Re: [Goanet] Lost tribe of Africa, Meztizos, Anglo-Indians and East Indians
> On Sat Nov 4 10:43:59 PST 2006, Mario Goveia wrote: > > > Bosco, > > As a matter of fact, I do. My evidence comes from > > being very close to the East Indian community as > > well as the the following URL: > > > > http://www.eastindians.blogspot.com/ > --- Bosco D'Mello <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > As one who demands hard facts and logic of > fellow Goanetters, you present a single article > blog (not a website) of a disgruntled, nameless > East Indian as evidence that the British classified > native Catholic Mumbaikars as "East Indians". And > the fact that you are "close" to the East Indian > community does not wash. "Close" is an intangible > distance. All you've done is present rinkydink > evidence. > Mario responds: > >From a recent post by Fr. Jude, "There are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see!" > I'm sorry Bosco, it looks like you need more than an ophthalmologist in this case:-)) This evidence, from the community itself, is about as strong as the evidence that you are what you say you are, or Fred Noronha suddenly discloses that he is. I don't see you demanding "hard evidence" from Fred:-))) > Besides, anyone reading your comments who is familiar with East Indians must be thoroughly amused at your inexplicable intransigence. > The archives will show that Eugene Correa, Sunith Velho and Nasci Caldeira have independantly confirmed my basic information about East Indians, without drawing your demand for legally binding evidence. Selma is confusing them with Anglo-Indians ["pepper-water", oblique references to western identity, bi-racial, etc.] and you seem to know beans about them. > This is similar to the Hindu Mass thread when you did not respond when your friends, Fred Noronha and Roland Francis, posted similar information that you suddenly found questionable when I opined on it. We are still waiting for your answers in that case, since you already told us your questions while insinuating you knew the real story. > > Mario previously wrote: > > > If these are not good enough for you, I'm afraid > > you will have to ask one of the many East Indians > > in Toronto or check with East Indian Fr. Benny > > Aguiar who used to be the editor of the Catholic > > Examiner for several years > Bosco writes: > > I don't want to. I don't need to know. My issue > here is with you passing on adulterated facts (at > this time). You could very well be right! > Mario responds: > a) If you don't want to know then why are you demanding evidence stronger than the evidence that you are a Goan? The information I have provided is far stronger than similar historical evidence about various obscure ethnic communities around the world. > b) I cannot be "passing on adulterated facts" and "very well be right" at the same time. Anyone familiar with East Indians would know I am right. I have also given you credible references to people who provided me with this information, like Fr. Benny Aguiar. Yet, you want to cast aspersions on the information without wanting to seek or know the answers. What's going on here? > Bosco writes: > > But please present factual evidence about historical > issues. Not hearsay and assumptions aka your own > facts! > Mario responds: > I have already provided more information than what is used in tracing the histories of obscure ethnic groups. The problem is you cannot recognize such evidence. > Bosco writes: > > In your rush to participate in every thread on > Goanet you do your best to enforce your reasoning > on everybody else. Which is fine in some cases; not > this one! We need cold hard facts. > Mario responds: > No, WE don't, but I can finally see what's going on here. You just have a burr in your kashtie and have decided to be argumentative:-))) > East Indians and those who know East Indians know that my facts are accurate. Since you said above that you don't really want to know, no one is going to supply you with any more facts. If you need these so that you can continue to be argumentative, you can go look for your own cold hard facts. Talk to some East Indians in Toronto and tell them what I said. > Bosco writes: > > Unless you come up with some evidence re. the above, > you will not hear from me again on this thread as > this is my second and final post. > Mario responds: > Thank Allah that you will no longer embarrass yourself! This is just as well, because you have already admitted that you don't want to know the real answer and are simply being argumentative:-))) > Bosco writes: > > Now, do I expect you to follow the same kind of > reasoning with anything I opine about? You bet! > You've just completed 2 years on Goanet and > I'm certain besides me there are others who > recognize and don't appreciate your style of > intimidation. > Mario responds: > I'm glad SOMEONE is so uninterested in my opinion that they are even keeping track of my Goanet anniversaries:-))) > Regarding you and others who you claim think like you about my "styl
Re: [Goanet] Lost tribe of Africa, Meztizos, Anglo-Indians and East Indians
