyone, anything. I have written to the Forum. Vasant has delared he does not believe in caste and or casteism, he is just born into it. He is a good man.. I accept that. But U Santosh the twister has made no such declaration. Why? because U are a Casteist? Or are you a Sudhir masquerading as a brahmin or neo brahmin? I am not particularly interested in what U are. I am interested in forging a Casteless Society in India. And as for me, I am who I am. Not a Casteist! A concerned Indian for the welfare and freedom of the masses from Dominating Castes. I hope YOU will do likewise. Nascy Caldeira --- On Wed, 18/8/10, Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com wrote: Nascimento, I know the truth. I think it hurts you, not me. Why are you afraid to tell Vasant and Sameer that truth about yourself? Can you please answer my question for them? Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Caste and Creed
Santosh, No need to respond to U here. U are gone off track, as usaual. The greatest Twister of facts on Goan cyber forums. Do U know how to do the TWIST. If not please learn and do it; that way the forums will be rid of your faulty logic. Hah hah! I think U are finding that 'the truth hurts'!!! I hope it hurts very badly. Sabash! Nascimento. --- On Tue, 17/8/10, Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com wrote: Nascimento, Can you please explain to Vasant and Sameer why you believe Indian cuisine, Indian cooking and Indian attire, such as poodvem, lungi, angostor, saadi and kaapod are primitive, lowly, uncivilized and unenlightened? Cheers, Santosh --- On Mon, 8/16/10, Nascy Caldeira nascy...@yahoo.com.au wrote: Dear Vasant, U remove the 'serious causes' that are making me point out the Bad things Indian, and I will have no reason to indulge in pointing them out. OK? I have said that U and Sameer have mixed up deliberately, freedom of religion issues etc, with Caste and Casteism practices. Why do U want to confuse and mislead readers? I am trying to be objective against these evils in Hindu society. U think I enjoy writing about these things? NO! I cry when I see such inhumane prejudices are being practiced in the Land of my birth. U guys are impervious to this; as U are one of them. OR Renounce Casteism and Seperatism now. OK? and Redeem yourselves. Are U trying to defend the indefensible? Why do U not answer my question: What is your choice? a casteless society with no caste; or a society where everyone is a brahmin, or everyone is a sudhir. U have not even attenpted to answer the above. Until such time that the whole of India is not a casteless society, I will campaign for it and take it to the world at large, to take action like the world did against South Africa against Racism and Apartheid. The Indian version is worse, as the same is entrenched for centuries by their own people. Indian against Indian. Nascy. --- On Mon, 16/8/10, Vasant Baliga vabal...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear Nascy, Hinduism is one of the oldest and most humane religions-like other religions,it has it's faultlines,caste being one of them and like other religions,it has it's extremist loonies who discredit the religion.The vast majority of Hindus are peaceloving,compassionate and very considerate to all.That will never change- inspite of your statements to the contrary.India's polity testifies to that. I have repeatedly said that Caste has no place in our lives-I do not claim any caste and it is irrelevant to me-Caste is an accident of birth and is abominable.Our family consider ourselves Global Citizens with an open mind and Caste,Creed and Religion is of no consequence to us-good and decent human beings who respect one another are. Best Regards Vasant Baliga
Re: [Goanet] Caste and Creed
Nascimento, I know the truth. I think it hurts you, not me. Why are you afraid to tell Vasant and Sameer that truth about yourself? Can you please answer my question for them? Cheers, Santosh --- On Tue, 8/17/10, Nascy Caldeira nascy...@yahoo.com.au wrote: Santosh, No need to respond to U here. U are gone off track, as usaual. The greatest Twister of facts on Goan cyber forums. Do U know how to do the TWIST. If not please learn and do it; that way the forums will be rid of your faulty logic. Hah hah! I think U are finding that 'the truth hurts'!!! I hope it hurts very badly. Sabash! Nascimento. --- On Tue, 8/17/10, Nascy Caldeira nascy...@yahoo.com.au wrote: Santosh, No need to respond to U here. U are gone off track, as usaual. The greatest Twister of facts on Goan cyber forums. Do U know how to do the TWIST. If not please learn and do it; that way the forums will be rid of your faulty logic. Hah hah! I think U are finding that 'the truth hurts'!!! I hope it hurts very badly. Sabash! Nascimento. --- On Tue, 17/8/10, Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com wrote: Nascimento, Can you please explain to Vasant and Sameer why you believe Indian cuisine, Indian cooking and Indian attire, such as poodvem, lungi, angostor, saadi and kaapod are primitive, lowly, uncivilized and unenlightened? Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Caste and Creed
Santosh, (the pretender Agnostic) Why should I tell anyone, anything. I have written to the Forum. Vasant has delared he does not believe in caste and or casteism, he is just born into it. He is a good man.. I accept that. But U Santosh the twister has made no such declaration. Why? because U are a Casteist? Or are you a Sudhir masquerading as a brahmin or neo brahmin? I am not particularly interested in what U are. I am interested in forging a Casteless Society in India. And as for me, I am who I am. Not a Casteist! A concerned Indian for the welfare and freedom of the masses from Dominating Castes. I hope YOU will do likewise. Nascy Caldeira --- On Wed, 18/8/10, Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com wrote: Nascimento, I know the truth. I think it hurts you, not me. Why are you afraid to tell Vasant and Sameer that truth about yourself? Can you please answer my question for them? Cheers, Santosh --- On Tue, 8/17/10, Nascy Caldeira nascy...@yahoo.com.au wrote: Santosh, No need to respond to U here. U are gone off track, as usaual. The greatest Twister of facts on Goan cyber forums. Do U know how to do the TWIST. If not please learn and do it; that way the forums will be rid of your faulty logic. Hah hah! I think U are finding that 'the truth hurts'!!! I hope it hurts very badly. Sabash! Nascimento. --- On Tue, 8/17/10, Nascy Caldeira nascy...@yahoo.com.au wrote: Santosh, No need to respond to U here. U are gone off track, as usaual. The greatest Twister of facts on Goan cyber forums. Do U know how to do the TWIST. If not please learn and do it; that way the forums will be rid of your faulty logic. Hah hah! I think U are finding that 'the truth hurts'!!! I hope it hurts very badly. Sabash! Nascimento.
