Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular/to Mario (2)
http://www.GOANET.org This month's Goanet operations sponsored by Mrs. Daisy Faleiro To sponsor Goanet operations, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mario I repeat that you commit the naturalistic fallacy. You substitute ought for is in your convoluted thinking. Your logic therefore follows untenable established rules in Western philosophy and possibly in most others too. Informed people (with info accrued from substantial reading and commonsense to do the reading in the first place) would dismiss what you say as the words of an ignoramus especially when you dismiss Catholics who do unpalatable/rotten things as suddenly to be NOT Catholics without saying what on earth they become instead. One illustration is that you say that a fascist cannot be a Catholic. How utterly unbelievable of you to say this. Just google Catholic Fascists and you will see thousands of hits with lots of historical details. By way of further interest, I have only ever come across one other person, and a Goan at that, who cannot distinguish ought from is and like you, he argues to the point where he is left with no one wanting to argue with him any more. He is a sad old lonely man today as no one wants to know him. You could be heading for such a fate too. I have personally seen the memory and artefacts of Franco, the Spanish Catholic Fascist literally adored in a special mausoleum built for him in a huge cathedral dug out of an enormous mountain in Spain. There is a 24 hour vigil in his memory in that shrine/cathedral. It would not surprise me in the least if Franco was canonised as a saint in the near future even though recognised as a fascist all his life. I note you studiously avoided saying that Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden are NOT classified as Muslims. And incidentally, I have followed more recent data on Hitler as an avowed Catholic including details of guidance from German bishops to Catholic soldiers in WW2 to support Hitler's war with all their might because he was a Catholic. This also sounds like the Catholic bishops urging Catholic school children to pray for Kennedy to become the first Catholic President of the USA. This was at the peak time of Kennedy's known substantial womanising when married to Jackie. Perhaps you have an overinflated, unrealistic and naive view of Catholic guidance to its parishioners on morality when it comes to prominent people including the many fascists in Catholic South America. Cornel - Original Message - From: Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular/to Mario (2) --- Cornel DaCosta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mario Just some quick points in reply to yout post. 1. Commonsense by itself cannot compensate for serious reading. Commonsense comes in before, during and after the substantial evaluative reading and not instead of it! Mario responds: Cornel, Reading and regurgitating the opinions of others is no substitute for one's own considered opinions if these are based on recognizable facts, common sense and sound logic.
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
And, according to Jewish tennets any person born of a Jewish woman is a Jew. This rule applies, at present, for Israelli citizenship as well as a basis for immigration threin. AT I hope it has not escaped his attention that, also in Israel, a woman was the Prime Minister of the country and the current Foreign Minister is a woman. _ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
How does Mario's absurd logic make a connection between those Jewish men thanking their God for not making them women and the fact that an incredibly tiny (or virtually insignificant number of Israeli women have made it to the top? Has this guy got nothing better to do or something more intelligent to say? Cornel - Original Message - From: Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mario adds: Perhaps Cornel is not so thankful to be born a man as the orthodox Jews he describes:-)) I hope it has not escaped his attention that, also in Israel, a woman was the Prime Minister of the country and the current Foreign Minister is a woman.
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
Cornel DaCosta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Interestingly, when I was in Jerusalem, by the Wailing Wall, there were Jewish men in long black robes publicly thanking God for (among other things), not making them women/female. Our travel guide explained their prayers --- translated into English for our benefit. That they were born from women (mothers) seemed to have escaped them! Cornel, Some people will believe anything their parents tell them. When I got married, I asked my wife if she wanted me to under go a bris (for her). Mind you, I did not ask her if she wanted me to under go a ceremonial bris. I asked her if she wanted me to do the real thing. Her answer was, God has created you perfect. I guess a bris is for those who are of the sad opinion that that God has created man imperfect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brit_milah Mervyn3.0 In my old age I am beginning to understand that the woman is much smarter than the man. That's right. Much smarter. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: d) The Muslim religion considers women and men to be equals. However, by their actions and strictures if not by their words, women are treated as subservient to men within the Muslim culture that has evolved over hundreds of years in the middle-east. --- Cornel DaCosta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Interestingly, when I was in Jerusalem, by the Wailing Wall, there were Jewish men in long black robes publicly thanking God for (among other things), not making them women/female. Our travel guide explained their prayers --- translated into English for our benefit. That they were born from women (mothers) seemed to have escaped them! Mario adds: Perhaps Cornel is not so thankful to be born a man as the orthodox Jews he describes:-)) I hope it has not escaped his attention that, also in Israel, a woman was the Prime Minister of the country and the current Foreign Minister is a woman.