On Sat Nov 4 10:43:59 PST 2006, Mario Goveia wrote: Mario responds: > > Bosco, > As a matter of fact, I do. My evidence comes from being very close to the > East Indian community as well as the the following URL: > > http://www.eastindians.blogspot.com/ RESPONSE: As one who demands hard facts and logic of fellow Goanetters, you present a single article blog (not a website) of a disgruntled, nameless East Indian as evidence that the British classified native Catholic Mumbaikars as "East Indians". And the fact that you are "close" to the East Indian community does not wash. "Close" is an intangible distance. All you've done is present rinkydink evidence. > If these are not good enough for you, I'm afraid you will have to ask one > of > the many East Indians in Toronto or check with East Indian Fr. Benny > Aguiar > who used to be the editor of the Catholic Examiner for several years RESPONSE: I don't want to. I don't need to know. My issue here is with you passing on adulterated facts (at this time). You could very well be right! But please present factual evidence about historical issues. Not hearsay and assumptions aka your own facts! In your rush to participate in every thread on Goanet you do your best to enforce your reasoning on everybody else. Which is fine in some cases; not this one! We need cold hard facts. Unless you come up with some evidence re the above, you will not hear from me again on this thread as this is my second and final post. Now, do I expect you to follow the same kind of reasoning with anything I opine about? You bet! You've just completed 2 years on Goanet and I'm certain besides me there are others who recognize and don't appreciate your style of intimidation. Best - Bosco T-dot, CA ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Lost tribe of Africa, Meztizos, Anglo-Indians and East Indians
>Mario responds: > > >With all due respect to Mr. Kureekat, I have no doubt >that the Dutch and Danes formed "east Indian >companies" but there was only one registered British >East India Company, which was the original trading >company associated with the colonization of India and >which is the one we are talking about in this thread. > > >Bosco writes: > > > > Mario admonishing Selma in the same message: > > The Dannish trading post was, to the best of my belirf, known as the East Asian Company: Ost Asiatiska Kompaniet. I have been told that the mint they issued is currently the most sought after in the numismatic world and comprise the hidgest bids. AT _ Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Lost tribe of Africa, Meztizos, Anglo-Indians and East Indians
--- Mario Goveia wrote: > > The Indians from the east of India are "east" > Indians, not "East Indians", which was nomenclature > that was concocted by the East India Company to > distinguish the Maharashtrian Catholics from the > Goan and Mangalorean Catholics, hundreds of years > ago. > --- Bosco D'Mello <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Mario, now you are talking history. Would you > possibly have any evidence to validate your above > assertion ? Is this possibly your opinion or > a historical fact ?? > Mario responds: > Bosco, As a matter of fact, I do. My evidence comes from being very close to the East Indian community as well as the the following URL: > http://www.eastindians.blogspot.com/ > If these are not good enough for you, I'm afraid you will have to ask one of the many East Indians in Toronto or check with East Indian Fr. Benny Aguiar who used to be the editor of the Catholic Examiner for several years the next time you are in Mumbai. > Bosco writes: > > Here are some facts: Thanks to Mr. Kureekat (bless > his soul), History Grade 8: East India Companies > were formed by the Dutch and the Danes too (other > than the British) to trade with the East Indies. The > British E-I Co. arrived first, somewhere in > Gujarat. They laid the groundwork for Hastings to > connive with some zamindars, who forfeited their own > rights to the foreigners. Similar to what is going > on in Goa now. > Mario responds: > With all due respect to Mr. Kureekat, I have no doubt that the Dutch and Danes formed "east Indian companies" but there was only one registered British East India Company, which was the original trading company associated with the colonization of India and which is the one we are talking about in this thread. > Bosco writes: > > Mario admonishing Selma in the same message: > > The oblique use you are referring to is your > opinion, not a fact. > Mario observes: > Would I "admonish" Selma and risk being harangued in return by her or one of her admirers?:-))) See how you are haranguing me on her behalf:-))) She took umbrage when I innocently called he a Gulf Goan, which I thought was complimentary. > Actually, I was responding to Selma's allegations that East Indians "obliquely" identified with the west - actually no more than any Goan Catholic does - and some bi-racial background - most East Indians have no bi-racial background. > Previously, I felt she had mixed-up East Indians with Anglo-Indians with her comments that they pronounced "dahl" as "dol" and called "sambhar" as "pepper-water", and claimed that they had somehow assumed their community name for some perceived self-serving benefit. > Actually, East Indians are just like Catholic Goans and Mangaloreans, their sorpotel and vindaloo and roast pork rivals our own and their distinctive almond or cashew flavored marzipans are to