[Goanet] Caste and Creed
Dear Nascy, I have gone through all your posts on Goanet.Your posts, responses and your continuing ad hominem attacks on Hinduism and your attempt to defame all Hindus and tar all of them with the same brush is evident and sadly reprehensible and betrays a very prejudiced,hateful and closed mindset.It is apparent that you do not want to engage in a debate based on rationale but continue your onesided demagoguery. Hinduism is one of the oldest and most humane religions-like other religions,it has it's faultlines,caste being one of them and like other religions,it has it's extremist loonies who discredit the religion.The vast majority of Hindus are peaceloving,compassionate and very considerate to all.That will never change- inspite of your statements to the contrary.India's polity testifies to that. I have repeatedly said that Caste has no place in our lives-I do not claim any caste and it is irrelevant to me-Caste is an accident of birth and is abominable.Our family consider ourselves Global Citizens with an open mind and Caste,Creed and Religion is of no consequence to us-good and decent human beings who respect one another are. All religions have faultlines and none are flawless,as you may suggest.One Goanetter proudly claimed recently that the Goa Archdiocese created a single Bamonn homogeneous strain unlike Hinduism where there were many shades of Bamonns!!.Isn't that great? Cornel, you may not agree with me, but I think we should pay tribute to the colonial Catholic Church of Goa for making Catholic bamons of Goa a rather homogeneous group. Unlike Goan Hindu brahmins who claim themselves to be Gaud Saraswats, Prabhus, Daivadnyas, Karhades, Deshasthas, Chitpavans, etc. Goan catholic bamons are simply bamons, period; though a few may claim themselves to be of Gaud Saraswat denomination.(vide Gazetteer of India - Goa, Daman Diu ) When *I say* colonial Catholic Church, it does not necessarily mean the Portuguese Patriarch, but his no: 2 in the Goa diocese namely '' A sua santidade bramanica ''the Vicar General, who was inevitably a Goan bamon. -Antonio Menezes India is today run by a duo-Italian Catholic and Sikh-it speaks volumes of the innate humanity of it's people,the majority of whom are Hindus.When Rahul Gandhi was recently asked about his identity-he said-my mother is Italian Catholic and my Grandfather was Parsi-but,I am a proud Indian.Jai Hind to that. I hope you do some soul searching and one day you see the light and renounce your hatred for Hindus,which seems to have consumed you.It does you no credit except scoring some brownie points on Goanet.There is no confusion or obfuscation at all -it is now pretty clear where you are coming from. No hard feelings at all from my side, Nascy Baab-everyone is entitled to his or her views and prejudices!!The Jesuits taught me in my childhood and in college, a long time ago, to meet bigotry and hatred with love and compassion-and so in that spirit, I send you my very best. Lets move on. Dev Boren Korum Best Regards Vasant Baliga
Re: [Goanet] Caste and Creed
Dear Vasant, U remove the 'serious causes' that are making me point out the Bad things Indian, and I will have no reason to indulge in pointing them out. OK? I have said that U and Sameer have mixed up deliberately, freedom of religion issues etc, with Caste and Casteism practices. Why do U want to confuse and mislead readers? I am trying to be objective against these evils in Hindu society. U think I enjoy writing about these things? NO! I cry when I see such inhumane prejudices are being practiced in the Land of my birth. U guys are impervious to this; as U are one of them. OR Renounce Casteism and Seperatism now. OK? and Redeem yourselves. Are U trying to defend the indefensible? Why do U not answer my question: What is your choice? a casteless society with no caste; or a society where everyone is a brahmin, or everyone is a sudhir. U have not even attenpted to answer the above. Until such time that the whole of India is not a casteless society, I will campaign for it and take it to the world at large, to take action like the world did against South Africa against Racism and Apartheid. The Indian version is worse, as the same is entrenched for centuries by their own people. Indian against Indian. Nascy. --- On Mon, 16/8/10, Vasant Baliga vabal...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear Nascy, Hinduism is one of the oldest and most humane religions-like other religions,it has it's faultlines,caste being one of them and like other religions,it has it's extremist loonies who discredit the religion.The vast majority of Hindus are peaceloving,compassionate and very considerate to all.That will never change- inspite of your statements to the contrary.India's polity testifies to that. I have repeatedly said that Caste has no place in our lives-I do not claim any caste and it is irrelevant to me-Caste is an accident of birth and is abominable.Our family consider ourselves Global Citizens with an open mind and Caste,Creed and Religion is of no consequence to us-good and decent human beings who respect one another are. Best Regards Vasant Baliga
Re: [Goanet] Caste and Creed
Nascimento, Can you please explain to Vasant and Sameer why you believe Indian cuisine, Indian cooking and Indian attire, such as poodvem, lungi, angostor, saadi and kaapod are primitive, lowly, uncivilized and unenlightened? Cheers, Santosh --- On Mon, 8/16/10, Nascy Caldeira nascy...@yahoo.com.au wrote: Dear Vasant, U remove the 'serious causes' that are making me point out the Bad things Indian, and I will have no reason to indulge in pointing them out. OK? I have said that U and Sameer have mixed up deliberately, freedom of religion issues etc, with Caste and Casteism practices. Why do U want to confuse and mislead readers? I am trying to be objective against these evils in Hindu society. U think I enjoy writing about these things? NO! I cry when I see such inhumane prejudices are being practiced in the Land of my birth. U guys are impervious to this; as U are one of them. OR Renounce Casteism and Seperatism now. OK? and Redeem yourselves. Are U trying to defend the indefensible? Why do U not answer my question: What is your choice? a casteless society with no caste; or a society where everyone is a brahmin, or everyone is a sudhir. U have not even attenpted to answer the above. Until such time that the whole of India is not a casteless society, I will campaign for it and take it to the world at large, to take action like the world did against South Africa against Racism and Apartheid. The Indian version is worse, as the same is entrenched for centuries by their own people. Indian against Indian. Nascy. --- On Mon, 16/8/10, Vasant Baliga vabal...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear Nascy, Hinduism is one of the oldest and most humane religions-like other religions,it has it's faultlines,caste being one of them and like other religions,it has it's extremist loonies who discredit the religion.The vast majority of Hindus are peaceloving,compassionate and very considerate to all.That will never change- inspite of your statements to the contrary.India's polity testifies to that. I have repeatedly said that Caste has no place in our lives-I do not claim any caste and it is irrelevant to me-Caste is an accident of birth and is abominable.Our family consider ourselves Global Citizens with an open mind and Caste,Creed and Religion is of no consequence to us-good and decent human beings who respect one another are. Best Regards Vasant Baliga