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
Mervyn Interestingly, when I was in Jerusalem, by the Wailing Wall, there were Jewish men in long black robes publicly thanking God for (among other things), not making them women/female. Our travel guide explained their prayers--- translated into English for our benefit. That they were born from women (mothers) seemed to have escaped them! Cornel - Original Message - From: Mervyn Lobo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 1:13 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular * * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051747.html Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: d) The Muslim religion considers women and men to be equals. However, by their actions and strictures if not by their words, women are treated as subservient to men within the Muslim culture that has evolved over hundreds of years in the middle-east. Folks, If anyone knows of a religion that treats women as equals, please let me know :-) Mervyn
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular/to Mario (2)
--- Cornel DaCosta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mario Just some quick points in reply to yout post. 1. Commonsense by itself cannot compensate for serious reading. Commonsense comes in before, during and after the substantial evaluative reading and not instead of it! Mario responds: Cornel, Reading and regurgitating the opinions of others is no substitute for one's own considered opinions if these are based on recognizable facts, common sense and sound logic. Cornel writes: 2. The evidence about Hitler being a Catholic from birth to death is derived from thorough and well regarded historical evidence and not from just some of the points I drew from the published research. Incidentally, you say that my views about Hitler were discredited but this is only in your imagination and not in terms of extensive rebuttel you received as from Aristo when he absolutely demolished your arguments on devastating logic and facts. Mario responds: I have no recollection of you or anyone else demolishing any of my arguments on Hitler's religious affiliation. Just the opposite. You avoid confronting my arguments and logic with facile claims and digressions. It is pretty obvious that for you, and those whose opinions you read and regurgitate, to continue to claim that Hitler was a practicing Catholic requires you to ignore all that he DID in favor of what he and others have SAID. Being BORN a Catholic has little or nothing to do with whether one is a PRACTICING Catholic. One simply cannot be a PRACTICING Catholic if one OPENLY and CONSISTENTLY and DEFIANTLY and REMORSELESSLY behaves in total opposition to the teachings of the Catholic faith. Cornel writes: However, I would be willing to consider your historically unsupported view that, somehow Hitler ceased to be a Catholic along the way. In turn, in terms of your self asserted devastating logic and facts I should like you to indicate that, according to you, the 'devils incarnate,' Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden are not deemed to be Muslims or Islamo Fascists as you have been inclined to label them thus. Put simply, if Hitler can be rejected as a Catholic, then the same logic should apply to the two Muslims named above. This of course, generates anothe questio---what did they become? Mario responds: To further your agenda against religion in general, you seem incapable of distinguishing between those who are born into a religion and those who PRACTICE their religion. Neither Hitler nor Saddam nor Osama practiced the core teachings of their religions. Cornel writes: I also refer to your absurd state of denial that, (because it is true in most faiths), there are indeed rotten Catholics like the Mafioso and Cosa Nostra that the Church holds in hope for eventual redemption rather than your punitive kind of 'eradiction' of such people from your Catholic list. Mario responds: The Church holds out hope for everyone. What does that have to do with those who choose to PRACTICE vice and OPENLY and CONSISTENTLY and DEFIANTLY and REMORSELESSLY violate the teachings of the Church as the Mafioso and Cosa Nostra members do. Once again you seem oblivious to what people DO and are more impressed by what people SAY - especially those whose goal it is to denigrate religion. Cornel writes: I am inclined to think that, your stance would perhaps make the Pontif blush in embarrassment about your logic and commonsense especially as Hitler was never excommunicated by the Catholic Church despite his vile deeds. Mario responds: It does not require one to be officially excommunicated to no longer be a PRACTICING Catholic. Cornel writes: Finally, in a fruitful discussion with Gilbert Lawrence, I took note of what he said when I referred (much earlier) to Hitler as a Catholic fascist along with Mussolini and Franco. Gilbert preferred to refer to Hitler as a fascist who also happened to be a Catholic. I informed him then that, I was happy with his well thought out definition! Mario responds: No PRACTICING fascist can also be a PRACTICING Catholic, regardless of what you or Gilbert may say.
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular/to Mario (2)
Mario Just some quick points in reply to yout post. 1. Commonsense by itself cannot compensate for serious reading. Commonsense comes in before, during and after the substantial evaluative reading and not instead of it! 2. The evidence about Hitler being a Catholic from birth to death is derived from thorough and well regarded historical evidence and not from just some of the points I drew from the published research. Incidentally, you say that my views about Hitler were discredited but this is only in your imagination and not in terms of extensive rebuttel you received as from Aristo when he absolutely demolished your arguments on devastating logic and facts. However, I would be willing to consider your historically unsupported view that, somehow Hitler ceased to be a Catholic along the way. In turn, in terms of your self asserted devastating logic and facts I should like you to indicate that, according to you, the 'devils incarnate,' Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden are not deemed to be Muslims or Islamo Fascists as you have been inclined to label them thus. Put simply, if Hitler can be rejected as a Catholic, then the same logic should apply to the two Muslims named above. This of course, generates anothe questio---what did they become? I also refer to your absurd state of denial that, (because it is true in most faiths), there are indeed rotten Catholics like the Mafioso and Cosa Nostra that the Church holds in hope for eventual redemption rather than your punitive kind of 'eradiction' of such people from your Catholic list. I am inclined to think that, your stance would perhaps make the Pontif blush in embarrassment about your logic and commonsense especially as Hitler was never excommunicated by the Catholic Church despite his vile deeds. Finally, in a fruitful discussion with Gilbert Lawrence, I took note of what he said when I referred (much earlier) to Hitler as a Catholic fascist along with Mussolini and Franco. Gilbert preferred to refer to Hitler as a fascist who also happened to be a Catholic. I informed him then that, I was happy with his well thought out definition! There are other points I could address but will save them for when I have more time beyond this New Year's eve. Cornel - Original Message - From: Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 4:14 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular/to Mario (2) --- Cornel DaCosta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Selma For a little while, there seemed to be an eerie silence from Mario on Goanet, but I agree with you entirely on your rebuttal of his contention that, religion and culture are separate entities. But then, with much respect, is Mario's view surprising at all? It must stem from his consistent and repeated view that, he relies on commonsense rather than extensive and appropriate reading to inform his thinking! Indeed, from his posts, (and again with respect) it is suggestive that, he has been inclined to think that, his (non-reading) stance is emblematic of a virtue rather than an absolute embarrassment. Minimally, his differentiation between religion and culture and the way he has made his claim for this view is surely a kind of profound 'illiteracy' to portray on the much esteemed Goanet! Mario observes: Cornel, I see you have once again avoided addressing my opinions directly and are using Selma and some puerile psychobabble to TRY and make some points without citing a single word of what I had written previously in this thread. Also, let me observe the obvious - facile and unsubstantiated claims of illiteracy on my part are hardly a testimony to literacy on your part. Secondly, in my never humble opinion, slavishly absorbing and regurgitating the written opinions of others is no substitute for one's own common sense and a logical opinion of one's own.