die for. Also, the name East Indians was imposed on them by others and it has stuck because no one had the incentive to change it. > Perhaps you will understand this better if I remind you that this is similar to the names D'Mello or Goveia or Carvalho, which were imposed on our families centuries ago by some Portuguese priest or administrator, which no one has changed because there was no real reason to. > > Previously Mario had repeated: > > The name was given to this community by the East > India Company hundreds of years ago and is part of > India's colorful multi-ethnic history, whether you > like it or not. > To which Bosco was moved to comment: > > How many times do you need to repeat the same (Your > opinion & Your fact) content within the same > message? > Mario answers: > Thanks for repeating this once again:-)) Perhaps twice should be enough:-))) > Actually, I think I used it a second time in the context of a comment I was responding to, and since some people are having a hard time with the true facts on East Indians [these are not my opinions]. > > ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Lost tribe of Africa, Meztizos, Anglo-Indians and East Indians
On Fri, Nov 03, 2006 12:09 PM, Mario Goveia wrote: > Mario responds: > > The Indians from the east of India are "east" Indians, > not "East Indians", which was nomenclature that was > concocted by the East India Company to distinguish the > Maharashtrian Catholics from the Goan and Mangalorean > Catholics, hundreds of years ago. RESPONSE: Mario, now you are talking history. Would you possibly have any evidence to validate your above assertion ? Is this possibly your opinion or a historical fact ?? Here are some facts: Thanks to Mr. Kureekat (bless his soul), History Grade 8: East India Companies were formed by the Dutch and the Danes too (other than the British) to trade with the East Indies. The British E-I Co. arrived first, somewhere in Gujarat. They laid the groundwork for Hastings to connive with some zamindars, who forfeited their own rights to the foreigners. Similar to what is going on in Goa now. Mario admonishing Selma in the same message: > > The oblique use you are referring to is your opinion, > not a fact. Mario continues: > > The name was given to this community by the East India > Company hundreds of years ago and is part of India's > colorful multi-ethnic history, whether you like it or not. RESPONSE: How many times do you need to repeat the same (Your opinion & Your fact) content within the same message? Best - Bosco T-dot, CA ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Lost tribe of Africa, Meztizos, Anglo-Indians and East Indians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Largely the rest of India, remains ignorant > about so-called East Indians from Mumbai, as the > only legitimate East Indians are those that come > from the East of India, who never refer to > themselves as such. > Mario responds: > The Indians from the east of India are "east" Indians, not "East Indians", which was nomenclature that was concocted by the East India Company to distinguish the Maharashtrian Catholics from the Goan and Mangalorean Catholics, hundreds of years ago. > Selma writes: > > East Indians use this term to distinguish themselves > from Maharashtrans, which is what their ethnicity > is. The East Indians I have met use it obliquely to > associate themselves with the West be it a subtle > reference to the East India Company, their sometime > bi-racial background or their Western lifestyle as a > result of their long association with the East India > Company. > Mario observes: > The oblique use you are referring to is your opinion, not a fact. I know a lot of East Indians like family, and see them every year. Those I know all call themselves ethnic Maharashtrians. They do not identify with the west any more than you do. Only with Christianity. None of them are bi-racial. Those would be Anglo-Indians. > BTW, why would anyone in India insinuate that they had a bi-racial background in India, where it is looked at askance, unless it was a fact? East Indians are no more bi-racial than you are. > Selma writes: > > I think they should take a page from the Siddis of > India and call themselves, Indians or Maharashtrans > otherwise years from today we may have a few more > ethnic groups emerging, such as Wiproities, > Infosyities or maybe even Callcenterites. > Mario responds: > The name was given to this community by the East India Company hundreds of years ago and is part of India's colorful multi-ethnic history, whether you like it or not. > Unlike your comical examples of "Wiproities (sic), Infosyities (sic) or maybe even Callcenterites", this community has a distinct Maharashtrian ethnic background as well as a distinct Catholic religious background that identifies them. > >From your comical examples I see you are running out of intellectual steam by descending into absurdity:-)) > ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Lost tribe of Africa, Meztizos, Anglo-Indians and East Indians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Dear Mario, Your post was informative indeed and I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. The term East Indians is used frequently among Goans and East Indians themselves, and