Re: [Goanet] Caste and Creed
Dear Vasant, I have only pointed at Indian Hindus for the cste system prevailing in India and amongst Indians abroad too. U have gone on a tangent and using Sameer's words as my posting. That is where Sameer is trying to confuse. Neither have I spoken of vote banks politics here and only of the casteist saffron brigade. I have spoken purely of the evil of caste and casteism, that prevails only in India and only among Indians abroad. Here even U are trying to confuse people about Class distinctions and Caste distinctions. U guys are saying that, one has to be born a Brahmin to be a Brahmin, and once a Brahmin, always a Brahmin! Does this not imply racism? If I bring a harijan , educated and scholarly in Hindu religion, will you ordain this persona Brahmin? NO U will not. Or will M. Parrikar loose his marbles and be harijan one day? That is casteism. A person born into a caste is always there, even in so called re -incarnation? He/she cannnot shake it off! 'Cause of the imposed system by the upper castes! That is Casteism quite different to Class distinction that u are trying to get 'readers' confused with! If it were not, then there would be no caste names, in the first place. Then U are talking about Bhuddists. There are hardly any Bhuddists in India to make an impact. Bhuddists and Bhuddism thrived all around India; Buddism was driven out of India five centuries ago? Why and by the upper casted Hindus, as then, there would be no caste prevailing and all would be equal, except in individual or family or group achievements. The caste Hindus never liked it, so they drove Bhudda and his teachings away. A casteless society,that is what I want for India. Therefore RENOUNCE CASTEISM NOW, and get into a program to Eradicate This EVIL. U do not have to remove yourself from the caste that U are born into, if U are in a priveledged caste! But do denounce Casteism. That is a BIG Difference! Caste or Race is neutral to Christianity as a religion; there are Christian Hindu, Christian African, Christian Chinese, Christian Europeon, and Christian Mixed persons and so on. So when a Brahmin caste/ race person becomes a Christian he is still a brahmin since he belongs to the race/ caste. All that he has to do is not to practice Casteism (that the Hindus do) or any sly distinctions based on caste system. I think that is being accomplshed by and large among Goan brahmin Christians. The Christian Religion is not about social mores, and accommodates the race/caste the person is born into. His behavior the is for his 'Conscience and his understanding of God's Love. Hindu upper castes are utterly lacking in God's Love for others, more so the so called lower castes. That is what is BAD about the HINDU society, and the Casteists. Vasant, any amount of mixing up of 'Topics' will not get the Mud off the Casteist Hindu. Mud Sticks remember? and it has stuck for centuries. So what are U doing about it. The saffron brigade is trying to entrench this position by trying to get into power in New Delhi, and then they will just ignore all who are not upper caste Hindus and even have a POGRAM, like in Modi's Gujerat. Enough said for now. India must Change now. Either all become Brahmins or all become Sudhir. What is your choice Vasant? No hard feeligs. Nascy. --- On Fri, 13/8/10, Vasant Baliga vabal...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear Nascy, Greetings! I am in agreement about religious reform in India and in Hinduism- and it's impact on other religions and one hopes that it will come in time-but your attempt to blame Hinduism for all the faultlines in other religions in India does not wash and is not borne out by facts. Christianity and Islam are hundreds of years old in India and have allowed the caste and class system to prevail for their own ends,basically to increase the numbers-and how come there is no Casteism among Buddhists?? Do you honestly blame Hindus for the Casteism in Christianity after 400 odd years in Goa?How come the Church did not take a more proactive stance to eradicate Casteism in it's midst and in fact protected it and nurtured it until recently?India came into Goa only in 1961-what happened before that between the Vatican and the Portuguese for 450 years-do you blame Hinduism for that?-And racism and social stratification in Islam is endemic in Arab countries-we have lived in Dubai for many years and know it.So please don't pile on Hindus for the social evils of other religions in India. The BJP does not command 100% of the Hindu vote-remember we had a Christian CM(Congress) in Hindu Andhra Pradesh.So there is no point in blaming the BJP-the Congress is equally responsible as the biggest practitioner of Religious Vote Bank politics.Mayawati formed a coalition in UP between Dalits,Muslims and Brahmins to win the elections-Gandhi ji must be laughing!Rajiv Gandhi with a Parsi father-wore his Brahmanical Sacred Thread
[Goanet] Caste and Creed in Goa
Cornel, you may not agree with me, but I think we should pay tribute to the colonial Catholic Church of Goa for making Catholic bamons of Goa a rather homogeneous group. Unlike Goan Hindu brahmins who claim themselves to be Gaud Saraswats, Prabhus, Daivadnyas, Karhades, Deshasthas, Chitpavans, etc. Goan catholic bamons are simply bamons, period; though a few may claim themselves to be of Gaud Saraswat denomination.(vide Gazetteer of India - Goa, Daman Diu ) When *I say* colonial Catholic Church, it does not necessarily mean the Portuguese Patriarch, but his no: 2 in the Goa diocese namely '' A sua santidade bramanica ''the Vicar General, who was inevitably a Goan bamon.