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular/ to Mario
Hi Gilbert I note your post to Cip. I am pretty sure that the grandmothers and great grand-mothers would be most positive about their progeny who are graduates from borem-vodelem universities because they have been able to see through the fairy tales presented to earlier generations as gospel truth. Most of all, they would be incredibly proud of the fact that, Catholic Goan caste humbug that, many of them had to endure, is being soundly derided as a distinct form of obscene racism with sound unassailable evidence and argument. Incidentally, I have to say that you are being somewhat mischievous---nobody on Goanet has even tried to want us to loose the religious identity too: under the guise of being progressive. I therefore challenge you to provide evidence for the point you make above. Indeed, I for one, have on several occasions told you that the last thing I would ever want is for you to question your faith. Further, and repeatedly, that I respect those who hold their faith sincerely. I have the evidence for this and can readily display it on Goanet. In turn, I want to suggest that all you have is some unauthenticated woolly make-believe in your post to Cip. I hope this will help to start a Happy New Year of necessary enlightenment on a range of issues on Goanet. Regards Cornel - Original Message - From: Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: goanet@goanet.org Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 3:04 AM Subject: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular/ to Mario Hi Cip, What you have outlined are different sides of the same cube. Yet they are a part of a whole and compliment each other. It is like a human body which has several independent but connected parts. You likely heard the story of different anatomical organs of the body arguing who is more important?. Most Catholic Goans (sp. in the Diaspora) have lost their cultural identity (customs) - except for song, dance, food and drink. Many are LEFT ONLY WITH their religious customs (rituals) as reflected at childbirth, marriage and funeral. Now some intellectual Goans - atheists / agnostics / secular humanists - want us to loose the religious identity too; under the guise of being progressive. Yet they insists on wanting to preserve their 'Goaness'. In the above scenario, I often wonder what the primary grade (educated) grandmothers and great-grandmothers are saying about their progeny who are double-graduates from borem-vodlem universities. Kind Regards, GL
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular/to Mario
Is it not that Community is an Independent Entity (independent of Religion and Culture)? And, Is it not that a Culture (not religious culture) dependent Entity? Likewise, Is it not that a Religion dependent Entity? Just a thought Cip Cornel DaCosta wrote: Hi Selma For a little while, there seemed to be an eerie silence from Mario on Goanet, but I agree with you entirely on your rebuttal of his contention that, religion and culture are separate entities. But then, with much respect, is Mario's view surprising at all? It must stem from his consistent and repeated view that, he relies on commonsense rather than extensive and appropriate reading to inform his thinking!
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular/to Mario (2)
--- Cornel DaCosta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Selma For a little while, there seemed to be an eerie silence from Mario on Goanet, but I agree with you entirely on your rebuttal of his contention that, religion and culture are separate entities. But then, with much respect, is Mario's view surprising at all? It must stem from his consistent and repeated view that, he relies on commonsense rather than extensive and appropriate reading to inform his thinking! Indeed, from his posts, (and again with respect) it is suggestive that, he has been inclined to think that, his (non-reading) stance is emblematic of a virtue rather than an absolute embarrassment. Minimally, his differentiation between religion and culture and the way he has made his claim for this view is surely a kind of profound 'illiteracy' to portray on the much esteemed Goanet! Mario observes: Cornel, I see you have once again avoided addressing my opinions directly and are using Selma and some puerile psychobabble to TRY and make some points without citing a single word of what I had written previously in this thread. Also, let me observe the obvious - facile and unsubstantiated claims of illiteracy on my part are hardly a testimony to literacy on your part. Secondly, in my never humble opinion, slavishly absorbing and regurgitating the written opinions of others is no substitute for one's own common sense and a logical opinion of one's own. BTW, since you seem to agree with Selma that religion and culture are indistinguishable perhaps you can address her again to tell the rest of us why Goan Christians have continued to practice the Hindu caste system for so long, why Muslims can have different rules for the modesty of their men and women, and why Osama Bin Laden can proactively attack and kill in the name of a religion that forbids such actions unless for defensive purposes. Cornel writes: He also consistently commits something called the naturalistic fallacy in philosophy, by which, is (or was) is erroneously equated with ought. By way of an earlier example on Goanet, Hitler was, from all the empirical/historical evidence, a practising Catholic. However, it is perfectly possible to argue that, he ought not to have been considered as one and I have no difficulty with such a view when made. However, one can't logically nullify the empirical is/was by substituting this for an imperative ought in the way a seriously uninformed Mario does. Where have such people been? Mario responds: As mentioned above, you have ignored everything I have said in this thread and have now jumped to some other thread and returned to your previously discredited and patently absurd assertions that Hitler was a practicing Catholic, claiming empirical/historical evidence. However, anyone familiar with German and Nazi history would know that you have used the empirical/historical evidence very selectively. A fair and balanced use of empirical/historical evidence would indicate that Hitler actually practiced the exact opposite of the core teachings of the Catholic religion in several major areas. It is pretty obvious that your agenda has been to denigrate and devalue Catholicism by claiming that monstrous tyrants like Hitler were practicing Catholics. With this agenda in mind, you have blythely ignored all that Hitler actually DID in practice - the genocide, adultery, murder, etc. that are anathema to any practicing Catholic - and have focused solely on what Hitler - and other anti-Catholics - have self-servingly and ostentatiously SAID about his pretenses and trappings of religion, like going to Church, etc.