has some currency in Mumbai. Largely the rest of India, remains ignorant about so-called East Indians from Mumbai, as the only legitimate East Indians are those that come from the East of India, who never refer to themselves as such. East Indians use this term to distinguish themselves from Maharashtrans, which is what their ethnicity is. The East Indians I have met use it obliquely to associate themselves with the West be it a subtle reference to the East India Company, their sometime bi-racial background or their Western lifestyle as a result of their long association with the East India Company. I think they should take a page from the Siddis of India and call themselves, Indians or Maharashtrans otherwise years from today we may have a few more ethnic groups emerging, such as Wiproities, Infosyities or maybe even Callcenterites. Selma --- Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Then, as a young adult, I lived in Bandra where most > of my friends were and still are, "East Indians". > > > Though the term was initially applied by the East > India Company, "East Indians" are no more than > ethnic > Maharashtrians who were converted to Christianity > just > as our ancestors were converted (see below). Get your email and see which of your friends are online - Right on the New Yahoo.com (http://www.yahoo.com/preview) ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Lost tribe of Africa, Meztizos, Anglo-Indians and East Indians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I contrast this with Goan Mestizos, Anglo-Indians > and East Indians. For some reason, even three to > four generations removed from any genetic link, they > never fail to remind us of some obscure link to the > West. Of the three groups, I find East Indians the > most peculiar. East Indians are no more an ethnic > group than the NRIs of today. Their fore-fathers > worked for the East India Company. In time their > names came to Anglicised to facilitate payroll > functions, they learnt to pronounce "dahl" as "dol" > and call "sambar", pepper-water. That does not make > them an ethnic group. It is about time they called > themselves what they really are, Maharashtrans or > Mumbaikars. For some strange reason, they want to > assume an entire ethnicity specific to themselves. > Mario responds: > Selma, You messed up a perfectly admirable post with your patently misinformed comments about "East Indians". > To begin with, your derisive references to "...they learnt to pronounce "dahl" as "dol" and call "sambar", pepper-water." are more correctly applied to Anglo-Indians, among whom I grew up, than East Indians. Besides, pepper-water is a distinct Anglo-Indian recipe - an inexpensive way to make plain rice more palatable. It contains no lentils and is quite different from sambhar. > Then, as a young adult, I lived in Bandra where most of my friends were and still are, "East Indians". > Though the term was initially applied by the East India Company, "East Indians" are no more than ethnic Maharashtrians who were converted to Christianity just as our ancestors were converted (see below). > In the largest Indian Catholic association in Detroit, close to where I live, we use the acronym GEMS for the membership which consists of Goans, East Indians and Mangaloreans. > Here is an essay from a community blog: > http://www.eastindians.blogspot.com/ > Some excerpts: > "East Indians are descendants of the thousands of original inhabitants of North Konkan, West Maharashtra mainly Bombay, Vasai, Thane and Raigad districts, on the west cost of India, who were primarily nature worshippers and who embraced Catholicism during the period 1200 - 1600 due to the missionary work of European Franciscans and Jesuits." > "Many more European and middle-east missionaries had come in Konkan (Thane, Bombay, Raigad, Ratnagiri, Sindhudurg districts) between 1st and 12th century. So even before the 12th century there were thousands of Christians in North Konkan, west Maharashtra. The British East Indian Company designated them with the name 'East Indians' during the Diamond Jubilee celebrations of Queen Victoria in 1887 to distinguish them from the Goan and Manglorean Catholics who came to Bombay in search of jobs and who had similar surnames as Catholics of north Konkan, west Maharashtra." [end of excerpts] > ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Lost tribe of Africa, Meztizos, Anglo-Indians and East Indians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I contrast this with Goan Mestizos, Anglo-Indians > and > East Indians. For some reason, even three to four > generations removed from any genetic link, they > never > fail to remind us of some obscure link to the West. > Of > the three groups, I find East Indians the most > peculiar. East Indians are no more an ethnic group > than the NRIs of today. Their fore-fathers worked > for > the East India Company. In time their names came to > Anglicised to facilitate payroll functions, they > learnt to pronounce "dahl" as "dol" and call > "sambar", > pepper-water. That does not make them an ethnic > group. > It is about time they called themselves what they > really are, Maharashtrans or Mumbaikars. For some > strange reason, they want to assume an entire > ethnicity specific to themselves. > > What is it