[Goanet] Caste and creed in Goa
*Caste and creed in Goa* ** All Indians are Hundu Hindu, Hindu Christian and even some are Hindu Muslims; as one Arab muslim said to me once long ago in a Gulf state. Joao worries: I don't understand these contradictory terms. I thought that someone who believes in Krishna is a Hindu, someone who believes in Jesus is a Christian, and someone who believes in Mohamet a Muslim. I am confused ... Help! When I said to him there are many muslims in India; he spokke of them as Hindu Muslim. That surprised me then.
[Goanet] Caste and Creed
Dear Nascy, Greetings! I am in agreement about religious reform in India and in Hinduism- and it's impact on other religions and one hopes that it will come in time-but your attempt to blame Hinduism for all the faultlines in other religions in India does not wash and is not borne out by facts. Christianity and Islam are hundreds of years old in India and have allowed the caste and class system to prevail for their own ends,basically to increase the numbers-and how come there is no Casteism among Buddhists?? Do you honestly blame Hindus for the Casteism in Christianity after 400 odd years in Goa?How come the Church did not take a more proactive stance to eradicate Casteism in it's midst and in fact protected it and nurtured it until recently?India came into Goa only in 1961-what happened before that between the Vatican and the Portuguese for 450 years-do you blame Hinduism for that?-And racism and social stratification in Islam is endemic in Arab countries-we have lived in Dubai for many years and know it.So please don't pile on Hindus for the social evils of other religions in India. The BJP does not command 100% of the Hindu vote-remember we had a Christian CM(Congress) in Hindu Andhra Pradesh.So there is no point in blaming the BJP-the Congress is equally responsible as the biggest practitioner of Religious Vote Bank politics.Mayawati formed a coalition in UP between Dalits,Muslims and Brahmins to win the elections-Gandhi ji must be laughing!Rajiv Gandhi with a Parsi father-wore his Brahmanical Sacred Thread at his Mother's funeral-what does it tell you about the Congress? In the West and in Australia-Casteism comes in different forms-one can call it racism or prejudice-but it exists everywhere-remember the term Boston Brahmin.I know you deny that racism exists in Australia-so be it.Anglo Indians have their own caste system in terms of colour and how British they are. Having lived for many years in New York-I was heartened to read this speech from Mayor Bloomberg-guess who are the vocal opponents of the Mosque-not Hindu Fundamentalists-do you still believe that there is no prejudice among Non Hindus in the West?The Pilgrims came to the promised land in 1620-well after the Portuguese came to Goa!Blame Hindus?Please Nascy -look at it historically and dispassionately. I will leave it to Santosh to answer you about your over the top and under the belt unfair comment about him-anyone knowing Santosh is aware that he is a true rationalist who does not believe in Caste and Creed. I would like to believe that as a true follower of Christ,you are not a Hindu Hater and Baiter and that your harsh words do not necessarily reflect your true beliefs.Your continuing and Ad Hominem bitter attacks on Hindus are disappointing and are neither correct nor fair. Dev Tumka Boren Dis Deum! Regards Vasant Baliga The following are Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg’s remarks as delivered on Governors Island: “We have come here to Governors Island to stand where the earliest settlers first set foot in New Amsterdam, and where the seeds of religious tolerance were first planted. We’ve come here to see the inspiring symbol of liberty that, more than 250 years later, would greet millions of immigrants in the harbor, and we come here to state as strongly as ever – this is the freest City in the world. That’s what makes New York special and different and strong. “Our doors are open to everyone – everyone with a dream and a willingness to work hard and play by the rules. New York City was built by immigrants, and it is sustained by immigrants – by people from more than a hundred different countries speaking more than two hundred different languages and professing every faith. And whether your parents were born here, or you came yesterday, you are a New Yorker. “We may not always agree with every one of our neighbors. That’s life and it’s part of living in such a diverse and dense city. But we also recognize that part of being a New Yorker is living with your neighbors in mutual respect and tolerance. It was exactly that spirit of openness and acceptance that was attacked on 9/11. “On that day, 3,000 people were killed because some murderous fanatics didn’t want us to enjoy the freedom to profess our own faiths, to speak our own minds, to follow our own dreams and to live our own lives. “Of all our precious freedoms, the most important may be the freedom to worship as we wish. And it is a freedom that, even here in a City that is rooted in Dutch tolerance, was hard-won over many years. In the mid-1650s, the small Jewish community living in Lower Manhattan petitioned Dutch Governor Peter Stuyvesant for the right to build a synagogue – and they were turned down. “In 1657, when Stuyvesant also prohibited Quakers from holding meetings, a group of non-Quakers in Queens signed the Flushing Remonstrance, a petition in defense of the right
Re: [Goanet] Caste and Creed in Goa
From: Venantius J Pinto venantius.pi...@gmail.com To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Hi Cornel, I respect your position and your concern with racism. That is a given. ...Some of those ecclesiastics are in happy retirement now. Three others are in Rome for training, and life may change. I mean people become priests for various reasons, including mothers wanting their sons to be Bishops, and possibly Pope. Think about that. Let them deal with their own. What people could do, and it may not be you--unless you are on the ground in Goa, practicing with the people making them aware--helping them see, seek meaning identity within their Christianity. It cannot happen otherwise--almost impossible. ***Dear Venantius J.Pinto, I was laughing when I read that priests embrace priesthood for different reasons, including mothers wanting their sons to be Bishops, and possibly Pope. We do believe in vocation for priesthood, as well as in the providential love of God. I know that you too believe that. Today being a Bishop and Pope is a real burden. I do not think that many want it. Some may aspire to it. But then someone has to be a Bishop and a Pope. That is also God's call. Today many mothers may not want their children to become priests and nuns in this hedonistic society. They may think differently. But the reality is also not much pleasant... There are also priests coming form one-son families. It is a divine vocation. We have to be sure today more than ever about the priesly identity. It is a vocation within the Christian vocation. Thanks for being so much concerned about the Church in Goa. In general, people are not gracious. I have often told my idiotic acquaintances, idiotic friends, and idiotic relatives and family--to choose grace over uncalled for harshness. But also to have that ready in some measure. But this needs discernment. It happens over time. By that point we will be in our late 60s--those among us who are alive. I am strictly talking of my friends, relatives and family. ***I am also feeling it to be funny that you find idiotic friends everywhere. There are always good and bad friends. As Napoleon Buonaparte was praying: Lord, deliver me from my friends. From my enemies can I deliver myself. As you admit, we all need discernment in the Spirit. Regards. Fr.Ivo From: CORNEL DACOSTA cor...