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular/to Mario
--- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We all know that Selma treats us all to reams of balderdash that is not camouflaged at all, and her comments herein are an excellent example. I have defended the right of Goanetters to write anything they like, including their opinions on religion. She apparently has nothing specific to say about the detailed comments and opinions I have offered in this thread. Within this context, her comments above are meaningless. -- Au contraire Mario, in an excerpt from your mail which was included herein previously but which you have conveniently deleted, you postulated that culture and religion are two distinct entities. You further stated that while religion enhances moral righteousness, culture is capable of corrupting it. In my rebuttal, I contest this view. Culture is an umbrella that encompasses the religion of a society. Hence if you contend that culture is capable of corrupting the moral fiber of a human being, so is religion. And by the way, I wonder if you've forgotten in your robust defence of Abrahamic religions, that Islam too is an Abrahamic religion and I'm curious to know whether you extend your defence to Islam as well being the last authority on moral righteousness. Please exclude from your rebuttal all assertions that religion is not corrupt, just our interpretation of it. That argument is too facile and you should know better. selma __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
--- Vidyadhar Gadgil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Go through the mails for the past 15 days by Albert Desouza. At least half of them, averaging one a day, are on religious topics, and are in fact sermons and exhortations about various things. Mario responds: So what? Can ONE guy writing ONE post a day on a topic constitute a flood? Don't you have a delete button? I don't even read his posts unless he uses a descriptive title. I refuse to open posts with such pretentious and redundant and meaningless titles as Albert writes. I have told him so in no uncertain terms, so it is up to him how and what he writes and what titles he chooses. Vidhyadhar writes: There is little purpose in imagining things about people and then getting pleasure from criticising them. I have never said that I do not respect people's right to believe whatever (or not to believe, for that matter). I am just asking whether Goanet is the right forum to post an average of one sermon or homily a day? Mario responds: The way I understand it, there is no religious exception to the Goanet rules. Albert is free to write his posts. We are free to read them or ignore them. A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx. - Ronald Reagan
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular/to Mario
Hi Selma For a little while, there seemed to be an eerie silence from Mario on Goanet, but I agree with you entirely on your rebuttal of his contention that, religion and culture are separate entities. But then, with much respect, is Mario's view surprising at all? It must stem from his consistent and repeated view that, he relies on commonsense rather than extensive and appropriate reading to inform his thinking! Indeed, from his posts, (and again with respect) it is suggestive that, he has been inclined to think that, his (non-reading) stance is emblematic of a virtue rather than an absolute embarrassment. Minimally, his differentiation between religion and culture and the way he has made his claim for this view is surely a kind of profound 'illiteracy' to portray on the much esteemed Goanet! He also consistently commits something called the naturalistic fallacy in philosophy, by which, is (or was) is erroneously equated with ought. By way of an earlier example on Goanet, Hitler was, from all the empirical/historical evidence, a practising Catholic. However, it is perfectly possible to argue that, he ought not to have been considered as one and I have no difficulty with such a view when made. However, one can't logically nullify the empirical is/was by substituting this for an imperative ought in the way a seriously uninformed Mario does. Where have such people been? Regards Cornel - Original Message - From: Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:53 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular/to Mario --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We all know that Selma treats us all to reams of balderdash that is not camouflaged at all, and her comments herein are an excellent example. I have defended the right of Goanetters to write anything they like, including their opinions on religion. She apparently has nothing specific to say about the detailed comments and opinions I have offered in this thread. Within this context, her comments above are meaningless. Au contraire Mario, in an excerpt from your mail which was included herein previously but which you have conveniently deleted, you postulated that culture and religion are two distinct entities. You further stated that while religion enhances moral righteousness, culture is capable of corrupting it. In my rebuttal, I contest this view. Culture is an umbrella that encompasses the religion of a society. Hence if you contend that culture is capable of corrupting the moral fiber of a human being, so is religion. And by the way, I wonder if you've forgotten in your robust defence of Abrahamic religions, that Islam too is an Abrahamic religion and I'm curious to know whether you extend your defence to Islam as well being the last authority on moral righteousness. Please exclude from your rebuttal all assertions that religion is not corrupt, just our interpretation of it. That argument is too facile and you should know better. selma
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular/to Santosh
--- Alfred de Tavares wrote: My dear Santosh, The deliverer of untold Selmas on disputable beds... Before the two of you succeed in puting the fear od God into the infernally oriented heart of our Mario G, Mario observes: I guess you can always fantasize, Alfred:-))
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular/to Santosh
--- Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Santosh, We all know that Mario passes off a lot of balderdash camouflaged in verbosity. The cultural mores of a society are determined by its language, religion, food, art, values and all the other components that together weave the fabric of commonality. It is facile to think that religion is separate from culture or that it is incapable of negatively influencing society. Mario responds: We all know that Selma treats us all to reams of balderdash that is not camouflaged at all, and her comments herein are an excellent example. I have defended the right of Goanetters to write anything they like, including their opinions on religion. She apparently has nothing specific to say about the detailed comments and opinions I have offered in this thread. Within this context, her comments above are meaningless.
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular/to Santosh
My dear Santosh, The deliverer of untold Selmas on disputable beds... Before the two of you succeed in puting the fear od God into the infernally oriented heart of our Mario G, Roland F umpteen other G-netters would you please grant me a boon? I wish to felecitate my friends, you and above mentioned cherisinghly included, with a poem by your uncle-in-law, Manoharai Sardessai on Christmas. I hope you have a colletion of writings. If you do, please see if it contains the longest poem he wrote, Sogle pixi on the inauguration of my Fraternity of Fools in the hall of the Camara Municipal de Salcete, during mid-sixties Ekdom mogan, Alfred From: Santosh Helekar Dear Selma, My concern is religious chauvinism, which is what is ultimately responsible for the insidious communalism that we still see in Goa.