about human nature that sometimes wants > to > cling onto things to which they have only dubious > links and at other times relinquish links when they > are more obvious. Nasci responds: dear Elisabeth, (I notice Elisa is back?) You are definitely wrong in what you write about 'East Indians'. I have lots of close friends and had neighbors as East Indians. First of all these people do not call themselves that! The Goan Christians in Bandra and Bombay first used the term for them, to distinguish Goan Catholics from the local Catholics of Bombay ancestry. they are the local and thorough indegenous breed of the people who inhabited the Seven Islands of then Bombay and Bassein and around who converted to Catholicism under then Portuguese rule, and later strenghtened under British rule. So we could say East Indians are ethnic Bombayites. the original inhabitants of Bombay, now reduced to a small minority, in Bombay the huge Metropolis. In the last three decades the East Indians and Goans have almost completely integrated, and friendly and lots of inter marriages too! The names are stuck like Gaons talk of Shasticar and Bardezcar etc. They have no more or less links to westerners than Goans have. So be kind to these people; OK? Thank you. Nascy Caldeira Melbourne Down Under. Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Lost tribe of Africa, Meztizos, Anglo-Indians and East Indians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Elisabeth, My friend Charles Camara, a Madganvkar who was at the socant.su.se (I clearly remember his charles.camara email address -- aren't Swedish email addresses so practical!) -- or The Department of Social Anthropology at Stockholm University -- was, I think studying tourism issues in Goa. He came across the Siddi and did a long and deep study on them, after being deeply moved by the subject and its present-day implications. Quite a few Goans have interacted, I would think, with the Siddis (in a strange kind of Uncle Tom-Khapri Agustine kind of way!), without even realising whom these grandchildren of slavery really were. Like most topics which go beyond just the academic, Charles was obviously affected by a deep sense of empathy about this section of the population... who obviously got a raw deal from history, from colonialism, and from us There were, if I recall right, some Jesuits working for them too in their remote jungle home. At one stage, the Government fo Karnataka was trying to encourage some Siddi youngsters into sports, on the bizaarre (and almost racist, it would seem) idea that Blacks make better sportsmen (as witnessed from the powerful West Indian batsmen, who were 'hitting back" at slavery and colonialism with every four and six, as that Marxist-politician-academic Asoke Mitra would argue, or the Kenyan long-distance runners!) So imagine trying to take poor, starving people and trying to make cricketeers of them! Wonder what came about to that... Was also in touch with some young social workers who were considered about the plight of these "lost" people (in every sense of the word!). But I'm not sure how much Charles has published. See [http://shrunklink.com?mnc] I'm sure he would have enough material for at least 2-3 books! But then, publishing and knowing are two different things. One recalls Karen Larsen, a Fullbright scholar who was part of Goanet for a short while, but did publish a thick book, a mix between travelogue-academese-journalistic impressions, after her short stay in Goa Here's something I had posted a decade ago... gosh, do such tracks in cyberspace make one feel old(!)... even if one allowed these guys to just abbreviate my name in a way I don't do myself: [http://www.goacom.org/news/news96/jul/research.html] OPEN QUOTE: "RESEARCH ON GOA" From : GOA NEWS Posted By: Fred Noronha. Sunday, July 28, 1996 Following researchers are currently engaged in research on Goa. The compiler of this list would be grateful if any other details of current Goa-related academic research could be sent in, in the format mentioned at the end: CAMARA, CHARLES (31) working on CULTURE, CATHOLIC CHURCH, HINDUISM, NGOs, MEDIA, TOURISM, DEVELOPMENT, ENVIRONMENT, FISHERFOLK since 1993. Academic work. Interested in building contacts with academics, campaigners and grass-root workers. No e-mail address available. Charles, a research scholar based in Sweden, was based in Margao for many months, and did research on a number of themes, including the Siddi tribals (believed to be of African origin brought in by the Portuguese as slaves, now living in Karnataka) and the problems of Goa's red-light locality of Baina. He is due back in Sweden in August, and is likely to return to Goa. http://www.goacom.org/news/news96/jul/research.html END QUOTE There's another incident-in-cyberspace about the Siddis one can hardly forget. A report by one of the reporters here, which was careless (but not malicious, in my view) with the facts, quickly turned into a public trial of how bad (or not-so-bad) was the bad colonialism Goa witnessed... instead of just looking at the issue that should have been under the scanner -- the plight of the Siddis in India! FN On 01/11/06, Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Frederick, > That was truly fascinating. I wonder if there is any > literature on how they assimilated, which colonial > power was responsible for bringing them to India, > perhaps the Portuguese, if they have any desire to > return to Africa, I doubt it, what sort of prejudice > they suffer, etc. -- -- Frederick Noronha http://fn.goa-india.org 9822122436 +91-832-240-9490 http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/ Free Software gives you the freedom to run, study, copy and improve software! ___ Goanet ma