@btinternet.com Hi Venantius Ever so well said below that?I can't resist this GoaNet post. Venantius, may I suggest that you could add one more point in your key?first paragraph below.?Belief in and practice of caste is ipso facto?racist and of course, racism?is?abhorred in any civilised society let alone a Christian one. That the Catholic Church in Goa has been complicit in?it for half a millennium and that so many of?the clergy?across its hierarchy in Goa and the Goan Diaspora uphold this foul creed?and never say anything against it surely doesn't say much about the integrity of this religion.?And Vasant, if interested, please see GoaNet archives where I have, over six years at least, written extensively and critically on several dimensions?of caste among the Catholic Goans. I have also done so?elsewhere and continue to do so.? Cornel DaCosta
Re: [Goanet] Caste and Creed in Goa
Dear Vasant and all goanetters, My reply is this: it is simple. All Indians are Hundu Hindu, Hindu Christian and even some are Hindu Muslims; as one Arab muslim said to me once long ago in a Gulf state. When I said to him there are many muslims in India; he spokke of them as Hindu Muslim. That surprised me then. So my conclusion is that the casteism comes from all our Hindu ancestry. It is difficult to shake off the Hindu ancestry and casteism prevailing all around you. I am not making apologies for Hindu Christians, who call their caste, if a superior one. U will notice that Christians witout Hindu ancestry like say some Anglo Indians and foreigners do not have any caste class or bias. Therefore the caste and casteism of the original Hindu, the resident born Indian is to blame for for the CURSE and Ignomany of the Caste System. Only the Hindu remained Hindu community can rid India of this casteism that is Racism, indeed. The Hindus are not doing anything about it. In fact the RSS, the BJP are all casteist and want to enforce casteist Rule everywhere. Look around you! What a SHAME!! In this day and age. How can anyone make eexcuses for such an affront to humanity. Yak! Go and wash your Sins against humanity in the Ganga that is already dirty, with so many Sins washed away over the centuries. Even our rivers cannot escape this dirt and Curse of Hinduism! Dear Vasant, do U not think this problem calls for complete REFORM among Indians? I hope U do. Nascy Caldeira. --- On Thu, 12/8/10, Vasant Baliga vabal...@yahoo.com wrote: Nascy wrote- I wonder, what caste, U G Barad, R Parrikar. M Parrikar, CM Kamat, and other saffron wallahs belong to. And Santosh Helekar, is he of mixed caste? Hindu India is laughable indeed! A BIG LOL. Giving all Indians a BAD Name. I think it is high time that the world community takes action against this type of racism, and segregation. Nascy. Dear Nascy, I can't agree with you more-Hindu India is laughable indeed-the caste system is a scourge and a disgrace-but Catholic Goa and India needs also to do some soul searching.For the last 40 years as I embraced Goa due to marriage, Goan socialising(anywhere) has amazed and shocked me about the concerns of Bamonn,Chaddo,Khapri,Mestizo,Bardezkar etc,etc...just as I thought I was rid of caste! How can the caste system be practised by followers of Jesus-it foxes me-before asking Santosh about his caste-ask yourself- Tun Konnalo?And laugh at yourself Mate Do some research about 1510 onwards in Goa before ridiculing Hinduism-the caste system is alive and thriving in Goa-but only in Hinduism?Gimme a break!! Best Regards Vasant Baliga
Re: [Goanet] Caste and Creed in Goa
Hi Venantius Ever so well said below that I can't resist this GoaNet post. Venantius, may I suggest that you could add one more point in your key first paragraph below. Belief in and practice of caste is ipso facto racist and of course, racism is abhorred in any civilised society let alone a Christian one. That the Catholic Church in Goa has been complicit in it for half a millennium and that so many of the clergy across its hierarchy in Goa and the Goan Diaspora uphold this foul creed and never say anything against it surely doesn't say much about the integrity of this religion. And Vasant, if interested, please see GoaNet archives where I have, over six years at least, written extensively and critically on several dimensions of caste among the Catholic Goans. I have also done so elsewhere and continue to do so. Cornel DaCosta From: Venantius J Pinto venantius.pi...@gmail.com To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Wednesday, 11 August, 2010 22:35:59 Subject: Re: [Goanet] Caste and Creed in Goa Dear Vasant, Christians must not practice caste. Period. THEY MUST NOT/SHOULD NOT in professed egalitarian spirit-have anything to do with caste. This is true, and complex as may become more apparent by the end of this post. The charm of most system is they inherently involve exogamy and endogamy; although remarkably not exclusive Of course people do not wish to loose their sense of belonging, and others want/seek parity and even benign equality, They cannot deal with the idea of being Outcast themselves, but the idea of knowing where they stand as in Tum Konnalo is admirably ingenious don't you think? Most of the are from reasonably superior stock anyways. Besides the Hindus do not need this except for deeper specifics. I lived with a Hindu family for five year, and Baba would say, te vihirintle pav kha'un bhatle gele, but considered me as part of the family. An outsider who had come in, From: Vasant Baliga vabal...@yahoo.com To: Goanet goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: [Goanet] Caste and Creed in Goa (del) How can the caste system be practised by followers of Jesus-it foxes me (del)
Re: [Goanet] Caste and Creed in Goa
From: Vasant Baliga vabal...@yahoo.com Nascy wrote- I wonder, what caste, U G Barad, R Parrikar. M Parrikar, CM Kamat, and other saffron wallahs belong to. And Santosh Helekar, is he of mixed caste? Hindu India is laughable indeed! A BIG LOL. Giving all Indians a BAD Name. I think it is high time that the world community takes action against this type of racism, and segregation. Nascy. Dear Nascy, I can't agree with you more-Hindu India is laughable indeed-the caste system is a scourge and a disgrace-but Catholic Goa and India needs also to do some soul searching. For the last 40 years as I embraced Goa due to marriage, Goan socialising (anywhere) has amazed and shocked me about the concerns of Bamonn, Chaddo, Khapri, Mestizo, Bardezkar etc,etc...just as I thought I was rid of caste! How can the caste system be practised by followers of Jesus-it foxes me-before asking Santosh about his caste-ask yourself- Tun Konnalo?And laugh at yourself Mate Do some research about 1510 onwards in Goa before ridiculing Hinduism-the caste system is alive and thriving in Goa-but only in Hinduism? Gimme a break! Best Regards Vasant Baliga http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_Indian_Christians ***Dear Vasant Baliga and Nasci, It is