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051747.html Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: d) The Muslim religion considers women and men to be equals. However, by their actions and strictures if not by their words, women are treated as subservient to men within the Muslim culture that has evolved over hundreds of years in the middle-east. Folks, If anyone knows of a religion that treats women as an equal, please let me know :-) Mervyn __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular...
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051747.html Hi Selma: You are just about saying the same thing that Mario is trying to explain; except that you attempt to contend that the glass is half-empty rather than half-full. Dwelling on, and embracing the positive/s will not hurt anyone, but the opposite (negative/s) invariably will. By telling your child dads bad or moms bad...will inculcate ample negativity in your child, but explaining (and demonstrating) that theres a lot of goodness in dad/mom, despite his/her weaknesses your child is more likely on dwell on the good side versus the ill side of it. The same applies to your subject discussion. Wish you a fine day! Joe Vaz __ Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We all know that Mario passes off a lot of balderdash camouflaged in verbosity. The cultural mores of a society are determined by its language, religion, food, art, values and all the other components that together weave the fabric of commonality. It is facile to think that religion is separate from culture or that it is incapable of negatively influencing society. selma --- --- Santosh Helekar wrote: Secularism rejects religious chauvinism of all types. In a secular democracy Abrahamic religions are no better than the Hindu culture of our ancestors nor the Muslim cultural practices that evolved in the Middle East. All religious and non-religious beliefs are equally good or bad. Cheers, Santosh --- Mario Goveia wrote: In my opinion, the positive social and behavioral values of the Abrahamic religions stems from their religious teachings, our antisocial and unethical behavior is individual to each person and stems from our personal weaknesses and cultural influences. _ Over 20 Jobs @ naukri.com ! Choose The Best One http://naukri.com/tieups/tieups.php?othersrcp=4358
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular/to Santosh
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051747.html Dear Selma, My concern is religious chauvinism, which is what is ultimately responsible for the insidious communalism that we still see in Goa. What divides you and me in the eyes of many Goans is the religion of our ancestors even though we might share many views, beliefs, desires and hopes. Secular thinking in the pluralistic sense in which it is enshrined in the constitution of India and blatant intellectual honesty in dealing with religious chauvinism, are the only remedies we have before us. Intellectual honesty demands us to be forthright and brutally honest about all matters, however unpleasant such an exercise might appear to anybody. Even our children today can easily see through false euphemisms, devious word games and bogus analogies. They would rather find out that their father who harbors casteist prejudice or habitually accepts a bribe to render a service on the job, is a bad role model than continue in the feel-good mushy delusion that everything is hunky-dory with him. Cheers, Santosh Selma wrote: Dear Santosh, We all know that Mario passes off a lot of balderdash camouflaged in verbosity. The cultural mores of a society are determined by its language, religion, food, art, values and all the other components that together weave the fabric of commonality. It is facile to think that religion is separate from culture or that it is incapable of negatively influencing society. selma
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular/to Santosh
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051747.html Dear Santosh, We all know that Mario passes off a lot of balderdash camouflaged in verbosity. The cultural mores of a society are determined by its language, religion, food, art, values and all the other components that together weave the fabric of commonality. It is facile to think that religion is separate from culture or that it is incapable of negatively influencing society. selma --- --- Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Secularism rejects religious chauvinism of all types. In a secular democracy Abrahamic religions are no better than the Hindu culture of our ancestors nor the Muslim cultural practices that evolved in the Middle East. All religious and non-religious beliefs are equally good or bad. Cheers, Santosh --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my opinion, the positive social and behavioral values of the Abrahamic religions stems from their religious teachings, our antisocial and unethical behavior is individual to each person and stems from our personal weaknesses and cultural influences. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051747.html No, we can blame non-Goans for that. FN On 19/12/06, Roland Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What about Goan unsocial and unethical behaviour. Where does that stem from? Do we blame the politicians again? -- FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please) http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com http://www.goa-india.org http://feeds.goa-india.org/index.php
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051747.html On Mon, 2006-12-18 at 20:21 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular Mario observes: I have not seen anyone flooding Goanet with religious propaganda, so this comment seems superflous to me. Go through the mails for the past 15 days by Albert Desouza. At least half of them, averaging one a day, are on religious topics, and are in fact sermons and exhortations about various things. Mario observes: Vidhyadhar, the principles of free speech that the Indian and American patriots fought and died for was to protect the inalienable rights of every single individual, even the most obnoxious among us, including those anti-religious elites who have little respect for the opinions of the rest of us gullible peasants. There is little purpose in imagining things about people and then getting pleasure from criticising them. I have never said that I do not respect people's right to believe whatever (or not to believe, for that matter). I am just asking whether Goanet is the right forum to post an average of one sermon or homily a day? But enough said on this matter. If the majority on Goanet feels that it is okay, I will bow to majority opinion and say nothing further on this for now. -- Question everything -- Karl Marx
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051747.html Mario observes: Vidhyadhar, the principles of free speech that the Indian and American patriots fought and died for was to protect the inalienable rights of every single individual, even the most obnoxious among us, including those anti-religious elites who have little respect for the opinions of the rest of us gullible peasants. RESPONSE: I agree in some Countries they gag you Bush accused of silencing critic of Iran policy:- Read it at URL http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article2086667.ece -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London, England
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051747.html --- Roland Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The easiest way to keep Goanet secular without impeding anyone's right to free speech (free as related to liberty rather than to money), would be to require posts related to God and religious beliefs to be charged Rs. 450 (roughly USD10) to be given to a charity I am setting up called Make A Wish Foundation that will give all funds received annually, equally to the following Goan Churches of: Mario observes: Roland, Even though you have the inalienable right to do so, perhaps you should consider refraining from embarrassing yourself by writing abject nonsense? When one pays Rs. 450 or whatever to speak their mind it's called advertising, not free speech. Get it?