Re: [Goanet] Lost tribe of Africa, Meztizos, Anglo-Indians and East Indians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. On Tue Oct 31 07:48:34 PST 2006, Carvalho wrote: > About two years ago, my in-laws decided to hire a man named "Augustine" > from Karwar. > He was a Negro. Augustine was so good at his job, we decided to employ his > wife to assist us with > household chores. She was a Negress. Turns out there is a whole tribe of > Africans in Karwar. Response: Selma...allow me to introduce you to an article on the "Siddis of Yellapur" by fellow Goanetter, Themistocles D'Silva, a retired research scientist hailing from the village of Arossim, Mormugao taluka. The fact that there were slaves in his village during the 18th and 19th centuries led him to visit Yellapur, North Kanara. Best - Bosco Pioneering Missionary Work by a Goan Nun The pioneering service by the missionaries of the Daughters of the Cross in helping the Siddis of Yellapur is known to only a few people closely connected with their work. In 1967, Sr. Celine Joseph (nee Eileen Mary de Sousa, Siolim, Bardez), first ventured as a missionary into the jungles of Yellapur, North Kanara. With help and encouragement from the late Bishop Fortunato da Veiga Coutinho of Belgaum (from Margao) and the Parish Priest Fr. Tomas de Tavora (from Aldona) at the Holy Rosary Church in Yellapur, she established a base. It is now Premada Nakshatra Ashrama - a center that offers educational and social services to Siddis. Read the entire article at: http://www.goanet.org/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=147 ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Lost tribe of Africa, Meztizos, Anglo-Indians and East Indians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Hi Selma There was quite a lot about the African descendents in Goa/India on a couple of websites. Possibly one of them was Goanet or perhaps NewDiaspora. There was even a report of a conference about such people. However, I must say that terms like negro and negress are entirely unacceptable today except in rare cases where the historical dimension might be used in a title or the like. Some discussion on this specific issue has been in posts in the last few days. Cornel - Original Message - From: "Carvalho" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 3:48 PM Subject: [Goanet] Lost tribe of Africa, Meztizos,Anglo-Indians and East Indians ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Lost tribe of Africa, Meztizos, Anglo-Indians and East Indians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Frederick, That was truly fascinating. I wonder if there is any literature on how they assimilated, which colonial power was responsible for bringing them to India, perhaps the Portuguese, if they have any desire to return to Africa, I doubt it, what sort of prejudice they suffer, etc. selma --- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: For over a week in January 2006 -- between Jan 10 > and 18 -- > a series of events will highlight the role played by > history > in bringing Africans to India, sometimes as victims > of the > slave trade too. > __ Check out the New Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta) ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Lost tribe of Africa, Meztizos, Anglo-Indians and East Indians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I find East Indians the most > peculiar. East Indians are no more an ethnic group > than the NRIs of today. Their fore-fathers worked > for > the East India Company. In time their names came to > Anglicised to facilitate payroll functions, they > learnt to pronounce "dahl" as "dol" and call > "sambar", > pepper-water. That does not make them an ethnic > group. In the Indian context, East Indians were the early converts (to Christianity) of Bombaim (Mumbai), when that island was occupied by the Portuguese. Bombaim was then handed over to the British as dowry, the name of which was then altered to Bombay. When immigrants from Portuguese-ruled Goa began to enter Bombay, in order to distinguish themselves from the Goans (whom the British also called Portuguese), they renamed themselves "East Indians", purportedly after the British East India Company, in order to demonstrate their loyalty to the British, and as locals of Bombay as distinguished from the Goans. In the American context, the racial designation East Indian was once primarily used to describe people of all of the East Indies, but more recently it is been used widely in the US and Canada as a more precise version of an Indian from India, to avoid the potential confusion from the term American Indian (alternately: Native Americans) who where once simply referred to as Indians (see the Native American name controversy for more information). Asian Indian is a similar alternative term although it is more indicative of the ethnicity of people living in South Asia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indies Cheers, Gabriel. Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Lost tribe of Africa, Meztizos, Anglo-Indians and East Indians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. "Carvalho" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 3:48 PM > > About two years ago, my in-laws decided to hire a man > named "Augustine" from Karwar. He was a Negro. > Augustine was so good at his job, we decided to employ > his wife to assist us with household chores. She was a > Negress. Turns out there is a whole tribe of Africans > in Karwar. > > This tribe is a case-study in anthropology. Having > been transplanted from Africa, the history of which I > am unfamiliar with but doubtless has something to do > with colonial import of slave labour, they have > totally assimilated themselves into India. Augustine > and his wife were Catholics and attended church but > they were also vegetarians and observed certain other > Hindu rituals. Possibly caught between a cultural and > a religious conflict they decided to do what human > beings do best. Adapt and assimilate both. > > Augustine vaguely remembered some African language but > his wife didn't even know where Africa was. They were > Indians and knew of no other land as their own. > Dear Selma, 1. Please see my other post on the correct Konkani synonym of "Negro", namely, "Khapri". 2. Dr. Jose Colaco (based in The Bahamas) has in his website linked to "The Goan Forum" a complete and interesting history of these Indian Negro people to whom you refer. I would suggest that you read it if and when you have a chance. These people are called "Sid'dis" or "Sid'dhis", and I feel that this must be the reason why the "Rajhauns" English-Konkani dictionary lists "xid'di" as one of the meanings of "negro". - The Karwar Sid'dhis, who are speakers of Konkani, even sent a delegation to at least two of the latest worldwide meetings of the Konkani speaking people. Regards. - Jorge ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Lost tribe of Africa, Meztizos, Anglo-Indians and East Indians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Haven't you come across Charles Camara's work on this front? FN On 31/10/06, Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > About two years ago, my in-laws decided to hire a man > named "Augustine" from Karwar. He was a Negro. > Augustine was so good at his job, we decided to employ > his wife to assist us with household chores. She was a > Negress. Turns out there is a whole tribe of Africans > in Karwar. Can't recall when I had written this. Maybe 2005. FN Centuries later, Africa's lost children find their identity in India >From Frederick Noronha PANAJI (Goa), May 26: Centuries after these rare groups reached India, scholars are planning a retracing of the steps of African populations in this part of the globe, some of whose descendents continue living here, often even without knowledge of who their ancestors were or why they came. Tadia, The African Diaspora In Asia, is a network spearheaded by the academic Jean-Pierre Angenot (of Brazil, but temporarily based in Goa) and Shihan de Silva Jayasuriya (UK). For over a week in January 2006 -- between Jan 10 and 18 -- a series of events will highlight the role played by history in bringing Africans to India, sometimes as victims of the slave trade too. Besides a three day international conference on 'the African Diaspora in Asia: Its Past, its Present and its Differences and Similarities with the Transatlantic Diaspora', the ambitious event also plans a number of cultural and other academic programmes. Most colourful possibly would be a planned pan-African 'festival of music, dance and song', with participants coming in from Brazil, the off-Africa island of Cape Verde, Gambia, Tanzania, Mozambique, Reunion Island, and even from African communities settled in Sri Lanka, Pakistan and India. India is home to some African-origin communities in places like Karnataka, Gujarat and Andhra Pradesh. In Karnataka, the Siddis are known to be descendents of former slaves, and still suffer from backwardness and poverty. Planned during this event is a 'festival of African cinema' spread over three days, and a tour to historic Siddi sites along the west coast of India, which long connected South Asia to Africa. 'Siddi' sites include the fort of Janjira, Malik Ambar's tomb, Aurangabad and Ahmadnagar -- all in Maharashtra. In Gujarat, there's the Gori Pir Hill, Khambat and Gir Forest Siddi villages. Besides locations in Hyderabad, there are also the Siddi villages in the Western Ghats forests, Prof Angenot pointed out. Angenot said the plans had received "keen interest". Said he: "It makes me particularly happy to realize that this event will enable us to bring together a wide cross-section of Siddi participants from different parts of the Indian subcontinent, who have not yet met each other." Funding remains a challenge though, he said. -- -- Frederick Noronha http://fn.goa-india.org 9822122436 +91-832-240-9490 http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/ Free Software gives you the freedom to run, study, copy and improve software! ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