good to do some soul searching regarding the social evils of the Indians and Goans. We see the differences of Konkani dialects, castes, races in Goa. They are ingrained in our ethos. Dialects bring variety and spice in linguistic life. We find also races, as well as castes. Our ancestors were Hindus, therefore we had Hindu names and Hindu customs and mores. We would like to find out our Hindu roots (ancestors), including their castes. By being Christians, we do not forget our castes, there is nothing wrong in it. What is wrong is to discriminate and oppress our people on the basis of class or caste. St.Francis Xavier would not like the Brahmins, because they were oppressing (they were cunning) the poor people. By being Christians, we know that all are God's children, and therefore, we cannot discriminate and oppress our own brethren. Apartheid is a crime against humanity, casteist untouchability is a crime. Saint Paul had to face the problem of slavery. In the letter to Philemon, Saint Paul urges Philemon to treat his slave, Onesimus, who had stolen from his master and run away from Colossae, --he could have even been killed by the master--, as a brother in the Lord (v.16), because both of them became Christians through the teaching of Paul. Paul expects a change in the system of slavery through Christian teaching and conversion. The system of slavery would be transformed and even disappear smoothly. The caste system will disappear slowly. Caste system was originally based on division of occupation and kept India in equilibrium, but later it became oppressive and anti-human. Christianity urges us to treat well everyone, but it cannot remove the marks of ethnic or caste differences. It is not wrong to know to which class we belong, but it is wrong to oppress people because of lower class. I had intelligent students among the lower classes (which we did not even know sometimes), but I would always encourage the weaker students, of whatever social group they might be coming. In our families, we could not even pronounce the names of castes as bad words. But little by little, we came to know about the background of some families, to which caste they belong. The lifestyle also may change according to class, caste, religion, culture, education, politeness. In the past, the question Tum konnalo? could refer to caste or to family. It remained in the folklore. People would know families from different villages (even in the cities, though a little less) and would be happy to identify them or help them. Cujo filho és? would be a normal question. Hiondu names and surnames would help to know the caste, as even today. But Christian names and surnames removed a lot of guessing. It would be wrong to ill-treat students because of their caste. Regarding marriage, we may encourage intercaste marriage, but we must be careful because of marriage problems due to social condition. It may not be possible to reconcile them or keep them together when conflicts arise. Today there is more mixture of young people. When speaking of caste system in Goa, we have to bear in mind all these factors. Life in Goa is not so bad as it is being depicted, as far as caste system is concerned. Regards. Fr.Ivo To konna'lo? Is one such, with its Several inflexions according to gender and number: Tem konnalem, ti konna'li, te konna'le, tea Konna'leo, Tim konna'lim. Literally, the phrase means, Which family does he belong To? or Who are his parents? It is apparently a simple Interrogative, an expression of normal, healthy curiosity, Expressing the concern that one human being has for another. But to those who know their Konkani and
Re: [Goanet] Caste and Creed in Go
Hi Cornel, I respect your position and your concern with racism. That is a given. My point is to suggest that Christians seek conscience within their Christianities, and not construct a conscience because their behaviors put them on the side of being considered a racist in contemporaneity. I do not want Christians to not do something---considered racist, a racist act, belief, or behavior---only within a secular framework---outside of what is their belief system--church going Christianity. My post is very Christian centered, so the answer has to be sought by us Christians within Christianity, and Christ-centerdness** as also in my case, elsewhere too (which is a bot alien, but that is me). In this post i am not looking outside of Christianity and the pride which Goans take in being Christa ins. Your points are well regarded and well taken. The Church is the Church. One just has to look at the situation of education when pre-independence the Portuguese PM wanted Goans to be educated. What happened? Was that mandate carried out? Could one not helpfully apply the term racism here. But of course! However, what does it say, beyond that; unless one is documenting for scholarship and possibly to make people awareness, and that rarely happens. Some of those ecclesiastics are in happy retirement now. Three others are in Rome for training, and life may change. I mean people become priests for various reasons, including mothers wanting their sons to be Bishops, and possibly Pope. Think about that. Let them deal with their own. What people could do, and it may not be you--unless you are on the ground in Goa, practicing with the people making them aware--helping them see, seek meaning identity within their Christianity. It cannot happen otherwise--almost impossible. In general, people are not gracious. I have often told my idiotic acquaintances, idiotic friends, and idiotic relatives and family--to choose grace over uncalled for harshness. But also to have that ready in some measure. But this needs discernment. It happens over time. By that point we will be in our late 60s--those among us who are alive. I am strictly talking of my friends, relatives and family. venantius j pinto From: CORNEL DACOSTA cor...@btinternet.com To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: Re: [Goanet] Caste and Creed in Goa Message-ID: 478548.33552...@web86604.mail.ird.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi Venantius Ever so well said below that?I can't resist this GoaNet post. Venantius, may I suggest that you could add one more point in your key?first paragraph below.?Belief in and practice of caste is ipso facto?racist and of course, racism?is?abhorred in any civilised society let alone a Christian one. That the Catholic Church in Goa has been complicit in?it for half a millennium and that so many of?the clergy?across its hierarchy in Goa and the Goan Diaspora uphold this foul creed?and never say anything against it surely doesn't say much about the integrity of this religion.?And Vasant, if interested, please see GoaNet archives where I have, over six years at least, written extensively and critically on several dimensions?of caste among the Catholic Goans. I have also done so?elsewhere and continue to do so.? Cornel DaCosta
[Goanet] Caste and creed in Goa
I think in Da mao there is no caste among the Catholics. I wonder why? Is there any study in this respect? I wonder why in Goa the Catholics are defensive? BC My reply is this: it is simple. All Indians are Hundu Hindu, Hindu Christian and even some are Hindu Muslims; as one Arab muslim said to me once long ago in a Gulf state. When I said to him there are many muslims in India; he spokke of them as Hindu Muslim. That surprised me then.