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051747.html --- John D'Souza wrote: ...most of our social and ethic behaviour stems from religious values. --- Roland Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What about Goan unsocial and unethical behaviour. Where does that stem from? Do we blame the politicians again? Mario adds: In my opinion, the positive social and behavioral values of the Abrahamic religions stems from their religious teachings, our antisocial and unethical behavior is individual to each person and stems from our personal weaknesses and cultural influences. No mainstream religion encourages antisocial or unethical behavior. For example, the diabolical Goan Christian practice of caste stems from the Hindu culture of our ancestors. The demeaning Muslim restrictions on women stems from cultural practices that evolved in the middle-east centuries ago. When it comes to corrupt political leaders, in a totalitarian system the people in general have litle or no scope to affect changes without social upheaval, as we are seeing in Iran today. In a democracy the politicians serve at the will of the electorate, but if a majority of the electorate is careless then we get the type of political leaders that are being described in Goa. None of this has anything to do with the attempts that crop up from time to time from certain quarters on Goanet that seek to impede and influence the free speech and interests of others.
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051747.html Easier said than done. Because we are all in missionary mode. Including the non-believers :-) LOL. On 18/12/06, JOANITA FERNANDEZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On this occassion I agree with Fred that religion too should have its role on Goanet, however no Goanetter should impose (directly or indirectly) his/her religious as well as non-religion believes on others. On this occasion? Do you know why they call it a bluemoon? You surely won't get the answer here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluemoon -- FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please) http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com http://www.goa-india.org http://feeds.goa-india.org/index.php
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051398.html On 17/12/06, Roland Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The easiest way to keep Goanet secular without impeding anyone's right to free speech (free as related to liberty rather than to money), would be to require posts related to God and religious beliefs to be charged Rs. 450 (roughly USD10) to be given to a charity I am setting up called Make A Wish Foundation that will give all funds received annually, equally to the following Goan Churches of: a) Roman Catholicism b) Gospel Assemblies (popularly known as believers) QUESTION: Does it show that Albert is/could be a Believer ? -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London, England
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051398.html --- Vidyadhar Gadgil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My problem is that this kind of stuff is totally off-topic. I have no desire to be flooded with religious mail, however profound and uplifting, of whatever denomination. If I did, I would join a religious mailgroup. Mario observes: I have not seen anyone flooding Goanet with religious propaganda, so this comment seems superflous to me. Vidhyadhar writes: Doubtless Roland's stand will be criticised on various grounds like free speech. Well, in that case, every time there is a religious post on Goanet, I think I will post an extract from the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Mario observes: Vidhyadhar, the principles of free speech that the Indian and American patriots fought and died for was to protect the inalienable rights of every single individual, even the most obnoxious among us, including those anti-religious elites who have little respect for the opinions of the rest of us gullible peasants.
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051398.html Gabe, definitely shows. Here are the signs: 1) Curse the Catholics, the Virgin Mary and the saints. 2) Have healing services where no one gets healed. 3) Make up tearful stories and call them testimonies or miracles. 4) Preach about God even on social forums like Goanet. Don't feel the urge to follow Him. 5) Assume eternal salvation is yours. 6) Quote sections of the bible but skip the contradictions or inconveniences. 7) Believe that all who do not believe in Jesus will fry in hell. 8) Refer to the bible and say man is superior to woman and gays are not human. If they protest, definitely condescend and backtrack somewhat. 9) If wealthy, say God has blessed you with riches. If poor say you have not believed. 10) Threaten people with sickness and other dire misfortunes to ensure their faith. On 12/18/06, Gabe Menezes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 17/12/06, Roland Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The easiest way to keep Goanet secular without impeding anyone's right to free speech (free as related to liberty rather than to money), would be to require posts related to God and religious beliefs to be charged Rs. 450 (roughly USD10) to be given to a charity I am setting up called Make A Wish Foundation that will give all funds received annually, equally to the following Goan Churches of: a) Roman Catholicism b) Gospel Assemblies (popularly known as believers) QUESTION: Does it show that Albert is/could be a Believer ? -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London, England
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051398.html Dear John, You wrote: Goanet should be kept 'secular' in the sense that topics relating to all religions that Goans subscribe to should be open to discussion.Religion is part of the Goan psyche and thus forms an integral part of the individual...most of our social and ethic behaviour stems from religious values. John D'Souza What about Goan unsocial and unethical behaviour. Where does that stem from? Do we blame the politicians again? Cheers Roland.
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051398.html --- JOANITA FERNANDEZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... however no Goanetter should impose (directly or indirectly) his/her religious as well as non- religion believes on others. Mario observes: Maybe I'm missing something, but how would one IMPOSE his or her religion on us, directly or indirectly, when we are not forced to read a word they write?