[Goanet] Caste and Creed in Goa
Nascy wrote- I wonder, what caste, U G Barad, R Parrikar. M Parrikar, CM Kamat, and other saffron wallahs belong to. And Santosh Helekar, is he of mixed caste? Hindu India is laughable indeed! A BIG LOL. Giving all Indians a BAD Name. I think it is high time that the world community takes action against this type of racism, and segregation. Nascy. Dear Nascy, I can't agree with you more-Hindu India is laughable indeed-the caste system is a scourge and a disgrace-but Catholic Goa and India needs also to do some soul searching.For the last 40 years as I embraced Goa due to marriage, Goan socialising(anywhere) has amazed and shocked me about the concerns of Bamonn,Chaddo,Khapri,Mestizo,Bardezkar etc,etc...just as I thought I was rid of caste! How can the caste system be practised by followers of Jesus-it foxes me-before asking Santosh about his caste-ask yourself- Tun Konnalo?And laugh at yourself Mate Do some research about 1510 onwards in Goa before ridiculing Hinduism-the caste system is alive and thriving in Goa-but only in Hinduism?Gimme a break!! Best Regards Vasant Baliga http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_Indian_Christians To konna'lo? By Lucio Rodrigues Konkani has its own unique expressions -- words, Phrases, idioms, proverbs, and other folksy Linguistic miracles which defy translation into any Other language. To konna'lo? Is one such, with its Several inflexions according to gender and number: Tem konnalem, ti konna'li, te konna'le, tea Konna'leo, Tim konna'lim. Literally, the phrase means, Which family does he belong To? or Who are his parents? It is apparently a simple Interrogative, an expression of normal, healthy curiosity, Expressing the concern that one human being has for another. But to those who know their Konkani and belong to the social Matrix of Goa, the phrase is far from simple and innocuous. True, it does express curiosity, but the curiosity is not the Elementary curiosity of a mere individual. It is the highly Sophisticated curiosity of the community, or organised Society. The phrase is a masterpiece of verbal economy and Semantic subtlety. It implies a social and moral attitude That is the result of a whole way of life rooted in the soil Of Goa. Though the phrase is known to all, it is never used Indiscriminately. It is not to be bandied about in the street Or in the market-place. You cannot just speak it out glibly, Or shout it out brazenly. Even in the drawing-room or the Dance-hall, you cannot mouth it tactlessly. To do so would be The height of impertinence, and you would be summarily Condemned as a very ill-mannered yokel. In fact, the use of the phrase calls for the proper occasion And situation, the proper place and time, and above all, the Most practised gesture and inflexion of voice. Its utterance Is part of a code. Goan society is based on a traditional hierarchy which has Its origins in ancient Hindu India. It is a hierarchy of many Tiers, arranged in a descending scale, each tier made up of a Homogeneous group, with its own status, its own privileges And responsibilities, its own loyalties, and its own code Of honour, which have to be zealously guarded. An individual's place in this hierarchy is Determined solely by the accident of birth. The Gods decide it all for you: you are born into a Family which belongs to one of the social tiers, And there you belong, there you stay. Like the Fixed stars in the heavens, you have your fixed Station in the social firmament, and your set Orbit. In the good old days, before emigration and the spread of Education began to disturb the feudal stability of life in Goa, everyone knew practically everyone else. Your identity Was known, not only who you were but also where you belonged. This is generally true in the villages even today. Such was The thoroughness with which the hierarchic social system was Perpetuated that a large number of Hindu surnames could be Interpreted as marks of identification which placed you Definitely in one of the social tiers. However, an accident of history took place to disturb the old Social order. Foreign conquest and conversion in the Sixteenth century introduced new ideas of a free and equal Society in Goa. The logic of the principle that all men are Equal was a challenge to the traditional hierarchic practice, And the situation was fraught with perils. But the challenge had to be faced. Habits die hard; Position and privilege cannot be easily Surrendered; group loyalties cultivated over the Centuries cannot be given up. The new ideas of Social mobility were a threat to the homogeneity of The group. The purity of the social group had to be Maintained, the well-being of the members
Re: [Goanet] Caste and Creed in Goa
Dear Vasant, Christians must not practice caste. Period. THEY MUST NOT/SHOULD NOT in professed egalitarian spirit-have anything to do with caste. This is true, and complex as may become more apparent by the end of this post. The charm of most system is they inherently involve exogamy and endogamy; although remarkably not exclusive Of course people do not wish to loose their sense of belonging, and others want/seek parity and even benign equality, They cannot deal with the idea of being Outcast themselves, but the idea of knowing where they stand as in Tum Konnalo is admirably ingenious don't you think? Most of the are from reasonably superior stock anyways. Besides the Hindus do not need this except for deeper specifics. I lived with a Hindu family for five year, and Baba would say, te vihirintle pav kha'un bhatle gele, but considered me as part of the family. An outsider who had come in, Often people want different things in various aspects of their lives. Even ones (both Goan Hindus and Christians) who may not say out loud---who and what they, or where their antecedents stretch from--have the security of being part of something--a certain way of being, which also involves who one loves, marries, what one eats, how one dresses, etc, etc. Modernity brings a certain levelling, but not always a change in thinking--towards seeing a lot less more, of certain pasts. How much more? I think that depends on the individual, their hurts and personal banshees. Finally, the idea of Jesus and caste hankerings is a peculiar Indian Christian issue. Very often the reminders to Christians of Jesus' Way (say, Love, also Rejection) come from non-Christians. Its admirable (as in full of Love) when done in the right spirit. In 2000 I did a piece, Cherub visitation, where these cherubs are visiting a Dwarpala--essentially wanting to learn from the big entity, and share. Btw, in this vein there is a book, which freaked a lot of Indians--The Unknown Christ of Hinduism.Caste. To my mind, non-Christians often remind Christians of Jesus and Caste, to suggest tangentially. that they expect more from the Indian Christian. Again very admirable when done in egalitarian spirit and laudable (laudatio) venantius j pinto From: Vasant Baliga vabal...