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051398.html On Sat, 2006-12-16 at 07:15 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Frederick \FN\ Noronha [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed If we don't want relgion discussions on Goanet, why should we also not ban recipes (too female-oriented), race (offensive to some), caste (offensive to 'lower' castes and embarassing to 'higher' castes), sports (only male-oriented), politics (too disgusting, specially in its Goan avatar), environment (too depressing for most), and even Save Goa (too many pre-election time hidden agendas). Fair enough, obviously stopping all such discussions would be pointless. We all have our pet hobby-horses and want to flog them. But some self-restraint is called for -- in the past week we have had 10 posts on religion which are clearly off-topic, all from the same person. It's not as if they talked about the canonisation of Fr. Vaz or some temple being built in Goa, which would be on-topic. I responded to Roland's mail on this issue, only when we started getting 1-2 of these religious mail a day, which in my opinion is excessive. Why not 1-2 daily mails on the Flying Spaghetti Monster, in that case? Maybe I should start spreading the good word on Goanet. While I consider the advisability of this, those who cannot wait any longer for the true word and complete enlightenment, visit http://www.venganza.org/ -- Question everything -- Karl Marx
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051398.html Religion is one of the dimensions of human nature. Human beings have always been in quest of God. God is drawing human beings to himself. What we need is toget rid of communalism and distorted concept of God. Secular mindedness should not be against religion and God, but against communalism. Jesus was secular, even when he revealed his Father. He did not found a religion in its strict sense. Organized life, embedded in a culture (and cultures are galore), will be our way of living, part and parcel of our being-in-the-world, hence Christian movement has taken diverse cultural faces. The Church is the renewed community, living in time and space (spatio-temporal dimension of humanity is essential). But basically Christianity is a movement of the heart and hence of the way of life towards God, revealed in the Person of Jesus Christ, and towards our neighbour. We should avoid distortions and communalism, which is basically anti-religion... It is also anti-secular, anti-human... We have the right and duty of discussing religion and enlightening our minds and purifying our hearts. May this Forum be uplifting and supportive in every area of human existence! Fr.Ivo da Conceiçao Souza (Holy Spirit Church, Margao, GOA 403601) - Original Message - From: Frederick FN Noronha I disagree. Like other aspects of human life, religion too should have its role on Goanet (though personally I don't subscribe to it). As a journalist, it makes no sense to say we should keep off discussions which a (signficant, I guess) section sees as relevant to them.
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051398.html That's right. I agree with Santosh. Also, posts pertaining to all religions should be equally welcome. On the other hand, my personal view is that near-communal postings, which try to show someone else's religion in poor light should also be discouraged or disallowed for obvious reasons. It gets us nowhere, hardens stands on all sides, lends nothing to the debate, and overall increases bitterness. (I'm not referring to Santosh's general critique of religion in general, which has its place, but the my-religion-is-more-rational-than-yours perspectives which we see in a big way sometimes on Goanet.) --FN On 16/12/06, Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Religious posts should not be banned in this secular public forum. Neither should posts critical of religion. No topic or subject deserves special treatment here. --- Vidyadhar Gadgil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My problem is that this kind of stuff is totally off-topic. I have no desire to be flooded with religious mail, however profound and uplifting, of whatever denomination. If I did, I would join a religious mailgroup. -- FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please) http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com http://www.goa-india.org http://feeds.goa-india.org/index.php
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051398.html Please define the issue as it should be: off-topic or on-topic. Offtopic posts should be discouraged, and used on the rarest of rare occasions. I would be happy to posts of religious traditions beyond Christianity (simply because the latter is already well represented). Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, whatever. Of course, I won't shed any tears for atheism/agnosticism because that is well represented (over represented?) already? It would also be nice to hear women's voices on religion. FN On 17/12/06, Vidyadhar Gadgil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fair enough, obviously stopping all such discussions would be pointless. We all have our pet hobby-horses and want to flog them. But some self-restraint is called for -- in the past week we have had 10 posts on religion which are clearly off-topic, all from the same person. It's not as if they talked about the canonisation of Fr. Vaz or some temple being built in Goa, which would be on-topic. I responded to Roland's mail on this issue, only when we started getting 1-2 of these religious mail a day, which in my opinion is excessive. Why not 1-2 daily mails on the Flying Spaghetti Monster, in that case? Maybe I should start spreading the good word on Goanet. While I consider the advisability of this, those who cannot wait any longer for the true word and complete enlightenment, visit http://www.venganza.org/ -- FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please) http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com http://www.goa-india.org http://feeds.goa-india.org/index.php
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051398.html Dear Fr Ivo, Your post begins by talking about 'religion', then you limit the subject to Christianity, and finally end with general conclusions about 'religion'. Would you also extend the same generosity when you look at all othe religion (and also people who don't fit into organised religions, or opt for no religion)? The limitations of monotheism, notwithstanding? Would you also argue that all founders of religions (other than Christianity too) were secular -- even if this is a contradiction in terms, but let's not quibble over finer nuances now -- but accept the reality that followers of *all* religions are sometimes communal, and this gives the religions they practise a bad name? FN On 17/12/06, Fr. Ivo da C. Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Religion is one of the dimensions of human nature. Human beings have always been in quest of God. God is drawing human beings to himself. What we need is toget rid of communalism and distorted concept of God. Secular mindedness should not be against religion and God, but against communalism. Jesus was secular, even when he revealed his Father. He did not found a religion in its strict sense. Organized life, embedded in a culture (and cultures are galore), will be our way of living, part and parcel of our being-in-the-world, hence Christian movement has taken diverse cultural faces. The Church is the renewed community, living in time and space (spatio-temporal dimension of humanity is essential). But basically Christianity is a movement of the heart and hence of the way of life towards God, revealed in the Person of Jesus Christ, and towards our neighbour. We should avoid distortions and communalism, which is basically anti-religion... It is also anti-secular, anti-human... We have the right and duty of discussing religion and enlightening our minds and purifying our hearts. May this Forum be uplifting and supportive in every area of human existence! Fr.Ivo da Conceiçao Souza (Holy Spirit Church, Margao, GOA 403601) -- FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051398.html The easiest way to keep Goanet secular without impeding anyone's right to free speech (free as related to liberty rather than to money), would be to require posts related to God and religious beliefs to be charged Rs. 450 (roughly USD10) to be given to a charity I am setting up called Make A Wish Foundation that will give all funds received annually, equally to the following Goan Churches of: a) Roman Catholicism b) Gospel Assemblies (popularly known as believers) I have not mentioned Hinduism, Islam, Bah'aai, Zoroastrians, Sikhism and other faiths as their adherents are either not seen on Goanet or better still, spare us their enlightened paths. If implemented, see how these posts just disappear. Like a busy room empties when someone asks an agent so what do you do and he says I sell life insurance.
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051398.html Goanet is secular and will always remain secular. The God did not create any religion. Human Beings are much above to any religion. On this occassion I agree with Fred that religion too should have its role on Goanet, however no Goanetter should impose (directly or indirectly) his/her religious as well as non-religion believes on others. We need use our faculty of understanding to discern and identify different between our believes (religious as well as non-religious) and the Truth, before we impose our believes as Truth. Cip Goa
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051398.html Religious posts should not be banned in this secular public forum. Neither should posts critical of religion. No topic or subject deserves special treatment here. Cheers, Santosh --- Vidyadhar Gadgil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My problem is that this kind of stuff is totally off-topic. I have no desire to be flooded with religious mail, however profound and uplifting, of whatever denomination. If I did, I would join a religious mailgroup.
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Spread the Christmas cheer - even when you're not here! Send Christmas Greetings to your loved ones in Goa. 2006 Christmas - Two Packages available from EXPRESSIONS http://www.goa-world.com/expressions/xmas/ I disagree. Like other aspects of human life, religion too should have its role on Goanet (though personally I don't subscribe to it). As a journalist, it makes no sense to say we should keep off discussions which a (signficant, I guess) section sees as relevant to them. It's not religion that I'm worried about. It's what we in India call communalism (hate-speech, masquerading as religiosity or loyalty to a religion ... actually having nothing to do with it). If we don't want relgion discussions on Goanet, why should we also not ban recipes (too female-oriented), race (offensive to some), caste (offensive to 'lower' castes and embarassing to 'higher' castes), sports (only male-oriented), politics (too disgusting, specially in its Goan avatar), environment (too depressing for most), and even Save Goa (too many pre-election time hidden agendas). If we accept all this, where would we stand? Goanet would not be able to discuss Goa! FN On 15/12/06, Vidyadhar Gadgil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What Roland is saying makes sense (the religious bit, not the political, if that were banned, what would be left to talk about :-). Not that posts on religion are necessarily non-secular, in the sense of being communal -- the recent posts on Jesus were pretty unexceptionable in that regard. -- FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please) http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Spread the Christmas cheer - even when you're not here! Send Christmas Greetings to your loved ones in Goa. 2006 Christmas - Two Packages available from EXPRESSIONS http://www.goa-world.com/expressions/xmas/ On 14/12/06, Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: .. Patriots in India and the US gave their lives for such principles, and many of our own members who live in certain countries have to be surreptitious even in this day and age and may be subject to strict sanctions based on what they say or do. RESPONSE: They can and do, lock one up, in the USA on spurious grounds ! -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London, England Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Spread the Christmas cheer - even when you're not here! Send Christmas Greetings to your loved ones in Goa. 2006 Christmas - Two Packages available from EXPRESSIONS http://www.goa-world.com/expressions/xmas/ --- Roland Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wish this forum banned all kinds of religious discussions. And political too. Dear Roland, If we banned religion and politics, all we'd be left with is Albert's recipe for pinagre and much as I like pinagre I can't stomach it in large doses. Humour aside though, you've brought into play a western sensibility and interpretation of the word secular. In India, secular does not mean keeping God out of government (or internet forums), it means becoming tolerant of all Gods. As an agnostic I don't find Albert's epistles of any interest but I do think he should be allowed to exercise his right of freedom of religion and speech. Would I be offended if someone wrote about Krishna or Mohammed? Only to the extent that I'd have more mails to delete without reading. selma Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Spread the Christmas cheer - even when you're not here! Send Christmas Greetings to your loved ones in Goa. 2006 Christmas - Two Packages available from EXPRESSIONS http://www.goa-world.com/expressions/xmas/ --- Roland Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think Goanet should be used as a pulpit to preach about Jesus. There are other ways to do that. May I point out that setting examples through one's actions is far better than teaching about Him. I wish this forum banned all kinds of religious discussions. And political too. But that is my private opinion and on my Christmas wish list. Perhaps I am unduly influenced from childhood with the Irani Restaurant plaques in Bombay that said Political and religious discussions not allowed. Mario responds: Every now and then this desire to curb the free speech rights of others rears it's head on Goanet, this time ironically couched as a Christmas wish. To me, banning any subject on Goanet that its Goan members may be interested in is a sore spot already, and other than moderating egregious abusive language in the interests of civili discourse, any additional curbs than what the current rules call for would be like a lump of coal in my Christmas stocking. NO ONE FORCES ANYONE ON GOANET TO READ AND PONDER EVERY POST OR OPINION THAT MAY BE PROFFERED. With all due respect in this Christmas season to the restaurant Iranis in Mumbai, whose delicious Chicken curry first began to add the pounds that then became impossible to shed, and where my friends and I engaged in many a religious and political discussion, perhaps I am unduly influenced by the exemplary Indian committment to free speech that I grew up with and then by the very pithy First Amendment to the Constitution of my current country of citizenship, which reads as follows: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Patriots in India and the US gave their lives for such principles, and many of our own members who live in certain countries have to be surreptitious even in this day and age and may be subject to strict sanctions based on what they say or do. In conclusion, I would defend Albert's right to say whatever he wants to about Jesus, just as I would defend someone else's right to say whatever he or she wants about Allah, or Roland's right to ask for curbing the free speech of Goanetters, even while I oppose one or other of such wishes - or ignore them. Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