@yahoo.com To: Goanet goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: [Goanet] Caste and Creed in Goa (del) How can the caste system be practised by followers of Jesus-it foxes me (del)
[Goanet] CASTE AND CREED
On April,27 Mario Goveia wrote: oblivious both to the caste system and the harm it has caused'' Most of us Goan Catholics may not be oblivious to the caste system but we definitely are to the harm it ( caste system ) has caused. Caste system has done great harm to the physical well being of majority population of India. But what is worse is that it has caused great harm to the psyche of the Indian people so much that I can say that Nazi racism pales into insignificance compared to what most Indian people have undergone in the last millennium or two. Psychically spiritually, intellectually, mentally or call what you wish, most Indian people could be called ''walking dead ''or as they say in America ''dead men walking''. It is not easy to be in the shoes of a Dalit, Could be that people administering to the spiritual needs of the people would have known the magnitude of the problem but they chose to ignore for reasons best known to themselves or perhaps to maintain their ''superiority'' over the others. They say give a dog bad name and it sticks forever. Calumny, slander disparagement, vilification, vituperation derision scurrility etc that have been heaped upon the unfortunate people of India for generation after generations all in the name of religion is in itself the greatest human rights blot that the world has ever seen so far. As Hannah Arendt says: The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil ''' Antonio
[Goanet] Caste and Creed
Mario Goveia wrote: Have either of you stopped to wonder WHY there are reserved categories for lower caste Indians, after millenia of blatant discrimination that continues against them today? Only when we get to the point that most people judge others by the content of their character can you demand that the very systems that have been put in place to ameliorate the accumulated and harmful effects of caste be removed. Date: 26 Apr 2008 11:34:44 - From: jane gillian rodrigues As per Mario's comments. He agrees with Mr. Arjun Singh, and in fact, gives reasons why caste-based reservations in govtmt jobs and govtmt educational institutions must continue. So...no further comment. Mario clarifies: I think your comments clearly illustrate why the caste system has been so difficult to stamp out. You seem oblivious both to the caste system and the harm it has caused. The reservations policy was instituted in an attempt to balance the playing field because higher caste Indians heve refused to give up the advantages and positions of power they blatantly and callously acquired for themselves over thousands of years while keeping the lower castes downtrodden. My call, and that of the other anti-casteists on Goanet, seeks to end the abomination of the caste system. Without the caste system there would be no need for a reservations policy.
[Goanet] Caste and Creed
As per Mario's comments in his below e-mail: He agrees with Mr. Arjun Singh, and in fact, gives reasons why caste-based reservations in govtmt jobs and govtmt educational institutions must continue. So...no further comment. Regards From: Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Goanet] caste and class On 25 Apr 2008 08:25:50 -, jane gillian rodrigues wrote: As per e-mails below, today, many Indians try their best to take full advantage of the fact that they belong to SC/ST and OBC, because reservations for SC/ST and OBC in govtmt jobs and govtmt educational instritutions are increasing, thanks to Mr. Arjun Singh of Congress. Check out all Indian candidates who have got admission through reserved seats (SC/ST and OBC)in govtmt medical, engineering etc. educational institutions and govtmt jobs and ask them, why they have done so, and, why, they have not taken admission in to general/unreserved admission category? Gabe Menezes gabe.menezes at gmail.com Fri Apr 25 04:35:43 PDT 2008 When it suits they cry foul and if not they take advantage of their low Caste. Surely if Caste is to be abolished altogether and we all agree it must, then it must imply a level playing field for all. Many Indians who are smart, complain that they are not admitted because someone who has lower grades belonged to a S/T. S/C or OBC, got in, because the system was discriminatory. Mario responds: (1) It is even more true to say about upper caste Indians, When it suits them they cry foul. Taking advantage of their high caste has been going on for centuries. Have either of you stopped to wonder WHY there are reserved categories for lower caste Indians, after millenia of blatant discrimination that continues against them today? Each person must work towards levelling the playing field first by abolishing caste in their own decisionmaking and encouraging those around them to do the same. Only when we get to the point that most people judge others by the content of their character can you demand that the very systems that have been put in place to ameliorate the accumulated and harmful effects of caste be removed.
